 Okay. Good afternoon. In just a minute here, I'll have each of the people on the panel introduce yourselves. You can say how many children you have. If you know approximately how many people there are that come to your church, you can mention that and where you're from. As far as you that are listening in, we look forward to your questions here. Brother Steve Fisher, are you back here somewhere? Okay. So if you could get these cards that are out on the table outside the door, have them ready. If you have a question you'd like to submit, raise your hand, get a hold of Steve's attention, and he'll bring them up to us then that we can work on here at the end if we have time, which hopefully we will. I'm Ernest Ebe from State College, Pennsylvania. We have nine families that moved in there to be a part of the church and about half a dozen singles, and we've been going for about eight years. Kevin Breckbill, you guys hear me? Okay. Thanks. Kevin Breckbill from Chamber of Christian Fellowship. We have eight children and 85-90 people go to our church. Good afternoon. My name is Andrew Kurtz, my wife Roxanne, and I have seven children, five of which are here, two of which had other commitments, but wish they were here. We are from Granby, Massachusetts, where we live. We serve the greater Springfield area, so we're in the western part of the state of Massachusetts, and there are seven families at the fellowship and a few singles. Good afternoon. I'm Dwight Nisley, and our family lives in New York City in Brooklyn, and my entire family is here. Grateful to have them here. Our entire family consists of three children. We started our marriage a little later than many people do. When I was 38 and my wife was 33, so our window of a family was quite small, and we praise God for three healthy children, and there are all three here. I went to Brooklyn, New York in 1997, when the church plant was already about 10 years old and helped start a school at that point and have been there ever since. And so in some ways, I don't know if I qualify as a church planter, but for some reason they asked me to join this panel. Okay, thank you. And our church is followers of Jesus, and I'm married and have two daughters, one of which is here. I've been involved with the church planters forum now for about eight years. We've probably interacted with somewhere around a dozen and a half church plants during those eight years, and many of them have really struggled. And the number one struggle we've had is teamwork, partnering together as teams, working together. And so we didn't launch these churches. This is just churches that were represented there at our annual gatherings. Some folded up, some nearly folded up, some are going for their second life, I guess, or their third life. And so this is a very important topic. It's easy to find people who are excited about Jesus and excited about winning souls and so forth. But we've got to do this with other folks and work together, then that takes it to a whole new level. So oftentimes people come together and they think, well, certainly if this person's passionate about the Lord and he's passionate about souls, certainly this is somebody that's going to be mature and we're going to be on the same page and work well together and then find out later that, oh, we should have discussed some things here or maybe there was more maturity needed here than what we had when we started. So the first question we're going to discuss today came in just after this last topic and it says, please expound on the concept of preferring your brother. So since Kevin was the one that mentioned that, we'll let him get started and then the rest of you can comment on that as you like. I'd like to start with really a practical thing. I'll let someone else take it. Yeah, so preferring your brother is not an easy thing. I think it's one of the core things of Christianity. It becomes a way of life. It's down to letting someone else talk first. It's down to letting their ideas actually come to the table and take root and not yours, not personally your agendas. It's a deep thing that has to be developed in your character is what I think of when I think of preferring my brother. And then out of that, you know, it's kind of like this. When you think of the Anabaptist world, one thing that they're strong on is they do know how to submit to one another in a broad sense. That's why when Christianity ministries come together and they go to build something, their ability to submit to one another, they can turn something around in very practical ways. And the misconception about not preferring your brother is kind of the concept of not submitting. When you learn to submit, it actually, you get more traction faster and you can actually get things done at a greater speed and a greater confidence. And so that's why I think it's critical that we learn to prefer one another on a local level. We can do that when we go to camp, but can we do that at home in our congregation? And then we can get traction and we need to understand that upside down kingdom concept. So that's my comment to that. Okay, thank you. So one of the common buzzwords in society today is narcissism. So you don't have to read many articles or listen to to many YouTube channels or whatever it might be. And you're going to come across the word narcissism, right? And the scripture has a term for that. And it's selfishness. Narcissism is simply selfishness. And it's a it's a self focus. And I agree with what in a very practical sense of what Kevin said, that we can give ourselves a very simple test like how how much do I prefer others above myself? And one simple test is who is the subject of my conversation? So I think we probably all have had conversations with people where the conversation was all about them, right? It was all about them. And you ever go away from a conversation and realize that they don't know anything about you, but you know everything about them, right? It was a very one sided conversation. Now unfortunately, we probably all have had it the other way, where we've talked about ourselves and and we go away, realizing that we really don't know much about the other person. Alright, that's so simple. That's a simple test that we can give ourselves like how much do I prefer other people above, above myself? Second thing is, I think it's just learning to value other people, or part of this is simply learning to value other people. So when when Jesus was giving this teaching there in Luke, drawing a blank on the on the reference now that where they asked the question is who's who is greatest in the kingdom of God? And he said the Prince of the Gentiles do it this way, but among you should not be so you should do it this way. Jesus then immediately following that teaching, asked this question, he said who's greater? He that sits at the table, or he that serves? And obviously, the obvious answer to that question is the ones that sit at the table are greater. But Jesus says, I am among you as one that serves. So Jesus just created a value proposition there for everyone to Jesus himself valued others greater than himself. So I think I think if we do those two things, we learn to prefer others in conversation, learn to value others will be well in our way to preferring others. I think one of the unique things about God's design, I'm not sure it's my speaker on. There we are. I think one of the unique things about God's design is the very first institution he designed was the family. And perhaps our greatest challenge to preferring one another can be in our families. And it's amazing. It's been said that we are nicest to people outside of our family. But I think in preferring one another, God gives us the opportunity to start with our own families. It's a challenge to me. I think sometimes it's easy as a father, for instance, to think that our voice in our word should be heard above everyone else's. But to what extent does our youngest child feel like I prefer them over myself? And perhaps as we ask God at that first level of family to develop the preferring one another, it's our first and maybe best place to develop that kingdom value. I think beyond that, to the degree maybe that we are able to do it on that level, we can then look at other team members and other cultures and apply it there. Okay, thank you. helpful thoughts. Alright, so we're going to go into three different realms here and talk about those and then we'll have some random questions maybe at the end related to this topic. So the first one is talking about calling. So there may be some people on a team have general interest in helping people spiritually. Others on the team may have specific interest in reaching Muslims, Jews, middle class families, low income neighborhoods, Amish, Mennonites, kingdom seekers, etc. And so you have people coming together, but they may have a particular group that they're interested in targeting. And maybe they don't even realize that before they get together, or maybe they do, but it's something that should be talked about. So people have different calling, some people have a more general calling, some people feel like they have a more specific calling. How can callings contribute to good team relationships? And how can they hinder good working relationships? And maybe we'll start with Dwight. Well, I think one of the good gifts God has given us is a sense of calling. And I think callings provide focus. They provide a clarity of purpose. They give us a sense of direction. And they allow us to go forward in a way that we have our own efforts and wisdom wouldn't be able to have that focus or clarity. And so I believe God does provide that calling. It's interesting, the Apostle Paul would often start out his epistles with his calling. And it seemed like that directed and focused and drove his letters and his life. Yeah, I think callings are something that that do need to be openly discussed. I heard of at least one church plant where there was conflict over callings. The one family felt like the calling was to this certain group to the exclusion of anything else. And the other family involved had had a broader sense of of interest and calling to serve a greater demographic. And it actually did cause conflict. So having the conversations about what our callings are, I think are important in the church plant team forming stage. Early on, those things need to be known and understood. At the same time, I don't think the the callings all have to be identical. I think they should be diverse, as Kevin was talking about, and like Dwight, what you what you mentioned. Obviously, they have to be somewhat logical, in a sense. Like if you are interested in reaching the the unsaved Amish, you're not going to move to Hartford, Connecticut, right? Because they aren't there. But if you want to reach that demographic, then you're going to stay or be in in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, for example. So obviously, citing yourself where your calling is, I think is is a logical step. But then families involved in a church plant blessing each other in those callings, I think are important. I don't think these callings are contradictory or or held in tension. Rather, they should be complimentary, even though they may create a little bit of tension or held in tension. There's a lot of things about church life that is held in tension. And that's that's part of the beauty. Let's keep the mics up. I don't have a lot to say on it. Guess the thing that I had seen over the years is sometimes callings, people can use that as an excuse to be really self centered. And I think it that's what brings the division and then they cloak it under the word calling. So I think that has to be deciphered through when you are have this issue at hand. So that's my thought to it. Yeah, I think on the kind of the negative side about how calling can bring conflict rather than unity. I think sometimes we can look at callings in terms of superior and inferior callings and it can develop into a rating system of value. I don't think that's God's intention or design. I think that can then create kind of a competition also perhaps because of trying to rate which calling should receive greater preference or funding or or focus or value. I think it can sometimes create a disengagement whenever we think it's not our primary calling when maybe God would want us actively involved. Okay, thank you. Moving into the second category here, screening. Should a team screen those who want to join the team? And another question right with that. What are some good questions that team members should ask each other before committing themselves to each other? And maybe Andrew, do you want to get started there? Sure. So yes, absolutely. There needs to be a screening process I think for families and for a church to work together well. There has to be at least some level of compatibility and the screening is part of that that process. So taking the second part like what what are some of those screenings that that should be discussed? I have just a few here. So vision would be one. What is your overall vision for the church, for your family, for your life? Calling, as we were just talking about, I think callings have been important discussion to have. And doctrine, having a doctrinal discussions to make sure there's a doctrinal similarity. And I think another one would be prior church experience. I think prior church experience molds and shapes us and forms us in a way that a few other things do. I sometimes wish I could have a chat with Jesus because somehow he developed the first maybe church planting team with the kind of diversity that would scare me. You have the tax collector and the zealot. Wow that just seems like asking for trouble. And yet I believe Jesus was very intentional in his first team and someday I would like to look through the Gospels and look, try to look at all the conflicts that his team encountered and how Jesus responded to each conflict. One was already mentioned here when there was a desire to be at the chief positions within the kingdom and his response. Once was when his team thought that children weren't really an essential part of their work in ministry. And Jesus said suffer the little children to come to me because actually of such is the Kingdom of Heaven. It would be interesting to really take a look throughout all the Gospels I think and see what did Jesus do with the conflicts of his team. But I think one of the things that is really critical to ask is what hurts do you come with and how thoroughly have those hurts been resolved? And what are you doing to resolve those hurts? Because unresolved hurts of the past have a way of walking with us into the present and even especially in cross-cultural settings bringing responses and triggers that can be really hurtful to pre-believers or believers. And so questions about hurts and conflicts, how they have been, what they have been, to what degree they've been resolved I think are important. You stole my thunder on that one. So my thought was very similar. What's your conflict resolution history? Like how have you been able to work through conflicts? Because if you don't know how to work through conflicts you're going to be the worst person on the team. And to me that's one of the most important aspects. And my other thing I was going to is how easy are you offended? I think there needs to be a development within us. And if you get offended easy you're not going to work well on a team. So that's my two thoughts. So sometimes people have asked me something in relation to teams, what advice I would have, and I tell them to keep their ideals high and their expectations low. Otherwise if you keep both of them high you're going to be very disappointed at some point. If you keep both of them low you're never going to shoot for anything. You're going to be satisfied with something very mediocre. So keep your ideals high and your expectations low. Paul and the sorry the apostle Paul and Barnabas had a very sharp contention the Bible tells us over screening. One thought Mark was qualified and the other thought Mark was not qualified. And this disagreement became so heated that it split the team and they went separate directions. And from what we know they never worked together again on the same team. So sometimes I like to ask teams what options did Barnabas and Paul have other than the one that they chose or the one that they simply defaulted to. So I'm going to let these brothers speak to some options that they or others could have besides just splitting up and heading separate directions. I'm not sure what the best alternative should be. It seems to me like the classic struggle of the giftings of grace and truth. There's times when I'm kind of disappointed in Paul because I'm not sure that Paul would have even been in a position to lead a team if it wouldn't have been for Barnabas. Paul was that bridge. Paul was that connection with the disciples who didn't trust Paul. And he made that bridge available for ministry for Paul. And it seems he must have almost forgotten that now in terms of providing extending some grace to one who failed. But the third alternative I'm not sure how to respond to you. Yeah it's a really good question and I wasn't sure how to respond to it either. You can give some idealistic platitudes like well they should have presented it to the whole body for discussion. They should have talked it through and all that type of thing and maybe they did. But at the end of the day it is interesting to note one thing and that is that if you look at Paul's first missionary journey he went to Cyprus in that journey and Paul never went to Cyprus again because after the Paul and Barnabas controversy Barnabas went to Cyprus and Cyprus was the apostle to Cyprus. So it looks to me like Paul at least honored and respected Barnabas' ministry. If there comes a need to part ways you can at least respect the other person and not set up a dealership in his town. My only comment is if we do end up parting ways to learn to be not to be critical of the other person I think that's the one lesson I think we can learn here. I think it's really easy to find ourselves critical if someone doesn't come or go with us and I think that's not a good representation of Christ. So earlier today brother Barry had mentioned that you know he went to Haiti had this idea that I am better than these people that I'm reaching and it took a long time for him to work on that and get that out of his system and I think that the when it comes to sharp contentions with other people with whom we disagree and and like Kevin mentioned you know looking down on them or despising them that's the kinds of things that we can sense in our own heart how am I feeling for this other person is this really a different calling is this really a different vision or is this something in my heart that needs some some work of the Holy Spirit so yeah there's the platitudes what they could have done one thing just simply recognize if you feel the contention becoming sharp to recognize that this is a thing that will happen in team life as you start working with a team don't be surprised if this comes along and to work on it early on before it gets to the point where there's no way that you can work together with the other person there are sometimes whenever two people or more get together to work on a team and one of them does change either they come up with a new philosophy and new doctrine something that they did not come into the relationship with and so obviously that's one situation where obviously there may be it may need to be a parting of ways if if they were agreed on something and then sometime later one of them decides he doesn't believe that anymore then there may need to be a shift and parting of ways anything else any of you want to say on this one okay walking together different writers and speakers have identified four different stages that happened in many relationships this could be in a marriage it could be in church planning team or even in the workplace so the first stage is the forming stage it's the honeymoon stage the superficial stage the pretend stage and this is a stage where we often overlook things and others and try to make the relationship as smooth as possible and then the second stage is the was sometimes called the storming stage or the disagreement the conflict it's like oh where'd that come from I thought we were having a good relationship here the third stage then is the norming stage this is when team members learn to submit surrender prefer each other and they get past the conflict stage I might just mention there that most relationships in the world just go back and forth between level one and level two between superficial and conflict but the goal is to move past that into a place of preferring each other and and surrendering and submitting to each other and then the fourth stage is when you've got you've moved through that stage to where you can really be productive as a team you're now working together you've been through the hard things and now you're ready to work together and bless the kingdom of God as a group as a team so the question for you as a panel and your experience or is as you've observed others what are some things that can bring conflict in a church or team so I already mentioned one that of bringing in of a person changing partway through and not standing for the same things they did before but what are some others one that I've observed is the speed of which things are accomplished you always have your type A personalities that want to make it happen yesterday then you have the methodical steady people that maybe actually might get more done and they have a method to their way forward and if seen that cause a fair amount of frustration so there is a way to work with it getting out on the table communicating it and I think giving giving a clear picture of what that process of moving moving forward is and looks like helps both sides and I think it's really really important good Andrew yes some some observations of things that have caused conflict moved a fellowship or church plant from that forming stage to the the storming stage are things like like you had mentioned personal trauma unhealed wounds from the past that they get triggered by the the realities of life so in the in the forming stage the focus is on all the things that we agree on but in the storming stage the focus becomes all the things we disagree on and and that's where the where the tension then comes another one is chronic health issues and as if there is if there is a family that has chronic health issues severe chronic health issues they can they can be a burden to the fellowship to the work of the fellowship but they're a necessary part there it is and but knowing some of that going into a situation is good because not only are they unable to carry their own weight they have to have some eight carried for them and so I've seen that be a difficult thing I think one of the big challenges when conflict comes is difference and it can be on so many fronts it and I think maybe the biggest problem is when those differences there's not a platform to openly discuss that maybe even a perception that differences innately wrong and and the discussion of it will only bring conflict I think the reality is not discussing it will bring even deeper and more destructive conflict but some of the differences that I thought about are the differences in giftings and personalities somehow we the lens that we tend to look at it is our own giftings and personality and somehow that seems like the best set of lenses so easily and yet when you've got so many different lenses doing the same thing that can really create a clash differences in the use of money and even in your own upbringing as to how a a good Christian should manage their money that leads into an organization and that can quickly create a tension money can so quickly create tension differing priorities can really create tension but I think there can also be the thing of jealousy and jealousy in other people's giftings jealousy in other people's assets maybe they have a nicer house or a nicer car or a nicer family or a nicer part of the community that you're focusing on there's jealousy can just so quickly bind up the heart and create conflicts I think there can also be the difference of backgrounds and each of us look through the filter of our background and it really colors sometimes our ability to to consider and to value the backgrounds of others okay those are all good so with backgrounds it could be wanting to be like your background or it could be reacting to your background either one can cause problems on money it has to do with spending how you spend your money but also how much you give and a small team there's you you need some money and that can cause some issues if one person's expecting a certain amount of money to be given and another person has a different expectation more than you thought of more things that can cause conflict I was also thinking about a selective use of scripture and I don't know if we can totally get past that but in worship you're going to have some who are going to notice the verse for instance that says be still and know that I'm God and that seems to be the driving verse others are going to say but the Bible says clap your hands all you people shout for joy with the voice of triumph the reality that is that the Bible says both but sometimes all of us may struggle more with a selective use of scripture than we realize but through that particular verse we see the other person maybe as less spiritual or less safe within our worship experience and then there's the thing of differences in personalities one difference in personality could be the be still versus the clapping there could be a lot of differences in personalities so you have people to see everything is black and white and you have people that can just kind of go with the flow and and do whatever and somebody has noticed that if your team has too many people with the black and white it's going to struggle a lot more just because of you know it has to be this way anything else okay if you have more questions back there raise your hand Steve will try to pick up your card and bring it up here so if anybody has a question you'd like to hear us talk about Tamer again while we're waiting the thought that I did have is I think if you want to be successful in life one of the things you need to learn is to be able to work with a team because if you think you can accomplish a lot by yourself maybe probably not but if I take a team to where you're going of they say five guys I can get ten times more accomplished and that's the power behind it not only multiplies by the number of men there it compounds and that's the power of a team so it's really really quick critical to do that and I think that happens in a church life as well okay thank you next question what is some practical advice for how a team can spend less time in the storming stage and move more quickly to the norming or the surrender stage so we we know situations teams churches relationships where this just goes on for years and years and so is there any practical ways to move it from you know this conflict into something more profitable I think in this stage it is really a tough stage to celebrate the diversity of giftings within the body I think it's the stage at which we are wrestling with the challenges in the conflicts of diversity but it's hard to celebrate and yet if God is the giver of those gifts and if we're going to celebrate God and what he has done even where we're facing challenge I wonder if it's not it's not important I I think of people who are facing adversity and still praise God and I don't think that is living in falsehood I don't think that is living a lie it doesn't need to be I think it is choosing to direct the focus at the giver of adversity and I think here too we can look at the giver of the diversity and and worship him and praise him and even look for ways to honor each other even when we are so vastly different spending extra time more time in the forming stage probably pays off taking it slower taking it longer being more thorough is probably very beneficial but I think in the in the storming stage like learning to not fear the storm is important a lot of us probably all of us really do hate conflict really do not enjoy conflict but conflict is actually a healthy part of relationships because there are differences and just learning to embrace that there are differences and not to fear those conflicts will actually help us walk through them more quickly I think because if we're if we're fearing conflict we're going to be avoiding conflict and if we're avoiding those things are causing conflict we're really not solving the problem so spend the time up front embrace the conflict and hopefully you can move quickly through to a place of peace think about Jesus crossing the the Sea of Galilee when you know he's there sleeping in the boat so they were doing ministry on one side of the sea and they're like hey let's take this ministry to the other side you know let's go to the land of the Gatorans there and no sooner do they get in the boat you know transplanting their ministry when there's a storm and Jesus is asleep and they come to him saying like Lord don't you care that we're perishing and the solution to the storm was Jesus speaking his peace into the storm so I think for any storm that we're in that's always the solution is for Jesus to speak his peace into it I just have a simple practical solution that sometimes helps and you have a conflict to you're in the storming stage to write it down when people put it on paper sometimes it helps brings clarity to what the issue actually is and then you can start to address that so just a small practical thing that I found helpful so writing it down repeating it back to the person is this what you're saying that kind of thing asking clarifying questions to make sure you understand what it is that the problem is I used to live in the Midwest and in the state of Arkansas and our elder Bishop brother there was a great model for bringing peace to conflict and I always appreciate various things that I learned from him that one time there was a element in the church that thought the church was not on a good path and they wanted to start another church of a different flavor and he was like well sure let us know where you want to go we'll help we'll help build your building the last thing we want to do is work against the work of the Lord and if we're doing it wrong we might end all we might all end up over your church after a while and there was never a church division that just took care right there there can never be they could never get enough of a consensus together to pull out and do this how can you do that if your leader is saying he's going to help you build a building and might come to your church someday so that was one story from his life I also remember him saying or else his son I forget but they were saying that in a conflict in a conflict in a relationship the more spiritual person in the in the conflict or in the relationship is going to need to lead the way in making peace and so generally you think the person who needs to grow up should be the one you know taking steps in in this but actually needs to be the person who is more spiritual that takes the lead in this an example we have from the Bible on this would be the story of Abraham and Lot when there was a dissension conflict and there was strife between their employees Abraham says well here's the solution and he led the way in that and so I've noticed people have done that over the years they've always been a blessing to me okay another question here from the audience reaching the Amish who already have the gospel for a person who is in the Amish church should he leave for a church that has more of an outreach mentality should he not be making disciples outside of Amish circles as well as staying Amish what if evangelism outside Amish is not promoted the church leadership discourages it should he stay and try to make a difference I think of the apostle Paul he grew up within the Jewish culture and the Jewish culture really actually held out the most critical part of Christianity and the very thing that he himself opposed until his Damascus experience I find it so fascinating how Paul the path out of the synagogues for Paul it seemed like he didn't feel like just because they were on the wrong path that he should automatically leave his roots and take his new and liberated path I find it fascinating how he would make actually his first stop the synagogues and he would be in the synagogues but that wouldn't shut his mouth to the truth and so he would in the synagogues speak the truth and those who heard it were converted frequently eventually he would be run out and when he was run out then obviously I think that put the burden on the Jews then they couldn't say ah he wanted to leave us and instead they would have to realize we chased him out I think that can often be the case I wouldn't want to present that is the only way but I am inspired by Paul's ability to reach his own roots by just continuing to say the truth in their settings of worship until they sent him on his way I don't want to I know that's hard I know that's terribly hard and I'm not saying everybody needs to do that or should do that that's just an example I see from scripture that I think was probably one of the most powerful movements in causing his people to reconsider the path they were on obviously that is probably a personal question to someone here and my thought is the counselor that you're it's counseling you if they're telling you to leave quickly I would find another counselor because I agree with what do I name one out the door just the wisdom of learning to move slowly I was involved with an homage family that left the homage several years back and this is back when I was you know 20 years old and I thought that was the way and I learn a lot from that it would not be my counsel to leave quickly anymore to take your time but yet get good counsel there may be a place for it but do it do it slowly grow you have lots of opportunity to grow your own character within that framework more than you realize yeah not not a lot dad I appreciate the answers of the brothers here but one thing in in our own journey the fellowship there in coming out of a former setting and being where we are now one thing I learned from a brother there that he he drove this point home hard I would say and that is don't trample on the faith of another and he was referring to where we left the home the home setting like like don't trample on the face faith that they do have and and I think that was really really valuable and I think that that would be true even to someone within the homage that's you know leaving the homage even amongst the problems that exist there there are people of faith and they're probably being consistent there's some being consistent to what they know about it they understand like don't trample in that faith so well doesn't answer the question directly I think it is I think it's wise wise advice to someone in that situation yes I agree that this is a personal question what what answer for one person may be different from the answer for another and appreciate what you all said there about taking time to go do this you may have read the story of of St. Patrick who wanted to be a missionary in Ireland and he was 50 years old before he finally got his church's permission to go to Ireland and he would ask them periodically and they would always tell him no and between 50 years old and 80 years old is when he did his work and some people some historians say that there was no missionary who was more successful than Apostle Paul than St. Patrick and so by 50 years of preparation he learned the language he knew the language but he kept working on it he kept preparing because he knew the guy was some day going to take him to Ireland or he expected God would do that and so he kept preparing for that until God finally opened the door and then he had been praying all those years and he had the spiritual forces behind him as well from God and so had an effective work so I just give that as an example if a person leaves a setting before they've learned everything God wants them to learn in that setting they will probably walk with a limp the rest of their life unless they can correct that in the next place that they go and sometimes that happens sometimes a person leaves and they're not ready to leave and they get the next setting and then they learn the lesson and then they can grow and go on from there so God has different ways of doing this and just encourage you to follow the Lord in that and then as far as the mission work this question came up some years ago I believe this was it was an at an Anabaptist Identity Conference and somebody asked this question and and one of the panelists said if your bishop doesn't allow you to pass out martyr's mirrors at the bus stop you time to come talk to me so sometimes we have to be a little creative in figuring out how we can share the gospel in our settings in a way that the church would be okay with it so I just give that as an illustration anything else all right next question here from the audience how important is it to realize that we are only conduit in which spirits flow are we prepared to work together if we don't understand this how important is it to realize that we are only conduit in which spirits flow are we prepared to work together if we don't understand this not sure if I get the full meaning of the question if you think you do go ahead if you ever wrote this wants to give any further clarification or thoughts go ahead do we have another mic back here okay we have another mic back here if somebody wants to comment on this okay check check basically everything in our lives have a spiritual value whether we're whether for good or bad and if we don't realize when we're in conflict with somebody either you know the conflict can be the devil can use even spiritual conflict to destroy us I don't know do I convey the message there or not but okay so many times we see people as objects so because he's not doing something the way I think he is not an object to me that I want to work out of my way rather than recognizing the devil is actually using that to divide our relationship and work against the work of God so do we realize that everything that we do in life has spiritual value whether good or bad that's my thought interesting thought anybody want to comment on that so yes there's a there's a force of darkness and a force of goodness at work in all these relationships we have and I think that's a good point there's it's not just me and him we don't wrestle against flesh and blood there is a spiritual component that said work there as well and especially if we're doing something that God wants us to do then the devil is going to be even more interested in trying to destroy that so just knowing whether we're up against that element as well is good to recognize when we get into any kind of teams whether it's teams within the church or starting a new church okay is there any questions from the audience here that you'd like to just give we have a mic back here raise your hand and you can ask your question up here in the front the meantime yes I have a question so let's say someone has a burden or a vision let's say for the country of Somalia for example and so they're like I want to bring together a team to go and complete this vision right but as they're forming the team they were kind of like the spearhead of the first person at birth that vision so how much authority does that mean they have an extra level of authority over the rest of the team because they kind of were instrumental in forming the team and how much should it be especially let's say they had years of prior missions experience and how much is it we're all equals and how can we do this together okay I think that's a good question let me see if I can summarize it so you have somebody with a vision somebody with experience somebody that wants to make something happen how much should that person be in charge and leading out and how much should be we're all equals on the same level until we appoint someone to be a leader maybe is that right okay I know lots of situations like this it is it is a question of leadership that is the that is the question and and naturally a person that's stepping forward with the vision is naturally a leader right so he's he's putting forth his vision others are plying into it but then you have others that come along and are like supporting filling in the roles and that type of thing and and conflict can can happen if if the person like the initial visionary is not a great leader let's say on his leadership scale of one to five let's say he's a two and they pull somebody in that's a better leader and there are three or four it's going to cause conflict because the person that the person coming in joining the team is actually a better leader than the than the original and that has happened in church plant teams that has happened over and over again so it's it's a really really good question and I'm not sure that I have the answer for it yeah I I think that's something that is really difficult and often happens I my mind goes back to the conflict of the original church planning team that Jesus put together and kind of happened on two fronts first of all it seemed like there were several who really felt they qualified to be at the helm next to Jesus in the leadership of this new frontier and somehow it seemed like they got their mom in on it and their mom came to Jesus to work this out what I find fascinating is the degree of frustration and anger this created in the other disciples which suggests to me that they secretly were wishing for the same thing it seemed like Jesus gave an answer that addressed everyone it didn't just address the ones that took the initiative first to get that position but also the ones who jealously reacted and he gave them a purpose much bigger than being at the helm and that was that ambition of being the servant of all and I just don't know of anyone who argues with the person who is the servant of all and I don't know if somehow in every kingdom endeavor we can really believe and live that maybe it helps with this challenge one of the one of the beauties of the church is the tension between the visionaries and the builders for lack of a term I'm using the term builder the visionary does plant a big picture but the builder helps make it much better and when the two can can blend their strong points it is a thing of beauty it's also a thing of tension but it doesn't have to be an uncomfortable tension it can actually be a good balancing factor so so in your hypothetical scenario there of you're going to Somalia we would hope that there'd be visionaries and builders within that team and they can learn to to respect each other and like Dwight said serve each other many of us have multiple qualities multiple things we have to offer the kingdom so there's there's a variety of visionaries you have some visionaries like Daniel Boone who he's out there blazing a road through the cumberland gap and just tearing up the place and not wanting to spend more than one night at a camp that kind of thing then you have other visionaries like James Madison who is spending four months in a hot stuffy room in Philadelphia drafting the U.S. Constitution and pulling people together and two months into it they still hadn't made any progress and it was after two months of wrangling that they started making some progress and at the end as I understand it after four months they had the U.S. Constitution as we know it today and it passed by one vote so there's different kinds of visionaries and some have leadership as you know their second quality all visionaries are leaders like they were saying but some have administrative giftings in addition to visionary things others might not have that part they might just be really good at blasting holes through mountains and things like that and so sitting down together as a team and working with others who maybe know you we've done that with a few teams already sitting down just talking about things helping them understand each other and trying to figure out some of these leadership questions often it's good if if there's somebody appointed to be in charge at the beginning with an understanding that this may not continue forever a couple years down the road we'll look at this again and and decide whether this person should stay there in the leadership position the head leader or whether somebody else should take up that role okay thank you that's a good question any other questions from the audience my church has done evangelism and we've had oh maybe four or five guys that have been interested in the gospel and come for a little bit and it seems like after not very long they decide that they really don't want to deal with their sin as thoroughly as they need to and they end up just walking away from it all and so I was wondering what or if we were maybe weren't up front with them enough my congregation or if that's what a good thing to address that is first of all I think that will happen that people will decide not to so I think there is an element of learning to be okay with that but then I do think you're onto something of not being up front with people like I think it's it's important to present the gospel in a clear way of what the cost is that the cost is high in order to be a disciple of Christ and there's there's effective ways to do that and in effective ways and I think it's really important to learn the skill of what that effective way of communicating that to and what I think that does then it actually opens the door to attract people that are actually more open to that cost versus the other way around so like I think how we present the gospel actually decides the kind of people that's going to show up at your door so I think put some time into that I think you're probably at a good place but put some time into that quality so if you asked professing Christians in America what the gospel is the majority of them would probably say something along the lines of death burial and resurrection of Jesus and how that affects us as humans and if that's what you're helping people to grasp so that they can be saved then that's probably insufficient I would look at the gospel as being all of the New Testament that's the good news and so there's I think somewhere around 800 commands in the New Testament that we're told to do and so you have to start with some and end up with others at the end I understand that there's there's things that are weightier matters of the law and things that are less weighty but it is good to be up front our fellowship formed five and a half years ago and we had what we thought was some early success bringing people in baptizing them and so forth and only to have the majority of them them turn away very very disappointing in the time but ultimately realizing that God brought us those people to show us who we were there's I think there's an aspect in the early days we were very self-centered there's a lot about us and God brought people to us who were just like that and ultimately God had to do some incredible breaking down in order to put us in a place where we're healthy enough to have disciple healthy people and in a lot of ways we're not even there yet I think I think we haven't really come into that performing stage of ministry yet though I think we're on the verge I do believe and I do hope but I'm not saying that that's the situation in your case but it is something to think about who who are the people we are attracting and why is it and ultimately what can God teach us through those those things a young man that I disciple and I baptized a year ago was arrested for attempted murder and it's just you know that was probably one of the most sanctifying processes that I've ever walked through in my life okay there's another one up here in the front but he's gone for a team to work well together how often should they get together and how much time did they spend together and how often should they how to what level should they be involved in each other's lives so I worked at a non-profit discipling organization in Indiana for a couple years called Fresh Start and there we had weekly staff meetings we also had daily staff meetings with the the men that we worked with on a staff level and then we had weekly staff meetings for men and ladies together I look back on that as just being a really good thing so it does depend somewhat on what kind of work you're involved in but if you're involved in spiritual work I I think you want to have as many as possible I know you can be meeting doubt and that kind of thing and you can get together and pray if you don't have anything to talk about but I I look at that as being really important I was interacting with someone who from our church birthday of church plan in the Bronx and that journey has been a really really hard one just got some input from them this morning and one of the really big pieces of advice was that there's two words a two word sentence mentioned three times said pray together pray together pray together I think sometimes we rely so much on human strategy of whether it's what the larger Christian circle or the evangelical circle the Protestant circle or our own circle might advocate and there's certainly a a really good place for that but sometimes we do a lot of talk in very little praying and it seems like praying does really bring people together like no amount of talking can and so I think that device that was just given to me this morning from that church plant that is facing some huge challenges of just advising that a significant part of meeting together is praying together okay thank you for your attention we're going to give these three brothers a chance to make any final comments they want and then I think the Kingdom Fellowship staff will be up here for announcements my closing comment is this the most effective leadership team in the world was of 12 apostles and when they chose to put the first bishop in Jerusalem they chose someone outside of their circle if there are a number of aspiring starry eyed church planters here just know that the journey is going to be a lot longer it's going to be a lot harder and there's going to be challenges that you can't even think of right now but at the same time I think the rewards are equally greater and the blessing is more enjoyable than what one expects so if it's something the Lord lays in your heart God bless you and move forward with his grace I think of the words that Jesus gave his own team about impacting the world and he said by this shall all men know that you're my disciples by your love for one another and perhaps the greatest impact that our team can make is in an interpersonal relationship of love and they may hear that message louder than anything we say to them one on one and so if we can hear the words of Jesus and realize how much maybe our primary message to those we're wanting to reach is a relationship of mutual love that may I think Jesus was seeing that as that number one thing that's going to convince the world that we are his disciples and that they have something that is worth receiving okay thank you for your participation