 Today we have with us Faheem Khan from the dawn group in Pakistan. Faheem, good to have you with us. Thank you for being with us. Good to be with you. There is a feeling that Pakistan is heading towards a failed state that it lacks legitimacy. Its state apparatus is in functioning. Recent events, particularly after Abbottabad and various other incidents that have happened, seems to confirm to a lot of people that this is the trajectory Pakistan seems to be following. What is your take on this because I don't think Pakistan's state is really that weak? I really don't understand this political science mumbo jumbo about failed state and otherwise. Yes, in my living memory for the last 25-30 years, what I have noticed is that the state of people of Pakistan is constantly going from bad to worse and we are not improving. We have been hit by one crisis after the other. One problem after the other. Especially since Ziaulat days, we really have been in a bad jam. Now, previously the Pakistani establishment, meaning the Pakistani military and the civil military bureaucracy and some of the few rules that they used to accommodate as some form of political government, all that is coming to a nought. The Pakistani military establishment has been cautiously, we use the word security establishment is essentially used to have one good ally, our masters of Pakistan, the US of A. Today it appears that the priority of US of A has changed. Now, the Pakistani security establishment always had its own agenda, its own western interest. Once in clash with the American interest in this region, whether it be Afghanistan, whether it be Iran, whether it be India, whether it be even China, Pakistani security establishment is coming under increasing pressure. Now, suddenly they are becoming democratic, they even approaching the parliament. There is something that they know. No parliament could have ever asked the DGISI or the chief of Pakistani military to come and sort of report to the parliament and pass. When they are coming from all, pressure from all sides and they find themselves increasingly isolated, they want to go back to people of Pakistan. Now, people of Pakistan are literally having a good laugh. What problems do we see for Pakistan? Pakistan is an economically viable state. It's a politically viable state. It's a geographically contiguous and a viable state. So why shouldn't it work? It needs to put a priority right. The security establishment is in a state of crisis and particularly after the Awadabad incident, where it is now almost clear that Pakistan was either, the Pakistani security establishment either failed in its efforts to know where bin Laden was or connived with it and also allowed the Americans to come in and do an operation in their airspace. All this seems to have put the security establishment on the back for, do you think this is good and this will continue? Or do you think this is a temporary issue and the security establishment will again come out on top as it has in Pakistan earlier? To be honest, for people of Pakistan, this is very good. Our security establishment coming under pressure from all sides forces them to come and put some kind of a civil democratic face there. To believe that the Pakistani security establishment is suddenly very weak or it's in a complete state of disarray, that's not correct. What they are trying to do is they are trying to renegotiate their equation with the Americans. Once they are able to do so, then they will be all powerful and all mighty again. The problem is that the way we look at, the way people of Pakistan look at, is that Americans' agenda has drastically changed. Their priorities have changed. So this time around, the very notion that the Pakistani security establishment thrives at, meaning it's hostilities towards India. It's hostilities towards Afghanistan or even so to speak towards Iran. Now Americans are not going to reconcile at least in the future with those priorities of the Pakistani security establishment. So we really don't see a quick fix between the Pakistani security establishment and the American establishment. Basically you believe that the security establishment of Pakistan and the United States, the conflict or the contradiction between the two is real. And it's not going to be easy to fix this. But don't you think that the Americans really need the Pakistanis to get out of Afghanistan, which is really their short term, if not medium term agenda. And therefore, while the conflict or the contradiction may stay, the larger issues really, if the Americans have to get the tailor of Afghanistan, they need Pakistani help and that's why Pakistan really, in the long run, has much more influence over the United States than vice versa. The thing is, Americans wants to get out of Afghanistan. Americans have tons and tons of money. Afghanistan is a tribal society. Once Americans get out of Afghanistan, there will be a million infight in Afghanistan taking place right away. As soon as you remove the Americans or the NATO or the Western forces, do you think the Afghans are going to reconcile amongst themselves very easily? I mean as soon as they start fighting amongst themselves, it serves the Pakistani security establishment interests, Americans, I think. The strategic change in American interest in this region has more to do with India than Afghanistan. The Al Qaeda or the Taliban, Taliban will not really pose in the long term. If you go to the Khabar Pakhtun Khoi and you talk to the elite, the intellectuals, they will tell you that the Taliban are really not interested in a long term fight with Americans. They just want their pound of flash. They want Americans out. Now that is not a big deal for Americans. So for Americans to use Pakistan security establishment as a local watchdog, the leash is going to become shorter by the day. The American need for the Pakistan security establishment of 1980s and 90s is not the same today. Now they said that why should Americans try to strengthen the Pakistani security establishment when they have larger strategic interests with India? Or so to speak they would rather have some kind of accommodation in this region. Now Pakistani security establishment has one powerful tool. They have been tantalizing people of Pakistan with and that is Islam and hostility towards India. Americans in the long term will not want that. Chinese in the long term will not want that. Now if you take that away from the Pakistani security establishment, what is it left with? Increasingly Pakistan economy is in dire states. Pakistan economy is unable to support Pakistan. So increasingly Pakistani security establishment is going to come under pressure and it will continue to come under pressure. That is a very good point that you make. I think that is a very interesting issue that with particularly with the recent killing of Shahzad, the Asia Times online editor. What we saw in a video in which the Pakistani rangers shot down and brought daylight. Pakistani may be a local thug but whatever it is he was shot down in cold blood. All this seems to show that the Pakistani establishment is really coming under some kind of public pressure. Do you think this is in the long run this will lead to a change of equation between the Pakistani people and the Pakistani security establishment? Or do you think after sometime once the furor dies down it will be business as usual? I think that change is already taking place. What you see in form of Salim Shahzad and you know Salim was a very dear friend of mine. He was like a kid brother to me. He had been working for Don Group from 1994 to 2007. I knew him inside out. Now Salim was a very brave journalist. He was constantly under pressure from intelligence agencies. Not only intelligence agencies but also Al Qaeda in Taliban. He was kidnapped and even arrested by Taliban in Halman. Even though he was sort of given safe passage, you know, directed to Halman there. You know, all said and done. Similarly you talked about the Safar Shah, the boy who was killed by daylight in Akrachi Park. Now if you have seen the video on YouTube or on Pakistani channels. You know, the most interesting part is even after those rangers or what supposedly they bought the security force. They shot this 19-year-old thrice. There was no remorse. There was no, you know, on their faces. It was business as usual. So it wasn't something which was done by 6 Jamans on ground. It came down all the way from the top. That has been our business in this country. If you talk to the security establishment they say because the criminal justice system is so weak, we cannot really get indictments from the courts. So it's better to eliminate such criminal element. Now, that thing is changing because by advent of media, free media and press in Pakistan, security establishment intelligence agencies, they are coming increasingly under pressure. Equation is changing. There was a time where there was free flow of money in the name of Afghan war from the United States to Pakistan. And Pakistani security establishment, Pakistani generals, they were having, you know, great time. Now that flow of money is not there. This is increasing checks by the Parliament's audit committee. The old habits die, you know, they don't die easy. These things will continue to happen. They will continue to come under pressure. People of Pakistan has never seen a security establishment as villains the way they see it today. Nobody is there to give them a shoulder. Nobody is there to guard them to the grave. Everybody said, you did it, please go and find your own. Security establishment is also the one which fostered fundamentalist forces in the belief that strategically it would help them strike against India. Do you think this alliance is also coming under pressure or do you think this part of the alliance between fundamentalists and the security establishment will continue in their effort to seek greater legitimacy for themselves? I think this is a predicament for, you know, people like me, you know, liberal, progressive lot in this country. The reason I say that, because there is a genuine struggle. There is a genuine battle, if not a war going on or taking place right now between the rightist fundamentalist element that our security establishment created and the security establishment itself. There is a very, very genuine thing. The Javans are getting killed. The Britishers and colonels are getting killed. The generals, I mean, it's amazing, you know, findings themselves under pressure, under threat. There is a genuine battle going on. Now, I mean, the Pakistani security establishment consider these elements also as their strategic assets. They think once the Americans move out, once the American interest dies out, then their enemy, their contradiction will only be with India and that is the time they'll need them. This is where, this is the battle or this is the war that they had trained or developed or generated these security assets. So they don't want to surrender these assets in a hurry either. So they're looking for the good fund or the bad fund or they're trying to, you know, create that wedge or, you know, they're trying to look for that divide between. Now, we keep telling them there is no such thing as good fund or the bad fund or either it's your fund or you're not a fund. It's very difficult for them to understand. Now, the reason I said that the problem with people like us is now we see them fight a real battle with these hardcore right wing militant elements. Now, should we continue to demolish the security establishment that we have been trying to do for the last 6-3 hours and, you know, not really successful but this time we have an opening. So if you attack them, okay, they come under more pressure or you support them against their battle vis-a-vis the Taliban, vis-a-vis the bad funders, et cetera, et cetera. Times have changed. I am sure for one thing, even the Pakistani security establishment that I've always considered completely insane. Even they may not be insane enough to realize that this monster that they created has come back to bite them.