 Hello, welcome to NewsClick. We're here to discuss today the proposal from the government to have all India NRC. We have with us Mr. Sitaram Yachuri. We're going to discuss the immediate proposal as well as look at the background of where these proposals come from. Welcome Mr. Yachuri. The first thing that comes to mind is when the Home Minister has said that we'll have a nationwide NRC, then who will be a citizen of India is a question. And from when is the cut-off date actually something defined? You see this is something number one we are completely opposed to this. NRC was a specific provision part of the Assam Accord and it was specific to Assam and that is what the Supreme Court under its supervision was carried out in Assam. It is flawed, even what happened in Assam, seriously flawed. But nevertheless it was confined to Assam. Now to extend this to the rest of India is opening a Pandora's Box and is basically an effort to try and intensify the polarization among the people. How would it achieve that? Because you see they have already started what is called the National Population Register which is the NPR. And the NPR by definition the cut-off date is 1951. So 1951 is the NPR cut-off date. Now the NPR becomes the basis for the NRC. Then automatically the cut-off date moves to 1951. As opposed to what the government had proposed in 2003. Exactly. And now for Assam the cut-off date is 71. March 71 which is the date on which the Indra Mojib agreement took place. And that is when you said all these are legal Indian citizens. Now if you have a 51 cut-off date and then the statement yesterday by the Home Minister says that it will be repeated in Assam. Yes. So if 51 is repeated in Assam then they'll be complete chaos. What do you do with with you know some millions of people? Right. So in a sense the citizenship bill is undoing the NRC but then redoing it at a national scale. No but citizenship bill the citizenship amendment bill is a much more dangerous thing. This is a whole package. When you go to see it as a package in the sense that NRC would be there and then the citizenship amendment bill will come saying that we will grant citizenship on the basis of religion for the people who come. Which is number one a complete violation of our constitution. I mean the constitution not only citizenship but all the fundamental rights are given quote irrespective of caste, creed or sex unquote. That is the constitution of India. The citizenship amendment bill is completely violative of that. By saying that the illegal immigrants from our neighbouring countries who are not Muslims and not Jews. Yes. They will be given citizenship but not Muslims. Here more important the Muslims as far as we are concerned. So you are cutting off an entire religious community, a religious minority and remember I mean this is we have the second largest Muslim population in the world which is living as a minority in India under a secular democracy so far. So does the citizenship bill also sort of attack the principle of secularism? Of course it does. You know so how does it help? Who does it help to have this bill? It helps the proponents of Hindu Rashtra who have always for nearly a century down argued that India must be a country which is character is defined by the religious affiliation of its people. And it had a twin expression during the freedom struggle. The Islamic State of Pakistan and Anjana that was one expression the Hindu Rashtra of the RSS was the other. But the Indian freedom movement rejected the concept of Hindu Rashtra adopted a secular democratic structure. The effort since then has been to undermine this secular democratic republic and in its place bring about a set about this Hindu Rashtra or Hindu Twarashtra in today's parlance which is a fascistic you know project. One of the critiques of the NRC when it was conducted in Assam very strong critique was that it's nearly impossible for the underprivileged for the poor to actually have all this documentation at hand. Now if you do it on an all India scale what do you think will? It's going to be chaotic because you see NRC people who come in from neighboring countries out of distress many of them are widows who come in or were widows when they came in because of all the oppression, repression whatever you may call it. No for them to come with documentation. It'll be impossible. I mean the one documentation that they always had which is valid so far but was not valid for the NRC process in Assam was the Panchayats certificate that so-and-so is a resident here. Now they have disallowed that. Now if you disallow that then what else can they prove? They said you bring your heritage certificates from where do they get them they don't have any property they don't have any land so where do they get their certificate from? Okay so the very idea of citizenship is being altered when you say that you are a citizen of India then it means that you live in India the Constitution Article 5 goes by the idea of domicile. Now they're changing it to first parentage and now descent meaning religion. So this shift has has been coming over time. How does one spread the message that there is something wrong with... The message is there in our constitution. This is wrong. Constitution is very clear so either this effort will work, will stand or the Indian Constitution will stand and the Indian Constitution must stand if India has to remain what it is. Logic behind the bill is to say that we are protecting the minorities the oppressed minorities in the neighboring countries. Now what happens actually in Bangladesh when you implement a law like this? Well in Bangladesh there's a huge discussion on and they claim that there are about four crore that is 40 million Hindus there. If this is what you're going to do to Muslims and say that they are not citizens and send them back to Bangladesh then you be prepared to take back this 40 million. It means chaotic. It'll be something almost like the agony that the entire country and people went through during the time of partition. I mean cross a trans migration of people of this colossal order. I mean it is just mind-boggling given I don't know what this government is up to and if you make statements in the parliament as the union home minister so that has its own sanctity and validity and and you make such casual remarks and why should they be in an NRC today for the whole country when you have Aadhar when you have your epic for the non-voter you may say okay Aadhar is there for all the voters you have the epic. So you have these identities and people who have bank accounts and have some financial this thing you have the pan cards no no why there is no lack of documentation or you have your ration cards your BPL cards you know so what is this rational element why there's no justification at all for this NPR except targeting a particular section of our people and intensifying polarization which is it's just playing will play havoc with the country's unity integrity are we going back to the time of partition the two-nation theory well this is this is the this is in the sense in expression of the same logic that if you can have an Islamic state in Pakistan why not India be the Hindu rush this has been the RSS point of view all through at the time of independence when Pakistan was created in an Islamic state was established there the anger that Indian freedom movement rejected a theocratic a fascistic rapidly intolerant Hindu rush of that RSS variety that is what led to the hesitation of Maatma Gandhi in a in a way are we coming back to that same position now? You see instead of moving forward which is what progress is all about instead of advancing in our civilization order we are now regressing the choices between the light of the future or the darkness of the past this government is taking us behind how should India define citizenship should it be by birth should it be by who whether our parents were citizens should it be by any other there's a variety of ways in which you differentiate one is by birth natural citizens number two by your parentage number three when you opted for a citizenship by choice by choice right all these options are constitutionally available and there's no need to change them is there any category of people who you feel is getting excluded of course there aren't you isn't it obvious because we have this huge refugee crisis all over the world and does the citizenship bill does the NRC actually take into account what is happening on a global scale I don't think these are concerns that matter to the present government they are glowing with their ideological blinkers convert the secular democratic Republic of India into a theocratic rabidly intolerant fascistic Hindu rush that is their ideological objective and there is no logic except electoral propulsion which guides them and also and also ideological commitment this is what they committed to and electorally it dig in because the more the sharp of the polarization the greater the consolidation of the Hindutva communal wood bank in India and would something similar happen in our neighbor in our neighborhood in Pakistan in Bangladesh would the right religious right get strengthened in both the every way the reactionary forces will get strengthened and the impact will be on the very people who they claim to they came to represent that is a tragedy one of the things is that many of the people they want to include through the citizenship bill the religious denominations they are also minorities in India so how should the Indian people actually look at this sort of we have to decide either we stick to a constitutional guarantee and fundamental basis that irrespective of your caste creed or sex you are equal and you are a citizen now if you don't recognize that then the treatment of the other minorities even though they may be granted citizenship will also be under question mark so the question mark would be on the minorities in neighbor in the neighborhood as well as those who are in India do you think people will queue up actually seeking to enter India through the borders if this bill actually it will be there whether they'll queue up or not there'll be tremendous pressure we have seen what happened to the Rohingya Muslims from Myanmar and you see I mean the dimensions is something I don't think people are understanding I mean we are talking in terms of millions of people a transmigration and now no country in the neighborhood or any country in the world will be able to actually absorb even if they are willing even if they are willing so you just I mean just opening up a Pandora's box and you never know how to close it once it's opened and that's why that is why this has to be opposed to thumbnail and therefore our party is decided and no NRC beyond Assam beyond Assam which was a special case or the part of the Assam agitation and the asame code and even there actually the government didn't get perhaps the indication they did not get the kind of result that they wanted to see and that's why the BJP state government is opposing this NRC in Assam and at the national level they want to do it again again let's talk about the expense of undertaking these mammoth exercises well the NRC exercise in Assam alone is supposed to have cost about 1600 odd crores that's a closer 2000 a national NRC will be 40 times larger at least at least that is 80,000 to 1 lakh crore of rupees and for what purpose these are all people who are there on your other cards you're there on your epic you're there on your Russian cards you're there on your BPL cards and why you go through this entire thing only to sharpen polarization serve their political objective and their ideological project country cannot pay this price thank you so much thanks for joining us so uncertain benefits and tremendous losses thank you for joining news click and stay tuned