 This is May 22nd. This is the House Education Committee and the Vermont House of Representatives. And we are going to be looking at remote learning and proficiency based learning in the first part. In the second part, we'll be talking about the current state of ed financing. So I wanted to welcome Jester Carolus, who's the division director of student pathways, agency of education and director of I think six different divisions at the agency. So welcome, Jess. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Yeah, so for the record, I'm Jester Carolus, the main director of student pathways, which is comprised of 16s at the agency of education, as well as I'm currently overseeing four sprint teams that are responsible for implementation efforts, really, to continuity of learning. And I was thinking, but I'm happy to take whatever direction the committee would like is whether we could start with if there are some specific questions so that I can really target areas that people are most interested in, because I know that there are maybe some areas that people are more concerned about than others, just to make sure that we have enough time to get into some of those areas. Is that something that would make sense? Sure. And I think one of our issues that we continue to be concerned about is the access to technology, whether it's access to actually having internet access in the area to access to wifi, to access to devices and wondering where the agency is on collecting data that may be helpful to allow us to direct some CARES money or COVID money as money comes due. Sure. So yeah, I think that there's sort of, if we were to break it into kind of two buckets, there is both the access to predictable consistent internet and then there is also the access to devices so that you can be online accessing learning content. So from the perspective of just thinking about the devices, we do every year conduct an annual technology survey that we release to schools and we always have a 100% completion rate in which we collect information around from things related to e-rate and wifi and whether you carry a guest wifi and how far does it reach to whether you're a one-to-one school, if you're not a one-to-one school, how many devices you have, if you are a one-to-one school, whether you let those devices go home or not. And that's just been something that's been in place for some time. And from that, what we attempted to do, it's usually deployed at the end of the year. We early on in the very beginning of April, we're going back into our raw data to use that to help to assist our partners over at PSD to try to get some updated information, particularly around who were the EdTech coordinators as they were first trying to get a sense of how might we expand wifi access to parking lots? I think that was the initial initiative, which was just immediate term, how can we at least provide some expanded access for those families who have low or no broadband access so that they could download materials, access information, talk with their teachers, et cetera. So that was a sort of initial partnership. However, I think what we discussed on Wednesday was the agency, historically and for a reason, does not collect address, like home address level data on students. So, one of the issues is that when PSD was trying to track based on 911 address information where there was low or no broadband connectivity, we didn't have a ready access to that address level data, particular to students to be able to crosswalk. So I think that that's the sort of ongoing problem that we're attempting to solve, which is we collect town information. So we were able to provide an April account of the number of students per town organized under SUSD. But again, that wasn't sufficient information for PSD to do that crosswalk. So on April 6th, we deployed the broadband survey that PSD created through our networks, our weekly field memo, our daily connections to the superintendents. And then we re-released that on April 9th and then again on May 1st. But we had some pretty low return rates. And again, back of the envelope, I think maybe 10 districts completed that information. So what we're attempting to do now is to re-release that. And again, with the help of an coordinated effort with folks at BPA, et cetera, to really get schools to help assist in tracking that targeted information to those individual homes. But there was a decision made that they really wanted families as well as teachers, et cetera, but individuals to complete that information. And there's two avenues. Obviously you don't, if someone doesn't have predictable internet or any internet, you're not going to deploy a survey only on the internet. But we also have used their map where it shows that these are the significantly low, no broadband areas where folks at the agency are going to be calling those districts specifically to encourage the completion of this information to outreach to those families. And each district has its own, in SharePoint, its own page in which they can upload that data so that they can prioritize getting solutions to those specific families with students who have no or low broadband. So that's sort of the effort that's underway. I know on Wednesday there were conversations about it feeling not seamless, but I think that that's also just where we're at. It's, we're experiencing a desperate need to get services to families and that's running up against not having a built-in process in which to collect this information. So I think that's creating that tension. Simultaneously, going back to the devices, we have worked with, we've had some folks come forward such as IBM, Global Foundries, who we've worked with to provide information to them based on a sort of triaging of those districts that indicated that they didn't have one-to-one devices to connect them with those partners who then provided one-to-one devices to those districts for deployment. Additionally, from our continuity of learning plans, what we've learned is that because there are so many, most schools are one-to-one schools in some way, so many of them early on immediately identified that they would need to send these devices home with students, have set up webpages in which families can get tech support from the EdTech coordinators when they need it and have also been able to identify at a granular level those families in which there's no or low broadband. I imagine some of the challenges that you're referring to and collecting this information has to do with privacy. Is that what the challenges are that you're talking about and connecting addresses, the granular data that I know that Energy and Tech was looking for? Yeah, I mean, to a certain degree, as the state education agency, there hasn't been a need and there might not be an appetite for folks to collect address-level data. It belongs, I think, more appropriately at the local level just because you have families who move. So when we have these collections in which we're pulling up information, it would be a level of granular detail that's not necessary for federal and state reporting, but also creates just another layer in which you're having to update and refresh. But I do think that the process of thinking about now and this new world and age that we're in, what will be the way in which we can help to matchmake so that you can have that information and target supports? But it's just not something that we've needed to or been required to collect. So is that what we need to do? Require it? I mean, to a certain degree, and I mean, if you're asking my opinion, I'm not sure what families' appetite is to have a state education agency have their home address. We don't communicate directly with families, parents or students. That's delineated at the local level. And to the degree in which by maintaining that information, there could be risks associated. I think that's a question really best answered by Wendy Geller, who would be able to get into the nuts and bolts of those challenges. I guess the sitting in the seat that I'm in, I just know that the teachers know, they know what the breakdowns are for each of their students. And is there a way to maybe not have the agency getting specifically into the address data, but setting it up so that there was a way for families to once the broader data, not that granular level data was addressed, but something such that if monies were to become available, that families who were in those areas or had identified by locals could be notified. Yeah, I think that feels like a lift that's doable and also role-appropriate. And I think one of the things I mentioned on Wednesday, just I'm sure there's any number of solutions that I wanna invite the field into engaging in, but we know that we, at the beginning of the school year, lots of paperwork goes home to families to sign off on permission to use kids' images, to take field trips, health data, et cetera. And the possibility of simply being able to add three questions around your broadband access and devices would be something that could be collected in one go with all the other information that we collect, that schools collect at the outset to prepare and plan for surveying students. So I think that that's something that's absolutely doable. Okay, I'd like to continue that conversation. Other questions that I see from the committee? What's here? We're gonna hear from Peter Conlon. So this is perhaps a remote learning adjacent question. Just curious to know if you've tracked or been able to notice any decrease in interest for dual enrollment or early college since people weren't sure of what the opportunities are gonna be. Yeah, I don't, I'll be honest. My every sort of waking, breathing moment of my life since March has been in sort of this continuity of learning work. And so I do know that we are already engaged in starting to stand up the partnership agreements for dual enrollment. We know that folks have been enrolled in requesting access and starting to indicate interest for summer dual enrollment. But I would suspect, again, I can go back and I can do a scan so that you're working from something other than my impression. I would suspect though that we've just seen a decrease because I think we've seen just a global impact in how people have reacted to school closure. We know that there have been increases in interest in home study. But I will say that one of the things that we are well positioned to do is because of our scale up of VTVLC, the Vermont Virtual Learning Cooperative which has historically offered dual enrollment online through partnerships with the colleges that we can sustain enrollment and dual enrollment even in a remote or online and blended learning environment. If I could just follow up on that different topic because of continuity of learning, have you been able to shift yet from being kind of reactive to being proactive and planning for the possibility of a fall with no in-person instruction? Yeah, so at the outset, I think on March 20th I had constructed what I'm calling sprint teams. So they're cross divisional, cross agency teams that just knowing that we needed to move quickly. And so those teams were separated to address both the need for addressing online learning in a remote learning environment, but also analog as well as thinking about big pieces like assessment, thinking about what was developmentally appropriate. And what we've been trying to do is occupy two spaces. So being in a reactive mode, but also being forward thinking. So the continuity of learning plan assurance document was really developed to be able to be leveraged as also a self-assessment tool of implementation as we pivot into planning for a healthy strong start. So we pivoted about three weeks ago into planning and starting to design some of our technical assistance to sort of key in where some of the work that they've been doing right now as you're thinking about how are you sustaining learning over time is also about learning what is working, what hasn't worked as we're thinking about planning for the new year knowing that it's not gonna be doors open and everybody walks in, right? So much of the research that the teams have been engaged in are doing SCA scans. So other state education agency scans working with national organizations and trying to pull those things that maybe would be most appropriate for Vermont as well as well as what we're finding are pretty much the general strategies that people have been using as you're thinking about. We know that the foundation is definitely gonna be starting from what is the health guidance, right? Because if you're putting everything must plan from how do we sustain and maintain community health student health and then designing from there. So there's gonna be some guidance coming out pretty shortly around how we might best leverage summer but summer safely as well as then that summer planning is situating you for a healthy strong start where you've got sort of like a stackable approach to the guidance as well because fiscal planning strategic fiscal planning is going to be a huge piece of that so that how do you create the conditions for learning so that you can sustain continuity of learning. I'm just gonna apologize right now because you might start to hear of my dog in the background so because he wants to be let out for the 3000 time today. But so we've pivoted quite some time ago but it's also that game where we're still waiting on some guidance from the feds. We know that we haven't quite figured out what we're going to do with the CARES funding that's coming in and a lot of that creates these dependencies that makes a little tricky to get information out without having to walk it back as people start planning. Thank you very much. Sheridan Austin. Hi Jess. I don't know if you're the person to ask this so just let me know if this isn't your bandwidth but I'm just wondering with the national assessments now being canceled or delayed. I'm just wondering how students' learning is going to be assessed. Yeah, I mean. And is it till next spring or could they do an error? You know, I mean just as one point of data. I mean, I'm just wondering how you're going to be able to track that. Yeah, well, so you're right. I mean, one, I would just say that there is an assessment team in which people have probably far more expertise than I when speaking to this. But I would say that differentiating between some of those state level assessments, which often are assessing the school's success in serving students versus the battery of assessments that are available. So we know that through the education quality standards is an expectation of local comprehensive assessment systems. And so we have been, we have a couple pieces of guidance out already that we put out some time ago. We actually have a couple updates that will are targeted for release next week around how do we use those assessment strategies and tools available to us in a remote learning environment to track and assess student learning as well as design how we deliver our instruction to best meet the needs of students. So looking at, you know, obviously clearly leveraging, do you hear this guy, leveraging formative assessments, performance assessments, which is a tricky thing. How do we leverage performance assessments in remote learning environments? We've certainly been looking at different strategies for things like career technical education in which you know that there are assessments that are pretty heavily performative in which you've got students who are engaging and learning and how do you balance that. I will say that most of the national guidance coming out really is about, you know, can states commit to next spring's assessment and then just start planning to that. But again, I would say that talking to the assessment team at the agency would would probably give you more information than I'm giving you right now. OK, thank you. Oh, I think you're muted. Sure. Sorry. Seeing no further questions. Jess, would you mind staying in the room? We're going to hear from Mary Newman, who's actually been out working in the field. And it may stimulate some questions that you could answer as well. So I want to welcome Mary Newman, who is the incoming head of school at the Sharon Academy. And she can talk to us a little bit about remote learning and intersection with proficiency based learning, I believe. Yes, exactly. So again, my name is Mary Newman. I'm currently the assistant head of school at the Sharon Academy incoming head of school. And I'm here to talk about the ways in which proficiency based learning really are conducive to a remote learning environment. So I'm going to start with just a couple of reminders. I'm sure everybody is aware of this. But I think it's important to set the stage by talking a little bit about the ways in which proficiency based learning is fundamentally different from a Carnegie unit system in which students pass courses by doing a combination of things, showing up, participating in class, doing homework, performing at a certain level on assessments and behaving appropriately. So grades generally are a conflation of all of these things. And they vary hugely depending on what a teacher cares about. And so students experience all the time, teachers valuing skills or behaviors differently from each other, and school being, at worst, a game of figuring out which teacher cares about which thing. And then, of course, another thing about the Carnegie unit system is that teachers move from one lesson to another based on a predetermined timeline. And the expectation is that a certain amount of content is covered in a given year. So the two major principles of proficiency based learning that distinguish it from Carnegie units are one, an emphasis on skills that are treated separately from each other, and that proficiency in those skills is clearly articulated in rubrics or commonly agreed upon scoring criteria. And the other major principle is an understanding that students learn different skills at different rates. And therefore, it's the evidence of their proficiency in those skills that determines whether they should move on, not a number of hours in a classroom. In Vermont, the guidance around what those skills or graduation requirements are, as you all know, has leaned heavily towards transferable skills or 21st century skills, critical thinking, problem solving, communicating. So while teachers still and probably always will have a certain array of content they wanna cover, topics they feel are the best vehicles for teaching those skills, there's a tremendous amount of flexibility built into Vermont's education quality standards, transferable skills, in terms of how teachers approach their content. What is evidence? So the most important thing about a proficiency-based system of teaching in this moment is that it clarifies what a student needs to learn by separating out the different skills that are being targeted and making it possible to practice, give feedback on, track, and assess each skill. So now I will recap our current reality, what we're all living through right now and what it looks like in the field. School buildings are closed, not all students have access to devices, as Jess explained, and or high-speed internet. Teacher availability is all over the map. Some students are struggling just to get through each day and while school work may be a distraction from the challenges they're facing at home, the support system they used to have to get their work done is gone. Some students are having intense, non-academic learning experiences because of their circumstances. So they're taking care of siblings, they're helping their families stay afloat financially. And so completing the school work that's being assigned is just not feasible. Some students have the resources both internal and external to pursue their own interests or to take school work to a higher level. They're actually welcoming the flexibility in their schedule and the chance to learn something new. So as you know, the closure of schools has made the discrepancies among learners even more stark. It's amplified the inequities of school. Students who needed support most now have the least access to it. So the need to continue educating our children when being physically together is not possible has put a tremendous strain on all of the traditional school structures. At the Sharon Academy, we've made it kind of our number one priority to be a support system for our students who are experiencing a huge range of social and emotional needs while at the same time trying to keep learning as viable and meaningful as possible. So in doing this work, we as a school have found that proficiency based education is the single most helpful structure we have in place right now to meet those objectives, supporting them in their social emotional health and continuing learning. By being able to talk to students about the skills they need the most practice with and then having the flexibility to think about what evidence of proficiency can look like we can do two things. We can maintain true equity even when the pandemic has exacerbated the inequities in the larger system and we can imagine how to plan for the long-term educational effects of out of school learning. So I'm gonna take a minute and like walk you through a real world scenario an actual students situation right now. This is a 12th grader, we'll call her student A who was on track to graduate when school closed to in-person learning back in March. Before the closure, she knew what she had to complete sorry, she knew that she had to complete her classes and she knew that she had to complete her senior exhibition which is our capstone project by the given deadlines in order to receive a diploma in June. This is because she needed the evidence of proficiency that that coursework and the exhibition would provide in order to meet our PBGRs which are seven transferable skills. This is a student who depends heavily on in-school structures to do her work. Her home environment was not conducive to getting schoolwork done before COVID and she was depending on certain spring activities at school like team sports, in-school community service opportunities in order to meet those requirements that she had left. So with school closed to in-person learning all of the structures that this student relied upon to be successful were no longer available. I'm talking about study halls, access to teachers while at school, a clear daily schedule with time built in to focus on different tasks, adult support available when needed, community service opportunities that we provide at school and exhibition presentation day, a day that's actually on our calendar for kids to do their capstone presentations were gone. So when school closed, this student's life became consumed by taking care of multiple younger siblings while her parents worked. Not only does she not have all of the structures of school but she also has significant added responsibilities to her family that prevent her from being able to access synchronous classes. The teachers started holding in the first couple of weeks throughout the school day. Even I think accessing a device and an adequate broadband during non-school hours was extremely difficult for this student. That's the impression we get when we talk to her. So in a truly proficiency based system, it's the skills that matter most, right? Not how long it takes to master them nor the content that's used to access them. If we believe that communicating effectively is truly an essential skill and we believe that there are multiple ways to do it, then we have to be willing to accept evidence of a student's ability to do that thing even when the evidence looks really different from the task we'd originally assigned. So it is entirely possible that this student will have a series of conversations with her advisor over the phone about her experience managing life and learning during COVID that will be evidence of this student's ability to communicate effectively. Meanwhile, her math teacher who knows that math is a great strength of hers is aware that she actually needs more evidence of critical thinking in order to meet the graduation requirements. So math teacher is considering things that he can do that may be different from the original calculus assignments to help her get evidence of that skill. The plan she had to take a spring sport in order to fulfill the physical wellness requirement has been replaced by things that she can do from home. The requirement we have actually is physical, emotional and social wellbeing. So she's working with our school counselor on the phone weekly to talk about what wellbeing can mean in the current circumstances. So considering what the student is contending with every day, the weekly conversations about how to access wellness resources and even things like exploring Maslow's hierarchy of needs are like meaningful and they're possible for her when so many other things aren't. So the point is that proficiency-based learning makes clear what the required skills are and the criteria for being proficient, but at least in Vermont, thankfully, it leaves wide open the way that evidence of proficiency can look. I can think of a bunch of other kids at school, other instances when we've looked at a student at where they are on their path towards meeting our graduation requirements. And because we know the student well enough to have an idea about what resources they might have access to right now, we have been able to change what the evidence they need to produce looks like. We've basically done a student, I mean, we basically have a student who's done the equivalent of an apprenticeship with an electrician, but not a single assignment since school closed. So we have to look at our proficiencies and think about what the student is doing right now that could be evidence. Most likely he is demonstrating critical thinking and problem solving, but we have to hold up what he's doing against a rubric and see if it counts. So I just wanted to make one last point about the content itself and what really matters. And this gets to something that was just being discussed, which is have we pivoted to thinking about next year as opposed to just trying to manage this year's learning? And I think in our conversations about thoughtfully planning for the very real possibility that some of our learning will have to be remote, we really have to ask ourselves what learning matters most? Like what is it we believe our students need right now as it relates to their skill development and knowledge of content? How do we help students dig in and make sense of the information about what's going on in the world right now in meaningful ways that won't add to their emotional stress? That's a delicate balance to strike right there. But COVID-19 is changing people's lives all over the world and it's gonna impact us and these kids in the future and we have to help students unpack their experience and then we have to think about how to help them think about the dynamics of the crisis socially, economically, politically, mathematically via fiction and nonfiction reading and writing. You can use data analysis and statistics use of math to make predictions. It's unavoidable and a content that I think can really be leveraged as we imagine how to do school next year to make the learning they have to do potentially from home and without their resources more effective. So I'll stop there. See what questions you've got. I think you're still muted. Sorry. I usually don't mute myself. I see Kathleen James has a question or a comment. Thanks so much for that really interesting testimony. I've been wondering and maybe you can comment on it a little bit. How do you see this impacting the college readiness of this year's graduating seniors? It is such a powerful question but what's even more powerful right now which is potentially getting in the way of me answering it is what seniors are experiencing emotionally right now. It is really, I'm sure I'm stating the obvious but it is really astounding how unable so many of them are to think kind of beyond the, the unfortunateness of their circumstances. In other words, not having a prom and not having graduation. I think that proficiency based teaching in general has more power to prepare kids better for going to college because of the skill thing. In other words, you can talk to children about what it means to persevere, to manage your time, to collaborate. You can just articulate the things you know they're gonna need in college and you can show them what they can do to practice those things. So in a remote learning, if you just like turn that into remote learning, what are they doing now? Well, they are practicing the art of self-directed learning because, and now I'm gonna get TSA specific, we've changed our assessment policy to we call it do no harm. And it's basically any work they do during this time can only serve to improve the grades that they get. And we have this wacky calculation that we use to calculate grades from their evidence. Any evidence they produce right now, if it's not meeting the standard, it doesn't bring their average down. And what we're doing is we're extending this school year into next year, so they'll have the whole month of September to continue to build on this year's grades because it seems strange to expect them to improve their achievement until we're back in a situation where they have at least some more of those structures. So even if we have to have half of the school come on each day in order to practice safe social distancing measures, at least kids will have study halls, at least they'll have teachers to ask in person. So anyway, that is all to say that that we've developed this assessment system to give kids some, to be more flexible in the evidence they produce this spring, the seniors are experiencing full tilt what it means to have to get your work done when you don't have somebody holding your hand. And what makes it meaningful for them is when you can talk to them about the fact that they are right now, every day when they sit down to do their math, that is an example of self-direction. And you can instantly apply that to a college scene where they don't have as many structures. Thank you. Yeah, sure. Thank you, Kayla Belder. Thanks, and thanks for your testimony today. It's really interesting and engaging to hear specific kind of examples of how your school is encountering, encountering the challenges of remote learning and proficiency-based learning. It sounds like it's varied for all your students, but for some of the students, some of whom you described who may be having a life experience that's requiring self-directed learning, they may be in the case of somebody who's having an almost a crunch of ship with an electrician, clearly some real opportunity for deductive reasoning and all kinds of things there, right? And, but it does seem that therefore, if I'm understanding that correctly, the teacher's role is almost more helping to assess and helping to sort of map whatever it is you're doing onto this rubric so you can, and it's an extraordinary time. I do have a little worry that the instruction from the teacher, how do you, for some students, you're kind of saying, hey, you're learning from life and I'm gonna help you map that onto this rubric, but if this persists into September and beyond, I do, I get concerned that with such a new system is this, people are gonna start to say, where's the instruction exactly? So not meant to do criticism, but voicing a concern I can see. Yes, well, I think that a couple of different things are happening right now and one of them is that when we are encountering a student, the way it works is that you realize that a student hasn't produced any work, right? You look at all the charts that we have for keeping track of kids and the assignments that they have or haven't done and then these kids rise to the top and we're like, we haven't heard from this kid in weeks or in days. So we call the family and we see what's going on and we find out that the kid is doing this electrician work. Then what we can do is we can have a conversation with the student and potentially the parent who is the mentor and you are, you're treating everybody kind of like a flexible pathways coordinator for now and you're saying, okay, what is the student doing? And then you're holding up the rubric and then what you're doing is you're saying, if you can show me, if you, the student, can show me, the teacher, the following things over the next week, if you can write a reflection, if you can describe a problem that you solved, then you'll be progressing on the rubric and if you do A, B and C, then you'll be meeting on the rubric. So I think what's really important to understand is that it's not just sort of checking off that a student has evidence, it's figuring out what a student is doing that could be a guided process of meeting the standard, meeting the proficiency. And I think in terms of the long-term and this concern that I think is really, really valid, we may be faced with thinking of next year, like teachers, thinking of teachers next year more as flexible pathways coordinators or personalized learning plan facilitators than we ever have before, because if we know that we have to shut down to in-person learning in November, then we need to be designing things going into that, that we know these students with limited access can do and then we're working with them to see, are they starting, are they progressing, are they meeting? So I think it's this real combination of in an emergency situation, looking at what kids are doing and saying, is this a skill that we can assess? But in a proactive situation, it's thinking, okay, we know how many kids are really gonna struggle to do synchronous math every day. So instead of doing synchronous math every day, how are they gonna build on their math skills? Those are just some thoughts but I think your concern is really an important one. Thank you. Yeah. To Jess, we definitely hear from people in school districts that are struggling with implementing proficiency-based learning and proficiency-based braining. I'm just wondering if there's some opportunity to use this time to help some of those struggling school districts to feel better prepared? Yeah, I think Mary touched on one that I think was important and certainly has been part of our guidance is this idea of identifying critical proficiencies. We know that because proficiency-based graduation requirements are determined locally, we have a broad spectrum of how people have identified those and certainly we hit the outer reaches of that spectrum. So folks who are in the hundreds and folks who are in the single digits and I think that this is an opportunity for us to think about implementation. And again, I don't wanna put words in Mary's mouth but I think she's highlighting that we have a really policy-friendly state, probably one of the friendliest in the nation when it comes to student-centered learning so that personalized proficiency-based education that allows for flexible pathways to graduation but there is benefit in thinking about can we create some greater architecture so that we have some consistency across the state in thinking about what is achievable? So we have like an implementation issue to contend with. Less of a need for new policy, more of a need to focus on implementation and providing some of those consistent strategies across the board. And it's a delicate balance because we are a local control state. And so how do you do so in such a way that can serve the needs that we I think have been brought into stark relief in this state while also honoring the unique nature of communities. So looking at, okay, how do you get to identifying critical proficiencies? How do those become the backbone so that you're developing a coordinated curriculum that can occupy multiple spaces, be in multiple contexts, not be so reliant on this as an in-person in the building situation but rather it allows for the unique and novel scenarios and contexts and environments that students might find themselves in. And it's hard to say that there is an opportunity here when you know that people have struggled. So there's a tension there that you don't want to seem celebratory but I do think that this has provided an opportunity for people to strip away some of the noise to get down to what's essential, to think about those essential practices to start to take in and own that technology and being fluent in a digital world is not a choice. It's a right and it requires and it's a responsibility and it requires our vigilance. I think to the question that Representative Elder posed around the role of instructors we are going to have to also see and allow for some flexibility in how we define the roles of educators, even thinking about how we group and schedule them because we have opportunities when you're in say an online and blended learning space, a lot of energy that goes into behavior management, classroom management, just managing bodies sort of falls away to some degree when you're in an online learning space and the role and expertise required to be an effective facilitator and guide in instruction who provides that targeted feedback to allow a learner to take ownership and agency of their own learning while also speaking to standards, expectations, consistency because it's not about you get rid of content. It's just that in our lives right now we are touching on any number of content areas but we're not speaking or instructing to one content. So taking that interdisciplinary approach, thinking about how we can leverage different skill sets of educators as they nurture students to those learning opportunities. This is all an opportunity that we have to sort of break out of some of the boundaries and barriers that I think have prevented genuine implementation of student-centered learning in this state. So as we look at CARES money and money that must be tied to COVID-19, is this an area to consider just in terms of professional development? Yes. So your professional development, where everybody has a little budget but this I'm seeing as very COVID related in helping with remote learning and perhaps putting in a little PBL into this as well. Yeah. So, Luisa, Mary and Jess. Go ahead. Oh, I was just gonna say, absolutely but I wouldn't wanna lose the thread of saying in order to engage in this, we need to make sure that also every teacher has predictable, reliable broadband so that they can be connecting and engaging in this. So to the degree in which, you know, the infrastructure issue is important in order to allow for the opportunity for that professional development. I do want to just add that we have had pretty significant growth in teachers engaging in professional learning even just through VTVLC. We have over 2000 educators who have enrolled or completed online learning and training to instruct in a remote learning environment which we want to continue. We have identified even just within our flexible pathways appropriation predictable avenue to continue to fund that so that doesn't fall onto local districts without adding any additional monies into the existing ed fund. So I think those structures, we want to create a space but I do think that there has to be something for at the local level to also design those opportunities and sustain those opportunities so that they can be responsive to the community. Thank you. Other questions? Just Mary, while we have you in the room, proficiency based grading. That's one of the things we had a lot that were a little more comfortable with proficiency based learning but we're struggling with proficiency based grading. What's the grade of use? Here's what we have done. We have somebody on our staff who is extremely adept at figuring out math, how to apply a mathematical value to a piece of evidence that is either meeting or exceeding the standard. So it's a complicated algorithm that we've actually shared with a couple of other schools that have asked. And what it does is every time a student produces a piece of evidence that is either meeting or exceeding, it has a number value attached and over the course of the school year, those numbers are averaged per standard. So at the end of the school year, a student can look at all of the standards they've done work on over the course of the year and see an average score on that standard. And then what we've done is taken that and turned it into a letter grade because we did extensive research with 50 different colleges and universities to which we most frequently send our graduates. And we asked them, this took place over several years and we asked them what they thought and they said, yeah, it's better when we have a language we can understand. If we don't, we put it into a language that we can understand. So if you don't give us a grade or a GPA or a class rank, we'll do it for you. We didn't want that. So we developed our own algorithm. It's very cool because it's as close to truly proficiency based as we can possibly get. It doesn't factor in work that's not yet meeting the standard because a really important principle of proficiency is that you're not harmed by not knowing something yet. So it's a great algorithm, but the problem is it still produces a grade. And I just cannot tell you how difficult it is to help 10th and 11th and 12th graders mostly turn their eyes away from the grade to figure out what they should really be focusing on. So the very existence of the letter grade, the A or the A minus, detracts from a student's ability to really dig deeper. Some students are really ready to do that, but it feels like it's holding us back to be honest. And so I have a lot of faith in organizations like the Mastery Transcript Consortium and the Mastery Collaborative and their ability to help move colleges and universities towards really understanding what a proficiency based transcript would look like. They're out there, more and more schools are signing up with them every year to produce transcripts that don't have grades on them. And so I am hopeful, but I think that in the past couple of years, when I've talked to other folks who are struggling to figure out the grade question, as soon as I tell them that there's an algorithm, you can see their shoulders drop and they feel relief because now they'll be able to do a thing that all the parents want. And I understand that and it's really hard to watch students sort of only go as far as the grade, you know? It's a challenge that we have, everybody's an expert in education because they have at least 12 years experience. Exactly, exactly. Caleb. Yeah, I just, yeah, just a reminder that though it seems a year ago, almost exactly three months ago, Mary presented this evidence or testimony to our committee. I'm just sending it to everyone on the chat, but also February 18th for the public, we had this testimony and that algorithm is kind of mapped. I found it very interesting. Yeah, good, thanks. It does seem like a year ago. And Jess, how many are actually using an algorithm that can get them to a grade? I couldn't say across all the schools. I mean, there's so many different strategies that folks are using, even including within their LMS and SIS, like how they calculate that, how they provide feedback, the frequency in which they provide feedback, which also then puts some boundaries around how a score is calculated at any one time. So, I mean, happy to try to get you that information, but I think the broader point that I appreciate- Focus on continuity learning. Don't get that data from that data from me. But I do think that the broader point of, how do you make change if we feel constrained by what we've always done? And how do you sort of hold the tension of being pulled in both of those directions? I will just say that there are other models and the mastery transcript consortium is a great one and they also do this is microcredentialing and digital badging. And this has really been adopted in departments of labor and in communities. We also see it with our industry recognized credentials is we do see the value in specifying and being really specific about, you are able to do these things independently and that means that you are credentialed to now engage in this work or to enter this new pathway. And I think that that gives us a really concrete example of how people can toggle away from the letter grade and still feel that sense of achievement. And so, I hope that at least we can hold onto that and say, as we start to shift, as we get our higher education institution partners on board, that there are models out there that have been in existence for quite some time that we could turn to. I think the fire has been lit under the Vermont State Colleges. If there are things, Jess, that we can do, I'd be more than happy to hear from you or from the agency to address some of those issues related to proficiency-based learning and grading. If there are statutory changes, please let us know. That would help. And if it's just leave us alone, we need to continue on the course we're on. We hear that too. Okay, great, thank you. Anybody else? Oh, Sarita Austin. Hi, Mary, thanks again. That was a great presentation. Just wondering, I noticed that in your enrollment is 36 students in grades seven through eight. Is that correct? 36 middle school students, yeah. Right, so like in another middle school, let's say that might have 200 students in grades seven and eight, how do you see what you're doing being able to be transferred in terms of implementation? Cause I think the capacity in terms of teacher time and the huge range of learning abilities, how do you see that transferring? Well, I think what has to happen is the whole school, however big it is, has to be guided and supported in understanding proficiency-based learning first. So there has to be really targeted professional development and there has to be training on whatever software you're going to use to manage student progress because that's critical. Having a software that does proficiency-based learning, they're not a dime a dozen. They sometimes say they are, but they're not particularly faithful to the principles of the thing. In other words, they average everything and that may not be what the school wants. So you have to do the work of finding a software that does what you want it to do and then making sure to train teachers in not just how the software works, but what proficiency-based learning means, like what the paradigm shift is. And the more work I would say, err always on the side of helping teachers understand the philosophy because what we've found is that when we don't do regular trainings to remind people as they plan for their courses, what the philosophy, what the pedagogy is, they kind of fall back into what's traditional. So quizzes and tests that get number scores and the number scores feed into an average of something. And so I think any school, no matter how big, if it dedicates itself to finding a software that's truly proficiency-based and then supporting and guiding teachers and understanding how to assess on standards, then no matter how many students you have, you can explain to a student and their family what skills they are good to go with, what skills they're meeting or exceeding and where they need practice. And it's not any more work than having to decipher a teacher's narrative comment on a report card. In fact, it's clearer because you can use bars to represent a student's progress. You can use numbers, but being able to say to a child, let me show you, let me remind you what you're good at and let me remind you what you're gonna need to work on. And in really difficult circumstances like the ones we're in, of course you don't wanna ask every teacher to know what their child is doing at home so that they can use it as evidence. But at the very least, those teachers can know which skills, which students are most needing the practice in. And so they can target the learning that they give those students, right? So if my son really needs more practice as a reader and he's doing fine with his math, focus on the reading during these times when there's only so many hours a day, my seven-year-old is gonna sit with my husband and do his homework, especially when it's 80 degrees and sunny. So I do think that it's, as long as people understand what the paradigm is and they have a software where they can track it, it's absolutely doable. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much. I think we're gonna learn an awful lot from teachers who are also parents, as we go home, that are getting it from both sides. And really, thank you so much, Jess and Mary for joining us today. I don't know where we're gonna be next year, either do you, but we are standing by. Thank you so much for having us. Yes, thank you, pleasure. Yeah. Good to see everybody. Exactly, thank you, Jess. Bye-bye. Okay, next up, we're gonna talk a little bit about ed finance and what's happening in that area. There's been some activity going on in house ways and means that some of us have been able to listen to. And we have Chloe and Brad here. I believe we do not have more here today. So Chloe is the full JFO for today. So Chloe, shall we start with just where we are with the Ed Fund? Sure, absolutely. So I guess we will start with, well, sort of first I wanted to take the time to kind of take a step back and ground the committee again in the funding sources that make up the education fund. Thank you. So I actually, there are, I pulled a couple of slides from a presentation, just an introduction to education finance presentation that sort of will just show two, you can pull it up on your computer at a later time, but essentially we'll show that the education fund is made up of, both property taxes and non-property tax revenues. We can get those slides. Avery, can you pull up those slides? They're on our website. So this is, we're gonna walk our way through this so that everybody knows what's going on by the end. So essentially, this is based on FY19. So the numbers won't line exactly up, but it will give you the general overview of the education fund. And so what you can see here that the education fund is actually made up of two thirds property tax revenues and one third non-property tax revenues. So really when we're gonna start talking about the deficits that we're looking at in the education fund, what we're talking about is a reduction in those non-property tax sources. So we're talking about a reduction in essentially one third of the fund. If you go to the next slide, it will just show you what non-property tax sources are in the education fund. And just you can see and thinking about the current economy that we're all experiencing, sales tax, meals and rooms and purchasing use tax and lottery are all down. So that's sort of where we're gonna start. And then you can go to the next, the last slide is just the education fund uses, which is all but 1% is straight essentially to our schools. So now we can sort of step back to where we are now but keeping this in mind and keeping in mind that we're gonna be talking about this one third of the property of the education fund and sort of these large reductions we're seeing in this portion of the fund. So we can pull up the education. Just a reminder, the state categorical aid, does that money that goes directly to the school districts? So when you look at the education fund, there's a series of uses and so sorry, Avery, if you pull up the education fund outlook but the categorical grant programs would be special education, transportation, small schools. Those are the three that are coming out of my head right now but... And they filter through that. They filter through AOE and go directly to the school district based on whether you get small school grants or whether you have special needs that you have submitted. Yes. Right. So just two slightly different funding streams for those but all assisting schools. So I guess now we'll talk about, so we received a revenue update on May 18th. So on Monday. And so this reflects that latest update from the economists. It's very similar for FY20. We were previously looking at a negative $54 million shortfall in FY20 and that's been slightly increased to negative $55 million. So just to give you an idea back to, big picture education fund, that's about 10% of the non-property tax revenues. So 10% of 33%. What that effectively does, that revenue reduction in FY20, we were carrying a surplus in the education fund in FY20 due to actually increased performance in the sales tax and the passage of marketplace facilitators. And so we did actually have a surplus in the fund of about $13 million. And so if you could always just tell us what line you're on. Sure. Well, so the $13 million isn't actually gonna show up on here because it's gone now, which is what I'm about to get to. So essentially, while you can scroll all the way, sorry, I can't control this. I'm trying to control it on my iPad, which is why you see my finger swiping. Avery, can you scroll down? Okay, so if you look at line 27, you can see that we actually have a current year, we're projecting that we're gonna have a current year stabilization reserve of negative 4.6 million. So where we previously were operating with what we anticipated to be a surplus, we run through that surplus, which was $13 million. We empty our entire reserve, which was $37 million and we're still left with, we're still predicting that we'll be left with a deficit. We won't know if we have a deficit obviously until we close out the year, but those are our current projections. And just to make sure everybody's following this, this is for the school year that's ending at the end of June. Yes. And I believe in one of the first things that you acted on as a house, I think back in March was to allow inter-fund borrowing and sort of like increasing the timeline for that. And that's one of the solutions that's gonna help us with this potential shortfall in the education fund. But so now we move forward into FY21. And the economists will be the first to tell you that it's very difficult for them to predict what will happen, but what they're predicting right now is actually a little bit better than the predictions we received on April 28th. And so we're anticipating that the same non-property tax revenue sales, meals and rooms and purchase and use will be down $100 million in FY21. Previously, that number was estimated to be $112 million. So, okay, if you look at the death, if you scroll down, Avery, sorry, jeez. If you scroll down online, 31, you can see that we are projecting a deficit in FY21 of $156 million. And so I do wanna step through how we get here and some of the decisions that are made. And this is where we can start talking about some of the proposals that people are thinking about in terms of being able to support schools with federal funds from the CRF. And Chloe, in normal years, we would have just put this to the property tax, correct? Normally with a revenue lottery or sales tax or whatever being down, it would get reconciled on property tax, is that correct? It would get in the December one letter that the commissioner is required to put out. The fund is balanced by property taxes. But throughout the legislative session, the legislature has the opportunity to adjust those yields. And so they could choose to put a revenue shortfall on property taxes or you guys could choose to increase the sales tax or add a tax on services or you create an alternate revenue source. So it's not, it is the backdrop. It is the backstop to the education fund, but there are other options and there have been other options that have been used in the past as opposed to putting it onto the property tax. And we're going to be talking about some of the options that are coming forward in ways of means committee now. So members understood. So just back to get us to sort of where we think we are now is so we move forward into FY21 with a projected deficit. So the first thing that we have to do is make up that deficit and statutorily refill our reserve. So now you're at quickly in my head, 38 plus $5 million roughly. So you are, and then on top of that, you add the FY21 deficit of $100 million. And then if so, that is, and then there's one more component of that because if you do the math in your head, you're like, oh, that only adds up to like 140. And the ways and means committee, the tax rates that they're currently looking at, they wanted to set tax rates like sort of thinking about where the fund was prior to COVID. And prior to COVID, there was that surplus of $13 million in FY20. So the way that they were thinking about it, and this is usually something that happens every year is a discussion on whether or not those funds, those surplus funds are returned to taxpayers. And typically the house position is to return those funds. And so the ways and means committee said, well, I actually think it was the day that we were, the last day of the session, they were looking at property tax rates that included usage of those surplus funds. And that's what they continue to use in that's what they want to continue to use going forward, which is where you come up with the additional roughly $13 million that we're looking at either, that we're looking at essentially a solution for that is not the property tax. Yes, is a way to think about it. Just checking committee, you hang in? Yeah, I was gonna say, I think this is a good time to stop and answer any questions that you may have. Caleb. Yeah, thanks, Chloe. No problem. Yeah, following up on Kate's question about kind of what we would normally do if these revenues came in short. Am I correct in thinking that it's really only been 2019 in which all sales tax went to the Ed fund that in fact in 2018 it was still a general fund transfer of about one third. So in some ways the normal is only about a year, the new normal only about a year and a half, is that correct? That is true and there did used to be, actually that was, maybe I was only here for like one year of the general fund transfer but it's my understanding that that was always a large point of contention was, even when there was a funding shortfall on the general fund side, they were mandated to send this money to the education fund. And that was sort of like an ongoing back and forth but there were other, I believe there were some others winter non-property tax revenues that would come in as well. The general fund transfer was around $330 million about and I think you could think about it that's about two thirds of the non-property tax revenue. So we did sort of sometimes have to do some adjustments there but you're right in saying that this is sort of a new world for the education fund to sort of like really have some of that, that same risk that they have on the general fund side. Right, yeah, thanks. Brad, did you have anything to add on that? No, I think I was, you know, when Caleb asked that question I remember was it FY17 or FY18 when they first went to the sales news tax, move the general fund all to the general fund. And honestly, I don't recall which it is but it has not been a terribly long time. We're probably in our third year of it is what I think like 18, 19 and 20 is my guess. So yeah, I mean, this is one of the things that people were talking about and Chloe put it correctly that when it was a general fund transfer the general fund had to make that transfer unless you guys did it outstanding which happened once or twice I think over time I've been here, which is a long time. And I think one of the things that people were concerned with is what happens if there is a big plummet in the sales news tax, which we are seeing for reasons nobody ever expected. This is not what people were expecting. So yeah, it was thought about, it was discussed and here we are. Back in the day when we saw the revenue that was coming in from internet. That's right, that's right. Kathleen, James, and then Peter. Yeah, thanks. Chloe, you mentioned something I just wanna make sure I understand which seems wise to me. Did you say we have a statutory obligation to refill our reserve fund every year? In the December one tax rate letter, we are required to set the reserve to 5%. 5%, okay, thank you. And again, on the sheet that Chloe has up there, the column on the far right shows that the ed fund reserve not being filled to the full 5%. If you look online, 27, in the first two columns, that by 20 was 38 million, 38 million. And then this is just a model just to show what could happen given certain parameters. This is not a real proposal. The ed fund, the reserve is filled at a 2%. So it's at 15.2 million. You do have that, you do have that option to do. Can you remind me, is that a statutory change or is that just a decision? It would just be a decision for the legislature. The only thing that's statutorily required is that when we project tax rates on December one, we will project them to have a full reserve in the fund. And so, I mean, that is something that maybe potentially as we get a little bit further along in the process, once we have a little bit more of a firm idea of how we can, you know, what some of our options are with the funds, then we can talk about, you know, if there's any changes that want to get, that people want to make for, you know, the FY 22 tax rate letter, thinking about this as maybe, like this is going to be a multi-year problem. So I do know that the treasurer has mentioned that, you know, refilling your reserve can be a multi-year process. You don't have to refill it all in one year and credit agencies are usually okay with that as long as they see that you're actively working to refill them. Reserves help for borrowing. Yes, and I can sort of segue us in if you want pretty nicely to some of the options that are on the table for dealing with that deficit, one of them being, you know, if you only fill the reserve to, like Brad is saying, 15. Why don't you hold that because I want to make sure with all of that, but I also just want to make sure Kathleen did. Oh, there was another question. Kathleen, were you, did I interrupt at you? So I just want to make sure that you're... No, that was my question. Thank you. Okay. Peter, then Dylan, then Serena. Thanks. And I am looking forward to Dylan to see generally up on those reserves and what the rules are around it. My question is there was some question about how you were accounting for thus far uncollected sales tax money from, I guess the first quarter of this calendar year. And is that being, how is that being dealt with in this and how much money are we talking about? So there has been a sort of a change in that regard. The tax department has indicated that they will not push the payments back any further than May 25th. We weren't sure if that was gonna get pushed. There was some discussion on whether that was gonna get pushed off in, you know, into July or into June and then July. So they are now anticipating that and they're gonna actively try and collect this sales tax money. So they don't think that as much, the economists don't think that as much will be deferred. If anything, it was, they were projecting maybe like a $41 million deferral. And now I think based on action from the tax department and sort of their agreement to sort of like try and cap, you know, it's a trust tax. So, you know, essentially collect the tax that's owed to them that's already been paid. They think maybe they might not be able to collect like 5 million of that. It's a very squishy number. And so that would be the only thing that's like kind of deferred, but it should all get attributed to FY20. Right, but I just say the big problem is whether that money actually exists. Yes. Thank you. And so it's a valid point that we assume in this balance sheet that that money does exist. And the economists are assuming that as well, I think based on collections that have come in, like the majority of the big payers have paid. Dylan. Yeah, just a quick refresh for the committee, Chloe. When the letter is prepared after that consensus process throughout the fall, you come in and you present to us the rates set proportionally to one another. You try to keep that consistent. But the legislature has the authority to set, if I recall correctly, either property or income payers or non homestead at whatever rate we want. Just recently, we have followed that guidance in trying to maintain parity based upon the guidance of the letter. Is that right? That is correct. And I do appreciate you bringing that up because we have played around with that in the past. We had a veto session where we, where that was one of the points of contention, actually. And so that you are able to do that, there can be decisions that get made, to raise one class of property above the other. And the only thing that I will say about that is when the legislature starts changing those sort of proportions, we end up carrying that into our next letter. So we will take whatever the tax rate was in the year before and we will increase everybody proportionally from the tax rate that they saw last year. So they do, those little manipulations do have a bit of a trickle effect. And if you recall, when we were looking at those three slides that were presented, the Homestead, the property tax, property tax overall is two thirds of the fund, but the Homestead payers pay 26% of that and the non-Homestead payers pay 41% of that. So, there is a, already it's not 50-50 between those two property tax classes. Sarita. I know you've thought of this, but I just. I don't know that I have. Okay, no, I know you've thought of this. So I'm just wondering on the non-property tax side, the reason the sales tax has gone down is because of COVID-19. Is there any case to be made to get federal funding, to access the federal funding, to fill that back up? Or is that a stretch? No, so I mean, that is, that is obviously what we would like to do and what ways and means and finance on the Senate side has been thinking about sort of different possibilities of how to do that. The guidance, I'm not, you know, I'm not a lawyer, so I don't want to get too deep into the guidance, but it does say that one of the strongest points of this is that it can't be used for a direct revenue replacement. And so we can't just put it into the fund. And so there's lots of different, there's been lots of different ideas that are floated out. Can you send a check to every taxpayer? So essentially, you know, there was an idea that was going around for a while that we would increase property taxes, but we would provide a subsidy to taxpayers to sort of offset that. And that was gonna be sort of like a little run around. The first set of guidance that came out had a question that specifically said that you cannot provide this to taxpayers in the form of property tax relief. So, okay, we moved on from that. And now really what the Ways and Means Committee is looking at doing in sort of this example that you see on the Education Fund Outlook, that third column that Brad referenced is just an example at this point, but they're thinking about different ways that potentially, you know, reducing the education payment to the schools from the Education Fund. So we're not, you know, we're not gonna change, we're hopefully not gonna change the total amount of money that that school has asked for and voted for, but we're gonna change the amount of state dollars that we send to that school and try and, you know, subsidize those funds with federal dollars. So these are, we're now talking, which is great, we're now talking about what's happening in Ways and Means that's under active discussion on how we're addressing the problem that we have on that little form over there. Yeah, and I would say that right now, yes, under active discussion, but really at this point, sort of awaiting additional guidance and, you know, the administration is considering, I don't know if they're considering or they have already hiring a consultant to help them sort of, you know, work through the legalities of sending out this money. So, you know, potentially that's on the table as well. I think some of the discussions that are really going on right now in Ways and Means is do you sort of like set the stage, set the yields and, you know, sort of outline like sort of like option A, option B, option C, if, you know, certain, if federal funds do become available, then this or, and sort of saying, okay, we're gonna set the property tax rates and, you know, we will be back in August for the remainder of the budget bill. And so, you know, they're trying to just like kind of get a process, their idea at least right now is to get a process in motion and then basically give themselves some more time. So, that's what they're thinking about right now, but it is tricky to say the least. Thank you. So, just to clarify, right now they're looking at setting a yield that approximates somewhere around where they expected it to be with the COVID being a separate problem in a sense that we need to solve and as information comes forward to fill that gap. So, instead of saying, I don't know if I'm putting words in their mouth, but instead of saying, you know, this is the spending problem that, you know, that we need to address and taxpayers are gonna cover it, is to say we ran into this challenge of COVID-19 to change the lay of the land completely. And we know we've got federal funds that are coming and is there a way that we can actually actively use these in a way to settle the fund. Brad, I didn't find that very well. Just real quickly, going back to what Chloe was showing the outlook statement, that again, there are three columns under that FY21 and that very first column is exactly what Kate was just talking about, where the hole in the Ed fund and the filling of the reserves is balanced on the taxpayers. And if you look way up at the top, Ava, please. And I won't point with my pen, because you wanna see me pointing. But in line A, you can see that the average property tax went from $1.51 to almost $1.72. That's a 22 cent increase, 21 and a half cents. And the average non-homesed property tax went from $1.59 to $1.81. So again, another 22 cents. This is what the rates would be if you were to balance the Ed fund using tax rates. Ways of means, as Kate has said, have been very, very clear about it. This is not what they're going to do. It's just, they're simply to show you this is what would happen. So they're really more, again, in that second column and working towards that third column. The second column has that big giant deficit down at the bottom. But as Kate said, it represents pretty much what the yields and the tax rates would have been had for pre-COVID, I guess the best way to put it. So assuming that the revenues had not plummeted. And so that's what the students, it's not bringing as much tax. And therefore you're seeing that big deficit down at the bottom. So I've got to go to Dylan in just a second. Does the committee want Brad to go through line by line on this form to better understand it? And if you could just sort of raise your hands if you would like Brad to kind of go through line by line on this form. On the education fund outlook? Yes, but I mean, I mean to, for example, I don't think to see that column right there as well. There's the 20 cents. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I don't know if there are other areas on here that folks want. I don't see any hands. So I guess we're not going to do it. No, I mean, I do think that that's a good point though. And I thank you, Brad. This is showing you sort of the three possible scenarios that are out there right now. One, increase the property tax rates. And that's sort of like a December one scenario, you could say that's what we're statutorily required to do is to balance the fund on the property taxes. Then you see the Ways and Means Committee said, OK, well, prior to COVID, these are the tax rates that we were looking at based on voted school spending and the previous health of the fund. And you see that due to that $100 million reduction in FY21 and $55 million reduction in FY20, we have $150 million deficit in the fund. And sort of then column three would be, OK, what are some of the ways that we could start to think about sort of solving this problem with the use of the federal money, which can't be a one to one replacement at this time, but conceivably can be provided directly to schools to assist with, this is again where it's up in the air, but we're trying to think about what kind of compensatory services our students going to need when they go back to school. I was listening to a little bit of the testimony prior to coming on about proficiency-based learning and some of the experiences of some of the students. So those are some of the things that are kind of being mold around is what uses potentially are there in schools. It seems like there's a lot, but which uses will be federally acceptable. And the money I think that Chloe is talking about specifically right now is the coronavirus relief fund. That's the $1.25 billion. And that's the one that has the very severe restrictions on its use. And that's what Chloe is saying, is that those parameters that they put around that money are tight. And so they're trying to figure out what to do. It's very clear they cannot be used to offset loss in state revenue. And so people are trying to figure out what can we use those for in terms of expenses that will leave the criteria. And that shows up in 11A. In 11A. But I will bring up one thing that I do think is important for the committee to acknowledge and sort of know about as we're floating through all of this. There was money that was specifically designated to schools as part of the CARES package. And so that's what you're seeing in line 11A that's called, people are calling it the ESSER, it's the education secondary. It's elementary and secondary. Yeah, there you go. I finally figured it out. And that's about $28 million. It's a total of about $31 and 1.5 million to the agency. And of that, we're going to keep about 10% to direct specifically to certain places. But the remainder is about around $28 million. And that's included in that $100 million number that you're seeing there online in 11A. And it is in this sort of like fictitious example. But I do want to flag that that's sort of out there as well. They're kind of two separate pots of money that are being thought about partially because those ESSER funds are slightly more flexible. And I don't know if, Brad, you have any additional information on that. But Chelsea Myers from the SBA flagged for me the other day. And I knew that this, I think this is still a continued issue is how those funds will be allocated. Yeah, what the controversy is, it's not how they're going to be allocated to the LEAs, which in our case is Supervisor Union and District, because it's clear that's based on Title I allocations. So that's just a percentage. What the controversy is, and I think Chelsea was talking about correct from Ron Chloe, is on the equitable services that the law says that school districts who receive this money must provide to independent schools in their areas. And what the law says is that those will be provided the same, again paraphrasing here, but at the same fashion as the Title I money, which is based on poverty counts. But the US Ed, well, yeah, it's based on poverty counts, based on the percentage of poverty kids as a whole who are at independent schools versus the public schools. The money's allocated that way in the Title I. What US Ed has done in their guidance is they change that from being based on the poverty counts. They change it to total enrollments of independent schools within the district and the public schools. So now it's the independent schools enrollment as a percentage of the overall enrollment. The controversy is because that's going to send more money, apparently, to the independent schools. And I think people just want to make sure that's what US Ed is really after, because that's what the controversy is. By the same token, the other thing is, and I can't remember if you mentioned Chloe, is that Ways and Means did ask Secretary of French to not rush this money out the door so they had a little more time to think about things. And Secretary of French agreed, which is why the money has not won out a second reason. And I don't know what the status is currently on the equitable service part of the US Ed guidance, where I think we'll wait to hear back from that. But I think pretty much most states were not happy with that. So I don't know if US Ed will change his mind or not. But I think that's the largest part of why there's a delay in getting it out. But secondly, it is because Ways and Means was looking at trying to keep all their options open and to get a good picture of FY20 and FY21 because they're so linked together. I'm still on. That's so perfect. Let me let me remove my cat here. I'm sorry. No, we love it. We're having our own extraordinary moments here trying to get through. All right, this is really helpful. And I'm starting to wrap my head around the options, Ways and Means is dealing with. But I do want to just clarify, so that $28 million that you're calling Essar in this document, we can assume that that will be distributed to schools without maybe as much line by line scrutiny because the uses are already permitted. Because I understand the coronavirus relief fund and looking at permissible uses, I would imagine it would get at things like maybe PPE and masks and those sorts of things. But there might be some barriers to it. But the $28 million, do we have pretty good certainty that that could be distributed and pushed into the fund? The CARES Act itself was very clear on that $28 million is that we, being AOE, have no say in how they use it. They have 12 options put into the law itself. And two of them are fairly broad. So it can be used for a significant or a very wide range of purposes as long as they meet those criteria. But again, that money will be going to school districts and they will do what they want as long as they meet those criteria. Just to clarify as well, and so no policy decision has been made about using it in fiscal 20 or fiscal 21. You could apply it this year to offset some of the need in the fund. Or I understand why you would just pass the yields as you had envisioned doing so prior to this and then deal with it in the next year because you could have a, not a clean slate, it's actually a very dirty slate, but at least you know what you're starting from. Whereas if you start tinkering now, I know it all balances out the way the fund works, but those are pretty complex policy questions. So essentially though, I'm looking at this and I'm thinking to myself, this might be too simple. So tell me it is as soon as I say it. But if we're looking at a deficit of about 150 million in 21 on that bottom line, so we really, if we have 28 million that we can use, we're still looking at somewhere around 130 million probably depending on how it washes out that we need to solve for. That's a big number. So these are big hulking policy decisions. That's good to know as we start thinking about this. I do just wanna flag one thing because we're talking about the idea of a policy decision. Right now, there would have to be a policy decision made to account for that ESSER money in the education fund. That is money that's actually flowing completely external to the state. It's going directly to AOE and from AOE directly to the school districts. So that is one of the reasons why Representative Ansel requested that Secretary French sort of like kind of luff up on those funds is so that that could still, so that could remain on the table as an option, as one, as part of the option, as part of many options. And I think at the end of the day, it might be a little bit of a little bit of everything. But I do wanna flag sort of in regards to those ESSER funds. Schools will be incurring and have incurred expenses that are above and beyond, you know, their FY20. And, you know, they voted on an FY21 budget in it before that, you know, anyone had it, you know, when COVID was still in the fish market. And so I think that there are some school districts that had anticipated, you know, receiving that ESSER money to cover some of their additional costs. So there are additional costs that are out there. And I think one of the things that Ways and Means is thinking about is, you know, why would you cover those additional costs with the flexible money? Those are clearly CRF-eligible costs, like you're saying, masks, PPE, the transition to online learning, to go containers for remote meals. And maybe Brad can speak to more of this about what kind of costs districts are seeing now. It's not a huge amount of money, but it's something. And when you look at the health of the Education Fund right now, you have to take in mind the fact that, you know, you don't want every single district going into FY21 with a deficit. And so there is some discussion of, you know, can you provide some amount of CRF funds for FY20 for, you know, actual expenses that these districts are incurring and then keep that ESSER money for further down the road? So that's out there as well. Right, right, I'm sorry. One thing to clarify on the ESSER money, I see here that for this exercise, it's been treated as an appropriation with the other potential monies. So that can't be counted as a revenue source. It really needs to be, it sounds like it needs to be its standalone thing. It can't replace revenue. Do I understand that right for ESSER or is that more just for coronavirus relief funds? So the ESSER, what I meant with the ESSER is that that's completely external to the education fund at this point. It's not a revenue and it's not a use. It flows directly to the schools and it would act like just additional revenues for those schools. So if we wanted to quote unquote capture that in the education fund, we would do that by reducing the state payment to those schools. So then you're saying, okay, you know, Montpelier, your budget is a million dollars. We know you're getting 750K from ESSER. So the education fund is only going to provide 925K. So there would be a policy decision that would have to get made in order, in order to reduce the state payment in anticipation of the federal funds that they will directly receive. Does that answer your question? Great, I can see you nodding. Larry, then Peter, then Caleb. Yeah, thank you. Is there any, would there ever be an issue? I worry a little bit about Co-Mail and the ESSER adjustment in Title I funds. Am I missing something there? So they're not co-mingled at all. What Brad was talking about is the way that, the way that the ESSER money is set to be distributed to LEAs, which LEAs in Vermont are supervisory unions. The federal government doesn't recognize individual districts. The money will be distributed in a similar, in a proportional manner to Title I. But other than that, they're separate. Right, it's not Title I money. It can be used for the same purposes. It can be used for other purposes. It does not have the same strings of tattoo at the Title I money adds. Yeah, I would just be concerned about if it were or conceived to be, if there would be any penalties involved or clawbacks involved with that. I suppose people use it incorrectly. There could very well be. But we're being pretty clear with people that this does not replace Title I money. You can use it to supplement Title I money, but the logical thing is use your Title I money first because you have it anyway and that it has specific purposes. And to use this other money for whatever else you need. I think that's what most people are going to do. I don't know. But I think my guess is that's what most business managers are pretty cognizant of what the federal restrictions are on their money. And again, this S for money does not have the same restrictions, nor does the CRF. Thank you. Peter. Well, Chloe, I think really hit on a lot of the things I was just going to ask about. And she also did an excellent job of describing a clawback without using the word clawback. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Just to provide an example that the secretary has pointed out to us, he has sort of said, oh, don't bother changing the rules about transportation aid. Even though the transportation of meals does not qualify for transportation aid, but you're not transporting kids, he has said, because that will qualify for COVID related reimbursement. And the S for money is exactly what he's talking about. So in fact, some of that money is already spoken for just in transportation. And I think one of the ideas is, is can you use the more restrictive CRF funds? Can you provide them, provide a mechanism, set up an expense fund, for example, at AOE, which they're going to be so excited about, where districts can say, I've incurred a million dollars in specifically COVID related costs, transportation of meals, PPE, everything that the CRF fund is right now clearly designated for. And so can they cover those additional directly related COVID costs with the CRF money? And that leaves the more flexible ESSER money sort of still available for use in FY21. Caleb. Thank you. So I wanted to just see if I could dig in a little bit on the ESSER money. We did hear previous testimony. I know this is a while ago, but when you heard about that money, we were told it was going to be distributed according to title one numbers. Not that it was that money, but that it would be distributed along the same guidelines. Then this guidance changed from, I guess we're going to break it off, to 7-1-1 private schools. So- Caleb, could you say that part again? I missed that part. I'm sorry. Sure. Yeah. So what I understood is, at first it was going to be allocated according to title one. And we did testimony to that factor, which I know is the best gotten knowledge at the time. Then this US ed decision came down. I'm just trying to understand, was that a just change in interpretation because the bill had already been passed or was this sort of supplemental guidance? What form did it take? That's kind of one question. The other question is, why were we so sure it was going to be based on title one allocations before that guidance came out? Was there anything in the CARES Act to that effect? Yes, the CARES Act very clearly states how money will go out. It will go out based on the relative proportions of the most recent title one funding, which is their FY 19, our FY 20. So those are basically a straight percentage calculation. It then goes on to say that if a school district, just like with other federal title monies, if a school district receives this money, then they need to provide equitable services if the independent schools want them. The language is doesn't, I have it somewhere, I can pull it off or I can send it to you all too and tell you where it is in the CARES Act. But the language is just an example. If a school district receives this money, they shall provide service in the same manner that they provide services on the title one for equitable services. That was presumed to mean that monies would be allocated out in the same fashion. When the U.S. education guidance came out, they had a blurb about it in their guidance and they said, we think that it would be fair to the independent schools it was based more on enrollment and again, I'm paraphrasing, it was based more on enrollments as opposed to poverty because the kids in the independent schools have the same issues and problems that the kids in the public would have. That's kind of what it's coming down to. So it was really their interpretation in their guidance. And I think that's where the push is. But what I'm hearing is that the recipient of the money would be the LEA supervisory district and then they would distribute that money to independent schools who were geographically adjacent with them or within their SU, like... It's within their boundaries. And again, for the federal purposes, our LEAs, which are school districts and most other states are our supervisory unions. And again, some of our supervisory unions are single school districts, so they're supervisory districts. But it's the schools within the boundaries of those supervisory unions. And they don't necessarily have to distribute money but they have to provide services which cost money. So it's, you know, I'm not quite sure how it does it right now, currently, in the titles. My final question here, what I'm sorry to have been lengthy in building to it, but of the 28.1 million or whatever it is, 28.5 million, it would go to Vermont schools. Have you done the math on the difference between if all of that was allocated under the title one and if schools, according to this new guidance, have to take a portion of their allocation and redistribute it? Have you done the math on how big a bite of the 28 that takes? I have not. Somebody asked that earlier today and I have not. I don't have the data for that. I don't know as we have the data as to how much the supervisory unions currently are sending out to the independent schools who are requesting equitable services for their students. It would be probably easier for me to look at the enrollments of the independent schools than the supervisory boundary. We should have those for this year and come up with an arm. But again, all those schools may not apply. I mean, I could come up with a range probably on that, but in terms of how it's happening now, I don't know as I have the information to do that. Right? The distribution of those independent schools is somewhat erratic, I'm guessing, so that some SUs may have multiple independent schools and some may have none. Is that correct? That's my understanding. I have in Canvas the school district or the supervisory union debt to find that out. And just to clarify, that does not include parochial schools. That's a good question. And I'm not sure. I don't know. You might know, but off the top of my head, I'm not certain when we're talking about poverty. I think my guess is it probably doesn't include parochial schools, but I'm not one to defend certain. I will make a note and find out. Based on what I'm on the U.S. ed, I was under the impression that it did. I thought it was just independent schools, but I don't know. I mean, crazier things have happened in this administration. Thank you. This is very helpful. It's very clear that this is completely sorted out and we don't have much to do. It's all home. Yeah, it's all done. It's all home. We're done. So thank you. So the Senate is working on ways to use the COVID money to make up for the current hole we have from other revenue sources in a way that will work within the guidelines. And because things are still unclear at this point, it's not something that we can put the stamp on and say it's up. We absolutely know it's going to work, but we also want to continue to move forward as information opens up. Other final thoughts or questions? Seeing none. That is it on our agenda for today. Thank you so much, Chloe and Brad, for presenting this. I know that I'm going to have to kind of look at it for a little while to better understand it. We appreciate you continuing to update that as information goes. Yeah.