 This week on the anxious truth we're talking about how to learn to just do nothing which seems ridiculous, but it's really helpful So let's get into it Hello everybody, welcome back to the anxious truth. This is episode number 272 of the podcast We are recording in August of 2023 in case you are listening from the future I am Drew Lincellata creator of the anxious truth and host of this podcast This is the podcast that covers all things anxiety anxiety disorders and anxiety recovery So if you have just stumbled upon this YouTube channel or this podcast and you're struggling with things like recurring panic attacks or OCD or Goraphobia, this is the place for you I do hope that you find what we do here helpful in some way and of course if you are returning viewer or listener welcome back I'm glad that you're here this week We are talking to my friend OCD and anxiety specialists from Cleveland, Ohio Joanna Hardis Joanna has written a new book called just do nothing a paradoxical guide to getting out of your way and The themes in the book that Joanna has written will be very familiar to those of you who have followed this podcast or read my books or Follow along with me on social media and Joanna has taken the concept of doing nothing and Learning how to do nothing in response to scary thoughts or physical sensations And she's expanded it beyond just anxiety recovery Which is our context to really apply it to life in general Which it does and you'll see as we go into the interview with Joanna and talk about the book and the highlights of the book And the things the best parts that I think of the book You'll see that in many ways This is an interesting book because it can help you understand how your struggle with an anxiety disorder is Really very related to the struggles of just everyday people who will find that they are stuck or they you know Are overthinking or whatever it happens to be believe it or not People in our community often see themselves as broken But one of the cool things about this book that Joanna has written in her own friendly kind of humorous way Is that it really illustrates that like oh, we're not all that different than everybody else We just might be a little bit more extreme or in a little bit of a deeper rut So anyway, we'll bring Joanna on in a second just a quick reminder before I do that the anxious truth is more than just this Podcast episode or this YouTube channel head on over to my website at the anxious truth comm There is a ton of other stuff there including books that I've written Workshops and courses that might help you along the way to recovery a ton of free social media content There's also 271 other free podcast episodes before this one. There's a link over to the disordered podcast that I do with Josh Fletcher Which you can find at disordered FM. So anyway hit hit my website at the anxious truth comm Avail yourself of all the resources. I think they're helpful people tell me that they are so take advantage Okay, let's get Joanna on to Talk about her book and talk about the idea of just doing nothing in response to scary thoughts and scary sensations and just Unpleasant distressful moments, not just an anxiety, but life in general. I think you're gonna enjoy the interview. Let's get to it Joanna welcome. Thank you. Good to be here with you. How are you this morning? I'm well. How are you? I'm good So as I mentioned in the intro for those of you do not know Joanna Joanna is Joanna connected. I don't know you're in half two years ago I think it's been that long. Yeah somewhere in that neighborhood and uh, yeah I'm proud to call Joanna a friend and we've done a bunch of work together with some different workshops and things that we're doing Working on and more stuff coming and Joanna Wrote a book that I just freaking love. Thank you The book is called just do nothing the paradoxical guide to getting out of your way And if you guys have followed this podcast for any length of time do nothing is just one of my favorite things in the world So let's talk about that. Why'd you write this book? Well, and you were such a you were such a part of it because we were working on stuff professionally around distress tolerance and then uh, I had that personal experience, which is in the first chapter Where uh, I got ghosted And I it was this perfect intersection of a professional interest and then a personal experience of tremendous distress and it just kind of lit a fire in my belly about writing this book I didn't really have any intention. I had sort of always thought about writing a book But that was the getting ghosted. I think it was the personal experience and getting through that That was the impetus for doing it. Yeah. So that was really what kicked the whole thing off I mean, I was reading and I I read and I'm like, well, I didn't I didn't know that I didn't know that was the thing that started you going. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was so good Which seems like it was just yesterday which blows me away because you wrote this book pretty quickly I know you didn't but it was fast. Yeah, it was fast. I had a fire. I had a fire in my belly to do it Let's talk about just do nothing and here's the cool thing about this book So if you're listening clearly you you might recognize you and maybe you already follow her on instagram Our content is very similar. We're always talking about Panic disorder, goryphobia, ocd, you know those things this book kind of goes beyond that This is not necessarily just an anxiety recovery book and it wasn't never meant to be exactly. Yeah Yeah I love how you've taken the just do nothing thing Which is the thing we talk about all the time in the recovery context and just brought it to the rest of life In a lot of ways, right because what I was struggling with and this is what you and I talk about a lot under the Umbrella of distress was there were just a ton of unpleasant and uncomfortable emotions that I Was experiencing, you know, there was disappointment. There was shame. There was embarrassment. There was Uncertainty, of course, there was worry and anxiety But there was also so many other feelings That went along with it, which I think is really common Under this umbrella of distress. It's the same process. Which is what we always talk about when we've done workshops and when we've talked about it It's the same process But you know, it's different feelings Yeah, so it isn't necessarily about getting through a panic attack or you know a wave of intrusive thoughts or something like that I mean, it certainly is those skills are applicable here Right What happens when you take that that sort of philosophy and that approach out of the recovery context and just stick it in the rest of life Exactly That's not new, you know, like I always find sometimes it's amazing people Hear this sort of thing and they're like wow, that's revolutionary and it's it's sort of not because we could trace this back thousands of years This idea Really, I did not know that we can yeah, so like this is thousands There are thousands. I mean if you can go all the way back into Taoism and Buddhism and I find this sort of acceptance type thing like hey, what am I going to do with this now that it's here? Quite a ways Or not trying to control things that we cannot control, which is one of your central messages here. Yes. Yeah, yeah So I just let's go to the distress part because for people listening That's probably the most interesting part right distress and distress Intolerance and learning to tolerate distress a little bit more and and we've actually done a workshop on this together That we're sort of retooling and we'll we'll bring it back, but I love when you wrote this was a case study, I guess or or a sort of a Power phrasing of a professional relationship that I'm sure you have permission I have to put that out there because oh she talked about a client No, no, no, Joanne is a highly ethical therapist. It's not a worry and uh Had to learn had to do distress differently Mm-hmm. That was one of a that was a fist pump moment when I read that she had to learn to do distress differently. Yeah, that looked like Um, and I can't remember the exact anecdote that you're talking about because I literally say that with every single person with whom I work That you have to do You know, you have to do whatever it is differently do dread differently do distress differently Um, so I say it all the time. So I don't even know that's right Yeah, the interesting about do do distress differently was the old like okay instead of immediately trying to fix this Oh, sure The the steps you check it listen. This is why we're such a good fit slow down I mean somebody should maybe write a book about slowing down. I don't know. Maybe someone already did Slow down take a step back and Respond to the situation not the emotion is huge. Let's talk about it. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes We talk about that a lot because oftentimes when we're feeling Insert whatever unpleasant emotion. I think for this podcast it's certainly going to be panic anxiety Fear worried out We're feeling it feels urgent. We feel our body You know, I've read it like the you feel an alarm system in your body That doesn't mean though that there's actually a fire right So, I mean, it's that whole concept of being able to I think sally winston says Extract the urgency Yeah, yeah get out of urgency and go to intentionality. Yeah It's like act with some intention and respond to the situation Which is really hard for people listening to this to do Absolutely Well, that's part of the just do nothing because our intention, you know, what's intuitive to us is to Do more and work so hard to get rid of that unpleasant feeling because it sucks so much But that you know, as we know only makes it so much worse Yeah And so what what actually is helpful in the long run is to learn how to ride those feelings out Let them be which is Would sound so easy, but it's so hard. Let them be let them pass And focus on you know, focus on what you can do in that situation Yeah, yeah, which is super important and it that's where the lessons are learned whether it's an anxiety recovery in life Like, oh, okay, I didn't have to fix this. I could actually sort of sail through it or navigate I usually were navigator all the time. Yeah Yeah, which works out really well But the issue with that I think a lot of people feel and I'm gonna move you on I'm kind of just walk you talk walk you through your own book like you need that but Feel free to yeah, you really made a good point too in and you know one thing a little bit at a time You know and you talked about that whole like new january 1st, man I'm gonna go to the gym. I'm gonna crossfit four days a week I'm gonna get up at five o'clock in the morning in journal Everybody has grand plans to fix everything all at once it never works that way it never does No, it doesn't who nobody does that No, everybody wants to do that, but nobody ever really does it Well, I think this is the trap though on instagram on social media They you know, that's what is promoted and I think Um, I don't follow influencers, but I think that what I hear is that that's what they promote, you know In all these extreme things. I mean I have clients who tell me about people that they follow And it's like oh well, we're going vegan. We're cutting out all this, you know gluten and dairy and we're meditating And we're doing gratitude and it's like come on because no one talks about what happens As you cut all that stuff out of your life When you start feeling all those uncomfortable feelings. Yeah, what happens now? Exactly because yeah And then that plan goes into the the gutter and you do talk a lot about like then that harsh Judgment negative judgment. I failed. I blew it. I didn't do it. Yeah Right one of the things a little at a time is a great bit of advice, especially with people listening today Okay, great. Drew says do nothing. Joanna says do nothing. She wrote this great book I'm gonna start doing nothing today. Well, that's cool, but you won't get it right right away And let let's go through those stages I did a podcast episode and I think I've revisited it to the stages of recovery and you used it the trans theoretical model of change Sure, you know walk people through that a little bit because I think it's it's so helpful to conceptualize it that way How do you make a change? We actually go through steps to do that. Sure. So the trans theoretical model of change Actually lays out Stages that someone goes through before they hit action So, you know, this is and this is the problem with new year's resolutions is that people just jump to action When there's actually this whole process It's you know, this the stages start with pre contemplation when you're not even thinking about a change Then it goes to contemplation when you're thinking about a change and you're weighing, you know the pros and the cons of the change And then and you sort of have that ambivalence and then you go to preparation Where you know, you're preparing for the change you're telling your support system You're getting, you know, you're you're getting accountability in place So it's not that you just jump to action. You're actually thinking about it You're preparing for it. You're getting you're thinking about okay, what's going likely to get in my way What can I you know, what supports can I put in place Before you even get to the actual action part Yeah, I'm a lot of people don't get that Right. Yeah, so they think they should just decide to do something different and boom They just do something different and rarely ever works that way Exactly, right. And then, you know, once you hit action, then it's maintenance Which is how am I going to maintain this? What do I have to do because I think a lot of people I know in anxiety recovery too They think, oh, well, I've done the exposures. I've done the things Now life Do I have to maintain this and when they when they realize that they have to maintain doing ritual prevention or they have to keep You know, they they can't just go back to avoiding things That's part of maintenance Yeah, which makes if you look at it that way if you're struggling now and you're trying to get started You're trying to move in a different direction with your anxiety or life in general as John's book is about You know, it's okay to be working through those stages and and they're not linear. You go back and forth between them Right. So you might go from, you know, sort of contemplation, which is kind of that. Um, whoops That's not what we want. I put the wrong thing up on the screen. Um We go you might go from sort of like contemplation to like, okay I'm sure to into this back to pre contemplation. Nah, not for me. Not doing this too bad. Yeah, that's totally okay. Totally. Okay Absolutely I get a lot of people. I mean, I think this is what happens in therapy too. People come in They want action But then when you actually explain What's involved in making a change Then we often bounce back down to contemplation Yep. Yeah So that the person can understand. Okay. What are the active ingredients? What skills do you know? What skills would you need before you even jump to action? What barriers do we need to think about and then how do you prepare for that? It's actually much more involved than people People social media influencers You know, I I don't even know like the Figures on Instagram that just talk about all the changes they make would lead people to believe Yeah, that you just decide to do it So I think if you're listening today and you're in that point of recovery where you just keep Beating yourself over the head. Why can't I get this? I don't understand. I know what I'm supposed to do You're probably in that mode right now where you just haven't hit the point where there's a tipping point yet Right where you go consistently into action. So you vastly but everybody does that. Yes Everybody in their context is generally like no, I'm good. I'm fine I have my essential oils and I tap and I'm good and then that's not working So let me look for something else and you stumble upon people like Joanna and I and you start to think Maybe I will do that Maybe you get really revved up. Okay. I'm going to start preparing and then you find out what you have to do And you go all the way back to like no, I'm good back to the essential oils and the tapping like I'm not doing that Right, you know, this is so normal and it's okay And you know, you have, you know, I know from my own experience in therapy and doing You know exposure work You have to be the timing has to be right You have to have enough energy and in time and investment to put into doing the work Yeah, and sometimes the timing isn't right and that's okay And I don't want people to judge themselves if this isn't the time in their life that they can do that Yeah, there's so much good stuff in this book That targets that exact thing feeling like a failure if you fail I love how you put that stuff and beating yourself up and the negative judgment like It's easy to get into that. We all do it sometimes but Just note that you're not failing and it's okay to take a while to get there. Everybody does. Yeah to make a big change Right and also this idea of scaling So which I know you and I have talked about a lot in our workshops people Come in and they want the sexy stuff We'll want to be able to do the hardest stuff possible, which you know scaling wise is like they're eight Nine's 10 out of 10s, but you have to start With the easier stuff to learn the process to get you know to understand how To to do, you know to how to do how to do the process how to get these principles of just Doing nothing with the stuff in your head And doing the behavior differently And I think that's hard for people. It is hard because everybody we know where the biggest restriction is in life I you know my family wants to go on holiday or vacation and I can't go so can you tell me how to do that? Yes If you're showering with the door open in a bathing suit because you're afraid to do it the way you used to start there Right start right away with the biggest thing, right? Yeah, and I think you might argue that like Applying the principle of doing nothing with the scary stuff in your head Do it in the least threatening context first before you go to what you think is threatening anyway Absolutely Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So you can get some confidence that you understand It's the same process In your head how we interact with our thoughts how we interact with feelings. We don't like and bodily sensations. It's the same process it's just You know, some things are scaled much higher. They're much more difficult Yeah, but if you practice the little things you will have a some footing to stand on when you go into the more difficult situations Exactly. Yeah You head on a couple other things. I want to get through some points here. We don't want to go too long and try to limit No, totally Don't do the good stuff. Keep talking. That's why you're here. Um, I love the part Where you talk about this whole chapter called don't think just do Which is a very valuable advice But at the same time people are going to hear me say that and like she wrote what Like how am I supposed to not think thinking of course? I have to think before I do You have to think you have to plan you have to what if that's what keeps me safe So I'm I'm going to laud you for that don't think just do and then let's let's talk about what I know Is going to be the objection to that if somebody read that Well, and a caveat is Every chapter the first part every chapter starts with something that annoys me That's true. That was pretty clever too. Yeah, so it's usually something that either is on a word art or I've seen like on a bag Or on a coffee mug. That's like a um, it's like You know, it's one of these sayings that we say That is like means well, but it's terrible advice. Yeah, ungrosely oversimplified Exactly And it's one of my pet. It's one of my thousands of pet peeves so That is the premise so that was something that annoys me when when I've seen things that say Don't think just do. Yeah So I start out with why this doesn't work Yeah, because you talk about the difference, you know thought and thinking let's go down that road But why why does it not work to just water it down to don't think just do Because you know, it's impossible. Yes, of course the money is in changing our behavior There is no doubt. However, we also need to learn how to interact differently with our thoughts Because you are gonna think exactly. Yeah, so I'm telling you don't think just do is So misguided it's misguided. It's like choose a positive thought or no bad thoughts or just good thoughts. It's like We it's reductive because we have to learn While we can't we can't control what thoughts pop up We do have to learn how to interact differently with them And yeah, of course the the important thing is is that we do actions that move us in the direction that we want to go But we can't just ignore thoughts Yeah, because they're gonna appear. So I hear it a lot in this community where people will ask I just can't seem to get into a I need something I need to get into a positive mindset from my recovery Right, right. That's another one. I so Joanna has thousands of pet peeves. I've probably heard 112 of them So I'm looking forward to the other 900 But uh I think that that whole like I need to get I can't seem to get it out of this negative mindset And really what you're writing about here is well, you can learn to treat that negative mindset in a different way You don't just change it like let me think positive thoughts or I'll just drop the negative thoughts. You can't do that Doesn't work. Yeah, I mean I think certainly if you're the exception that can like great this, you know, you probably don't need the book But for for 99 percent of us it doesn't work That's just not how it works and we have to be able to act our way into different behaviors And by doing that our mindset is likely to shift Yeah, but only after right you stop interacting so intently and urgently with that negative mindset if you're right And then negative, right? Yeah. Yeah, you can do and we can bring back to the title of the book You can do nothing with that negative mindset and act in opposition to it. If you you know, there's that's that's it is a choice Not a obvious or intuitive choice, but it is a choice. Yes. Yeah. Yeah Let's talk about You know the difference between a thought there's there's two things here because I think this gets into meaty stuff I want to go over the difference between a thought and thinking and then the statement that you made Which is insight is highly overrated. That was a jump out of the chair and yes moment also So let's talk about our skewed relationship and by the way, this isn't just people with anxiety disorders This is almost everybody deals with this problem Where we get this overreliance on thinking we confuse having thoughts and thinking and then we think that thinking is the best thing ever Yes, yeah, let's talk about that a little bit. What's the difference between thinking a thought and thinking? Well, a thought is just you know, it's an experience It's you know, it's it's like an experience that happens in our head We have a thought we often don't control what thought may pop up in our head Or it may be triggered by whatever situation Thinking is the behavior That's the action of engaging with that thought Yeah So you could have the thought You know, I think I use in the book something like oh this peach looks delicious Thinking would be oh that peach looks delicious And maybe you know, I saw a recipe in the new york times and you know, I think i'm gonna make that recipe tonight But what if my kids don't like that recipe and what if I burn the cob? Like that's thinking it's an active process of paying attention and engaging with a thought In that case, you know, and what we might call a negative context Like now I start to build a negative narrative around the peach. I want to use the peach, but I stink at it. I'm terrible I'm gonna ruin that I mean that also happens You can also engage positively or actively in thinking in a positive sense like oh I remember when we went peach picking when I was a kid Farm and it was great. So it goes both ways Is not just negative exactly It's still that active process of engaging And like getting lost in some kind of like story about the peach of whatever it is Yeah, which sometimes happens automatically too. We daydream we wander our minds when that's normal But at some point you would say oh, wait a minute. I I have things to do I can't go down memory lane with peaches today Oh, I'll come back to that later. Right and then you move away. You do nothing with the thought of the peach I'm going to stop working with the peach doll right now Yeah, right now where I say insight is so overrated. I mean, I think look There are a lot of therapies Certainly when I got divorced Having insight into processes was so helpful But I get a lot of clients that come to me who have been in talk therapy for years And they're trying to understand the why That they're having a panic attack about Their kids being in an auditorium in a middle seat of their kids play And the why of it and where did the roots of this and it's like they are, you know, they they are You know deeply troubled that they've wasted so many years And money and time and energy Trying to figure out and get to the root cause another pet pee youth that people searching for the root cause Of something that you know is has probably has so many things that that impact it Yeah, and I think in that situation insight can be there's that I want to dig for the root cause There's also I need to know as much as I can about everything around me So that I can predict and control and know what's going to happen And people might argue like yeah, but insight is a good thing and like you said when you went through your divorce Yes, there was insightful moments that really helped you In the context of this particular podcast Thinking sure thinking is a really useful tool. It's amazing that we can do it We need it like that puts us at the top of the food chain Insight could be super helpful, but those things go off the rails Sometimes they go into a place that they're never meant to be and they become counterproductive that right So it's insight right digging for insight, especially when someone's struggling with an anxiety disorder Or obsessive compulsive disorder where you're shining so much spotlight on Whatever the trigger of the situation is you're just you know marking that over and over to your brain that this is Important, yeah, and it's just reinforcing to your brain. This is important So you're getting more worry about it and meanwhile no behavior is changing Because as you're sitting in the therapy office and I know these therapists are well intentioned But talking about it and trying to understand the why of it It's just like the hole. It's like you're digging a deeper hole Yeah, and some of that is there's two things I want to touch on here One is it's the idea that I have to somehow do something with the experience in my head I have to do something with my thoughts and feelings and internal experiences before I can act But but really that's not necessarily true. That's why I just do nothing is kind of a You don't have to deal with that internal experience in order to change something No, yeah, you don't have to engineer a state of being internally and work with your thoughts and feelings before you do a thing That's not that's a miss. That's a misconception. We don't have to understand Exactly the reality is you're you're prone to having a panic attack at your kid's play Whether you like it or not, that's what is so You know what you want to you know, you don't have to understand it Like that's what is and fighting it by trying to understand it and change it and blah blah blah That's where I want people to do nothing is is trying to Change it and fight it. Obviously we want to change how we react and respond To those sensations when they come up And to the thoughts, but I don't you know, so that's where I want people to do something differently But I want people to do nothing with the thoughts about why is this happening? Does this mean I don't love my kid does this mean I'm a terrible mother Does this mean I'm not as good as that much? Those are the kinds of things that I want people to do nothing with those kinds of thoughts Sure. And the thing that's so awesome that I love how you expanded this concept beyond just anxiety recovery It really becomes a matter of degree. So people who listen to this podcast in this community often will feel like, oh, I have a mental illness I'm broken. I'm so far. I'm so different than my friends and family But really and truly when you read Joanna's book, you get the idea that like I'm not that different They often have the same problems I do. I just have them to a greater degree for now Yeah, so they're in the same loops they might be doing in the age in the same maladaptive thinking behaviors and Stopping behaviors and all those things just you're doing it. Maybe more than they are now Right, you're not all that different from the person sitting next to you in the movie theater Absolutely not. Yeah, like as I point out in the book. I mean we're similar ages None of us grew up knowing how to ride out uncomfortable feelings, which I think is the root of Of this is how to interact differently with distress. None of us grew up knowing how to do that So we've all you know, we've all Have our bag of unhelpful learned behaviors to get rid of distress It's just for some it's become a pattern It may get in the way of Doing what you either need to do or want to do or who you want to be Yeah, so it's interesting to see people will probably buy your book because they're just feeling generally stuck in life But they're the same principles that somebody who's dealing with ocd or panic disorder might follow. It's amazing I think it's it's a really encouraging thing to me. Yeah My brain isn't broken. I'm just in a deeper rut than those guys are. Okay, that's that's a different story, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, my clients will say, you know, I want to buy the book and I'm like, you know, what's in the book We've been doing what's in the book. This is to show every like Your masters of like doing your distress differently. This is for everybody else that doesn't know how to do it yet Yeah, or the whole, you know, you talk about that that you're a trans trans theoretical model change the preparation phase often includes Reading and more reading and more reading and sometimes people in this community get stuck in that So, you know, people might say, well, why are you talking about another book? I mean, believe me, I can have 10 authors a week on this podcast I'm only going to talk about a book that I think could be genuinely helpful. And yes Joanna and I are friends because I know she's generally helpful and I respect her professionally So You know, what does the book do? Is it going to cure you? No, of course not going to cure you But I love the message that like, hey, this sort of sounds like life. This is not just about my ocd or my panic disorder This is sort of life, which is encouraging. I think it's a nice feeling Speaking of feelings, we'll sort of wrap it up with this because I think it's super important We could talk about this for two hours Feelings as a fallback was another great thing that you talked about in the book I think it's that thing where like we fall back on how we feel how I feel must be the must be my indicator of what truth This of what real is I will use my feelings as my gauge For everything problematic Well, not if you're a reality tv producer Emotional reasoning is the fuel of reality tv I've never felt this way about anyone. So I'm going to marry you after two days That is one of the greatest statements. I'm not going to hear anything better this week Emotional reasoning is the rocket fuel of reality tv. Yeah, I mean But for the Rest of us It probably doesn't work. And I don't think it works so well for reality tv because I don't know how many of those couples are still together but That is so common for people in this community too. They get so tied up But it feels but I feel like if I feel it strongly it must be important Yes, or it's a sign. I get the and look I've done it too This is probably how I got involved with that guy ghosted me It was there were signs like it says this is a sign that I'm supposed to do this Or how I feel is a sign that I'm supposed to do this or not do this We can't especially if you have a history of anxiety Disorder and anxiety disorder you struggle. We can't trust how we feel It's just not an accurate gauge or the person who finds that even if they don't have an anxiety disorder They'll call themselves an over thinker. I'm paralyzed by overthinking. Yeah Well, a lot of times it's because you rely so heavily on your emotional state to guide you that it leads you wrong Sometimes we can feel some pretty powerful stuff. That's complete and utter nonsense It's so powerful, you know, right? It's amazing, right? Very good. I I think it's great. I mean, I really enjoyed the book. It's not it's not going to take you 10 years to read this book It's for me Joanne if you listen to Joanna today, that's how the book sounds. She's just a very friendly writer too, which is really great Um, but yeah, it's it's really great. I I think it's it's worth checking out I mean, I I enjoyed it. I appreciated being able to read it the thing that I really Didn't it's funny because you've talked about some of this stuff in the chats that we've had But it was interesting to see you mentioned Virgo signs here Who is here talking about all this very almostoic, you know Daoist, buddhism type very practical philosophy for doing nothing with life And don't look at your emotions as a sign and you literally started the book with a mention of how many Virgo signs you have in your star Chart and I'm like, come on. This is so good That is why you don't exist in your life. And I think that's tremendous Right. That's why the book is like so thorough because I have so many Virgos to explain it And so I have to be so detail oriented and perfectionistic. It was great This is this is not supposed to be in the same book, but it is and I'm here for it I have to put it someplace So good. Yeah, right. Thank you my friend. I appreciate you coming on Thank you for having me. Yeah apps anytime anytime How can people find you? I'll put it up on the screen if you're watching on youtube Um, certainly at my website Joanna Hardis.com. There's a tab that says just do nothing and They can go to that tab they can find and find information about the book. They can also on my website There'll be links to my social media. They can do it there Yeah, that's all good And I will give you copies to give away to your audience. Oh, that would be great So we'll figure something out to do together So if you send me some copies, we'll do something to give them absolutely that will be a fun activity to do together Um, I will come back as always as I do at the end of every podcast episode I'll wrap it up and I'll give you guys links to get to Joanna Also, if you go to the anxious truth.com slash two seven two all of Joanna's links will be there. Awesome See you. Thanks for coming by. Oh my gosh. Thank you. It's always fun. Very good And we are back for a wrap up. I hope you enjoyed hearing from Joanna today I always enjoy when I get a chance to chat with her whether it's professionally or personally Joanna's good at what she does. She's well trained. She's experienced. She's ethical. She's friendly She's accessible and she's never peddling snake oil You're never going to hear that sort of stuff on this podcast or this youtube channel So if you want to know more about Joanna, you want to get to her social media or check out her website or check out this book You can go to the anxious truth.com slash two seven two I will have full show notes from this episode including links to all of Joanna's stuff If you're watching on youtube, you can check out the links in the video description I'll put them there for sure and you can go check her out. Tell her I said hello if you do Buy the book. Don't buy the book. I'm sure she would say the same thing If nothing else, hopefully this 30 minute conversation has maybe taught you something or you had fact You can take something out of it that is useful today and as you go forward in your recovery journey That is it. That is episode 272 the anxious truth in the books again special thanks to my friend Joanna hardest for taking the time to come and talk to us And uh, that's it. I'm gonna end the episode like I usually am going to ask you a couple of favors If you are watching this video on youtube consider liking the video leave a comment Subscribe to the channel hit the notification bell so you know when I upload new content If you're listening to this podcast on apple podcasts or spotify or some platform that lets you rate or review podcasts Leave a five star rating or take a moment and write a review if you enjoy it Because it helps other people find the podcast then more people get help and that's why I do this to begin with Thank you for coming by thanks for spending time as you always do every week I appreciate your support more than you'll ever know and always remember that no matter how you're struggling today If you can just turn a little bit toward recovery And just take one tiny step to show yourself that you are capable more than you think you are Doesn't matter how small that step is it counts. They add up That's it. See you next week. Thanks for coming by