 40 here. One thing that happens when a lot of people get into recovery or get religion, they really start looking down on gossip. And gossip is something that can absolutely save your life. I was just out for a walkabout and I happened to tune into this article from Wyatt by some bloke talking about how reality TV saved his life. But how did reality TV saved his life? It connected him to people he became intrigued by and cared about. We only gossip about people who are significant to us. So the people who come by morning minion at synagogue asking for money, pretty much nobody gossips about them except to say, you know, warn you about some dangerous bloke and maybe he's banned from the shore. But other than that, you don't gossip about people who are way below you. So if you're interested in the leaders of Black Lives Matter or Antifa or Nick Fuentes or Richard Spencer or Ethan Rowell for this dream or that e-personality or that reality star or that actor, it means that you care about people. And ideally, you should primarily be invested in your family and extended family and friends and your immediate community. But you're not really a part of your community until people gossip about you, right? You're not really a member of a shore, not member of a community until people are gossiping about you. So that's the normal path to human connection. And so to completely abstain from gossip is incredibly self-destructive. We need to gossip for information and for connection, right? It's a great way to connect. Now, that doesn't mean that you disclose everything, all right? So when people tell me something on the QT, I keep it in the vault. But it's normal, natural, healthy to, you know, wonder about the dynamics of a workplace or that, you know, wonder about what's going on in your synagogue or your church or your bowling league or your book club or your gym, all right? If you have some gossip going, right, in your gym, all right, that means that you're connected to people in your gym. If you have gossip going about people that you go to church with, it means that you're connected to people in your church community. If you gossip about people you go to synagogue with, all right? That means that you're connected to people in your synagogue community. Okay, I forgot to send out invites, all right, for the hordes of people who want to come on the stream. So here is interview once again with Renee DeResta, online ecosystems, disinformation, censorship debates. At that moment, while somebody tries to figure out what's going on, and then inform, I thought, this is fantastic. This is counter-speech, this is kind of textual vision, right? You're telling the audience, here's a disputed thing, it's staying up, and you see it, we're not taking it down. But here are like other facts you might want to consider. So I started advocating much more for inform, particularly as Hobbit started in 2020, really sort of leaning into inform is really your best bet here. But then now it's all called censorship, you know? So now it's, you know, everything, everything is censorship. It's a very, it's a very frustrating conversation, I think, particularly as somebody who has really, really tried to drill down on the answer to the question, like, what is the best possible design in a system with no neutral, right? And I really have tried to engage particularly with critics, particularly with, you know, friends on opposite sides of this, with the question, what do you want? Right, because you have to be able to answer that question. What is the values that you want to encode into the system, into this platform design, into this ranking or curation system that you think is the correct thing to do? Because people who just bitch about censorship all day long, who just say that, like, a label is censorship, they have no positive vision for, you know, how you do handle things like, what happens when somebody's putting out content telling you that you should drink bleach, right? Which is a thing that really happens. I'm sure you've seen some of these communities, like the, like, MMS Autism, quote unquote, curing nonsense, right? Okay, so I would not want to be part of a community that has people putting out messages that it's a good thing to drink bleach. So those kind of real concrete harms, I'm all for banning, I'm for banning people who dox, I'm for banning people who make violent threats, right? I don't want any of that in my community. I don't want people promoting illegal behavior, but I want a free exchange of ideas. I want a free exchange of ideas about voting integrity, vaccines, COVID lockdowns. I want a free exchange of ideas, but I don't want those, you know, most dramatic forms of their antisocial behavior. What happens when somebody's putting that content out there? Does the platform have a responsibility? If so, what is it? If so, what is the design feature or algorithmic manifestation of that value system that responds to that kind of user-created content? So this is, I think, I'll stop with my, like, so about surround up here, but really I think that is the question. What do you want has to be the question that we ask when people are positioning themselves as defenders of free speech, because it's not as simple as that anymore? No, no. Well, you're ranting to the choir there. So another thing very much related to this that you talked about recently is the motivations of bad actors, I guess, because within, say, those Facebook moms groups, you have people that have discovered that they can gain a lot of clout, you know, maybe make money by provoking and aggravating the very normal human fears and anxieties that are floating around amongst those groups. And we see it amongst the audience of our gurus as well, where people have a natural proclivity, I suppose, towards conspiratorial paranoias and neuroses. And there are people out there who are not, you know, agents for Russia or some other, that they don't necessarily have a coherent agenda, but they've certainly learned that you can get clout, you can become popular, and perhaps make money by provoking those fears through a whole spectrum of stuff. I guess you call it misinformation, but it can just be very highly tortured or twisted information as well. So, you know, how do we, you know, what, how do you think about these actors and those dynamics within these social media systems? That became really a central focus of the work that we did during COVID, right, which was exactly. So it was in recognition of the fact that, as you know, many of the most influential players in the COVID conversation were people who already had large audiences, but more importantly, audiences that trusted them, right. And so wellness influencers, for example, were a, you know, big piece of shaping conversations around vaccines. There were the diehard, you know, vaccines cause autism kind of anti-vaccine people, that was a whole, you know, that's holding all of that aside. There is this phenomenon that you describe, which is often, you know, either sometimes well-meaning people, sometimes people who are profiting, sometimes people who want clout, you know, who are in their, expressing their opinion, expressing their point of view. Okay, so I'm often letting people express their point of view, but an interesting article here in Wired, how reality TV saved my life. Yeah, becoming invested in people, right, caring about people, loving people, it's a great way to turn your life around. So he went to a Bravo convention. That's the taste of that devotion. When I remarked to a woman from California that the most recent season of the Real Housewives of Atlanta is a far cry from the show's pioneering early days. She pauses for a beat, sizes me up. It's still everything, she says. This is no place for non-believers. Loyalty is a requirement in the kingdom of Bravo, but not only that. As one development exec behind Love Is Blind puts it to me, fans want to be involved themselves. Sure enough, during a panel with Potomac's Ashley Darby, a young man approaches the mic and confesses, though it comes off more like a brag, that he has had sex with her ex-husband. Darby's divorce was a major plot point last season. The audience lets out a collective gasp. My initial reaction, oh, shit, dissolves in an instant because I can't escape the fact that I secretly love that this is happening, which is maybe the point, which is maybe exactly the point. This is what makes reality... Right, so for a lot of people who are depressed, running low on energy, it's a absolutely great thing to get something that you care about into your life. So speaking of caring, we've got Duvid back on the show. Duvid, how are you? I'm good for show. So what's, what's to do with you? Don't think I've spoken to you for a couple of weeks. Um, nothing much. I just got to Shavu's tomorrow night. You've been keeping busy working, studying. And have you done any streaming? I'm still doing my regular streaming, although, uh, you know, my networking is, uh, declined. So I was actively trying to network more and, uh, and I stopped and you have still doing streaming. My numbers are about the same. And what have you been talking about? Mostly science, consciousness, uh, spirituality, just topics that interest me. And, uh, you know, my chat is diminished, although my numbers are about the same, maybe picking up. So like, people are definitely watching my videos, although you're not much interaction. There was a Huknasa Safer Torah in a new, uh, new community. I live streamed that out, uh, you know, like Habbad ventured into a new area of the suburbs where there's not much Judaism towards where Michael lives. And, uh, someone donated a Safer Torah and, uh, you know, they finished it. So I went out to that event and, uh, I had Elliot on actually last night, you know, he stepped up his book selling. So we were talking about, uh, selling books. And how's, uh, how's your prodigy, Michael? How's he coming along? Um, I'm not sure he's been busy. So we, we streamed each, we streamed, we were streaming weekly for, for three weeks. And then the last two weeks he had to cancel, I guess, uh, you know, he lives a decent way for like 45 minutes from me. Um, and so I guess he's just busy. Although I did put him to work. He helped out by my parents house. My parents paid him a little bit, just, uh, doing some moving a bunch of boxes. So my dad has this library that, uh, like he expanded, uh, an area of the house and set up like, uh, 20 new bookshelves. Uh, so, uh, we've had a lot of books, you know, like boxed up in various parts of the houses and the construction finally finished. And now we got like 20 new bookshelves. And so, uh, my parents paid Michael to, uh, help move some books, uh, around the house. So he was out at my parents house twice this week. And my parents are about halfway between where, uh, me and me and him love. Okay, great. So my, my subject topic for tonight was inspired by a story I saw in Wired magazine. This guy talked about how reality TV saved his life because he was really depressed. All his relationships had fallen through. And what got him excited and connected again was watching reality TV because he could really, uh, resonate with the people there. And we have a form of reality TV going on with, you know, our streaming world. And, uh, I'm just making the point that you only gossip about people that you have some investment in. So people that you don't care about at all, you don't, you don't waste your breath gossiping about, but it's kind of wired into us that we need to, to gossip for connection and we need to gossip for information. And you can get, you know, wired into a community through gossip. Also, you can destroy a community and destroy yourself through gossip. So like everything else is very much a two-edged sword. There are no solutions in life. There are only trade-offs, but I'm sure you've had times in your life where you've engaged in more gossip and times in your life when you've engaged in less gossip. So what role has gossip played in your life, David? Generally, I've avoided it. Um, you're certainly Jewish circles. It's much more different because you look, we're always getting together and we always see people. We know people like, uh, you know, the larger American impersonal, Goyesh world is pretty impersonal. So I could see gossip having more value, but, um, you know, so like now in the last few years where I've kind of sank into isolation, uh, like I might stream, try to find people who just want to talk about topics, but, uh, like I don't really have any personal relationships with anybody. Um, you know, so I could see like trying to make friends or get into some sort of circle, break grounds, uh, gossip could be valuable. So I don't know if you want to split it up, you know, to dissect the issue, you know, Orthodox Judaism where gossip is frowned upon and their rules, but the uniqueness of Orthodox culture where you have a strong community and like everybody's always in each other's face, uh, where gossip might be different than the larger impersonal world where it's hard to, uh, you know, break the barrier and meet people and gossip could kind of like, uh, you know, break that barrier where you have some sort of personal information about people. Yeah, either one, but let's just start with you. You just said something that would, you know, strike most people as very sad. You talked about you don't feel connected to anyone. So, uh, gossip, isn't gossip a way to, to start forming connections? I mean, you can also engage in gossip that destroys connections, but, uh, it's kind of an austere life to not be connected to people. Is it not? It depends what you mean connected. You mean like emotionally connected. So it's like, you know, I've known Michael two months now and we spoke largely just the facts. And I like the relation because when we speak, we largely just speak purely about Judaism. So, uh, I've not really asked him that many or even any personal questions about himself. Like, you know, his history, who his friends are, um, you'll kind of like need to know basis. And you're for having like a person of purposeful, your progress driven life, it could be better to keep people at an arms distance and, uh, not have that much information about them. So I'm being like sad, like, oh, isn't it lonely? You don't have like deep emotional connections to people. But you could still have professional relations with people. You could still have, uh, meaningful relations with people and, uh, you'll be a just the facts type person and, uh, mind your own business type person. So I mean, generally that's my strategy. And, uh, however I suffer loneliness, uh, you're due to that. So as advantages and disadvantages, advantages that, uh, you're basically, I just sit and read and study and keep on point and focus and only have relations that have some sort of practical mutual benefit and you avoid the drama and, uh, you know, the downside is, uh, isolation and loneliness. Right. So you just, you said a lot there. You talked about, uh, avoiding gossip and having a purpose driven life. But I don't understand a purpose driven life that's not connected to other people. I mean, when I read a book, a great deal of what gives me the, the strength and the enthusiasm to read the book is because I then want to talk about it with people like concrete people, people I see face to face. Like if I didn't have people who I was, you know, emotional about, I, it would be much, it would be 10, 20, 50, 100 times harder for me to get emotional about a book. Right. Books have meaning to me because I can talk about them with people. Uh, you know, beautiful scenery has meaning to me because I can talk about it with people. Uh, you know, making money is meaningful to me because it enables me to see more people. So I just can't relate to a purpose driven life where the purpose isn't primarily people building relations with, with people, developing connections with people. I mean, that's, that's the, the fuel for, for everything. Like I've been getting up around 4am a lot of mornings and doing some work on my blog and then, you know, going out making money and then coming home and doing some live streaming and then, you know, lifting weights and doing some exercise. And so I, I get to have, you know, a ton of passion because I'm connected with people who I, who I care about and I see if I didn't see people that I really cared about on a daily basis and I've had that circumstance way too often in my life that I just feel absolutely drained in energy. So perhaps you can talk to me about how, how does one have a purpose driven life if people aren't the purpose. I had to type it in to see who the quote came from. And I was actually surprised that it's Eleanor Roosevelt with the, you know, great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people and gossip is largely related to people, maybe somewhat related to events occurring among people. So I like ideas. We've been talking for a few years now, almost exclusively about ideas. Very rarely do we discuss people, very rarely, you know, almost never do I ask you about personal things except in relationship to ideas or topics. I might, you know, ask you like personal questions about your belief system, you know, in relation, because we talk about those kind of ideas, but you know, a few years now, like I've never really dealt that much in to ask you that many personal questions. And we're still talking, you know, I have friends or associates and, you know, we talk, we, you're concerned, how's your health, how's your business. Then it relates back to what we were talking last time about taking instruction. So, you know, just practical, like, oh, like, I'm talking with Luke. So you'll let's take instruction. So either you know something, and you'll give me instruction, or I know something, I'll give you instruction, as opposed to you'll let's talk about mutual people and gossip. So I assume you've heard the Eleanor Roosevelt quote and I don't know if you have a reaction to that. Yeah, yeah, I've heard it. I think it's completely wrong. I think anyone who doesn't care about people is just, it's just sadly, sadly, lacking in humanity. And if you care about people, then you're going to be interested in talking about people. You can't care about something and not want to talk about it. So I think she's completely wrong that what she's describing is, you know, some conception of human beings who just are not interested very much in other human beings, which, which strikes me as sad. Yeah, I doubt it, because I mean, if you say like, Kara, if you're talking like, Pesed, you say like, well, you know, would you help a person in need? Would you be charitable? Or even the level of relationship to mean like, well, what is gossip? Gossip is largely useless information. So I mean, that's generally that kind of like, well, you, you want to know what I think is like, no, I don't want to know what you think. Like why the hell I don't want to know what you think, you know, what you think is not that valuable. And so, you know, if you're thinking like on gossip, and especially like, do I want to know what you think about, you know, you in general, like anybody, you know, even my close friends or family members, that if you, you waste a bunch of time where people are expressing how they think and feel about various topics, you say like, well, it's meaningful to our relationship, because I care about you. I'm willing to listen to how you think and feel about a bunch of topics, where how you think or feel really makes no difference. And, you know, so it means care, like I care enough about you to inform you that how you think or feel about these things doesn't really matter. It's not going to benefit your life. And, you know, for me to even pretend that I care how you think or feel about these topics does not necessarily, you know, mean that I care about you more. It's just that it's just a sign of bad character. You're saying I care about you more, because you're like, I believe in character refinement, I believe that we could become better people. And then we have to take the hard reality that it doesn't really matter how we think or feel about a bunch of issues. That's why it's called GASA. So if you if you have a neighbor who is, you know, unhappy because I don't know, you walk around naked in your house and, you know, he has to look at it or you're not, you know, cleaning your yard, or you have unsavory people coming over, or you're playing music too loud, or you, you know, have unsightly vehicles out front of your place. Like getting that GASA would, you know, help you navigate that situation so it doesn't blow up. If you go into work and you smell bad, all right, someone who pulls you aside and says, Hey, you really need to do something about your hygiene. You really need to take a shower every morning. You need to wear deodorant. Or someone takes you aside and said, Hey, your clothes are just inappropriate for the office. Or someone takes you aside and said, Hey, I know you think that you were saying interesting or funny or amusing things to your coworkers, but several of them have taken very great offense that they went to the boss and complained about you. These basic forms of GASA that it can be absolutely life saving for someone. If it's pointed out to them that they're unconsciously doing things that are aggravating, infuriating other people. It's categorization. You're talking about rebuke, not GASA. So in those case, you're saying like the person necessitates rebuke. And you're like, we're talking about muster or like, you know, telling people that you're like, you know what the problem with you is? And that's not GASA. That's rebuke. So I mean, GASA would be me and you discussing someone else as opposed to directly confronting it. And you know, then you have, you know, within Jewish law, kind of like the laws of lush and horror. So if it's a matter to say, like, well, I have this issue with my neighbor, but I'm scared that if I rebuke them, they might shoot me. So I'm, you know, I'm telling my buddy Luke about it and he's listening to me. And if that falls into GASA, if like, you know, if there's no benefit to it, like a needs to know basis, like I'm telling GASA about my neighbor, because I'm telling Luke, like I'm thinking of rebuke in my neighbor, but I might end up, you know, getting shot, God forbid or something like that. But I don't see if you see what I'm saying, like, that's not GASA, that's rebuke. I disagree, but you made your point. Let me just, I put into Google is GASA good. And here's what comes up. So for benefits of GASA being that keep you stress free, this is the top, top answer in Google. Google GASA helps build great bonds. So GASA is a form of connection. It also releases feel good hormones like serotonin. We are social creatures. We are actually wired towards GASA. So GASA helps us understand who's trustworthy and who might help us survive oxytocin. The bonding hormone is also released in the body during GASA. That's why it helps build trust and a better bond. It generates empathy. So sharing experiences of hurt by another person with someone close can help lessen the difficult emotions there by reducing the burden of shame. Helps in problem solving. If you're going through a tough situation or you see your friends in a tough situation and you can offer help or guidance or support, sharing struggles within a social or work setting with someone close to you, you might get a new perspective, but also keeps anxiety at bay, right? You've got things building up inside of you. You're bound to feel anxious and stressed and venting, right? Communicating what's going on will usually help calm you down. I mean, if you're bitching all the time, it's a red flag. Too much gossiping can lead to a group like mentality where you're afraid to do anything individual. You can become overly critical. So definitely don't want to be known as the biggest gossip at work, but just looking through Google right now is gossip good. Next result, NBC News. Psychologists say gossiping is a social skill. I had a good gossiper, someone who people trust with information, someone who uses that information in a responsible way. BBC, why gossiping at work is good for you. While some gossip can be petty and unprofessional, other types of gossiping can be fun, normal, even healthy and productive. Next result, academic study. Gossip drives social bonds and helps people to learn. Next academic study, spread the word. Gossip can be good for you. Positive psychology. What is positive gossip? Then the Atlantic. Gossiping is good. Time magazine. Why do people gossip? Here's what science says. Gossip staves off loneliness and anxiety, facilitates bonding and closeness. Next result, gossiping is scientifically proven to be good for us. It's a form of vicarious learning. And yes, gossip is good for your mental health. So if you do it the right way, there's no need to feel guilty about it. So any thoughts of why all these different media and academic organizations are making the argument that gossip is good for you, David? Yeah, I mean, because I spent so much time as an ultra-orthodox Jew, I hear gossip, and to me, it's just like a sin. Gossip, is that really less or less, in order to do the sin? So I got just a natural aversion to you're saying, well, of course, gossip is a sin. I don't sin. But with that differential, why in orthodox Judaism, gossip is basically just clearly a sin that requires to be avoided. Oh, it's a difficult sin. The other Talmud mentions that like Lushonora is one of the sins that basically everyone's guilty on. But I would differentiate from an orthodox Jewish culture where you have a strong community, and everybody comes together and kind of knows each other, and you're more connected to people. You go, you pray to each other. Often, even people you don't like, you'll get into your close vicinity. You're like if you made a kid-ish or got married or had a kid, or even like a Sabbath meal, the nature of the community, there might even be people you don't like that get through and are at your event. And so there's not more rules about gossip and it's generally seen as a negative thing and even like straight up from Jewish law is just a sin. In secular culture, American culture is much more impersonal. There is no greater community that you're part of outside of maybe some work situations or education as a youth, and it's hard to break the barrier. It's hard to meet people. It's hard to be part of the community. You know, so like if you're orthodox Jewish, you go to synagogue, there's hundreds of people that are part of your community, whether you like them or not. If you're secular, probably only have like your family, a handful of people you work with, or if you're an educational scenario. And then besides that, it's extremely difficult to meet people. It's extremely difficult to break the personal barrier. And so I think that's probably where the disconnect is, you know, with an orthodox Jewish culture where it's just like a sin. Like, you know, how could you possibly think that there's something good to gossip? It's a sin to, you know, that'd be like, you're saying there's benefits to like having an affair or something like that to secular culture, where it's so impersonal and difficult to develop personal relations with people where something like gossip could be seen as a beneficial way to make more personal relationships. Well, one, no more definition of an orthodox Jew, someone who abysed by the Shokhan-ar-Rukh, 16th century companion of Jewish law, and the Shokhan-ar-Rukh doesn't even mention gossip. Like, gossip did not receive much a lucky consideration in Judaism until the 19th century, when the Hafez Haim did something that was logically ludicrous. He took agarita, like all these stories in the Jewish tradition, and he turned it into halakha, which is no, you know, sound basis for halakha. And, you know, other rabbis at the time thought it was absolutely ridiculous what he'd done, but it became a popular success with, you know, not very bright orthodox Jews. But as far as the Jewish tradition, gossip receives very little halakic attention. It's not much of a theme in the Gomorrah, and the handful of examples where you find in the Gomorrah any, you know, even minor attempts to try to legislate against gossip. So this whole idea that orthodox Judaism considers gossip a big sin, this is an invention of a ludicrous experiment in the 19th century by the Hafez Haim just taking stories and turning them into a halakha, which is no sound or fundamental or a real basis for halakha. It's just one of those attention-seeking things that, you know, rabbis do. Like, how can I get attention? Like, how can I revolutionize the Jewish tradition? Ah, I'm going to do something completely new. I'm going to take stories, and I'm going to turn them into laws. But anyone who knows anything about Jewish law realizes that in the Jewish tradition, prior to the ludicrous experiment of the Hafez Haim, Lashon HaRah, gossip received almost no halakic attention. Well, I mean, you diminish the nature of the sages in the Hafez Haim because, like, Jewish law, like, the Shulkin Ark is, you know, a book written by a man of Yosef Karo, and the reality is that just like, you know, the Talmud, you study Talmud with Rashi, you study the Shulkin Ark with the Mission of Borough written by the Hafez Haim. So, I mean, you could say that about the Hafez Haim, but like, relative to orthodox Judaism, the Hafez Haim has been canonized, and Jewish law, the Shulkin Ark, has been encompassed. Everywhere I was in Yeshiva, Jewish law was always, except for some Hasidic circles, was universally studied with the Mission of Borough. And in most places, when you become a rabbi, it is based upon mastery of the Mission of Borough written by the Hafez Haim. So, I mean, you might be correct in the sense of, I mean, even the Hafez Haim himself says that, although he goes to great lengths, you know, to quote all the Biblical verses and try to show that it's Jewish law. But I would say that it has been codified, and the Mission of Borough is basically the modern-day Shulkin Ark, that your Jewish law, from even to modern orthodox, they probably straight look at the Mission of Borough to say, you know, what's the rule, and they look at the Hafez Haim, and what he says, that's the rule. Well, if gossip is such a big sin in orthodox Judaism, how come it gets almost no attention in the Talmud? It gets almost no attention in, you know, the various rabbinic codes, it gets virtually no attention in Maimonides' Mission of Torah, right? It doesn't really get any attention till the Hafez Haim comes along about 3,000 years into Judaism. So, the prior 3,000 years of Judaism, Judaism apparently did just fine without need to legislate against gossip in any significant or detailed way. Suddenly you have an explosion in the 19th century with the Hafez Haim, but for 3,000 years of Judaism, it got virtually no attention. That could be true by saying that's irrelevant for orthodox Judaism, because, you know, we don't follow the Talmud, we follow our modern orthodox rabbis, and since the Hafez Haim did it, I mean, the Hafez Haim is basically considered the saint of the pre-war generation and has been codified and basically, by definition, today an orthodox rabbi is someone who's mastered the Mission of Borough. So, I mean, even if you're right, that no one mentioned it beforehand, that the Hafez Haim has been canonized as our saint, Jewish law has been codified in his commentary on the Mission of Borough, and has largely been accepted universally among orthodox Jews. So, I mean, it's irrelevant whether it was what it was beforehand, because we follow our rabbis of the current generation. Relevant that basically someone invented, you know, a whole new way of understanding Jewish law in the 19th century with very little precedent for the preceding 3,000 years of Judaism, it seems to me that quite relevant. You suddenly had an explosion in the late 19th century from the Hafez Haim that virtually had no precedent. I mean, it was just radical, in a sense, as reformed Judaism. Yeah, but I was saying, like, orthodox Judaism to some extent is, you know, Catholic in that sense, and the Hafez Haim was from the greatest sages of the generation, and he was accepted, and the vast majority of the sages accepted him. And, you know, so it's not our position to, you know, predate and you're kind of like, you don't get to argue with the round bomb, like your orthodox Jew, you don't get to argue with the Hafez Haim. And, you know, from that perspective, like, you know, what I'm saying, so you got your open orthodox, like you got to rely on someone like Mark Shapiro. Mark Shapiro admitted he couldn't get a job in an orthodox, even with his Harvard degree, he couldn't get a job in a Jewish day school, not even a single Jewish orthodox day school. Oh yeah, that's right, he did. Yeah, yeah. And we were saying, because, you know, Mark Shapiro, but he doesn't get to argue with the Hafez Haim, and he does, because, you know, like it's America. But, you know, in that sense, like, you know, like, no, I went to enough orthodox schools, and like maybe I felt like you did at some point, but you're saying like, no, I mean, like being a rabbi today means mastering the Hafez Haim understanding, even at your local young Israel, modern orthodox synagogue, if you have a question in Jewish law, they look at the mission of the world, like the Hafez Haim, that's considerable. That, you know, Mark Shapiro could write his books. But, you know, Mark Shapiro is an open orthodox rabbi. And I mean, that's fine. But that's why I'm saying from orthodoxy, like, you know, I lived in, you know, Brooklyn, and the Hafez Haim was our saint. He was on our milk boxes. Lush and horror things were on, you know, basically every wall. And there's not a single orthodox Yushiva. I studied 10 different orthodox Yushivas. There's not a single orthodox Yushiva I studied in that part of the curriculum did not include studying the Hafez Haim. So, I mean, you don't have to say like, well, you don't hold like the Hafez Haim, but I was making the point, okay, we use the word orthodox Judaism. He's like, okay, you consider yourself an orthodox Jew, but you don't hold like the Hafez Haim. And you say, okay, well, the Yushivish community, we could play around with words. But you know what I'm saying? Like, certainly within a wide spot of the black hat community or some form of what you're going to call orthodoxy, the Hafez Haims are saint, are beacon of Jewish law. And he straight up says, gossip is a sin. And, you know, I lived in those communities. Like, and, you know, I have the mission of I'm sure you don't have a mission of borough on yourself. You never studied the mission of borough. I have. I've got it as a virtual document. I don't have the physical document. I didn't have many physical physical. Whoever recommended it to you wasn't kind of like straight up like these are the rules. It wasn't like, well, the Hafez Haim, like you could disagree with them. But it was like, you're just like the Shulkanar, the mission of boroughs considered Jewish law. And generally, if it says that you should try to do it. Oh, everyone tries to instruct you in traditional Jewish life. Everyone's an expert. Everyone's trying to tell you, yeah, this is the way it is. This is the law. But in orthodox Jewish life, most people are ignorant. Like most people have no understanding of history. They have no understanding of, you know, the Gomorrah of the ongoing rabbinic tradition. I mean, most people aren't very bright and aren't very loaded. But they often feel very free to tell you, you know, how you should understand or how you should practice, even if they don't know anything. So even plenty of rabbis don't know very much. Yeah. Even your local modern orthodox synagogue, if there's a question of Jewish law, the rabbi is probably going to, of any text, even Kabad, most likely use the mission of borough. Even like whoever you consider your rabbinic advisory, you know, I don't know if you're going to call Mark Shapiro, but I would guess in four out of five of the modern orthodox places, if you had some form of Jewish law question of anything from kosher to the holiday to praying to anything, the text they're going to go to is, in fact, the kafatskaim, the mission of borough. Yeah, that's true, particularly in modern orthodox or Yashivish circles, not so much in Hasidic Judaism. So your experience in orthodox Judaism is it primarily in the Yashivish crowd, the Hasidic community? Where is most of your experience? Mix. I mean, because my learning experience was in the Yashivish crowd. My living experience was among Hasidim. So I learned in Litvish Yashivas, and I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. I'm just saying like, I spent three years in Yashiva, and like, I would have been thrown out of Yashiva if I said what you said. Like, you do not get to argue with the kafatskaim. And like, I didn't know who the kafatskaim was before I went to Israel. And like almost definitionally, like every Jewish law is the study of the kafatskaim. I mean, obviously there's the Shulkinarik and there's the Mishnatora. But like of the most recent authoritative texts, it is the mission of borough. Like, there's more, you know, modern commentary from Moisha Feinstein didn't make a commentary on the Shulkinarik. He only made Shilas and Shivas answers to questions. The kafatskaim wrote an authoritative commentary on the Shulkinarik. And generally that, you know, like within the Yashiva community, that's the kafatskaim is considered Jewish law. And he's like, you don't get to argue with the kafatskaim. He says that that's the law, you know, maybe you want to send in, but you know, so that's why I mentioned, because we're talking about gossip, that in the Kasidic circles, gossip is not considered as bad. And a lot of people, you would say, no, I mean, I'm, I'm Kasidic. We don't follow the kafatskaim. We follow, you know, the Shulkinarik or Rav or various Kasidic people that would still say, you know, Washington is bad, but not to the extent that the kafatskaim, but you're just because we're talking gossip, I spent three years in Yashiva, and even, you know, here in, you know, my local modern orthodox community, you're like, kafatskaim, man, like gossip is a sin. And so I mean, I didn't mean to be like pushing on you, like you have to follow the kafatskaim, but I was making the, you know, directing in that community, like you, you say gossip, and I just think like kafatskaim sin. Yeah, no, it's good that you said what you did. We're not disagreeing. We're just emphasizing different perspectives. And what this brings to mind is that one of the biggest misconceptions in Orthodox Jewish life is that questions are welcomed, right? Certain questions are welcomed. All right. Particularly if you're willing to, you know, simply accept the answers that you're given, but also the questions are not welcomed in Orthodox Jewish life. So I'm not sure if you got into the same sort of trouble I did initially laboring under the misconception that questions are welcomed in Orthodox Jewish life that they're welcomed by some rabbis in some circumstances, like there are some rabbis who really like to engage with a very broad range of questions and who even enjoy being challenged. But generally speaking, right? If you're not careful in the questions that you ask in Orthodox Jewish life, it's going to read down to hurt you. Any thoughts on that? Well, that and questions are encouraged in the sense that like, yeah, there's a lot of things you need to know. And, but like in the sense of authority in the saying, you can't question the authority of the kafatskaim in Yeshiva circles. So you could question like, oh, I have a question, like, can I say this or can I do this? Can you not? And then the person looks up in the mission of burrow and is like, oh, it says here, you can't do it. And then like, well, you can't really like go beyond questioning it. He was like, well, are you Orthodox Jew? And you're going to follow the rule? Or you say, I don't care, I'm going to do what I want, even though you've heard the answer. And then in Yeshiva, there's theoretical. So you could question like, I wonder why the kafatskaim says it. But you know, the authority structure is basically solid. So that's what I said, like your points about like the Talmud doesn't matter, because we follow the rabbis of our generation. And I mean, the orthodoxy is a tough word, but it's saying the orthodoxy assumes the acceptance of that authority structure. And you're not allowed to question that authority structure. And so in that sense, like some questions are allowed, other questions aren't. And did you get into trouble asking inappropriate questions? Or did you, did you realize what the score was fairly quickly? Well, I figure that out right away. And I ask questions like theoretically. So I mean, as I said, like as long as you don't question authority, you could ask. I mean, like even your questions, like, like, but doesn't say that in the Talmud or like these things, you could even be like argumentative. But in that sense, like nothing that you said wouldn't necessarily like, you know, got you in trouble in Yeshiva, except if you were like afterwards telling your classmates, like, let's lead a rebellion against the Cuppets Chaim. In that sense, like, yeah, if you try to read like, I mean, because then basically you're saying like, this is just stupid. Why do we have to follow these rules? And from the perspective, I mean, the orthodoxy is a tough word to put in that sense. But I've even put like, even from the modern orthodox, the orthodox perspective, the Cuppets Chaim saying it is basically as good as the Torah saying it. Yes. Yes. And so like, you're saying like, well, exactly right. As the Cuppets Chaim says it, you know, like, well, you're saying like, they're all, I mean, there is like the theory of Jewish law and making rulings. But from the late point, you have to accept the Cuppets Chaim the same way you accept the Talmud and the Torah. Yeah. So it extends essentially what is God's word to basically 3000 years of the Jewish tradition is in effect, you know, particularly if you're a lay Jew, not particularly thoughtful or learned, the whole thing, you know, up to the, to the, you know, sermon from your rabbi, if he's in line with the Gadolah Torah, you know, the great ones of Torah, you know, he is essentially, you know, passing on transmitting the divine word. So the entire, you know, Jewish tradition is essentially, you know, linked in to God in the final analysis. We've talked about this in the past quite a bit, like in terms of like rabbi shopping and even like, you know, like so, you know, you had your issue, like, you're like running a porn site or something, you know, years back to the end. So if it's something where you, you're saying, well, what rabbi gave you permission? And he would say, well, well, I didn't ask. It's different than to say, well, I asked my rabbi and my rabbi said, no, and I'm doing it anyways, or verse, like, it's a clear ruling of the community and you're going against the rules. And then, you know, so if you're in Yeshiva, or depending on your status in the community, you have some leeway to go against the rabbis. You feel like, well, I'm weak. I got to make a living. And, you know, maybe in your case, like, I mean, I think you covered in your book, we talked about it, like in that case, where like, eventually, you know, maybe they like clamped down on you and the rabbi, you know, like, Asia Torah, whatever got forbid, like that same rabbi, you took your to fill in a way or something like that. It's like, these are the rules. You're not following it. You're out. And, you know, to some extent, you could rabbi shop, you could be a bad Jew, you could have status in the Jewish community, be like, well, I'm weak. I know that I'm not supposed to do this by do it anyways. And then there's like the heredity, where you start saying, well, I think the rabbis are wrong, that you're arguing with the rabbis ruling. And to that level, like, yeah, I mean, questions are good, but questioning authority is not good. Now, here's another problem that I had in Jewish life, I'd sometimes meet, you know, charismatic, fascinating rabbis, and I'd want to become a devoted follower. But that there would be essentially all sorts of requirements. If you if you want to stay connected to a great rabbi, you have to, you know, act and speak in alignment with his, his, you know, perspective, his views, his, his, you know, his practice where he's holding. So did you at times try to like follow his rulings? Because there is that like law and judgment type sense. And, you know, so you're putting it in a less formal way, because it may even be harder for your non orthodox Jewish friends even to fathom. But when you put it, you would defraise it like you have to follow his rulings. Yeah, if you want to be a Talmud, if you want to be a devotee of a rabbi, you, you need to follow his rulings. So did you get into, I don't know, some mixed feelings? I'm sure you've encountered rabbis that you wanted to be a devoted follower to, but then that came with substantial requirements in how you lived your life. How did you square those things? I played the game over, like rabbi shopping. I did my best and I was weak. And then like I held my breath on like, you know, Friday nights or Sabbath and lined up to shake the rabbi's hand, you know, like praying that the rabbi's not, God forbid, you know, get like, yell at me like, you're a bad Jew. You know, so like, I mean, it's basically like in synagogue, like, yeah, I think I'd go to my local synagogue. And, you know, like maybe, you know, like my rabbi's been informed about like all the bad stuff I've been doing. But like, you know, I would probably Friday night, like line up and shake the rabbi's hand and chances are the rabbi is not going to publicly rebuke me in front of everybody. And, you know, that'll be it. It was like, okay, like I'm weak, I could be doing better. I should be doing better. I accept. You know, we talked about the hand, the handshaking ceremonies. So you go to your local Orthodox synagogue. And you're either going to make after the services, everyone's going to line up and shake the rabbi's hand. And you're either going to make a public statement by not lining up and shaking the rabbi's hand, or you're going to line up with everybody else and shake the rabbi's hand, which is some sort of like public acknowledgement of accepting the rabbi's authority. And it's very unlikely the rabbi is going to publicly chastise you. It's unlikely that the rabbi is going to like even tell his congregants like to, to avoid you and just like, okay, like you're a weak Jew and we're all weak and like, you know, we should be doing better. But, and I don't know if you do that. Like, you know, typically, like, you know, you, you know, if you're the type guy that you stand there, like, Oh my God, like, I can't believe all these people lining up to shake the rabbi's hand. Or is there like typically like, no, you line up and you shake the rabbi's hand. I have not been someone who lined up to shake the rabbi's hand. I have not. I have chosen not to be a devotee of any particular rabbi. I keep, you know, I keep some moderate amount of distance. How about you? Did you, you obviously did line up for a time? I almost always would shake the rabbi's hand, you know, like, I mean, the sense like, you know, so if I, you know, if I came out to any synagogue, that's, you know, partly okay. So like, you're so like, why didn't I go to synagogue? Because you're like, I'm going to have that issue. Because, you know, basically even my, you know, local young Israel, everyone's going to line up and shake the rabbi's hand. And either I'm going to line up and shake the rabbi's hand and the implications of what that means. Or I'm going to publicly be from like the handful of people that don't line up and shake the rabbi's hand. Implications of that. So I mean, if you're going to synagogue, if you're going to these places and you're publicly, and that's probably like part of the distance, why I have a hard time bringing myself to go to synagogue, because it's, it's that, you know, it's that moment really where everyone lines up and shakes the rabbi's hand. And not necessarily like anything on the rabbi, I mean, might be a nice good guy, but you know, the symbolically, you know, what that means. Am I going to fall in line like, like everyone else and line up and shake the rabbi's hand? Or am I going to publicly like make the statement, I came to synagogue and I was from like the only people who didn't line up to shake the rabbi's hand? Or am I just not going to go? Yeah. Now, what's your experience with being publicly chastised by rabbis? It's almost never happened. It happened to me like once in like a facetic camp. And the rabbi actually apologized because it was, I mean, very rarely do people publicly chastise you. It's that you know, embarrassing someone in public is a big sin. So usually they'll do it in private. And then, you know, you could try to like avoid rabbis, you could see the chastisement coming. And I mean, so LA, you have the, you probably have the privilege where you there, you could be part of the community, you could go to a minion where there's not like, you know, like this big like subservient to rabbi culture, or like, I don't know, like, I mean, I've never pressed you too much on your connections or your friends. But you know, like maybe like your local minion doesn't have that like everyone lines up and shakes the rabbi ceremony, and that you've found a community where you don't have to, you know, either you'll go through that or publicly, you're not doing that. So in New York, you know, there were so many synagogues or you get that you could get the hint, you can get the feel where you're going to be chastised. Like, I mean, it's unlikely. I mean, you're doing something so bad if you're dangerous to the community. I mean, if you're just the, you're falling short in your Judaism, but you're not endangering the community, it's very unlikely like the rabbis are going to make an intervention against you. But if you're frequently congregation or community, and you're outside of the community standards, you could usually feel the chastisement is coming, and then, you know, duck out before the chastisement. But you know, I read in your book, you've talked about, you know, the chastisement and I haven't mentioned like ironically, the name slipping me that that rabbi who you got forbid to kick you out started out here in Michigan. I remember when I was at University of Michigan, he came and preached there. I forgot the young Israel rabbi that went on to be the head of like, yeah, rabbi wild. Yeah, rabbi wild, or something like that. And I don't know if he made a public declaration or if he called you in to rebuke or if you could have got the hint, if you had gotten the hint a little bit early, and just stop showing up that you could have avoided, you know, the chastisement. And you know, so like in Israel, a few times in New York, I had rabbis, you know, call me in. And you know, chastisement is basically you are not cutting slack, like you have to shape up like you're minimally like this, this and this, immediately, you know, they'd be like a list of God forbid, you're like a list of like, you know, 10 things, but like immediately starting instantly, like you have to change this, this and this. And like over the next period of time, a list of things and like, you know, rabbis, the community, they could be like that. But they're not going to like, you know, hit you at your house or something like that. So I mean, it's usually when you're actively in a community, and you're always there. And it would be the rabbi would be some sort of rep representative of community standards and very rabbi, rarely, you know, usually the rabbi has like a Gabbi. And you know, in Israel even, like I remember the story of, you know, it's positive this African convert rabbi Gamedza from Swaziland, the prince's son, who went to Oxford, and he said he was like driving down the street. And one of the rabbi body, Yosef's like, you know, pulled over in like a car. And he was like, the rabbi wants to see you. He was like, which rabbi like, you know, like rabbi, rabbi body, Yosef, he's like, when he's like, now get in. And like, and he got in this car and it was positive, he wanted to, you know, say, encourage him and, you know, being a convert and it was positive. But, you know, when I was in Israel, or New York, there were a lot of rabbis who called me and it was positive because I was a Balchuva, and they wanted to encourage me. And I assumed like as a convert in Los Angeles, there's probably a lot of rabbis that have, at least over periods of time, that have wanted to speak to you. And maybe it's been positive, you know, some that are representative of the rabbi, we're like, oh, you know, they come speak to the rabbi, or you'll come to this event. And usually it's positive. Although occasionally, like, I mean, if you're involved in usually, you know, you're involved in questionable behavior. So like, if you're going to be called by the rabbi and chastised, like, it's almost always like something you know is coming. Yeah. Yeah. And so I've been, I've had rabbis seek me out because they wanted connections to people in Hollywood or in the entertainment media industry. So that's, that's occurred. Other times rabbis have enjoyed my blog or wanted to meet me or just interact with me, you know, via email or social media. And then probably half a dozen occasions, you know, rabbis have, you know, lambasted me, but not name me from, from the beamer, from the pulpit, because I would be criticizing this or that, it's going on in the Orthodox Jewish community. And so they would, you know, they would essentially blast me from their pulpit as I would then blast them from my pulpit of the, of the blog. So that's kind of an interesting experience when you're sitting in the pew and, you know, the rabbi out there on the beaver is kind of going after you. And, you know, sometimes the rabbis were right and I was wrong. So obviously I'm not, you know, this great moral figure. What I mean, I mean, God forbid in your book, you mentioned the time at Ashutora where the rabbi told you into his office and he's got like a whole file and like confiscated your Tefillin or something. I don't know if that's the only time that happened. Yeah. Yeah. I had several meetings with the rabbis like that, but often it would just be, I would break news, for example, about, you know, some rabbi who was a sexual predator and essentially his deeds had been covered up by the local Orthodox Jewish community. And so I would go after the community for, you know, just allowing this guy to be, to be a predator for decades. They would just kind of cover it up and move him on. And then when I would expose it, then they would, you know, denounce me for exposing it and it kind of would force their hand that then, you know, the rabbi would have to resign and the rabbinic organizations would say that, oh, we have a zero tolerance policy for sexual predatory behavior, but it's a lie. I mean, they just cover it up and let this guy move around the community for decades. So it got quite complicated and quite heated at times. Yeah. I mean, when you were talking about your rules and we disagreed on that point about, like, eventually, I forget the word you use, like being double crossed or something that eventually, like all people will double cross you or betray everyone will betray you. Betray you. And I said, I didn't have that experience because I considered betrayal about something that was actually agreed upon. But if you, but if you considered somebody, you know, I didn't use the word gossip then, but, but, you know, use the word gossip, but meaning, you know, talking trash about you behind your back, bad mouth and you behind your back. And he's like, well, yeah, almost everyone I know at some point has bad mouth behind my back. And I see like, you like high T and Halsey been going at me and Twitter for months now. And, you know, just like messages and in the sense like, okay, like almost any orthodox rabbi in a public comment would bash me or trash talk me the probably like you also like in certain aspect like a rabbi might say good things about you. But in terms of like, you know, being like authoritative, or like a good role model for what it means to be a Jew, if it was culled upon, yeah, I would assume like, almost any rabbi, including my own rabbis would probably like badmouth me if they had to defend Judaism, or in terms of like the, you know, the education of children, teaching kids and they're saying like, that's not our path. And, you know, saying like, look, those dudes like doing Hinduism or your various things or just like, that's not our path. And that they would be more than happy to publicly badmouth me. But at the same time, like say, you know, a lot of rabbis are very careful in their speech, and would probably defend me. It's like, it might, you know, that's, oh, he's a half Jew, he's a Bolsheva, he's a convert, he's trying his best, might sing my praises and, you know, the good qualities or like the charity I've done. However, they would say like, yeah, you're not a model for like how they're educating their children in that sense. So I mean, that, I mean, when you, when you said betrayal, did you mean gossip and badmouthing as the most common form of betrayal, or you're saying you're getting betrayed in all sorts of ways? Well, people will always disappoint you because people are human. And so we will also tend to, you know, overestimate our outstanding with other people. And so you said betrayal, not disappointment. Well, disappointment, intense disappointment is often experienced as betrayal. Betrayal meaning betrayal is a hyperbolic term. And I don't believe that it's an accurate term ever. Betrayal simply means that other people have different priorities than what we expected. But people's lived experience is, you know, you will on a regular basis feel betrayed, let down. So you may have done work really hard for a boss, and then suddenly they let you go. And you feel, whoa, you know, I could have coasted on this job. I didn't have to work so hard. And I worked hard. And now they're letting me go. I mean, that's outrageous. Or you're, you know, you're, you're dating someone and you're making plans to get married. But you don't realize that, you know, the other party is making plans to break up with you. And so you're, you know, building towards a future that is not there. And it's going to feel like betrayal. Or a good friend says, you know, hey, I can't, I can't be friends with you anymore, because, you know, you said or did these things publicly. And to, you know, maintain my standing in the community after, after cut you off and distance myself from you. And that's going to feel like, feel like a betrayal. So betrayal is a hyperbolic term that we use when other people's priorities are not what we expected. Well, I put it, I mean, if we make it personal, it's like, no, I don't, I don't think you betrayed me. You mean, it's like, disappoint me. Okay. Like in the sense, like, okay, like we're streaming and I mean, like relatively, you were nice to me and you started me in it, but the hopes, like, I assume we both had much bigger hopes than we've achieved. And, you know, we've been working with each other off and on for a period of time and even, you know, for a period where we started off, your numbers were much bigger. And it was possible that the success could have been substantially higher. And, you know, presumably we were both disappointed, you know, like the fame and the money, you know, did not come were both on much smaller numbers than the period a few years ago. And then even a level that, you know, we probably both bad mouthed each other on streams, maybe not purposely, but, you know, certainly in terms of like, expressing disappointment or even with your detractors or trolls in the chat that will get, you know, tell me how you really feel about loop forward. And, you know, like, you know, the problem with loop forward. And like, in that sense where a person could be drawn to gossip and bad mouthing, but I still want to put that at the level of betrayal. But I mean, it gets back to the point of gossip and saying, like, oh, because that mean, like, and like, I'm used to doing it, like it's kind of like Jewish stick, where, you know, basically like, you know, like anytime someone mentions loop forward, I could just say like these benevolent awesome things like, Oh, look for mama schizotic, you know, he's a great guy, and try to like boost you up. And, you know, like you talk to like, you know, like get a woman out of your league, like do it is your friend, like I would buy for you, and pretend like you're a much better person than you actually are in order to help you, you'll get a chance in Parnosa, or a woman, or in certain manners, or maybe be like, Don, I got to be honest, they're like, I like loop forward is a nice guy. But like, you know, like, I know, I mean, he's got all these problems. I'm going to inform you about them. And I mean, so that's where you have the actual rules of the cup, it's kind of the complications. But I mean, I think we talked about then the past also, where there's like camaraderie and Judaism, where you're like an entourage where we could work together, and like a fake it till you make it, and I'm going to treat you like the person you're faking, trying to be than the person you actually are. And you might treat me like the person I'm faking, trying to be as opposed to the person I actually am. And then usually that backfires at some point, and like, I mean, reality hits. But you know, this level of, you know, then like bad mouthing, and then at what point does it pay to air out your dirty laundry? And then I get back to the positive side of secular culture, because like if we go to synagogue with each other and we have it out and start bashing each other, we're still going to have to see each other all the time, we're still part of the same community. As opposed to the secular culture, it makes people interested, like, you know, it's like, who is this Luke Ford guy? Why are you telling me all this stuff about him? And then, you know, then you say, well, I want to see, I want to make my own judgment for yourself. And you form like some sort of personal relationship. So if I'm gossiping, even if it's a negative way, it could cause some sort of emotional buying to the person I'm talking about, where they're going to, and even happen with like John Wolf, where you're like, I'm streaming with his former streaming partner. And now they're fighting. And you know, it's drama. And people are interested in the drama. And people that were friends are bashing each other. And we could go over, it may not be worth it, but you're just the streaming history. You're like Brundle, Kyle, people you've worked together, KMG. KMG, you're probably positive like that. I've never once heard you badmouth KMG. You might just say practically why it didn't work out. But like relatively, it was probably a success relationship. Any time you mentioned KMG, largely you just say positive things. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and this is very intense. There's kind of a sense that you're in the, in the trenches together, like you're at war. So if you're in the trenches and you know, you're taking a lot of fire as you do, if you speak out on any, you know, hot button issue publicly, it's, it's explosive. All right. You know, the dynamics of live streaming on controversial issues can drive people apart, but it can also produce a feeling of solidarity. But I know there are a lot of people who'd like to come on this stream who I don't want on the stream because I'm concerned that it won't be good for them. And I'm concerned that it just unnecessarily complicates my life. So I don't know how, how choosy have you been about the type of people you bring onto a live stream? I'm relatively pretty choosy. I don't stream that much. And I try to keep it topical in certain, like in terms of service or, but I don't think anyone I've streamed, if I would say, betrayed me, even in terms of, you know, the negative interactions I've had that, you know, even like Brundle or something like that, that, you know, it's like, okay, like, you know, God forbid, like, you got a strike. I remember at that point, like, things were going good. And then all of a sudden, like, you got a strike, you were making money, you were getting big views. And your terms of service started getting more intense, and you'd be more careful. And you put your, your channel or, you know, had hopes of it being a Parnasa at risk. And then you're just topical. That is like, it's my show, my channel, I want to talk about what I want to talk about. And you could come on, like, if you're interested in talking about what I want to talk about, I mean, do you think anyone would you consider anyone betraying you, even consider like, okay, like Brundle and Godward. And I was on streams where we were bashing you, like, you know, God forbid, I mean, to some extent, where like, I remember, you know, like, you know, you were disappointed, Godward and Brundle, and they had streams where they bashed you. But I don't know if they like, to some extent, but I don't know if they betrayed you, like they were highly disappointed. They felt that their expectations weren't met. And, and they felt that what they wanted out of the relationship wasn't happening due to what they saw as personal defects in you. And they were publicly announcing, you know, that and then going through their personal defects at least a few times, even if your relationships, I don't even know if I would consider that betrayal. And certainly they did that to, you know, me also. But I wouldn't consider that betrayal. Right. So when I think about things rationally and, you know, falling out with various people that I stream with, I don't consider anything betrayal when I think about them rationally. But when I'm caught up in the emotions of the moment, then, yeah, certainly, you know, things, things similar to what you mentioned can really sting. And they can feel, you know, like betrayal in the moment. But then when I get some perspective, it's like, Oh, they just, you know, they have different priorities, they're different people, you know, they experienced things a different way. And so yeah, they're going to have, you know, different, different perspectives than I will. Your expectations. I don't know if you had any comment on the gossip, like, you know, like from the academic level, a positive aspect of breaking the impersonal divide, because like, and that's, I was concerned because we got into arguing about the COVID scheme. But I was saying, like, in the orthodox Jewish world, the impersonal divide is sometimes like not even there to very thin. And you're saying, like, to the certain extent, like, you're like the guy who hates you at synagogue might still show up to your Simka, like you're going to see him all the time. And, you know, you might have your friends in synagogue, and then your frenemies in synagogue. And to some extent, your frenemies might know just as much about you as your friends. And so that personal divide doesn't exist. And so the laws of lush and horror are more applicable, as opposed to the larger world where it's very impersonal. It's hard to, you know, break divides, break the social barrier, form personal relationships, and gossip could be extremely valuable, like in anything, like how are you going to meet somebody? And just like, you're like, well, give me something. And, you know, so gossip would be that information that breaks the divide, even if it's negative, and you have some sort of end to your forming deeper relations with people. Yeah, on a practical basis, orthodox Jews gossip just as much as anyone else. And orthodox rabbis, they gossip just as much as plumbers. I mean, they talk about it, you know, that we're talking sharp, or I need to know for the good of the community. But gossip is endemic in orthodox Jewish life. And if you've never had much experience in orthodox Jewish life, it's just incredibly intense in group identity. So intense that for many orthodox Jews, anything that happens outside of orthodox Judaism, aside from earning a living is, you know, essentially pointless. So it's worth I'm saying, like you could assume that even if you have someone you don't like in the community, that they probably know everything about you that everything the community knows about you. And that even if you have a friend that your friend probably has an acquaintance who knows your your your friend of me, and the information. So I mean, like, I mean, there's the laws of gossip by saying the orthodox Jewish community, like it's much worse gossip is much worse. And even the people you dislike, like tend to know everything about you. Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's life with community means that, you know, people know your story, they know your foibles, they know your failures, they know your humiliations. And that's that's just part of, you know, living in an extended family and not everyone's cut out for it. It can be very intense and very challenging. But I would not want to live any other way. Okay, I'm going to start to wrap things up for tonight. Any final words, David? Well, did you have a, like I was playing in the secular role of you agree that it's much more distance like like really, like, I know almost nothing about anybody and like, like, like compared to orthodox Judaism, it like, you know, you look on Facebook or do research, but it's extremely difficult to like, break that personal barrier, as opposed to orthodox Judaism, you just like ask someone in shul, and next thing you know, you have like all the DL, you know, the breakdown of the events like the secular community, it's much more difficult or like at work and gossip, we've talked about in the past, we could wrap up, but like gossip is a currency, even orthodox Judaism, but anywhere, you know, gossip is a little bit of a currency, especially making friends or the dating realm. You know, if you're interested in a woman or something like knowing some sort of personal information, gossip could definitely help break that barrier. So it's an important topic. So I appreciate having me on Happy Shabuahs tomorrow night. And, you know, so be blessed and have a happy holiday. Okay, thanks, David. Good to see you. Good to talk to you and take care.