 I think you should be saying Dobroutro, shouldn't you, Chris? Yeah, Dobroutro, which we can, or Dobarden, we will talk a bit about more of that in a moment. So, I am Chris Morrison and you are, who are you? I'm Jane Secker, I'm together with the Copyright and Online Learning Special Interest Group Co-Chairs of the ALT Group. The ALT, the Association for Learning Technology, Copyright and Online Learning Special Interest Group. That's us and we are back after a brief hiatus, wasn't there? We took April off, not entirely off, but we just didn't do a webinar. But this is now webinar number 49, we transitioned from the time of crisis to a time of uncertainty, but here we are and I think we are really looking forward to today. I certainly am, are you? Yeah, absolutely, yes. Yes, tell us all about what we've got lined up then, Chris. Come on, we've got some copyright news, as ever, and we, yeah, we'll talk about that in a moment when we get into it. We've got an exciting announcement. That might be the reason why we say good morning in Bulgarian? It may be, yeah. I think Ross might be Bulgarian. But the main event today is Kate Vassili joining us from Middlesex University, well, she's joining us from home, I believe, but from Middlesex University, many people will know Kate and we'll be introducing her in a moment. Copyright and Accessibility Tools, a topic that's come up several times and we're going to have a really interesting discussion, some great insights as to how we might approach that, certainly how Kate has been looking at it and thinking about it. So it's going to be a good one today, you know, it always is good, but this one, no exception. Right, so should we last met? What have we been up to? Why? Yes, okay, so what I'm going to do, we've got a couple of things here, so we've got this t-shirt I'm wearing at the moment, those people watching the YouTube version of this will be able to see us at the moment, we'll show off later, but this is my gift on my leaving due until I left the University of Kent, that was last week on Friday, it was postponed by a week because I got the dreaded Covid, so I couldn't have my leaving due on my last day, had to do it a week later. So we'll come back, we've got a couple of slides just to show you how amazing this thing is, that Chris Jones has created, and I'm just trying to see, is Chris joining us today? I can't see him on the list, so maybe we have to... I'll have a look, I'll have a look, we'll see. In his absence. And then the other photo, what's the other thing? So the other photo is this is us out by... That's not Clamisham is it? No, no, we left Kent didn't we? We got on a plane, it was I have to say the first time for... Well, over two years, unsurprisingly, I'm sure many of you haven't yet got on a plane, but they do still work in the same way, and we went to Bulgaria, so this is us right in the centre of Sofia in Bulgaria, and this is the main, or one of the main, they've got many many churches, but this is that one of the main cathedrals that's right in the centre, that we spent some time walking around, didn't we actually, trying to meet various people from the conference we were at, so are we going to say a bit more about that, or we'll leave that to later what we were up to? I think we have got it as one of our news items, what we were actually doing there. We have, but it was really great because for those who don't know, the term copyright literacy does actually come from research that started in Bulgaria, and so it was a really exciting opportunity to go and meet who we called the grandmother of copyright literacy, didn't we? She's the godmother, isn't she, but she may be the grandmother, but Dr Tendych... Well, she is now a grandmother, so she was very proud of that. So it was, yes, it was a fantastic opportunity to travel and also exhausting and... All those other things that international travel is. Yeah, so going back to that picture there, I just wanted to show you here, this is the picture that Chris Jones Reading University put together for my leaving due. Now, as you can see, this is just an incredible piece of work slightly disturbing, maybe some of those things. I'm sure everyone could see what it is, would recognize that image, and know that I'm a massive Beatles fan, but can you spot all the things that are going on in this picture? So anyone see the belt in the picture? Any interfaces? Can anyone see what it, what the relevance might be? Anyone who was in the last icebox in 2019 might recognize that there they are. Now, what we are planning on doing with this is sharing it. We'll obviously be speaking to Chris to make sure he's all on board with it, but to share this image, and yes, Evelyn, absolutely. Now, they are all interesting copyright cases. Not only did Chris put the effort into putting this together, and a combination of copyright facts and sort of rather strange pictures of me and people that I know. He has, of course, created this reading list, fully cited everything to an absolutely meticulous level of detail about everything that is on that image. So it's an absolute, it's an amazing piece of work. So I want to say thank you so much, Chris, for that, and thank you to everybody who said nice things about me as I moved on. It all a bit strange, really, sort of delayed, kind of not remote, but slightly remote thing, but this really made it, it's fantastic. Yeah, we're hoping we can let everyone have a closer look at that at some point fairly soon, and we're just going to say. I think what would be great is to have an interactive version where you can just roll over the figures and actually see what's going on. It might actually be one of my ex-colleagues, Jose Bellido, lecturer in intellectual property law at our law school, saw it and said, can I actually, can I use this with my students? So it's actually going to be. Just click back to it once more. Just click back to it one more time. Let's just have a quick look at that. So we can see several members of this parish are included on it. Absolutely. Yes. Interesting that Ruth, who's my new boss, is kind of poking her head over the top of my head, so she's obviously keeping an eye on me. And it looks good on rice paper. Yes, yes. Thank you, Chris, and for helping arrange all those kids. For those who didn't see, there was actually also, I tweeted some stuff about this, and there was also this picture put onto a cake for Chris as well. So he got to eat this. We did. Okay. I think it's time to move on from this. I think so. Let's move on. Yes. Yeah. Okay. So this is a reminder that we have the webinar and blog archive. We actually have, as I mentioned, YouTube number of images now on the alt YouTube playlist or videos on the playlist, which can be easier to play than getting into that. We'll collaborate. Remember, it's all there if you want to go back and see previous ones. But now without further ado, that's right. It's copyright news item number one. So we mentioned this. This was why we were in bulky area. So you're wanting me to talk about this? Yes. Yes. That's fine. Yeah. So the Decris or Decris, actually, as most people were calling it, we discovered at the conference. I'm just popping the link into it. It's a Rasmus funded project. They have run a number of events to bring the project partners together, but also to bring some sort of interesting experts in the field. So digital education for crisis situations times when there is no alternative. The partners of the project from Germany, Spain, Bulgaria and Croatia. And what they're actually doing is looking at the role that open educational resources play in teaching. But very specifically, and something that actually didn't occur to Chris and I till we got there is it's actually a project led by four of the library science or library and information studies schools around Europe. So they're actually looking to share their teaching materials as we ask. So it's materials for teaching librarians. And we were really, really delighted to be asked to do a keynote to open the event and to talk about the role that copyright plays when we're thinking about openly licensing educational resources. So it was just fantastic, wasn't it Chris? Really good to be out there and to me, you know, people from all around Europe working in similar sort of areas. Yeah, it was fantastic. But also very nice to get back home. So it's all good. International travel is good, but tiring. But that was where we were. So we hope to see more. And the Lilac Conference archive is available. So this is, we just wanted to draw people's attention to that because we were talking, we presented at that event with the Canadian team of Amanda and Celine on Copyright Anxiety. And it was a good session, wasn't it? Again, Lilac actually face to face. Yes. Yes. Yes. So this was before Easter. And Manchester Metropolitan University. We did see some of you there in person as well, which was fantastic. And there was a couple of other sessions about copyright. And the full program is actually now up. So you can have a look at the slides. There's that link I've just popped into the chat takes you to the archive of presentations. And it's alphabetical by author surname, I think. But yeah, you can have a look at some of the papers. But just, I mean, really, you know, obviously, if for some people, they're not ready yet to go back to face to face. But there was a great buzz. And it was lovely to be at the Lilac Conference and see lots of people again. So yeah, that was a really, a really, a really good time. Next item, Chris. Next item. So this is a report. We mentioned this in our keynote, because IFLA have pulled together, they put out a survey and some statistics on an international level. How did libraries respond to the pandemic or how did copyright impact on their activities during the pandemic? So we see here that 83% of the respondents from 29 countries said they had copyright related challenges during, you know, as a result of library closures. And we also picked out of here that 52% of libraries had identified that those problems related to international cross-border access students returned to their home countries, different licenses, different technological infrastructure. So these are things that we've seen in our community. But what we always want to do is make sure we're linking this back to the international scene, whether we can learn from others and share our experiences. So this is an interesting increase in research, very useful. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And there is a summary report, which is what the top link was taking you to. But just, I think, yesterday, IFLA put up the full report. And I understand they're using it for discussions when they attend WIPO, aren't they, I think, a bit later this year? Yes, absolutely. Yeah. So that's a good one. The next thing we've got here. So you, again, you went to an actual real event. I did, yes. So Association for Learning Technology also run the OER Conference, the Open Educational Resources Conference. OER 22 was a hybrid event. So there was a day in person in London in a very spacious, airy venue. And then there was an asynchronous day and then there was a fully online day on the third day. And I think they're making a lot of the presentations available from the conference. But I was invited at the end of the day to sit on a panel discussing Open Textbooks with colleagues from University of Edinburgh, so Lorna Campbell, with the Director of Library Services, Gary, who's at the Open University, and also with Adara, who is the Open Textbooks Manager at UCL. So really interesting. I'm not going to say too much more about it. The link is up on YouTube if you'd like to have a watch about the sorts of things we talked about. Unsurprisingly, I talked a little bit about the role that copyright might play, and we kind of talk about what's happening in the sort of open textbook space and, you know, what some of the institutions are doing around open educational resources. And we are going to get this as a topic on one of the webinars in the future, aren't we? We absolutely are. I've already been in touch with Dara at UCL. We'll probably be looking for another speaker as well about Open Textbooks. There was a great presentation from the University of Sussex about what they're doing as well. So, yeah, we're lining that one up, I think, for probably July sort of time. And, yeah, watch this space. So, the next one is an event. Knowledge Rights 21 are putting on their first webinar. So, I think we've spoken about Knowledge Rights 21. In the past, this is a project to spread or help raise awareness, understanding of copyright across Europe and in the library information profession. And they are looking at a number of different areas. And this one is looking at unsustainable ebook markets. So, something we are aware of. I've always spoken about here before and related to the question about open textbooks, looking at current licensing models. So, this is on the 19th of May. And you can sign up for that if you want to see more about what's happening there. So, I think a useful session to be joining if you can. Okay. So, we need a bit of drum roll now, don't we? Do we need a drum roll, Chris? I don't have a drum roll. We're going to get on to the main act now. Boom. Ice pops, 2022. It's happening. It's real. Thank you to everybody who responded to our survey to ask about feasibility, whether they'd still be prepared to go, where the date, the location. And we understand that there was always going to be some uncertainty about face-to-face events. Exactly the timing would be tricky. We could, you know, what we've done in the past is have ice pops in June around that time. But we were really keen to bring our community back together, those of us who are working in copyright education and looking at playful and creative ways of doing it. So, ice pops for anyone that hasn't been aware of it is the international copyright literacy event with playful opportunities for practitioners and scholars. We, it is using the classic now format. This will be the third face-to-face edition, but the fourth in total because we had our online, I can't believe it's not ice pops last year. But this is going to be at Oxford University Museum of Natural History. We've got a fantastic venue for the event. We've got some incredible, well, we've got the keynotes we'd initially had lined up for 2020 will be joining us, but a lot's happened in the intervening time. And in fact, there's a lot to catch up on. We've got Emily Hudson talking about the parody pastiche exception and making that really interactive. And we've got Douglas McCarthy and Andrea Wallace, who are the open glam duo, talking to us about their work in open glam galleries, libraries, archives, museum. And there's been quite a lot of work in that space as well. Doug is at the European Foundation. Andrea's been doing a lot of work on the towards a national collection. And it's just going to be a brilliant event. Call for contributions is there. So if you want to contribute, we've got the classic World Cafe, we've got the classic lightning talks, opportunities to share what you're doing or just ideas about how you might approach stuff. And I think we've got Kyle Courtney has got it in his diary. We're hopefully going to get a fantastic file back in the UK. So we're really, really pleased that we're able to announce this. And just to say, this is a bit of a sneak preview. So we haven't actually, we haven't got a booking page up yet. And we've got information about the costs. We've got our sponsors lined up, but we will be getting in touch and sending out further details next week about this. So this is a special advance. Get your thinking caps on. We're really hoping, obviously we do get a good number of people who would like to come along and speak at the event as well. So any ideas you've got, have a look at our call for contributions. So yeah. And Karen is absolutely right. It is an amazing venue. But we now will move on to the main event, accessibility tools and copyrights with Kate Vassili. Kate, are you there? Copyright officer extraordinaire from Middlesex University. I hope you don't mind that being your title. Wow. No pressure. No pressure. Kate, you've been, I think most many, many people here will know you well. You introduced to us your copyright journey, how you became a copyright specialist a few webinars ago. So we're delighted to have you talking on this topic. It came up as part of the discussions on list copy seek, didn't it, about how do we deal with accessibility tools? And then we have a working group as part of the Cool SIG committee. We've got a separate group and they were asking you to see if you could expand on some of the things you were talking about on the list. So here's the opportunity for you to give us some of your insights and sparks and conversations about how we deal with this and the risk of using various tools. So over to you. If you're okay, we can get your slides up. Oh, wow, the slides are coming up. Wow. Brilliant. Just like magic, right? Just like magic. Thank you, Chris. No worries. So, hi, everyone. A lot of you probably already know me. Kate Visily, copyright officer for Middlesex University. And by no means an expert. I've learned like many of you on this list just by doing the job and picking up things as you go along, asking questions, reading answers and just sort of accumulating the knowledge as you go along. So again, accidental journeys, not something I plan to do as a child. So, as Chris said, I was really responded to a question on this copy seek and that sort of sparked further discussions in the All SIG accessibility group meeting. So they asked me to prepare a paper, so to speak, on what I've said and to elaborate on some of the things that I've mentioned. So this is basically a presentation on that paper, just giving you some insights of why maybe it's not so scary to use these accessibility tools and have them available to your students. So if this changes, let me just check. Right. If you can't get it to move, I'm happy to do the old next slide thing and I'll move them along for you. I'll just try one more thing and if not, yeah, it's not moving. Oh, hold on. Thank you. Okay, I'll not be forward. Sorry. I'll be back to you. Worked it out. There you go. So the accessibility tools I'll be talking about are Blackboard Ally and also Sensors Access, which many of you would have heard of by now. And I know a lot of you who already integrated into your platforms and your systems at your universities. I have to add there are similar products maybe available. So just a reminder because I know there's probably other technology companies busily trying to create the same sort of products for this. Blackboard Ally doesn't only work on Blackboard. Obviously Blackboard and Moodle have merged and so it works on Moodle as well. So it's not just that. This is just a brief rundown of the features of each of the accessibility tools. So Blackboard Ally is a VLE integrated application where Sensors Access is a web-based platform and also an LTI plug-in. So although there is a web form available publicly on their website, any organizations that want to use it have to subscribe and use their plug-in. There's a VLE content accessibility feedback forward with a Blackboard Ally. The format request icon is attached to individual items in Blackboard so they can be switched on and off and there's also no file size limit. Whereas with Sensors Access there is a file size limit so you can't upload huge files. I did mention already that the web form is available to subscriber institutions to put anywhere on their own websites but there's also a public version which they use mainly as a test so you can see how it works before you subscribe. The preferred format selection for both of them are almost the same. They've got seven each with Sensors Access. They have Daisy as well so Daisy talking books in 24 languages. I'm not sure about different languages with Blackboard Ally but Middlesex we don't actually have it which is a bit tongue-in-cheek that I'm presenting on something we don't have at Middlesex but never mind. And they also both do e-brill. Oh they do have translations sorry I'm talking rubbish now. They do have translations but I'm not sure which languages whereas Sensors Access actually specify the languages. There's instant download from Blackboard Ally whereas Sensors Access actually email the converted file back to the requestor so they have to put in them email address when they make the request. So the main concern that came up on ListCopySeek and everywhere else as well is that the disability exceptions in the Copyright, Signs and Patterns Act only apply to making accessible copies for disabled persons who meet the certain criteria i.e. in the Equality Act in 2010. But these accessibility tools are made freely available to all staff and students via the institutions VLE or web pages etc which allows them to then download content in any format of their choice. So the question is are we aiding or encouraging copyright infringement by making these tools available to the wider cohort? So that's the burning question and the main concern with these tools. So I start scratching my head or my chin as the image implies and I may be wrong but and then this is the legal disclaimer. I may have legal qualifications but I'm not a lawyer so anything I say from here on reflects my own personal opinions, viewpoints and analyses and should not be construed as legal advice blah blah blah sorry about that but I had to say it. So reasons why it's highly unlikely that we are sort of aiding or encouraging copyright infringement. First I'll go through each of these different aspects. So we're going to talk about the content first what type of content and the copyright status etc and why how they've been provided then the amount so what's likely to be provided how much the purpose why it's there then that we'll talk about the legal exceptions and you know there might be other reasons that you can use it or you've made it available and then obviously there has to be a risk assessment on all of these aspects. So the content mostly it's academic authorship so you've got lecture slides lecture notes maybe assignments exam questions projects setting assignments etc which the university will own so there wouldn't be a copyright issue with those however the student wanted to unload them. The main problem would be third party content and these on the VLE mainly are often provided via links to the online reading list so again they're taking it off the VLE platform. Copies from third party content are either licensed or with permissions or we like to think they are anyway so they're either under a primary license so whether the university has subscribed to the content or purchased ebooks etc or they've obtained permissions directly from the publishers or the copyright owners. Then there's secondary licensing which we call collective licensing so the CLA, NLA we're allowed to upload content under those licenses within their parameters their restrictions and then there's legal exceptions so we might have uploaded content under section 30 for quotation criticism review or section 32 illustration for instruction which is probably the main one for a VLE or VLE content but also section 36 which also works in line with the CLA so anything that's not CLA licensed could be copied under section 36 within the very limited 5% obviously. And then we have direct links to external content so external websites there might be links to a topical website that the academic students look at and also library collections via the library management system so it will take you off to your catalogue or wherever that content resides basically. So the main thing is to remember that any links take you off the VLE platform so if it's not on that platform then Blackboard Ally wouldn't be available to those that content so the whole books that would be in the library collection the option to download it in a different format wouldn't be available because you're moving away from the VLE so the integration then breaks and similarly if it's the next external website again the integration wouldn't work. However a student could download a copy of something and then upload it onto sensors access to get a conversion in a different way. So the amount what's likely to be on the VLE so copies provided from a third party would require downloading a different format rarely amount to whole or substantial part of the work which I've just said so it would be maybe a chapter an article or a link to something else unless it's an image obviously images would be the entire work and probably articles but articles tend to fall within the parameters of that it's part of an issue or a volume so it's not an entire work in itself. And why has the content been provided obviously it's for teaching or study purposes and that's the content that's most likely to be downloaded for study in their own time or private copying. Content provided for decorative or aesthetic purposes is unlikely to be downloaded unless it's embedded into those notes and those teaching resources like lecture slides etc the students wouldn't deliberately be downloading it unless it was interesting to them on a study purpose you know outside of what the intended purpose of it being there was so you know there are different reasons. So the legal exceptions that would cover a student first of all disability exceptions obviously if it's a disabled student or staff member they could rely on their disability exceptions to download content in any format that they require to make it accessible but if you're not a disabled student you don't meet the criteria there are other options available to you so section 29 private study and non-commercial research would cover a student making a copy of that content for their own purposes. Equally illustration for instruction illustration for instruction covers the person giving and receiving instruction so bear that in mind it's a student as well as the staff uploading the content. So both exceptions are format neutral they don't expect people to upload or download content in the same format it was there if you think of it with respect to if they download a paper copy that's not the same format it's been provided so it is being reformatted anyway this is just giving them options of how they want to access it if it's something that's been made available under a license if we look at the CLA license the only restrictions are that the recipients are only ultimately in possession of one single copy of the content again they're format neutral they don't mention how the student can download that copy it doesn't say they must download it as a pdf onto their laptop or they must print it out etc it just says they can download a copy I might have forgotten something so someone can remind me if it does actually say that but I don't think it does it just says that a recipient can should ultimately be in possession of one copy of that item when we look at the options available through these accessibility tools sorry I've got a mind freeze there they're normally around reading content so there'll be html word pdf braille ebooks that daisy they're all around reading content so there isn't an option even audio books spacing so audio recordings so it's not something that you can reformat from a document into a film or anything like that so it doesn't go that far it's just a different way to read that content so you're not changing it in major ways and the the audio content is probably the furthest away from what the original was meant to be provided in but again if it makes it accessible there shouldn't be an issue so the risk the questions you should ask when you're making your risk assessment it's not a question basically you should consider that it is a personal copy that the person is legitimately provided with download downloaded by an authorised recipient but in a different format that's all that's the only issue that might be of contention but there isn't an issue as far as I'm concerned like I said before I may be wrong so please say if you think I'm wrong so will it attract copy copyright infringement claim is highly unlikely on the on the basis of what I've just said also you have to consider the benefits to students of being able to download these copies so an unencrypted pdf or word document allows students to make notes to copy paste extracts for quotation purposes etc so if they're writing an essay or a project they can you know sort of copy paste extracts and cite them so through their citation tools. Tag documents of clear headings and structure allowing for easy navigation so students can find what they need easily it includes an automatic generation of table of contents as well again helping with the navigation. Audio MP3 which I said is probably the most you know contentious one of the conversions along with it the original text allows a further engagement so especially for students with dyslexia that take longer to process content that's much easier for them if they can listen to something alongside the actual visual extract. It also aids with English and foreign language so again with translation if you've got a foreign speaking student that might struggle with English it helps them as well but also time management so how many of us would like to listen to something while they're driving on a bus on a train instead of having to read something and have to hold it in your hand and physically hold it. I mean it does help when you think a lot of students travel a long way to get onto campus that would be great for their in time time management terms. HTML and EPUB provide text reflows so they read more fluidly and also enables them to download the mobile devices and tablets etc which we know a lot of our students prefer to use. So if you're still not convinced these are just additional things. Census access is usually only made available via the institution's accessibility support pages and within those pages there are instructions about who should be using the tool etc so this minimizes general discoverability and usage or it's supposed to. Also the file uploads for conversion are limited by size so it's unlikely to accept entire works entire books etc. Blackboard ally is only integrated via the VLE so it includes controls etc which is the button I mentioned earlier that you can toggle on and off for individual items so if an academic is unsure about whether this should be made available widely they can toggle it on and off but I doubt they will. So they're just additional things to consider. Just as a final note would I mean what would be the alternative we don't lock up our photocopiers to stop students from photocopying or scanning entire books so this is literally just these are just additional copying tools and converting so a scanner is a conversion from print into a digital this is just another conversion into another format as well. So now I'll hand over to you and I see there's lots of things in in the chat box which I haven't been looking at but if Chris would like to jump in as well if you have something to add please put it in the chat box or put your hand up if you want to be on camera and speak but I'll hand over to Chris now. Thank you Kate thank you so much for that so I'm going to stop sharing that screen so we can all see each other now and we really appreciate you taking the time to go through that. There are a few questions here and we certainly do want to get others input. The thing I wanted to just mention first was picking up on your clarification that this is not legal advice and of course it will have to suffice but but having said that that it is the purpose of having the webinars is to have community discussions and the call seek really is operating as a community of practice where we bring people together and it's an extension of what we've been doing for many years discussions on list copy seek so there are different views there are different approaches that we might want to take institutionally clearly if we're working within institutions it's up to those institutions to make the decision about what tools they use what they how their settings are what guidance they give to their staff and students so there are a number of different configurations of how you might work so it's it's always difficult to have a single sort of set of guidance notes that will always be in every single situation but we think there are some I think what you've picked out there are some really key points just a reminder of what the legislation says what provisions there are in the law the accessibility provisions are there and have been expanded since 2014 and are really important but then there are those other ones as well and you always look at those as a copyright specialist advisor to try to see how could you apply a bit of this and a bit of that how does it relate to to any given situation so it may be that you know we have got you know we've had discussions haven't we about whether this is something we could provide as guidance as a written in a written form and we just felt that the most appropriate way of doing this is framing it as a discussion about what other people are thinking about what they're doing and having that as an informed having that as an informed discussion so thank you again Kate for for giving some of that context so we've had some questions coming up Chris we should be good to pick up on some of those so I think the first one I think we've got had a question that's already been answered thanks to Steve who's answered the questions about totara learn and whether it works with that particular whether whether it works with that VLE but the first question was whether the about warnings and whether downloaded files include warnings not to re-upload them etc and Philip has asked sort of similar questions about whether you ask students not to share audio or other formats outside the organization I don't know if you wanted to pick up answer either of those Kate um like I said middle sex don't actually have Blackboard Ally although we do have census access those warnings to students are in our normal student regulations and we do I think there is something on the VLE just in general telling students that everything provided to them is for their own study purposes and they shouldn't be sharing them anywhere else but this has come on the back of students sharing things on those platforms like course hero those kinds of platforms yeah so it's general rather the specific to these tools yeah I think that's a really good point to make actually um that that you know we do you know in some ways is this any more risky than you know students taking things and sharing them that are provided to them for you know their their study so I see Steve B's got his hand up and he's actually Steve you've mentioned about what you do at the University of Brighton do would you like to come in yeah I was just going to say that the text that I put into the text the text that I put into the chat actually comes up as a pop-up as soon as you click on download for any of the alternate formats so the student can't actually get to the alternate format without clicking that they've seen that message okay well that's yeah I think that's I think that's really helpful um and um Rosas just said something about it how it would constitute academic misconduct if students shared something that was for personal use and yes Emily you have noticed that Pickle hasn't arrived she is here on camera she's just climbing all over the keyboard so if random things appear in the chat that is why um but yes I think that that whole question about what you tell students and how you frame it is really important and when Kent first got in census access we developed some wording when I was there um I there's probably a limit to how much I can talk about Kent because I no longer work there but certainly we did a lot of work with Ben Watson to try to frame it in the right way so it didn't seem the copyright was a barrier to using accessibility tools but to clarify the responsibility and we certainly did do a lot of work with learning technologists there about how that information is is provided in the virtual learning environment but it's all I'm picking up on Emily's question here about on the copyright infringement aspect to what extent are these tools used by lecture staff to convert files when they are then upload as opposed to individual students instigating the conversion process so the um one thing that Blackboard Ally does again as Kate says other tools are available but one thing it does is it actually scores the accessibility of the documents as they're going in there so it's not all about providing this format shifting functionality a lot of it is about getting it right when the module convener is putting together that information so they do have the ability to use that tool to increase the accessibility of their tools and to prepare and that's what we want the the ability to convert them into a different format is a is something is a tool for students to use themselves and to say actually I would prefer it in this format so there is you know it is providing them with that functionality but it's a combination of the two so Emily I'm not sure whether you wanted to with that clarification wanted to come in and and make a point about the liability or had further questions um or wanted to just say hello to pickle uh do you want to say hello back she's she's still here so uh yeah she'd be more than happy to talk to you Emily um and I know that Karen's a big fan of her yes we can hear you can hear you hi uh hello I'm in Australia again oh wow so I'm I'm sitting in the dark in Australia um in the very late night not the intellectual dark um no the reason why I asked that question was because the liability for the university could arise in two different ways one is direct infringement for staff changing third party content so they get the file they make the changes to it and they release it so Kate mentioned that a lot of the content is created by academics or other members of staff from the university so for those for she's correct for all that content none of these questions arise it would as she said be for the third party content the other way in which liability can arise is as um authorizing the infringement of somebody else so that's where the question about the student activity is relevant because basically the liability could come from the university providing a tool which allows the students to infringe and Kate put a photocopier on her slides and it's that's the equivalent right it's just like we think about is there infringement for having coin operated photocopiers now that's turned into scanners computers and so forth and I think it may well be that the exceptions analysis plays out a bit differently between those two forms of liability um because what you can say if the allegation is authorization you can say well we only provided the tool to the extent it would be used lawfully by students and in fact a lot of the activity by students would be individually for each student a fair dealing um and so there's no actual so we can sort of get away from liability for a couple of reasons it might arguably be slightly different though if the university itself is converting a whole bunch of material just because of the argument the fair dealing analysis is less strong if you're making content available so hundreds and hundreds or thousands of students can access that adjusted content I have to say I agree generally though with everything Kate said about in terms of legal analysis and the risk assessment and how to proceed but it was just I think my question was just to tease out those two ways into liability and how the arguments might unfold a bit differently depending on who's actually using the tools is it the university using the tool or is the students using the tool that the university has provided thanks for that clarification Emily that's it's a really good point just pick those out Kate I wonder if you wanted to come back on that yeah I totally agree with Emily I mean for staff to use it to convert masses of content it's highly unlikely the content we provide to students that might need conversion would be things that we'd scanned under the cna license but under that license we do have the option to make things to convert things or to edit things for pedagogical reasons to what extent I don't know the the major issue like I said before would be into converting something to audio that is a completely different format and has a whole load of other rights involved so if a student was to do or no a staff member a student could do that if a staff member were to make something into audio and upload it on to the VLE for everyone to access in an audio form I think we'd need permissions and there would be a liability aspect there but I otherwise third party content would normally go up in the original I would assume in the original format in some way or another so either a scan or a link to it which would again take it away from these tools thanks for that Kate just as an addition to this you mentioned the CLA license Kate your member of the group that Jane and I and others are on where we negotiate the CLA license there was a discussion we have from time to time a rights holder forum where we can talk to representatives from the publishing industry and also the authors licensing and collecting society talk about how that license operates and we did actually raise this issue a couple of times about the use of these sorts of tools that allowed format shifting and it it became quite clear that this was not a major area of concern for the publishing industry this sort of thing when it comes to the CLA license itself CLA are operating the digital content store and in fact the content is stored there so they are the ones with the responsibility for making them accessible we'll refer back if we can find the link to the previous webinar we had on accessibility and all the various ways in which we want to make material accessible and in fact I think that there is I know you're raising the fact that yes you can get an audio file from this and shifting it into a computer generated narration of a paper from a publisher's perspective we were talking about audio books and yes they don't necessarily publishers don't necessarily have the agreements with their authors to create audio books or if they do they come under a very specific set of contractual arrangements about how that comes about but these really in my view these are not audio books and I think they're therefore the the risk is you've got to see it in that light it's it's content which is not available under an audio book it's not like someone's actually narrating it and turning it into something that has an additional value over and above the you know how much it costs for the institution to get hold of the original get permissions to get that content in the format that is delivered to the student so I think it's it's I don't think it's a major area of concern about the format shifting but then it may be that others have different experiences and and certainly if it's something where there's large-scale format shifting going on this is this is a different question I think is than what we're really talking about with the way these tools are usually used as a use it as and when it's like equivalent as you and as Emily agreed to a photocopier being available to help you with your studies we're not using it as a way of avoiding paying for content legitimately in the first place I just pop something in the chat Chris because I think it's you know I mean I've actually got Blackboard Ally and we're doing a bit of a trial of accessibility tools and we've got a lot of work going on at City University so I thought what better way to learn than to actually switch it on on my Moodle course and see how that works and I'm just also putting a link into our digital accessibility guidance that we have which is licensed for the Creative Commons as well so which is very exciting but I think you know it I mean it's clear in my module everything that's in there is actually content it's pretty much I've written I mean all my readings are on our reading this system so it's you know it's kind of it's a bit of a non-issue in a way to me but it is I think thinking about accessibility is so important and it is something that you know I've really started to think about when I create a lot of course materials myself making sure that I'm making them accessible so I think Caroline did have her hand up for a while actually and I didn't know I know she spoke about previous webinars shall we Caroline sorry I took my hand down because I didn't want to interrupt what Emily was saying which I was very interested in just had we're in the process of looking at purchasing one of these tools and as well as Blackboard Ally and Census Access as separate products we also looked at the Brickfield Toolkit and I think into that and I would recommend that particularly anybody who uses Moodle takes a look at them because we were really impressed it's sort of the best of both worlds because you can either purchase it as a sort of this working the same way as Blackboard Ally does or you can purchase it with Census Access included so then you get both of the ways of converting material so stuff that's uploaded to Moodle you can it will have the options there to download it in different formats and you can also have the standalone which that will allow people to upload other contents I was particularly impressed with so Blackboard Ally does have some tools recommending teaching people about accessibility and recommending ways to fix content on their pages but the Brickfield approach was slightly different and I was really impressed by the way they're thinking about it and encouraging people to learn about accessibility creating accessible content their remediation tools for stuff that's already on your page was much better in my opinion and it was considerably cheaper I would recommend people if you are looking at getting one of these tools talk to these people as well thank you Caroline that's really helpful thank you can I just go back to um I don't know if I mentioned it in my talk but we talk about our scans and things being available on the reading list and also direct links outside but I just wanted to just make it you know sort of a comment that I'm aware that there are universities that don't use either so they neither use DCS or TACC or a reading an online reading list so all their content does go on the VLE so I suppose this would be more pertinent for them than the majority of us use those extra platforms yeah good point yeah thank you for that Kate so I think we're gonna it's now reaching 12 o'clock so we're going to draw the conversation to a close it's been really helpful thank you again I think in summary what I would say is I wouldn't describe it as a non-issue what I would say is actually this is the same issue that we deal with in every area when we're looking at copyright and online learning there are risks that need you know that you need to address the risks and take a risk managed approach we do our due diligence we make sure everyone understands what their responsibilities are um we don't do something which is clearly egregious systematic infringement but nevertheless there is once you start providing digital access to learning materials there will be some potential for some copyright issues so I think it was really useful to have it thank you again thanks to Emily and Caroline and to Steve and to the accessibility group that we have um on the alt call seek as well for the work they've been doing about this yeah yeah and don't worry Karen the guitars won't fall on my head they're pretty they're pretty uh firmly attached to the wall uh but here we are right so just to let you know future webinars we do have some lined up intellectual property office are going to be talking to us next time that's going to be good so they've been working on this intellectual property education frameworks are pretty important for those of us in this area um we've actually we penciled in becoming a copyright specialist for the first of july but actually I think looking at it that may be the one that we do as our open textbooks so I think it's uh what this space will get the website updated with a schedule as we slot those things in because we might bluntly become in a copyright specialist back a little bit as well but yeah I think there's lots of lots of really interesting stuff we can hang around for 10 minutes or so um we do like to end as you know with something to lighten things up but um I know many of you have to go just play that little jingle everyone get those lighters up so can I put the one last thing up for everybody here Chris? Clearly the song isn't working because we have droves of people leaving but there we go uh understandable we do advertise it as finishing at 12 o'clock so the one last thing it's a thing of beauty isn't it on on both levels yes so here we are in the Saphir Museum of Archaeology um on our final day can we have a it's a caption competition this time isn't it although it's an old text and actually what was the most interesting thing we will tell you at the end what the um the accessibility tools reading this picture just how it just who can guess how it describes this picture in old text automatically so the art at the AI um what did it and that is an anthropomorphic um bowl or jug or something isn't it it's not Chris is that how they described it um it is that's what that's what the actual um the the collection item is the the artifact is um yes uh yes it's got some slang coming through from Evelyn uh nice yes good idea yes Chris business end um bottom jug bottom jug yes was the tool given any context just the image Steve just had the image just had the image I've got I've got the text ready to go in there shall I shall I just I think I think and nobody's got anywhere close to it nobody's got anywhere close to what the old tag was suggesting it said a person standing next to a big statue of a bear um so what I did is she is I I I just amended that slightly um so uh are we still recording this yeah would you like me to stop recording I don't know no well let's I think yes I think we should say I hope you enjoyed the webinar today um if you see this later perhaps if you're looking at it on YouTube you could put something uh family in the comments section um as to what you think so thank you everybody now this is for the people who really staying right to the end this is really exciting