 Hello, and welcome to the San Jose State University I-School's LIS Careers podcast. My name is Kim Doherty, and as the I-School LIS Career Specialist, I'm delighted to welcome an I-School alumni, Ryan Gann, to our podcast series. Ryan is the Systems Librarian and Assistant Professor at El Camino College in Torrance, California. He loves his job, but he's had an extremely interesting career journey before landing at El Camino College, and so I've asked him to join us today to tell you about that journey. Because if you're a student in the program, you're probably thinking, okay, so when I graduate, I'm going to get a job doing XYZ, and then that's my career path. Ryan is here to tell you that there are many career paths that you can take. Yes. He's done that, so as he's moved from one type of library to another throughout his career, he's made some really interesting decisions. So with that, I'm going to welcome Ryan and ask him my first question. So Ryan, you've had a really wonderfully diverse career. Can you tell us about how you've navigated your career and how you've managed to make those transitions? Well, thank you, Kim. Yes. So, yeah, I'll start tracing my career when I started at iSchool in San Jose State. So while I was going to school, and it was so great that it was an online program because it allowed me, I was a part-time library clerk, and I was just like, you know, how am I going to, I want to proceed in the profession, like how do I get further into becoming a librarian? And I was like, oh, you know, San Jose State was there. And I was like, oh, I could take these classes and still work so I could have practical library experience, and then I could work towards MILS. So as I worked, I was a part-time library clerk, then started naturally unfolding. I would say, hey, I'm in library school. I'm applying for this part-time library assistant position. And then, you know, I went into that role. And then I finally became a full-time library assistant. And then once I finished the degree, then there was another position open, which was the young adult teen librarian. And then once I graduated, I applied for that job and became the librarian there. And so all the while I would reiterate I'm in library school. This is what my coursework plays out to the position. And that kind of gave me, I think, a lot of edge over as I was moving up that in my workplace at Orange Public Library. And as you were going through your coursework, one of the things that you had mentioned when you and I were talking before was that one of the things that it sort of informed for you was why you were pursuing this degree, why you wanted to work in a library. And that why can be extremely compelling when you are, for example, interviewing for a job. It sort of is what makes the difference between, yeah, I want to be a librarian and so I'm applying for this job. And here's why I want this job. Here's what I want to be able to do for our patrons. So could you talk about how you incorporated that into your cover letters and interview preparation a little bit? Yeah. So a lot of the kind of the theory that I would learn in high school, like that not only does that provide like a foundation for it provided also like I think of Rangannathans laws, like we always go back to that. And you might be, you know, the student that's in high school, like getting sick of it. But it but those really are a way to simplify complex tasks. So I would ask like those why is that would come out in my class coursework. And I said, oh, yeah, that's a theoretical foundation of how I could write my cover letters, my interview preparation. The job descriptions, which would have very specific, specific requirements. It allowed me to compose my cover letters, answer those questions, but also under this umbrella of why, you know, why do I want to pursue this work? And that would drive that for for teens. You know, I thought about one of the classes that it allows them to build like a psychic internal architecture, you know, by able by reading, you know, this literature allows them to to deal with real world situations and provide those examples for them, even though if they had not experienced that. So especially when I was talking about teen literature, maybe because that was kind of a big renaissance, too. Like we had Hunger Games, you know, Twilight was there. It was really exciting time. What did you enjoy the most about being a teen librarian? I liked I liked putting on teen programming and providing for teens that did not have a lot, you know, they don't they don't have jobs. They don't have a lot of spending money. It was really nice to be also there as as like an adult figure for them just to hang out and talk, you know, because I like this. I'm really proud of this. Like I had little to no disciplinary problems with teens in my area. It may be like, hey, you know, you stayed here too long, but they never they as long as I was really open with them, they were really open with me. That's interesting because I've talked to a number of people who say one of the reasons they love being teen librarians is because if you are authentic and respectful to them, they will give you the same back because they so value an adult caring about them in that way and treating them that way. Sounds like you experience the same thing. Yeah, I really loved that about the about being a teen librarian. And plus we had very I could present very innovative programming. It was it's very new still, in my opinion. So I could come up with programming. A lot of the other teen librarians were very open minded in my area in Orange County and Los Angeles. So we'd exchange a lot of ideas, program ideas. I remember when the the the economic collapse happened in 2008. You know, we were still trying dedicated dedicated to our teens. So we presented ones like teen programming on a shoestring. And I was like inexpensive programs that we could propose to our administration and still have quality teen programming for for our teens. And so, you know, we really buckled down and and tried to do that. So that would have been a great way to approach that. And and you're making a point that is always amazing to me about being in the LIS profession, which is the collaborative way all librarians support each other. So it doesn't make any difference if you're a librarian in Wichita, Kansas or Cleveland, Ohio or Torrance, California. Everybody who has useful information to share wants to get it out and support every other person in the profession. Yeah, I really love that. Like we all we all can. It's not it's OK to reach out to someone and and just ask, hey, what are you doing? I've done that countless of times from people and for people. And it just feels really great that we're the LIS profession is is almost is pretty unique, I think, in that respect for some. You know, I think you're right. I think it is unique because I've worked in the LIS world and I've also worked for nonprofits and I've worked in a for-profit, a number of for-profit environments. And I remember having a conversation with a CEO of a company that I was working for and we were creating an LIS or an information based product. And I eventually left the organization because I come from the library world and we give information away. We don't try to profit off. Yeah, we share it to help everybody. And it's a mindset that I think to your point is really unique to our profession. But it's also one of the reasons why this profession is so incredibly wonderful to work with them. So all right, you were a teen librarian for how long? I was a teen librarian, I believe, for let's say 2006 to about nine years. I was yeah, a long time and it was and it was good. It was good. You know, I'm I'm probably more than other people. It might have been because of the economic downturn, but now I'm I'm in a different place. Yeah, so I was at nine years and then I was called up to to become a branch manager. And so I became a branch manager and that and those teen library again, it's good while you're I know it might be for you and I school out there like you're finishing your master's, but it's always good to kind of maybe take stock of your skills and maybe your desires. Then that would inform me of the next move. So even though I got called up, it was nice to think of like, oh, my teen library experience is really valuable here as a branch manager because I'm used to doing things on my own to creating a lot of programming. Three, I had to, you know, kind of just do things on my own for a lot. And so that those those skills that I used as a teen librarian, I took stock of like, oh, OK, what have I learned that will allow me to do this job and what do I need to know? And and when you were tapped to be a branch manager, did you have moments of thinking I'm not ready for this or I can't do this or I don't know what I need to know or any hesitation? Or did you look at it as this is a great stretch for me? Yeah, I think before there was an opportunity to do that before. I had I think my teens hadn't it hadn't I really liked that generation of teens. And I wanted I felt that if I had moved before it would have I wouldn't be able to see the full cycle of like how they grew. And so I just needed to see that. Those are some things that I'm not I don't regret not moving on earlier, which is maybe about two or three years earlier. OK, because I needed to see that current group and kind of do the whole cycle with them, see that generation. So when I did move, I was like, OK, yes, I remember I had turned it down before, but now I am ready. So that's OK. Like there was there was a lot I needed to know to be a branch manager. And I think with any first time managerial experience there, it's a rocky. It's a rocky and it's a lot of anxiety, you know. So you might have a lot of anxiety because you're like, oh, wow, I'm going to be managing people. And that's OK. That that goes with everyone, I believe. That that is a really good point because I think a lot of people who are working in libraries look at at the branch manager job or being a director and think, oh, my gosh, I could never do that. I don't know the stuff that you need to know to be able to do that. But the reality is you kind of learn it on the job. And if you're paying attention when you make mistakes, you just figure out what went wrong. Learn what you can learn from it and try to get better. Yeah, yeah, I think that. In my experience, it's like it's better you to be the manager than someone else above you, you know, like, right. So I think I say yes, but I agree with you. Yeah, yeah, I mean, let's just to be candid for a moment. So so go ahead and start planning for that while you're in your introductory librarian job. Like, how can I move and make my workplace a better place for myself to carve out my own niche? Right. So right. And I think, you know, part of when you're just starting out, part of what you can be doing is observing other managers, either a supervisor or a small branch manager or a large branch manager, observing how other people manage and then the results of that management style or the way they make decisions or how they treat people. I think you can learn an awful lot by watching how others do or don't manage well. Yeah, that's true. That's true. And also you're there's going to be opportunities and it's always hard because you're thinking like, oh, how can I get more money? How can I get a title? But there's a lot of things that you can take on projects. Sure, they don't become, you know, monetary, like, like a monetary gain. Yeah, right away. But it will get you ready. Those experience will it pays off dividends when because things move fast, like it might seem like it's slow and then an opening pops up and then you're like, oh, you can't get ready for that, right? And what you should have the experience before that. So when it does pop up, you're ready and you can apply for it. So I think that's a great way to frame that, right? And because one of the things when I do career workshops and stuff like that, one of the things I'm telling students is consider ways to put yourself in the path of opportunity and part of that is volunteering just for the experience, just to learn what it takes to do X, Y, Z, to build relationships with the people that you volunteer with. You you're doing all of these things throughout your early career and you have no idea how or if or when it will pay off. But then to your point, it pays off when the opportunity opens up and you're ready for it. That is very true. I'm glad you're you're presenting that. That's yeah, I think that's what the students need to know and plan for, you know. So I'm a branch manager for about three years. And then but during this time, I'm kind of learning, I'm doing story time. I'm putting on programs. I'm doing very planning for getting performers to come in. I'm working on trying to find out what management style works for me, what to do. Again, I stress what not to do, you know, and also there came where I was finding that I had certain skills that were valuable to the organization that or that I like to do. So and what work can you give us some examples of those? Yeah. Yeah. So one one point was I had internet down at my branch for about three days. And then I found a work around because of we had to have the catalogs working. So I, you know, rewired some cat five cables and, you know, it wasn't very fancy. It was just kind of like maybe switching routers. And but I did that and then we were able to have some sort of like internet service. And then finally, I T and the main branch circled back to me. And then we were able to get an institute. And then I wrote a procedure on what to do when this happens again. So that was your I think for advice for you students, once you get your job, your first entry level job, you might see certain things that you like to do, some things you don't like to do. But the things that you like to do might tell you where you might be when you're trying to make your next moves in your career. And I and I know that in the library world, people like to stay in the same place. But when I was able to move, it was nice to to move. I'd like, you know, I felt ready. Another experience was when I would muck around. I had to do a whole branch wide reading project. So I learned how to do the ILS. I was like, OK, I'm going to generate statistical statistical reports to find out, you know, what items are being checked out. Perhaps this will be great because I'll have more information. I could pull the volumes that don't work as well and then find out what do. And and so that was a great way of like to simplify my job because I had to do it because I wasn't. I was the only librarian there at at my branch. And then but this also allowed me like, oh, I'm I'm pretty handy with learning integrated library software. Oh, like, what else can I do with this? And so I would run reports. I'd get into like learning the learning the the software. It got out that I could do it. So I trained some other staff on how to do it. And then sometimes they didn't. And also it seemed like that not everyone was able to do the reports. They actually just came back to me like we're just going to ask for. And then I was like, oh, wow, I have like a very specific skill that not a lot of people can do. And that gave me that gave me some are like, oh, wow, that's interesting. Yeah, well, and that word gets out. I just, yeah, everybody keeps coming back to Ryan for that. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, oh, can you do this? I was like, OK, I'll do the report. And then I remember that what my old I was a community college transfer student and my old Alma Mater Cypress College had an adjunct opening, a part time opening. And I was like, you know what, I think it'd be kind of cool just to work there, kind of see how the campus has changed and and give that a go. So that was kind of a lark just to kind of see what it was like. I didn't I didn't really think of it as a career change at the time. It was just purely to see I'd make some extra money. I'd see my old campus and wow, what a kick that would be. Like, you know, and just do that. So that was another start. So. So you're working full time as a branch manager and then you were working at Cypress College. What's interesting to me about that is I can see how that would be doable because at Cypress College, you weren't having to be in a management role. Yeah, yeah, it was also nice. Yeah, they they also had different hours. So I could go I could go there before I started my shift at at my full time job. I could also work that worked at nights if I wanted to. So their hours were more than what we had. Yeah, cool. Yeah. Cool. All right. So then you were working full time as branch manager and part time at Cypress College. Then what happened and and when when it happened, what were you thinking? What was your your thinking behind making the change? Oh, OK. So what ended up happening is my my time at Cypress College ended, made some good contacts. I made a Billy Pashai over there was a great mentor for me. Time pass. And then I noticed that there was a community college next to me that lived just down to my house. And I was like, you know what? Like since I'm not working at Cypress College, I'll apply over at I'll come, you know, there was some time that lagged in between. So but I just put in like a job notification on their website. And then so when a position opened up, then it emailed me and said, hey, you know, you can apply for this. So I had that part time experience at Cypress College, El Camino College, which was just down the street from my house. They they opened. I think I had moved I had moved next to El Camino College. And then I said, oh, hey, I can apply there. And so the job opened up. I applied and they accepted me. And then so I worked there and I was like, oh, this is kind of fun. So we were doing that on a part time basis. Yeah, yeah, while still working full time. OK. And then what ended up happening was based off of that, I applied to other positions because I was able to get training at my part time positions because they have a lot of professional development classes at at at community colleges. And I started to see some more of the inner culture. And it kind of created the shifting of like, oh, wow, I find that really interesting what they're doing. I've been in the public library sphere for about, you know, about 15 years, you know, and I was like, wow, this is kind of that's interesting to me. It's keeping. It's really fresh. And then I applied to other positions. I got them. They weren't for me, but it's it gave me confidence. That's saying, oh, I'm applying for different positions that are out of my skill set and I'm getting offers. So when time came for El Camino College, they had a systems librarian position and I thought, oh, wow, that sounds really interesting to me and something that I would really like to try for. And this is interesting because you had never been a systems librarian in the public libraries that you worked for. You just looked at this and thought, I think I can do that. Yeah, yeah. And I think that being in a managed position gave me that confidence. But also, and I want to get to this point, there's a great book by Rachel Singer Gordon. It's been some years since it came out, but it talks about the accidental systems librarian. I have that book actually on my bookshelf. I'm so glad you mentioned that. And I still think that goes for today. Like, like tech librarianship is very new. And I think you don't need to be have taken all of these classes and done X. Like you you need to just go for it and see what happens because I remember and I think I can speak to that is like when my position, they had to reopen it because there weren't very many other people that applied for it as well. So if you thinking about the students who are in the program now, if they not if they don't necessarily want to become a systems librarian as their first job, but this is something that they think they might be interested in down the road a bit. What should they be taking in the program? What kind of courses? Yeah, so I think taking I really enjoyed having like all the programming classes that I took. So, you know, take my SQL class, take an XML class. Even, you know, take online searching, you know, if they have that I really like that class. But I take those classes. There's also, I believe in ILS, like an interlabor integrated library systems class that's taught for about a unit. Take a practicum, you know, that that might have technical work that you can do. So, yeah, programming classes are really great. You know, that's a really great preparation for that because I not even though that you might not be taking the same language or just having that general programming idea on what programmers, you know, library programs do in that type of program, like computer programs do, will give you a great foundation to move forward because, yeah. That's great because if nothing else, it gives you sort of a conceptual framework. Yes, you can apply over and over again. That is very true. That, yeah. And I have in my notes, Ryan, that you also took as part of prepping for the systems librarian job or applying for it. You took a class in the Canvas online course teaching certification. Is that part of your work? Yeah, yeah. So, so what I did was I was a part time librarian. They they had like, oh, we have these professional development classes. And I said, hey, is there any openings for the online teaching certification class? Ah, and then they said, oh, yeah, we do have an opening. All the full time staff have like kind of, you know, have taken it. I mean, they have passed, you know, or the full time staff that has been full, now we can open up to part timers. And I said, yeah, I would really love to do that. And so that was part of the things like saying yes to something, which was not something that was a had monetary thing right away. But it was like a piece that I could use to for that go. Why do I want to take this? Oh, this will give me a skill in a certification and a learning management software. Probably will need to know this. And and so I took it and I learned a lot and it was great just to learn. But now in my position now, we're working on how to integrate library apps into Canvas. And so my online teaching certification class, that's another piece where you do something first, you might not come to it like right away, but it will be invaluable from that ends. So like, yeah, so I took a class and it's the Information Technology Tools and Applications Coursework in iSchool. So there was an XML class, P-H-E-P Bicycle. That's another one with Professor Perry. Yeah, yeah. So it's good to take those. And I think it's important to hear that because if I were a student going through a degree program now, I might hesitate to take the technology courses on the assumption that by the time I was in a position to apply them, that technology learning that I had had would be out of date. But you make a really good point, which is the specifics might be out of date. But the concepts and the framework and the structural approaches are what you need and what will carry over. Yeah, yeah. I mean, even though I took the PHP class, how long ago is that? That was like 13, almost 13 years ago. It's still getting taught. I still use it, you know, XML. I was just working on XM. I took it like 15 years ago. We're still using that today. I did that for this library software migration project that I've been in the midst of for and I was teaching some of the IT people like that their code was that needed some tweaking. And then I was able to like, oh, I know what this is. So, yes, those concepts like take those class, they are not going to be updated. The conceptual framework that you learn will carry over. So that is just fascinating. Are you seeing at El Camino that there is a trend toward embedded librarianship or is that not happening at El Camino? No, that is very much happening. That is very much happening. So I won't explain it then. I'll let you explain to our listeners what that is. OK, so embedded librarianship, at least at the community college or academic world is, is where you're a librarian and then you meet with the class's professor and then instead of just a bibliographic instruction, like a one shot class, like where you just do one session, you actually have multiple sessions throughout the semester that goes along with assignments and then you craft these classes as they with the professor syllabus, their coursework, their assignments, their papers that they have all right. And it's a great way and it's a good it's a very it's getting to be more popular here at our campus. I think one of my colleagues has like three classes and that's about maybe three or four sessions throughout the semester. And it's a good way to our faculty here really value our librarian skills here. They they know how important information literacy, which is actually one of the core institution at learning outcomes. That's our objectives here at the college is so central and the library research is really central. They they even learn things when we tell them when we teach the class, they go, oh, wow, I didn't know. Just today, I had a class and then the professor was just so thankful that it was so that I was able to find relevant articles because they needed to find photos and I show them exactly how to do that. And they were really thankful for that. So that's embedded library and and for our students, this is a bigger and bigger trend in both academic or sort of traditional for your or more academic institutions, as well as community colleges. And I'm I'm going to step in and make a pitch here. Sure. Yeah. That Ryan, you can back me up or you can say, no, no, no, that's not the case. But one of the things that I have found with the students that I have worked with here in Colorado, which is where I am based, is that over a 20 year period, so many of the students that I have had who were going to go into either academic or public librarianship ended up doing internships at community colleges. And they fell in love with students and the faculty and never left because for them, a community college was like the best of both worlds. The students were incredibly appreciative. The faculty were incredibly appreciative. And you had an an an opportunity to have a very meaningful impact on the lives of the students who we're working with, who were frequently the first students in their family to go to college. So so they I, you know, I'm sort of jealous that you're working in a. Yeah, yeah, that's very true. You hit the nail on the head. I the students here are amazing. They're they're really appreciative. I remember like my interactions with them at the desk. Speaking as a former teen librarian, it's nice to be like kind of working with early adults now. Now I get to see the next phase when they're, you know, from, you know, 12, 12 to 17. Now I'm seeing like the 18 to 21 year old. So it's it's kind of that neat progression that I can build upon that that relationship that I built with teens and kind of carry that type of they're getting older. Yes. But, you know, a lot of them have, I think I can connect with them still with that teen librarianship experience. I just want to interject one more thing about the classes that you'll take at iSchool, the meta meta data class would be really helpful. Digital curation. And then also cataloging cataloging has been so important in my job reading mark records as I'm migrating a lot of bibliographic records. It's and as we move to like bib frame that that will really help you as well, too. In mind, I know people look down on cataloging. It's like difficult, but I think I like it a lot. It's how information is organized and it helped me get my job where I'm at now. That is fascinating because, yes, you're right. We do always make fun of catalogers, but they're actually the only reason we can find anything. Yeah, yeah. And it's that's great advice. Well, that's what that is useful. So, yeah, I could talk with you for the next three hours. Yeah, yeah, I'll be respectful and ask my last question. Sure. What advice would you have for students and alumni who are considering making a career change? For example, if you're someone who is a student in the program and maybe you've worked in an academic library as an aide or something, you're coming in, you're getting your degree and you're thinking, I think I'd like to pivot into public librarianship or we have alumni who are listening and they're thinking, I think I'm done with public librarianship. I'd like to maybe go in a new direction. What advice would you have for people like this? Yeah, as you can see, as my my when I was talking, I was like, oh, I was able to get like a part time position or even if like, I probably would have liked to volunteer to just to kind of see. So I think part time like you want to get paid. So yeah, try to get a part time position. See how it works. You might think that you might not have enough time, but think of it as a great way to get get paid more, but also to to get that experience as well. So if you're that part time library aide in an academic, you want to see public librarianship. See if you can do story time to see if you can sub places, get out on those those library websites, agency, government jobs, dot org, put in job, job interest cards and see what comes up because you can do searching, sitting at your desk for one session, but if you have those out there and then see if you can get a part time job for the alumni. Yeah, I think it's good to just kind of throw your hand in the ring. If you already have experience, then go ahead and try try applying. Who knows, you might get an interview or if you're finding more jobs that are speaking to you more, how can you gain skills at your current position but that will help you, you know, be more attractive when you apply to those other jobs. Does that make sense? Yeah, you know, it's similar. I kind of think of it as bridging from where you are to where you want to be. And and picking up, you know, the first thing you do is identify what what your skills gap is and then find ways to cover that ground. But one of the things that really strikes me about what you're saying about getting a part time job. Yeah, I couldn't agree with that more because another thing that gives you is contacts. It gets you in front of people who see what you can do. They know you're interested in that field. And all of a sudden, where you didn't previously know anyone in that area of librarianship, now you're part of a team. Now, now you know people and you have those connections. And then you start hearing about jobs. Then you start having references. And so I think the advice you're giving is spot on. And I just think that's great. Conferences are great. You know, I went to just one more thing about conferences. I went to like a technical services presentation on something very technical. And I was like, oh, this kind of sounds interesting to me. Like I kind of want to learn. And then I sat there and I was like, wow, it's really nice to hear someone who's very knowledgeable about their field. It kind of let me like, oh, this is something I'm interested. Oh, let me see more. Oh, I really like this, you know, and and that's a great indicator because I always felt like if I heard something or I saw something and my reaction was, I want to know more about that. That's that's a flag right there that tells you this is something you should pursue. Yeah, listen to that voice. Even I didn't need to learn more about teen life. Like I did took I did go to this conference, but it was like, oh, let me try something different. So so when I was a teen librarian, I went to that and I thought, oh, OK, I'm going to log that in. Why is that interesting to me? OK, yeah, cool. So that's it for me. Yeah, unless you get any more. Thank you so very, very much, Ryan, for sharing your story and your insights with us. I think if I were going through high school right now, this would really help me shape what choices I was making and why I was making those choices. So I think it's been incredibly helpful. And to the students and alumni who are listening, I would say, you know, look at Ryan and look what he has done. You guys have got great careers ahead of you. Yeah, yeah, keep at it, everybody. Keep at it. I have some other talks. I've got that paraprofessional to professional talk that you can still find. And I'll be giving another one on tech librarianship. So keep an eye out for that if you want to hear more from me. We'll look forward to it, Ryan. Thanks so much. Yeah, thanks a lot, Kim.