 Welcome back. We have our guest standing by for a first major conversation right here on the breakfast on Plus TV Africa. I hear as federal government through the National University's commission yesterday afternoon we drew it secular which ordered device chancellors, pro chancellors and governing councils to reopening or reopen rather the federal universities across the country. Earlier secular was addressed to all the VCs, the pro chancellors and chairman of governing councils of federal universities ordering them to reopen the university. So the second secular which was also signed like the first one by the director finance and account of the National University's commission, Samo Nasi, indicated the commission was withdrawing the first order. Don't did not explain why. The letter tagged withdrawal of secular, it's cited in the number of that secular which is quite long I won't go into it. Dated September 23, 2022 partly read, I have been directed to withdraw the NUC secular reference number indicated. Dated September 23, 2022 on the above subject. Consequently the said secular stands withdrawn or pro chancellors and chairman of governing councils as well as vice chancellors of federal universities are to please note further development and information would be communicated to all relevant stakeholders. Please accept the assurances of the executive secretary's warmest regards. Joining us to discuss what can be termed a day of a ding dong affair. If you want to put it that way is a lecturer, senior lecturer and political scientist from the Bayero University counter professor. Sanif Aga is great to have you back on the breakfast. Thank you. You've been in the education sector in Nigeria for a while now, hence you're with us in a successful career as a professor. Have you seen anything quite like this before? Yeah, professor, can you hear me please? Yes, yes, I mean you've been around for quite some time in the academia. Have you seen anything like this before? Yeah, you see, yeah, I've been in the profession for over 40 years. And throughout my stay, I think I have seen something similar to this, like the time of Brengida when Asu was banned and we were ejected out of the university campus. And so in terms of draconian measures, I can say, yes, we have seen similar things over time. But in terms of confusion, you know, given Oda withdrawing it, I think this is the past time we are experiencing it. What would you say, you know, the problem is at this point? Is it that we don't understand the dynamics of education? What exactly could he be? Is it really true that, you know, we don't, we don't really have the resources, because that's what the government is saying. And I mean, the questions are almost endless, but I want you to unsign this slide. Are the concerns of Asu not valid? I mean, the issues that are asking for, is it rational? What exactly is going on? We'd like you to show your thoughts. Yeah, you see, I believe it is rational because over the time we have seen how the system deteriorated to such a level that we sometimes conduct lectures even in open spaces. And I think this is not good for the country, because the country cannot develop above and it's on educational level. So I think what Asu is asking is not to go into the hands of the electorate, but to, you know, inject it into the system. And the government, which is saying that it doesn't have resources. But at the same time, you know, it budgeted 6 trillion Naira for oil subsidy, which is, you know, a bog of things. And the other thing, if you look at it over the years and what the government is trying to do now, it has spent over 16 trillion supporting business people. So if you can just inject less than 10% of what you are injecting to private sector, I think you can go over this problem. But even the government, you know, I say there is no money and it is a lot of money in other sectors. I don't see Asu will even raise an eyebrow because they will believe that it is a genocide. But here you are, the government is pumping lots of money more than 10 times what Asu is asking into the system. And you are still telling the people that you don't have money to inject into the educational sector. And you know, educational sector, what Asu is talking about is about the common mind making it affordable for the poor people. All right. What do you think is responsible for the U-turn? I think there are two issues to me. One, I think is the legal dimension. You know, the government erroneously or rather wrongly took the case to courts, industrial courts, and now Asu has appealed. And the government sees that if it goes ahead with the whole issues, it may be it will be seen as an attempt to do things out of the law. That is one. Secondly, I think the government has started, you know, listening to opinions that it will be too dangerous for the government to open the universities and to put the students together in place. So, you know, you are not igniting a time bomb, putting the students in one place, and you are starting containing tomorrow and then doing nothing, I think that will be too dangerous. So to my own thinking, I think these are the major reasons why the government decided to make the U-turn. But do you also think that this is connected to the fact that the government, I mean, if you look at it, campaigns will be starting tomorrow. And this might also be connected to having some sort of political gains. Do you think that there's any connection with the order that's been put out, reversing that order of the U-turn, with the fact that campaigns are just starting? Okay. No, I think that the idea to reopen was to scorch a political point, that they are doing something about it after starving with their masks. But now, I think they are seeing the possible consequences of getting the students into the universities and nothing is taking place. So, you know, the anger will mount higher, and you don't know what is going to happen. So I believe perhaps the government might have listened to, like what the committees of the Vice Chancellor said, and perhaps I don't know whether they might have gotten stupidly reported that it will be too dangerous to allow the students in one place sitting idle. All right. In your opinion, the legal aspect of this, you know, with a lecturer saying that they will not go back to the classroom, when such an order is issued by, is given to the NUC, is NUC an independent organization which is able to say we on our own are issuing the orders? Do they take directives from the Minister of Education? Because I know that, for instance, for any university to be approved, for courses in universities to be approved, the NUC embarks on inspection visits, you know, to determine what should be done, you know, they would say, okay, we need more doctors or people with a PhD in the lecturing department of this, this is the faculty, for instance. Does the NUC take directives on what to do and how to carry out its activities from the Minister of Education? Oh, yes, it's true. You know, NUC is the Ministry of Education and, you know, the leadership now of NUC is working hand in glove with the Minister of Education. So even if it is on a personal basis, they will do that one. And constitutionally and legally, they are under the education of directives from the Ministry. I think that by the NUC, you know, took what it did on the issue of the two circulars, because even if they didn't come out to say that they were directed, but I think it's a fact that NUC cannot issue directives without the directing of the Minister. And look at it, they just put a director and say, okay, he's the one who's reopening, I direct him, the university will open, and he's the one who's saying that the university should not be reopened. So I think from that one, you see clearly even what he said that he was directed. I don't think it was those, the NUC secretary that directed him. It was from above that he was directed. Well, what do you make of the elections? I mean, the elections are almost here, we're talking about 2023. And the schools are still shot down. I mean, students have not returned to the classroom. So how many more months again? It might just look like, this might continue for a long time. Do you think that this would have an implication on the elections, especially the choice of who the people would actually cast their vote for? Yeah, I think it will have. But I don't believe that it is going to last long because for political reasons, you see that the politicians will come out to do something so that they can score chief political points. Already, I think a middle ground has reached, reached, but everybody is, or each side is trying to change, you know, its models. It is all models so that they cannot be seen as succumbing to the other. But once the elections are all started, I mean, the campaign started, so I believe some politicians will take the initiative so that they can score chief political points because they know it will be dangerous and disastrous for them to keep the students for long to the election period at home because they don't know what will be the consequence of that. Okay, Prof. So we hear that, of course, now let's imagine for a second, I assume that the second secular was not issued. When the pro-chancellors, vice-chancellors, chairman of governing councils meet and then open up the universities, how are they able, would they be able to compel the lecturers to go back to the classroom? Since most of them have been saying that they will not teach, they will continue to do their research from home and like one lecturer from the University of Abaddon said, conduct their community service from home. Is there a way for the university establishment administrators to compel the lecturers if that first circular was what was held on to? Is there a way they would have been able to compel the lecturers to return to the classroom? I don't think they have the support. They can try to take their draconian measures and say, okay, we are not going to pay you, you must come, then you must sign register and so on. But I think doing that will be counterproductive because what Asu is saying is that if the salaries that we sell are paid, they will not work hard to compensate they missed. Now, if you post them to go, you are now breaking, hello, you cannot tell somebody to go and work, you didn't pay him. So at the end of it, the student will be the victims. Even if the lecturers decided to go and work, they will not continue with what they missed, which means people are going to automatically repeat and those who are admitted newly cannot be admitted. I mean, so much seems that is there. So I think the government is aware of all these things, that is why they are trying to get, you know, landing ground for the system to go. That is number one. Number two, if you look at it, technically, the universities are not close. It's only that the lecturers are not going to take them place, but, you know, administration continues. So when you say, go and open, they haven't closed, so are they going to open? So I think that some of the issues that maybe the policymakers look at and try to see a safer way to get around the issue. Professor Sane, do you think that that's a solution to ending the strike action when it comes to us? I mean, having lecturers every other time lecturing the students, is there a possible solution to ending the strike actions by lecturers? Yeah, I think there is. Already, you see, since they reached the agreement of 2009, and, you know, the government has memorandum of understanding, memorandum of action, and so on. Had it been the government is sincere in implementing these things, I think, we'll be able to head of strikes like that. Because what they are asking is, something such amount of money is a long-term plan. You are not going to put it this year. You can start to implement it gradually, like what a former president would like to eat by putting about 200 billion, I think. So over the years, they could have done and reached that place. But when the government decided to say they are not going to do it, I think that is well by problem. And the other thing is, if you look at it virtually, everything that Assad tried to do is to try to conform within the laws, okay? Even on strike, they didn't go off outwardly like that. They started by giving notice and doing this and so on, so that at least they study the laws and take cover in that one. If not for that one, I think they could have been crushed easily on legal ground. So I think if the government could come down, you know, Assad will shift a little, they will reach in the middle, and the issue of strike will be as soon as possible. Some people suspect that the second circular was issued as a result of probably some realization that there is an application by the union, ASU, represented by Fermi Falano Essein, who is a legal counsel to ASU in this matter. There's an appeal before I think both the National Industrial Court, because that's the Court of Origination, original trial, and then the Court of Appeal in Nambuja over this interlocutory injunction order made by the National Industrial Court. So some suspect that the second circular could be because of that realization that there's an appeal which was accompanied by a request for a state of execution, pending the determination of that appeal on notice. If that state of execution request is denied ASU by the Court of Appeal, whilst the appeal is going on, if that state of execution request is denied ASU, meaning that the order from the National Industrial Court still holds, would you expect the lecturers to return to work in the Middle East? I told you that what ASU tries to do is to work within the laws. So if the laws say that they have to go, I mean the appeal concluded that they have to go, I think they will go. But what is likely going to happen is that the issue of no work, no pay, will still stand, because legally you cannot expect somebody to work while you don't pay him. So at the end of the year, we are going to have another crisis. They will open and they will go, but they will not make up what they missed, and they will say let's start from a clean slate. And that will be too dangerous for the system. I have to go now. Thank you so much, Professor Sani Fagi. We appreciate your time. Thank you very much. Professor Sani Fagi is a lecturer and political scientist at Bayero University in Kano. We appreciate you always and as we approach the political season, we hope that we have your time to share your thoughts. We'll take a breakdown. When we return, it will be time for us to look at the second conversation with the issue of the national group collapse. Please stay with us.