 Welcome. I'm Mark Uptegrove, the President and CEO of the LBJ Foundation. We're pleased to partner with Baker Botts and the Baker Institute for Public Policy at Rice University on a conversation with Secretary James Baker, New York Times Chief White House correspondent Peter Baker and New York staff writer Susan Glasser on Peter and Susan's book, The Man Who Ran Washington, The Life and Times of James A. Baker III. Mr. Secretary, we'll start with you. You had a battle with COVID-19 earlier this year and we were all worried about you. How are you doing? How are you feeling? I'm doing great, Mark. Thank you very much. I just got back from my ranch in Wyoming where I was elk hunting with my son and grandson and so I'm able to do that so I feel really pretty good and fortunately I had what turned out to be a pretty mild case of the virus but I want to tell everybody who's tuned in, you don't want to get it. It is no fun. It really hammers you. But I'm doing great. Thank you. So as Susan Glasser said before the call, we all want your genes, Mr. Secretary. Susan Peter, congratulations on The Man Who Ran Washington. My first question is more a lifestyle question. You have out the Blockbuster book. We have a president with a penchant for making news and we're in the midst of the most consequential election of our lifetimes. How are you doing it? How are you balancing all these things? What does your life look like right now? We may be the only people who are grateful for having to stay home. Mark, we're sitting in our living room talking to you now doing all of our book appearances by Zoom and then picking up the laptop and Peter's writing stories for the New York Times and I'm writing my column but we're super grateful to you really as the godfather in some ways of this book and of course to Secretary Baker for enabling us over years and it took us a long time to write this book. Well, Peter, what did you want to achieve with The Man Who Ran Washington? Well, I think first of all we were surprised to learn when you and I talked about this way back in 2013 when we sat and talked about who had not had a worthy biography written of them major figure in American life and it was really stunning to think that nobody had written something on Secretary Baker. Not only was he Secretary of State during this incredibly consequential time but as you pointed out he had his hand in so many other events over the course of really a quarter century in America and we thought his story tells us a lot about Washington in that moment as well. How things worked, how they didn't work and how things have changed since then. So we thought that it was a great story about him but also a larger story about Washington, about America in general. Susan, I knew about obviously I've read a lot about Secretary Baker's career but in reading your book I was reminded of so much more that he accomplished. I wonder if you could give us a cursory look at Secretary Baker's very consequential career as a government public servant. Well that's right I mean you know I think first of all we've been calling it Secretary Baker the world's most successful mid-career switch you know not even coming to Washington until your early 40s and yet you know assembling this remarkable portfolio that began with rising in barely one year's time from a relatively obscure position at the Commerce Department to running the campaign of the incumbent President of the United States Jerry Ford you know in and of itself a remarkable thing but Mark to your question you know from that period when he comes to Washington as Ronald Reagan's chief of staff in the White House you know when you look at the record of the number of deals that were made at a time when now we can't even manage to come together as a country to pass a relief package for coronavirus victims in this economic tsunami you know Secretary Baker was able to work with Democrats on social security reform on tax reform in 1986 he was you know the first thing after the very divisive 1988 campaign was to sit down with Jim Wright and to put an end to the political fighting over US support for the contra wars and of course he negotiated with Soviets numerous arms control packs as well as the framework for the German reunification talks we're celebrating the 30th anniversary of today so you know I could go on but it's a pretty remarkable record at a time when any deal seems elusive in Washington today I want to quote you Peter Susan about Secretary Baker's time as what you call the the gold standard for White House chiefs of staff and you write in the book he had seen how Washington chewed up and had chewed up and spit out would be power brokers it was a tough city Jubers was an occupational hazard one day you were the man next to the president the next day you were camp aside no longer relevant even humiliated so mr secretary not only survived you thrived what was the key to your success well I think Mark one thing I was always imbued with a with a work ethic my my father and mother always taught me never to start anything that I wasn't prepared to finish and to finish what I started but the reason I think that I was successful in those jobs is because I was working for some extraordinarily fine wonderful capable presidents of the United States and they were presidents who thought that they that the reason they were in Washington leading the country was to do the people's business and to get things done and that's what drove me the idea that we ought to we ought to get things done for the American people but I think primarily my success is attributable to the wonderful presidents I worked for but also the extraordinarily well qualified assistants who worked with me and who came to Washington with me mr secretary how did you it clearly you don't have a good relationship with the president unless you engender their trust how did you establish the trust of the president you worked for well I think the way you do that is to perform for them and to do what within legal constraints and reason they want you to do and to do it as expeditiously as possible but to let them know through your contact with them that they can and they can trust your word they can rely on you that if they assign a task to you you're going to do everything in the world to try and complete that task I didn't have any trouble frankly I worked for for three full time for three wonderful presidents Jerry Ford Ronald Reagan and George HW Bush and of course part time for a fourth George W Bush and I never had any doubt whatsoever in four years as Ronald Reagan's chief of staff there was only one time that I felt a little bit like I wasn't appreciated that they didn't maybe trust me and you know I was the interloper I came into the Reagan administration having run two campaigns against Ronald Reagan and yet he asked me to be his White House chief of staff I don't think that's ever going to happen again in American in American politics but it says something about the broad gauge nature of Ronald Reagan with George Bush of course I had I didn't have to establish or prove my trust to awareness he and I had been friends for 40 years he was my daughter my daughter's godfather and and I had run all of his campaigns so there was no no problem establishing trust there clearly Susan you write in the book that Secretary Baker was the most consequential secretary of state since Henry Kidder how so well you know look you could write a whole book and many people have written books just about this remarkable period of 1989 to 1991 when the hinges of world history were clearly shifting and unlike this present moment they were largely shifting in the US's favor but you know when Peter and I did this book we had spent four years in the former Soviet Union just a decade after these events I think we came to a renewed appreciation for the fact that you know in hindsight it may look inevitable but it wasn't really inevitable and in particular when you look at the actions that Secretary Baker took often you know he himself would probably tell us today he's a you know cautious man but he took some very bold steps to make sure that the German unification which nobody expected inside his State Department before November 1989 they then acted very swiftly and by the winter the early winter of 1990 he helped you not only come up with but to get agreement from feuding allies over a framework for German unification which was signed just you know barely six months after that by the next fall imagine that Saddam Hussein had invaded Kuwait sooner imagine that Gorbachev had had a coup by hardliners sooner all of these events occurred and so I think this is a classic example of a secretary of state who mattered you know at a moment that mattered as well right it's it's the marriage of the two Mr. Secretary there was no certainty that the Cold War would end peacefully and lead to a new era in the world what do you think made the difference during that during that time in in in US leadership well I think I think that we were consistent you know the French and the British and the and the Soviet Union didn't want to see Germany unified but it was a feeling strong feeling of George H.W. Bush President Bush and Helmut Kohl the Chancellor of West Germany that you know the West writ large and talked for many years about freeing the peoples of the captive nations of Eastern Europe well some of those people were in the German Democratic Republic East Germany and we talked about it for 40 years well when the time came where we had an opportunity to try and do something about it it would have been a crime not to try so we tried and we were fortunately successful over the objections of the British the French and and the Soviet Union and as Susan just pointed out there was a narrow window of opportunity to get this done we were quite fortunate that we got it done and there were a lot of there were a lot of people who didn't think it was going to make it at the time Peter you write of Secretary Baker he was not defined by his era he helped to define it where did James Baker make his most significant mark well I think continuing what we've just been saying I think you're right to say it's not inevitable like it could have been so different this was a very volatile moment we remember it in hagiographic terms almost because it did work out so well but it could have so easily gone the wrong way Gorbachev could have been overthrown earlier the hardliners could have you know come in and set tanks into the east they could have stopped they had 300,000 troops in east Germany at the time of the negotiation that Secretary Baker is talking about here they could have said no and it was very easy it's very easy to imagine a scenario that would have been catastrophic in a lot of ways and I think therefore you have to say that while the forces of history were moving and they were not you know precipitated by Secretary Baker or President Bush necessarily it was the fact that they figured out how to harness them and steer them in a direction that led to a positive outcome that was probably the most significant uh you know achievement of this period. Mr. Secretary as Peter's alluding to you presided as Secretary of State when America had triumphed in the Cold War and stood a stride in the world as the uncontested superpower um how do you think America has perceived abroad today? Well you know the the goal as as I understood it and do understand it having spent four years at Secretary of State is that you really want to be respected by your allies and feared by your adversaries I don't think that's any longer the case today I'm sad to say I particularly don't think that we are respected by our allies and there are a lot of differences now between America and her allies and I think there are some who do not appreciate how very very important our alliances are to our international well-being and to the well-being therefore of our of our domestic polity. I just think that uh that it's too bad that we have not nurtured these alliances which have been so important to America over the course of the past 40 or 50 years. I do think we're still perhaps feared by our adversaries as well we should be um and and that part is probably alright but we're but we're not respected by our allies and the reason is I think sadly Mark we're not leading I've always said that it's really important for America to lead internationally I firmly believe that when America is engaged internationally and is leading that we are a force for good that we are that we are a force for peace and stability we never all of our intervention none of our interventions are for a gain for America in terms of territory or or treasure or anything like that uh but there used to be a greater appreciation of America's leadership role in the world than there is today because we were doing a better job of leading than we are today Mr. Secretary, if you were at the helm uh today what would you do to ensure that we regain our position as a leader in the world? Well I think we have to the first thing I'd do is see if we can repair our alliances, restrain them, get them, put them in the kind of good shape they were in during the Cold War and during our period in office. We relied heavily on those. Germany would never have been unified without our relationship with the Federal Republic of Germany. We wouldn't have won the Cold War by ourselves. It was our it was our strong alliances, the transatlantic alliance with Europe and our security alliance with Japan and Korea and the Pacific and those things all need they need care and feeding and tending and that's something we ought to really pay attention to and start doing again as we move into a new administration. What do you think the greatest trouble spot in the world is? I think that one thing that well let me say one thing that I think has happened that is good is that finally we are we are confronting China with respect to its broken promises to the international community. I'm one who worked really hard to get try and get China into the world trading organization and we got them in and we thought and perhaps erroneously that this would cause them to change their behavior but he didn't and they have not they have not kept their promises to the rest of the world. So I think that that's really we're doing well in that regard. You asked about what the biggest threats are facing America. That's not exactly what you asked but that's part of that that includes your question. Our political dysfunction is the worst challenge the biggest challenge that we face. We've got to find a way to get back to doing business the way we used to where the the two major political parties would cooperate and compromise to do the people's business. We've got that problem. We've got the problem of of the fiscal kicking fiscal debt bomb. Nobody talks about it anymore but it is huge and when when interest rates go up again and they're going to go up again you're going to see terrible terrible burgeoning of that already too large fiscal debt bomb. It says the former secretary of the treasury. Peter I want to go back to Secretary Baker's point about the dysfunction in Washington. You've covered Washington for a couple decades now and and you've seen a whole lot in your experience. What is the biggest change in Washington since James Baker was in government. Yeah I think look we shouldn't over romanticize the past. It was partisan in his era just as as partisan today and there were certainly moments of dysfunction then as there are now but what's different is that there wasn't the that wasn't the only thing right that wasn't the consuming nature of Washington at that time. Secretary Baker will tell you he could be fiercely competitive in an election and then sit down after the election and work things out with Democrats and the purpose of the election was to get to the point where you could govern and I think today what you see is in some way the opposite the purpose of governing is to set up the next election and that there doesn't seem to be the incentive structure that there was back then much less the people to take advantage of it to compromise. Compromise today is a dirty word. If you compromise it means you have given up something you've sold out. You've abandoned your party or your principles whereas in that era in Baker's era there was a value of political virtue and a political reward for showing bipartisanship for managing this across the island say let's solve big problems and I think that's what we see as the most significant difference between that his Washington and today's Washington. Susan as you write in the book one of the lessons of Secretary Baker's career is as you write when the tectonic plates of history move move with them would somebody as as competent and as adaptable as James Baker succeed in today's Washington. You know Mark we've been getting that question a lot understandably I do think that you know at the moment we're living in Secretary Baker's reputation for sheer competence you know that's a word that we don't hear a lot right now and that would go far in this or any moment in history and so you know in part you could you could read his story as some eternal lessons for how to get ahead and succeed in politics you know don't lie to the press is one particular lesson that Peter and I appreciate of you know but look competence you know always succeeds but the broader question of to what end I do think the structural impediments to working together is is a fundamental shift in our politics right now nobody is seeking the 51% strategy you know people are no longer seeking to persuade others they're seeking to mobilize those who already agree with them and I think that you know look Secretary Baker you know made a difference in many different ways not just by you know showing up at hard work he's very modest to say that was the secret of his success because this town is filled with hardworking you know workaholic lawyers who call everybody back and they don't all get to do those remarkable array of things I think we'd like to think that a Secretary Baker could come in but in in all honesty looking at this administration you know there's no level there's no one who could manage and constrain the situation that we're in right now that has to be the inevitable conclusion from already having I think more chiefs of staff in the role than anyone else already having more national security advisors in this White House then since the position was created in the aftermath of World War II Mr. Secretary Peter and Susan right of Donald Trump in the book's introduction he disparaged long-standing alliances that you alluded to earlier vowed to rip up free trade packs decried American leadership outside its borders casually embraced a new nuclear arms race and sought to reverse the globalization that had defined international politics and economics since the end of World War II he opposed just about everything that Baker and the modern Republican Party supported and yet they write that while you momentarily considered writing for Joe Biden you said to them please don't say that I will vote for for Biden I will vote for the Republican I really will I won't leave my party so Mr. Secretary why are you not willing to leave a party that has so manifestly left you well because the main reason of Mark is that I am a conservative now when I became Ronald Reagan's chief of staff and the hard line ideologues in the Reagan administration wouldn't give me credit for being a conservative they beat up on me pretty good but look I'm a Texan I'm a conservative and and I really believe in conservative principles and values I believe in limited government I believe in pro-growth economic policies I believe in a strong defense I believe in conservative judges all of these things make a big difference in my in my calculus I don't try to defend our current chief executive I think they write it they quote me and they're saying he's his own worst enemy and they and maybe quote me as saying something more negative than that but but at the end of the day and let me say one thing before at the end of the day I'm a conservative and I am concerned about the direction of our country I have 19 grandchildren and five great-grandchildren and I want to see the kind of America that I was privileged to enjoy see that enjoyed by my grandchildren and great-grandchildren and I look at that democratic platform which Joe Biden is going to have to support and it scares the hell out of me and I want to say though having said that I like Joe Biden I've worked with him he's been down here to the Baker Institute I think at least twice I respect him as a man who likes as I did to reach across the aisle and probably try to get some things done but I worry when I look at that platform about how really radical and liberal it is so that's why I am going to stay where I am it's not a party thing it's really not an individual thing it's it has to do with the future direction of our country mr. K you mentioned you worked with Joe Biden while you were in government Joe Biden was the senator from Delaware right you mentioned the dysfunction he was vice president too and I went out there and worked with him with him and with president Obama and others on the new start treaty and who helped to help with that a little bit and that's what I meant by that no I understand and and I you know Joe Biden again you work with him in in his capacity as senator and vice president you mentioned the dysfunction in Washington we alluded to the divisions in our country would Joe Biden be good in uniting the country and bringing Washington together as a consensus builder it would depend entirely upon the step and degree to which he is bound to that platform and the deal that he had to cut with the more progressive elements in his party I think I mean Joe is essentially one who would like to sit down and reach across the aisle and find an agreement find a deal just like I mean I just like I used to do all the time that's the way you govern that's the way you ought to govern politics is the art of compromise as Peter said compromise today is a dirty word my worry about Joe frankly is that he has to pay a lot of attention now to those elements that control the democratic party which has moved very very far left and that scares me one of the differences in ensuring that there was a peaceful resolution to the Cold War Mr. Secretary you talked about it is the humility and restraint by the 41st president George Bush and frankly it mirrored your own humility and restraint I wonder did the president's performance in the debate last week give you pause about about Donald Trump and his ability to be the commander-in-chief of our nation well I've already told you I had I had reservations about our current chief executive that doesn't mean that I'm I'm not going to vote for him because of the larger issue that we just went through but I thought that debate was a disaster but I didn't think that I didn't think either candidate was particularly effective but what I really regretted was the nature of the food fight and that's not the way presidential debates ought to ought to go and I and I frankly felt really sorry for Chris Wallace whom I've known forever and he was a wonderful journalist but it was terrifically difficult to control to control the dialogue in that debate and I thought the debate when in fact was a food fight having had COVID-19 Mr. Secretary and experiencing the virus first hand it how would you would you have managed the COVID-19 crisis differently than the Trump administration has well I don't know perhaps so what one thing that I think is is important to remember is how vital message discipline is when you're running a white house or when you're running a campaign you ought to make sure that everybody has the has the story and that everybody sticks to it and that it's uniform and you don't change your your story every every so often and I'm afraid that's what was going on in the briefings on the on the virus in the in the press room at the White House right uh Susan what is the what is the legacy of James a Baker the third how do you think he will go down in history well uh you know secretary Baker is is good at speaking for himself as we've heard uh you know what Peter and I were struck by in our conversations with him uh was always a you know a real palpable desire uh to escape the label of you know really having been a political handler a political strategist and to be remembered as a statesman and a diplomat in addition to being a Texan I'm quite sure that that would be a big part of his legacy and his family's legacy but you know what I would say is that I might disagree a tiny bit and say that he was a master political strategist but in a big definition of politics whether that was politics in the american sense running five national presidential campaigns or politics in the international sense and that he really brought in fact a canny politicians sense to the necessities of creating a post cold war uh order that would endure and that it was uh politics in the biggest possible sense defining the age from the end of watergate to the end of the cold war either what are your thoughts on president or whether on secretary Baker's legacy that would that might have been a fraud but well look you know he would have been an interesting president I think that would have been a different counterfactual in history right um I agree that I think Susan said I think he wants obviously and he can speak for himself but I think that he would point to his time as secretary of state of the statesman the first of the two memoirs he wrote of course was about his four years as secretary of state he didn't want at first anyway to focus on the rest of his story later I think and I'm glad he did uh wrote a political memoir about his time uh you know in other jobs but you know I think that it's it's uh you know you you quote the book saying he was the most consequential secretary of state since Kissinger I could even make the argument more so honestly I with all respect to secretary Kissinger I know Secretary Kissinger has a certain celebrity that's uh that precedes everybody but I think that that four-year period in our lifetime uh you know in the in the post cold in the post world war two era you know stands out as as as Susan said the hinge of history changing so I think that's that's it's hard to beat that legacy. Mr. Secretary uh uh clearly you will be remembered as a as a great statesman but as Peter and Susan pointed out you ran five presidential campaigns which is absolutely stunning uh as we approach uh the presidential election of of 2020 and election day do you worry about the soundness of our system? You know I really don't mark I I think our institutions are strong I know there's a there are people out there who are really worried about whether we're going to um eliminate some of our important institutions or diminish them or um but but I have perhaps having spent so much time uh uh with President's close up I I have a I have a sense of the restraints that they are subject to uh and I I just do not I really don't worry about American democracy I worry about some discreet things from time to time I I you know I I'll have to tell you probably think this I'm saying this just because I'm a republican it's not true I worry about court packing I packing the supreme court I worry about uh attacks on our constitution that are done in a legal way but I do not worry about the system surviving we you you read a lot some nowadays about our democracy is under attack or under assault there are so many restraints upon a president's ability uh to to get off some rails if you will that I really don't worry about that our our system of facts and balances is quite effective and quite strong in my view I won't ask you who you will vote for Mr. Secretary because you've made that pretty clear but I will ask you how will you cast your vote where well how will you do it by mail will you go to the polls how do you I'll go I'll go to the polls and vote absentee during this how do you want to be remembered uh when when the history is written about your your service in government how do you wish to be remembered you know I went to a an event after I left uh as uh after I left government after Jerry Ford lost to Jimmy Carter in a campaign that I ran for for Jerry Ford or led for Jerry Ford I went to an event in Lake Como and there were a number of people there there were political people and substantive people and one of the guys who was there was a guy named Bob Schrum I you all may remember about he was a Kennedy political operative and he was he was quite accomplished politically and and uh I remember the moderator asked or asked her question of of Schrum that uh that had to do with substance some substantive issue and Schrum said look you are asked Baker that question he said he does politics and policy I just do politics well I'm really proud frankly of the fact that I was able to achieve something in politics and in policy and that's why I entitled my first memoir about my time as secretary state the politics of diplomacy because I think my political experience really helped me uh in in in those jobs both white house chief of staff which is a big political job yes but then as treasury secretary and as secretary state but you asked me how I want to be remembered is that what you asked me I guarantee I'll take I'll tell you how I want to be remembered I want to be remembered as the guy who ran five presidential campaigns for three different republican presidents and then served as chief of staff for two different republican presidents and then served for almost four years as secretary of treasury and four years as secretary state and and spent 12 years in washington and left unindicted that's how I want to be remembered I think that's my biggest accomplishment well I have no doubt that you will be remembered for all that and more and Mr. Secretary I can't let you go without asking you what advice would you give young aspiring Jim bakers who wish to make a career in government service I know you've talked about the the five p's and the importance of hard work your five p rule which is prior preparation prevents poor performance but but it alluded to a humility you're you're not telling us something some key ingredient to your great success what would you tell young folks today well I think that if you want if you want to have a role in policy you need to understand that politics is the way you get to practice policy I've always seen the two and Peter and Susan make this quite clear in a at two discrete pursuits politics is one thing politics is is getting elected so that you can do policy and and therefore I would tell young people that you ought to figure out some way at some point in your career to do some politics you don't have to get out and run for the legislature every time the bell rings like the Dalmatian jumping on the fire truck and so forth you can you can wait you can do something else significant with your life before this is a theory that George H. W. Bush had and pretty much that I share do something consequential with your life and then if you want to go into politics go into politics but remember that it takes a lot of grunge work politics is crossing the T's and dotting the I's and a lot of it is just grunge work but that's what gives you the opportunity to practice policy and and I think it also reward gives you gives you a sense of of reward or accomplishment that you've been able to put something back into the system you put something back into the system not just by practicing policy or extra you know exercising coffee but by participating in politics we are the best country in the world notwithstanding what you read a lot about how terrible America is and so forth I tell people I flew all all over the world for four years and I and I had the opportunity to see how other countries and other people hold us in such high regard people know everybody wants to come to America nobody wants to leave America so I don't like to hear all of the negativism that we hear and and and the condemning of America that goes on we've got the finest country in the world and it's a country that every citizen ought to find a way to somehow give something back to it's a wonderful note on which to end Peter Baker Susan Glasser congratulations on the man who ran Washington a a remarkable account of of Secretary Baker's consequential life and Secretary Baker thank you for your remarkable service to our nation thank you Mark very much on behalf of our co-hosts the Baker Institute for Public Policy at Rice University and Baker bots thank you for joining us signed copies of the man who ran Washington are available for sale at lbjstore.com now offering curbside pickup for those local to Austin these programs are made possible by contributions from our members you can support us by joining friends of the lbj library at lbjfriends.org see you next time