 What's up everybody and welcome back to For The Minions the weekly show that we do that's all about the various third-person movies out out there That kind of on the horizon. Um, usually we have a special guest, but he he knows showed on us twice so uh If you if you do want to be on the show just hit me up I do have about two months worth of guests playing but um, yeah, it's just gonna be jelly and I this time Which is okay. It's the holiday season, you know people Schedules get mixed up in the views, but uh, anyway, yes I'm your host the man goose and joining me as always my friend and co is that always shows up Jelly knees. That's me. I mean man goose just wanted me all to himself for the holiday So I get it man. It's I understand. I would want me to myself too. So That's uh That's some confidence right there That one can't get the uh, come what's his name from solids of the lamps What Do you want to fuck me? I'd I'd fuck me I have no idea what his name is, but brilliant bill wild bill wild bob something like that. Oh What a great movie silence of the lambs wild knees Let me say to you when you know yourself all to yourself. All right So with that weird ass introduction, let's Let's move on to the news and updates. We got news and updates for all four of them this time We got predecessor ethereal over prime and fault. Um, let's start out with predecessor because predecessor updates are few and far between You don't really get a lot of them. They did like an end of year update which A lot of this stuff is kind of old news like not everything was actually an update It was just kind of a reiteration really. Yeah But um And they're new y which I hadn't seen before which I wasn't I don't know if that was in the last stress test that they did But it looks okay. It's just uh, you know, it's a ui whatever Nothing spectacular or anything that I wasn't wowed by it. It's just But it doesn't look bad though. So Uh, and then the main thing was their map they had a video a short video showing The visual updates to their map and it looks absolutely gorgeous. It looks beautiful. Uh, jelly. What do you think of that map video? Did that their map Huge kudos to them because in all of their tests the map well in their recent stress test their map has played beautifully It looks incredible like they found Fringe I think it is does a great job of really implementing all those aspects really well Yeah, I've noticed too on their website. They have their founding members and fringe is listed as one of their Their founding members. He's been with them since the very beginning He's been doing amazing things with the map since the very beginning So yeah, definitely shout out the fringe that dude is a beast an absolute beast The hilarious dude too if you've ever talked to fridge that dude is so funny. Oh, yeah, absolutely and then um so with the new map they had like They had like the the prime guardian head mounted On pillars like next to the the pit and the fangtooth head I guess is they didn't show that but I guess that would be mounted above the fangtooth pit That's a pretty nice little indicator to tell you where you are on the map if you can't Look at the mini map That's really subtle fits the theme of the area but gives a lot of information at the same time. I think it's huge Now what do you think of that arrows like in the prime pit? You've got arrows leading up to certain entrances looks like entrances that maybe calari could flip over or get in Could portal over what do you think of those arrows? Do you think they're just there for that or? I think they're probably just there as indicators um Just that you can get up and over certain instances of walls because like If I remember correctly the last stress test had arrows over one of the river buffs Okay, I got one game in so it's hard to say with absolute certainty, right? But it's I'm pretty sure it had arrows like over one of the river buffs. You could go up and over that way toward Like the red buff. Um, I think they're a great idea for new players I think for me I would love to be able to remove them Because while they really fit the aesthetic of the map I would love I think they do just take away just a little bit from it from just pure aesthetic And once I learn what those locations are I would love to be able to toggle those off And just yeah be able to look at the map and it's full glory But I think they're a great idea for sure And they fit really well Like they've done a good job of implementing them into the map and not making them secondary right But I mean it does look like something out of a racing game like it would be on mario kart or some shit like that like I saw your video you're like you want mario kart boosting after you go through the yeah, wouldn't that be great Do it let's do it Actually, I wouldn't mind that little boosts throughout the map that you could take That's didn't pred used to have the ones over mid lane that you could shoot up and over. Yeah, they did they didn't yeah Maybe they're gonna bring those back. I would love that. I think that was a cool traversal tool. Yeah Yeah, I mean it paragon themselves had that it was like an air flow and you could hit that and bounce over Or if you're a wukong you could just walk, you know no big deal If you're a wukong you can do whatever the hell you wanted because you were wukong And they had the announcer pack which I thought was daniel hodge. It's not daniel hodge tiger strike did those Oh, wow, okay. It sounds exactly it does like daniel hodge is like, um He sent them an audition video and I remember listening to like he did a video of it and everything sounds exactly like They're like it the word prime has spun. There's like that at the end So I guess that was like let's do it five times and then immediately recording his version of like, okay, okay this Okay, this I mean, it sounds pretty good. Um, I've already gotten a comment saying somebody says has sounds like it has a little too much echo on it um It's a oak owl studios is doing their their sound engineering and stuff. So okay And along with that we got the uh main menu theme. I thought it was pretty damn good What do you think of their main menu theme? I loved it. Honestly, I think it was it was for a main menu. It's perfect Oh, yeah subtle enough, but it's also prominent enough to really have that like When you hear it, you can you can totally miss it the first couple times Maybe you're not paying attention. You're excited to get in the game Right, but then a couple times later you'll hear it. You'll be like, oh, okay Like I'm into this like what is this thing like I think and I think that's a great way to have it Yeah, I like the drums in the background I like the violin that kind of builds and and it makes it a little more epic I would like it to build a little faster. I think but I mean, that's just a matter of personal opinion But overall it's it's pretty damn good pretty damn good. Do you have a personal opinion man goose? I think it's the whole thing of comparing these games to paragon like how are they gonna match adrenaline like? Seriously seriously like yeah I could still listen to adrenaline and get that like vibe that feeling back. Yeah. Yeah Oh, man If they could do that, I'll be impressed hundred percent Yeah, maybe four years down the road. Everybody will be Hyped up about this song and they won't even remember adrenaline. I'm down. I know people are people Paragon players you play you I could play I could probably like go to the middle of a crowded like mall or something and start playing adrenaline It just looked to see who turns was like Like paragon player We'll just do this the old school like on a boombox Blasting adrenaline into a mall and wait for the like the love story run to happen of people coming through the mall trying to Track it down Let's me and you we're going to go down to carry north carolina the epic headquarters We're going to get our boom boxes. We'll stand out in the rain 80s style Yes Yes, man, this is happening. I'll book my ticket right now That would be great. That was so much fun Uh, then let's see that item and kit overhauls, which these kit overhauls were apparently in the last stress test Like calari's got our old guillotine Uh ultimate back which again, some people are happy about some people aren't depends on which which one you like more Like I am so excited man goose. Yeah, I was gonna say you're a calari main You're a calari player. I am oh, yeah, and her her original ultimate I loved so much more than her teleportation And I can't wait. I can't wait, man. You could do so much with this ultimate in To clear waves to push to split push to do the whole thing. I love it. It's a great damage utility Hopefully it doesn't do like 90 of someone's health in one hit like it did in paragon But yeah, I was going to say I remember that shit the one so much damage like Uh, a team would be half health in a team fight and all of a sudden calari would sweep through and get a triple kill Just I think it did like 150 Scaling or something like he's something ridiculous. I remember looking at it once it being like this is great. I love this I mean, I like button win the game. There you go I like to her monolith ultimate because it was good for split pushing Like she could be pushing a lane and then just appear in a team fight but This has way more playmaker potential and it forces you to position well and not Like just take advantage of her split pushing capabilities Yeah, and that's I think fault shows that having both is not a better option um Because giving her mobility more mobility than she already has with her double jump And then you're giving her a dash and you're giving her a teleportation ultimate like that's too much Stop like she needs to Calm down call your tits calari call your tits. Seriously Um, yeah, I'm so excited and her dagger has multiple charges as of the last stress test as well Oh that to me. I'm just sitting there like calari main going like yes Bring it back. Thank you Oh Just I don't like it. I don't like well But they have seriously nerfed her in that she can't go completely invisible She just she just gets like the predator predator shimmer Which I don't know about for a third person mode because Like in that video I talked about here's the storm you have They changed it to where instead of being completely invisible Invisibility heroes have like a slight shimmer to them And that works in an isometric because you still can't target them with basic attacks Like that's kind of the benefit of being stealth like people know where you are and they can knock you out of it but That you're you're untargetable about by basic attacks But this if you see the shimmer you can you can you can ping her with uh with murdoch so Which it's going to be interesting to see how they decide to to proceed with that in the future as well with future invisibility because The part of the thing with paragon that I will always love till the day I die Was the everybody that's invisible can see each other So anything that's invisible it goes to its own plane of existence the shadow plane, right? And so everyone can see each other and I love that concept And I'm curious if that's now removed because of how this is going to work or what the deal is there Because now if wraith's ultimate gets put in Is that going to be different than than what kalari's invisibility is and how is that going to interact from there? Yeah, and would shadow wards have this camouflage instead of just straight up stealth huh Interesting to think about I guess we'll find out in the future sometime In the last thing um that I saw was towers with uh Oh, no, they had death cam and a rejoin feature which are just standard shit that they needed No, no biggie there and towers with hit reactions better hit reactions with with towers Probably a good thing. So, you know, you're actually getting beat down by a tower Yeah, absolutely Or if they think they're going to have different hit reactions when you get hit by a tower than getting hit by a hero I I wish we got more examples of what they meant by this because It's worth it. I don't it might maybe the tower has a hit reaction like when you hit the tower It's kind of weird at the same time being a huge structure is what it is If I'm like smacking it with a kalari dagger. I don't want to see the tower go like chunk like this way like That's kind of weird. I don't know I would Say that maybe the best option is having different hit reactions when you're getting hit by a tower Because that's a real definitive way that you can say I'm getting hit by a tower versus. I'm getting hit by a person right um But to do that that isn't too subtle is probably going to be hard So I would really be really curious to see what that is if that's what they actually ended up going with So just over what's your overall reaction to all the predecessor updates jelly? I think the updates are good them in in a In a nutshell, I think the updates are good. That's good that they're giving out information again The part that falls short for me is that it took seven months to get this kind of update And for seven months this is this is a problem we had with patch 14 with fault Is there was hype over seven months and then it came out and was just kind of like That was a patch. Yeah, you know it exists And that's kind of the same vibe that i'm getting off of this is it wasn't anything revolutionary. It wasn't anything And for doing a recap, they also didn't mention the fact that grucks is going to be in the game They didn't mention that the fey is going to be in the game. They didn't mention these other bigger things Despite them recapping other things at the same time. It just is a weird feeling update to me That I wish had come sooner than seven months in I felt that they were throwing us a bone and I did not appreciate it Like give me some fucking meat, man, because this was all bone. This was no meat This was shit that I really don't care about. I want to see them give us Some sort of outline some sort of some sort of pathway to to where they're planning to be I you know, you walk a walk a thin line here of asking for too much Because you know, I don't want them to give me an alpha date and then not be able to hit it, you know Definitely, but I would still like to see some sort of build kind of like what over prime did with like we're gonna First we're going to go steam and then we're going to go to this and we're gonna do this I want to see like I would like to see that sort of path from even just yeah A very general roadmap would go a long way for pred right Right and just saying these are what we're working on. This is what's coming in the future And then pass that I mean even I can say that that's something I'm working on for a theory of Making something like that to give out to the community I think that's something that any of these companies can benefit from And it does nothing but help as long and you don't even have to give Concrete dates for any of this stuff. You can just say these are the features We're working on right now These are the features we're planning on working on and these are ones that we're looking at for a year out over a year Whatever Right be super super general, but it gives a lot of in inputs to the community and information without really Committing yourself to anything by a certain time frame. Yeah, we saw with faults when it first came out they did their season zero pass and it was Whatever it was every other month. We're gonna get two heroes And the first month we didn't get it and but they they locked themselves in they said it's going to be two heroes in the month of September whatever it was And then October 1st hits and everyone's going where's our heroes? Yeah, don't do that. Don't do that. Just say we are working on two new heroes Yeah, just Just do that kind of stuff be very general about the whole thing And I think that can go a long long way I've been rooting for omeda studios for such a long time, but I felt patronized by this update I did too. I mean I sent you a message What second I saw it on twitter I sent a message to you basically saying this is nothing Yeah, like this effectively is no information at all. It was just a we haven't said anything in seven months Let's just like you said, let's throw them a bone. Let's act like we're giving them information Yeah Yeah, nothing for console nothing for an actual alpha nothing for wins an x stress test nothing just nothing Yep, oh well Let's move on from predecessor. I hate to be all negative about it, but man, I just you had it Didn't care for this Let's move on. Let's do fault had quite a few updates here So they had their free weekend, which was has been a while back, but we haven't really talked about it yet So they had their free weekend. They had twitch drops during that free weekend That the 14 14.2 balance patch and they are they're hiring more people So just in order here. So the free weekend I don't think went as nearly as well as it could have Um, I think a lot of that like window has been saying they didn't really advertise it that well So they didn't know before it happened. Yeah Like if you look at Even stress tests even though it's not quite the same thing as a free weekend But the stress test for ethereal and the stress test for predecessor back in july were announced if basically a month ahead of time in both cases And that's that's time for your community to a hear about it and b spread the word to other people that it's happening right and Fault and we talked about this before fault that it the week prior they announced it And it was also coincidentally or not the same weekend as the ethereal stress test Which just feels weird like to to announce it that quickly and have it be on the same day as something else Feels like they were threatened to buy it in some way I think that dropped their numbers a little bit too. I really do I think because Out of the all the people that I know that I talked to like a lot Are looking forward that like they're they're willing to try fault if it went they're willing to try fault if it went free But they're mainly looking forward to ethereal So when the free weekend dropped instead of playing fault they were playing ethereal like they could have had Those numbers added in if they hadn't released it at the same time as the ethereal stress test Yeah, and I mean fault since patch 14 dropped fault did see an average increase of players to Roughly 400 a day. Mm-hmm, but even after their free weekend. They're now still steadily dropping back down to that 200 number That they've been getting I mean right now they've got 237 players active and so After a free weekend and a price drop no less you did both at the same time You're already approaching that that stagnation you were hitting before patch 14 That's a that's a bad sign like that's yeah It's a scary thing to see Despite all of that change and all of that happening. It still goes back to what it was I will say though that I have been getting much more much better games in fault Like the way fault has been with their mmr. It's either You're kicking the shit out of an enemy team or you're getting stomped yourself Mm-hmm. I've actually had some really good games since the free weekend because they have gotten more people So There's people like of my skill level and not people that are like account level 200 that play fault all day every day Then like I just can't compete with that like But you know new people coming in or people returning after a while I can actually you know hold my own against them a little bit but so I think They're They've improved Just not as much as I expected them to with a free weekend But the game itself has improved. It's still not very optimized. That was the big That was the big killer of their free weekend for people come in and The game wasn't optimized very well and there were getting a lot of framerate drops seems to depend on what sort of um Graphics card you have if you have the The 10 the 10 series um Nvidia cards seem to have more trouble than anything else From what I've been told and what I've been hearing from people But I know that I've had worse performance and I've got a 30 series But I haven't had like hard crashes or anything like I know some people have been having so Uh, but I think that's another thing mangers is they announced their free weekend knowing their optimization wasn't there And didn't have the optimization out before the free weekend And then really still don't have a lot of the optimization out now almost two weeks later That's really scared. Like why? It'd be one thing if you were pushing really hard and you were like, okay We're gonna have that optimization out on friday of the free weekend We're gonna drop a patch and the free weekend at the same time That which is cutting it close, but okay And if you missed it it didn't work out and you pushed it saturday you pushed it sunday you pushed it monday That's one thing. Yeah, it's been two weeks after your free weekend and there's still no optimization patch Why did you have a free weekend? Like if you couldn't deliver an optimization patch In a time frame that would be beneficial for that free weekend. Why have one? Hopefully it means they plan to have more free weekends in the future Now I didn't I don't have this on the um on our update sheet because it just happened last night But they had a sponsored stream last night It was some I saw that ship something. I don't even know the guy He has like 100k followers and they had he was streaming fault and it was a sponsored stream. They paid him to play fault Was a sponsored stream That's just What I was told I and I heard the same thing. I didn't get to watch it at all. Yeah um I feel like that's kind of weird, but okay again, I Your free weekend didn't prove fruitful because of optimization and other things Fix your optimization before you start getting Sponsors you start sponsoring people to play your game because if they get start playing your game And they get their communities start playing your game and it's poorly optimized. They're gonna do nothing but complain about it Yeah, if you get all those people watching a game that's dropping down to like 30 20 fps. They're not people are going to be interested in that game Um, but I mean along with all of this they're hiring more people One of which being a marketing manager, which I think they sorely need they've they've identified that they have a problem And that something just isn't working and they're they're going to try and resolve that through hiring So good on them for that Yeah, absolutely. They desperately they desperately need someone um And I saw on their list of open positions that they're looking for some kind of community Outreach face of the game Which I felt like mangoose was directly related to you and I saying that they desperately needed one Yeah, because weirdly enough we talked about it and then it suddenly showed up We talked about it on the partner panel as well So, I mean it's like it's a lot of people are talking like giving them some some suggestions for improvement it is excuse me It seems like they're actually internalizing that and moving forward and and doing some of the stuff That people are suggesting which epic never did so thank god strange matter is seriously I don't know. I think that's about all I had for fault I do want to just say that yes, I have been having more fun in fault since patch 14 not because the optimization still sucks for me, but Their biggest weakness is that player base the player base has gone up a little bit Not as much as I expected it to and that has made games more fun and fought for me. Yeah And uh, all right, so let's move on to ethereal Again, it seems like it's been like months ago Because we didn't do the show last week, but the second stress test you guys had your second stress test, which was far more, um Uh successful than your first stress test Absolutely Yeah It actually went more than two hours Yeah, we ended up going the full distance of both saturday and sunday all day Which was great to see right it shows That the servers are stable that they can be up for that long We were able to push a patch which was then effective and took place overnight right which far from what we've heard haven't had any Haven't heard anything about the patch itself aspect not working or being a problem for people Um, so that's good. That was a good test for us as well as being able to deploy patches to The people that have the game. I think overall it was just a really good stress test for us overall yeah, and Like you guys were giving away keys giving away keys giving away keys and finally we're just like, you know what fucking Everybody if you make it a make an account come play Like the servers are handling this shit come on bring it on everybody I can guarantee you that was not the conversation, but yes that that is basically What nobody said fuck it. Let's I wasn't sitting there going like you know what do it just set him out there Just be free. Everybody gets a key. Look under your seats. I got a key for you Oprah jelly I did basically like Oprah on that saturday though going out to like streams and be like here take a key Here you get a key Yeah, it was a good time that the game was really fun. It's definitely in a pre alpha state like people Somebody asked me to sum up how the game felt in one word. I was like Like I would love to say great, but it didn't feel great Yeah, like there's much that needs improved. So I just said good. It felt good, you know But I mean like there's there's a little rock outcropping as you get stuck on There's no in-game chat functionality, which is a big detriment. You know some of the Some of the targeting radicals some of the abilities don't work so well. Ron's grab is bugged out. There's it's Buggy pre alpha, you know what? I mean like I don't expect perfection out of it yet but um It felt good though I mean the above all else the game was really fun and like we were talking about an ete Like I really want to play again. Like I need to get into I need to pay attention to my discord so I can get into some of the testing The game is just really really fun Yeah, and that's You and I've talked about that a lot, right? The game is definitely in that early access state But for a second stress test to be able to go in and say that you had fun and you want to play more I think that's huge. Yeah Yeah, I think uh, you guys got a a good base Just need to make those improvements and you guys can forge get forge ahead and I think it might be big be big Then you guys did the survey for the stress test just asking everybody, you know Trying to get everybody's feedback so you know what to improve what what your uh priority should be Yeah, just trying to Get the feeling of what was too strong too weak felt strong felt weak The whole the whole nine yards basically And I think the so the big thing on that stress test questionnaire or survey was The final question of do you feel ethereal is ready for a further state of development? um, whatever whatever that be alpha pre alpha beta whatever and um, well, we're gonna go more into the the figures of that survey during the community corner on the first speaking of community corner on the first um The big thing we noticed was that people said they had a lot of fun, but they didn't feel the game was ready for that next step To of consistent release and that's why we made an announcement shortly after the stress test That's the pre alpha will not release this year as we planned because we want to Get the game to that that state or people feel it is ready to move on Instead of just forcing it to move on and telling everyone to deal with it Right. It's the game at this point. It's kind of become a it'll be ready when it's ready Kind of mentality around it. Of course, we're pushing hard to make that as quickly as possible But that's kind of the the feeling is that we want the game to be self-sustainable and stand on its own legs We don't want to have to push it along and shove it along trying to hope that it works out right and so if Despite everybody having fun. They didn't feel it was ready for that next step We felt like it was just necessary to push that that pre alpha date back into 2022 To make those improvements to make it feel like it could stand in that next state of development Well, that's uh, I mean that that sucks to hear but it's also good to hear because I would like I would hate to see you release something that Would end up getting you negative reviews, you know Yeah, and it was A hard decision, especially like for me who was coming from the community and has joined the team since It was one of those things of like this year like it needs to be this year. I'm so tired of this I'm so tired of all these things It needs to be this year but I think that the community Being on board in the majority of cases with with that that they didn't feel it was ready Help us make that decision where it was kind of a we're all coming to this conclusion together It wasn't No gameplay and us saying like by the way not gonna happen this year. Bye Uh, but that's not we're gonna do more stress tests. We're gonna do more of these things to get people Touching the game is the only way I could think of brazing that but It gets to get more people into the game Right and experience those quality of life improvements and and overall good good changes right on I think that's about all I had for ethereal unless you had anything else Yeah, yeah, just the live community corner on Saturday, January 1st, it'll be skifter and I again per usual Um, and we're gonna go over the survey talk about some new information and all that kind of stuff should be good When was that again? You said January 1st? Correct. Okay All right, and uh, so let's move on to over prime Uh, over prime actually didn't have a lot. They they've been churning out updates left and right But this time the only thing I could really found was a I really found was a new scud or murdoch skin and their abortion progress and uh To be perfectly honest. I don't I don't even like it Did you see the skin? I did Yeah, it's not for me, but I'm not a big murdoch player anyway But murdoch's one of those characters that every people buy all of his skins. So It doesn't matter if it's good or bad. Sometimes people will just buy it I'm sure they'll have cooler stuff. I've seen cooler stuff for him. Um And maybe somebody else out there. I mean, it's completely it's a completely Objective opinion. Maybe somebody else will think this is the coolest murdoch skin ever. I just personally like me Yeah, I'm with there. So I was kind of I was really expecting them from the way that they were talking to me At least that there would be something at least in december, but that doesn't look like it's happening I mean considering we've got what two days of december left By the time this comes out literally this that'll be the last day. Yeah. Yeah Watch them do it. Watch them drop the 31st. They're gonna be like we did it this year. We told you Just to make me look like an idiot Exactly. They're gonna watch this and be like drop it. Just go now. Just hit the button do the thing Yeah, so I mean I don't really mind seeing them quiet because they have pushed so many updates out so for so long now Mm-hmm, you know if they go a little quiet around the holiday season. I don't really care Somebody mentioned that they didn't even wish their community like a happy holidays or whatever. I'm like, I don't give a shit I mean we ethereal did right and I and I was the one who made the announcement But I don't think it's I don't think it's positive or negative either way, right? I don't think it's Anything to say about the company if they didn't wish people happy holidays How dare you not wish me a merry Christmas? I'll come after you in korea. Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna fly there and how dare you Yeah, I simply do not care I'll boombox adrenaline outside their headquarters Now the popularity poll now this was actually from two weeks ago. I didn't I didn't do one again I figured we'd just use this one. Uh, so it might be interesting next week to see what these numbers are, but um Fred Fred is at 58% so they're actually on the rise again Falls down to 10% ethereal at 14% over prime at 18% so, I mean I kind of it kind of um, it blows my mind how pred maintains such a high Popularity number within the community with so few updates and everything But I mean again, they they have the product they they have the product to back back themselves up Yeah, absolutely. It's one of those That you ethereal has been pretty consistently at 14% in the last couple weeks Yeah, but faults in over prime have been fluctuating a little bit And then when they fluctuate when they both fluctuate down pred always picks up the numbers right right? It's always it's always when they fluctuate when any of these fluctuate down pred picks up Whatever numbers were coming from them It seems like Which is really interesting to see because I thought over prime was gonna pull pred below 50 percent a couple weeks ago Yeah, but it hasn't happened I want to um, I should do a poll like what's your second which is what your second most looking forward to just to see Out of the other ones actually that could be a really interesting poll to see how if it fluctuates at all Yeah, I mean you're probably gonna see a lot of people still vote for the same thing. Yeah Yeah, and that's the reason I didn't do it but All right I think that's about it for the popularity poll. Let's move on to our topic for discussion, which is uh This is why I wanted to have pappy on for this for this particular one is getting the archetypes right For the mobile archetype So one archetype would be what I affectionately refer to as the fat hooker every mobile has that big fat dude That has some sort of chain or hook ability that pulls people to them Paragon, of course had Richter and pappy is a You know a great Richter player and he plays the shit out of him and I just I just want to see them all get all of these archetypes Correct like I think fault has done a pretty good job with Richter But his hook especially after the patch has been buggy as shit Like oh my god Um, so that's one archetype. What are some other archetypes you could think of jelly I think a big one is assassins And in 3d moba's assassins have been pretty consistently a problem Because they're How do you get the feel of an assassin? That isn't oppressive Yeah in a 3d moba Right in in top downs There's a lot more accessibility there to create assassins because you can do some other things In 3d moba's to get the feel of what you would call an assassin I to me Kalari Encompasses that feel the most out of any of the characters from the paragons the pair zombies Um and partly because I was a Kalari main but also in general and She has shown that balancing assassin abilities is Not impossible sometimes. Yeah Because you either are all or nothing you either are too weak So you become a bruiser Or you're too strong and you are way too strong and assassinate literally anybody doesn't matter And so it's finding that balance. It seems to be Really really difficult. So I mean that Kalari's an interesting one Because we've seen Kalari in Overprime predecessor and fault And they're they're very different between all three of them Like predecessor's approach was to make her not as invisible as she used to be um Overprimes approach was to make her a very all-in sort of assassin with her Ultimate now being like a lockdown that locks her her down for a while Which she could very easily be deleted in that But she could also 1v1 the the shit out of somebody with her ultimate um and then Predecessor or fault has gone with more of the monolith style kalari where they just kind of limit Her the range of her ultimate Depending on what your level is So I don't know which one has gotten it right Honestly, I think overprimes probably done the best job of the three In terms of a balancing and feel perspective Because they went into designing the new kalari kit from a top-down perspective In that she jumps in does a bunch of damage and then is able to go from go from there right and I think the issue with kalari as a whole was she had so much range despite being an assassin But that she had her dagger. She had her ultimate She had all of these tools that did a lot of damage From a distance Or at least could close the distance to do the damage in her in the predecessor ult now And I feel like that is problematic for a 3d moba to have a ranged assassin. Yeah Whereas overprime has made her the true melee assassin. She has to get in your face She does the damage all in a burst. She does it like it's I think it The feel is there from overprime that isn't there for the others Yeah, she's more she seems like her kit is more all in Because she doesn't have her flip Like that was my always my problem with kalari is she could get in do a shitload of damage and then just peace out Yep, there was like no consequences to her Unloading her kit on somebody she could just even if she didn't kill them. She could damage the shit out of them and then Just peace out will jump invades and you're free Where's literally nothing you can do about that with overprime It's kind of it's more of a chimera style where you if you get in there you better finish that target or you're fucked I kind of like that. Yeah, I do too I it's I mean, we'll see. Let's wait. I should get the play over problem. Maybe I'm getting Shit on by kalari's and I'm like, no this sucks. But you know, we'll see Uh, I think one of those things of like It's not it's one of those like not my kalari moments where I'm like, no, that's not kalari to me That that is cocky or whatever her name is Um, well, yeah, but I think they did a good job in redesigning the kits that fits the character theme still But also fits that archetype really well, right? And what we're saying like with papi is um solely you've actually reached out to papi knowing that he was such a huge Uh ricketer player like he had over a thousand games of paragon. He has over a thousand games in fault They reached out to him like hey, how should we Go about designing ricketer, which I think is a great idea to ask somebody like that And and papi didn't like say like I'll make him super overpowered. Well papi said was Make him strong enough to be able to be viable in the jungle off-leaning support But not so strong that he's overwhelming in in any of those And um I think that would be perfect for ricketer. I don't think because right now in fault. He is the best off-leanor By far by far And if his hook was more consistent, it would be even worse. Oh god. Yeah Yeah, I oh my god. I had some games last night where I was You throw the hook you get the marker you get the sound effect and it doesn't do shit and you're just like what the hell man Mm-hmm It just feels bad. It just feels so bad Because it's such a hard ability to land. So when you actually land it you want it to to do something and they're saying a lot of it is um Actually, I think you were talking about this that you think it's client side Where it it yeah, it favors the person getting hit over the person Throwing the ability. Yeah, which is why you get I've done more testing since bots have come out in that regard of testing the prediction and where where it lies And it definitely feels like it is Favoring the person getting hits not the person doing the hitting Because even occasionally you'll hit you'll hit a minion get the damage flash get damage numbers But you their health bar doesn't go down So if on the server side the minion is not getting hit by whatever your attack is it doesn't matter Right. It tells you nope. You're not doing anything even if it's showing you They on your screen that you are doing damage. You are getting the hit which At bare minimum needs to be improved that if the server is saying it doesn't hit it doesn't give you hit It doesn't give you hit markers Unless you've got insane lag because then that's just your own fault. Yeah People with good internet should not be getting hit markers When when the server is saying that something did not hit. Yeah Oh Well back to assassins ethereal, of course, you guys aren't going to have kalari. So we can't compare kalari What you guys have is the reaper class, which is for for now is just malaya and it seems The reaper class itself is not necessarily assassins because like malaya is While she has some burst capability. She's more of a melee attack like bruiser-esque kind of character but xl Is likely to be the first Assassin character from everything we've seen right it. He just fits the bill for an assassin character and so there's Getting that vibe correct is going to be the same problem That kalari has or whoever any other assassins in the 3d mobas is making sure he feels Impactful but not broken. Yeah Well, I like the way malaya has been done because she's not a burst assassin She just has a shitload of things in her kit that allows outplay Like she has the potential Because I think when I think of an assassin, I think of someone who who could dominate a 1v1 That's what I think a moba assassin should be maybe not great in a teamfight But 1v1 you're not going to take them on and malaya kind of embodies that because she has so much outplay She can dash past abilities. She can immune abilities with her shield. She has Even if when you think she's dead, she has her ultimate that prevents her from dying for three seconds It gives her a bunch of lifesteal. She has lifesteal baked in I really like that Approach to an assassin because it doesn't feel nearly as overbearing as just All of a sudden you're dead You feel like you You got killed because you got outplayed not because somebody built better than you Even she definitely thrives in the 1v1s But in team fights she can get in and basically kill one target And either get out or will die right which is what assassins are going to do most often In that they're they're going to get in they're going to deal their damage to one person two people whatever their ability set is and then they're either going to die or they're going to need to get the heck out of dodge and They even getting out for the assassins is a task in and of itself most of the time if you have an ability You have to hold it to get out You can't just blow your entire kit and then expect to walk out no problem And I feel like that's calari's problem is that she can go in Deal all the version all of her damage and then has a consistent way to get out at the same time Then she waits for her cooldowns to come up rinse and repeat rinse and repeat rinse and repeat And that that is wholly unhealthy for an assassin in these type of games Yeah An archetype that I think is missing from all the all the games right now um is the rat archetype I mean the rat being um Kind of that was coined by by dota You had the rat character that was just really good at sieging and pushing a lane and then getting away before anybody can do a Thing about it Paragon it was wukong wukong was a fucking problem, but So i'm not saying i'm not saying that I'm not saying i want to see a rat in it in any of these games, but usually you see that in moba some sort of Very very strong, but you know solo pushing a lane But not so great in team fights But they can win the game by themselves if if the if your team plays well around that I haven't seen that in any of the games yet I think part of it is in a 3d moba You can almost have that with every character Depending on their kit to be sure yeah, right not to the level of wukong wukong took that to a whole other extent right, but Almost any character because of the way the map is set up because of the way rotations work can become that kind of split pushing monster Assuming their kit permits. Yeah, the big one that I can think of or ethereal is talos talos's right click. Yeah is a basic attack reset And he can get slightly faster basic attacks and finagle that when he uses his abilities and all of that To win combo'd correctly He can really shred through towers really quickly But his kit isn't her inherently designed to shred towers by the same token So it's that like give and take that you can find in a lot of these characters He has that ability to never have to back Because he has stamina instead of mana. He's never gonna run out of mana. He could just Keep pushing waves down. So yeah, yeah, I guess he could be um gravestone comes to mind for me, um, I think um Wait, does predecessor have gravestone? They don't do that. No, not yet. Okay But I mean I'm out though and predecessor is very similar in that regard of pushing style But I always said that gravestone was the original wukong in paragon because he would 100 he would split push the Dog shit out of elaine and win games by himself Then wukong came along and just did it better Because he had to salt the gates so he could jump out of there if he needed to and he had his ultimate so There was very little threat to him Right despite Being able to do all that split pushing. Yeah. Yeah, exactly That's kind of the hallmark of rat is having some sort of easy escape I mean nobody could ever escape like wukong could but Maybe kalari kalari. Yeah, just kalari just didn't have the um The potential to clear lanes as fast as gravestone or wukong Once they got rid of her original ultimate, she couldn't clear waves for the dam and that was I think that was What made me stop playing kalari actually was the change in her ultimate because I was just like this doesn't You had so much split push potential to help your team be more beneficial Than just generic assassin Yeah, uh with that old ultimate and the new one did not have that Okay Well, here's an archetype that I think has not been done great Is uh, you almost always have some sort of support that links to their target and buffs them through that link Paragon it was phase and uh Um over prime has synthia or I think that is what they're calling phase And then uh phase is now in fault. I do not think fault has implemented her great She is just so fucking annoying. I mean she was annoying at paragon, but The ability to just swap your link over to an enemy and then stun them with it I thought it was going to be a good thing. I thought it would just give her more More options for being effective But she's already got a slow with her e. She already has her blind, which is super fucking effective You can't give her a stun on top of that it's too universal Right in a lot when when phase was coming out some of the ethereal devs who never played paragon We were all talking about it about like how we would change phase to be better because she was problematic in paragon too, right? Once phase came out you basically always played phase like there was just There were very few supports that were better than her And that's because she can play safe She's got long range abilities and she can pull her ally out whenever she wants, right? Like there's there's so little downside to playing phase And then you fault gave her the ability to be offensive on top of it No, like please please do not we don't need that um What some of them we're talking about though is that her link needs to be her ultimate And you need to shift that away from just an ability that is on a short cooldown It needs to be a consistent long cooldown long form ability And then have it have it be that that you can pull allies to safety, but it's on a two a two minute cooldown You can link to an enemy and use the blind and do all those things, but it's on a two minute cooldown Yeah, you need to make her have a more defined weakness Then she has and so far none of the 3d mobas have done that so I mean you see I think it's aphrodite in smite that has the link You see it in mobas all the time. You see some sort of Hero that can link but the link is never nearly as effective of a tool as it is with phase It's usually just some way of buffing an ally or transferring something to them and Oh with phase just being able to pull all the time. I do like the idea I like the idea of the actual pole being The ultimate ability Like just a stupid long cooldown. So you have to use it effectively But I do but having the link to give Health a mana regen. I think that's cool. I think that's a nice ability to have it I think I think you make the ultimate just that that pulling aspect For instance, there's a character in lead called Kalista. She is a carry Um, but her passive is that she links to her support And they're linked the entire game. They gain benefits by being nearby each other And then Kalista's ultimate is that she pulls her support to her and the support can go out and knock up an area Okay, and that's another effective use of a tether It does not Make the game broken you get the benefits of being tethered to each other all game But the the really big strong part of the tether is on the ultimate that gives it that longer cooldown Yeah, I don't know. I hate phase. I always have always I Phase being implemented was bold like I We give crap for wukong, right that whenever whoever implements wukong is going to have a hard time I Think wukong honestly is probably a better choice to implement than phase in a lot of these games I know i'm going to hear about this Because I think wukong Is more balanceable than the idea of a tether on a basic ability Yeah I mean, we haven't seen much of her from over prime. I certainly haven't played her In over prime, but she looks pretty much the same way she was in Paragon, which is a pain in the ass. Mm-hmm. Absolutely Can you think of any other archetypes that we uh, I think one that paragon I guess did really well Is long range cc in a 3d moba? um that Their long range cc was almost always a skill shot of some kind And it was insanely hard to hit in the majority of cases But those that got really good at hitting it. It was really a really effective tool at the same time And I think that's an archetype that paragon really set up well for the 3d moba space, right? um decker ball rampage rock um I can't think of Say again thunk thunk. Yeah nabash. That was that's the character's name. Um I think are all really solid abilities That helped fit their archetype of giving that that long range cc out without it being oppressive at the same time. Yeah Um, I guess that's another reason why I hate phase and fault is that it's a lock-on stun The only one that you don't have to have any skill whatsoever. You can't dodge it You just got to try and outrange it once it's on you which is a terrible feeling because Very few characters in the duo lane have mobility Yeah, and let alone enough mobility to get out of that tether range Especially if you're getting energy lance slowing you down. Yeah No, it's it's a free combo for her in that she tethers to you energy lance and congrats. You're stunned like that It's just that easy. Yeah Uh, that's bullshit. But yeah, you you bring up a good point. They yeah the the long range cc In paragon that they really did do it, right? Especially with rampage because that I loved rampages rock because that thing Could be hit from anywhere. Yeah, absolutely And it was one of those things if you could do it well It was really effective if you did it poorly you were practically useless to your team Yeah, right and that was I think a great thing for paragon and what I think made paragon shine in so many people's eyes, right landing decker balls off of walls Landing a rampage rock over like an insane amount of distance, right? Really cool feeling things that I think really lent itself to Why people love the game so much in a lot of aspects um in in rampages stun Kind of had that integrated balance to it that he had to pull the rock out of the ground before he could throw the stun Like you had to go through that entire animation. So people could tell When he was about to try and chuck that rock at you Yeah, so I thought that was really cool The stun increased based on distance So it encouraged rampages to throw longer distance rocks Then just pick it up in your face and chuck it at you point blank Right, and I I didn't know it did that very very minimally It was I think it was like a half a second increase over an insane distance um But it like I said, I encouraged that bigger flashier type playmaking style That helped your team But also was a really good long range cc at the same time if you got the angle you knew how to do it Yeah, um, and it's huge and that's something Grognark in ethereal is that first long range cc for the game marina's right click is Long ish it's it's slightly shorter than an arbash thunk in my mind. Um, but A grognark rock being being basically a rampage rock Is going to change the game because of that huge range of cc being pliable to more people I'm just a little afraid you guys might have a little too much cc It's entirely possible Is there diminishing returns in ethereal? Yes, absolutely. Okay good because yeah getting aron grabbed into a double tallow stun into a Noxus root into being charmed They're dead by then but yeah part of that also though lends itself to why long range cc is important because For any of the ccs right now you basically have to be on top of them Lia's may be technically as long range cc, but she has to get into the fight It's just is castable at a long range. Yeah um But being able to if aron goes in and grabs have grognark stand back and just throw a rock and stun him out of it Can help your team in that regard as well and help them move that pace forward Yeah, so having a more long range ccs Kind of counterbalances the short range cc of the game at the same time Well, I can't really think of any other archetypes to really talk about. Um Jelly, do you got any more? I think One that has always been problematic in any moba but especially 3d mobas is Kind of the aerial area of denial type characters Oh, yeah more to icky and scorch being being the prime example of lacing down their turrets You don't go near the turrets that you're you're denying that zone To enemies unless they want to take damage and it's always been problematic Yeah Um and that's in every moba right even league of legends has a character that drops down turrets And he's either broken or useless Iggy and scorch were always broken or useless right there. There was always that Problem of how do you balance someone that can spawn? Extra damage dealing things. Yeah Yeah, it's hard us um Here's the storm has gazelo that lays down His turrets the way they have that balance though is they you know Here's storm has all kinds of different maps and gazelo, of course excels on maps where you have a very definitive objective that needs to be taken He can get there early start throwing turrets all over the damn place and then enemy team has to fight under his turrets So he's really strong in that aspect, but any other map where you don't have that He's kind of useless Yeah, yeah, they're really good at objectives and that's about it. Yeah I mean that eggy was one hell of a split pusher in legacy paragon Everybody built the tank eggy And that's because the the issue with the turrets becomes Can you kill them in one hit if you're an enemy? Do you get gold for that kill? Yeah, you get xp for that kill. What like how? balancing all the aspects around extra entities But especially static turrets like that is really difficult. Yeah Uh paragon they switched it to pips like it had to take three pips of damage didn't matter how big the damage was so like um abilities like like the fey with her flower that would you know Deal really quick damage. It was really good at just clearing out his Turrets, but again, is that much mana worth taking out a turret? Same exactly same with gadgets seek a destroy because it dealt Small ticks of damage is is is it worth it? Sometimes it is Yeah, and it's finding that balance between the turrets and and other characters and the turret character themselves It just proves problematic consistently. I guess we'll see once Iggy comes into one of these games. He's been kind of hinted at for fault Mm-hmm We've seen some skins for him and some stuff for an overprime, but that's the only two that we've seen so far um If you guys out there if you guys have any arc types that That you can think of that you want to you want to discuss let you know, let us know in the comments below We'll we'll talk it out talk about them Um other than that. I think that's all I got jelly. You got anything else? No, that's it for me too. Cool beans. Well, uh, that's gonna wrap it up for this week Um, sorry, just the two of us again if you want to be on the show hit me up um The only real requirement is that you have discord because we recorded the show on discord But you don't have to have a face cam. You can just give me a picture Almost anything and I'll put that up there for your for your profile pic Um, I think this screenshot man goose right now And send that to him as your profile picture that you want for you for the minions. It'll be perfect Let me see who's let me see who's who we got next Windu we're gonna have windu next. Okay, so I've got the perfect profile picture for him now. He'll have he'll have a He'll have a camera Oh my god Yeah, uh, I think let's go close it out. Um jelly. You got anything to plug Uh, just my twitch twitch.tv slash jelly knees do marvellous monday every monday at 8 p.m. mountain time And yeah, it's a good time even when man goose doesn't show up. Sorry. I forgot. He's fault instead. It's fine And jelly's on youtube too, so I'll have his both his twitch and youtube posted below so you can join in on marvellous mondays both ways Yeah, what about you man goose? I got nothing i'm gonna keep filling the uh Videos from the ethereal stress test. I think that's about all I got playing for real Hopefully we get something big coming out so I can start playing some more of these games Yeah, I agree that's gonna wrap it up for this week folks. Thanks for coming out if you're watching this During the premiere or if you're watching this as the video then still appreciate it And again leave some comments down there any your thoughts on any of the updates and your thoughts on uh On the arc types of the various games and how they've been implemented But for now, that's uh, that's gonna be it for this week. You guys have a good one man goose Special shout out to channel members foolish blood hunter jelly needs me. I'll mix for men stunt ferrith and raven