 Hello and welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today is a very very very special episode because we are talking about a Lost drum kit of Jean Krupa that has been found and restored and is back in the world So today we have two special guests first our old friend of the podcast who's been on many times Maybe maybe one of the most Returning guests of the show mr. Brooks Tagler Brooks welcome back on Glad to be here Yes, and then we are also joined by Steve who is the Owner of this drum set who wanted at an auction Steve welcome to the podcast Hi, nice to meet you. This is groundbreaking stuff because this is this has been announced to the world before on some as Brooks said like the Jean Krupa like Facebook page and stuff, but Really, this is kind of the big announcement to the world. So without further ado Steve, let's start with you and jump in here and just tell us the story of How did this all happen, you know, how did you find out about it? How did you acquire this rare? Jean Krupa full drum set Yeah, so it was somebody posted on the vintage drum forum That there was an auction going on that had a a couple Kits of Significance one being a you know a support a supposed Jean Krupa drum kit And it was another drum set that appeared to be a Ed Shaughnessy kid and it was just really kind of strange because You know, these are two various well-known drummers The rest of the auction was a few other drum sets Nothing of any significance and then a bunch of lawn art That and then personal, you know household effects posters pictures kitchen items just your kind of average Stuff, yeah, the drums weren't really advertised at first. They were listed as drum set with GK on it And then the Ed Shaughnessy had you know says yes on it and then over time After a few days, like I don't know people reached out to them or whatever but they started updating the descriptions and then they Made the you know, they stated Jean Krupa and Ed Shaughnessy, but they never at any time said this belonged to They were you know, just very matter-of-fact This what they say on them But we're you know, they weren't trying to say this was Jean's drum set because they hadn't authenticated just to kind of throw You said supposed which that does happen which we'll hear more from Brooks here about that. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, and they You know, this was not a an auction house that dealt with vintage drums. They were Just a standard place that liquidates in a state. So they did the best they could and At first I thought oh man, this thing might go for next to nothing Because it's so under the radar here. They're not you know It's not being you know, it's not on some, you know, huge oxygen slide or anything like that It's just it's just a beat-up old drum set. Yeah as Time went on is like well, I guess that's not really gonna happen, but It seems so like you know, it's probably still gonna be under the radar enough that I might be able to actually afford this so You know, I watched it every day at first the first pictures are like cell phone pictures You know, it looked like just a white drum set with the GK head on the front It's like I don't remember Jean ever playing just a plain white kit Then they posted a few new pictures That were a little clearer and by then you could see it was actually white, you know white marine pearl Yeah, and by then I'd already been digging around like this thing has some weird Features on at first that head That slingerland arch At the top was not Something they ever, you know produced for the public so only a handful of drummers You know ever had a head with that on there Sometime, you know Brooks can speak more to the the timeline, but it was sometime in the you know later part of the 50s and into the early 60s that you know some of the slingerland's well-known artists Had this type of head on there. So sure, you know, it's like that stands out But you know people can make reproductions, you know things like that happen all the time Another detail about it is the spurs Instead of being mounted on the front they're mounted on the back of the base and they're a that's a style that Actually WFL and I guess maybe maybe once Ludwig bought the name back. They were using it Yeah Before they came out with the modern diecast parts that we all know and love but so it's like that's an unusual detail And then so I as I'm looking around on the internet You know, I'm seeing pictures. It looks like this set, you know the headmatch is The spurs are in the right place It's got the same little old-fashioned bent steel tom bracket or a tom leg bracket So it's like all these details are matching up. So it's like this might actually be this set Yeah, well in the if it wasn't it could very easily be a Period correct drum set of a gene krupa enthusiast which there's nothing wrong with that They would they would paint their own head, but real quick. I want to ask are these photos that we're looking at of The drum set in the yard are those the ones that you saw on the posting? Yep, okay The ones that everyone saw in the posting, okay The worst the worst the pictures are the earlier they are got it because to explain for people who are just listening and not on YouTube I mean, we're looking at like just like it's a pile of drums with busted heads in the yard amongst a bunch of other stuff Missing heads busted heads. It's got the gk Badge with the two lines in the badge that we all know and as Steve said Slingerland clearly hand-painted across the top in a bit of an arch and a really worn head. So I Mean if you weren't looking close you would just scroll right past this I mean it could be on an you know Facebook marketplace or Craigslist and just look like I mean We would look at it because we're drummers, but it just looks like Any old drum set it's interesting right and anybody, you know this young it's they're not who's gk So yeah, you know, it's just very under the radar So so the more I look then I start seeing these pictures and another detail I'm looking for which I can't really see very well in these pictures was on That rack Tom that 13 inch Tom. There's two two Soundking lugs that have been replaced by snare lugs because it's a bolt-on same whole spacing all that kind of stuff Like well, that's really an odd detail. You're not going to see that So finally they posted enough updated pictures and it's like there they are There's a and it's like but then again still these are all things somebody could have done themselves in their basement or Whatever just as a tribute kid or whatever. Yeah You know, there are some people that obviously have nefarious intent to try to sell things as the real item, but You know, so you always have to Treat that stuff with suspicion. Okay. Here's my checklist. These things are all lining up. I'm not finding any old pictures that Don't match these details But the proof and the pudding is looking at the wrap. Yeah, because white marine pearl is It's like a fingerprint You know no two Drums are going to have the exact same pattern on because the way white marine pearl is made It's made in a block all these different colors Textures of the plastic that it's made out of are kind of woven together and twisted together And then solidified as a block and then they slice a thin layer off They laminate a white backing on it or a colored backing if it's black marine pearl It might have a black back. Yeah, white marine pearls kind of white bag and then they laminate a clear Laminate on top so it's a sandwich Every time you slice that it's going to be different So I mean and then on top of that even if you did two slices and they were close Which are not they're still going to be quite different But even if they were close the chances of two identical drum sets being built With taking sequential numbered Wrap off the stack. Yeah cutting an exact same place for the same exact size drums and one is played by Gene Krupa Right, you know and not to mention that floor tom is a 20 by 20 Yeah, which not exactly Something you see every day. So, you know, so that's really the without any provenance So to speak the rap is really going to be the proof. So There was enough pictures posted towards the end that I I got a good enough feeling That this was actually the kit man really that that set So I you know, I had already talked to my wife about, you know, what I was thinking of doing and She didn't talk me off the ledge or anything and we discussed, you know money and all that stuff and so I had to go ahead and waited till the last minute and and bit on it and as I when I hit the bid button, I'm like, oh man, what have I done? Because you know, I haven't seen it in person. I haven't seen Really great shots of the rap. I've seen enough pattern. Yeah matches in there that I'm pretty sure But you know till you see it and really know for a fact, it's like, you know, yeah, so it's like, oh man It's like, oh, well, I'm not gonna win this anyway. Somebody's gonna swoop in it last minute. Well, I Turned out I want it. So Man, you must have been I mean what this is a weird question But like was this midnight that there was over or was it like noon? Was it the middle of the night? You know It was in the evening. Okay. Yeah, okay That's good because sometimes they end at weird times depending on where you are But you had to just be were you pump? Were you thrilled? I mean you had to be pumped when you won this thing or maybe a little scared It was a little both. Yeah, it was like I went in the bedroom and said I wanted and she's like really Wow, so, you know, but then it was like that all that doubt is like God man What if I get up there and this thing is not it? This is some fake or or just the tribute kit and Or what if it's you know, it's clearly had been not stored very well water damage and stuff So what if I get up there and this whole thing's just fallen apart and it's you know Not playable or not even you know worth anything So, you know, it's like well I've done it now. I don't have any choice. You bought it. Yeah, so my son and I hopped in the car the next morning and You know, that was another thing I figured out. Okay. This is this is kind of at the limit of what can be driven Yeah in one wake cycle with some adrenaline and some coffee so we hopped in the car and Headed up on up there You know, it was dark when we left it was really dark when we got back so it was a long day But you know the whole way there. It's like, oh god, what have I done? Oh, this is gonna be awesome. What have I done? It's gonna be awesome So we get there and you know, I had already Apparently a lot of people had already found this house online Before and and I did too. I had already researched there was one picture on the auction site that had the street number on the front of the house and The little town where it was in is very small. I was like, well, hey, let's go on Google Maps and see if I can find it Yeah And when I found it on Google Maps It was no doubt because on the auction listing was all this lawn art this house was a little local Landmark this gentleman had a huge collection of You know, there was a I don't know a 10-foot sauce Squatch and a bear Cool a big pilot fish and I mean just all kinds of things and he would The whole front of his house was covered with this stuff and then when you go back behind it There was even more back there and he would rotate it out So, you know this house was well known for that. It wasn't known For what lurked inside as far as this guy's drum collect. Yeah. Yeah, so So when I got there I kind of felt like I'd already been there because I had driven it on street view so I go around back and You know, there's this garage in the back and there's all the everything all the drums are in there and You know, it's just your average, you know, not finished off garage quite dirty and everything and There's gentlemen there picking up the edge Shaughnessy kit We spoke a little bit. He offered to buy the set from me He was one of the other three and it was me Brooks and this other gentlemen were kind of hitting the bid Button at the last minute and yeah So he he said he had some Jean Krupa stuff and any and you know so anyways, we had a nice little chat and I Looked at the Shaughnessy set and it looked legit So I had the heads on the front of the bass drums and you know, he had apparently two or three kits stored You know geographic different areas. So they're not to ship them across country. So this is one of his backup kits. So So, you know, I walk into the garage or he says there's your stuff over there and I look and there's in the corner sitting on the floor like sitting on some cardboard is This kit along with there's another another drum set and included in some odds and ends. Just it was a lot There was a remote drum set and some just Miscellaneous stuff. So I didn't buy it for that and buy it for this set. You didn't buy this for the Remo No, did not so You know, I kind of look over there and it's just you know sitting over there and It's like man, I hope that, you know, I don't know where this thing's been stored, you know, knowing that it's had some water damage, but So I went over and kind of looked it over. It's like, you know, I Mean it looks Looks legit, but then you know, I looked at certain I looked at the strainer on the snare drum and The chrome looked really good in the dark there and I was like it looked a little too good No, it's like, you know, it's just like that down your skeptical It's like you can't let yourself be too excited because you could the disappointment could be Financially and emotionally not good. Yeah, sure. So, you know, I looked it over like let's look in the bass drum because You know in the pictures I could tell that the front bass drum head had gotten wet There's like a lot of molds Staining on it. It looks all wrinkly the scarf joint is busted on the front hoop So clearly it was, you know sitting face down somewhere where it got in in some water Yep, so I knew there was some you know damage related to that. It's like I bet that front re-ring is Half off or all the way off stuck my head in the bass drum and sure enough. It's just you know floating in midair Yeah, but it Nothing looked like it was irreparably damaged It was all the correct sizes Everything, you know, I didn't see any details that didn't match what I was expecting But you know still like man until I get this thing home and start literally looking at the wrap I'm not gonna know and I'm not I don't have time to do that here. Yeah, and And you already bought there's no going back at that point. So yeah Yeah, at this point, you know, I'm not gonna I can't get my money. So yeah I've either got jeans kit or I've got a fairly nice Proper, you know, 54 55 Slinger lens set. Yeah, and some miscellaneous stuff I maybe could sell it all and get you know, most of my money back, but you know sure it is what it is so bagged it all up wrapped it all in plastic throw it in the Carefully threw it in the vehicle and you know head on back Home and then the whole way back same thing. What have I done? This, you know This is awesome. What have I done? So I Got home unloaded the vehicle We were actually planning on going out of town the next day. So I Unloaded stowed it all away and and didn't unpack it like I don't want to know yet. I Want to take some time here and just Not think about it. Yeah, spent a week on vacation came back and then started digging into it Took the 13 inch out Took it outside and because these things were musty and dirty there was White stuff growing on all the calf skin heads and sure, you know, so So I start looking and start looking at pictures like yeah, I'm seeing details here that you know I'm seeing matches here, but so In the meantime, I had reached out to you seeing if I could get in touch with Brooks because I've listened to you know, all the the GK Podcast y'all have done. Yeah, I knew Brooks was you know, he's the man But I will say that my when I get that of course even you're saying you had doubt my getting that email was like So you emailed me saying can I get Brooks's info? I think I have a drum set that I need to get authenticated my in my mind I'm thinking there's no way you know what? I mean, of course, it's it's so rare that it would actually be a Real deal drum set. I was like, but of course I was like, you know, I don't think Brooks would mind He enjoys this stuff, but he's Brooks as he can say when we get to that part is he's seen a lot of fakes so I was When this ended up being that like, oh no, this is real. I couldn't believe it that you know It all worked out. But anyway, yeah, so you you got my you got the info from me about Brooks and yeah So I reached out to Brooks and So I start, you know, we start a conversation and I start sending them pictures and You know, he you know, he he told me that he had been bidding on it too and You know, it's like oh, wow Sorry and So You know, I Start taking, you know, send him as many pictures because I want, you know, he's documented all this stuff He was involved with that the big 2018 find and you know, I want him to have as much documentation of this set as possible and So I start trying to get pictures to send to him And it was like I just not capturing it on you know Just not capturing I can see it in person but to actually capture it where somebody can Oh, yeah, that's a match So I played around with it using my phone using different lights everything Finally, I just kind of said well I guess I need what I need to do is I need to duplicate as close as I can The position that the original camera was in and where the flash was And where the angle of the drone Yeah, because to explain a little bit, I think Brooks will attest to this more Authenticating stuff like this is usually comparing an original photo of gene playing the drums to You know lineup markings white marine pearl Fingerprint as you said There's a you know, this lug is missing here. It's it's marking that that's typically the way to authenticate these things, right? Yeah, absolutely, especially if it's marine pearl Yeah, technically it's marine pearl white the word white was added much later. Gotcha. Okay. I stand corrected but but yeah, I mean I used the The very first time I used the fingerprint method was in Uh 19 go brother 94 I guess Uh to actually prove that a drum was not A croupe a drum it was easier because there were good pictures of You know present and shots of That particular snare from gene Yeah um And yeah, it's unmistakable the whole the whole idea that each one is going to be unique Because of the pattern of the pearl sure Um Is a perfect way if you can biggest problem i'm still working on that for a six and a half inch snare that I have now Finding decent photographs The older it gets Yeah, that's a problem. I've got right here in front of me I've got eight pictures of gene playing one of his six and a half inch snares None of the pictures show the marine pearl Clearly enough that I can make a comparison To the one that's sitting in my bedroom floor That I'm hoping and against hope actually was one of genes Yeah, so you know that's and I've been I've been looking at that now for over a year and a half So yeah, but the fingerprint thing is essential. Absolutely. Okay. Okay, so Steve you're you're then your method now is Angling things I mean I mentioned it before with one of my other conversations with brooks about this is like some like Court documents stuff. I mean you're trying to get like very and you have this book and everything but Uh, so how'd that process go? Well, so after I kind of figured out The best way to capture it um And also I put the the camera on a tripod because I was trying with my you know It's like too many balls too many variables here. So I got it on tripod Like okay, this looks as close as I can to you know and uh And then I remembered I had an old kodak Uh halogen light that would have gone on a brownie. Sure. Uh eight millimeter camera Smart. So, you know proper vintage. Um So, uh, you know, I'm like Looking through the camera and and then also I thought these pictures are not perfectly clear It's originals. Yeah, so try to get it as close to out the same amount of out of focus as possible smart So I start just clicking away Holding the light, you know kind of seeing if I can see it and Then I go up and I pull the sd card out and I put it in my Computer and I start looking and I've got some of those white the the color pictures um That uh, there's like, you know eight of them or whatever that brooks Provided you and I had some some copies as well, which have really good clear They're slightly blurry, but really good pictures. So just to see what we have here you did the uh snare drum with a really nice angle very matching From universal studios 1955 to match you've got the floor tom the giant floor tom, which was uh basin street east new york city 1950 something which Looks like a very accurate match The the oslo norway bass drum picture. It's cool to see this because you see the line of where the wrap Meets which I'm sure that's not the biggest dead giveaway, but that's certainly Although I have used that as well. I use that as a marker of authenticity. Definitely. Yeah, it's uh, it's a checklist It's you know everything I'm looking at here the right because when I could even see that In the pictures on the auction site The wrap seam is in the right place. Yeah, because you can kind of You know with your visually measure between the distance from lugs And no kind of what neighborhood you're in and then you've got tom which was used in the benny goodman story, which We're gonna get to this I think with with brooks But when I started seeing the photos of what this drum set has been featured in Where it's been performed what the book covers and things it's like This is not some like, you know, he bought it in 1972 and he died the next year kind of thing. It's like Oh, no, this is The real deal uh drum set. So anyway, yeah Very cool. You did a great job authenticating. So then after that what happened? I mean at that point I was at least the stress of Okay, I didn't blow a bunch of money on uh on this on this stuff here um So, you know, I just Each, you know For about a week there. I was taking another drum out of out of wrapping And cleaning and looking, you know checking condition and looking, you know checking details um You know and overall It's in surprisingly good shape um You know, I mean this thing has been All over the world I mean it was all over the u.s It was, you know, and Lots of parts of europe. Yep Norway, I mean he toured he he must have just gotten it or it only had it for a month or so He in the trio went to australia And went, you know, did a tour for I don't know it was about a week or two or something So, I mean it's been all over Um, and it probably spent its life In a set of fiber cases You know, nothing fancy like we have today with you know padding and you know all this stuff, you know These were tools. These weren't collectibles. These were tools and So they spent a lot of time rattling around and um in fiber cases Uh being set up and torn down by You know various people um Not necessarily all drummers or whatever. I mean just you know, yeah, yeah So it you know, it's it's Held up remarkably well that the wraps in really good shape. There's a few little Blitz along some of the seams Due to the moisture that it's sustained But most of the die cast parts are still in decent shape. The chrome is still pretty nice The claws and and tees Um, this is a better part of those are made out of steel Chrome plate thing is a good rust representative, but it doesn't You know, it's not a hundred percent and you six something in a damp basement Especially if there's some sort of flood Yeah, you know, so there's a lot of surface rust and and just flat out rust on the claws And the tees the handles are made out of brass on those old school ones There's wear on the center part of the The barrel because they're like balls on the end and a little cylindrical flat spot metal Uh brooks referred to these this is barrel handles barrel center barrel center handles there's You see raw brass on the tips sure, uh, and they're kind of spindly From where they tighten against the claw It's about maybe three eighths of an inch just continuing tension rod We all know what the the diameter of a tension rod is and then that fits into the t-handle Those things a lot of them are bent Uh, a little bit not terribly, but it's like, you know, these these things have been all over the world And it's it's fun. I'm assuming I'm going back to 1955. Let's call it's round down or up here a little bit The drum sets basically are about 70 years old now, right at that, you know, ish, so Right, let's give her a break. Yeah, and we don't know, you know, we don't have the history How it came into this gentleman's possession. So that was a question is how did he get this? How did he get it showing us these drums? He's just a collector, I guess and there's there's a thread on vintage drum form and a lot of people were offering opinions and thoughts and everything and Somebody brought up the guy's name because there was apparently an article Because of the whole lawn art thing there was a news. There's a video People talking about how they were sad to see all these Lawn art go because it's been there for so long and yeah in a landmark and all that that name was out there So somebody posted all that And then another well-known collector You know very well known in the community posted that he had known this guy about 10 or 15 years ago and that his stuff was usually legit and Really he collected really nice stuff And he said, you know whoever got it scored. Yeah Just based on that so You know, we don't know anything other than that. Yeah. Yeah, and the way you say it's to get that Kind of backing from someone means that if it wasn't authentic, it would mean that he didn't do that on purpose He wasn't selling some fake drum set. It's it's more right. He thought it was real too Right. So yeah, I mean this guy Apparently had some really nice stuff according to this other collector at you know at one time So, you know, this was not You know some completely random person, although um Not well known Sure, but uh, you know, so how he came to possess this set The Shaughnessy set is a little less of a mystery because that's a lot newer set It's a modular era Ludwig. So, you know, that's not 70 years ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah but uh So when I got there, I uh, I asked the the the guys, uh, he's still alive and he's actually in a nursing home Um, which is why they were liquidating as a state and I spoke to his sister and I said, so how did How did he come to? Uh, you know to own this these two sets Um, and she said well, he you know, he collected he bought Uh from a couple dealers. He said one was california and I can't remember what the other one I was thinking Ohio, but then when Brooks and I were talking He just he he mentioned a guy, uh, very well known vintage dealer that was in Connecticut, right Brooks? Yeah Charlie Donnelly Yeah, charlie donnelly who is no longer with us. Unfortunately Uh, so it's like maybe she said Connecticut. I I don't remember. I was Yeah, I was very tired. It's just driven a long time and was uh, Yeah, uh, yeah, so, you know It's interesting seems to be You know, probably maybe a pretty likely scenario, but yeah one way the other he acquired this set um along with a lot of other stuff over the years and then uh It just seemed you know, I don't know seems like the maybe the collection kind of got away from him That happens. I mean, this is some Smithsonian level stuff but also it sounds like he had a lot of Stuff that maybe you kind of forget what you have and you forget that it's in the basement and Geez And the thing is, uh, you know, like I said in the pictures in the auction pictures I knew there was water damage There was a picture or two where you could see in the background this big heaping pile of fiber cases A lot of them look very wrinkly and water damaged and then they had a lot of You know, there was one lot that was selling some cases, but it was just a few Yeah So way more in this pile that they did not sell It's like clearly this stuff was in cases, but there was some, you know, probably in the basement probably is some sort of Yeah situation. Yeah Anyway, so once I get this set I realized that Uh The batter head's missing off the base drum, which I already knew that going in here Sure. The resonant is off the floor tom So it became very apparent that it was sitting facedown Either on the floor or in a case The 20 was placed inside Resting on the back side of that head You know the gk head. Yep. Yep Then the 13 was placed inside the 20 Uh I think the snare must have gotten some better storage because it doesn't have nearly any issues that these other ones do So anyway, and this is a calfskin head. Yeah. Yeah So, you know, it's stretching and tightening and stretching People believe, oh these things, you know, you look at them wrong. They would just you know disintegrate if you hit them too hard They're quite they're quite durable. Yeah, it's good to be farther from the truth. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean and this these drums are heavy, so You know, not really the best way to store An important drum set, but a lot of his drum sets were missing ahead The I think that was just the way he was nesting things. Yeah, so he could keep them stored And uh, unfortunately, you know, in this case this one got got really wet for I don't know how long. Yeah long enough to break the glue joints on the The front hoop and to completely dismantle the Front rearing from the head or from the shell. Yeah, so Well rust everything so that's unbelievable and uh, there's more to hear about it but I want to jump over real quick and just kind of like he let's hear from brooks a little bit about this and um As we're going I think now might be a good time Let's rewind 70 years and can we hear a little bit about this drum set? When it was, you know going around the world with gene like let's hear a little bit more about that And then we'll get into how you authenticated and some of that process which you explain a little bit more, but um What is the the the the background of this iconic drum set? It was clearly a brand new set 54 54 was a banner year for the company Because that was when the whole design of the lug casings and the rims changed And they went to a different style this set Uh came into gene's hands sometime in 54 And I have pictures of gene In two different club venues that I put in the book one of them he's playing What he had up until the point where he got this new set And the in the book I speculate about I wonder if All they did was just swap the hardware from beaver tail casings To the new stuff and of course no they didn't do that but the predecessor to to Steve's bass drum Was built the same way The legs were attached to the back And actually they were originally george way style legs Um also as I point out in the book they were You know it was sort of the the gull wing design, but it was george the george way catalogs when they first appeared Um, but they were in the same place back on the batter side of the drum And the front head was the same head But yet had yet to get the slingerland arch over the top But it's the same drum head That was added later when that became Something slingerland was trying to do and I have theories about that too So the drum set was his main set From that point until he changed to tomtoms With the smaller lug casings Somewhere around 59 or 60 But the bass drum Up until that point maybe even after Was the same thing It was the original You know barrel center T rods, etc, etc Legs in the back and then he switched after that To the more typical 24 where the legs burgers were slingerland And they were in the again on the front of the shell What he got was 20 by 20 because he had started using that style bass floor tom In the late 40s well before He had gone down from a 26 to a 24 He'd been using a 12 by 24 prior to that But then he got this set and it was brand new and In the early 50s somewhere And then he switched over in 54 to the newer style hardware Probably out of obligation Yeah, more than anything else because that's the kind of guy he was so The set became his main set and it went everywhere As steve said it was all over the world Hundreds of venues here in the states australia films Record dates is a matter of fact A lot of people's favorite krupa album is the one called drummer man Yeah, this set was used for that entire album Unbelievable and it's on the cover of the drum and man book which i have a copy of downstairs When i saw that i was like, oh my god, that's awesome. Yeah, and if i'm not mistaken krupa and rich that album, right? Yes, so yeah, i mean this it's it's extremely iconic set because it was The one he used most of the time If not all the time unless it was a rental He did use rentals For at least three years Um the different tom starts showing up in 57 So, you know, i I think it was at least three years, but often on he may have used Pieces of it later. It's hard to tell really But he was usually pretty consistent about sticking with Whatever was current. Yeah, so it'd be 55 to like 58. I would say 54 Oh 54 to 57. Okay. That's when that's when the new design a lot of people Have gotten that wrong. It's the the new design for the hardware actually came out in 54 And retailers would get a letter from slingerland Saying here's the new hardware and that letter was dated august of 1954 So i have a copy of one. So anyway, so yeah 54 to 57 is the the Less detailed range of when gene used that set And as we said he used it everywhere In learning about some of the things that were done with the set I can understand why because the it dealt with a number of problems steve can probably get into it better, but so unbelievably iconic set that Luckily, you know, it's it's been saved Yeah I mean, I will say that brooks as as someone who you i'm sure you wanted to win this drum set But but we've joked that it's uh, you know, that's some sometimes if you don't win an auction It can be uh, okay. No, I don't have to like sell my car to go buy this thing or something Well, I I do have to say that I was tipped off about this auction before it even started By a good friend of mine named bob sciancy and bob sent me a note said did you know this was going on? And this was all preliminary auction information like for a week So i'm sitting here. I'm all said I got everything scoped out and i'm sweating bullets for the beginning of this thing It's like come on. Come on. Come on. Let's go. Yeah in the process of bidding Over I guess what was it steve a week's time That the auction week week week and a half. I've made two phone calls to the auction people And I found out halfway through and this is when every name steve had mentioned it. You may not have known it but Somebody clued them in to what they were selling They had no idea And somebody obviously said you guys have a gene krupa drum set there You know, you need to up your game as far as displaying that And then I guess that's when it got separated from all the rimo stuff Because originally it was listed with all these other junk drums I'd be curious to find out what happened that tricks on snare. Do you know I noticed the tricks in like Uh, little tea behind in the picture and I was like, hey, I wonder where that went. Yeah I have it they all that stuff stayed. Oh, they kept that I kept that lot good. Okay. There was there was one leopard skin Uh, two blugs snare drum that got pulled out early on really but all that other stuff. Yeah, I have all that other great Well, good luck with that then Anyway, um taking up space So it was she told me that yeah, somebody had contacted them And told them what they had and what they were selling And at that point all of a sudden I watched the bidding go berserk You know, and it was like, okay Yep So much for me ever getting near this thing and I had good friends of mine That have a lot more money than I do going. Oh, come on man. Go for it. Go for it. I'm going I'm already past what I could ever afford But it was it was frustrating but fun at the same time So, you know, you have to feel good about this drum set being in the world You know, I mean as a historian, it's just a great thing And it's great that someone like Steve who's Doing a great thing with it and and bringing it, you know, doing the right doing it the right way It's great for all of us. Well, as we all know, we're only caretakers of this stuff for a A certain period of time and after that Hopefully it goes to another caretaker But as we also know museums are not that interested in drums Some stuff as recently of jeans Has recently gone to the pas people And that's great, but it might be years before anyone ever sees it Um, and of course Lots of talk about charlie's collection being a museum, which I believe is what will happen So, but you know, how many drum museums are there going to be? Not many and you know, a museum's going to accept a donation. They're not going to buy something It's frustrating, but that's the reality of it It is but this is museum quality pieces where Uh, it it again just to know it's out there to know that it's been saved Because give it, you know, a couple more years. Who knows the the house could have gotten so something could have there could have been a Flood it could have been just completely lost to time. The house could have burnt down. God forbid. It's just like Well, that's that's the main the main reason I wrote the book was that very fact That we don't know about the stuff we haven't found But at least we know some of what is there and hopefully if somebody reads the book And they see this thing they go, wait a minute. This is in the book. I you know Somebody should do something. It's like the the nine by 13 that benet was selling for years And had and told the anecdote about it having been stolen from the Back the whatever the loading dock Of the palladium or wherever it was Turns out That was a perfect connection and it was actually true But nobody's gonna believe it unless they look into it. So and there was that drum Which of course our mutual friends Joe also has now We're talking about joe lanny Okay, joe's like a fella joe. Yeah, he's got a lot of great stuff buddy stuff Now he's got Shaughnessy's drums. He's got bunches of group of stuff, but he's he Joe is gonna take care of this stuff You know, it's not just him buying it to turn around and flip it somewhere He's buying it because he considers it important It is important. Yeah caretaker. Who's a great way to put it. Um, Steve, let me ask you There's some special modifications to this drum set that brooks mentioned to me What are these modifications? I'm excited to hear. Yeah, uh, well brooks inform me that These you know this set, you know, as we know traveled all over the world a lot of times the people setting them up We're you know, it wasn't jean. It was you know, some stagehand or just you know, whatever. Yeah a non-drummer so um These modifications made it A lot easier for somebody who doesn't know drums to set things up as close to the same every time Uh, one is the floor tom legs. Uh, they're just straight legs, but about halfway up. There's a groove cut in them And that groove fits perfectly uh The old tom of leg holders It's a bent steel bracket just out of flat bar steel with some holes drilled through it And it's got an eye bolt affair and a wing nut and that's what you know, you put it through the holes we the The eyeball provides your tension holds your leg up. Well these allow you to put the leg To the right position and that little eyeball will go down in that groove. That's interesting. This is like very very early It's like pre memory lock right now people would have the memory lock. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, right interesting And so then the brackets on the the bass drum Uh that hold the cymbal arms Uh, they're your standard slingerland uh Brackets of the era That were made out of again made out of flat bar steel everything most things back then were fabricated from that We didn't get into die cast a lot of die cast parts to more in the 60s um And from all the pictures like oh just that's just a garden variety slingerland Uh bracket, uh, it had a little uh had pressed knobs on it and people usually refer to this as a telephone dial um A ratchet system like is we see on uh rail consulates from the 60s And there's a there's one or more holes on the little bracket that clamps on the l rod For your cymbal arm and then you can rotate it depending on what how you want. Well, anyway I pull this off one of them was one of the little clamps was missing but I see there's a little notch cut in the side of the bracket and then little knobs are all flattened out And I look at the bracket that holds the l arm And it's not the standard one because the standard one is just Curved along the edge there where the two parts kind of come together and then the wing nut goes through Well, this one comes down and it's got a 90 degree angle on and it fits perfectly in that slot So it can only fit on that bracket one way. There's no way you could rotate it and change it. So That was clearly a modification to make it You know and that was that was critical because it was a somebody's brilliant idea That slingerland had they not been right on the verge of changing To a whole different style of cymbal rod holder They probably would have adapted that themselves Because that the the clamp that steve is talking about that the cymbal rod goes through The original ones with had the You know they they had corresponding holes And nibs that you know the two pieces go together. They're supposed to lock in together They rarely did But with this one having that lift and that notch in the base plate meant that thing could never go anywhere And which is brilliant because we're talking about two pieces of steel locking together And being tightened down by a wing nut. They should have done that with all of them, you know Well, yeah instead of it slowly falling and then get each time it would never be as tight as it was And bear in mind that gene was using a 24 inch ride symbol in those days So any and this is probably why it happened any support that he could get for keeping that thing in the same place was important Yeah, what's really cool too is that you can set these drums up to be exactly The height and the way gene had them which is kind of another layer of like You know krupa coolness, right? Yeah Yeah, so that along with the uh, the uh, you know the spurs being mounted on the batter side Yep, uh, you know those I mean, I didn't realize I did not realize the situation with the floor tom legs from the auction And I didn't realize the other one because I'm like sending pictures to brooks And I'm like sending me a prepare to have your mind blown and here's the pictures of these bracket Uh, and it was the the little bracket with the the lip that hangs over that was a standard Wna part on a different clamp That somebody said well, you know what this we can take these two pizzas and make them work better than what we currently sell Well, I think I mentioned to you a while back Steve that The ones the symbol bracket holders the gene used in the 40s And up until the early 50s were just a flat bar The the raised center bracket Didn't actually appear until the late 40s and gene already had a lot of drum that he was using And that particular flat bar Had a clamp similar to what's on there now So i'm sure that's probably where the idea came from and as you mentioned The lip that fits over is actually shorter So it's it only fits over the the Thickness of the flat bar. That's as far as it went, but it was the same kind of clamp Right. Yeah, you can tell that somebody ground it to be flesh And made the edges the corners a little round. So somebody put a lot out and this you can tell this was It was done after it was plated So it wasn't like made this way somebody modified it. Yeah after the fact. So well gene is like a He's a he's like an r&d department in many ways for zilgen and for slingerland where he would be out there testing them He's the guy. So you know these symbols need to be heavier. They need to be lighter. This needs to be this This is falling on me Yeah, very cool. Yeah, I had listened to an interview the other day where he was talking about how he you know did consulting work for slingerland But you know, he would test things and they would you know, get his feedback and stuff and Uh, so well, it's like yeah, that kind of makes sense if he was You know, he was their number one guy on all their catalogs for many many years And never deviated from using slingerland Um, and he so he was in the field He was the guy, you know a good guy to test things out Although there are there are plenty of examples of stuff gene did not use And I I have it on good information that much of that was because he didn't like them or he didn't need them Uh, you know, that goes to show he plays what he liked. Yeah, and he kept it too Yeah, yeah, well all of the gene krupa branded stuff in the slingerland catalogs Most of it he didn't play anything remotely like it. I mean this snare drum has the three-point strainer A standard butt on the other and in no bridges. That was his favorite model Which he used most he used all the way through the thirties and forties And I think a lot of that's because of his where he started When he was playing a 10 two-blug artist model snare when he joined Benny's band And that was 1934 So he didn't want to fuss with extension brackets or any of that stuff So he would literally just take them off. That was his signature model drum And he never used that kind of drum that often once in a while. He did As a matter of fact the snare drum that followed yours Um Is indeed a snare of the 153. I think it was that has the extension brackets. It was the gene krupa signature model Um, so he did once in a while use them But not that all but you had the you had the clamshell Spanner, which is I have I have a radio king with one of those. It's a dreadful design I mean, it's just terrible. So no wonder he didn't use it, but you know, they were the The gene krupa models for a while there had a clamshell, right? Uh strainer, so but you know That's pretty common though. You see the guitarist who's not using his signature guitar because it's 300 dollars and Right, right Very true. And and one thing we got to talk about too a few things is just the The the rash kind of stuff on this drum set which adds so much coolness to it The cowbell rash where his cowbell was just from getting played and gene's cowbell was very iconic I mean, it's it's just neat to see that, you know, I'm sure it's just taking on taking off taking on taking off Year after year. It's just uh, it's neat. And then also there's the chrome loss on the um, the throw off there That's pretty cool. I mean, it's just heavy. Yeah Yeah, I mean I was I was like I said when I first looked at it in that garage just like, oh man I don't know if this strainer has been replaced or something because the chrome on the knob and stuff looked too good Uh, and then I was looking at it a couple days ago. I was like, oh, yeah, I don't know about that strainer And then I got up real close to it Uh with the magnifying glass and it's like, oh wait, this isn't perfect And look right on the edge there Where his thumb went there's chrome worn off So, you know, it's it's it's a surreal experience. Yeah, I'll go I you know, I'll take a look these things. It's like it's just the history of this thing. I mean, it's just objects But if these things could talk sure all the famous musicians they were He he played with right with this drum set very cool. There's a picture of a buddy noodle and on it and Who knows else? Uh You know, they go on these jazzy to fill harmonic all-star tours and stuff and You know any number of people could have sat behind this set. Yeah Uh You know, I mean a lot of these pictures show, you know household names that you know, most people would know dizzy gillespie and One of his dear friends, roy elbridge was on a lot of those, you know, linel hampton There's you know video of him and benny goodman and Teddy wilson the three of them. I guess benny teddy and uh and gene In late 54 Well, and then it was in the benny goodman story, but all of the famous Musicians that made cameos or played themselves in that movie Yeah, that were in the presence of this drum. Even though they were just miming along to playback Uh, it's just if this these drums could talk. Yeah, the stories they could tell. Yeah, absolutely incredible brooks, I want to ask you Was this a pretty much like like not a year and a half authentication process I mean steve acquired these drums june 21st 2023 or that's when the auction ended Like was this a pretty much pretty a pretty quick process of doing the authenticating or i mean you've done it enough to know these drums Yeah, we wrote the book on it, but I will say that I was convinced that these were gene's drums before the auction even started Wow, so and Steve actually did most of the the difficult work in tracking down things like photographs and Reference material and actually looking and working on the drums So for me, this was much easier And most of the time it was just me saying yeah, that's it. Yeah, you're right, you know So yeah, it was it took a lot less time But that's mostly because steve was doing a lot of the work that leads to the question of What you're doing is the process of cleaning them Leading into maybe as we kind of wrap up here what your final kind of goal with this drum set would be Yeah, I mean i'm i'm taking care of things like the rust on the t rods I'm trying to conserve things without you know Some of them were quite rusty There's a process a lot of people Use there was a gentleman on one a couple of the forms named mike who unfortunately passed away a couple years ago Or I guess last year in a motorcycle accident. I think he was the originator of soaking Rusty metal chrome parts in dawn dishwasher and targent and water High concentration of dawn And so that's what i've done on those is soak them scrub them gently with a brass brush Back in to get as much of the rust off so it's not doing any damage But there's plating loss you can see copper underneath Off the crown there's some places where it's all gone So things where it's not going to continue to deteriorate, but the The patina is still there um A couple of the tea or the claws are really really really rough, but I'm not going to replace them because they're part of the history of this. Yeah So I think it's a it's a bit it's terminology would be museums would say preservation as opposed to restoration So this is definitely a preservation mission Right. Yeah. Yeah, so i'm not you know, i'm not i'm not taking anything off the drums unless they needed to come off I took pictures of where the washers were clocked because they all say slingerland chicago on them. Oh cool You know a few things i've had to take off for various reasons, but they've all gone back in the same exact spot Uh, just trying to preserve it as best I can. Yeah Uh Yeah, well, what do you put is this going to be kind of just set up in your house? Or uh, would you have any big goal to like display it anywhere or are you kind of taking it day by day? Not really sure. Uh, I mean when I saw the state that these things were in the auction You know, they needed they needed a home Yeah, they clearly weren't in in great shape. They weren't being stored correctly Uh, I felt like me between me and you know, some some other people I know You know, I could get this thing back To where it's no longer deteriorating Uh, not going to fall apart and we'll be there for future generations Um Beyond that I haven't got a lot given it a lot of thought. I you know, I would like to I would like for it to be able to the public to be able to see it in some capacity But you know as brook said it's like, you know, there's not a ton of interest in that sort of thing. So Uh, you know, I don't really know. Um Yeah, I'm still still kind of wrapping my head around the whole thing. Yeah Well, I mean, it's not been very long. So you can still just enjoy them and yeah And there's still repairs need to be done. Yeah re-ring needs to be reattached. There's some separation You know, I kind of feel like the set, you know in in Raiders of the Lost Ark After the Nazis have captured the ark and they have it in that crate with all their insignias on it and it's on the on that U-boat and then You know good versus evil burns that The Nazi symbols off I kind of feel like this set was determined not to deteriorate and fall apart because Given the amount of I mean, I think this thing was sitting in a couple of inches a while Man, wow based on the condition of the, you know, all the wood parts on the front. So and and who knows how long Uh So, you know, it could have very easily Deteriorated the point where it wasn't recognizable if that had had been had had been thrown away Uh, it was just another drums old drum set to somebody I think there's even something a little more special to it With you buying it in that shape looking at those pictures of it in the yard as opposed to you buying it In maybe the shape it is now where it's been set up and and there's pictures of it Something pretty cool about buying this pile of drums that has Needs to be saved. You know what I mean? Like there's something very special about like You you got it. It's been saved. It's not you're not the second guy to like get his hands on it And like brook says I really subscribe to that, you know, unless you're immortal These things will pass to someone else at some point So I'm merely a caretaker at this point I can do what I can do to preserve them At some point these will pass to someone else and I think I think those people are out there too. I had a Great conversation with a young guy yesterday Who's just now Starting to play on his own radio king drum set that his father got for him And he's he's a great kid So this will be somebody that you know, he's going to be in a position down the road To see something like that available and jump on it So which I'm glad to see it didn't seem like the present generation was that interested in collecting anything So, you know, but this this is somebody who might be Yeah, I mean you'd be surprised that's um Stuff like this and there's a lot of I mean the drum Drummers are different. We love as we all know we love stuff like this. I mean, this is right There's like the dream of finding like like I look on like the goodwill auction website like people do and you find an acrylite And you're like, oh, it's 50 bucks That's like the layer one of this is of the hunt layer two as you find like a You know a black beauty somewhere which is mind-boggling. Yeah, this is the ultimate This is like layer 100 of like it cannot get I mean this is as Dream level of a find as it as it gets. Yeah, so Congrats to you. Steve. I mean, this is just unbelievable And I'll say that when I you know, I Obviously everybody knew who buddy was Uh, you know gene died in 73, buddy died and you know the I guess the early 80s 87 Yeah, so um I grew up seeing buddy on tonight show On the mike douglas show, you know all the talk shows So I knew who he was and I knew he was just this was amazing drummer, but I didn't know who gene was at that point um And I heard about him over the years I bought a one of the jazzy to fill harmonic Albums it was a drum battle between him and buddy and thought oh, this is kind of neat And then uh, I don't know in the 90s. I was in a library and I stumbled across drummer man You know they you could check it out and then they also had Uh, the uh the many goodman story So I checked those out watched them because I knew gene was in in that and Uh So I watched that and it's like oh wow There's gene and you know all the stuff and and then I listened to that album and that album is you know It's recorded in 55. So the sound quality is really good Quincy Jones's very first arranging job as a matter of fact Yeah, and there's a one of the pictures that I provided there's Quincy standing right next to it with gene looking over the charts amazing. Yeah, and then so I went out and bought a bunch of other cds back in the days when we bought cds I went to Best Buy and bought everything that's any kind of gene krupa or benny goodman compilation and some of them were just Unlistenable because It sounded like somebody bought an old scratched up record At goodwill and then recorded it and put a compilation of them on On a cd and so over the years A lot of official recordings have been released a lot of that earlier stuff Sounded a lot better than I thought it was gonna sure but I got my start Listening to that album and watching this movie and this drum set is In that movie and is used for that album, right? There's an omen there Yeah, that's another thing that blows my mind. Uh, never in my wildest dream did I think that I'd own this thing You can't think that you can't ever that even was still out there. What do you mean? I think that every day What are you talking about? We need to change the way we think about everything Well, I was listening. I was re-listening to one of y'all's podcast I think and you were talking about charlie's find and You know all the stuff that was found and and brook said I don't you asked you think there's anything else out there And brook said I don't think there's any other Complete sets out there. I was thinking about that. I said that and hopefully I said not that I know of Yeah, not Yeah, well, we you never know the stuff turns up all the time And at this time when I was listening to this This auction was taking place and I was like, man, you just never know. Yeah, wow You never know what's out there. That's true. Absolutely Yes, I mean I that episode in particular which led to Me becoming friends with don mccauley, which led to me getting to see the particular the bass drum that was at the jeans bass drum that was at the 2019 Chicago drum show Putting my hand on it feeling that gene energy which that led to meeting charlie watz was just this I I there's something and my grandpa grew up in new rachel new york He always talked about meeting gene as a younger guy He took lessons with george wetling and and you know, I never knew You know, grand paul's tend to uh, you know exaggerate a little bit But the more I heard things it was like man Maybe he did meet him a few times and play around in the in the new york area I've always had this connection with gene In some capacity and that's been taken to the you know the the next level through my Many conversations with brooks. So I have been so excited all week Since brooks texted me to do this conversation with you guys and and it's just Unbelievable. So I'm so honored to have Had this chance to speak with you and steve you'll have to keep us updated on on As it as it gets, you know cleaner and cleaner and you get it, you know Maybe set up or are you going to put symbols on it? You think and if you like display it Is that kind of are you at that point of thinking about it? Yeah, I mean I've been looking online You know all the symbol stands and the l arms for the symbols and stuff and it's like You know, I guess I'm going to ask brooks Everything to sell Yeah, because uh, you know, I mean The stuff's out there, but it's you know, it's hard. It doesn't come up every day So and I don't want to in particular the stuff that gene had with that set Um, I can tell you that yes, I've got plenty of wallberg And all j 502 I had stands, which is what he's using with that set, but The symbol stands. I'm not sure I'd have to look Yeah, you know, we'll we'll talk later, but uh, and then you got to find a can You got to find a canister thrown somewhere too and that big There's one out there, but yeah, but it's uh, you know, I I don't have the money right by all that stuff right now You've concentrating on Yeah, I feel like mrs. Steve has given you enough You way to buy this drum set that you you don't need to I've given her a lot of rope. I don't want to get her anymore Yeah, yeah, well, um This is just incredible guys and I want to mention because I don't think it it did well I was telling brooks before uh brooks and I did a uh breakdown of the gene krupa story Which was only on youtube So if you're listening to this as a podcast episode it was not available on the audio platforms And that video is at 11 000 views which brooks and I are both kind of astonished at but it's it's a really really cool Look, it's like 45 minutes of a breakdown of everything that's wrong with that Movie where gene's playing world war two era drums before the war even happened and things like that and uh, all kinds of things I just want to plug that because brooks did a great job on that and uh, many of his episodes Um, which I will link all of them in the description. Cool because as steve can attest brooks knows his stuff and he's it's it's uh, you know It's just great to hear someone who's so knowledgeable about um, so much Gene info, so I will link to all that stuff in the description, but uh, brooks can people get your book anywhere Is that available in print or on on digital as far as I know? It's still available on but it's always available through rob cook's publishing company Rebeets rebates. Yep. Um, I uh Someone said not long ago that it's still available on amazon for a while Basically until Until this pressing run Is done It's still available, but after that it's out of print completely It'll be digital digital. Yeah, I yeah, I mean rob will still have that with the um What you might call the Hudson Okay, yeah, yeah, and it's a great book. It really is I didn't I didn't I did not have it before all this um But I I quickly bought it after this because It's a great reference material piece of reference material and If you're uh, you know, if you nerd out on this kind of detail stuff You know, no one's gonna ever touch that. Well, I'm actually working on supplements now, which would include your whole thing um, but other stuff that's come to light since Since I you know since the book came out And I'm I'm still trying to prod my good friend over in the uk jerry brennan to start working on compiling jazz at the philharmonic um sheets because That stuff is a total mess and a lot of what we found here With photographs would have been much easier to date If the JATP documentation had been better done You know so sure it'll help everybody but He's busy all the time. But anyway, yeah Well, I love that this is I think the same thing with john bonham with ringo with buddy rich This is living breathing history where things I just did the simons drum history where They they were going you know The steve gram who wrote the book was saying that like it's his book was the complete guide to simons drums And he said it's incomplete because new stories came out on that episode that he hadn't had in the book And it's it's true with all this where things just keep coming out Uh, and that's the most fun of all this is you know every year something new seems to Uh surface so it's always something to look forward to well russ connor who published the books on benny goodman's history He had to wind up publishing three extra books Because of all the stuff that came out later So I don't have the yeah, I don't have the money for that. So I'll just yeah digital is easier because you can just upload a new file. I'm assuming but um Well, uh, this is great guys. So I'll put the link in the description for uh, brooks's episodes and the book Um, steve is there anything you want to where you know people want to find you or share anything I'll put all the pictures that you've provided in the the On my website with this and it'll be on the youtube, you know If you've seen the video you've been seeing them, but I'll provide them so everyone can see Uh the photos you provided but beyond that is there anything you want to say as we Wine down here. Uh, not really, uh, you know, I'm not looking to be famous here or anything but Um, you know the the set's not for sale Um, that's good. I like to hear that. So yeah, it's not for sale. So um and uh You know thanks to brooks. I mean, he's you know, he's a man of my own heart uh, who You know I nerd out all over these kind of details and look at pictures and all that kind of stuff and he's been a You know, I would say he's a been a great friend so far even though we this is the first time we've seen each other And uh, you know buy his book Uh, if you can't get a hold of the the physical book buy the digital book because it's It's a great read even if you don't like to read if you just like the pictures I mean, you can you can jump to a page and just find something interesting and that's kind of I mean it's It's really a thick book. Yeah You guys are making me blush now. Come on. Let's talk about it. Well, I mean seriously, it's it is a great book. So, uh, Thank you. Uh, yeah, um I'm you know, I'm grateful for all the work he's done to help uh You know document the other stuff that's been found and disprove the stuff that's not real and uh, it's you know, he's been an invaluable resource to carry on gene's legacy because You know gene Gene was my guy. Yeah, uh, I found him late in life, but Uh, as much as I like buddy rich Gene was a just a good and decent soul. Yeah, uh, I've never heard anybody that had anything bad to say about him his He put his heart and his essence into the his playing and I think that's why Uh People loved him. Yeah loved his playing reacted to his playing I was watching the uh the dci video about the buddy that's got louis belson in it And he's talking about gene and he talked about How buddy would get up there and just do some impossible You know a thing that buddy could do And then gene would do something far simpler But more musical and People would go crazy. Yeah And hear what he's doing from a technical standpoint It's not anything close to a buddy could do but gene just put his heart and soul into what he played And whenever you see him playing He's got a smile on his face. Yep. And part of that might be the showman in him, but It just seems it seems real to me Yeah, he enjoyed Playing music and playing drums and he did till the day he died. Yeah. Yeah He embodies the like jazz drummer man You know 30s 40s 50s if I pictured that it would be gene to me It's it's just the and yes, buddy, and I I love buddy and buddy's just a technical jaw dropping You know, it's it's incredible, but there's something very special about gene I think we all agree with that and if people are watching this in there I think buddy would agree with that I agree. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah Absolutely, so I echo everything Steve said about brooks. He knows how I feel about him and I'm very lucky to have him as a friend and Steve I appreciate you sharing your time and bringing this, you know to light and this is I've had 200 whatever 10 plus episodes and this is like a landmark Episode for me. I gotta say after this many years of doing it Bringing stuff like this to light is like what it's all about and I think everyone's going to enjoy it So, um, I really appreciate you guys being here and uh, you know, Steve good luck with everything with it Brooks always a pleasure my friend. We'll have to do it again as I tell everybody about you do great work here Thank you. Yeah, man. It's a great podcast and uh always something to learn uh and I I listen to it every week still working still working the back catalog Uh, but yeah, it's it's a great it's great to listen It's great to watch the ones that are on video. Those are great too. So great. Well, thank you. Thanks to both you guys Thank you, man. Thank you