 Policy shapers and lawmakers call for more participation of women and use in politics. And former president Goodluck Jonathanad advocates for the independence of electoral bodies in Africa. Well, this is Plus Politics and I am Mary Anna Cohn. As 2023 approaches, the challenge before the Nigerian electorate is not just the choice of a good candidate, but a candidate that reflects and understands true democracy and will also be able to accommodate the youth, women and society at large. In February of 2021, a New York state lawmaker in the House of Representatives, Tallulah Kwe Akande, called on leaders of political parties to make provisions for more women and youth participation in politics. But the question is, how ready are we to reposition our policy? Well, joining us to discuss this is broadcast journalist Gabriela Anyangu. She's also a public affairs analyst, Sonny Madukah, and former founder, policy shapers Ibnizah Wikina. Thank you very much gentlemen and lady for joining us. Thank you for having me, Nareen. Great. So I'm going to start with you, Dr. Madukah, because many have been calling for, you know, captains of industries, the elites, those who are more famous even than politicians to get into the ring and also be part of, you know, the political reshaping of Nigeria. But unfortunately, we keep hearing that age-long story of, oh, politics is a dirty game. But we see these captains of industries and people who have proven track records in leading companies or power statels saying that we see them gather together, you know, rallying around behind the career politicians, throwing their supports behind them. But they never really want to come forward to run for office. So again, the people who are calling for these elites to run for office, could it be that maybe there's something in those elites that we see that is way better than the people they support who are career politicians who, at some points, may have let us down? Yeah, you started it well because politics is a career, whether you like it or not. And when you see people like Dalgut or Tendola supporting somebody, it's part of the politics interest. Well, this is not for everybody anyway, but coming to the topic we're talking about, in terms of women participation, the allies' participation, we have a problem. And the problem stemmed from the constitution and, of course, the money involved. Some guys that are good, have that integrity to be measured in principle and value. The money aspect of it is what is driving a lot of people out of politics. And that is not well good in us because we are already losing a lot. It was supposed to be career politics and not there. What we have today are people who were fortunate that in 1999, when politics came on board, we were able to tap from what was the debris in 1993. Because after 1993, a lot of those who ought to be in politics lost hope after their normative. So when 1999 came on board, a lot of those career politicians didn't come on board. It was too good to risk that came on board. And we are looking at this scenario as something that we face now through 1999, with the short term, the minute we take over. We are seeing that we are having 20 years plus. So now it's now done in everybody that, look, that risk could have been taken then. But people didn't take that risk. And unfortunately, those who had hijacked that political arena sat down to now manipulate the end-trans points. The end-trans point is the political manifestos. So you can see that before you may invite for ordinary councilorship, you have to have some money, which ought not to be. And that is why some people are not going into politics because it has been bastardized. Politics is not more for service. It's not for, it's not become selfish idea by few individuals. It's supposed to be where people that want to know that they are serving humanity, it's not for themselves. But unfortunately, you see, in Nigeria today, we have politics that's for me, my family, my friends. So it's not more for the people. So this is the reason why some people are not going in. Then the other one is the security aspect of it. You saw what is happening in Anambra today. Who will go to politics? Who is sent? So some people who are sent cannot go into politics. Because it's becoming where it takes off. It's becoming a butchering arena. People have no more, the sacredness of human life is no more there. So everybody is with everything. I think we're in a jungle. Well, what's complaining about all of these things, how do we sanitize the system? If we're all going to stay out there and say, well, we can't, don't dirty. We can't get ourselves dirty. This is not for us. Like you have said, oh, it's not for people who are sane. But how can we make the atmosphere or that arena, as you put it, sane? If we, the so-called sane people, do not dare, like you said earlier on, to also take that risk? Yeah, you can only take a risk where you have a platform that is for everybody. The platform is already deformed. The platform where you can easily enter into politics is not for everybody. Like I just said, look at the manifestos of all the parties. We discovered before you governize it, before even engaging, you're expected to have a Godfather. You're expected to have a certain amount of money. So people are not looking at the integrity of the participant or the candidate. People are looking at what are you bringing on table? Which is not ought to be. Because people are coming to serve. But if you see the platform, the foundation of these politics, like I said, has been distorted. Because the issue about bringing policies that whereby people can enter freely is not there. We don't have an independent candidate in this country. Look at even the electoral reform deal that was passed. You can see that there are seed problems there. People are saying, look, this must be done in terms of transmitting results. And people are saying, no, we are looking at not too young to run. Yeah, it's good. But not too young to run. What are the basis? Because your man who has no money cannot venture into the Nigerian politics arena today. So the bottom line, let me just say that, we need to go back to the drawing board and look at our constitution and see how we can give room for everybody to participate. But for now, the politics in Nigeria is an enclosed entity. If you want to enter, there are things, conditions that so-called force cannot allow ourselves to be part of it. So that is the issue. If there's open field, if everybody can participate, if people are coming to serve because they want to serve, not because of how to belong to a certain society, how to belong to a certain person, somebody must mentor me in time of money back that would accelerate my movement into that. Somebody must say no, minute to me. So you see, politics is not what why force are. Certain people I call the same individuals. Let me come to you, Beniza. Beniza, you obviously founded policy shapers because you wanted to, of course, change the mindsets of young people who are coming up and see how they can also infiltrate the system. But the use and women are mostly the cake for the conversation tonight. How do you even begin to tell or sell the idea of being a policy shaper or even getting involved in any form of policy making or politics in its entirety to a young person who already has seen the picture that's been painted by Dr. Maduka? Yes, I mean, Dr. Maduka is a very good point. And truly, what he's saying is the sad truth. It's a really crazy arena out there. However, I think that that is even the reason why the same people in quotes need to even go in there. I mean, last year, I joined the political party in Nigeria last year. And sometime last year, we also founded the policy shapers platform. And we didn't think that we would get as much acceptance as we got. I mean, our community now has over 270 young people who are constantly engaged in policy conversation, whether it's on bills in Nigeria, policies all across the world. I mean, we've taken part in three global policy hackathons at Stanford and MIT, just trying to see how we can even just pack the interest. I think that is where it usually starts. It's mostly about interests. And at some point, I think the interest of so many people who I think represent the best of Nigeria was lost at the point where, as Dr. Madoka mentioned, the point where certain people got in and took hold of that space, right? So I think that early adoption is what is going to be very key. There's nothing wrong to begin teaching political education. I mean, I know we learn civic studies and stuff, but it's mostly just theory. But there's nothing wrong with teaching people to actually become engaged in the civic space. From secondary schools, really, they don't need to even get to universities. From primary schools, secondary schools, you need to know about parties, etc. I mean, I'm imagining that if I got into the political party, I mean, I'm 28 years old now. I got into the political party about five years ago. What I would have learned over time, I would definitely be way better than where I am now, starting, you know, from scratch, learning about the rudiments, understanding how members do different things and learning about inter-party politics. So I think that is interest. And we do have a huge role to play to stimulate the interest to young people very, very early on. And although everything that Dr. Madoka has painted is true, I think we still need to go in there because if we don't, like I mean, I was discussing with a couple of friends on Twitter a few days ago, if we don't go in there, when would we actually go in there? I mean, we say all things are bad, things are dirty, but that is often because people who had taken over the space have been able to dominate it for what, 15, 16 years. So imagine if we need another 15 years to change the narrative. We don't go in now, when are we going to go in? Many throw around the statement or rather the coinage, the office of the citizen of the federal republic. We throw it around. But do we really know what that office entails? Do we know the power that comes to that office? Because that's another thing. We see a lot of young people. Now, let me just digress. The people who snatched by lot boxes, those who are engaged in banditry, those who are shooting up the place in Anambara, in Aba, these are mostly young people. My father at his age would not be doing that. It would really, it would be ridiculous for him to be doing that, gun running and all of those things. It's the young people that are the ones that are being used, whether they're doing it for political parties or politicians or for all kinds of strange reasons, it's young person. So again, it brings to the cost of question, how ready we are to take on the future? Because when it's pre-election season, we see these kinds of conversations come up. All the youths needs to come and take their place. Women need to get involved in politics. But in reality, the young people seem not to understand how powerful they are. So where do we even start? I like what you're doing and you're touching a few lives, but how many more young people are taking advantage of the situation to engage more young people, whether they be interested in politics or not, but in terms of the roles that they have to play in society, because ultimately, it affects us one way or the other. Oh, I think we lost him. Let me throw that question to Gabriella. So I think that it's a very interesting question because this is our reality. I kind of think that the norm of politics as a dirty game has sunk in so deep into our subconscious. And so with every generation after the other, we learn and hear people always say, oh, politics is a dirty game. And so we grow up as women and young people not wanting to engage in politics because we presume that politics is supposedly a dirty game for the adults. And I think that's a very wrong notion. I also think that's why we have become so complacent when it comes to politics. I mean, just like Dr. Maggar mentioned earlier, how many people, how many Nigerian women and young people are card-carrying members of a political parties, you would find the numbers to be very, very low. Think about the populations of Nigeria, for instance, women make up to 9% of that figure, half of that percentage are eligible to vote. How many of these women actually come out to cast their votes? How many women engage in conversations bordering politics and governance and the economy? How many young people today are interested in having such conversations? Think about, for instance, the president of Nigeria, Mohammad Buhari, in the military regime. Think about when he started involving in governance and leadership at a very young age. How many 25-year-olds, for instance, do we have right now who are engaging stakeholders, who are asking questions, demanding accountability? We don't have all of that right now because we have grown so accustomed to the idea and the thinking that politics is for the elderly people, it's for the older people. Right now, I need to just focus on having a great time with my life and not to be so. I think that we need a reorientation, we need to be able to create or spark a new level of consciousness to say, look, the Nigeria we so desire, the Nigeria we so anticipate to enjoy in the future, lies on my shoulders as a Nigerian, lies upon me as an individual first. So it's beautiful that we have young people, I will not deny the fact such as Mr. Ebenezer, who is doing amazing right now, but he can't do that all alone. We need more young people taking the bull by the horn and realizing that, look, policy, politics, economy, conversations about governance and leadership actually rests on our shoulders. Just like you mentioned earlier, these young people who go about, you know, working for, you know, the leaders who go about, you know, carrying out illegal corrupt activities, especially when it regards elections, they do that using the services of this young voice. If you know that your votes actually count, you will not engage or sell it for a thousand error or for a couple of thousands. But Gabriela, let me take you on there. It's easy for us, for you and I, who have had access to education, we've gone to great universities, we've got good jobs to sit on our high horses and say that, oh, these people do not know the power of their votes, blah, blah, blah. But do we really look at the reason why these people are where they are? We've had leaders come and go, who've promised to give good education, to give access to healthcare, and some of them grew up in the worst areas and really had nothing to hold on to. I remember when I spoke to Sheikh Gumi, he talked about the fact that there was poverty, there was, some of these people were abandoned by their governments, and this is their own way of getting back at government. I'm not in any way saying that what they're doing, especially the bandits, is great, but we fail to address, maybe we do fail to address, the reasons why we have these kinds of upsurges or why we have these non-state actors come to play. Can we just sit here on our high horses and point fingers and not take into consideration what must have thrown these sets of people up? I think that's why we need the people who are already in power, of course, speaking about women now and the young people who are already in some level of leadership to take the ball by the horn. You're supposed to be at the top of the ladder, you're supposed to be able to pick others as you come up, because like you mentioned, it's a valid problem. It's a challenge, poverty, electricity. You cannot go to, for instance, the rural areas right now and say, oh, you vote camp. They don't even understand what you're saying. And for this message to get to the grassroots, it behoves all the people who are already in some, you know, participating in leadership at whatever level to take the ball by the horn and pick others as a climb up. We have some young people who are in their 40s, who are in their, who are 45 year olds, who are either in the House of Assembly, who are, you know, in the Senate. We have people right now who are in some level of participation, what are they doing? We can't expect a miracle to happen. And all of a sudden, we're seeing, you know, the numbers rising just because some miracle happened and everybody suddenly realized that, oh, I have the power. It will never happen. That is why we have to keep the conversations going, making the demand of the already existing leaders that we have, especially the young ones among them. So what are the young people doing in leadership? What are they doing? I want to go back to think that because if we can make the man of these people who are in the Senate, who are in the House of Assembly to involve, not just involve, engage foundationally, these other people in the rural and grassroots, then I think we'll be on our way to, you know, better engagement and participation in politics. I want to go back to Dr. Madhukla now and still talking about, I remember I put it down because you talked about us revisiting our constitution and making it accommodate a lot of things. And you also make mention of the fact that, you know, the electoral act bill, which is supposed to be signed into law, still has, you know, some hiccups and Nigerians are still pushing and dragging for the National Assembly to agree to the electronic, wholesome electronic transfer of results or transmitting of results and that's the case on its own. But let's not forget that these politicians that we're complaining of, these so-called corrupts or people who are not up to the task, are the people who occupy these offices. They're the people who occupy our National Assembly. And if we're asking for a change of sorts, can we be asking those people to make a change that would one way or the other cut off their arm to spite their face? So how do we even go about it? Yeah, there's this phrase I used to say, I say, a bad government, a bad government will always be defended by those who benefit from it. And that's exactly what I can use in summarizing what you ask. You know, like he said, who are those that are benefiting from being the highest paid legislator in the whole world, legislators? So if you look at it from that, you'll discover that what Gabriela said and of what Beniza said, they are in sync with it. Look at it this way. In Nigeria today, the constitution is telling you that there are things you must do for you to get into position. One of them is that you must have at least basic qualification. And today, today, the constitution has a dichotomy because if you're from all, I don't want to go deeper, if you're from the person who is doing us today, what qualification? But can this happen to other request now? So there's a dichotomy, it's a calling. There's something that Gabriela said about women participation. Women cannot participate because the men in qualities do not regard women. Let me give you an instance. One of the legislators kept one day to the house of, to the house and all that he can boast of is to tell the house that he has four wives and they can obey him even if he tell them to go anywhere. This is the problem. And if you look at our tradition and our religion, many women cannot come up because some of them are not allowed except in the other room. So women enlightenment is very important. Unfortunately, we don't have women advocates. Women advocates that can go and liberate these women that have been imprisoned by men for. But there are a few of them, there are lots of women who are trying to change the mindsets of other women. They are not forcefully enough. For instance, if they are forcefully enough, the women in Nigeria, if they are forcefully enough, to go deeper to understand that girls' child marriage is evil. How can you marry somebody who's eight years, 12 years, to somebody who's a politician and nobody talks about it? So you are not taking that person to court. But in your registration of our SIM card, you say it's only from age 18. But you don't see anything wrong for a woman who is eight years, 12 years, 40 years, to get married to a politician. So they say they're caught up in. You see, when you talk about nationhood building. Oh, I think they've turned. It's not about patriotism. It's not about people who want to really see that it's not about us, it's about others. But unfortunately, we don't have them. For the youth you're talking about, what are we used to them? What are they doing? Are they not part of it? Like Beniza said, some of the youth are the ones they use by these recycled leaders. Look at it this way. Our youth today, they wanted to do something. They wanted to revolutionize Nigeria. We started with ensigns. Who are the people who truncated ensigns? Who are the people who were head to truncate? The same youths. We have, basically, historically, who have youths before, they made it down to Bankole, we have Nogara, we have Bukare, Sakari, Senaki, we have, we have other people, Osuji Okano, Ken Amani, all these are youths. What are they bringing to ensure that some things change for the betterment of everything in Nigeria for today. If there's any youths, we are all clamoring for. A few of them, of course, everybody will talk about Niki today. Because he's standing. He's the only person one can look at. Look around you. Who is your mentor? Among them are the Stakewans and the youths. So there's no one you can point out which is the basis of every government or every nation development. There will be somebody that people will point out and say, this is somebody who is taking us to the other. Unfortunately, Nigeria, no. For now. Okay, I don't know if Beniza is back. So this question is for you. We're talking about all the problems, but I always like to point to... Yes, I am. Yes, I always like to point to solutions. 2023 is around the corner. The politicians are repositioning themselves. They are strategising. Political parties are also strategising. We're hearing that this person is moving to that party back and forth. What about us, the people? What do we do also to position ourselves so that we do not get carried by the same wind that carries us away every single time we gear up for elections? Yeah, I mean, the first and most important thing is to get registered. 71% of every new voter so far had been young people. And we are continuing, I mean, within policy shapers and even outside, we're continuing to see how we can make more young people register. Because it's only when you register that you can even have a chance to show and to choose someone, right? That's actually the first step. The second step is, usually during political season, conversations usually come up about biases, there are a whole lot of things that come up to distract people. But in these current political seasons, we're trying to see how we use social media to force the conversation to be about issues, you know, the key development issues. Let us stop discussing about where the person is from, what is wearing, etc. Let's begin to discuss, you know, what have you done before you even came here? What's your track record? Those politicians just appear over nights, you know, and I run for a particular position without showing that they've done a similar thing that you're promising. So let's begin to ask questions, you know, strong questions. And answers for me gave me a lot of hope. Sometime last year, just like almost every young person I was beginning to think about, you know, how can I write this test or write this exam to travel out of the country? But answers as successful as it was or unsuccessful as people would say, it showed that it's actually possible to actually rally around people and get people to unite on the common cause, you know, for the first time for me in Nigeria, I mean, our parents say it happened in their time. But for me, for the first time in my life, I saw that happen for my own generation. We're able to rally together. And so that shows that we do have some sort of inherent power that we can use to push good causes forward. We just need to be able to say we want to do it. We just need to say let us actually do it. And once we have that agreement, I'm sure we can go forward. So to summarize, I'll say let us register and let us make sure that the conversations are pushed forward. I mean, I'm happy for people like Gabriella and for Plus TV that continues to put conversations about issues and those are the things we need to discuss. Let's forget about all the other things that take us away. Let's talk about all the issues and the track record. All right. And final words, Gabriella, because you're the lady, so we're going to be biased about it. Like I said earlier on, it's the women folk that are, women are the ones who are called to, they're like the shakers and the movers in political parties, but what positions do they hold, treasurer or women leader? They hardly make it to party chairman or even vice chairman or even spokespersons. We hardly see them in those positions. So if you're asking women to be part of political parties, how many more women can they rally to support them because the boys will always be there for the boys. It's a boys club. How can the women also form a women's club within the boys club? You see, I think it's a really sad situation. We found ourselves in Nigeria. It's as though we take two steps forward and five steps backward. I remember a time in Nigeria where we had a female presidential candidate and we all know what happened. Not even her family showed up to vote to support her. So it's a really sad situation, away from just reigniting that consciousness. I think that women in particular, especially my major concern is for women who are already in politics, I think that the book of the Responsibility Falls on their tables, they ought to rise to the occasion and pull these other women up. So yes, indeed, the men would obviously be gearing right now towards the next elections come, what, 2023. And none of these men would be considering the women. So the women obviously have been left to send and fight for themselves. I don't think we're fighting. I don't think we're fighting hard enough. So in closing, I'll just say that the women who are already in politics at whatever level ought to rise to the responsibility. What are they doing right now? How actively are they pursuing the cause for women? You would find that in Nigeria, they're kind of politic to play, just like Dr. Madika said earlier on on the show. It's quite sad because in other climes, for instance, you would find women who are championing causes for more percentage of participation for women, for young people, even for men also fight that cause. But here in Nigeria, we all know what politics is here, either your siphoning funds, your enlarging your coast or just about your own selfish interest. It ought not to be so. And this is just a glaring example and a show to see how deeply we have failed as a system. How terribly the system we're currently operating under is failing and is a complete mess. We need actively to change. And that change starts with us realizing that as women who are already in the local government council, in the synods, House of Assembly, whatever level, you have a responsibility. And that responsibility is to push for more women like you to come into leadership. Then and only then we'll even have a flicker of hope and begin to ask all the women to be card-carrying members at the very least. Well, I want to say thank you. Gabriella Yan was a broadcast journalist. Dr. Sonny Maduka is a political analyst and Beniza Wikina is the founder of Policy Shapers. Thank you so much, lady and gentlemen, for this very interesting conversation. We appreciate it. Thank you for having me, Maria. All right. Well, thank you all for staying with us. We'll take a short break. Now, when we return, former president, good luck, Jonathan, six independent of African electoral bodies. Is it achievable in Nigeria? Stay with us.