 I'd like to get your reaction to what Rand Paul, pretty much the sole Republican that I know of who has spoken out against the impending TikTok ban. I think we should be aware of those who peddle fear. I think we should be aware of those who use fear to coax Americans to relinquish our liberties, to regulate and limit our First Amendment rights. Every accusation of data gathering that's been attributed to TikTok could also be attributed to domestic big tech companies. In fact, one of the bills they're looking at doing is broad enough that the president will be given the power to designate whatever country he sees fit to be an adversary and whatever company underneath that definition. It would basically be a limitless authority for the president to ban speech. Before banning TikTok, these censors might want to discover that China already bans TikTok. Do we really want to emulate Chinese speech bans? Aren't we the ones that say it's wrong for China to ban speech? So we're going to be just like China and ban speech we're afraid of. I hope Senator Mines will reflect on which is more dangerous, videos of teenagers dancing or the precedent of the U.S. government banning speech. For me, it's an easy answer. I will defend the bill of rights against all comers, even if need be from members of my own party. What's your reaction to Rand Paul's comments, Taylor? Yeah, I mean, exactly what he said, it's completely true. Like all of this stuff about data privacy. Yes, we have a huge data privacy problem in this country. The foreign adversaries want data on U.S. citizens very easy to get because literally we have almost no privacy regulations. So, I mean, I basically agree with everything he said. He also, I do love the prospect of the 2024 election being like the footloose election where it is going to come down to politicians who want to ban dancing on TikTok versus people who don't want to. I think we know how that movie ends. But Taylor, let me ask you because you also, and I'm assuming you feel a little bit uncomfortable being on the same side of something with Rand Paul, partly because you've talked a lot about misinformation, disinformation, malinformation on social media platforms. You are steadfast in saying, it's insane for the government to ban TikTok. It's insane for the government to tell us what social media platform or what kind of media we can consume and for how long. What, how do you go about policing, and these are contested categories, misinformation, disinformation, malinformation? How do you go about policing that without abrogating people's rights of self-expression and freedom of speech? Yeah, well, it's always bizarre to me when people accuse me of saying like, oh, I want some sort of censorship because I talk about misinformation. Never once have I said that like the government should be the one determining what's misinformation or censoring anything on social platforms. I've always said, I think, I think misinformation and disinformation, look as journalists here, it's a huge problem. It's very frustrating. People are grossly misinformed on a lot of stuff because of it. The solution to that in my opinion is better media literacy, explaining to people how these platforms work. I mean, I always say the best way to debunk of rumor, and I've learned this about rumors about myself, right? It's not even to just say, like delete that, right? Like get it taken down. It's to explain, here's what's happening, right? This person is lying. Here's why they're lying. Here's the shape of this campaign that it's taking, right? Like, I just, I think that the government does not have a good track record on deciding what's misinformation or not. If they did, us reporters wouldn't have jobs, right? So, you know, I- How do you feel like, you know, kind of digital natives? You know, and at this point, I mean, I guess the true generation that's digitally native might be Gen Z or younger people, but do you feel like they are, they're up to the challenge of that kind of radical media literacy or skepticism of, you know, of kind of vetting what kinds of information they're getting, or are they even more kind of prone to the sort of confirmation bias that those of us who, you know, remember the days of broadcast TV might be? Yeah, I mean, look, I think we have a huge problem with media literacy in this country across the board. It's not just boomers, it is also people on TikTok and we believe everything they see on TikTok and YouTube. YouTube is a big one that I hear all the time. You know, are they up to the challenge? Maybe not right now, but they could be. I mean, I think if we took this problem seriously and if people in power took this problem seriously, we could have a better system and we could have a more educated public, you know, with a more diverse media ecosystem, by the way, I'm a huge proponent of independent journalism, you know, journalists on social media, people getting their voices out, not just these legacy systems and legacy media, but we need people in power to wanna do that. And of course, a lot of people in power, they're busy, you know, just peddling their own brand of misinformation. So they don't really have an interest in an educated public. And that's a huge problem. That's been a problem since even before social media. I mean, I completely agree with everything that you're saying there that this is the role of journalism and this is the challenge of our time is to try to create an organic kind of media literacy and like healthier ecosystem. But that's not what I've seen unfold over the past, say five to seven years. What I've seen is a concerted political effort starting around 2016 to create a perceived crisis around myths and disinformation. And this is now converging with the fears of China. And both of these things have like a root truth to them, but politicians are running with both of these things to now exert what we're now seeing as the most authoritarian version of a crackdown on a social media app, but we've been seeing it build up to this in the ways that we've had these, you know, kind of sketchy public-private partnerships in terms of policing, myths and disinformation online. So do you worry, I mean, do you agree, I guess, that there has been that kind of feeding into that perceived crisis and the idea that the government needs to act on that crisis has kind of created the conditions for what we're now seeing unfold with TikTok? Yeah, I mean, I think undeniably, all of these fears are playing into this TikTok stuff. I think also these lawmakers are being very savvy in, you know, touching on these lightning rod issues that they know will instill fear and panic. I think it's just, you know, one thing that I try and do with my reporting is debunk things and explain to people how the internet works, right? And I don't think that any of these lawmakers showed very much understanding of how the basic, you know, basic social media platforms work, how the internet works. I mean, the Facebook hearings were equally as painful. This is not me just... Oh God, they were national humiliation. It was just, you know, we need people in power that understand these platforms intimately and also are not just using them for their own gain, right? Like, of course they're gonna use them to get elected and stuff like that, but we need, you know, people in power that aren't just interested in their own power, which is very hard to find. Of course, that's what everyone in power just wants more power, but it's, yeah, it's disappointing to see them rely on these tropes. And I do think that, you know, debunking bad information is important. I think, again, that's journalists do that every day. And there's ways that we can make a healthier media climate that isn't banning apps or government crackdowns. That was an excerpt from Reason's live stream with the Washington Post's Taylor Lorenz. If you wanna watch another excerpt from this live stream or the whole thing, go here and here. And come back every Thursday at 1 p.m. Eastern time to Reason's YouTube channel and watch this live and participate, ask questions, and we'll get answers for you. Thanks for watching.