 Hello, Europe. This is Vienna calling. These are the results from the Games for Geoscience panel. Welcome to the 2020 Games for Geoscience games night. Sorry we can't be with you all in person tonight. Unfortunately, you know what's going on. We're all stuck to our houses. We can't meet together in Vienna. So we're doing this online. So those of you who are not aware of what EGU is, EGU is the European Geoscience Union. It's an annual conference of me to about 16,000 researchers all across Geo and Earth Sciences. We study the Earth, the environment of planets and how they work. On this session here, we've got geomorphologists like myself who study how the Earth surface changes, but we've also got geologists, rocks and stuff. But during the week of the General Assembly of EGU, we normally have hundreds of science sessions where we share our research, we get together and meet together. Some people do talk, some people present posters and we share our science and we also network and get together. Those of us on this stream, we run a session each year called the Games for Geoscience session. That's a really good role. And we all love games of different types. So we play games in our spare time. But we also try and fit games into our research to try and enhance how we're doing our research, how we teach our subjects and how we engage with the public and try and share our research and get it out there into the wider world. Alongside this, normally we have a games night where we get all games which are themed around kind of geoscience and environmental science. And we share that with people. And last year, we had a really fantastic one. We had 300 people turn up and play games. We've run out of tables, people playing games on the floor. We had all sorts of games. We had video games, card games, board games, even Liz who's on the stream ran a flood-themed Dungeons & Dragons role-play game. So it's really fantastic. And we wanted to keep that momentum and keep it going. We've put this live stream together. We're going to be playing a game called Monster Flux, which unfortunately isn't a geoscience game, but it's a simple enough game that we could play and get used to playing on the stream. And we're going to be talking about our research, talking about geoscience. And the idea is that you guys can play games with your friends, your colleagues, play online, play alongside us, listen to what we're talking about, engage with the chat on YouTube, send us lots of questions. We'll be happy to answer them. And just really just enjoy the next couple of hours just hanging out with us and hanging out with everybody else watching the feed and playing games. So, my name is Christina. I'm a researcher at the Energy and Environment Institute at the University of Paul. My research is geomorphology. And so I'm one of the conveners on the Games with Geoscience session. We also have Sam, Rolf, Jaz and Liz who are the co-conveners on this. And we're just going to play this game called Monster Flux. And as it's each player's turn, we're going to introduce ourselves. So I believe it's Sam's turn. Thanks so much for that introduction, Chris. So as Chris has said, you know, we're playing Monster Flux, which isn't the geoscience game at all, but it is a game that we've picked because it has a relatively low level of gaming literacy. So hopefully be able to follow along. My name is Sam Elingworth. I'm a senior lecturer in science communication and my research is involved with developing dialogue between scientists and non-scientists and giving voice to audiences that are traditionally underserved and underheard. And one of the ways in which I do this is through using games, both games design and also games as a facilitator tool. And the latest game I designed is a tabletop game I designed with my colleague, Paul Wake, called CarbonC0. So we're playing a game now called Monster Flux. Now, I seem to have been given the responsibility, stroke, dangerous role of you can see my screen. So what that basically means is you can see how good, or in my case, terrible, a player I am. Flux is a really, really straightforward game. It's from Looney Labs. The way it plays is that everybody's dealt three cards and then you start off by you draw a card and then you play a card. You don't have any of the rules to start with. There's not even any win conditions. So the win conditions get introduced as we go through. So we're going to play, I'll talk you through my hand to talk a little bit through what I'm doing and then I'll pass on to the next player. And I just wanted to say a big thanks to Chris and Hazel for really putting this night together. You would not believe the amount of different pieces of technology that are running in the background to keep this going. Chris has basically used up half of the power outage for the whole and homicide area just in having this game going at the moment. So it's my turn now. What I'm going to do is I'm going to begin by dragging my cards into my hand. Now, what I'd ask is please don't reveal my hand on Twitter because then Liz, Jazz, Chris and Ralph will be able to see what I'm doing. So, here we go. Dude, I can see you on the Zoom screen. You can also see me on the Zoom screen. Just don't look at my hand if you are. Don't cheat. Well, in first place games designed, don't cheat. But don't create an environment where people can cheat. So I'm going to start off. I'm going to draw a card. So I'm just going to go here. I'm going to draw one card. And I'm just going to keep things nice and simple. I'm going to play this rule card here, this goal. So what this means is that in order for somebody to now win the game, they have to have the moon and the witches as keeper cards in front of them, which will become apparent as we go forward. So that's going there into the rule. I'm Sam Elingworth. Thank you so much for joining us this evening. I'm going to end my turn now and pass you over to Liz. All right. Hi, everyone. My name is Liz Lewis. I'm a lecturer in computational hydrology at Newcastle University. And my research is all about really data. I'm really interested in kind of the hydrological data that's really important for looking at how climate change is affecting our water resources. I'm a kind of special area of interest is looking at creating data sets and improving the quality of the data that we use and to go into our kind of modeling of climate impacts. I do loads and loads of outreach. And I use games mainly as part of my outreach because they're just a really brilliant way of getting people excited and interested in what it is that you have to talk to them about. And yeah, so that's what I do and kind of how I'm involved. Now I'm going to try and play my hands. I've not really played flux very much before. So, drag my things to the hand. You see how I'm doing video games. I'm more of a tabletop kind of person. So we should probably explain as well that we're in a tabletopia, which is an online gaming environment, which is free for people to play. We've actually got a premium version here so that all of us can get involved. And this it's it's set up so it's a sandbox. So basically, there's basic rules in terms of like how you can snap cards to the screen. But if Liz wanted to cheat, which I'm sure she won't. But if Liz wanted to cheat, there's nothing in the actual online environment to stop them from this from doing that. So that's tabletopia. That's the environment in which we're playing at the moment. Cool. So I'm going to play this Keeper, which is a mad scientist. So up next is Ralph. Ralph, try to introduce yourself. Yes, I do. Thank you very much, Sam. Sorry for the food. It's 6pm here. Family dinner time. While we're playing this game, normally I would have very much like to have this game night, of course, with everybody in Vienna. I have made my dinner somewhat Vienna style by having a big wiener. Having said that, I'm an assistant professor at Delft University of Technology. My research focuses on three aspects. First of all, I do sensor design. I like to tinker new sensors. I run the MacGyver session at EGU. Second of all, kind of like Liz also does, I'm also involved in computational hydrology where we build infrastructure that allows other hydrologists to use high performance computing to do their research. It's called the water cycle project. And then because of my research, I got involved into outreach. I was asked to do some interviews and write some columns and at some point I started questioning whether the outreach I was doing was actually efficient. And I started looking into the literature on science communication. And I found that while there wasn't a large body of literature that I could benefit from, there were especially for geosciences also gaps in the literature. My third leg of my research involves how to do effective science communication within the geosciences and I've collaborated with among other Sam and Chris on some of these and then some of that research was related to games. I think that games can be used as a very effective way to communicate concepts within the geosciences to a broader audience. So we've looked at the way that landscapes in what we call triple A computer games, we specifically looked at Zelda Breath of the Wild as an example of a triple A computer game, whether people get the right or wrong notions from the kind of landscapes that they are presented with within these kind of games. It was both fun and very insightful research to do that informs the way that we do science communication. Having said that, it's my turn. And I have to click here. I have to draw one card from this pile draw one. I've got an addition. What I like about what I like about monster flux, whether we're doing for a science conference is that a lot of the things that people associate with monsters are also associated with scientists which maybe we should think about our image. Having said that, I'm going to play one card which is a keeper called the laboratory. Of course, I'll just zoom in on that so people can see it. So I now have a laboratory. And with that, I'll pass on my turn to the next player. Cool. So just before we throw to jazz, we've had a question in from Martin and Martin's question is, have you added this game to table topia? Martin, even though some people in the group definitely have the computing skill sets to do so. We haven't. This is available for everybody to play. And in the three version, two to three players can play. But for the premium version, which is only $9.99 a month. Yes, table topia. I am available for sales for your company. Then you can get six players playing for this. Had a really question as well. Where can we see about this Zelda Geoscience project? What I'd invite you to do is Hazel is going to send a tweet out through the EGU Twitter handle or Rolf is going to do it from his Twitter handle. Showing a link to the Geoscience communication paper in which Rolf and others look at how Zelda Breath of the Wilds can be used to think about landscapes in the real world versus in the gaming environment. So please keep these questions coming. They're really, really insightful and it's great. And we hope that you're playing your own games at home as well. We'd like to know what games you're playing. We'd like to know how you're playing those games. We'd like to know who you're playing those games with. Of course, always making sure that you're staying safe and indoors. So Jazz, let's throw to you a little bit about yourself and then take your turn, please. All right. Yeah. So I'm Jasmine and I'm an Electro-Fiscal Geography at Newcastle University. And I am a historical and social volcano. So I blur the lines between physical sciences and the social sciences. Because I'm quite interested in how people live with volcanoes in the present and in the past to try and inform what it might look like in the future. And mainly so far that's been in the Caribbean Europe. And in terms of games, I'm definitely more of a video gamer. And I don't really do research per se, but it kind of, in terms of video games and looking at your sciences, started out as a little hobby. So I do play games a lot. And what happened was I was placed in Spyro Reignited Trilogy on the Xbox. And there's a few levels in that game where there's some lava, some sort of volcanism. And basically I just kind of got curious and thinking how actually accurate is this volcanism in the game? Does it represent what we see in real life? And it kind of turned into like a little fun blog post. But then I kind of caught the bug of it. So I actually ended up kind of doing a number of different games such as the Lego games and even a game called From Dust. And looking at how accurate the volcanism and lava hazards are represented in the game. But the last one I did was Shadow of the Tomb Raider. So I love that game. But then I actually had some friends contributing as well. So I had a friend, Ed McGowan, he actually, his first one was the Breath of the Wild, looking at the volcanism in Breath of the Wild. And I also had another friend, Nadine Gabrielle, who looked at Pokemon to look at the geology in Pokemon. So for us it was more of a hobby, but actually we kind of were like, we did actually present this research at a conference this year. And people were very interested because it was two volcanologists. And then we thought, you know what, we could actually turn it into a bit of research. So we actually are thinking of a paper we're going to write at the moment to try and be like actually how representative is volcanism in games. And can it actually teach kids and population because these games are very popular. So they do pick up on these sort of things that you see. Yeah, that paper is going to be, that paper is going to be in GeoSense communication, right? Yes, we actually have decided that it's going to be in GeoSense communication because it's definitely the best journal for it to be in. So I want to read it. That's awesome. I know it has to go to a peer review and all that jazz before, but can you say something about the realism of the film? I mean, I've been on Death Mountain. And I've seen that very tall spire that just continuously out of nowhere seems to spew out lava. So what is your, how realistic is it actually? So in terms of Death Mountain, well basically the Legend of Zelda series, obviously it does different things depending on the game, but the general base of it is there are volcanoes that are constantly outpouring lava. I suppose if we compare the Breath of the Wild, Death Mountain, I think the close example I could give is probably Mount Etna in Italy, because that volcano is a typical strato volcano. So we have a big pointy cone or not. And it does actually as well as rather explosive eruptions that produce ash. It also does produce lava flows like you see in Death Mountain. So in terms of that, it's accurate. In terms of actually living close by to this volcano as well, the villages at the bottom of Death Mountain, that's also kind of realistic. So the Gorgons themselves, not realistic, but in terms of them... I think their diet consists of rocks. Yes. In terms of them as a species, compared to humans, not accurate, but in terms of them living off the land and off the volcano. And actually there's actually one reference that tourism has been impacted by the volcano. That's also very real and actually very realistic. So it's quite interesting actually when you think about it, that actually even Death Mountain, it does have its accuracies. But I suppose in terms of inaccuracies, a giant mechanical gecko causing a volcanic eruption is kind of not realistic. Yeah, so I'm going to try and have my go now. How many cards? Let's see if I just draw one card. I have one card. Ooh, I got a goal. So with that, I put over the current goal card, don't I? That's right. Yeah. Oh. So this is the great thing about table-tapier. It's just... Rob, get in there and clear it up. So it depends on how you like to play your game, whether or not you like everything to be like Aenly in one place or not. We could... Rob, we could put the old... We could put the old goal card into the discard pile as well. And then what I'm going to do is so everyone can see the new goal, I'm just going to snap into it. So before we go to Chrissie's turn, I've had another question here from Rowan. And Rowan wants to know, is there any place for sharing games? I have one, but I'd like to see others, especially where assessment papers, et cetera, have been published. So, Chriss, I guess your turn as well. Please introduce yourself a little bit more about your research. And he said both a little bit. But maybe you could also talk a bit about games for Geoscience and how Rowan and others could use. This is a platform for sharing their games as well. Yeah, sure. So, I'm Chris, I'm a research fellow at the University of Hull in the Energy and Environment Institute. And I specialize in numerical modeling of flooding and geomorphology. So, geomorphology is how landscapes change upon processes of erosion and deposition. I'm interested in how those two things interact and feedback on one another. My interesting games is because I think computer models were used at games. They all used similar sort of codes. They have similar kind of structures, but the end goals are different. So, they're kind of, I think they're the same thing on the same spectrum, but their end goals are different. So, there's areas where they do interact. So, kind of the, there's water flow models in Minecraft or city skylines and things. And behind some of those codes will be physical laws, which is the same as what we're doing in our computer models. So, kind of interested in how that comes about. So, the games for geoscience, what we're trying to do is set up a network. So, we've done a few sessions last couple of years at EGU, we was at AGU last year. And we're trying to build more of a network, get more people involved and more people are interested to kind of come together. And we're trying to find ways that we can share those games. So, we've set up a Discord server at the moment. There's only about six of us in there. So, it's quite quiet at the moment, but we do want people to come in there at the moment. So, at the moment that's invite only because we don't want to kind of just invite everybody. And we want to make sure it's people who are interested in both geoscience and games in there. So, Chris, maybe people could find you on Twitter and ask for those details. What's your Twitter handle, Chris? Yeah, so, if you wanted to DM me on Twitter, it's at Flood Skinner. Or if you want to email me, you can email SiriusGiogames at hull.ac.uk, as well. And I can put a link to that. Or just do a Google search of Chris Hull Hawaiian. And you'll pretty much be able to find all of his details online. Yeah, so yeah, it would be great. We really want to build a network, get more people involved and get more games being developed out there. With kind of a geoscience feel as well. So, I'm going to try and do my turn now. And I've got a question is why have I only got two cards and everybody else has three? Because you're such a good player. I thought that the system would automatically handicap you. Twitter, Twitter, Twitter, Twitter. Just grab another one from the flip stack, I guess. And then take a fourth. Take a fourth, yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool. Okay. I'm going to play my keeper, which is a big foot. And there's no rules in place at the moment, is there? Okay. Great. Thank you. So it's thrown back to my turn here. So I'm just going to start off by drawing a card. And what we're going to try and do throughout the rest of the evening is basically play the game, but really just have a bit of a chat about games in general, about we've been introduced to each other's research. What's been really cool is I thought I kind of knew everybody's research, but I've already found out loads of more interesting things already. And I don't know about anybody else, but I've already learned that apparently giant mechanical lizards aren't responsible for high-repressing events. You know, you live something new every day, right? But I'm just kidding. It's very important to know. So I'm going to, okay, so what I've drawn to the cards here, I'm going to play one of them. I'm going to play a new rule. And the new rule is going to go, I'll just show what that is. So basically, this means at the moment, you can't have more than four cards in your hand. If you do, then you've got to discard them. Now, as we said, table topi is just a sandpit. There's many other virtual spaces that exist online. We thought that we'd pick this one because it's quite accessible. It has free entry points, et cetera. So I'm going to basically throw this over here. And that's just to remind everybody if in the future, you ever get to a situation where you've got more than four cards, then you need to throw that away there. So we've just had a question from Clementine. Also, I have to apologize in advance about two things. One, I'm obviously English, so I have a very poor command of language, which means that I will mispronounce everybody's name. So I apologize about that in advance. And secondly, I've been incredibly rude. I just skipped over all the honorifics of our esteemed panel. I mean, we've obviously got Dr. Alfoot, Dr. Chris Skinner, Dr. Liz Lewis, and Dr. Jasley Scarlett. But I've just been throwing everyone as Jasley, Chris, and Ron. So apologies in advance about that. Everybody's really esteemed. Everybody's really esteemed on the panel. So we've had a question here from Clementine that says, what recommendations do you have to games to play long distance with friends? So what I'm going to do is, it's Liz, it's your turn next. So I thought maybe you could have a go at answering that question as well. If you've got any recommendations for how you play games long distance with your friends and my turn, your turn, Liz. Thanks. Well, my absolute favorite game to play in the whole world is Dungeons and Dragons, as Chris mentioned at the beginning. So I love it. It's so low tech. I think that's one of my favorite things is that you need a pencil and a bit of paper and your imagination. I think we should do a survey of each of you members and what and what classes and races they used to play. There's been so many people, even like dinosaur professors that I talked to that they were like, oh no, I used to be a dwarf fighter. I was like, is everyone in Geoscience some kind of D&D player? I think it's a lot. So Liz, what tips would you have for people? And I'm really interested to know how you've kept your D&D going in the pandemic. How have you managed to do that? How have you found a virtual solution for a low tech game, if such a thing makes sense? Well, it's actually helped it, I think, because everyone's had to be at home. They're kind of looking for things to do. I've actually managed to be able to get all my friends together to play one. Yeah, so, I mean, we've just been doing it over, like, kind of video chat, basically. And it's really been a very theatre of the mind. So no, like, maps or little characters or anything. Just having a really, my brother's been DMing and so he's just brilliant at it. He's so funny and does all the voices brilliantly. So, like, I don't really need much more than that, I think. Yeah, so it's, yeah, just been really good to do. And, yeah. Oh, Liz, can you tell us what you did? What did you do? Oh, yeah, sorry. I was trying to slip it all past you. Yeah. What else is like, chill, Liz just wants to win this game. That's all she tells about. I'll gratefully accept this turn of events. I played a new girl, Bats in the Belfry, because all I've got is a gold card. Okay, cool. So now we've got Bats in the Belfry. So anybody plays the bat and the castle as keepers in their hands simultaneously, they'll win that game. So, Rolf, have you got any thoughts about, basically, how you're continuing to play games online? I know you, for example, like Mario Maker and things like that, but have you found that the current situation encourages you to play more or less games as you've been doing a lot? Honestly, in my particular situation, I think it's different from everyone. We need to acknowledge that. I have a small family over here. And we've been playing a lot of tabletop games and board with our core family, like with my wife and my little boy, which has been amazing. We've done a game of lowlands, which I can highly recommend for everyone that wants to look at the interplay between tragedy of the commons and mercantilism, which is something that we did just this afternoon. But my interaction with people outside of my core family has diminished greatly because I just don't know where to find the time. And I think we need to recognize that a lot of people will experience something the same. I hear the same from a lot of my friends. It just takes so much time to keep up with your research, keep up with, well, each of you in this case. And in my case, and I think a lot of people at my career stage will echo that, keep up with my teaching. That suddenly became online. That after eight plus hours of screen time on any given day, I kind of like to look at physical cards at a tabletop and actually look at my family members. So my gaming time with people that are not living together with me has diminished ever since we've been locked down. That's interesting, Rolf, because I know it's a fact talking to Chris that his way of relaxing is to watch eight hours straight of Rolf Hutt. That's how it is. Just put your TED talk over and over again. It's the same six eyes, the same six minutes. I used to be a thinker. No, no, so, but I teach a course at Delft University and has completely moved online. We have a new YouTube channel. We've suddenly set up a new Discord server, because that's what all the young folks keep using for communication. So apparently we are joining in, which I think is really good. But like I said, after eight hours of looking at these two screens, I really love enjoying some time with the people that are right over there playing a game on an actual physical table. And Rolf, what are you doing in your turn? Have you taken it yet? Or are you going to talk us through it? No, no, but I'll talk you through it. Let me take my turn. Because everybody needs some help. Oh, I need a draw card. So I'll draw one, draw one. So just as Rolf's doing that, just to let Martin know, we have got your question and we're going to address it after Rolf's taking his turn. Oh, I'm going to annoy everyone. I'm going to play a new rule, which says that the current hand limit is one. And at the end of your turn, you have to discard everything except one card. So I will now discard the skeleton, which I don't care about. And the old man. Oh wait, I have to zoom in. Come on. There we go. And then I'll end my turn. Rolf's made the game really fun for everybody. Thank you, Rolf. So Jazz, we've had a question for Martin. And if you can answer the question directly, great. But if not, maybe just pick up slightly different. But Martin's asked if anybody's made scientific Mario maker levels yet. So in Super Mario maker or Super Mario maker two on the switch, if they've made scientific levels, I guess Rolf, if you've got an answer to that, that would be great. And then Jazz, maybe you could also think about are there any games that you've thought about modding them for a scientific environment as well? And what are the, you know, I guess, what are the skill sets? I guess some of the difficulties in modding video games are that you require such a high level of software skills, unless you're looking at something like Mario maker, which encourages or like little big planet, which encourages people to actually have that maker level. So Rolf, have you come across any Mario maker scientific levels or made in yourself? Well, I'm from Delft University for Technology, which is an engineering school. And we always have a very lively discussion between the distinction. If there is any between engineering and science. But I've seen a lot of people implement really cool stuff in Mario maker that that are is really cool showcasing engineering. I'm not sure if that's showcasing science, but people have made calculators like binary calculators. If you like, you put on switch blocks and binary, it makes a number and then you take a shield, throw it down somewhere, and it will generate the number of coins. That is the sum of the two numbers that you just stuff like that. People have been doing. And I what I like about these restricted designer games is that it always brings out the best, I think, in people. I remember when the first edition of Little Big Planet came online, which was, in my opinion, the first console game that included a level editor. That was one user friendly enough that you didn't need any coding skills and two had the soothing voice of Stephen Fry to guide you along. That nothing's better. That people went wild and within no time. I mean, I made Tetris within Little Big Planet just to show that you can. And I think so I know I'm not sure if that's science, but I'll leave that to the jury. And I think absolutely having the constraints in place really can help read innovation intervention. Jasmine, have you come across any like examples, like, like I say, in those kind of environments in which science has been used or utilized at all? So I'm not really into that many kind of those kind of games. But that sounds like I should play Mario Maker. But for me, for example, I'm currently playing like a lot of people animal crossing. And, and like, for example, I've created a little geology chemistry lab in my house. So like, there's loads of different fossils on the chemistry set. Jazz, can you just tell everyone what your Twitter feed is, Jazz, please? All right. So potato is at scarlet underscore Jasmine. Because Jasmine's Twitter feed is so funny. Like, everyone's Twitter feed is great. But jazz is basically just like animal crossing is my life. This is, this is, this is why I hate this person in animal crossing. This is why I love this person animal crossing. So I can't tell you how much joy your Twitter feed brings to jazz. Oh, well, I'm glad it brings joy to someone. So yeah, but then like, I was just thinking, for example, just sort of like, like the Sims or SimCity, you can just those sort of games, you can just, it's definitely more about thinking more creatively, how you kind of make something that is your own. And those kind of games definitely, it's not obviously just scientific, but you can make it however you want. So if you want to do that, then most of the time you have the freedom to do that. If you can't do it, but want to do it, there is actually help out there to do that. So for example, quite a lot of games on Steam Store, they have the workshop and that's where you can download mods and stuff that people have actually already created for you. Yeah, so like even complicated like RPG kind of like games, there is like mods that they'll modify what you look like or add some sort of weird kind of thing that you wouldn't think would end up in an RPG. But I suppose kind of the best game in terms of science for me is the Portal 1 and 2. Yeah. Because that's physics and it's a puzzle physics game and like I love it and I remember being boggled, the mind boggled me quite a lot with some of those levels. And actually I've actually on switch of download is a cheap game called Turin Test. So yeah, and actually that's like it's kind of similar to the Portal where you have to, it's like physics and like thinking of how to get through a level. Jazz, I have to say as well, like the fact that you're quoting Portal as a realistic science game is like I love because obviously getting one of those guns. So I teach freshman physics and the amount of discussions at the coffee machine about so these people are now 18, 19 years old, they just come out of high school, the amount of discussions they have about the actual physics of how the portals work. So does it keep momentum or does it keep energy? Yeah, yeah, yeah. How is articulality maintained? What about relativity? It's amazing, not because of the actual physics involved, but because of just people with a certain skill set having a discussion about it. It's amazing. So Hazel's putting everyone's Twitter handles in the chat. Jazz, as you think about your turn, Chris, I just want to throw to you quickly because actually you take your turn, Jazz, and then I'll throw to Chris with a question as a follow up to this that's basically thinking about like modern games to make them scientific because I know that you do that in a really interesting sphere, Chris. Jazz, do you know roughly what you want to do to talk us through or draw a bit more time? So I just want to talk to cars because I actually had no cars, but I've got to keep a car so just deciding which one to put down. I can't remember what was our rules in terms of what we need. So at the moment we've got the rule is bats in castle to win the game. Oh, oh, wait, I have the castle. Sweet. That's my go because it's only used one and have one in the hand. So I think that's my turn. Thank you very much. So if you end that turn and then we'll throw to Chris. And Chris, the question I was going to ask you, which Segway is really nicely from that previous point, was just basically you do a lot of amazing work in the virtual environment and creating virtual landscapes for people to experience floodplains, to experience forests. And that obviously requires a certain level of technical ability as well. How easy is it for somebody who's interested in like using, I don't know, software like Unity, for example, encoding their own environments like that. And how did you get involved in that process as well, Chris? Okay. I have to say the development is paid for. So we use developers, computer science students and graduates are like magic. So I had a go at Unity. Unity is a gaming engine. So it's kind of an environment software environment where you can develop 3D games in there. It's quite intuitive. I managed to get a voucher for £30 to do a tutorial online for it, but I've got about two sessions with it before. It was making a 3D platform game. And we had to kind of match up the platform. And every time I span it, it was like an Escher picture and all over the place. My brain just does not have that 3D modeling point of view. So we actually use developers for that. So we try and do a series of studio games. Incorporate the actual environmental models of data that we use in there. So Flash Flood, which is our main game, puts you into a river valley as it floods. All that terrain is built from a laser scan of an actual river before and after flood. So it's all built. It's an actual environment, even though it looks like a computer game environment. So we're trying to do that. And I think it's that intersection where the two kind of meet. And I think that kind of comes from my interest in games as well as my research. So the games I play are kind of football manager and city style. So I spend an entire day answering an answer email as a football manager. Good man. I use Chris's Flash Flood and a lot of my outreach work. And people absolutely love it so much. I think you show them the virtual reality headset and they get so excited. I mean, this is what I was trying to talk about earlier. It's just like, if you can capture someone's imagination, the hardest that I find of kind of like doing outreach work in museums or schools or things like that is actually getting people to dare to approach you. So if you've got something bright and shiny and flashy or, you know, just, you know, something cool that they've not had a go with before, it really just draws them in and makes everything else so much easier. And when they've got that headset on, they absolutely love it. And, you know, people can barely believe that it's like real data. And then I go like, this really happened. I want no way. And I think it's important really effective. Chris is absolutely, you know, downplaying his achievements and ability. But I think what's really important is to think about as with science, you know, with games, you don't have to have all of the skills yourself. And so what it can encourage you to do is to collaborate. And, you know, there's no point like Chris was saying, there's no point teaching yourself from the ground up how to use something like unity, whereas you've already got all your skills as a geomorphologist or as a geoscientist or, you know, or historian or whatever. It's then working with people who have the same skill set. And games are a great platform that enable us to do that. Chris, I've got a question that I'm just going to prepare as well from Nicholas that all of us can think about answering. But are you going to talk us through your play? Yeah, I've got to get rid of three cards, haven't I? So I've got to play one. I've got one here which is called rotate hands, which would require us all to exchange our hands. Please don't do that. Legistically, that's going to be a nightmare. So I'm going to discard that. Just because we haven't been able to play it. What's this one do? I can swap keepers with someone. Yeah, I do that. Actually, I'm not going to tell you how to play the game. Play a goal and then keep that one. Okay, so let's put the play goal into the discard pile then. Okay, cool. So as you're doing... There we go. Right, so when you're ready to end your turn, do so. But basically we've had a comment from Nicholas, which is a great comment that I don't know if anyone's heard of Dreams before, but it's this new video game on PlayStation 4 that enables you to create your own world and video game. It looks amazing. It basically looks like a video game in which you can create dreamscapes and landscapes using tools that are only limited by your creative abilities. So that looks like a really great game for people to check out. And also, Rowan's got a question that I think I'll direct towards Chris first. And then maybe Jazz and Liz and Ralph, you can have a think about it. And as you're doing that, I'll plot my next move. But basically the question is from Rowan, how do you find the money to fund the transformation to digital games? So I guess we can even have that as a broader question, Chris. Is there any money to make games in the geosciences? How do they get funded? How do we ensure that everybody's paid the right amount, et cetera? Are there ways in which we can do that? So however you want to answer that question, Chris. So the first game we had was, again, called Humber in a Box, which kind of merged our hydraulic model that we used to estimate kind of sea level. Look at the sea level horizon floating in the Humber. It merged that into Unity. That was actually made by computer science students. So our computer science department in the hall. But they're four-year masters students. In their final year, they have to do a project where they work as software developers for, you know, they kind of pretend to be software developers or actors, software developers. And anybody in the university can propose projects. I've proposed them that game as a project. We have three fantastic students who built that game for us. Kind of, you know, begged and borrowed to get the kit to be able to run it. And because of that, that kind of gave us a platform where we could go to other people and say, look, we've done this game previously. We could do one for your project. So I was working as a postdoc on a sort of, funded by the Natural Environment Research Council in the UK. It's the Flooding from Intents rainfall project. And they had some knowledge exchange funds on there. So I managed to get the funds from that to get flash flood bill. And then from that, it's kind of rolling. It is difficult. There's a lot more we could do if we did have more money to do that. And it's quite expensive game. So I guess, absolutely. So I'll just throw to Liz first and then Rob to you. So I guess one of the ways in which Chris, you're suggesting, which I think is quite effective as well, is working with students to do this. Liz, have you got any thoughts about how we can ensure that, you know, the students are properly accredited, that we're not just using them as cheap labor, but, you know, rather we're working with them as collaborators. Because I know that you do a lot of work with your students in outreach, for example, as well. Yeah. So, I mean, I've not had anybody kind of design a kind of like a computer game or do any coding that way. But I always have people coming to help kind of when we're doing outreach sessions. And what I like to do is have, you know, like quite a variety of different people come along and kind of to show the different faces of being a scientist, because I think, you know, people still seem to have kind of a fixed image of what a scientist is like. Yes. But I think kind of letting people have free reign, it can get quite chaotic. So I like doing kind of lots of really hands-on games. So we've got this one, which is kind of like a giant plunk that we do. And we're just like balls flying everywhere with these little kids and stuff like that. So, yeah, there's a lot going on. It could be quite exhausting. So I like to bring cake. Thanks Liz. Roth, I know again that you do a lot of work with your students. Have you got any thoughts on this? Like using students, like working with students rather than using students. No, no, no, using students. Yeah, exactly. It's the right wording that you've got. So it depends on what you really need to be careful for is like you said, using students as cheap labor. That's not what they're there for. However, if you're in an institute that offers a wide variety of disciplines, then basically going back to education, what's the learning goal for a particular course? And there are learning goals within our computer science and informatics department where as Chris said, some of his students just need to get the experience of building something like building some package of code for a client and then you can act as an internal client. We just say, this is what I want. Go share yet you make it. What I do want to warn everyone about in this sense is not all students are going to be A level students and their main reason for them doing it is their education, not your project. So you need to, you need to make sure that you act as someone that's supervising them to become better at what they do, not necessarily demanding that they deliver the best result product. Of course, you need to stimulate them to do that, but not everybody's going to be able to do that. And I think that's a tightrope that you need to be really careful about in the way you do that when you employ student labor, which is not a term that I like to use. The thing that, the thing that I do in this case is to make sure if you look at it from a project planning point of view, you usually have this golden path or the red line or it depends on the project management guru, you're following what it's called, but there's usually this one line of activities that is essential for your projects. Do not involve students on that critical path. Make sure they're on tangential paths that are really awesome, that they can shine in, but that it doesn't hurt your project too much or your project too much if they're not excelling in that. And make sure that your critical path just has funding. So you can hire people to do, actually do it. Okay, so hopefully that's answered the question, Rowan, but you know, it's really important that the funding streams are definitely out there. Places like the National Environment Research Council in the UK have dedicated public engagement grants. Otherwise you can work with larger grants like Chris has done in the past, like all of us have done, I think in the past, working with those other PIs saying, look, we've got some expertise in terms of knowledge transfer in terms of public engagement, in terms of learning and teaching as well. And that's a great way of jumping on their projects, kickstarting it, developing your work as well. So one of the questions that's come up as well is just if any equivalent of dreams exists on the PC, there's definitely I think going to be a version of dreams to come onto the PC in the future. But if not, there's loads of sandbox arenas in which you can do this kind of thing. The other thing is Minecraft as well, right? I mean, I'm just going to leave that hanging out there. Jazz, do you want to maybe speak on Minecraft briefly? Yeah, so Minecraft, it's obviously been going off years and a lot of people have been playing it. I mean, I used to play with it with my brother and it's just, it's, yeah, you can create whatever you want. I mean, the good thing about it, what I like is you can create volcanoes. So, because obviously there's lava and there's obsidian. And what's really cool is that I am people I have spoken to have used Minecraft for outreach. They usually come in with, oh, has anyone played Minecraft? And like most of the kids put their hands up and they said, oh, do you know what obsidian is? And then all of them know what obsidian is because it's in the game. And obviously then that's how you can go in and be like, actually, this is a volcanic glass and they talk more about what it is. And of course, equivalent is that, as anyone heard of dragon glass from Games of Thrones, they'd be like, yeah, so that's actually obsidian. So like it's a way to relate what's happened in games to make it relatable to people because some things can be a bit tricky to explain. I mean, if we didn't have Minecraft, a lot of people wouldn't know what obsidian was unless we go in to try and explain that that is a type of glass. So Minecraft, I mean, it's amazing we can do Minecraft. Insane, insane things. I mean, if you have the time and dedication, you can create amazing things. And there's also quite a lot of publications in the area of how Minecraft's been used for exactly that. So I know everybody's dying to see how I'm going to take my turns basically. I'm now going to play a new card, which is draw two, which means that every single time now everybody needs to draw two cards, but remembering that we're discarding down to only one card in our hand at the moment. So I'm just going to discard this card properly and I'm going to discard this card properly. And then I'm going to end my turn. And Liz, feel free to have your go. And Liz, I was just thinking as well, you know, Rob made a, Rob's, Rob tried in the Zoom chat at a meta level just about tangential learning. Do you think that when you've been playing games with your students, this has been a good opportunity for tangential learning to take place around that particular subject? As Jazz was talking about as well, this idea that by playing Minecraft, you know what obsidian is or rather you know what dragon grass is because we all know that that's the correct scientific term for obsidian. And have you experienced that tangential learning yourself? Yeah. So I think Minecraft's one that comes up all the time. So a lot of what I do is hydrological modeling. And basically when I show a kind of image of the model that I do, it looks just like Minecraft. So I think it's really helpful for people to be able to visualize what I'm talking about. And visualizations are a really important thing anyway with kind of trying to communicate research as well. Yeah. So I think that's being able to relate stuff to what people do every day. And even just in kind of the language that we use as well. So one of my fun facts is that like if you've got all the rain gauges in the world together, they take up less space than a football pitch or something like that. So just every day life that people know about is just really, really effective. And it's kind of sticks in people's brains better, I think, because it's related to something that they already know. Yeah. So that's very effective. That's amazing. That's a great statistic. So if you added up all of the world rain gauges, they wouldn't fit into a football pitch because there's actually the center strip. There's actually the center circle of a football pitch. Okay. Wow. That's great. There you go. I think Professor van de Geesen in our group started like calculated that and used it as a statistics to push for why we need more rain gauges on the ground. Way back. Something like 10 years ago. I think it's actually the center circle. Lisa, can you talk us through your turn? I think that you're like absolutely wanting to win this game so much. Yeah. I'm crazy. I drew my two cards and I'm going to play one card, which is a new rule, which is a hand limit of three. So we no longer have to discard to one. So we can just exactly. So you put that just there and then if we can, somebody can just discard the one that says hand limit of one. That'd be fantastic. So that's great. And then you can end your term whenever you want to Liz. I have to get rid of her. So you need to make sure. Yeah. Exactly. Thanks. Yeah. Exactly. So we now have to have a minimum, so a maximum of three cards in our hand. And then once you've discarded that in the discard pile is, I'm going to throw to, you can end your turn and then we'll throw to Ralph. So Ralph, as you're thinking about how to play your turn, I just like you to pick up a little bit on tangential learning. And in particular, maybe you could talk briefly about how, what the Zelda paper that you mentioned at the start was, and maybe you've shared this on Twitter and Hazel house as well. But what, what really the purpose of that was and how games can be used for good and for ill in terms of tangential learning. Well, the thinking behind that sell that paper was that I was playing the actual game. I've been playing the Zelda series for, well, I think I started with links awakening. No, a link to the past on the 16 bit any Super Nintendo. But I was, I was playing the game. And I realized, so there was like a mountain. That had a waterfall. Sorry, jazz. I'm a hydrologist. Not a full conologist. It's okay. It's okay. So I just, I just saw like a real big mountain that had a waterfall that originated very close to the top. And it rains in the game on occasion, but not enough by far to feed whatever groundwater layer is above the source of that waterfall to feed it. So there must have been some negative. It actually was the Greek way of looking at where water comes from. Like there must be some pressure coming up from below. So I was just looking at that. And then wondering if anyone else that hasn't got a training in hydrology, it's watching this. But they pick up on the rule cues about where waterfalls come from. And then I started doing some research into it. Has anyone actually looked into this? And I came across that term of tangential learning, which basically means you're learning something. While you're focusing on something else. And I think most of us has have had probably negative, but have had experience with games you were forced to play in primary school. This will really learn you how to read. This will really learn you how to calculate. And then the game itself just wasn't fun. And the idea with tangential learning is that first and foremost, you design a very interesting game. And then secondly, make sure that there's elements in there that if you start thinking deeply about them or start looking them up on you, even the names of sorts in Final Fantasy could be considered tangential learning. If you just start looking them up, there's a whole world of actual world knowledge behind it that you suddenly are aware about. I mean, everybody knows that when you play through the God of War series, that's not what the actual Greeks thought about how their gods dealt with each other. Rob, can I just ask to bring you a little bit back on topic, sorry. Because I should also preface this by saying, Rob, whenever I ask you for a question, could you do as brilliantly as Liz and Jazz have done and be succinct? So basically, Rob, think about your answer there, but Rob was talking about this idea of tangential learning and how it's a really important way and how we should all actually be thinking about how we can be inspired from the computer games and the games we play and think about how we can use this for research as well. So Rob, talk us through your move. Yes, I do want to talk about tangential, right? I'm going to play a new goal. Like I said in my previous turn, I like this game because it relates so much to science. So we are going to discard all of these goals. Why are there multiple goals? That's not how it's supposed to be. So we're discarding all of these goals, and I'm playing the new goal. I was working in my lab. So anyone that now has a bad scientist and a laboratory is going to win the game. Thanks so much, Rob. I'll end my turn. And I guess actually this comes back to a point that Liz, you were talking about earlier, maybe you and Jas to pick up on this, and I say that because Chris, Rob and myself are all white men who have been associated with science and who are maybe associated with this picture here, maybe not to that extent there, but Liz, you talked a lot about the outreach work you do is reimagining and renormalising what scientists look like and who science is for. And I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the work that you do in that arena and how frustrating you find images like this when we hear about a scientist as well. Feel free to vent. Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, I think it's getting better. And I think kind of for kids, they learn and adapt really quickly anyway. So I don't think it really takes much to nudge them in the direction. But basically, I think lots of people kind of, if you love science, then that's great. So you're kind of naturally inclined to kind of think about how scientists are an engineer. Lots of the people that I talk to kind of say that they do enjoy science but they don't really think it's for them. And so what I always try to emphasise is that it's not really like about being a genius at science. And it's more about like having a burning curiosity and just being really interested in the world around you and trying to answer questions. And maths is really helpful. I was always really furious that no one told me that maths was so helpful. So I tried to encourage people to do maths. But yeah, I think just I, it's kind of difficult because I think the best way to do it is to have lots of role models and kind of showing people that I'm a scientist and here's my friend Selma who's also a scientist and stuff like that. But that obviously puts kind of a bit of a burden of work on to you. But it's fun, so I don't mind. I think that's a really important point. And you know, there's a lot of research that's been done around what we should be doing is, and again, I don't want to mansplain this all, but this idea of rather than inviting women, people who aren't white men to talk about being not white men in science, it's instead talk about your research. And by doing that, that helps to re-normalise what scientists sound, what scientists look like. Jaz, I know that you help to co-create or co-curate a really cool Twitter collective as well. Maybe you could talk a little bit about that so people can get involved with that group as well. Yeah, so it's called the, the Twitter account is called Minorities in STEM and it mainly focuses on people from different ethnic backgrounds in the UK, even though there's lots of followers elsewhere in the world. And for that is, the general premises is that just to show that what kind of science is done in STEM from a diverse range of people, just to show that, yeah, again, it's not really, it's not all just white men or white women that do STEM as well, it's also if there's other ethnic minorities that also do STEM as well. And yeah, it is, I do enjoy that account. It does take up a lot of time actually, because you've got to think about what you've got to say and what not and try and engage the audience. But it's just a way just to make it more visible that it's not just one certain type of scientist you can think of that does these sort of things. And in particularly in Jewish sciences, the ethnic minority is kind of underrepresented. So I still think this and I hope someone out there can prove me wrong, but I think I am the only woman of colour volcanologist in this country that has a PhD currently. And that's like, it doesn't really fill me with pride really. It kind of makes me feel kind of upset really. It's like, well, why am I the only one what's going on? So that's why I'm really interested in like intersectionality in my research and in my teaching as well. And just the fact that it is important to have the diverse role models because students, if they don't see you, then how are they going to know that you exist? And it's the same with the kids as well. I mean, I remember I would do some outreach in a local school and obviously the classroom was filled with mainly white boys and girls, but there were a few that were different ethnicities as well. And in the end, one of the students said, oh, when I grow up, I want to be just like you. It's like, oh, that's so sweet. And it's just like that's, you know, just seeing someone and doing something exciting with them, it can leave a positive effect. And certainly using games as a way to start that conversation is a good thing. And yeah, I think we need to use games more just to start the conversation, find a way to do outreach and using games is a very good way to do that. I think. Absolutely. 100%. And do you think as well, though, that sometimes, and like I'm speaking from my own research here, that sometimes there's a danger with games that we assume a certain level of literacy. So, you know, when we think about our science outreach, which everybody in this chat is really, really good at, we know that we've got 10, 15, 20 years of scientific experience. So we, you know, we grok or we use jargon without thinking about it. So we have to really carefully check ourselves and think about what the average five-year-old and the second, no, people don't know what the average five-year-old unless they're Rob's son doesn't know what fluvial dynamics is, right? So, you know, we need to think about that. But do you think that there's also the same with games? So like when we say to people, hey, let's play games together, we're assuming that there's maybe a high level of gaming literacy that they have. Like these are great examples, right? Like D&D such an awesome game to play and act like the people who've played it for a long time, like Rob, like yourself, like me. It's, it is quite an easy game to pick up, but there's still that barrier to overcome, isn't there? And we need to maybe assume that there isn't, we need to at least allow for the fact that there is that level of gaming literacy that people need to think about. So let's think that I think a lot when I design games for my outreach friends. And basically I want to have something that works for everyone. So it, which sounds bad, I think. And yeah, you know, you're supposed to have a target audience or whatever, but that's kind of the opposite of what I do. And because especially kind of, I do a lot of my work in museums and you just don't know who's going to come through the door. So what I want to have in my game that I design is something that will be fun for, you know, like a toddler all the way through to an adult. So like my giant plunk one is a good example but it's like people will just, so that's to kind of demonstrate like natural flood management. So the sticks in it are the natural flood defenders and they're holding back the debris in the water, which are the balls. And then we've got a town at the bottom. And for the very little kids, it's just about being in a museum and having fun. And they just like playing with the balls and the sticks and stuff like that. And then what you do is you tailor your explanation of what's going on and what the aim of it is to the level that you're interacting with. So you can have a really detailed in-depth conversation with an adult. You have, you know, trying to clear up all the balls that they've made a mess with. And I think that's something that's kind of difficult when you're doing games. And especially if you're trying to incorporate it into your research, you know, some people. Absolutely. And just to follow on to question from that as well, from Stacey, we've had a question. And Jazz, I'm going to ask you this and then I promise I'm going to let you finish your go, but it just touches on something that we were asked earlier. So Stacey wants to know, you know, thinking about science and using people, using animal crossing to curate items and do psych-on. So, you know, there's been a lot of cool questions. There have been a few cool articles recently about people using the museum space and animal crossing as a way of doing that. And, you know, do you think that's a good environment to maybe think about psych-on? It was our question to me. To Hugh Jazz, yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's just actually kind of related to, so at the conference earlier this year, I actually took my switch and took Legend of Zelda and then actually got them to play it. I mean, most people that played it have never picked up a switch before, so it was actually quite entertaining just to see it learn how to use it. But it's like, yeah, if you could give some people something tangible as well, that can actually help as well. And yeah, Animal Crossing is a really interesting example where you have this museum space and you're collecting fish, collecting insects and collecting fossils, and now you're collecting art. And yeah, the different people in these disciplines, they actually are using that space to talk about what is there and the origins of it and whatnot. I mean, I actually have a friend who is going to be using their game as a zoo archaeology kind of psych-on event. So they're actually going to be looking at the fossils because their PhD research is on a fossil that is in that museum in the game. So they're actually going to be using that as a way to just visualise what it looks like and then using the game to explain it. And it's all like a different fun kind of way just to use the game really, and any game, for example. Cool. Thank you, Jazz. So, Jazz, after that, your ghost taking in is taking in intersectionality, it's taking in Animal Crossing, it's taking in so much stuff. But can you please take your downturn now, Jazz? Yeah. Okay. So I picked up three. How many am I putting down again? Just one. Yeah. I've lost count. How about... Oh, what's this one? Random tax. This is an action. Can't actually see it though. What's it saying? Oh, I can't... As Jazz is doing that, just at a meta level for everyone else, what's happening to me, the questions, because when I hover on my Zoom chat, everyone else can see that we're talking about stuff. So that's why I've got a question for you next, Chris, coming up once Jazz plays a turn. So, Jazz, what are you doing? I can't see the text. If you hold it, double click on the card or press spacebar on it, it should zoom in. Oh, spacebar. Oh, there we go. Okay, so random tax. Take a card at random from the handle, each other player, and add these hands to your own hand. But then I have to discard them though, don't I? Anyway. But just do that. That's going to be quite fun. Do it. Okay. I don't know where I'm putting the action, but there it's going. Okay, so how do I take a card from you guys? So I will give you a random card of mine and put it on the discard pile. If everyone else does the same, I think that's probably the easiest way of doing it. But does Jazz get to choose which card she keeps? Chris, I had one card left. But Chris is right. Jazz gets all the cards that she gets to play, play, play zero and discard her hand and just keep one. Yeah. Oh my God. If everyone just discard it for now, Jazz will tie it. Jazz, you can end your go then whenever you're ready and we'll just tie it up that area. And okay, cool. So Chris, as we're tightening up the milestone that Jazz's turn has created, Martin's got a question for us and he says, aren't using games just a form of target and engagement? You're tailoring science to those that have the gaming interest and specifically the game of your choice, which is a really important question for us to answer. So Chris, feel free to take it away. Yeah, I think it's definitely key thing for what we do. So our games are meant to be in a kind of public space. So we take science festivals, we take them to other types of festivals and public events and kind of the reason we use the games in that format make it look like games because they're really popular. Millions, well, billions of gamers, something like 2.5 billion gamers around the world and there's even people who probably don't identify as gamers or gamers. So my wife plays Crossy Road for hours on her iPad. She would never call herself a gamer because she's playing a game. So it's a really, really popular format and if we're not tapping into that as science communicators, then we're really, really missing a trick. So Chris, do you want to talk us through your go? Yeah, I need to take... We're drawing two, aren't we now? Drawing two and a little bit. And then, Rob, maybe you could have a little think about that question as well. So, you know, this idea of are we just targeting people who are, are we targeting the already engaged or is this a way of opening up new audiences? Well, I think this also relates to engaging with diverse audiences or minority audiences and different social economic backgrounds. What I'd like to do in these situations is to go back to the very basic of communication science where you look at who's your target audience what is the message you want to get across or the change that you want to have across with them and given those two, what is the ideal medium to achieve that change in that audience? So if your audience is the general population of a certain area and your message is evacuated now because you're going to flood in two hours, then your ideal media is driving through the street with police sirens on and blasting it. But if you just want to do more subtle things, raise awareness of climate change in populations that are not normally exposed to climate change research, then you may have to realize as a scientist that you may not be the actual best medium. So because the scientist itself or the one doing the communication is part of the medium. And sometimes you just need to realize you need to step back and hand over the message to someone that has attenuation with the actual audience you're trying to reach. Absolutely. So again, this is using everybody's own skill sets as we go. Sorry to interrupt, Ralph. I think the viewers will be desperate to know why Chris ended his term without talking us through what he did because basically I feel like Chris and Liz are playing the game. Everybody else is trying to engage. So Chris, do you want to talk us through what you did there? Yeah, I had no cards in my hand at the beginning of the term. So I played one, I played a gold card. There wasn't a gold card in there. I think someone had discarded it. So now it's just changes what the game is again. I think it's the lab card. In the lab, we're still in play. Both Ralph and Liz were halfway through meeting. We've got reanimated flashes, the new goal. So it's my turn now. So we've had a really nice comment from Clementine who says that really good point, I think. Yes, maybe games are reaching slightly already engaged audiences, but surely it's better than a scientific display. That's quite a nice comment. And then a really cool question here from Anna. Rowan put a really good comment where he basically said that there's much sheep are more common than women on board game covers, which is horrific. And so wanted some examples of board games and video games where there is diversity. So if I could start off like pandemic, the game, which is obviously very prescient does a great job of like the front and foremost person on the box is a female scientist, which I think does a really nice go with that. There's also a really good word is depressing. Sam. Okay. Okay. Sorry. There's also a really cool game, a tabletop game that I'd like to make people aware of called legacy of dragon halt. And it's a bit like a choose your own adventure type game. But what's really cool about it is that within the game, you can take on the role of LGBTQ plus people, but it's done in a really, really like normalized way, not worthy or not drawing attention to it. So these are completely normal relationships. And it really helps to renormalize it. So legacy of dragon halt is a really great game to enable people to do that would be my recommendation. Maybe we can go around as I'm thinking about what term to play starting with Liz, then maybe jazz, Chris and Ralph of examples of games, board games or video games where there's good representation either on the cover art or in the actual playing of the game itself. So Liz, maybe we could start with you. And apologies on my behalf as well. Rowan's a she. I did the thing of assuming that Rowan was a male. So I'm sorry about that. I know God, I'm horrible. Sorry, genuinely sorry about that Rowan. So yeah, Liz, if you've got some thoughts on that, or if not jazz. Yeah, I'm not sure. I mean, there's a board game called and fog of love, which is about kind of more, I think it's about, I think they call it like rom-com in a box or something like that, but you can be anything you want to be in that, I think. And it's all about kind of the story of your relationships. So that gets quite into. Yeah, I guess. That kind of exploration of what your character is. But no, I was trying, I'm just looking at my board game pile. D&D list, right? I mean, D&D, you can be anything. Oh yeah, D&D is amazing, obviously. You can be anything. Yeah, I'm there. I'm there. Yeah, it is. Well, one, it is amazing, but we have to acknowledge that it wasn't until, I think third edition, where the representation of female characters in Blade's armor was actually played armor. It was horrible before. And there's more role-playing games than just Dungeons and Dragons as well. So I played a really good one the other day that's called Microscope, which is basically like inventing a whole history. It's really hard to describe, but it was basically, you choose kind of one defining moment in the history of a civilization and then you kind of work out what happened before and after that moment in history. It's just really clever and really different to anything else that I've played before. So that was really good. Anything really where you get to use your imagination to come up with it, then it's really you that's putting the limits on it rather than someone designing a box. And Jazz, have you got any good examples that can help to normalize this in the videos or tabletop? Yeah. So obviously I definitely more of a video game person and I do like my role-playing games. So a good example I would say is the Mass Effect series. You could choose to be a female or male and then on the online kind of like competitive mode versions, pick if you want to be a different alien as well. And what's cool with that is that you're free to choose different kind of relationships where you want to be with an alien or with same-sex kind of thing. And like those kind of games and then also, well actually quite a lot of role-playing games you can choose to be what you want to be and you can dress up how you want most of the time. So like for example my friend, we play Sea of Thieves online. So it's not really a scientific game but with that is he's a man but he likes to cross-dress so he likes to go around the dresses and that's kind of the things where you can decide who you want to be and how you look like. I mean I'm currently playing Assassin's Creed Odyssey and yeah I'm playing as Cassandra as opposed to Alexis. So I'll play as the female character as opposed to the male character. So those kind of games you can pick and choose but in terms of science I guess the most recent one that kind of relates to science I suppose would have to be the Tomb Raider series because you play as a female archaeologist essentially and that's badass. I think she's amazing and I have been described as like a Tomb Raider of Volcanology for some strange reason but I like it. So yeah so with some big games you can choose to be who you want to be and play out the way you play out that story. Obviously you are confined to the main story mode but then you can in between that create your own kind of version of it. That's great, thanks Jazz. So I'll just quickly I've got another question to Liz because it's her turn next. But just to show you what I did in this in my turn I played this card so we've got a new goal the ghost of Bigfoot so whoever has the keepers the ghost and Bigfoot wins the game. End of my turn now and we've had a question from Dorian Liz and Dorian asks about even like games themselves can sometimes be quite intimidating but what can also be intimidating is the challenge of finding people to play those games with you. I wonder if you've got any advice about how you've gone about doing that. We could maybe think about some of the stereotypes that people associate with gamers being introverted even though we all know that's not necessarily the case but certainly how do we get over our own inhibitions how do we find people who are willing to engage with us in that sphere or how do you do it? Yeah I mean that's kind of my way to smile through things and acknowledge that you know like the stereotypes of some things like to just go on about Dungeons & Dragons all the time but it's them and I love it so much and it's so fun but then you tell people it's like yeah Dungeons & Dragons are amazing and like you're the biggest nerd ever and it's like yeah I am assigned to see face Dungeons & Dragons and like sitting at home and reading sure that's true but also I don't know sheer enthusiasm is my way of getting through it What about you Chris do you have any tips for how you find people to play games with both either in a well I guess virtually in an online space really at the moment? I'm a massive introvert so my way of unwinding is not talking to people so I play games where I don't need to communicate with anybody so that's why so football manager I would spend hours playing football manager barely not even lock up until my wife throws something at me Skylines I would spend hours playing city skylines and it's but yeah it's like I like to play games where I don't need to communicate with people but I have not been the right person to answer that question Okay and so Liz maybe you can talk us through your turn and then I've got a question for Ralph to bring us into Ralph's turn as well there I've just played an action card that says destroy all monsters so anyone who's got a monster keeper has to discard it Well I don't I discard nothing Who's this over here Chris? My laboratory is in here I don't know if it's a monster It's got an eyeball on it Well hold on I've got an eyeball I'm not a monster Jazzy's tautology Jazzy's tautology of monsters Does it possess an eyeball? If so yes So Ralph as we're coming on to your turn I've got a question from Sam So Sam identifies as a Yorkshireman i.e. it's me and this question basically is if you were to think of games that you've played recently that are related to the geosciences in some way that aren't obviously monster flux Are there any games apart from like Zelda Breath of the Wild that you would recommend for people to play either directly because they are directly involved with the geosciences or indirectly as well tangentially Let me get back to the previous answer I gave on a question where I said it's really about who do you want to reach what do you want to achieve etc so it depends on what the community is you're playing this game with and if they're what they want to get out of it So we're playing Ticket to Ride a ton with my little seven year old and he's just learning the places in Europe and the names of these places and how to pronounce them and it's amazing which is also geoscientific knowledge I guess but then again one of the other games I mentioned earlier we did a game of lowlands this afternoon which has a brilliant mechanic where everybody is just building their own farm but at the same time you also have to invest actions into building a little dike that protects all of the farms of all of the players so it has the whole tragedy of the comments built in it's amazing it's kind of involved I advise it for people that have played a few board games already so it's but it depends on what type of knowledge you want to get out and if you just want to stroll through a beautiful world and in the meantime get something of this is the way mountains can look or this is the way deserts can look then a game like Breath of the Wild is amazing I think it's the mindset that you enter into a game what you will get out of it is really that just pop into my head which brings me to my third so I'll finish it quickly and Chris have you got any games that you've played recently or that you're thinking about playing what you've heard about that are actually quite good or that have GeoScience maybe at the core of them there's a game we got around Christmas time because we were thinking of using it in a forest space in the other part case which is our outreach activity but we were actually having a discussion about this on Twitter brief Chris and so photosynthesis which is a really beautiful game you have card trees of different sizes and the idea is you have to plant the trees and as the sun moves around the board you gather energy which allows you to plant more trees my issue with it which is the reason why we didn't use it in the exhibit in the end is because actually you get the victory points by chopping the trees down and we found at the end we had a really sort of sparse forests in the suns going through it's last cycle everybody's rapidly chopping down as many trees as they can so it's quite interesting games which are not designed for communicating issues but covering the theme sometimes they have a goal which is not quite what you want but did people mention the Lorax at some point but I think Chris is well the point Chris can you as well could you possibly tell me jazz is it who's turn is it Chris's turn or Jazz's turn Rolf could you tell me through what you actually did in your turn please Rolf oh yeah of course I just draw one card because I had nothing in my hand and the card I draw was a hand limit tree I was forced to play one card because of the weird rules of flux so I played it and the card that I have was a hand limit too so I discarded hand limit tree and now hand limit too is in effect which doesn't matter because nobody has cards in their hands so just a reminder keep a limit of four hand limit of two and draw limit of two so Liz I'm wondering how you've got three cards in your hand but I'll let you sort that out in your own time so I have to disregard to play one the pick up one yeah exactly exactly jazz so if you pick one up and then make sure you've only got one left in your hand I think two left in your hand sorry getting confused now ok so disregard guys ignore what I just said you're drawing two playing one oh my god oh my god ok drawing two writes I have six cards now um I guess I've got play one you're drawing seven oh what what no don't confuse me so what am I ok I'm just playing one now ok what is our current goal current goal is the ghost of Bigfoot so the ghost and Bigfoot both in play ok I have a ghost so I'm putting that down oh I recently played Fibitian Island which is like pandemic but it's about flooding so trying to get off an island that's flooding so that's quite uh yeah hydrology focus that I like but also I think any game that kind of has a trade off kind of element to it is really good so I think what people struggle about with climate change so a lot of my research about climate change is um you know understanding the how policy decisions are made and you know like limited resources to do things so I think anything where you've got a bit of tension of being like oh well I really want to do this but I don't have the resources to do it and it's quite good for kind of opening those discussions as well and yeah great so and so jazz can you just talk us through talk us through what you've done and then discard down to two cards please so I just put down ghost keeper because goals to get yeah but then so I need to discard have two left did you say yeah two left and Liz I think you need to discard one of your cards Liz because you've got one too many at the moment not that it really matters so as we're going we've also had a great recommendation on YouTube chat about Kerbal space program as a great example of a geoscience game communicating space missions and then Chris it's your turn so I'm just going to ask you this question for Martin a great question which says should science-based games made to engage or communicate be free I can just start off with that by saying that I think that in the tabletop arena you can definitely make games for free because you can have print and play games for free for example the games two recent games I designed Carbon City Zero and the Catangloba Warman expansion both available as free print and plays and then if you want to you can buy the actual like premium version but having the print and play version at home is a great way of ensuring and engendering that dialogue and making sure that another limitation of games doesn't come across people which is that they can cosmonate you know Jass was talking about using the switch we're talking about virtual environments we're talking about some tabletop games cost hundreds of pounds so Rolf I'll come to you in a bit Rolf but I just want to throw this to Chris first so Chris what's your thoughts on whether science based games should be free in order to that are used for engagement basically I don't think there's any I don't think there's any moral obligation for the game to be free if they're going to cost you money to make then I think you kind of have the right to be able to make that money back if you put your creative some expertise and time into that then you should be able to make a profit but if the goal of your game is to get people playing it and to share a message it seems counter-intuitive to put a barrier in place in place of that but also a lot of our games are kind of funded by public money through research money so I think we do we do try and make all our games as free and as widely available as possible I don't think there's any obligation to do that that was very diplomatically answered Chris so Rolf I've got another question I'm going to ask you if that's okay Rolf but first of all I'd like Chris to explain what he's done on his go I haven't done anything yet well Chris I'm going to hurry up so you tell me I've got a Geo game print and play one which I think has the best title of the game ever it's called Geologically Challenged Haunted Hayride at Hank's Hen Hattery so like a free play game nice that sounds awesome brilliant so Chris you're going to talk us through that go and then Rolf I've got a question for you please if that's okay okay so I drew two and I played a keeper which is angry mob of villagers and apparently with this if I have this on the table join my turn I may move it to another player and discard one of their keepers don't you dare don't you dare oh that is oh oh we're not friends anymore Chris I'm not going to lie Chris that's quite naughty yeah let's go over to my big foot so yeah but that's not me what have I done Rolf we've got a question here from Melina and this is a really a good question for all of us actually but Rolf I'm going to direct it to you first with the concept explaining a game sometimes can be more difficult than presenting research I think that's definitely true for all of us who have tried to explain games to people but the question that Melina's got is how you can develop good moderator abilities as a scientist and I have to say that I've been on several panels where Rolf's been the moderator, Rolf is a really excellent moderator so Rolf like would you like to share like some of your tips and then maybe we can throw to you this as well as to how you can develop good skills as a moderator that's for Melina please yeah I think that's a brilliant question that I struggled with a lot I want to come back briefly to Chris statement about should games be free which kind of ties into this a little bit what we should make sure is that science communication isn't free if we value science communication as an essential part of our jobs then we should make sure that either our institute usually universities recognize that and it becomes part of our jobs that we're rewarded for in our career track and what not but if they say well no you should just do research publish papers and your science communication is just a hobby and you do it in your own time then I cannot fault you in any way if you want to have some money for the games you design as your science communication activity ideally of course I want universities and institutes to recognize that designing a game that communicates science is a worthwhile pursuit for a scientist as part of their job so having said that can I just step in and say that Roth just gave a great example of how to be a good moderator in science by basically not answering the question that you don't want to answer going back to your previous call that you want to answer and making it look so seamless also vote me thanks for that and I guess to you lot as well Chris you do a lot of moderation especially and what I'm really interested in is other people being interested in this you identify as an introvert now I know you reasonably well and I love hanging out with you I think you're super fun but for someone who is an introvert you do an amazing job of moderating loads of different like exertions loads of different initiatives how do you tally the two of being maybe somewhat slightly introverted but also doing a great job of bringing people into the conversation of moderating that I think a good example of how I do that is if you look at our main activity Flash Flood it involves putting a headset on someone and then they have a voice over and there's no eye contact so I've made an introvert science communication project but I think it also it comes into how I want to do science communication because like when I was a kid I went to a science festival hall that was massively intimidating for me and I wouldn't have wanted to go up and talk to a scientist at a stand I would kind of stand back and listen into someone else's conversation so kind of when I'm doing activities I kind of want something where someone can approach it without having to talk to someone and get into the material without trying to make it accessible to someone who is introverted that's great thanks Chris so I'm going to throw the same question to Jazz but Jazz first of all I'm just going to take my turn well I'll show you what I've done so all I've done basically is add a new goal so our goal now is rest in peace so you need either the tombstone you need the tombstone with either the ghost or the skeleton oh for God's sake Chris I do not like you so it's Liz's go first Liz can you answer that question Liz this idea because you do a lot of work as well as with moderating and maybe actually can I ask this question how have your skills as being a DM a dungeon master because you're a great I've heard you be a dungeon master how have your skills as being a DM helped you in moderating as well because I would think there's quite a big overlap between the two yeah I think that what really helps me as someone who is also quite introverted and people don't think that I am which I really find baffling I think when I have a defined role that really helps me so it's my job as a DM it's my job to make sure everybody's having fun so that gives me a real focus on trying to do that and the confidence to take charge is the same with moderating stuff so I think things that can give you the confidence so like lots of preparation when you're running dungeons and dragons but also having a plan like when I moderate workshops and things like that I plan it to the minute like what's going to happen so having a really detailed plan of what you're going to do and then just the confidence to be able to do it the most amazing thing that I ever saw in moderation was I think I was at AGU and I was standing in line to ask a question and the moderator stopped the really old man who was one logging asking a question in front of me she was just like thank you so much for your comment but I'm going to stop you there because there are too young women behind you who don't normally get a chance to speak at events like this so she like I mean that was incredibly brave I was like oh my god I've never seen that before acknowledging and explaining what she was doing but she just like went in with the confidence to be able to do it, had a good reason and then I got to ask my question and I was just stunned so yeah yeah Thanks Liz that's great I know that again there's been a lot of research I read a paper last year where if you are the chair of a session, if you encourage somebody not your traditional male white scientist to ask the first question then it encourages a more diverse group of people to ask the subsequent questions as well so I know that when I chair sessions that's something I try proactively to try to do and maybe that's something that other people who are moderating sessions or chairing sessions could do as well so Liz would you be able to talk us through your term please if that's okay How many did I draw? Yeah you're drawing two at the moment Draw two Yeah I thought we were drawing one I think I played the draw two card again Amazing So as Liz is thinking about that I have No please don't apologise I don't know how other people feel about this but like I don't cheat in games but what I do do in games is I will bend the rules without the other person knowing if I know that it can be their gaming experience Right so what are you doing now? Am I that transparent jazz? It greatly enhances my enjoyment of this game that I can see your hand on Zoom Sam But yeah that's something I definitely do With me I like to play the game as normal first and then once I've completed the game I go back and add in mods and cheats and stuff just to see how different the game would be if you add these stuff in That's how I do it I complete the game first and then if I in the multiplayer game I'll actually add extra isn't Jazz are you 100% kind of person do you have to get all the platinum trophies Oh my god I am such a completionist it's bad It's really bad It's bad so like currently How many Koroks How many Koroks do you still need I just need like 8 more and I don't want to look them up I think I've got like 10 more and I'm like I know where they are but it's really annoying But then also I just don't want to look them up I just don't want to go online because that feels like cheating to me Yeah I would say Liz maybe you can talk us through if that's okay and then Rolf I can provide you with the question as well Set a new goal of the ghost in the castle Hold on So whoever's got the castle and the angry mob of villagers which I believe is jazz you're halfway there jazz Yeah but I had a ghost for someone Why haven't you ghost jazz Yeah I've only put that down just to stir the pot So Rolf is your turn now and Rolf how do you feel about cheating in games Is there ever a place for cheating Let me unmute myself I think this ties back to what Liz said about being a great moderator or not It depends on your role I'm known as an extrovert and I shout and whatever I feel comfortable in a room depending on my role If I'm being put in front of 150 students and people tell me you're the teacher then I feel very comfortable just kicking them out if they start chatting too much or because that's my role at that point and if I'm being put in front of a panel as a you're the moderator then I feel comfortable in just saying very old dinosaur professor could you please shut up this other person now needs to have a question But if I'm like a regular person in a room that's not the moderator I would never feel that and that ties back to cheating in games If I'm to DM I'm the god in the universe I make the rules If I throw 20 then it could also be a 16 if I want to But it all serves the purpose of why we're there which in this case means it serves the purpose of making sure that everyone's having a good time which also ties back to the moderating a session or being a teacher as a teacher it serves the purpose of making sure that every individual student with their individual needs who reach the learning goals as a moderator I need to make sure that the communication from the panel gets to the audience that the audience gets a fair amount of questions in and if that means breaking the normal rules for moderating a panel I will gladly do so it's the same in my classrooms and the same in my Dungeon and Dragon sessions but if I'm the player in a Dungeon and Dragon sessions I wouldn't dare throw a dice throw a four and just pronounce critical hit to my DM Okay, so that takes me on to my next question have you thought about your go by the way Ralph or it's going to be complicated here we go so as you're thinking do you know what you're going to do I know what I'm going to do, I just need you all involved do it Ralph because the card says I'll put it on the table for everyone I have to play everyone gets one which means count the number of players in the game including myself draw that number of cards if we play a one card you decide who gets one so I get to draw four cards if I'm right yeah that's correct five cards as you're doing that can I just have a huge virtual handshake for the rotating screen shots virtual backgrounds in Chris Skinner's background he's going for about 30 virtual backgrounds okay so this is the one I actually played so this one goes on here I have to give this what's the goal I get to play this what's the actual goal at the moment the castle I'm going to give this one to Sam that's not me I'm down here not in my game but I'm still purple I believe I'm going to give this one to Liz I'm going to keep the play three to myself I'm going to give the zombies to Chris this one's yours I'm going to give the cauldron to Jazz thanks I always wanted you're on cauldron there you go I completed my turn here we go okay thanks so much so Jazz as we come on to your turn now and we've got like 10 minutes left of this conversation so please keep the questions coming in in the YouTube chat we also need to accept the fact that even if we were to continue playing this game for five hours nobody is going to win let me reiterate we're playing a game that on the box says takes five to ten minutes so Jazz a question we've had from Melina here is do you again riffing on the idea of cheating do you like losing like in games and how does that change maybe you know I know that you like playing a lot of like solo games but you also like playing a lot online games as well like World of Warcraft like online type MMORGs or MMRPGs how do you feel about losing in general in games so for me I'm like I'm okay with it because from that it's for me it's kind of like learning and adapting to situation because sometimes I can like die in like five in like five rows doing the same thing and we're like no I need to change my tactic here I mean classic solo pool yesterday when I was playing Assassin's Creed Odyssey I died three times in a row because I was approaching a camp the same way and I was like no I'm obviously doing this wrong I need to approach it differently so in terms of like losing we have a game where like it's not game over and you can actually restart I use losing or dying in the game as a way to learn I think that's kind of a good thing to do in a game if you have sort of room like oh you did sorry wrong but you have the chance to redo it to understand where you went wrong and then to change your approach so that's kind of like so for me I'm like I'm okay with losing just in general I'm not that really a competitive person so if I lose I lose I'm not bothered I'm like well I took part that's what counts so like for me playing solo yeah I definitely it's definitely learning from my mistakes learning from other players is learning from mistakes and turning on players don't do what I did because you will die Thanks Jazz there's some chat coming through as well and this is so true that basically Rolf I'm going to come to in a sec but basically the YouTube chat has said that some people have played Flux for five hours and no one's won and I think that's definitely true as well so Rolf I'm going to come to you for your answer to that question but first of all I'd just like to let all of our panellists know we've got about seven minutes left so what I think will be really cool is can all of you just be thinking about a succinct piece of advice you'd like to share with people in terms of how you can encourage others to use games use games in GeoScience whether that be in teaching whether that be in research whether that just being hanging out and using GeoScience games and I'm going to ask everyone for that question and Chris I'm going to finish with you asking that question so then you can also talk a little bit about the GeoScience games network and the legacy of GeoScience games going forward first of all I'm going to throw to Rolf Rolf you're going to ask answer the question about how you feel about losing with a GeoScience twist I hate losing games but I well I recognize that in a lot of games that have a GeoScience twist in the current age that losing it might be part of the communication strategy of the game designers if in lowlands you do not cooperate towards the common goal all your farms will flood and the experience may not be too great and you can think about how you should do differently but basically it tells you you need to cooperate to battle this common problem together in pandemic if the entire world succumbs to the disease you've done something wrong and this is something that can actually happen so while I hate it I think it can be a very valuable learning opportunity and that can be a very valuable communication opportunity and I Rolf thank you for that so we've got five minutes left so basically this is what this is what's going to happen okay everyone's going to have a minute to sum up to just contribute one thought but as we're doing that I'm changing the rules of flux whoever can find whoever can find the zombies card first wins okay so as we're looking at that song that's the new rule of the game whoever can find the zombie card wins so basically as we're trying to oh my god Chris what's that one oh that's a vampire I think Chris's would already so well done Chris so I just like to remind everybody so my final thoughts are just that games are great they're a great way of establishing dialogue it's really important to make sure that we remember everybody and that we don't leave people behind as we're playing those games we think about everyone's needs we think about everybody's experiences and we think about what's available to everybody I'd just like to also remind everybody that there's loads of short courses on YouTube for EGU so please do check them out and I'm going to throw to each of you Chris finishing with you so Jazz have you got any thoughts that you'd like to just final thoughts you'd like to share about this session please I think like whatever kind of games you like playing or whatever platform or whatnot it's just kind of questioning that maybe even the rules or just like the environment you're in if it's like more immersive environment because that's how I like started thinking about oh is this actually an accurate representation of a volcano so it just start just like questioning what you see or what the rules are Thanks Jazz, Rolf, 20 seconds I've been going around in this session a lot but this whole corona crisis is one of the most challenging times for most of the people that I know and I think that if you come out of this don't be sad if you don't come out with a new skill or with a new degree or whatever if you just come out of this game with everybody still loving you you're a winner in any definition that I can come up with Thanks Rolf and that's a really important message there we're not like nobody should be expected to write Leah or discover gravity just be safely good to yourselves and love each other Liz any final thoughts Yeah I guess for me games and science work together because they're both kind of problem solving which is the core of what we're doing in research and also for communication it's just about associating something fun with something science and it's really hard to measure the impact of that I always think that it's just creating a good association for someone that could go on to do great things later Cool, thank you and Chris before I come to you I just want to thank Jazz, Liz, Rolf, Chris and also Hazel who's been doing things in the background to get in this session going thanks everyone so much for such an enjoyable chat Chris final thoughts please I'd also like to remind you Chris to remind everybody about the Geoscience game session and about how to get involved with games for Geoscience and then it's up to you Chris to basically say goodbye and end the recording in two minutes time take it away Dr Skinner Thank you all for being part of the trying to play a game of Flux today and for the chat and thanks everybody in the YouTube chat for contributing and sending us questions hopefully we'll see you involved in sessions in the future so for my final thoughts I want to return back to what we originally wrote when we first proposed the games of Geoscience session I think the true power of of games really it puts you into and you can see the world and make decisions from a different perspective and I don't think there's any other medium available that can do that so for me that's the real true power of games it's been able to show people a different part of the world a different point of view so with that we have the games for Geoscience session tomorrow I think at 4.15 I should have this written down really but CET CET so that's central European time so and that's free on EGU so if you go to the Google EGU20 and you navigate to the final sessions search for games for Geoscience you'll find it there at 4 o'clock CET tomorrow the chat will be open you don't need to register anything now you just put your email in and agree to the code of conduct and you can participate and see all the amazing talks that we've got in there finally for the games for Geoscience we want this to be a movement for you we've got sessions at AGU so looking for teams to kind of cross the Atlantic to kind of take that on and build that and also there could be other conferences and meetings that we could go to we could also eventually have our own meeting as well we've got our Twitter so go to Geoside Games on Twitter or DM me at floodskin or send me an email to seriousgeogames at hall.ac.uk send you an invite to so just thank you all again this has been a really good experiment that I don't know if you guys fancy doing it again at some point yeah why not we'll look at doing this again maybe making it a regular thing and we'll get different guests and we'll play different games that we can find so if you're interested in being involved do let us know give us suggestions for games but that's it from us so enjoy the rest of the conference and we'll see you in Vienna next year bye