 Y next item of business is a member's business debate on motion number 195 in the name of Liz Smith on accessible Hospital transport in Scotland. This debate will be concluded with any questions being put, can I remind people in the gallery that Parliament is still in session and this is a debate proceeding? Could I ask those members who wish to speak in the debate to please press the request to speak buttons now? Rwyf i chi fod i'n ei ddweud o'i gael i gael i'n ôl i'r bobl sydd gennymodol? Ie, Liz Smith i chi gael i'r bobl sydd, Liz Smith, 7 ples,ariswg, that are important to them, but there are local bus routes too and especially those which provide vital links to hospitals and to medical clinics. These bus services are essential to the quality of life, the physical and mental health of patients and of course to their family. Indeed without them many Scottish communities would struggle, especially in age when there is so much pressure to merge acute services. The situation was made plain in a letter from one of my constituents. Due to complications from recent surgery, this lady is required to travel from Perth Royal Infirmary to Ninewells Hospital in Dundee on a very regular basis. In the past she would have used the 333 service. However, since the withdrawal of that route in November 2014, Stagecoat each Scotland has extended an existing coach route, the X7 service that runs from Aberdeen to Dundee to Ninewells and now on to PRI. Although Stagecoat is offering a new coach, which in some instances provides a higher quality of service, for many people with mobility issues such as my constituent, it is leaving them behind. For example, there are only two seats on the downstairs bit of the coach, both of which are often in use by other passengers. As she suffers from chronic arthritis, my constituent struggles to climb the stairs and she claims that the driver is not in a position to help her when working by bus. I am going to say this again. I cannot hear the member speaking because of the noise from the gallery. Sorry, Ms Smith. Please go ahead. I know that my colleague Alexander Stewart will say more in his own contribution because he has been on this case for some time, as have other councillors across the political spectrum. People who have visual impairment or those recovering from orthopedic injuries, those with heart conditions, or simply people who find it difficult to negotiate the stairs on a moving bus is a very genuine concern that the buses are badly designed for the hospital link route. On top of this, the new 750,000 coach is unable to turn properly in Perth Royal Infirmary as a turning circle that was designed for the buses were those that were in use for the old 333. Stage coach offers a low-floor alternative in the 16 bus, however this bus takes one hour and 13 minutes in comparison to the 45 minute journey provided by the X7. For someone as my constituent who has been on obviously a very difficult road with her treatment, then it is a very difficult situation indeed. However, the story of that constituent is not just a single case because there are dozens of similar stories from across Scotland. In August of this year, there were other problems for five passengers after the changes to the 77 service between Gouldry and Ninewells hospital. The alternative service, which will terminate at Dundee bus station rather than Ninewells, is forcing passengers to change buses and it's been branded awful by some of the local councillors. It's prompted a raft of complaints from constituents and indeed from many in the medical profession. The X42 route connecting Cooper and Ninewells is also under threat with a proposed alternative service also terminating at Dundee bus station. In Glasgow 2, we have seen the closure of the G1 and G2 bus services from Maryhill to Queen Elizabeth hospital in March. In Falkirk, the first bus services, X86 and 24, which provide vital access to the 4th valley Royal hospital for local residents, have also been cut, leading community council members to label the cuts completely unacceptable and directly affecting the elderly, infirm and those who do not have a car. In the borders, the council funded 71 route from Hoyke to the borders general hospital was cut in July 2014 leaving Hoyke residents without a direct bus to their nearest major hospital. In Aberdeen, first group have threatened to end the X40 and 11 services from Kingswells to Aberdeen Royal infirmary, a move which local people there claim will leave residents of the suburb without access to their hospital and causing them to miss important medical appointments. When these cases are put alongside each other, there is a worrying picture of Scotland, one where communities in particular older people are feeling abandoned by transport providers and cut off from very essential services. Whilst it's heartening to see in some local areas that have been sub subsidised bus services for older and infirm residents now being offered by Transport Scotland, an excel example is that Strathclyde partnership for transport. There are a large number of our elderly and infirm who face routine trips to visit their GP who are experiencing daunting and exhausting trips on buses. A weekly check-up can become a four-hour odyssey requiring multiple changes at different bus stations. For older residents this can prove far too much, particularly at times of distress, sometimes of bereavement and of course in poor weather. Nor is this an issue just limited to the elderly. Non-drivers face equally challenging experiences to get to and from hospital. Centralisation has meant that many hospital appointments no longer take place in local hospitals, so this results in longer and more costly journeys being required. It's often difficult for people to get a bus from outlying places to get to the hospital. It's been many cases impossible to visit inpatients in the evenings and that makes the bus companies put in a very difficult position. For example, the first bus to Livingston from De Firmol leaves at 9am and the last one back is not till 5.40 in the evening. Buses are a lifeline for rural communities and I think there is a common agreement across this Parliament that there needs to be increased support for community schemes by extending the free bus pass scheme to community transport. Otherwise, far too many people become victims of a very patchy national strategy, which means that access to local hospitals is even more difficult for those in need. This is not a party political issue, but I do hope that the Scottish ministers will give this a lot of consideration and I'll move the motion in my name. Thank you very much and well done, Ms Smith, for persisting. We will deal with this on another occasion. It's not fair to members. I call Foothley Greger, pleased to be followed by Brian Whittle. Thank you, Presiding Officer. First, I'll let me thank Liz Smith for bringing this important subject to Members' debate. I agree with the first part of the motion that is put forward. Bus services to and from hospitals are used by a variety of people. As Liz Smith says, they are used by the most vulnerable in our society. Lanarkshire, my area, has three major hospitals across the region and on occasion members of the public need to be taken to one which is not perhaps their local in order that they receive the most appropriate and expert care. For example, I had a query recently from an elderly gentleman who had been taken for emergency treatment to hear Miles Hospital. He reports being taken to the hospital promptly and treated well by staff. However, when he recovered and was later discharged, he found it extremely difficult to get public transport back to his home and co-bridge. There was no available family to collect him and he eventually consigned himself to getting a taxi. While he was satisfied with the level of NHS care he received, he was worried about what someone who would not be able to afford a taxi would do in his position. You will note that by describing this example similar to what Liz Smith had said, I am in agreement that there is an issue with transport which can affect constituents from time to time. However, I do not agree with the notion, the second part of the motion, that the Scottish Government has not taken appropriate steps to address the issue or that the Scottish Government is somehow solely responsible, although I do note that I do not think that Liz Smith was entirely saying that. Yes. Mr Bayby. I think it is fair to say that the Scottish Government has not acted appropriately. Since 2007 there has been no new bus legislation and we are in danger now of having the weakest bus laws in the whole of Britain. After the bus services bill Westminster gets passed. Mr McGregor. Well, I thank the member for interjecting there, but if he lets me continue, I will go on to describe how a local issue in Lanarkshire has been dealt with by a number of stakeholders and I am sure that the Minister will sum up a lot of the stuff that the Scottish Government has been doing. So, in terms of staying with my local area for a wee while, during the recent NHS Lanarkshire Health Care Strategy consultation, the issue of transport between hospitals for visitors and patients was raised in many occasions. In fact, I think it was one of the most widely raised issues. For instance, in terms of the recent temporary move of orthopedics from Monkman's hospital, it has generally been agreed by all stakeholders including NHS Lanarkshire, the council and local representatives that public transport services could be better and more responsible for individuals. Presiding Officer, if you do not mind me digressing for just a second, I would like to say that hopefully there will be a decision from the NHS board soon on orthopedics being permanently at the Monkman's hospital and I know that many have engaged with the consultation process outlining the reasons why this service should be located there at the new-built hospital funding for which has been given by the Scottish Government. Feeling a good mood, so I'm allowing that rather wild diversion. Thank you, Presiding Officer, for that wee detail. So, be on the mind that there are many stakeholders involved in providing transport to and from hospital facilities. I contacted NHS Lanarkshire just yesterday and have been told that they are committed to the following. First, I continue to work with Strathlaid partnership for transport, as mentioned by Liz Smith, to ensure that each of our sites is supported by appropriate public transport links and to also ensure transport and travel information is available quickly and easily through the creation of a transport hub. Secondly, working with the Scottish Ambulance Service to ensure that they are able to support their patients and services in providing routine as well as emergency transport. Thirdly, for those patients who are unable to access public transport but do not meet the Scottish Ambulance Service eligibility criteria for patient transport, the NHS Lanarkshire will work with the community transport sector to identify how these services can help support patients. Presiding Officer, I've spent most of my time talking about a particular local issue in Lanarkshire and describing what has been proposed to address the idea, the issue of transport to hospitals. And of course, it is clear from what I've said that there is still work to be done and that is, of course, incumbent upon all local members, councillors, MSPs and MPs of all parties to try and help resolve the issues in their areas and come up with ideas and suggestions to all the various stakeholders. I firmly believe that the Scottish Government has demonstrated commitment to improving transport links and enhancing partnership working between operators and transport authorities. The Government will continue to invest nearly a quarter of a billion pounds a year into the network and improve services including around increasing passenger numbers and providing more environmentally friendly buses. There is also a desire to look at whether local transport authority powers can be further improved and what additional support and guidance might be helpful to them. To conclude, Presiding Officer, there is no doubt that bus services to hospital facilities can be difficult for our most vulnerable people including those who are elderly and or disabled. I commend the launch of the first accessible travel framework by Transport Minister Hamza Yousaf on 29 September 2016. I do believe this will improve the accessibility for all members of the public and strive to give everyone in our society equal opportunity. You could see I was thinking it was a very long conclusion. Brian Whittle followed by Neil Bibby, please. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. First, I thank Liz Smith for bringing this motion to the Chamber, giving me the opportunity to speak on behalf of the south of Scotland area constituents which has a large rural community. A decent, affordable public transport service accessible to all is something I'm sure all in this Chamber would agree is mandatory. Certainly regular bus services to and from hospitals should be a given. However, that's not always the experience users of public transport are highlighting. For example, in May, first bus proposed pulling the majority of its bus services in the border's region. In July, Scottish Borders Council approved plans to halft the number of buses running between Gallashields and Edinburgh. In April, south-west Scotland Transport Partnership abandoned plans to halt several Sunday and weekday evening services in Dumfries and Galloway. However, other services were still cut and campaigners were heard to say that of stories of people wanting to go to hospital on the bus, but were struggling. In 2015, the only bus linking Ayrshire's two acute hospitals was withdrawn by stagecoach. A doctor criticised the move saying, I have a morning clinic at air and an afternoon one at crosshouse and I don't drive. This bus is the only way I can carry out my work. When the bus was launched, it received a £20,000 a year subsidy from NHS Ayrshire and Arran. Stagecoach blamed a decreasing patternage and a further cut to the reimbursement paid to the bus operators under the Scottish Government's free concession transport scheme. However, it's not all doom and gloom, Deputy Presiding Officer. Last month, a new bus service was launched in East Lothian to provide access for local shopping, hospital and doctor's appointments in the area of Harrington. Lothian County bus 113, one best bus service in Scotland at the Scottish Transport Awards in Kinex East Lothian with Edinburgh and the Western General Hospital. However, in May, first buses proposed withdrawing from East Lothian, blaming an increasingly competitive market, but it appears Lothian buses managed to be successful in this area. Once this highlights, it's a fairly patchy picture and approach to public bus transport coverage in the rural communities, communities who require the same access to services as everyone else, Deputy Presiding Officer. It has already been aptly highlighted by Liz Smith and others in this debate the difficulties of the elderly, frail and sick when bus services are withdrawn. However, if I may draw the chamber's attention to another hidden problem in cost of a reduction in public transport accessibility that leads to travel difficulties, that is mistreatments and screenings that lead to missed opportunities to diagnose and deliver preventable treatments before the issues escalate. Into more serious, traumatic and yes, costlier treatment programmes. For example, higher levels of breast cancer in rural and the most deprived areas have been directly attributed to non-attendance at routine breast cancer screening. There are other examples similar to this one. This is an issue exacerbated when bus public transport links are withdrawn, making attendance that much more difficult. Deputy Presiding Officer, we appreciate that there is a balance between cost effectiveness and service delivery. However, there are cases where face value costs do not paint the full picture. Right to access of medical services, no matter of personal circumstance, is Parliament and I would suggest that it is incumbent upon the Scottish Government and this Parliament to ensure decent public bus transport is accessible and affordable to all and therefore I am delighted to support this motion. Thank you. I see members are just threading other things in tenuously connected but just in terms of the motion. It's alright. You managed to put it in. Neil Bibby to be followed by Alexander Stewart and Mr Stewart you were the last speaker in the open debate. Mr Bibby. Let me begin by congratulating Liz Smith for securing today's debate and for allowing us the opportunity to discuss bus services to and from our hospitals. I know from the views I've received from community representatives in Clydebank, for example, just how strongly people feel about the importance of having good public transport links to the new Queen Elizabeth University hospital without a direct service. There many people in Clydebank find that without a direct route it can often involve taking free buses. As the motion rightly points out passengers travelling to hospitals can often be anxious, bereaved or distressed. Presiding Officer, bus services are not a luxury that the private sector might choose to provide but essential public services and assets of real value to the community that the travelling public cannot do without. That is why it's been so disappointing to see the scale of the decline in bus services across Scotland over these past few years. The total number of journeys on Scotland's bus services have fallen to a record low. The rate of decline is ten times higher in Scotland than across Britain as a whole. Transport Scotland's own figures show that from 2007 alone bus journeys have fallen by 74 million. 66 million vehicle kilometres have been stripped out of the bus network over the same period. The number of buses and operators fleets have dropped by 14% over the last five years for which figures available and there has been a 5% contraction in the size of the workforce in the bus industry. Instead of achieving a modal shift towards public transport, the SNP Government has presided over a decade of decline in bus services. The bus market is broken and the SNP Government have shown every opportunity they have had been given to fix it. That's why the cutbacks referred to in the members motion come as no surprise. If we want to protect vital services to hospitals or anywhere else for that matter then I believe we need to consider more democratic alternatives to the deregulated market. To the credit the UK Government are doing this to some extent right now in the bus services bill. It's by no means perfect but let me be clear about that but it's interesting that Labour Liberal Democrat and the Conservatives now all support extending London bus bus franchising powers in England while Scotland continues to lag behind the regulatory curve. We could change that if there was the will to do so across the Parliament and I hope Liz Smith and the Scottish Conservatives will seriously consider the case for extending those powers into Scotland as well. We could give transport authorities the power to protect services to these hospitals and decide the best way of delivering bus services in their communities. When confronted about bus cuts in his own city including services that bring people closer to connections with the new Queen Elizabeth University Hospital the transport minister was keen to shift the blame for commercial operator service cuts on to SPT. Of course there are times when transport authorities need to step in but I say to the transport minister that with bus cuts from one end of Glasgow to the next his response to what is happening I believe in the bus industry so far has been inadequate. There was no recognition of the financial pressures his government has put on SPT's members authorities or local government across Scotland. There is no comprehension of the limitations that are placed on public transport authorities when they do decide to tender for a route. I don't believe there is comprehension of the scale of the cut backs operators have been making to bus services across Scotland. Remember the 66 million vehicle kilometres stripped out of the bus network come from across both commercial and subsidised routes. The public sector simply cannot afford to replace services at the rate they are being axed. So I say to the transport minister and the Scottish Government that their position on this is untenable. The old ways will not work any more. Something has got to change. If the main parties at Westminster can agree it's time to roll back or even replace the deregulated market then why cannot we? Surely the time has come for action to protect vital bus services. It's time to look at alternatives to the system we have now that is letting passengers down. It's time for London style bus franchising powers to come to Scotland and it's time to put passengers and communities first. Thank you Mr Bibby. I call Alexander Stewart please. Thank you. Can I note my register of interests as a serving councillor and also as the chairman of Access Cars, a patient group based at Perthrall and Firmry. I would first of all like to pay tribute to my colleague Liv Smith for securing a debate on this most afternoon. Access to hospital transportation and medical clinics is a vitally important source within our communities. I have had a particular interest in these types of services over many years in my role as a councillor within Perth and Canos Council. Many of those who worked at the hospital Perthrall and Firmry, which is based in my Perth City south ward, regularly had to go to Ninewells hospital in Dundee as part of their work to have consultations, clinics or even types of treatment. Prior to the establishment of the CC bus service, we had sometimes alludricous situations where from time to time medical staff, patients and even medical records were being taxied between Perthrall and Firmry and Ninewells hospital because there was no link on a regular basis between these two establishments. Moreover, time and again my council constituents told me that having to go to an appointment from a location within Perth it could mean changing three different buses to get to an appointment and having to get three different buses back home. For an elderly or a disabled person it could mean that a half hour consultation would take up their whole day and consume their whole day. The reality is that non-drivers face equally challenging experiences to get to hospital as do younger, non-disabled, non-benefit patients who usually have to fund these trips for themselves. It is not just outpatient appointments that cause the problem. If admitted to hospital it may well be the case that it is impossible for individuals to visit evenings and weekends because of the bus service being so eradic and there was not an opportunity for this to take place. An example of one of my constituents and her husband who are both non-drivers wanted to visit their son which meant relying on a family member and doing an 80-mile round trip each night and each day to ensure that they could visit him in the hospital. If they didn't do that they had the opportunity to maybe stay at a local hotel which could have cost them up £100 for that itself. Over the course of many years I have fought regularly and always to ensure that we would have some kind of transportation between the two facilities in Perth and in Ninewells, but it took eight years for that to become a reality. I could not believe that here on year I kept going back and asking the same questions. Where could we get the funding? It was obvious that there was an opportunity but it didn't happen. But eight years of myself fighting with others in the council it was achieved and I do pay tribute to our fellow Councillor, Councillor Willie Willson who did manage to secure with me that service. We achieved the support across the political spectrum together with stagecoach group and NHS Tayside. The bus service materialised and route 3333 became a considerable achievement and an outstanding success. I was extremely disappointed when the decision was taken to replace this dedicated hospital shuttle with the new ex-servant service between Perth and Aberdeen. Stagecoach have reported an increase in uptake in the new route but neglect to point out that it's because of the dynamic within the individuals who are using that transport and that sometimes has a conflict with individuals who are hospital users. As Liz Smith pointed out there are a myriad of problems that occur within the service. The inability for the accessibility within the location the double-decker coaches themselves have little seating on the lower deck and there is not even a dedicated ramp for individuals to use between the journey. It's not really a suitable bus service for individuals who have ailments and want to go to hospital. All of these factors highlight the need to have dedicated services going back and forward and if we have them they are used. We have difficulties in parking around hospitals but if you have a dedicated bus service that relieves the pressure on the parking around a hospital. That is not rocket science that is just genuine reality and it should be being managed on a daily basis across our sector. It has become clear from listening across the chamber today that the debate that we do have communities across Scotland that are facing exactly the same potential problems and they have to be recognised. So I'm pleased that there's been some consensus around the issues in the chamber. It's clear that there's a general desire to support the continued hospital network and transforming Scotland and I would say that we need to look at transforming schemes across Scotland and if that can be achieved then we'll go some way to do that. I do believe and I hope that the Scottish Government will take that on board. Therefore, in conclusion I'm delighted to have taken part in this and I very much pay tribute to Liz Smith for bringing this to the chamber today. Thank you. Thank you very much Mr Stewart. I'm nodding about difficulties in parking hospitals. I think that we all know about that. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I want to start by thanking Liz Smith for securing debate and for what I thought were very good contributions by and large around the chamber. I also want to thank her for the tone in which she made her remarks. I think that everybody here has highlighted problems locally and issues locally which absolutely go to the very hearts of their communities. I've been in this post now for about six months and all I have to do is look at my Twitter feed any time of the day, morning, afternoon or evening to see how most of people get about their transport. I don't mean that in a negative way at all. Transport is emotional. It's what connects you to your family, to your communities. It's what connects your businesses with other businesses. It's what helps to get your staff in or deliveries to be made or indeed is the difference between making that hospital appointment or GP surgery appointment or not. As Brian Whittle said quite rightly, it can have effects for longer-term health conditions if not preventative. I think that points are well made in that regard and I don't take that responsibility lightly at all. It's a huge issue for me. I want to try to spend the time focusing on some of the issues that were raised directly by members. Before I do that I'll just put on for the sake of the record the support that the Scottish Government gives to the bus industry. Many have referred to the BSOG grant £50 million a year and we're coming into that spending review period. I've felt the strength of feeling on this from bus operators but also from members here about the importance of that subsidy but also the £212 million funding that we provide for free bus travel for disabled and older people, which I hope are members across the chamber would recognise, promote social inclusion and has had those substantial health benefits in getting people to their hospitals and GP appointments throughout the years. Now to address some of the issues that were raised and I think well raised by members, particularly the bus services mentioned in the motion if I may, I thought that Liz Smith made a very important point about the X7 service in terms of accessibility. I launched the accessible travel framework which I think was mentioned by Gregor Fullton and perhaps other members as well and I was genuinely astounded at some of the stories I heard from those using public transport and I think we've come a long way I've got no doubt about that and there is legislation about low floaring of course as the member will be aware on single deck and double deck buses but still in 2016 some of the challenges people were facing with disabilities using our public transport for me was simply unacceptable so the first accessible travel framework which was developed by people with disabilities and will be monitored throughout that 10-year lifetime by those with disabilities I think is a huge step forward Yes I will in just one second the X7 point that I just want to make is that I'm aware that stagecoach is aware of the issues that she's raised they're working now with Max our mobility access committee and indeed with passengers with disabilities to see how they can retrofit some of their fleet of buses and coaches to make improvements but of course I'll let Liz Smith in I'm very grateful to the minister and I totally accept what he's saying there I think it's very important the other issue which I know is not a direct responsibility of the Government but I think Government influence would be helpful is when it comes to the practicalities of getting much larger buses into hospitals and to take up the point that my colleague if the bus physically can't get in to the hospital area that is a serious issue for many people I just wonder if the minister could encourage those who are obviously providing the bus services when he has his talks to think about that Yes I will certainly endeavour to do that and I think you touched upon a very important point about planning and transport working closer together we have of course issue be aware Government preparing consultation paper on planning and the planning review that will be an endeavour that all across Government will look to input into me as transport minister that's something I think I should feed back into that discussion on the services affecting Aberdeen which I mentioned I should say I've spoken to a number of councillors just yesterday a meeting with councillor Willie Young from Aberdeen city council on those services and on the services in Glasgow she'll be sure to know that I'm well aware of that the services to the Queen Elizabeth hospital that Neil Bibby touched upon and have made representations to first in particular about those should be said the Queen Elizabeth hospital I would say is well served by bus routes 60 buses an hour coming in and out of that hospital where they can go further on that I'm more than happy to have a conversation with bus companies I want to try to touch upon some of what Neil Bibby had discussed and perhaps the wider issues and challenges we face on our buses there has been a decrease and decline in patronage on the buses from if you'd listened to Neil Bibby's remarks you think they started with the SNP Government just to give you some context they absolutely haven't they started in 1960 and in fact the worst decline 1664 million passengers in 1960 through to 860 million passengers in 1970 that was the steepest decline of course when the buses were regulated so this is not an issue of simply bus ownership but what I would say to the member is that that decline has been the worst in Glasgow and the west now that's not to shift the blame to SPT I hope I haven't given that impression in the remarks and it's not to shift the blame even to Glasgow City Council or North Lanarkshire or South Lanarkshire Council this is an issue we all have to deal with whether it's national government, councils or regional transport partnerships the silver bullet is not suddenly regulating the buses some sort of reassurances if I can on the inner manifesto we committed to a transport bill we'll bring that transport bill forward and there will be as I have already said I think to the member and probably on the public record that there will be a bus element to that bill I'll be looking forward to hearing his submissions on this but the biggest issue that the bus operators tell me is not necessarily the ownership of the buses though I will happily explore his idea of local franchising as he discussed or indeed other models but actually an issue of for example congestion if it takes 50 per cent longer for a bus to go through Glasgow than it did as many years ago then clearly there's an issue where buses are becoming less reliable and therefore less popular so there's issues there for us all to tackle I'm more than willing and I am committed to absolutely tackling the issue of reliability and declining patronage I want to see an upward trend in patronage on the buses but I think I can in terms of community transport and I'll end on this point Presiding Officer that was mentioned by some of the members here when it comes to community transport I see the real value on it in terms of extending the concession to travel scheme there's real difficulties with that because the majority of community transport is done for example by private cars and therefore there's a difficulty in extending that scheme as well as the obvious budgetary pressures but I'm willing to see how I can support community transport most recently I announced that for the minibuses those community transport initiatives that rely on minibuses one of the biggest barriers seems to be the prohibitive cost of getting a minibus licence so we've committed to put some money and a fund towards helping community transport to get those minibus licence so in conclusion Presiding Officer yes I commend of course Liz Smith for bringing this motion to the Parliament I'll certainly work with members across the chamber to see how we can ensure that our public transport buses and otherwise work for the people of Scotland but in particular for those that have vulnerabilities and simply want to get to their doctors, surgeries their clinics or indeed their hospitals and I think all of us have a duty to ensure all the people of Scotland can get can access public transport regardless of their ability or indeed their postcode Thank you very much Minister that concludes the debate and I now suspend this meeting until 2.30 Thank you