 You're on you're on air. Okay, there we go Happy new year and welcome everyone to our first podcast of plot the red pill for 2022 The inevitable harm of the alienating parent Ours is podcast about truth and everything parental alienation. We are here to lift the veil My co-host Karen Belcourt and I Kim McCord have an amazing lineup of guests for you this season We begin our year with a world-renowned guest tonight The author of multiple books the most notable being malignant self-love narcissism revisited if you have ever googled the word narcissism Psychopath or dark triad you will know our guest as he has Thousands of YouTube videos online as well as millions of followers He is a professor of psychology at the Southern Federal University in Russia a Professor of both finance and psychology at the Center for international advanced and professional studies His work is cited in hundreds of books and dozens of academic papers He is known as the king of cluster B personality disorders Much of the vocabulary we use today Is Describes for example narcissistic abuse was coined by our guest He has lived a life of 10 men and this I do not exaggerate We welcome the incredibly educated larger-than-life Humorous and of course handsome Dr. Sam backman. Yes. Thank you for not forgetting handsome. I Do you think of cluster B? I am not I'll try I do my best to take it as a compliment My words I need to I need to ponder on this Okay, thank you. Thank you for a very kudzins introduction Sam we're so honored to have you here with us today And we are my hero for educating me about what I was held hostage in and How to navigate my way out so thank you Thank you. Thank you for having me. I appreciate Just let me put the recording device on so that we have a double Okay, we are set to go Should as should as they say in Israel Thank you, you know like Kim said, you know, thank you very much Thank you for the contribution that you make to the world because it really does Create a difference and it creates a world for for people who are going through this to have a place of understanding Because you know, as you know, we're in a world that is completely counterintuitive when we're dealing with relationships where works were Exposed to narcissistic abuse and We are trying to make sense of something that doesn't make sense and so much of what you Say gives us so much comfort and I know for myself, you know, you don't realize how much time you spend in my world Thank you Thank you. Thank you for this narcissistic supply and When I started my work in 1995 The main problem my face was the fact that there was no language no language to describe the experiences of victims of narcissistic abuse and the second problem I faced is that Practitioners professionals therapist psychology psychiatrists Refused to acknowledge that narcissistic abuse is not just another Garden variety of abuse not just another form of abuse But that it stands apart. It's utterly distinguished distinguishable from other types of pedestrian abuse So we have sexual abuse. We have financial abuse. We have legal abuse. We have elder elder abuse We have multiple forms of abuse People seem to Cherish the notion of abusing each other But nothing compares to narcissistic abuse. It's narcissistic abuse Is about vitiating and negating and attacking directly and modifying and taking over and assimilating your identity it's about simultaneously Attempting to disintegrate and deconstruct every dimension of your existence simultaneously and irreversibly And in this sense, narcissistic abuse definitely stands apart. It's a harrowing experience That is exceedingly difficult to communicate to other people Because when you try to communicate it to other people They keep minimizing it somehow they keep trying to translate it Into day-to-day experiences. They say, oh, well, it's like my uncle. It is, you know They try to somehow make sense of it But it's senseless. That's the problem. Narcissistic abuse is no meaning No sense. It's just there like a force of nature Okay, enough said Onto your questions Yeah, that was beautiful because that was exactly my first question to you this, you know today I was going to ask you, you know, why is narcissistic narcissistic abuse different than all other kinds of abuse? And so you answered that beautifully. Thank you so In 2011 you posted a video titled Abusive X leverages children against you Please help us understand the concepts of role reversal And how the alienating parent Coops the system and the reason the alienating parent Seeks custody of the children The narcissist I'm going to confine myself to the narcissist because that's my area of expertise Possibly the psychopath as well, but mainly the narcissist. He's not interested in the children He doesn't care about the children the children are pawns They're instrumentalities the tools He cares a lot about his ex-spouse or current spouse He cares about hurting her he cares about Modifying and controlling her behavior Is if he's a psychopathic narcissist or a psychopath then he's goal oriented. He wants to accomplish goals or aims The children are just just happen to be there But he's going to he's going to use the children and a monopoly of other tools available to him Including for example confidential information intimate information divulge During the heyday and the honeymoon phase of the relationship He's going to use your family. He's going to use your friends. He's going to use Another phrase I coined flying monkeys is going to is going to Co-opt the totality of the environment Again, he's going to turn your world against you Every element in your world The potted plant behind you is going to be used against you Everything and everyone suddenly becomes an enemy. That's a bit reminiscent of covid In during the covid pandemic friends and family had become potential sources of death They had become potential enemies You know, you had to cover yourself. You have to socially distance. You have to avoid them. You have to The same with the narcissist. He renders everything and everyone around you um a tool a menace um a figment of a horror film And so your children are just one of these elements As distinct from the typical alienating parent who is not narcissistic The narcissist uses uses children in a way that is laser guided And usually seizes and desists when the goal had been accomplished so Other abusers for example, they go they can be for obsessive compulsive They can be paranoid They can be vengeful They can be sadistic So other other abusers Have long-term agendas which essentially never stop The good news about the narcissist is that if you give him what he wants he stops The only problem is what he wants is your destruction So it's a bit of a conundrum a bit of a catch 22 what the narcissist does he Turns the children against you Which is classical parental alienation strategy or the parental alienation. I want to clarify Is not a clinically recognized syndrome. It had been rejected repeatedly By multiple committees of the diagnostic and statistical manual By all the professionals in the field. We don't teach it at university Etc. Etc. So I want these two. I want to make clear I still do believe however that they are alienating behaviors That parents do turn children against each other That this is a strategy And that this strategy is implemented incrementally and with forethought deliberately and intentionally So we might as well use the term parental alienation. Why not it has a ring to it So the narcissist alienates the children In a variety of ways Many of them indistinguishable from the classical alienate For example, he would tend to cast the the opposite parent or the spouse He would tend to cast her as a bed the secretary objects. He would say she's bad. She destroyed the family She brought this on She can't be trusted. She's dangerous. She's stupid. She's crazy She would he would devalue he would continue the process of devaluation after the discard Now that's a very novel clinical observation That it's not true that devaluation stops with the discard devaluation continues forever It continues through your children and it continues in your mind The narcissist embeds in your mind a voice And this voice continues to devalue you throughout your life It's this process is called introduction So the children are used this way. This is one technique of alienation The other technique of alienation is spying The children are asked to spy on the other parent and bring information to the narcissist The third technique is hurting the children Hurting the children in order to hurt the other parents. So for example behaving irresponsibly with the child Not catering to the child's medical needs And so on so forth and making sure the other parent knows about it And is helpless to do anything So that's very hurtful and it creates anxiety disorder and and so on The fourth the fourth technique is rendering the children flying monkeys converting the children to the cause Rendering the children worshipers of the narcissist so the narcissist becomes the good parent the fun parent Is is the parent with with whom you go on trips and you can smoke a smoke a joint And you can drink together and you know, you can do crazy things And then this is the fun parent Automatically casting the other parent As the non-fun parent the disciplinarian The harsh the tough love parents Which no child wants And then narcissists co-opt An adolescent adolescent rebellion Adolescents tend to define their identity in opposition to others and in comparison to peers So what the narcissist does he co-ops the process He acts as a peer Of the of the child. He becomes the child's best friend His peer he goes out with the child to do crazy adolescent things And so on so forth. And so the child bonds with the with the narcissistic parent on a peer level And finally the narcissist sometimes tries to Emotionally blackmail the child Into Define so the narcissist tries to force the child to become the narcissist's parent So that the child feels a responsibility a parental responsibility for the narcissist And it becomes very protective of the narcissist So then the other parent Is perceived as a threat to the narcissist And then the child is very defensive and protective of the narcissist and attacks attacks the other parent These are essentially the five techniques that narcissists use to alienate children Thank you In part two of the youtube video You just spoke about was Was entitled Tell your children the truth Sam can you please speak about why As targeted parents We think we're doing the right thing by keeping the harmful behaviors Of the alienating parent from our children It is a common and horrendous mistake reinforced by many mental health practitioners The abusers secret nuclear weapon is silence The abuser isolates you from friends and family and later on from your children And expects you to remain silent about To not launder the dirty laundry, you know in full view to not be ostentatious about your suffering He expects you to suffer silently in other words And when you do the child is denied critical information Not critical information in the sense that you're the good guy and your ex is the bad guy that that would be counter alienating That that's not a strategy I recommend But the child is denied critical information about the dangers of exceeding And colluding with a narcissist narcissist agenda And about what the narcissistic parent might do to the child would that includes definitely for example sexual abuse the When the narcissist disengages from his spouse He mentally disengages from the extensions of his spouse narcissists are incapable of perceiving children Or anyone else for that matter As separate entities They perceive them as extensions And the the children are are extensions of the other parent So when they divorce the other parent or Dump or break up with the other parent They simultaneously emotionally break up with the children And the children are perceived as extensions of the other parent To be tampered with to be modified to be worked on like raw material And then the narcissist feels that he's perfectly entitled to have sex with his children the incidents of incest After breakup Are sky-high It's because the narcissist cannot perceive the child As anything but the mothers for example extension So there's this risk the child should be educated to understand everything about setting boundaries About being firm About not being afraid To hurt the other parents emotions About spotting and detecting warning signs red flags inappropriate behaviors About reporting if necessary about Being true to a set of values and beliefs So the child needs to be alerted to the danger without vilifying the other parents of course Just telling him this that's the way it is and you know Daddy is like that and you should be like that and you should have your own Boundaries if you don't like to do something don't do it and if you feel uncomfortable walk away And stand firm and so on and so forth And Educating the child is a critical part of countering Both parental alienation and ongoing abuse via the child And regrettably the vast majority of parents don't do that and they come up with these nonsensical sentences like Yeah, but the child needs a father in his life or I don't want him to think bad badly of his father or his mother and But these are the wrong motivations because that means Sacrificing the child Sacrificing the child's welfare and well-being and mental health in in in favor of A social ideal Which is essentially honestly male chauvinistic. It's a patriarchal idea basically Like the family is a is a shared psychotic disorder. It's a unit. It's we against the world It's a cultish perception of the family the family is a cult And so you're in the cult and the rest of the world is against the cult and you have to protect the secrets of the cult It's a very sick perception of family dynamics Regrettably the prevalent one the dominant one And so the alienated parent feels very bad very ashamed and very ego dystonic and very uncomfortable You know exposing the truth especially to the child It remains silent and by doing so Sacrifices the child There's a selfish act Not telling the child is a selfish act Don't kid yourself. It's nothing to do with the child's welfare and well-being. It's you're trying to avoid conflict You're trying to avoid conflict and you're trying to maintain appearances and you're trying to conform to societal values that most definitely Favor abusers who happen to be in the majority men Wow Sam So that is a lot to process wow Um Unfortunately, we that go through parental alienation. We do not Comprehend what is going on at the time unfortunately It takes some time to process this and but by the time we've figured out what's going on most of the time You're already alienated from your children. So the I would have loved to educate my children but I did not have the uh The experience of what I was going through at the time so I I couldn't But now as you say that that completely makes sense um Going back to what you had said a little bit earlier about the discard When the narcissist discards you the ex-spouse What happens when you the healthy minded parent or the target parent divorces or discards or abandons the narcissist first Can you tell us what happens in their brain when that happens depends If you do that in a if you do it in an amicable largely private way Just you in the narcissist The narcissist is going to go through a process known as narcissistic injury It's a challenge or the undermining of his grandiose self-perception and his grandiose self-perception is That he is irresistible That he is addictive That he will never be abandoned by you because you can't you can't live without him Because he's perfect and he is omniscient and he's omniscient. In short, he's godlike He's godlike. It's a one one man religion and you are the worshipper And it's exactly like converting from one religion to another the original religion feels betrayed so The narcissist will feel betrayed and and humiliated would immediately cast it In terms of a morality play where you are the good and you're good and he's your evil and he's good he he would try to Cast himself as a victim. He would adopt a victim who stands And he would claim to have been victimized by you all along Um using very words very similar to what you would use he would say I I wasn't aware of what she was doing She was so surreptitious and so subtle and so cunning and malevolent that I couldn't imagine that she would do this Etc. Etc. So he he reacts from narcissistic abuse with Two essentially strategy is one is to devalue you to reframe you as an evil cunning skimming person the other strategy is is Is rage narcissistic rage So we would tend to become very very aggressive Now the aggression could be sublimated in other words. He could He could use his aggression channel is aggression in socially acceptable ways Or the aggression can be overt And could escalate in extreme cases who violence And even you know killing So it's a it's a dangerous game to play with a narcissist if he's a psychopathic narcissist, which is about 3% of narcissists Then you are definitely gambling with your life They they are unforgiving they are vengeful. They're they hold long-term grudges and they do not refrain from overt violence But the majority of narcissists simply simply would be aggressive in a variety of ways if they're covert narcissists They would become passive aggressive So they would drag the divorce for 20 years. They would make your life hell They would undermine and sabotage if they have to sign something they will not sign it, etc So this is these are passive aggressive strategies um This is if you do it If you if you discard the narcissist if you divorce the narcissist privately and amicably imagine It's the that's the good. That's a good kind of outcome. Now. Let's talk about the bed outcome If you divorce the narcissist in an ostentatious public Shaming and humiliating manner For example, if you make known to his social circle admirers so-called friends family If you if you out the process if you render the process public Then the narcissist and Experiences something much deeper than injury. It's a process known as narcissistic modification And modification dismantles The narcissist defenses, especially his grandiosity And he simply goes very crazy It becomes clinically indistinguishable from a psychotic And he may do seriously crazy things This is this is a seriously dangerous situation which involves all narcissists without exception So a piece of advice I would give to people who consider Kind of dismantling the bond exiting the the inferno that is narcissistic abuse A piece of advice I would give Inform your close circle inform your social safety net inform your family and your friends Do not seek to humiliate a narcissist publicly or to shame him Or to render the whole process public affair Or to ostentatiously challenge him for example by going on social media Don't do that because you will have modified the narcissist and then he will lose control over himself And then these people are dangerous Simply and they can take it out on the on the children definitely They can hurt the children to hurt you Kid kidnap them sexually molest them Uh hurt them physically not give them medical care beat them up, you know, they can use the children to get to you if they're modified Okay Karen I'm gonna get you to take the next question because I'm so sorry. My little dog Bella is barking at me and I need to let her out Excuse me She doesn't like zoomie since So So Sam When you know, what you've said is just it just is so impactful um What What what would you say when somebody is already when they've already a narcissistic? Uh partner has been abusive like physically abusive not just You know psychologically verbally When they are physically abusive, what is that a sign? Of you know in that in the narcissistic narcissistic abuse realm Physically abusive to the spouse you mean To the spouse to the children Yes, no, there's there's a difference the etiology the psychological background To being sexually abusive to the spouse has nothing to do with the etiology of being sexually abusive to the child in other words The narcissist is sexually abusive. It's uh, physically abusive. I'm sorry to children For reasons which are entirely different to the reasons why he sexually why he's physically abusive to his intimate partner The narcissist can be physically and by the way sexually abusive to his partner for example raper um Because it's a essentially a control strategy Having escalated other strategies at his disposal for example verbal abuse Intermittent reinforcement going hot and cold um These strategies fail the partner is too autonomous too independent too free thinking Too agentic Narcissists cannot bear that because it challenges the inner the internal object that represents the partner Narcissists have abandonment anxiety. They are afraid to be abandoned Exactly like borderline So they want you to freeze They want you to freeze. They want you to become an egyptian mummy They want you to not show any signs of life Let alone independence and autonomy and agency so when you do They escalate their control strategies So that first they would Recrement you then they would verbally abuse you Then they would threaten you etc. And if none of this works If none of this works They would resort to physical force as a form of intimidation and control strategy Essentially, it's a psychopathic Element or aspect of narcissism the antisocial aspect Narcissists physically and sexually abuse children for completely other reasons Which have nothing to do with the reasons to to abuse the spouse or the intimate partner They physically and sexually abuse children as a form of appropriation annexation Merging with the child fusing with the child Guaranteeing that the child will be utterly obedient subservient submissive adoring fawning and and Obsequious so the narcissist Trains house breaks the the child Trains the child to become essentially a pet An unconditionally loving and obedient pet Which then constitutes a source of narcissistic supply And we see this for example When the child is very young The narcissist is very loving Or at least imitates Loving So it's very loving is very caring is very holding is very attentive is very because The child gives him unconditional love and narcissistic supply Admires him adores him adulates him But then the child becomes an adolescent An adolescent most children tend to become adolescent So they become an adolescent Adolescents and adolescents are rebellious Adolescents are developing their own identity. They separate an individual. They become individuals They begin to criticize the narcissist They begin to disagree with the narcissist. They suddenly have their own opinions They have their own friends their own pastimes The narcissist feels neglected and abandoned by his children Because they had become independent And so it is during adolescence That narcissists begin to physically And otherwise abuse their children the most Because they're trying to re acquire the children To regain them to reclaim them to regain them And so this this dynamic is is very pernicious Because the narcissistic parent Is signaling to the child By becoming separate from me by becoming your own person by becoming an individual You're hurting me It's painful to me What you're doing So please stop growing don't grow anymore Just stop here And remain my little child Who is fawning and adulating and always loves me and there's nothing bad to say about me and always agrees with me And always adulates me because that's the way I want you for the rest of your life I don't want you to become your own person Because it hurts That's a very very toxic and poisonous message and many children Do exactly this they do just this They stop growing They stop growing to gratify The narcissistic parent This is especially true For when when we come to parentifying children children who had become parents of their own parents So some children Are identified the narcissistic parent as I said they become protective of the narcissistic parent They become like the mothers of the narcissistic parent And so these children definitely Cannot walk away because they feel they are abandoning a child So there's an inverse dynamic the narcissistic parent becomes the child And the and the child The offspring of the narcissistic parent becomes the parent And can't walk away because you you don't abandon a child So these are very sick pathological dynamics within the family system And the narcissist leverages each and every one of them gleefully willingly knowingly And if he's psychopath, he does it cunningly and deliberately and intentionally and with planning premeditated premeditated way. So And then the child is Defund is defund for life. He's scarred scarred for life this kind of child grows up with A very dysfunctional attachment style He when he teams up With an intimate partner All he knows to do is parentify. So he tries to become the intimate partner's parent Or the intimate partner's child He doesn't know better He doesn't know He can't he never became An adult in the full sense of the word. He's a simulated parent Or simulated child. He was never allowed to be a child as well. He's an extension Now the other parent is there Watching all these dynamics But the problem is The law for example law enforcement Mental health practitioners They don't recognize these dynamics You can't go to a police station and say I want to file a complaint against my husband. He's parentifying my child You can't do that You can't even explain it to the vast overwhelming majority of therapies They don't know what the hell is parentifying. They never heard of it You can't you can't Complain to a judge or to an evaluator Or to Psycho court appointed psychologists. You can't complain to them That the narcissist is subverting The child's ability to associate with his peers Because every time the child associates with his peers, he's punished One way or another passive aggressively or aggressively. You can't do that There's no way for anyone to to really Wrap his his head around this it's so People I mean even psychologists will tell you well. He's just being careful. The world is very dangerous So he's just being protective and maybe up is a bit overprotective It's impossible to communicate the reality inside the cell The bubble of narcissistic abuse and that is I think the victim's most horrendous predicament Not the abuse itself because we can withstand As human beings. We are resilient. We can withstand the most horrible circumstances We can we expect to be mistreated many of us. We believe in a hostile world essentially So That's not what breaks people what breaks people is the inability to communicate The feeling of infinite existential solitude Because no one gets what's happening to you not even people on forums of narcissistic abuse Each dysfunctional family Is is writing its own rules And these are idiosyncratic. They're unique to that family or to that Unit household they're unique each narcissist is very creative at constructing a virtual reality an alternative universe where there is inverted logic where Things which might horrify outside observers become the norm And so You start to you you start to feel yourself as a victim being co-opted into the delusion into the fantasy You start to support the fantasy you start to be very defensive and protective. So sometimes I come across victims who reject When when they're confronted with incontroversible evidence That the narcissist is doing bad things to their common children. They reject it They say well, I think you're exaggerating No, it's not that bad. It's not that bad They they defend The dysfunctional utterly sick a unit household family Against outsiders because they had been conditioned to do so by the noses Oh, yes, we can completely understand what you're saying because I've lived that So let's um, we're we'll move on to your video from 2013 which dealt with uh Your opinion that narcissistic personality disordered parents should be denied custody Uh, I believe you said such a parent should be granted supervised visitation only Does that opinion still stand in 2022 on that issue? Yes, of course it stands narcissistic personality disorder is an extremely severe mental health disorder As we would not grant visitation rights, for example to a parent with active psychosis Someone who is psychotic disorder is a strong anti psychotic medication Normally the course would not grant custody to someone like that Not even visitation We usually supervise visitation is supervised not by the other parent by supervised by court appointed, you know guardians Um Kernberg who is the forefather the grandfather of the field Kernberg was the one who suggested who had suggested first and I follow in his footsteps That narcissistic personality disorder is a form of psychosis Exactly like borderline personality disorder. These are attenuated forms of psychosis So it's a very very serious dangerous mental health disorder It's not just an arrogant prick An asshole or a jerk It's not Reducing narcissists to this Is kind of a collective defense. We don't want to believe that such people exist So we say oh come on you're exaggerating. It's just being an asshole, you know Because we don't dare We don't dare confront the alternative that there are people Who are subversive Who are evil Who conspire and collude to hurt manipulate and control other people. We we just deny that we want to believe In the essential goodness of mankind we deny this but Narcissist should be denied unbridled access to their children And they should most definitely be denied custody. First of all, they are not responsible for his parents They're dangerous. They generate very sick dynamics Interpersonally with the child and in the child Intracycically in the child so They they should be able to meet to meet the child to have time with the child, of course because they are parental figures But this time should be definitely supervised. I see no reason to To change that on the very contrary recent studies 2020 2021 We are beginning to realize That what we used to call overt narcissists Are actually psychopaths And so we are beginning to redefine narcissism and to say that Big number of narcissists were misdiagnosed and they're actually psychopaths And a small minority or a minority of narcissists known as covert narcissists or compensatory narcissists They are the real narcissists. They are the real narcissists But covert narcissists have their own poison They are passive-aggressive. They don't communicate openly They're underhanded The child has to guess all the time walk to walk on actions as to, you know, they have their own kind of so No, no kind of narcissists should have custody end of story. No kind of psychopaths should have custody I would go even further No one we borderline personality disorder should have custody These are dangerous mental health disorders end of story We as we would not give the child To the care of someone with psychotic disorder or schizophrenia Schizophrenia, for example paranoia, schizophrenia. We would never dream of giving a child to someone like that and yet paranoia schizophrenia psychotic disorder Is fully controllable with drugs. You take one pill a day. You're perfectly okay And yet we don't allow these people to have custody Narcissism doesn't have a pill There's no pill to cure narcissism There's no pill to reverse narcissism or ameliorate or mitigate The dysfunctional and antisocial behaviors of narcissism is also a thing We can help the psychotic. We cannot help the narcissists So I would I would say that personality disorders cluster B personality disorder are now In a category which is far more Sick and dangerous than psychotic disorders because we know how to treat psychotic disorders with very good results Unfortunately, how do you get the narcissistic or the psychopathic parent diagnosed To know and to be able to prove that that is indeed what they are. That's the problem Only through the courts, but you know It wouldn't help you much for example most courts pay very little heed or very little attention to Personality disorders is a diagnosis a diagnosis Yes, I mean if you were to come and say my husband is psychotic He's schizophrenic paranoid. He sees he sees People talking to him where they are none. He hears voices The judge would nod and say well, that's very dangerous to the child. Yeah, I'm going But if you come and say to the judge my husband is a narcissist. Well, who isn't It's like socially acceptable norm society itself is narcissistic and becoming increasingly more psychopathic It's it's becoming entrenched as a dimension of modernity to be a narcissist to be selfish to be egotistical to Consider other people as objects and instruments. There are even scholars who glorify and glamorize narcissism There are scholars serious scholars like datum like macobi who say that narcissism and psychopathy are positive evolutionary adaptations We should put them in charge. They're good leaders We should we should make them we should channel them or or render them socially useful in professions like medicine So there's a whole industry around high functioning narcissists productive narcissists in not in 2016 the prestigious british magazine new scientists Came up with july 2016 came up with a cover story parents May teach your children to be narcissists I'm kidding. You're not I remember that Yeah, but but basically the cluster B personality disorder parent is going to cause your child Inevitable harm is what you're saying. Yes That's the shortest answer you're gonna get Hey, I'm not even into a library anyone who contests this doesn't know the first thing about cluster B The the damage will be severe To all the critical dimension of social functioning and interpersonal relationships in the future And unfortunately a lot of it will be irreversible for example attachment styles Irreversible There's no way to change them once they become entrenched. So The the narcissistic parent teaches the child what we call insecure attachment style It teaches a child To avoid intimacy To suspect people To regard the world as hostile to be hyper vigilant and so on so forth The child grows up is unable to love or to have intimacy or any kind of functional relationship with another person And that regrettably is not changing. It's not it's not mutable. It cannot be changed Can't be reversed So Sam what are your recommendations for I think we I think we limited ourselves to 45 minutes. Shall we make this the last question? Yes, thank you. Thank you. Yes, please go ahead Karen. Thank you What are your recommendations for target parents? Who are desperately wanting to reconnect with their children? You know, what what do you recommend to them? patience patience There's very little you can do as long as the child is exposed to the other parents. The poisoning process will continue The inoculation against you will continue And there's very little you can do about it and you will not get any support from institutions If you become too adamant and insistent you will not even get support from friends and family They'll give up on you. They will think you're obsessed and crazy They will begin to believe the narcissist over you So The only thing In my view at least Although online you can find strategies for coping with parental alienation. Many of them by the way counterproductive, but The only thing in my view Is to show To demonstrate to the child That the narcissistic parent is not the only kind of parents around that there is an alternative That narcissists are not the only type of person You that the child must have must be exposed to a healthy alternative of parenting And then in due time the child makes a choice when he grows up becomes a adolescent let alone adult The child makes a choice If the child is exposed to a narcissistic parent And to a healthy parent In the vast majority of cases Around the age of 18 to 21 the child chooses the healthy parent In the vast majority If however You allow the narcissists to convert you into a narcissist To render you manipulative To force you to adopt underhanded tactics To collude in this He said she said Narratives and behavior patterns If you in other words get infected with narcissism Then the child has has to choose between two narcissistic parents And that's a bad choice You need to stay centered Boundary Focused you need to adhere to your values and respect yourself And you need to act with dignity And you need to foster in the child the realization that Yeah, you can be like for example daddy But you can also be like me And now you choose it also shows the child it also Respects the child's it's a way of respecting the child Not forcing on the child or imposing on the child any any model of personhood But giving the child a menu to choose from and the good news is the overwhelming vast majority of children when they grow up They understand what had happened And they usually choose the right side So you're saying the child is on their own journey to figure this out Yes All children are on their own journey to figure this out Even with two healthy parents Even with the parents are totally healthy. It's an illusion It's a total hallucination to believe That you are shaping your child that you're molding him or her that you are Showing her the way. It's a parental delusion. It's very comforting and so children experiment And many of their experiments are exceedingly dangerous and risky And many of their experiments Are going to end up in a lot of pain and hurt sexual experiments social experiments Romantic experiment Children have to endure life You can't protect your child and if you do you're a bad parent The main role of a good parent Is to push the child away Not to embrace the child but to push the child away. That's a good enough parent Because only by pushing the child away You are forcing the child and legitimizing the attempt to become his or her own person The child says well, I'm going to become my own person And my mother is okay with that. Actually she encourages me to do this Separation individuation comes in two ways when the child is 18 months to two years And when the child is another lesson And many parents fail In these two phases. They don't know the art of separation They're too protective. They are too They cocoon the child They isolate the child the blackmail the child overtly or covertly it it you need You need to have a modicum of of course if you see your child doing drugs I'm not talking about extreme situations. Yeah, if you see the child doing drugs, I mean, of course, you should intervene Parents you should have hands-on parenting, but hands-on parenting is not the equivalent of control Not the equivalent of of solitary confinement for the child hand-on parenting is The vigilant monetary Of the child's experimentation with life And then When real danger rears its its head you intervene If the child stands to experience pain You do not intervene pain is the greatest teacher The child needs to experience pain And the child needs to experience some danger These are great teachers and to deny the the child this education renders a child an eternal child, which is a very good way of describing analysis Sam that's it for pop the red pill tonight. Thank you very much. Your information has been unbelievable Thank you for having me My name is Kim McCord and we hope you have learned something valuable tonight and enjoyed your time with us Apologies to your dog. I didn't mean to do it to him to her. I'm sorry Okay Ten minutes. Take care. Thanks. I'm stopping the recording. Okay