 We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. These words from the Declaration of Independence are familiar to many of us, and yet it took 143 years for women to get the right to vote and 189 years for black people to get the right to vote. And still today, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are still only words for many people. Here in Boston, life expectancy varies by 30 years, depending on where you live. In Roxbury, with many poor and black people, life expectancy is 59 years. In the back bay, wealthy and mostly white, life expectancy is 91 years. It's tough to have liberty when you are in prison. The United States incarcerates 716 people for every 100,000 people. Our rate of incarceration is more than five times higher than most countries in the world. Millions of people in our country don't have health care, a decent job, good education, a home they can afford, and that makes it pretty hard to pursue happiness. So on this show, you are going to meet people who are making it possible to have life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. People today who are making the words of the Declaration of Independence come true. Hi. Well, we're really lucky to have with us today Cliff Cohen. Cliff is the Chief of Staff of the Service Employees Union. And Cliff, welcome. He's been doing union work for many years. He's one of those people making life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness possible, not just words for a lot of people. So welcome, Cliff. So we'd like to start. Tell us something about where you came from, where you grew up, and where your values came from. We always try to start there because I'm sure a lot of people would like to know this, both members of the union and just people in the public, like who are you and that kind of thing. It's good to be here. I was born in New Hampshire and lived there for a while and moved to Massachusetts. I grew up in a Jewish middle-class family. We didn't have much exposure to unions. I think my political activism was my parents would vote on election day and talk about Democrats and say bad things about Republicans, and that was sort of it. And then when I went to college, was when Ronald Reagan started the giraffe registration, and I got a little agitated and started organizing around that. When I went to some anti-intervention rallies, and when I was in graduate school, I got involved in anti-apartheid work and the divestment movement, and that sort of my political awakening and organizing happened gradually. It wasn't something that I was born into or was a big part of my childhood or adolescence, but it came later. But what led you to do that, say when you were in college, you got involved, you said, in the anti-apartheid movement. I mean, a lot of people, probably of your generation in college, that's kind of far away, South Africa. Like, why you? Yeah, I mean, just the stories that we read and saw on TV about what was going on in South Africa and how the horrendous living conditions people were under and how their political rights were, everything that we took for granted were being denied. People, because of their race, was just outrageous. There were organizers on campus that were helping people get involved. The key was that a lot of corporations were involved in profiting off of what was going on in South Africa. You went to a gas station and Shell Gas was the profits that you were giving them. Some of it was being used in South Africa. That's a connection that I made. But I was wondering, why did you give a hoot? A lot of people went to the same gas station and said, fill her up, buddy. That's cool. And to make a connection between filling your car up in Danvers and South Africa, where did that come from? I don't know if I have the answer. I was outraged by the injustice of it all and realized that we could make a difference by organizing. And that's how I got involved. You have some idea. I know you said your parents said nice things about Democrats and not so nice things about Republicans and went to vote. But I was wondering if you have some sense of where those values came from. Yeah. My family wasn't terribly religious. We went to the temple a couple of times a year. Maybe it's from the religious training I had that social justice was something that we cared about. But there was no activism in my family until I went off to college. But there was something in the religious training you had around justice? I don't know. I can't really pinpoint how it happened. Interesting. But it happened in some way. And you said there were organizers on campus. This was at Clark where you were? Yeah, at Clark University. It was mostly faculty who were organizing around the draft registration campaign. And then there were various, there were some left groups that were there doing anti-intervention work in Central America. So I remember going to getting on buses and going to D.C. in the early 80s around various, to stop various interventions that were happening in Central and South America. That's a long trip, taking a bus ride from Worcester to D.C. Long trips. And who interested you in that? Do you remember how you got interested? You said faculty, I know. I know there was a professor Ross who was involved. He was very involved with the old fashioned teach-ins that were happening around. Those issues were common on campus. So I think that's how I got involved. That's great. And then you've worked in the labor movement for a long time. Can you tell us a little bit how that happened? How you got into union organizing? Yeah. So I went to graduate school after undergrad and realized I probably should have taken some time off. So I got a job at a small psychiatric hospital in Somerville called Central Hospital where I was a mental health worker. A bunch of us got together because the conditions there were pretty bad. We made up $5 an hour. There was understaffing. It was unsafe for the clients and the staff. We sort of realized there were things called unions out there, which I didn't really know much about. But we actually went through the Yellow Pages and found a union. There is such a thing called the Yellow Pages or was 30 years ago. And found one that seemed like it was related to the work we did and we called them. And organized it came and we shot it out the hospital and figured out where everyone worked and developed a little organizing committee. And that really was the turning point where I realized that if working people got together and coordinated their efforts they could change things at work. Our organizing campaign got crushed. The company scared a lot of people, told them they'd be fired if the union came in. The hospital would close. They said they were going bankrupt and the union would push them over the end. So nothing, the campaign didn't succeed. But I sort of caught the organizing bug at that point and wanted to work organizing workers after that. And that's sort of set me off in that direction. And aside from the low pay you also said it was dangerous. I think you said you once got hit or something. Yeah, yeah. In a psychiatric unit when people are having a flare up of their mental illness, sometimes things can be unsafe. And there was not enough staff to keep them the client safe or the staff. So yeah, in those days restraints of people with mental illness happened more frequently. And so I remember getting assaulted and the clients assaulted each other. It was mostly related to not having enough staff on. And that was related to the way the company deployed its resources. So it was bad for the workers and it was also bad for the people with mental illness that they were themselves being hurt. Exactly. Right. And so why do you think the company was so reluctant or more than reluctant to allow the union in? I think it's the typical story that in companies whether it's a hospital or a factory, the owners, the directors have almost complete control over everything. And so when the work is organized and form a union, the company has to share some decision-making powers and that's a loss for them. I'm not going to shed a tear for them, but it's a loss for when you lose some power. And for for-profit companies, which this hospital was, it was a for-profit. Yeah, it means there'll be less money going to the, in this case it was a family that owned a couple psychiatric hospitals, they would have less money for themselves and so that's why they resist. Yeah, yeah. And so now tell us a little bit more. A lot of people don't know a lot about unions. What are some of the benefits aside from you mentioned about pay and safety that comes from joining a union or what can come if you're successful anyway? I mean a union is basically at its core is about solidarity of people at a work site or a company standing up for each other and protecting each other. So you do that through the bargaining process where you negotiate a contract so then everyone has clear rules about how you're going to be treated and it eliminates favoritism. If the boss wants to or supervisor is on theater a group of workers, the union contract is a way to, in people coming together through the grievance process is a way to resolve those problems. So it's financial advantages that a worker at a unionized company makes significant more than the same worker at a non-unionized company. That helps for life, liberty and pursuit of happiness when you're working three jobs to pay your rent. Exactly and then you have the opportunity to be treated with fairness on the job and so those the fairness and the economic advantages is why polls show that well over 60% of the workers in this country want to be in the union because of all those advantages. The problem is it's the legal mechanisms for getting a union are very complicated and way outdated. Right you mentioned grievances can you explain like what that means? You know you and I may know but a lot of people may not know give me like an example. So like example would be say there's overtime opportunities at a company or a work site the contract might say that overtime has to be given to the most senior person first or put out for volunteers first and just clear rules. That's part of the contract so it's not like hey I like Cliff so I'm gonna give him or I don't like Cliff and I'm gonna give it to him or whatever. Right. So if a company were to not follow that contract language then you can file a grievance saying that the company violated the contract and then most grievance procedures result in the end result is a neutral arbitrator will then issue a decision whether the company was violated the contract and then the company is bound to follow that arbitrary decision. Most cases don't go to arbitration but the fact is expensive and if the company knows that they're gonna lose they will they will then settle. Right so at least gives an opportunity rather than just going home and kicking the dog or your partner or something. In non-union places that if you raise issues the company's boss often says well if you don't like it you can go work somewhere else. Right exactly good luck with that right or yeah or lump it or yeah good luck. Yeah and I know your union SEIU the service employees international union have a lot of workers organized by the state of Massachusetts is that right? Correct yeah what's it been like organizing workers who are state employees? So yeah so we represent about 8500 social workers who work for the state in a variety of state agencies and you know that workers who work for the state are no different than workers who work for a private company they you know they want a decent wage they want to be treated with fairness I think with the social workers a lot of people go into the work for the state because they want to care for the abused neglected kids or people with mental illness and then they realize that that's their first avenue to coming to the state but then they realize that if you know if the caseloads are too high or there aren't enough workers in the office then they can't deliver the service that they want so some people get involved with the union because they want to improve the quality of service for the clients and but I think state workers are no different than any other any other group of workers. And how's the state responded I mean you mentioned the private company at the Somerville mental hospital which you know said we're going to close down and you're going to lose your job what's been the state's reaction or you know over the years you've been doing this. State workers got in this country states have to pass laws state by state to get collective bargaining rights and state workers in Massachusetts have had those rights in some time in the 70s before I was when I was still in high school and I think this you know a lot of managers you know would you know would rather not there be a union but they but it's a political reality and they learn to deal with it and but I think we've dealt with you know unlike private companies and state government you know the political parties sort of you know there's an election and a new person comes in to run becomes the new new head boss and but I think whether you're they're democrats or republicans they'll realize the union in the organized workers are here to stay so there's there's not a lot of you know there's not a lot of you know mercy like there is in other states yeah I know you also said a lot of people that you organize are social workers mental health workers who get into the workers they want to be helpful to people yeah and I noticed you've told me the union itself has done a lot of bargaining not so much just for the improvements for the workers themselves increase pay better vacation stuff that the individual workers like but what you call a common good I think yes you know so if maybe you can talk about that because I think that's something a lot of people don't know about you mentioned I think earlier you've worked with foster care workers and try to get the state to improve not so much life of the workers but for the the people in general can you describe that because that's I think really interesting yeah so I think it's a continuation of like the whole history of organizing is that people like people who have some strength and power if they don't sort of share that and bring more and help other people organize and get power then then you're isolated and you know just to go backwards a little bit you know in the 50s and 60s auto workers and steel workers use their clout to give to get state workers collective bargaining and in other in other states really and then and so continuing that thread you know we realize that you know state workers could do a better job serving their clients if we use some of our strength and power to improve services for people we we work with so in bargaining we've we've often pushed for for for example for DCF social workers DCF is the Department of Children and Families they help abused and neglected kids in Massachusetts and help help their families must be a tough job it is it's a it's very tough and so we've we've gone to bargaining and to try to raise the rates for foster families because there's a big problem in the child welfare world where foster families get very little resources to even though they're taking on kids to help resources like money to pay for kids you and I have both parents yeah children end up costing a few pennies I mean there are many lasting values but they need clothes you know right so whatever right cell phones yeah so we've tried to use the political strength of the union to try to raise rates for foster families because we know that would benefit the the families that we work with right makes the kids happy or pursue happiness it's hard when you don't have money to you know buy decent food for the kids you know exactly take them out for pizza once a while you know exactly and we've um yeah we're we're in bargaining as we speak with this state the Commonwealth of Mass we have similar proposals that deal with climate justice climate justice and racial justice that even though they're not technically you know traditional bargaining issues we're trying to use the the strength that we have to improve things in the community particularly around you know lots of different issues but the climate justice racial justice are two of the ones we're focusing on now and have you had success doing that like raising the wages or pay for foster parents I think we're making progress there there's more and more talk on Beacon Hill and in the advocacy community about the rates needing to come up we're also organizing foster parents and you know in a bigger way to try to you are yourself you know using your staff to yeah yeah talk to foster parents who aren't members of the union correct correct just to help them yeah yeah that's great help them get more strength and um yeah so I think we're make you know we're so we're using using our um you know the the leverage that we have to try to improve things in the community not just um not just for us at the bargaining table because yeah and um this year our union voted to um we put the question out to the members should we focus just on work site issues at the work site or should we get involved in in broader community campaigns to improve to uplift the community really and the result was overwhelmingly we should we should do both really fight at work and improve things in the community as a whole so we are we had an annual meeting this fall where it was unanimous to support a number of campaigns that not that don't affect just the members but affect their communities as well so this means our union members pay dues and can hire staff like you and other people so that means some of that money that they're paying goes not just to help themselves but could you describe a little more about that I mean that's pretty interesting what are the other areas they're trying to improve in the community so one is around racial justice another one is around climate justice so like we're like for climate justice a concrete example is where I'm involved in coal coalitions to divest state pension funds from fossil fuel companies oh really where we're working on you know it's more of a work site issue but encouraging the commonwealth to allow workers to work from home because the governor has said and most politicians have encouraged private companies to allow their employees to work from home occasionally or get off the road keep your car at home and so we're yeah so it'll help with you know the environment it will help with traffic jams yeah it'll help it'll help everyone right so so we're in bargaining now trying to convince the administration to allow state work you know they have like real clear numerical goals of how many state workers can work from home really each each year well that's great are there other areas you're doing that besides foster care and work from home there's health care reform you know we're all you know we've always been pushing for universal health care and making sure that everyone has access to affordable care there's education both you know the fact that your zip code shouldn't determine the quality of your education right we're doing a lot in student debt relief oh really you would tell me about that what's going on with that you said you got some money for yeah so we we recently settled a settle made an agreement with a commonwealth to create a training fund to train state workers in a variety of areas but but a a part of that money is going to be used for a million dollars to reduce student debt burdens first for our members so that that was just announced a couple weeks ago and we're in the process of rolling that out and then we have also secured two million dollars for scholarships for our members in their in their children and so that that that falls into you know the category of education justice and why do you think your members voted to do things because it was a vote I assume it's democratic if they decide where their dues money goes what do you think they decided to work beyond just the traditional you know I want more pay and better vacations and whatever else you know I think people understand that you know there are there are big complex societal problems that affect affect them every day and that the union by just focusing its attention on an employer can't you know can't solve all the other can't address all the other issues that are affecting a family a family's life so I think it was I can't say it was just common sense but it people I think people understood that there are bigger issues out there besides you know whether you know how you were treated at work and they wanted the union to be part of those campaigns and do you as a leader play a role in that and other staff people you know I mean obviously people are going to listen to you or the other elected officials how does that work well we have a union is we haven't talked about this too much but a union is a democratic organization where you know the members get to vote on who their representatives are and and who their stewards are and who the leadership of the union is and so we we have a conversation with with the various rank and file leaders in the union about these strategies and ideas and and you know it takes a number of years to sort of you know develop a campaign but over the last few years we started having these conversations and it was clear that you know a broad group of members in the union wanted to go in this direction so it's it's a lot of meetings a lot of discussion a lot of getting feedback a lot of surveying and some polling and you know a lot of a lot of hard work of people getting together and drafting resolutions and and talking about we have you know how far to support it you know democracy is what do they say the worst system except for all the others you know so before democracy there was a plague of taxes now there's a plague of meetings you know there's lots of meetings but that's and you have how many members eight thousand or more well totally we have almost twenty thousand twenty thousand because it's not just the state work as we represent um almost seven thousand human service workers who work at private agencies who contract with the state group homes group homes social workers we represent family child care providers who deliver really in their own homes wow and um that's a tough job yeah yeah yeah and uh a few thousand faculty at the universities in boston who are adjuncts or oh really they get paid really poorly yeah i mean i did that once i couldn't believe how little they were paying i mean it was crazy right so we only have a few minutes to end up but i i think what are the uh what do you think the most important lessons you've learned you've been doing this now for decades uh that you've learned both about yourself and about workers and organizing what would you say are those lessons i think i think the most i mean one big lesson is about i think about listening and and that um when you're talking to workers whether you're organizing a new you know a group of workers to form a union or or you're working on some other campaign it's it's very important to listen to people's stories what what they're concerned about and and um you're trying to connect those stories to the to the campaign that that were that you're involved in um uh you you uh you know for for people to take action to change the a lot you know the working lives that have changed their community um you know you you have to you have to know you have to listen to where people are coming from and then and then um you know help help um you know you know and then identify identify leaders you know who want to you know who want to take action to improve their situations so i think it's mostly about listening that that's what you've done for a long time yeah right i would say listen don't sell you know you can't have i got a union for you yeah you know it's doesn't really that doesn't work well no no people will say like yeah i've been sold toothpaste and cars and everything else but yeah so uh do you have any particular memories of things that were particularly uh over the years we only have like a minute left you know but uh things you remember where you learned this like you know listened don't sell and there any particular highlights that are important for people to know um it's um i you know i'm just thinking of the over the years there's been a lot of uh uh members that i've recruited to be activists and leaders in the union and um i i can't think of one in particular that that sticks out but um i think um i just just think taking the time to learn someone's story and um and um encourage and encourage their their development as a leader and um i think some people need a little pushing and um i think you know you know people don't generally naturally you know volunteer to do things i think people have to be asked and encouraged and i think just the fact of asking someone to play a role is is um you know can be very rewarding for them and and uh if you know sometimes if you don't ask nothing will happen so you have to you have to ask you don't ask you don't get yeah right no thanks a lot uh so i really appreciate your coming in cliff and letting people know about how a union like the service employees local 509 can help people get some life liberty and hopefully enable them to pursue happiness thanks a lot well thank you appreciate it