 Welcome to the 10th meeting of the Criminal Justice Committee. Apologies have been received from Pauline McNeill this morning and Collette Stevenson, Fulton MacGregor and Rona Mackay are joining us remotely. One of our witnesses for panel 1 is slightly delayed. Our first item of business today is our first evidence session on the fireworks and pyrotechnic articles Scotland bill. Before we begin, I would like to place on record our thanks to the Blackburn Bonfire Night Action Group for hosting our visit on Monday. It was extremely helpful to hear how the local community have worked to tackle the misuse of fireworks in that area and their views on the proposals in the draft bill will be very much appreciated. I refer members to papers 1 to 4, and I'm very pleased to welcome to today's meeting our first panel of witnesses, Assistant Chief Officer Stuart Stevens, director of service delivery with the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service, and David Hamilton, chair of the Scottish Police Federation, welcome both. Alistair Haye of the fireworks review group is slightly delayed and will be joining us shortly. We very much appreciate the time that you have taken to join us this morning. We will now move directly to questions. We have got around about an hour and 15 minutes, so I wonder if I can maybe open up questions and maybe come to yourself, Stuart First and then David. I really just ask you first of a general question, perhaps to outline your experiences and involvement in the issue of fireworks and pyrotechnics, obviously in your professional role, and whether you feel that the legislation being proposed in the bill is the right step forward, and that the timing is right on this. I will come to you first, Stephen. Sorry, Stuart. That's okay. Good morning, colleagues. As I said, Stuart Stevens is Assistant Chief Officer and director of service delivery for the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service. Clearly, as a fire officer of 24 years, I've got a considerable experience of fireworks and pyrotechnics, particularly in the bonfire period that occurs every year in November. It probably comes as no surprise that fireworks present quite a considerable challenge for the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service. There's essentially three strands to that. First, there's the harm, the danger that poses to people who use fireworks inappropriately, or clearly I'm not aware of the damage that they may cause. The second is around the antisocial behaviour use of fireworks, and the third clearly is the impact on my firefighters and partners from Blue Light Emergency Services, who are subject to antisocial behaviour and the use of fireworks. Every year, we see a considerable number of incidents in which fireworks are either fired at emergency services workers, or are used to intimidate members of the community, put them through letterboxes, smash in car windows and put them into cars. Clearly, that presents a significant challenge to the fire service, but it's also quite a considerable safety challenge to members of the community. The impact is felt every year on the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service. It probably is part of a wider antisocial behaviour issue, and it's not unsurprising that, come November 5, antisocial behaviour does increase considerably. We sell fireworks quite openly within shops, and the people can obviously use them as part of that antisocial behaviour. In terms of the legislation, the service absolutely welcomes the legislation. We believe it is a step in the right direction in order to mitigate those issues that I've described previously in terms of the use of fireworks. The timing is right as well. We are seeing every year antisocial behaviour increasing, and the use of fireworks to, as I say, intimidate or carry out antisocial behaviour increasing all the time. Every year, unfortunately, I have to witness some of my firefighters being injured by fireworks, or being intimidated by the use of fireworks all the time. Last year, I was in our control room during Bonfire Night, and I was watching on CCTV the number of my crew being attacked by fireworks. Not only that, once the fireworks had run out, the individuals were quite readily able to go and restock by going to the nearest shop and buying more fireworks and then carrying on that behaviour as well. Thankfully, over the past few years, we have not had a firefighter seriously injured. We have had a number of appliances significantly damaged by fireworks. We have had a number of near misses, and we have had a number of individuals who have been injured, but nothing seriously. However, I do believe that that is the only matter of time before that actually happens. I understand that my police colleagues have been subject to similar issues as well. I hope that that answers your question. I will come back to you on a couple of points on the impact of your crews. I will bring in David Hamilton. I am the chair of the Scottish Police Federation. I have 25 years of police service, and the period of time around November is the period when you can dread, because you know what is going to happen. It happens every year. We see an escalation in antisocial behaviour and almost a weaponising at times of fireworks, where people are taking fireworks that they can readily get and are using them to attack communities, attack police officers, and respond to that. Over the past few years, we have seen a marked increase in that, and I have had a number of public order deployments put in place just to give the officers protection. The cost to this attempt to officers is quite significant. We have seen officers badly burned with fireworks that have been scarred for life and traumatised by it. We have also had officers who have been temporarily deafened by fireworks. It is almost part of the kind of season that it comes through. It is a consistent problem all my career. That has been a problem. It is getting worse, though. Our police responses, probably since about 2016, have been ramped up significantly in terms of having to respond to that with full public order deployments. I am talking about officers in full riot gear and shields, because that is the only protection that they have that can sustain the degree of violence that is being presented with. It is not just in one particular area. There are obviously hotspots, but it is certainly across the central belt that we see this being a problem. Even on the more rural areas, we do have those issues. It is perhaps lower-level in terms of the scale, but it is still significant and people are still being attacked with that. We welcome the legislation and the controls that are being proposed. A quick follow-up question, if I may, for both of you. You just touched on David Dorn recently. You have had to go to the extent of having, for example, a full public order deployment, so I will come back to you and ask what extent the firework season has impacted on resources, on planning and, ultimately, the cost of responding to fireworks and the issues that arise from the use of fireworks. In terms of the planning element, the planning for firework period starts just after the spring time. We work quite considerably with partners from local authority, the third sector, our colleagues in Police Scotland, to put in place both plans to respond to fireworks period. I say period because it is not just two or three nights, it is a matter of weeks, but also quite considerable community safety engagement activity that gets taken place in the run-up to bonfire night with schools, youth groups, et cetera, to make sure that we commit to get that, and also with animals groups, veterinarians and things like that, because we do understand the quite significant impact on animals, people with diverse issues. We do a lot of planning that takes place, both from a response prevention and prevention perspective. In terms of the actual response on the night, it is a considerable response that takes place on the night. We will mobilise well over 1,000 appliances on bonfire night alone. To put that into perspective for you, on average, the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service will mobilise around about 350, 400 times a day on a normal day, and on bonfire night it will be well over 1,000 mobilisations will take place. We will also handle 1,000s more calls that we do not mobilise to because it is control burn and things like that. That puts considerable pressure on our operations control rooms and our front-line staff. As I say, generally, as on the night, there was a peak, however, in the run-up to it and the days following it, with considerable resource and capacity demands. I cannot quantify that into pounds and pens in terms of financial element, but it is considerable in terms of the impact on us. My colleague talked about rural areas. Most of our rural areas are covered by retained duty officers. It is an absolute keystone of our communities. They have to mobilise from their primary roles, their primary employment roles in order to deal with those incidents as well, and whether that comes at a cost to the service as well. I cannot give you the actual numbers or cost. That is for Police Scotland really to give you. What I can tell you though is that, again, this is not just 5 November, but this is a season. We have taken off other duties, put into our public order units and deployed them, so we are taking officers away from other parts of community policing, other parts of the service to do this, to staff these vans up and to respond to that. We also have another tier, which is the community police aspect. They are diverting their attentions into dealing with this as preventative work in advance. That is another abstraction that sometimes is not caught by costing. If you are doing this, you are not doing something else. There is a significant amount of time done with that. Of course, our response officers who are just absolutely run ragged when it comes to these types of events because it is call after call after call. Again, Police Scotland will be able to give you some idea about the volume, of course, but it is significant. I hand over to Russell. Welcome, Alasdair. You have arrived safely, so I will just let you get settled and hand over time. I apologise. It took me two and a half hours to drive here from Dundee today, so I am genuinely embarrassed, but my apologies to the committee. We are just glad that you have arrived safely. In terms of the season that you referred to, David, how long would that typically last? We normally plan for it to be a number of days. I cannot tell you the exact number of days, to be honest, because it is an operational planning matter that Police Scotland would make a decision on based upon the threat and intelligence that is coming through, but we expect that to be at least a week to 10 days in general. That is what we would typically be looking at. From reading a lot of the submissions, there seems to be two key issues. One is the noise element that lots of people do not like. The much more serious deliberate use of fireworks to target either members of the public property or emergency services. Do you have any stats either of you about the number of those types of incidents over the years, because it does sound that there has been a year-on-year increase, but has it been measured or quantified in any way that you know of? I can give you some stats on attacks. We refer to them as axle violence, so that encompasses both physical attacks and verbal attacks, and the use of fireworks. In 2018, there were 10 of those on Bonfire Night and 6 on 2019, and last year that was 7 attacks on firefighters on the night of Bonfire Night. 2021? 2021, yes. I should just say that some of those resulted in hospitalisation of two individuals as well, not through fireworks but through assault of your employees. So that was 2018-2019, then it jumps to 2021? Yes, so 2021 was 7, 2020 was 6, 2019 was 6, 2018 was 10, 2017 was 8, and it's a running theme from that on the years previous to that. Right, indeed. In terms of this type of behaviour, that only occurs around November 5. It doesn't apply in the other periods of the year where fireworks are used to celebrate religious principles and so on. No, it would be that. We do have axle violence that takes place throughout the year, unfortunately. It's just a kind of emerging trend, as my colleagues point out in terms of attacks on emergency services workers, but with the use of fireworks, it's clearly around about the Bonfire period and not other periods where fireworks are not available. Right, okay. Thank you. I'll bring in Rona Mackay. I think I'll bring you in next. Over to you, Rona. Thank you, convener, and good morning panel. We've just heard from Stuart and David some alarming evidence about the consequences of fireworks on the fire service and on the police service. Could I maybe ask your view on whether you would have preferred an outright ban on fireworks and if not, why not, and just the issues around that, if I can come to Stuart first, David, and then Alistair, thanks. It probably comes as no surprise that, as a servant fire officer, my personal preference would be a complete ban on fireworks. However, I think we need to look at things in the round and we need to understand that there are some cultural and religious uses of fireworks, some celebration use of fireworks. The vast majority of people also use fireworks in a very measured and mature approach and don't engage in antisocial behaviour, so I think that this legislation strikes that balance in terms of making it more difficult for people to acquire fireworks, but also making sure that those who do use them use them more sensibly and that the licensing element encourages people to carry out some training and how to use them beforehand and go through a process that makes it slightly more challenging to buy fireworks, which is good and puts some control around them, so I think that this does strike that balance between appropriate use and misuse of fireworks. Fireworks are safe, if used properly and safely, and what we are talking about here is the behaviours. The legislation, as we view it, that is proposed seems to be taking for me a very balanced approach to it in terms of that individual right for people to be able to use fireworks and celebrate in an appropriate and responsible way, but at the same time dealing with those who don't, and that's the focus of our concern is those who don't. I think that this legislation does in a proportionate way and puts some kind of tearing on it whereby we're encouraging people, yes, of course, use this, but I suppose it's like cars, isn't it? If I was a road safety person, I could say, well, I don't want to have cars, but that's not appropriate. I want people to be able to have cars, but they need people to drive it, and that's the key bit, and that's how I think this is a proportional way of dealing with it. I don't know if we're going to be talking about pyrotechnics separately, but again, there's a slight nuances within that as well, because for pyrotechnics that is a problem that causes us even more problems all year round, and I think that that's something which is slightly different. I think that my colleagues do have some questions on that later in the session. In terms of the working group, we had a very clear terms of reference, and it wasn't actually to consider an outright ban on fireworks, though. What we do know is that in the public consultations, this was something that actually featured very heavily many people calling for an outright ban, so it was inevitable when we came to the review that it was something that actually was discussed, and our number one recommendation was not at this time to bring in an outright ban. As my colleagues have already said, what we were looking for here is a balanced approach where the enjoyment that many people and their cultural issues as well, the enjoyment that many people have from fireworks can still be maintained, while understanding the distress that brings the others and the downright criminality that happens on occasions to try and strengthen the legislation, the preventative approach around that. I think that what we also tried to do in the working group is move from anecdote. There's many stories told about the harm that fireworks actually caused, and what we sought to do was to create a strong and evidence base, as we possibly could. We did that through gathering all the available evidence here within Scotland and also commissioning work, where we gathered evidence from countries that have strengthened their legislation around fireworks in recent years. It was interesting that there is always a potential with legislation for unintended consequences, and some of the evidence from countries that had banned fireworks. I brought forward more of the unintended consequences such as a black market being created. Getting that balance right for all the reasons that my colleagues have said, but also that proportionality to try and ensure that we don't invite some of the unintended consequences and that we derive the benefits from the proposed bill that is going through. Thank you. That's very interesting. Thank you, convener. That's me. Can I just provide a point of clarity? Sorry, I misrepresented the numbers before, Mr Finlay. So it's just for clarity. In 2021, about 14 acts of violence over the bonfire period, and in 2020, that was 17, of which 13 were actually on bonfire night, so I apologise, I misread those stats. Just to put it in the context, that's 40% of the acts of violence that took place per year, happening in the November period, so the vast majority happened in November. I apologise for that, Mr Finlay. Okay, thanks very much. I think we're going to bring in Jamie Greene. I think you've maybe got a couple of questions for Alistair around the review group. I'll just hand it over to you. Thank you, and good morning. Don't worry, we've all had that crossing to deal with over the years. The old one and the new one, I should add. I just want to get a feel for the firework review group, because it's played an integral part of the formation of the legislation that we're analysing as a committee. Essentially, I just want to get a feel from you as to how we've ended up where we are in terms of the proposal. First of all, could you talk a little bit about the volume of recommendations that you came up with, specifically if they were unanimous decisions that were reached by the review group and if they were not, which of them were perhaps more controversial or indeed were decided on by a majority rather than unanimously, and if they were by majority by how much and who dissented from those specific recommendations? Thank you very much for that. Really, the genesis of that is, for a number of years, people have been raising concerns about fireworks within their communities, and things like social media, where you can immediately capture what's happening in your community, post it online and let the world see what's happening. I think that that type of activity has brought into sharp focus some of the very unwanted aspects around bonfire night in particular. There were calls coming for change, change was needed, and the Scottish Government went out, there was a public consultation. That consultation had a huge response, over 16,000 people, and overwhelmingly what the public was looking for is change for more protection from the harms, but at the same time there is that question of the legitimate use of fireworks and the enjoyment that many people derive from it. Following on from the consultation, it was decided to build on the types of proposals that were highlighted from that consultation. Key stakeholders across the health, veterans, local government, animal welfare, from the emergency services and from the industry were all asked on a voluntary basis if they would come together. I was asked if I would chair this group as an independent chair, which I was more than happy to do so. We had a broad group of people from interested parties. What we wanted to do, I mentioned this earlier, is move from many of the anecdotes and some of the dramatic things that you see reported in the media and through social media, and we wanted to create a strong and evident basis that we possibly could. We really started out by thinking, right, what are the options? What are people asking for? We ran a workshop, we had an options appraisal around all the things, looking at the benefits and perhaps the disadvantages that may arise if we took those actions. We worked through that systematically. Everybody engaged in this, and from that we came to, as you see, the number of recommendations. That is where most of the recommendations had their genesis from that workshop through doing that options appraisal. At that point, everybody really was consenting that the areas that we really ought to be focusing on. We took this forward. We continued to strengthen the evidence base. A lot of the data you have been asking colleagues in Police Scotland, colleagues in the Scottish Fine Rescue Service, also the NHS, the British Veterinary Association, we got all the evidence that they could bring to bear. If I am being honest, one of the challenges is that there is not always that much analysis and evidence out there, but bringing it together from so many different bodies that enabled you to lay that together to form a picture on which you could start to base your judgment. We worked through bringing in the evidence, giving everybody an opportunity to present their evidence for others to question it. Through that, we honed and toned, if that is the right expression, the recommendations that were coming through. When it came to the final report and highlighted in there, really it was the British Fireworks Association. They are the only people who could not sign up to it at the end of the day. We had a very broad consensus that those were the right recommendations. I understand their perspective. They are coming from as they are running businesses. They are a very responsible organisation, so is the British Pyrotechnics Association. They have brought a lot to the working group. They have pointed us into areas that we really ought to be considering. We found that extremely helpful. They have good codes of practice. We have tried to recognise all of that within the report, and that is why we have recommendations in there about doing business impacts, about having that concern around unintended consequences and making sure that the intended benefits are derived by looking in three to five years' time to make sure that the benefits are there and if there are any unintended consequences, how do we deal with those? Sorry for the long answer, but that is a broad approach. We absolutely had consensus with that exception that I have pointed out, but they did contribute extremely positively, and I think that they influenced heavily the report in a good way. Excellent. I do appreciate that that was a long answer, because you gave us the backdrop of how you have got to where you are. It required that explanation. A range of options would have been available to you. It strikes me, though, that is my only point of concern from the outset, that the industry that will be affected most by the regulation is the one that did not sign up to the recommendations, which is an odd place to be in. Equally, if you look at the consultation itself, given that the three strands are the sale, the purchase and the use of fireworks, it seems to me that the support is high around control of purchase using a licence scheme, sitting at 84 per cent of respondents. That winds slightly when it comes to use of fireworks and restrictions around that down to 67 per cent, and even further winds down to 64 per cent when you start to get around restrictions of sale of fireworks, which perhaps is where a lot of the issues came with the association industry. Is that not an issue for you that the people who will go out of business or most directly affected immediately by legislation do not agree with the way that we are proposing to tackle the problem? If you look at the support, even the loss figure, 64 per cent, is a considerable support for that change. It is well over half the population, so I think that it passes that test. Of course, we understand that people have concerns from the industry, and that is why we have made one of the recommendations to do that full business impact. However, you have also put it on the other side of it. Those controls are to ensure that people can still enjoy fireworks safely. We are not taking away that, but some of the outrageous attacks on emergency services and some of the harrowing evidence that we gathered in the form of case studies from the NHS. We are children who are maimed disabled for life. You have to balance that against it. In the report, we have recognised where the industry is coming from, but that is outweighed by the public support and the downsides of the misuse of fireworks, so we have tried to strike a balance there. I am absolutely playing devil's advocate because the evidence that we have heard on attacks on emergency services and the effect that they have in our community are abhorrent, and everyone acknowledges and accepts that. However, people will question whether we are using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Is there a reason why we are introducing laws to restrict across the whole of the population the purchase, the sale and the use of fireworks, when it is a minority of people who misuse and abuse those in the same way that people misuse kitchen knives or alcohol and the other ways in which third-party objects are used to fuel anti-social behaviour are we punishing the majority because of the minority? That is a very valid question that we will have to answer as we progress the legislation. It was something that the group absolutely wrestled with, because what they want as an outcome through the discussions is that we got the balance right on that so that that legitimate enjoyment that people have of fireworks could still be maintained, whilst at the same time those that would choose to misuse and abuse fireworks and create the harm that we see would be made more difficult. We understand that if people are going to choose to absolutely abuse something, it can be difficult to stop it. We absolutely want to get that balance right within the report. We do not think that it is a sledgehammer here. If you think about the fact that you are going to need a licence, you are going to have to do some online training, some of the evidence that we looked at, it was genuine people who wanted to enjoy the fireworks and had accidents with them. Some of those people, with a little bit of online training, a bit more forethought and not a spontaneous event to use the fireworks, will be safer in their enjoyment of fireworks, so taking that across there, we feel and really strive to get the balance right on that. Likewise, I will come back on a couple of points around injuries if we have time later on. I think that we are going to have some questions around the proposals, around licensing, so maybe I will bring you in, Russell, and then I will bring in Rona Mackay after Russell. We visited Blackburn on Monday yesterday and heard evidence from people about the problems there. There were adults effectively supplying young people with fireworks. There was a guy in a white van that apparently every year pops up and does a roaring trade, and another adult who apparently stockpiles on his own home. You have already referred to the fact that an outright ban would potentially cause a greater black market. I wonder if the licensing will be sufficient to stop Blackburn's white van man. Can I come in on this first? We also visited Blackburn. This is a community that has felt under siege in and around Bonfire night, and that community has worked hard with prevention and distraction to prevent local predominantly young people from getting involved in this. It is clear that somebody in the white van has seen an opportunity there. This is one of the areas where the industry was absolutely in agreement with the recommendations. Everybody felt that it was slightly confusing within the current legislation as to whether it was illegal to give fireworks to under-18s. The recommendation was to strengthen that and to clarify it, so there is no doubt that was intention behind the recommendation. If somebody rocks up in a white van and starts selling to young people, there is no question whatsoever that that is wrong in anybody's mind, and hopefully within the legislation there will be no question. That will make the role of colleagues in Police Scotland easier. If it is communicated properly, it strengthens the local communities, because they will understand that and they can call on the appropriate authorities to assist them in the right way. What about from a policing perspective? Is there a concern that taking any measures such as licensing, you are going to create a bigger black market? I think that what we need to be able to do is have the tools to deal with the problem. That is a key bit that we can use to try to make things better and to tackle a real problem. If we know that white van man in Blackburn is doing that, we can deal with white van man and stop it happening, because we know that is the root cause of the problem. It does not mean that we are going to stop every white van in Blackburn, it just allows us to get the right one and deal with that clearly. There is no ambiguity, there is no difference. We are on a particular focus to do something, so I think that power is really important in itself. In terms of the black market aspect of it, I think that that is something that we just deal with and that some people will choose to break the law as long as it is communicated and people are clear that what is acceptable, what is not acceptable, what is lawful and unlawful, then there will be no excuse and we deal with that. The starting point for me has to be that we need to have the tools to do it and we do not have those tools yet. I will bring in Rona Mackay. I think that you were looking to ask some questions around licensing as well, Rona. Yes, thank you, convener. I have a couple of questions that I would like to ask Alistair and Stuart and then a separate question for David. My first question to Alistair and Stuart, which has wrapped into one, is regarding the fee that is being charged, could that be seen as pricing people out of being able to enjoy fireworks if some people just simply cannot afford the fee? Second question, it was initially proposed that the licence would be valid for 12 months and now the intention is for it to be valid for five years. Five years being quite a long time, a lot can happen during that time and someone could, during that time, have a criminal conviction or whatever, does that concern you? If I could come to Stuart first and then Alistair. It's probably not within the scope of the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service to comment on the fee element of that, Ms Mackay. I think that that's probably more for Scottish Government and for the group that's being done. In terms of your second point about the licence period, I take and bulge your point in terms of there may be potential that somebody has a criminal offence within that period and that perhaps needs to be reflected in the licence, but again it's probably for my Scottish Government colleagues or my police colleagues to comment on that. I think that the first comment I would make on that is, in terms of the fee and the duration, the group didn't look at that type of detail, how do you operationalise the recommendations, that was something that a lot of detail work has to go on and my expectation and understanding is that colleagues that work within the Scottish Government would do that, but I think it is a point well made and needs to be considered appropriately in terms of people being priced out of enjoying fireworks. One of the biggest things that we would hope for is that people actually move away from their own private bonfire displays, if they want to do it then the balance should be right and they should enjoy it, but it's encouraging organised public displays where all the right safety precautions are there, the displays are often spectacular and we would hope more people would find that enjoyment down that route, that was quite a strong direction to travel but I think that the group we're all supportive of. David, if I could come to you feel free to answer those questions if you like, but I'd also like to ask you if you have any concerns about how the proposed licensing scheme will be policed, is this going to create a big challenge for you and if you've been having discussions with the Scottish Government on this, I'm not sure whether the owners would fall on yourselves or local authorities in that respect but obviously the policing of it, if somebody doesn't have a licence, I guess would fall to you. If I could have your view on that please. Certainly yes, just briefly on the cost aspect, I think fireworks are probably the definition of burning money literally, so I don't have a huge amount of sympathy for adding some licensing on to what is actually a very expensive thing to do with fireworks anyway, so I think that that's something that we've factor into proportionality of it, but also on the finance aspect it's important that we would suggest that there should be some kind of self-funding tie to this, that if we are doing this it should be able to fund itself because again with public services as there are anything additional is going to stretch us, that is the reality of this, so that there needs to be some kind of loop back in to support public services policing fire with the costs of implementing this legislation, so what that actually looks like, I'm sure there's people with spreadsheets who can give you that answer, won't necessarily be me. In terms of the licensing aspect itself, I think that one of the key things we have is about having the technology to be able to do so, and we're in a much, much better position now with the access to digital technologies and getting access to the some of the licensing information which we have in our own systems, so that there is a question we have in terms of just that interface between our licensing systems and the ultimate government licensing system and just making sure that we know who's doing what and what the protocols for sharing are and how that's updated and how regularly because this requires, if we're going to be stopping and dealing with people who have fireworks who will probably receive licences in a very short period of time and quite recently, we need to be able to be in a place where we can respond to that appropriately and know that for sure that they do have, they are accredited and dealing with that. I think that the other thing that we are quite keen to look at is just on, it's a necessary about communications again and it's covered in the control zones. We think there needs to be signage, proper signage in communication. We didn't really see much of that in the bill and I think that something needs to be developed a bit further so that people need to know that they can't use fireworks in a particular area and people need to know what the legislation is here so that there's a big communication piece here. Some people I've spoken to already have actually said that, well, fireworks are going to be banned next year and again that's the wrong message in itself so that I think that we need to get ahead of the game here would be my suggestion. That's a really good point. If I could just ask you, I mean this might seem a bit basic but just the practicalities of the scheme, I mean do you envisage your officers going up to someone who's having a firework display in a small village or whatever and saying, can I see your licence please? Is that how it's going to work? How will you know whether they've got a licence or not? I don't honestly know and I think we'll have to take direct from the chief constable as to how he wishes to deal with that. You know, but there's probably going to be a degree here of response to complaints and again I think that the people will respond to this by we'll have calls saying somebody's having a fireworks display and it's scaring my cat, my dog, whatever and we will then respond to that and at that point that's when it would be a check to make sure everything's in order and just as we do just now but I don't imagine we'll be in a position of going round and being, you know, proactive fireworks police in terms of. Okay, thank you very much. Thanks, convener. Thanks very much. I'll come back to your assault and then I'll bring in Katie. It was a quick question about licensing that I should have asked Gaelster earlier on, sorry about that. If these licenses last for five years, what would the mechanism be for having them revoked? What grounds would there be to do so or indeed has that been built into it? You know, would that just be for a criminal conviction or would it be for misuse or supplying others or something of that nature? I apologise, but again this is the detailed work that you know civil servants are undertaking at this moment in time and there will be other people that would be best placed to answer the detail on it. It was the principle and the concept of creating more control. We had evidence from other parts of the world where that had actually worked and that had shifted away, you know, from that spontaneous, if you're in the shops, you see a box of fireworks, you think, I'll just pick that up and then put in a lot of display for the family tonight. It was to try and create that shift away, you know, from that spontaneity because, you know, it's indisputable that fireworks can be dangerous, you know, either because people misuse them or they just don't understand how to use them properly. So it was to make it more of a thought through process and that's what the intent behind the licensing type. And of course when you start talking about licensing, you know, you need to make sure that you're excluding people who potentially, you know, through past behaviours are more likely to misuse them. That's, I would imagine, how it's been taken forward. So presumably needs something of that nature in it once it's developed? Yes. You'd agree with that? I would agree with that and that would be the thinking behind the recommendation that was made. All right. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks. I'll bring in Katie now. Thank you. And if I could ask a question perhaps of Mr Hamilton, who's already commented on the fee being charged, and has rightly pointed out that fireworks aren't being banned completely. So would he agree that the fee itself and the level of the fee could be seen as pricing the majority of fireworks users out of using and enjoying fireworks responsibly? I wouldn't say so. I mean, again, it depends what the fee is, but when you are literally sending your money up into the sky and exploding it, it's kind of that. That is perhaps in the luxury end of living in some ways. You know, it's, I think there needs to be a sensible approach to what, you know, let's not be too feared about what that cost should be. It should be something that's responsible for what we're doing and it's, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask people to, when there are other options such as public displays, there, if people choose to have that in a private event, then people will need to perhaps accept that there's a cost that comes with that. And I don't think it's unreasonable to do so, particularly, as I say, given the cost of these, of private fireworks. So perhaps it's down to the kind of groups that are being asked to pay this fee, would you say? It's, I think, if everyone's been asked to pay for it, then it just, I think it makes it quite clear that if you wish to do a private event, then that's something which you, it's up to yourself to sort of accept that that is part of the cost of doing it. Just as if I want to drive a car, I've got to pay for a driver's licence, but I can take a bus. You know, I don't have to do that. It's a choice to do so and it's not unreasonable to pay, you know, again, quite a lot of money for a driver's licence, but the cost of a car is quite significant. So I think it's just in terms of there's got to be a kind of proportional link there between the cost of, when we look at the cost of fireworks and the cost of a licence, it shouldn't be too scared about making it, you know, on terms of level. And do either of the other witnesses feel that they have any comments in relation to the level of the fee to ensure that perhaps some of the genuine collective organisations that are wanting to, you know, organise events aren't priced out, that, if you like, the legitimate and responsible use of fireworks is allowed? It's not something that the group looked at, so if I was making a comment on it, it would only be a personal comment, and I feel that I should represent the report here today, so apologies for that. I understand. Thank you. I'm concerned from my perspective, and I think that both my colleagues have made the point really well in terms of anything that encourages people to go to, you know, displays, organise displays, is a real benefit of that, you know, so of that, and the service fully support that approach. Thank you. I'm going to bring in Collette Stevenson. I think you're looking to ask some questions around the restrictions on use and supply, so over to you, Collette. Yeah, thanks, convener, and good morning to the panel, and thanks very much for your written submissions so far. In regards to the bill, it introduces various restrictions on the days and times when fireworks can be sold and used. I use content that the proposed restrictions strike an appropriate balance between allowing people to enjoy fireworks and seeking to reduce the misuse of fireworks, as well. In fact, I can put that question to Alistair first, and then Stuart, and then David. Thanks. Do you want to send someone in particular, Collette? She's just asked that. Yeah, thank you, panel. I'm sorry, convener, Alistair first and then. Yeah, yeah. Well, again, I do feel that it does strike the right balance in there, and the periods in which the sale of fireworks will be allowed are respecting, you know, the existing traditions, and there's an element of equality, diversity and inclusion in there because it respects other cultures, so it gives that opportunity. I think one of the biggest challenges that was put to the group is, if people know that fireworks events are going to take place, then they can take their own precautions. I know that you'll be taking evidence later from the British Veterinary Association, but the number of people that will go and visit their vet to get a form of malciation for their animals around that time because they know that things are going to be happening, so they can plan and they can take controls, they can take control of the situation, whereas if you did not have those restrictions, you know, those restrictions in terms of the periods of the year when the fireworks can be sold, then it's more likely that they'll be used and the disturbance element of it, the harm element of it will come as a surprise and can therefore be exacerbated, so that was a major thinking behind that, is to allow the wider community to understand when they have to take an element of responsibility so others can enjoy the use of fireworks appropriately, so that was a thinking behind it and I think we've got the balance right there because it respects tradition, it respects, you know, the diverse country we live in, so all can enjoy appropriately, but the unintended, the unexpected is limited. Okay, thank you. Okay, if I could maybe put that question to Stuart, do you think? Yeah, thanks. I think Alistair makes that point really well in terms of the impact of people and animals and obviously provides an opportunity to put in place appropriate mitigations for that. I guess my only concern with the timescales would be, and we've highlighted it in our submission, is the potential for people to stockpile or store fireworks between the periods where they can purchase them and I think that there'll need to be adequate detail within the license and the purchase and the selling process to make sure that that doesn't take place and certainly the service will provide adequate community safety engagement advice and guidance to make sure that that doesn't happen, but that will be the biggest issue for the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service to make sure that that doesn't happen. Okay, thanks, Stuart. Okay, if I could just ask David what his views are on that? Yeah, I think the timing's quite... The worst time to have the 5th of November is a Wednesday because you get the weekend before and you get the weekend after and trying to plan that from a policing perspective and as a former events planner we used to just hold our heads and hands over this one because when is going to be the bonfire night celebrations and that's the challenging piece so when you get a Wednesday it could go either way and actually easily goes both ways so you do need to have some flexibility within the legislation to allow you to cater for the Saturday before but equally the Saturday after, but I think where we would probably encourage things to happen would be having a hard stop so that it finishes, it shouldn't tail on, I mean if we go back to the cultural aspect of this, you know this is about, I suppose ultimately it's about blowing up the House of Commons, but you know this is a kind of annual celebration that needs, there's no excuse for it tailing on and once the kind of cluster of organised events finish then that's when it needs to stop and that should of course be preceded by the supply, it shouldn't be supplying fireworks after 5 November I would suggest because at that time you should know what you're doing and it stops at impulsiveness and again it encourages people to plan ahead and think about public events as opposed to private events. Okay thanks David and again I'm pleased in this question to three of you, a number of local authorities as well have questions whether these restrictions were necessary and proportionate and could you maybe outline why they feel that such restrictions are absolutely necessary and if I just go back to Alistair again there. We involve the local authorities you know throughout this process and they were represented you know via COSLA and we actually had some specialism from trading standards so I think we should also remember the role that trading standards play in all this and like all public services they have finite resource and it has to be prioritised so it does help that there's a finite period of time where they can make sure they do that and they work really hard I think they do over 650 visits during that bonfire period to outlets or selling them to make sure they're doing it legitimately. So it helps local authorities to prioritise their resources is what we considered certainly within the discussion and within the group and in terms of that proportionality it is about and we've got evidence from places like Berlin where they've introduced no fireworks zones etc at the behest of communities that it does make a difference in terms of meeting communities' expectations given them the opportunities to go to organised displays or appropriately licensed displays and not having their lives blighted by the misuse of it so within local authority areas with the consent of their communities what we think we're doing in terms of proportionality is giving them flexibility and options you know to take it forward so that you don't the term that was used earlier use a sledgehammer to crack a nut you know you focus within big local authority areas on the areas where you know history has shown you the experience has shown you that misuse is likely to take place and communities are asking for assistance and help okay no thank you I'm just wondering if David Thursture have any comments on that I know that both he's worked closely with the local authorities as well yeah perhaps just built building some of the points that that Alice has made there and not only the trading standards of to use resources over the period where fireworks are available or currently all the time my fire safety enforcement officers also have to carry out legislative fire safety enforcement and audits over that period essentially I have to divert them from doing for example care homes to doing shops itself fireworks to make sure that they're meeting the legislation and things like that as well so it's not appropriate use of my resources and having a finite period where fireworks are available allows me to do better resource management in terms of that that finite resource I think that the other part is around about the operational impact and operational planning for me where fireworks are available throughout the year and we could come across fireworks in any premise and in quite considerable amounts of those I've been to an incident where fireworks have been involved the storage of fireworks I don't want to go to another one and I certainly don't mind firefighters to be exposed to them because of the dangers that they pose and I'm sure people have seen similar incidents on on TV across the world where fireworks are involved so having a finite period where fireworks are available would mitigate the impact of that to make sure that you know that there's not large storage throughout the year of fireworks aside from those individuals and companies who are allowed to do so okay thanks okay yeah thanks just just briefly I think it's probably important to go back to where this all started and it was because of a problem and there's a problem in our communities across scotland where the communities were getting terrorised emergency services workers were getting injured and there was a big cry for for assistance and for a change and we can only do so much and this is about giving us further measures as responders to that to say we'll to deal with this problem and without those measures we're kind of stuck where we are and this is continuing to happen the same way same way each year now obviously with the pandemic that's that's changed things but even then there were events going on and so what we need there we really need these tools to allow us to tackle us and make a difference for our communities it's not something that we can do with the existing tool set okay thank you I've got no further questions thank you very much thanks very much we've got a fair bit of interest in this topic so I'm going to bring in Jamie and then Russell and then Fulton if you can make your questions and responses succinct because we've still got another couple of areas that we're like we're interested in exploring so Jamie thank you thank you convener um so the bill as proposed contains five periods of restrictions around the sale and the use do you think there's any potential that these might be deemed as quite arbitrary so for example they include religious festivals such as the Wally and the Sikh festival but they don't include other religious festivals for example such as Eid or Hanukkah do you think this might be open to challenge in the future and should the legislation therefore allow flexibility for other religious or secular organisations to ask for exemptions from the restrictions I think we tried to make it very clear in the report that we we understand we live in a multicultural country and respect for traditions of all should be foremost in the thoughts of of anybody taking the recommendations forward and if inadvertently people who traditionally would be using fireworks within their tradition have been excluded I think doing a proper impact assessment to make sure that all aspects of equality diversity and inclusion are taken into consideration would be the right way forward does anyone else have a view on that okay thank you and therefore as proposed because you talked a little bit about giving flexibility to local authorities do you think it would be beneficial therefore that individuals groups organisations religious or otherwise outwith of the sale and use periods that are defined in the legislation could perhaps on a local authority by local authority basis under the other measures in the scheme apply for exception for specific events for example I think of Edinburgh festival or Jubilee festivals or other types of dates and times and events that may happen outwith of these which may then therefore make it easier to cover off the issue of other people who may feel excluded from this very specific and narrow dates that have been included in the legislation would there be any benefit to that perhaps I think that the overarching drive is to change the culture in terms of that the use of fireworks to make sure that as I've said earlier people think about it it's much more planned and it's not as spontaneous and it doesn't give as much opportunity to those to access fireworks who may misuse them that's overarching drive in this in terms of you know the diversity and respect in that I think I've already made the groups and indeed more I'm not speaking for myself more view on that clear in terms of you know things like the Edinburgh festival etc then what I would really be encouraging there and it already exists as the organised displays in my understanding is that you know what we're not looking to we're looking to encourage that we're not looking to limit it this is more on you know the over the counter almost sale of fireworks so I don't think it would be restrictive and dealing with you know these fantastic events that happen in this great city it's it's not aimed at that okay thank you obviously I'm going to ask a very similar question to what Jamie asked so it's a bit of a damp squib now sorry about that the and I suppose it was the first parts who decides these these proposed dates this was part of the review groups decision making that correct well we made recommendation we didn't make decisions and I think what needs to be thought about and I know what has been thought about is what's the intent behind that recommendation and then how do you operationalise that how do you make it a practical reality and people I know are working hard within Scottish Government you know to do that and this is part of that process so if there's anything that's that that is not understood anything that has been missed there's an opportunity to highlight those and consider them appropriately I mean one thing that occurs to me is if you think back to when I was younger fireworks night was the only night of the year that fireworks were used new years become a thing there's various religious festivals now and in sort of defining it in this way the unintended consequence could be others come along and stake their claim to other dates in the calendar and in fact you're almost having a year round encouraging the use of fireworks is there not a potential for that there's always potential you know but I think the key for me in this is what is the intent behind it and whatever authority is given ultimately the responsibility to licence the sale etc they have to remember the the intent behind behind this and if they're going to make a decision to to agree or allow make that a conscious decision you know understand the benefits understand the risks but always remember that what we're trying to do here is allow people to enjoy fireworks safely but not but to limit the opportunity for misuse of fireworks and absolutely to limit the opportunities you know for people to be injured by fireworks even accidentally okay thank you thanks convener and good morning to the panel I've been damn squiddied but if that's such a term by by Jamie as well I'm afraid but I will I will pick up on the line of questioning which which is like others have had around about the the dates that they've been given because I do have some concern that these could be open to challenge as other members have said and I would like to be reassured as we move through the legislation that there's not something more we can do to help the the intent of this bit of the legislation so you know that I know local authorities are able to you know have organised displays and the like but do you think there's an argument for local authorities having more power in terms of setting specific dates for the area you know because I think is all three of the previous speakers have asked about this idea you know there is obviously other religious events in the years there's obviously one off events as well that might come up that might be important to people you know so I wonder if you've got any thoughts on local authorities having a sort of you know application scheme if you like maybe bring in Alasdair on that yeah again the the there is the opportunity for people to go to organise displays and for the local authorities to to allow those this is you know mainly a focus on on the you know across the counter sale to members of the public that is the big focus on on on this and as I've already said you know making sure that that a proper equality impact assessment and the other types of assessment that support that take place is an important way to make sure that nobody is is inadvertently excluded from this but the intent is is absolutely there to protect you know people from the misuse of fireworks from the injuries that fireworks can cause but allow them to to enjoy fireworks so anyway that the controls are taken forward has to absolutely make sure it keeps that intent behind any decision that they make and that decision has to be a conscious one based on the risks and the benefits okay thanks very much you want to bring in anyone else Fulton no I'm quite happy about that convener because I think the three previous questioners actually covered the the main thrust of what I was going to ask about as well so thanks okay thanks very much I'd like we're just I'm just watching the time and I would very much like to cover off the other sort of themes that we that we've got this morning around control control zones zones and pyrotechnics so I'll move on to control zones and I'll bring in rona and then Russell rona thanks convener just a brief question for me on it firework controls zones can you just clarify who decides those is it the local authority and are they guided by the local communities and and do you think they're realistic and unworkable is basically my question if I could come to allister first this was something that was very very much asked for by communities and we've already mentioned blackburn and we also spoke to communities in west pilton here in edinburgh and and when we went to blackburn they they absolutely felt that in and around bonfire night stroke season they were under siege they were under threat and so that discussion really focused on given that that the power of that's the right expression to the communities it should be at the ask of communities and you know because they they you know they want to live and enjoy their area don't they so so it was asked for by them and and the group thought that that is where the ask should come from that's where the power should lie but obviously you need an authority to control that and it would be the local authority at the behest of the communities that was the thinking that that was behind the recommendation that went within there will it work and one of the challenges is a lot of the legislation that is being proposed is is relative has been applied in some other parts of the world other parts of europe and but in relatively recent times so doing the full evaluation of its effectiveness it does take time because things are very impactful in the first year or two and then they can drift you know we understand that so we recommend that we come back and evaluate you know in a few three to five years time and but certainly early evidence from from berlin amsrddam and if when they've put these zones in place is that they do work and and the communities benefit from them but that's the the early feedback thanks helister stewart yeah i think again it's another tool in the toolbox that can be deployed in particularly in areas where there's high operational demand in areas where there's been high levels of anti social behavior you know so the service with absolutely the work with the local authority and partners in police scotland is part of that preventative planning element in the community safety engagement to consider fireworks control zones and i think the other element of fireworks control zones is where there's potential for animals or veterans homes or whatever it may be to be impacted upon by by the noise of fireworks as well so it's not just purely about the anti social behavior element there's also that kind of wider community safety element there's not a danger of just moving the problem elsewhere and you know if people in a certain community are in a zone that they can't use them would they just go somewhere else you know i mean i guess that's a hypothetical question really but well hopefully we'd perhaps encourage it like we see before people to go to organised professional displays as opposed to having you know pop-up displays within within communities you know so it may be another approach to that thank you david yeah i'll just echo what the other witnesses have said i mean i think again in the core thing that that runs through our local authorities and our public services is you know the human rights aspect of this and it's going to be proportionate so we're not going to just certainly designate an area because there's going to be something that backs that up so i'm confident that we will get to position where we will where where these zones are used they're needed and that just goes back to that appropriate proportionality and another tool to allow us to get to the outcome which is trying to deal with a problem which we're all clear about and aware about and i think it's about helping these communities that way so it's not a a carte blanche okay thank you thanks give you another point to to this it's really just to underscore what stewart said about this is another tool in the toolkit and this is about you know trying to exercise a positive cultural change in in scotland and the approach to how people use and enjoy fireworks and the legislative aspect of it is extremely important it's it's probably the key tool but around that is also you know the education the prevention strategies you know there is a lot of other work that would complement the core legislation so that there's no one individual thing that will resolve the problem our problems there's no one thing that will exercise that that big cultural change that that positive cultural change that we're seeking it's looking at this in the round is something i feel that is is important so stewart made that point i felt i wanted to reinforce it because it was certainly something that the group understood and tried to convey in their final report thanks for that i know we're just a bit tight for time but there is i would like to just come in on a point in particular that you made alasdair as you know that we had a visit to blackburn and met with the bonfire night action group on monday and they spoke a quite a bit about control zones and a couple of the points that they made were around the sort of stigma of living in or near a zone but particularly in a zone and there was some sort of commentary around the issue of and i think rona asked about it around the issue of sort of displacing bad behaviour if you like so you have a control zone but it just essentially moves bad behaviour elsewhere so i'm just interested in if you've got any further comments on that and also from the policing side of things just what your thoughts would be on how they are policed so maybe come to you allister and then bring in david yeah the the last thing that that anybody would ever want to do is is stigmatise any individual or or any grouping or community and that is why i think it's important to understand it in terms of the control zones it should be the communities are the instigators of this and because because they then have the power and they understand the potential implications of it as well as the potential benefits of it in terms of the question of displacement and what when we went to blackburn one of the things that they actually told us is that people come from other communities almost bus into blackburn you know because it's developed that that reputation is it where for a place where there would be you know the opportunity to misuse fireworks and other types of antisocial behavior antisocial behavior so there is always a problem of displacement but that is why there is no one thing that will that will resolve this issue it is about trying to restrict you know those people that would seek to be displaced into other communities to abuse fireworks you know if you've got a licensing system that includes training if you've got restricted hours all of these things help the situation ally to the point that was just made earlier about education and you know about prevention tactics and distractions all all that type of stuff has to come together to mitigate against that potential for displacement of a problem on the displacement aspect i mean i think what we're talking about you people are people who are not behaving well so we've got people who are essentially causing antisocial behavior and in the blackburn people are traveling because they know there's going to be trouble and issues there the displacement think i don't think so much of an issue because it's not like if they're going to behave badly they're going to behave badly wherever they are i don't think that the the zone in itself will have much of a preventative aspect from those intent and causing problems what it will do however though is give us again that magic word the tools to be able to deal with those people appropriately appropriately and a robustly if necessary in a way that we don't have just now okay thanks thanks very much for that we'll just quickly move on to i think i'll bring in i'll have a look i think we'll talk about pirate techniques because we haven't covered that really yet now maybe a hand over to you or something sure i was going to ask about firework control zones if that's okay now during the consultation these changed name from no firework area to firework control zone and davis already referred to a bit of public confusion about what this actually means and before people can breathe a sigh of relief especially pet owners that the perception perhaps the name suggests there's no fireworks in this area but in fact they can be open to official displays and professional organisations i suppose it's twofold one is is it perhaps a missed opportunity should there have been in your view no fireworks areas and secondly given the nuances of this how important is it going to be to properly communicate it to people i think in terms of the last point any changes in a public awareness communication campaign with the right messages targeted at the right groups is essential and there's people that have far greater expertise than i have in those areas but when i've used them in a previous life i've seen the benefits of getting that right so i think that's absolutely right sorry what was the first part of question whether it was a missed opportunity not to in fact have no fireworks zones yeah um i think that that i keep going back to this when the group were looking at it was the intent behind it and getting that balance right between being able to enjoy fireworks and not suffer some of the the misabuse that the abuse that that can take place so this is where i'm speaking beyond the group here i'm speaking personally i don't think it's a big issue in changing that name because if you're going to have organised displays and that's communicated properly then people can look after the pets etc and it is safe much safer to enjoy an organised display so i think again it's people taking the intent understanding it and trying to get the balance right in the way that the the framed the legislation from the recommendations yeah that makes sense thank you do you want to just pick up on the pyrotechnics and yeah with some scottish police federation evidence about this in the written submission you talked about the need let me just find this sorry i think you've suggested that what's being proposed has been watered down what would you like to see reinstated yeah so initially and what went out for public consultation was an offence to have a pyrotechnic in a public place and that's what got the support there but i believe there was um after the consultation government came back and we feel it has been watered down to an extent in terms of its uncertain specific circumstances and those circumstances are going to sporting events or music events or processions and parades but that is that holds two problems for us first of all it doesn't cover all the eventualities and secondly it opens up by doing so a grounds for defence that we fear would make it almost unworkable and particularly in relation to sporting events and especially football the last thing in the world anybody needs in this country is legislation that is not good legislation when it comes to football so we want the simplicity of the public space what makes sense we have sympathy and understand the perspective as to so of course it needs to be proportionate and we understand the thinking behind the unintended consequences of deterring people like campers and sailors from having flares but i mean that's we think over exaggerated because a a lot of campers don't have flares and b why on earth would they have one in the middle of a city centre so it has to be about the circumstances the context and therefore the appropriate application of those powers and if i just trying to legislate it out causes more problems than and it risks spoiling good legislation for a problem that doesn't actually exist okay i suppose i'll start picking up on that particular point is it probably better to revisit that and have an absolute exemption unless you've got reasonable grounds to to possess these items and i don't feel competent to answer that because it was not within looking at this particular aspect of the consultation was not within the remit of the fireworks group so so we didn't look at it from that perspective apologies right that's i guess one for us to take forward okay thank you yeah i just picking up on that point um the shift seems to be or perhaps the problematic area is this move from possession of something in the vicinity of a designated venue to prohibiting the possession of a pyrotechnic whilst travelling to the immediate vicinity of a designated venue or public procession or public assembly and now public processions assemblies happen in the street in public places you know george square prince street traveling to or from that i mean it's so vague i think this is part of the part of the problem as anyone could reasonably say they were traveling not to that venue or not traveling to that possession and therefore that would be an immediate defence whether whether the possession of the item itself is not illegal but traveling the perception of traveling to an event is illegal so i guess it's that vagueness that you're trying to avoid it is exactly that and coupled to the the problem that's trying to address not really being a problem and certainly no evidence of that it actually risks disproportionately undermining the legislation to the point that it makes unworkable and that's our concern here with that is keeping us public space and having the reasonable excuse clauses in place give people the protection that they're not going to your camper anyone who's got a fflair on a inverket marina is not going to be getting charged under this offence they're not going to be there be no action taken about that it's entirely reasonable the context of it just as campers you know who have currently have axes and knives we don't we don't have any interaction with people it's the context that matters to achieve the outcome so i guess trying to fix a problem that we don't think exists and causes problems thereafter these are probably questions for the minister to be honest but i get the impression that the problem they're trying to fix is people chucking fflares at football games or perhaps certain releases processions so there have been problems so there currently is legislation for dealing with fflares and pyrotechnics in football grounds the problem of course is that there's two issues first of all is that the mulling feel like where we know that some fans are encouraged to younger fans are encouraged to take pyrotechnics in for others as a kind of right of passage and we're needing these types of interventions and tools so the again looking at further upstream if you like so rather than dealing somebody at the gate of a stadium which is where we're currently at we need to have it further away so we can deal with people earlier on if we have intelligence and again that's happened in the past so the legislation goes the right way in terms of these designations but where it does cause problems is that if you do intercept somebody let's see outside their house because you have intelligence that they're coming with a whole lot of pyrotechnics to football ground all they need to say is I'm not going to football ground and that's the problem and even right down at an officer's perspective as to can I search this person do I we're in doubt at that point straight away much simpler just to have the uh much more general power that's helpful feedback thank you okay thanks very much um I think we'll just have to wind things up um but I'm just wanting to bring you in if you've got any final comments because I think it's an important subject to cover Stuart yeah I think just as I said at the outset you know the the service fully support that has moved forward with this legislation it will undoubtedly be you know another tool in the toolbox another step change to change in the culture associated with the use of fireworks and along with all the really good work that happens every year in terms of preventative and community safety engagement it will certainly make communities safer but really importantly to me it will make my firefighters and my my colleagues in the emergency services much safer as well you know and unfortunately we do have incidents every year we have house fires on November the 5th because fireworks have been misused put through letters but stuff like that I would like to be able to to stop that from happening along with my my colleagues okay thank you very much thank thank you all for for joining us today I think that's been a really useful session we've covered a lot and so we will now have a short break just to allow witnesses to change over thank you very much thank you welcome back everybody our next item of business is our second evidence session on the fireworks and pyrotechnics articles scotland bill and I'm very pleased to welcome to today's meeting Rob Holland acting director of the national autistic society for Scotland Lorraine Gillies chief executive of the Scottish community safety network and Gillie Mendes Ferrera head of education policy and research of the Scottish society for the prevention of cruelty to animals so welcome to you all we very much appreciate the time that you've taken to join us this morning so I intend to allow about an hour to an hour and 15 minutes for questions and answers so if I may we'll just move directly to questions and I'll open up with a very general initial question and I'll maybe come I'll just work my way around the room I'll start with Gillie and then Lorraine and then Rob so it's really just to ask you to outline a bit of your own experience and involvement in issues around fireworks and pyrotechnics articles and whether from your perspective you feel that the legislation that's being proposed and the provisions of the bill are the right step at the right time if you like so I'll start with you Gillie okay thank you very much and thank you for inviting the Scottish SPCA today and certainly the Scottish SPCA feels that this is heading in the right direction we obviously have our animal helpline open every day of the year we do receive concerns from members of the public more so looking for advice to help the wellbeing of their animal we have a number of animal rescue and rehoming centres where we actually see the direct impact of fireworks and visually see the impact that's having particularly on the dogs in our care I would say we do give a lot of advice throughout the year but having is quite hard at the moment the challenges for a lot of people is the unpredictability of fireworks so they can't put the preventative measures in place that they would like to when you have fireworks going off quite randomly and also when these fireworks go off in the air places such as our rescue and rehoming centres so we feel that this bill is certainly covering a lot of the concerns that we have when it comes to the use of fireworks and so we're very much welcome it at present okay thank you very much lillian i'll just come to you thank you and thank you again for letting us come along so we are a member organization our members are typically large organizations that are working in the field of community safety and we've been doing quite a lot of discussions and consultations with our member organizations on this we were part of the initial consultation we supported the Scottish government when the initial consultation was happening back in the day when you could speak to actual people in community centres and then I was on the fireworks review group with gillie and a bunch of others we support the community wardens network and we also support the antisocial behaviour officers forum so we have got quite a lot of links into the organizations that are working on the front line around antisocial behaviour and fireworks i think in terms of the measures in the bill i think that i'm confident that we've managed to achieve the best we can within the within the framework that we're operating in i was very conscious of the amount of input into the exercise the consultation and i think we had an awful lot of interest from members of the public and i think that was really interesting i think the measures are proportionate i think that they will keep people safer and that's the primary issue for my organization i do think so that the bigger picture around antisocial behaviour is something that we really need to think about separately for me as a mum of a child whose birthday is around bonfire night it was traditional in our family to have some fireworks and it wasn't until that we got into the whole thick of it you know and i just realised the extent of the antisocial behaviour you know and the real awful situations that people are living in and so i so whilst the measures that we have in the fireworks and pyrotechnics bill i think are entirely appropriate i do think that we have some work to do around understanding antisocial behaviour and what approaches and mechanisms we might have to to do something differently there so thank you thanks laryon rob yes and and thank you for inviting us to to give evidence one in 100 children adults in scotland are autistic and i think just for the purpose of this discussion i'll talk a little bit about autism and the impact that fireworks might have on people autism itself is a spectrum and that is to say that each and everyone's strengths and challenges vary quite considerably and some of those people need around the clock care and support while others live fully independent lives with very little in the way of support and it's more about a bit of understanding and autism itself is a widely understood term by the general public but there's a lot of myths and assumptions and mistreats about what is autism is and the impact that it has on on people so people often think about the challenges around social communication and social interaction particularly with non-autistic people but perhaps think less so about the sensory sensitivities that some not not all autistic people face so that might be a heightened sense when it comes to touch taste sound light for example and fireworks by the very nature are a sensory experience quite an extreme sensory experience in some ways and that might be quite joyful for some autistic people but might be very distressing for others and so we routinely hear from families in the lead up to large cultural events or religious events that are celebrated with fireworks the stress and the distress that those can cause and it's not necessarily just an unpleasant experience it can be extremely distressing so we hear from autistic people and families who they simply can't go out the house when it's bonfire night for example or they have to do lots of things to kind of mitigate the experience so turning the tv up loud or even leaving that area and in some extreme cases that distress can lead to what are often term shutdowns or meltdowns when that person reacts involuntarily perhaps physically perhaps verbally and perhaps there are risks to themselves or those around them so and then just to echo a point which Lorraine made as well the the unpredictability around fireworks is is a hazard in and of itself so while a lot of families for example will go out of their way to create a very structured routine based day for their child which you know adds a great deal of comfort if that is interrupted by an unpredictable event such as a firework going off in a place where it shouldn't be going off and unbeknownst to them then that can be incredibly distressing as well so from our point of view we welcome the the moves to bring further regulation to this and limit their their use particularly in unpredictable ways thank you very much that that's really helpful if i can just come back with a couple of follow-up questions i'll maybe come to to you Lorraine and one of the things just touching on the issue around antisocial behaviour that we're very very aware of i'm aware that there is evidence around the sort of use and the unintended consequences or perhaps intended consequences of the sort of misuse of fireworks and i know from some of the information that we've been given that there is evidence to suggest that most fireworks injuries are actually take place at end up at private events they often involve young people they often involve young males and they seem to be the sort of group that are most at risk in that regard then if we're looking at how the bill responds to issues around antisocial behaviour and i think the other issue within that is around injuries to a lot of them are to into heads hands that type of injury some of which can be very serious do you feel the provisions of the bill would adequately support our efforts to tackle antisocial behaviour particularly from the perspective of reducing injuries i think it helps i don't think it's the complete answer i was staggered when we were i was in for example in Pollock Shields one miserable night in Glasgow talking to 65 people from the community who had come out to talk to us about fireworks and i readily admit you know i didn't understand the you know the depth of it and they were telling us really horrific stories of almost right of passage stuff happening with young people you know you know how long can you hold a lit firework in your hand you know stuff like that and and i was astonished by it and thought oh my god what do we do here so i think that we have to have the measures that we have in this bill i think that that's a very good starting point we need to have something to start with and something to give us some baseline information on i don't think it's the whole story i think that i've already said and i'm happy to go you know further and say that we really do need to think differently about antisocial behaviour my view is that when we know so much about trauma and aces and deprivation and hopelessness and poverty and the behaviors that that that are responsive to all of that you know i think it's no surprise to us that our young people do behave antisocialy and it's not just the young people i think it's worth making that point i don't want to go too far into the realms of antisocial behaviour because we're here to talk about fireworks but my organisation has completed some significant pieces of research just trying to understand what is happening in scotland around antisocial behaviour who is behaving antisocialy what is antisocial behaviour and it's not what you think and i was listening before i came in to Stuart talking about the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service seeing an increase in antisocial behaviour and i think that's reflected across the piece before Covid we were we had evidence to say that that was reducing but i think Covid has without a doubt you know been a part to play in it and and you know fireworks like i say are part of the culture in some communities it's part of what you do you know it's it's the game that you play and we really need to think about how we support those communities and individuals in those communities to choose different paths so restricting the use of fireworks restricting the access is is part of it but we i think we really need to think long and hard about what additional supports we can put in thanks for that coming to yourself chile and staying on the theme of antisocial behaviour obviously from your perspective i know when we touched on this earlier on was around opportunities for pet owners to perhaps prepare for bonfire night but obviously we're aware that fireworks can be used randomly so you can't always do that do you think there is scope and this is maybe slightly stepping outside the provisions of the bill but is there scope and benefit to maybe encouraging owners to seek maybe professional help in terms of managing their pets perhaps classic FM sedatives that type of thing but is there a work a bit of work that could be done around that yeah so we certainly all the advice that we put out is exactly that advice speak to your your local vet we know that the number of calming medications and everything that are prescribed it goes in peaks and troughs and the line with obviously when fireworks are going off we know we've done our own research with the effects of music and it's something that we use in our own centres and the biggest sort of things that we see through the helpline it's nothing not necessary to do with the organised events that happen your new year's fireworks and so on it's these ones in local communities when maybe there's also not been that communication between people who live in that community that they've given other people that awareness that they are planning on having fireworks and something and I know I've said this before to do with the bill it's good having all these different measures but the communication piece is going to be crucial for this to be effective you've got the enforcement side as well but that public messaging so that people actually understand the expectations and we will always together with other organisations which vet and association we all give very similar messaging we always regroup and make sure that we're not confusing the public with the animal welfare messaging that we are providing and that is really important because the simpler that you can make it for everybody then obviously that's easier for people to get the assistance they require and training animals I know that's been mentioned before you can train animals in lots in lots of different ways some are more trainable than others and I know there's been a lot of reference about training your dogs it's your responsibility to train your dogs dogs will react in different ways the ones that are in our centres we don't have that history when they come into it obviously when they've come into the Scottish SPCA's care they're getting rehabilitated and when you have fireworks going off that can actually put their rehabilitation process backwards and we can do lots of measures we cover the windows we put thunder shirts on the dogs for example these are a bit like when you swaddle a baby and you know it helps keep them hopefully feel a bit more secure but when we come in the next day in some of our sites we have discarded sort of fireworks, cartridges and debris in our car parks and you go to the kennel areas in particular and the dogs have defecated etc more than they normally would they've destroyed their bedding they don't want to come out when you've opened the hatch for them to come out in the outdoor run they don't want to come out and then the staff are having to go back and start doing that rehabilitation process and that's where that when you've had the community side of things in the community experience where maybe it's been a bit more off-guard or the fireworks have gone on for longer than you would anticipate during that time of year that's where it becomes a big issue for us and I know it's more about domestic but it's also livestock it's wildlife a wild animal doesn't know which way to run away or to fireworks livestock are the same and we give advice to those who are responsible livestock obviously if you have the opportunity bring your animals closer to your house but it depends where your land is that's not always an opportunity and we know from those who have horses again it can be quite challenging yes you can stable them is that the best thing is the animal actually going to get more distressed because they've not got that room to move away if they're in a field is the risk that they could actually break through fencing and then go on to a road cause a road traffic accident so there's all these things and I think that we have that responsibility you know of having that good communication so that people can prepare training yes can be one aspect but that doesn't work for all species so okay that that's very very very interesting covered a lot there i'm going to hand over to Russell and then I'll bring in Katie just to ask some questions about licensing yeah I mean I won't jump ahead there are issues I'd like to come back to about about licensing control zones and so on but in general terms we've heard from the police from the scottish fire and rescue and indeed during our visit to blackburn on Monday that this seems to be a problem that's got worse over the years over recent years and what seems to be perhaps lacking though is any any sort of measurement of that we've heard of incidents and fire fighters been attacked police officers been attacked and issues of that nature but I suppose it's a question for Lorraine do you have anything that does quantify the prevalence of firework use over the course of a year no we don't what we do know is it's definitely not a one-size-fits-all situation so so we do hear from some authorities that say this is a big issue for them and some don't consider it to be such a big issue but I don't have anything in the way of a collective amount of data that would tell the right story so there is you know you've heard this morning about attacks on emergency services there's good A&E data but that's not you know complete enough to be able to to give us a sense of what the issue is from the perspective of the SSPCA I guess you may not have measured it in any way but you know it to be the case you've experienced a significant rise over the years I would say over the last couple of years our clorates have been pretty stable when it comes and it's many advice calls if you see any whether it's linked to social behaviour or what have you a physical attacks on animals that's quite few and far between and I am pleased to say so generally it's more advice where people are witnessing that animals are in distress in a field or particularly for their own animals but quite we just see the peaks but you're talking about 12 to 15 advice calls around the bonfire night period which you wouldn't normally get maybe at other times of the year specifically to fireworks presumably it used to always be around bonfire night and now there's other dates in the calendar where you're getting distressed animals is that yeah so the date range is broader now um so traditionally you would see yep you'd expect pre-empt in the helpline bonfire night it's going to be busy we're going to get lots of um calls with people looking for advice that window has expanded because of when fireworks are available for purchase and obviously when people choose to use them so you do see that and that's where it makes it much harder for people to prepare because it then becomes more unpredictable because the window's longer thank you okay okay thanks very much Katie would you like to come in and then I'll move on to control zones and I'll bring in Rona Mackay thank you very much the intention of the licensing scheme is to reduce the inconsiderate use and misuse of fireworks have you had the opportunity to look at the proposed licensing scheme and do you think that as presented it's likely to achieve its outcome and what concerns do you have that individuals who intend to misuse fireworks will just ignore the scheme and carry on maybe if Lorraine would like to come in on that first I'm just looking back for reference to what we gave in terms of the evidence I mean I think that there are some opportunities with the licensing scheme I think you're exactly right you know that that we know through history that there will be individuals who just don't want to be licensed or controlled in any shape or form that again is back to my early discussion about culture and and antisocial behavior and and and there are people that will behave in that way because that's that's what they know that's that's what they do I think the licensing system is a start I think that it's it's been a really positive thing that we can introduce is a set of measures I think there's something about safety courses that we might want to think about differently I think these things we can we can do I think we have to be very careful about digital access and all that sort of stuff but I definitely think that there's there's something we can do in communities with community groups interestingly jillie and I were talking before we came in about the power of communities and the power of individuals to be able to take forward some of the mechanisms that are in here and we discussed that that's very difficult to you know to to to to make you know happen because very often it's about individuals taking responsibility and stepping forward and I think I think that that's the kind of situation that that is and I think that's no different to any situation that we recognize you know there will be people that comply there will be people that don't comply but to have the measures that we're suggesting is a start and is good thank you jillie I don't know if you'd like to come in on that yeah so I think yeah definitely the licensing is a good start I know this mention of an online training course obviously education is part of my remit as well and we have to recognize that barrier to technology that people have different learning styles that you would probably need to invest more in those targeted approaches within communities and learning from those communities and how best to action that we do run a multi-agency schools campaign we've run it now for two years and we'll be running it again this year and again it brings back to that point of having that consistent messaging so part of that group is Scottish Fan Rescue Service it's Police Scotland and others to make sure that that communication to young people we're all saying the same thing so it's not just about animal welfare it's covering the human side it's covering even like the debris that's left how to be responsible how to be safe don't bother to peer pressure all those types of things so I think we've learned a lot running that for the last two years and that'll be something we will continue to do but certainly the learning course that accompanies the licensing shouldn't be a tick box exercise it needs to have clear outcomes and it needs to have the adaptations in place to meet different people's needs and meet that diversity that we have in our population Rob yeah I mean just to just to build on what what's been said what you know we're supportive of the proposals are set out in terms of licensing but what what goes alongside that I think is equally important here and and for us it's going back to that point I made earlier about the fact is that the vast majority of people just don't know about the impact that fireworks and particularly you know unauthorized use of fireworks has on autistic people so it's it's how it's that broader message about how do we communicate that so that people understand the impact and that you know we would hope they would make different decisions in terms of training whether it whether it be online whether it be offline I think you know our our experience is that the most powerful training is training delivered by autistic people themselves talking about their experiences and the personal impact that is had on them or families talking about the impact on them as families and their children that is much more powerful than a tick box or a module or written examples thank you okay I think I'll hand we'll move on now to control zones I'm just keeping track of of the themes that we're looking to cover and I'll bring in Rona Mackay and then I'll come back to you Russell Rona thank you thanks convener good morning panel yes can I ask your opinion on the firework control zones that are being proposed and and how effective you think these could be in reducing for all the people and I'd also like to ask the question of if you think there's a danger of displacement i in a community where which is in has a control zone in it would the anti social behaviour just moved to another area and perhaps Lorraine would want to ask I'll come through first Lorraine and then and then robin and then Julian I suspect that is a possibility need to be very clear about that I think the establishment of local control zones though is is potentially a useful tool a useful mechanism I think what's going to be critical though is the involvement of local communities in those local control zones and achieving their support to make this work and what I've learned is that there are people in communities that really want to make a difference that really don't want this to happen in their communities and identifying those people and engaging them in the process is is absolutely critical yes we do know you know that young people or or older people or anyone who has a need or a want to cause a disturbance will will manage to do that you can start a fight in an empty house if you want to do that so that will happen I think that's probably you know going to happen but I think knowing that at this point and being aware of that and raising that as a clear unintended consequence is something that we will have to be very careful about and and keep a close eye on we work with 32 community safety partnership leads and elected members across scotland and and we are able to have those discussions we meet with them on a monthly basis and fireworks is a hot topic always is a hot topic and no matter what time of year so we do have to keep an eye on it there's no question thank you thanks to rain rock rob is there any is there any kind of planning that you can do in any way for for you know the days in November and other days when you know there's going to be a lot of fireworks and do you think the control zones will have an effect well on control zones um we welcome those proposals um I think it will provide some reassurance to families um and autistic individuals um certainly I think the key is as Lorraine said it's about engaging people locally in that discussion and engaging with autistic people families and organisations representing them so that their their views are fully um listen to um in terms of your your first question around um uh how can families potentially prepare for you know organised by work displays um we we have produced some guidance on that for families which is something that that they've been calling for for for some for some time and so you know that guidance has a has a range of things for for people to consider so whether that is um for those that actually want to attend the fireworks display but uh want to take various precautions in in doing so um there are things that that can be done that work for some people not everyone so for example ear defenders for those that are particularly sensitive to to noise um we encourage and families to um plan well in advance um and have an idea of what's going to happen when it's going to happen what it's going to look like that kind of thing so that there are no surprises um for um that that individual all that child um and some of this is about the organisers as well what steps can they take to make a fireworks display as inclusive as possible so providing lots of information up front perhaps having a quiet place that that um you can retreat to um if if necessary so there are some things um that that can be done and of course some autistic people and families enjoy fireworks displays um and so there are steps that they can do to make it more um comfortable but the reality is all those steps that you can take and all those things that you can prepare it's still not going to work for for everyone so I think the you know the the concepts of a a control zone where um they are much more limited is will be hugely comforting for a lot of families thank you thanks rock jelly yeah so again certainly very support of the control zones it gives us that opportunity to help safeguard the welfare of the animals in our care um for instance again it comes back to the unpredictability if we know fireworks are due to go and we know this particular animal in our care that is extremely sensitive we have the opportunity then to move them to another location within the centres or even between centres trying to do that instantaneously can be hard we have obviously biosecurity measures and things depending on what's wrong with the animals as well that we have to take into consideration it's not as easy as just taking an animal out of a kennel and taking it home with somebody because it's fearful the fireworks you know there's lots of planning and contingencies that we need to put in place I think the fire out control zones will be hugely beneficial and likewise doesn't always will work for everyone the measures that are in place animals are just as individual as people are um but I think anything that we can do to to put in place those preventative measures are going to have a positive impact and allowing that opportunity for people to plan ahead um thanks jillie could can ask you um in particular um I mean animals don't enjoy fireworks I think that's a given um would you have preferred to have seen an outright ban on fireworks uh from your organisation's point of view would that have been preferable it's interesting I did sit on the review group when we spent and at the moment we spent a lot of time talking about should there be a ban and the impact that is my concern at the moment is the unintended consequences of that would it just drive traffic we've seen it with the puppy trade which some of you have engaged with us in organisation we've seen tightening up on online sales does that drive to other issues and we've seen lots of issues in that space and I see that particularly when you've got something where you have got that online sales um network which is quite hard to control um I would be concerned at this stage unless that research has happened to look at the unintended consequences about pushing for a full time ban just now thank you that's interesting thank you computer okay thanks very much I'll hand over to Russell yeah the consultation shows overwhelming support for what was described as no fireworks zones with 83 percent backing that now these changed their name at some point from no fireworks zones to um firework control areas I think um now in the sspca's evidence you suggest that it should revert back to that original description that there should be areas where there are just no fireworks there shouldn't be the allowance for professional displays to come into these areas is that something that you can expand on and is that something that robbs organisation would also agree with so we have got some particular centres um I'll give example of our codonal centre um in Glasgow um which is our largest site and we have a lot of animals in there we have a lot of animals who have been through court cases and will not themselves and but are subject to court cases um that is a zone that despite the staff's efforts and despite going out engaging with communities trying to do that uh communication piece we can't seem to get past that point where it's not having a negative effect on the animals in our care due to the size of the site um so that for example would be one that we feel you know that that should be one that comes under these firework control zones there will be other areas as well not necessarily relating to animals um but might relating to and and Rob might expand on that um I know that we've mentioned to do with your some care homes or those where there's sites of people who have struggled with um PTSD and things like that um and that certainly would be up for those organisations to say that but it's a matter of that is the concern about displacement if it's not in that zone because that's a no zone where do those people go the links with the antisocial behaviour um but certainly for our perspective there would be that are some of our sites that we would see you know that should be all year round thing yeah um yes we would support that I mean the as you know hopefully I've articulated the the impact of fireworks can be extremely distressing um so you know if if a family was to be able to make a decision to live in an area which was and you know there would be no fireworks guarantee it you know as far as possible then I imagine some families would would take um you know the initiative to to live in that area um I think without without a doubt I think um you know there may be um the the phrase firework control zone may lead people to the assumption that there is not going to be any fireworks there and my understanding that there still might be fireworks within firework control zones so I think um that that could create some confusion there um which which could in turn lead to you know whenever those fireworks are used then that's the added unpredictability there for that that family to to deal with yeah thank you it does seem to be you know there's the absolute ban which is impractical and wouldn't work and then there's the free for all which isn't quite where we're at just now and and this is almost the worst of both in that it doesn't solve the problem but I don't know what the answer is so thank you if you got any thoughts on that please enlighten us I think it's heading in the right direction it's very hard when you there's a lot of measures there was measures that introduced obviously last year which I don't think we've probably seen the the true effects of that yet you add these on top um and I think I keep going back to it is the partnerships it's the communication you know and working together to solve quite a challenging issue which has a lot of different viewpoints um and I think I learned a lot through the fireworks review group certainly from the NHS and others who are part of that group and and seen different sides um so I think this is certainly a really good place that we've got to at the moment with what we could what's in within control um I know that we've mentioned things about packaging and decibels and things like that as well but that comes back to the sale and the products and and so on which not necessarily within um this scope so certainly I think it's heading in the right direction and we need to also look at how we track the impact of these different measures thank you very much okay thanks very much I'll bring in Jamie and then I'll come to Fulton to pick up on restrictions on use and supply so Jamie thank you um and I hope Fulton I'm not taking your next question because I have no idea what you're going to ask but I'll try not I'll try not to do that again but um I guess maybe I'll have a similar line of question to the last panel and that's that you know the majority of people use fireworks safely the majority of people enjoy their their use and the majority of people do not purchase or use them with the intent of causing violence or harm to others or indeed engage in anti-social behaviour so there could be an argument that we are restricting the sale purchasing use of something because of the actions of a minority in society who don't respect the rules of normal social behaviour or indeed the law I just wondered what you'd say to those people and particularly we've had evidence from people who actually sell fireworks small businesses normally family run normally quite traditional who say that actually that's the best place to be selling fireworks is in that controlled place where they know who their customers are they can see them they can check for licenses if such a scheme is in place and they can check for people's age and identities and so on and make individual personalised decisions whereas if they simply go bust because we've shut down their business or restricted it to the point of making it inconceivably commercially viable um then that will will fuel that black market that none of us want to see I just wondered if anyone had a view on that perhaps Lorraine First and then jelly and others I am acutely aware of the consequences that this will have on people who work in the fireworks industry and and they have my absolute sympathy this is not about banging people on the head and restricting their their lifestyles but I was one of those people who liked fireworks and I still quite like fireworks but having been involved in this piece of work for a good few years now I have been struck by the amount of damage and and chaos that the fireworks can cause we've had the debate about illegal fireworks illegal fireworks all of that even with the best will in the world families using fireworks there are some real safety issues these are very dangerous things in the hands often of small children and young children fireworks being put through letter boxes fireworks being put into exhausts of cars fireworks being lobbed across the street at people there is no doubt in my mind that these are dangerous things and we need to do more to keep people safe from the unintended consequences of them and and and that will have economic impacts on people who work in the industry and they have my absolute sympathy about that but the the primary purpose of the Scottish Community Safety Network is safety keeping communities safe and we 100% are behind the work of the the fireworks review group and the the measures that are put in here because the consequences of damage from fireworks are life limiting in fact fatal they're they're not I have changed my view I won't buy them then it just won't happen I'm just completely changed on it that's interesting but I mean sure if for example the other point of the license is that you had to go through some hoops you know whether it's training or an online course as is the case with the purse of other things I mean there's no online course for example in kitchen eyes but they're hugely dangerous there's no online course of wine alcohol but it's a problem in society which fuels social behaviour I just wondered why that in itself would not be enough why we would have to go to the point of effectively closing down industry to tackle the problem I don't think that we are talking about closing down an industry I think what we're trying to make sure happens is that people are able to access these things should they want to safely what I also was struck in the whole consultation is the number of community groups that were coming saying we the fireworks are brilliant for our community you know we all get together we all enjoy it we fundraise throughout the year it's fundamental for our community it's part of who we are please don't tell me you're going to stop that there's absolutely no interest in stopping that and nor should we earn nor could we it is primarily about safe use of fireworks and it's not at all about stopping point blank the use of fireworks because that would not be appropriate there it you know I've said clearly that that's not something I'll be doing I won't be buying fireworks for personal use again but I may well go to a local community event because there's a huge amount of value in that yeah I'll probably certainly echo what Lorraine's saying you know I think the organized events where you've got the professionals there they've set everything up communities have all the right safety measures in place is the private use that causes the concerns and the issues it only takes one firework to actually affect quite a large number of people so I can understand concerns about you know it's going to affect livelihoods on it for those who are in the industry but having that responsibility of the people who want to do it right are coming in they're asking the right questions they're getting the licence they're doing everything that they should be doing and having those conversations it's the ones that and we've spoken about antisocial behaviour the ones who no matter what you put in place are they going to follow it are they not it's links back to that private use aspect and that's what causes the biggest challenge so you have to do something to tighten that up so that you cannot have that impact that we see whether it's animals whether it's humans from even just one firework in the distress that calls and if it's going to help save a child not losing their hand a dog from running on the road things like that then we have to take that into account because that's also part of the community that are voicing their opinions on this. Thank you and a dog running on the road is the most terrifying moment of your life I can very sure that it's horrific. Rob I just wondered if you had any comments on my points? I think most of the points have been made really I mean just to echo a couple of them and we're we're certainly not calling for you know organised fireworks events to be to be banned because we recognise the significance and those the cultural and religious celebratory significance that those play and you know many autistic people enjoy those experiences and a part of those but it's the it's the you know that kind of unpredictable use of fireworks which we are particularly concerned about and and as I said earlier you know a lot of individuals or families will go out of their way to create a safe structured day and when that is interrupted by that type of thing it can be hugely distressing if a child is on their way back from school with their family and you know firework is is let off then that can be quite a traumatic experience which then becomes connected to their journey to or from school for example so we completely take the point that you know fireworks play an important cultural role in society and we're not calling for an outright ban but it's more the kind of haphazard unplanned antisocial use of fireworks which which we're particularly concerned about so that's our reasoning in terms of supporting this. Thank you that's also very helpful and of course it does get dark quite early in winter so more likely to see them in the sort of time of day that you you talk about so that's interesting. Thank you. Thanks very much. I'm going to bring in Fulton MacGregor just to pick up on issues around restrictions on use and supply over to you Fulton. Thank you for that and good morning to the panel. You may be heard in the last panel session there some of the questions around this because there was quite a few of you said questions and it's around the specific restrictions that are proposed in the in the bill and that's around the the limit of the days and times when fireworks can be sold and used so do you what do you what do you think of these I suppose quite a general question what do you think of these and do you have any concerns about the legislation specifying certain days are we to take in any order? Lorraine you want to come on that? So I think what will be helpful is enabling better deployment of resources particularly emergency services I think that that has got to be you know one of the number one benefits of the restrictions of use times. I don't think we can ever get it completely right. I think the attempt at putting dates and times together is an attempt at just trying to bring some order to what can be quite chaotic. We've already talked about fireworks can go off at any time of the day night week year month you know that's we've moved into sort of constant you know firework alert mode particularly for animals and for disabled people. So my view is that this will help on resource planning and it will help with at least trying to identify and deploy resources at the right time in the right places. Fulton do you want to pick up on that or? Yeah I mean I think that that is one of the main key benefits and you know I fully understand why certain days have been put in that will allow not only emergency services to prepare but also it will allow as we heard quite articulately in the last panel it will allow owners for example of pets to prepare maybe to not be in the area or to you know seek alternatives medication and such like I think was mentioned. So I do understand that the worry that I do have and I know that other members do share is that you know by specifying dates you actually go into a you know anirwina of you've not specified other dates such as other religious festivals and other events that may be important to people. So I think that you know that that is the concern that we that you know that I have and what I want to do with this legislation is make sure that if there's any way we can improve that or make sure that it's not open to some sort of challenge in the future then you know that that's our job. But I'm wondering Rob, have you got any thoughts on the specified dates? How do you think that impacts on you know people that people that you do often with? Yeah I think as as I touched upon earlier a lot of autistic people and families you know they need to do they need to plan and prepare for when there are going to be fireworks and so that whether that is whether you know they are not in not in the area so it's not an issue or whether they're taking kind of mitigating mitigating it by you know making sure that they've got ear defenders on on hand or turning the TV up or you know parents are kind of preparing and talking to their children about what's going to happen. So if you know fireworks the use of them is is limited to specific times of the year that does allow families you know that opportunity to plan so that can that can only be a good thing. Okay thanks. I'm actually quite happy to leave it there I think that that's been to really good answers and it's good to have that one record about these particular restrictions. Okay thanks very much. If I may before we move on I'd just like to quickly pick up on an issue that we spoke about earlier on and it was related to your questions Jamie about the impact on the fireworks industry and in particular we spoke about the fact that quite a lot of fireworks are sold by small local businesses and there has been some commentary around the potential perhaps for government compensation for perhaps businesses that are maybe what will lose out in terms of their income as a result of the legislation. I'm just interested in whether panel members have got any thoughts on the prospect of a compensation scheme and whether or not that would be something that you'd be interested in seeing. I'm not convinced either way I think that if a compensation scheme was to be happening it would depend on robust evidence of loss of earnings and loss of income and I'm not entirely sure that that information would be readily available. I do recognise that nobody wants to see small businesses suffer, nobody wants that to happen at all and my caveat would be if there is some possibility of being able to offer a compensation scheme based on actual income lost and evidence-based decisions then I don't see why that would be wrong but my concern is that this is quite a difficult area to be getting into and it needs to be fair and equal and those would be the parameters for me. I don't know if either of the other panel members want to pick up on that at all? I would probably just say the same obviously at any compensation scheme you know you need the evidence there and the consistency on how it would work as well and certainly if a business is going to lose out of this and that certainly should be considered. Rob any points you want to make on that? I don't think I'm very best well placed to comment on this I mean I think you know we would look at it from the other point of view and what is the impact on autistic people and their lives and their livelihoods and their you know employment opportunities, education opportunities and all the rest of this and you know hopefully I've tried to articulate the impact that this could have particularly on young people and if you know if you know unauthorised use of fireworks does lead to you know difficulties at school for example we know that a lot of autistic young people struggle at school and don't get the support they need to succeed at school exclusions are high employment rates are very very low and you know there are lots of different reasons for that and fireworks is not the main reason for that of course but it is one example of the kind of difficulties of living in a society that's not designed for autistic people and you know there can be incidences which lead to trauma which in turn you know can have a huge impact on education attainment employment prospects and all the and all the rest of that so while I'm not you know I don't want to comment specifically on compensation you know on the other side there is you know an economic impact I think on the group that we're advocating on behalf of. That thanks for that. I'd like to finish things off just looking a little bit at the issue around pyrotechnics but before we do that I'm going to bring in Collette Stevenson who I know has got an interest in the issue of silent fireworks so over to you Collette. Okay thanks convener and good morning to the panel. I just wanted to ask I know it's not within the bill in the remit of the bill but what are your own views on silent fireworks and why do you think it isn't actually featuring in the bill and maybe would you like to see it featured in the bill? Lorraine, could you want to pick that? Yeah when we were out talking to people a couple of years ago we were made aware of silent fireworks and we did look at silent fireworks. There's a much more use of silent fireworks in European countries like Italy and there is the kind of that that's a thing. My own view is why not to know that much of the problems around fireworks are the noise that's established but when you take that away I'm not sure about silent fireworks being used in that anti-socialy in the same sort of levels I just don't have the evidence and I don't have that information. We tried to find some evidence and information about that but it just simply wasn't there so I'm not that that's not particularly helpful but I'll hand over Gillian then maybe Rob? So again no it's certainly silent fireworks again it's the noise aspect is the biggest problem for animals you can screen off windows you know you can close stable doors and so on read the flashing side of things but it's the noise that is the biggest concern it's interesting actually because our Edinburgh site there's a local group and they are looking at using silent fireworks and came up and asked for opinions and so on which was really nice actually it showed that community communication so certainly again why not have silent fireworks there is growing evidence I would say there's not I think you need more evidence looking at the pros and cons of that side of things but certainly you've seen more of it in in European countries. Thanks Rob. Yes I mean you know the our concerns stem from the sensitivities that some autistic people have to noise and loud noise and you know fireworks make a loud noise so if they were to be silent that would undoubtedly work for some autistic people so it you know would would certainly make a difference I think. Okay happy with that Collette. It's like quickly to convener go back I don't know if it was Gillian Bob in the actual fireworks with your group and if so was that a was there any dialogue on that at all? Yes no we did speak about silent fireworks and we were trying to find that evidence and that was quite hard and Lorraine obviously say the same. It was one I think we did spend quite a bit of time actually speaking about the use of silent fireworks one of the things that ourselves have been speaking with BBA in particular is you know the packaging of fireworks can you change that so that if it is a loud fireworks that it has something like a risk to animal welfare you know so that from a consumer point of view they can actually make those decisions as well so I think there's lots that could be done in that space and certainly the silent fireworks should be considered I think we need to get more evidence as well on on how those can be used effectively. Okay thanks for that. I'm just going to finish the session just with some questions around pyrotechnics so for example the sort of flare type thing that we see at football matches and other events and really just to ask if you've got any particular comments to make on the provisions around pyrotechnics we've heard this morning from the Scottish Police Federation a bit about issues of public possession but it was really just to pose that question to you so maybe start with Gillie and then Lorraine and Rob. Yeah so obviously these devices again I'll say I'm speaking from an animal perspective at some of these events you may have police dogs service animals who are there to do a job their job's not going to get any easier if they've got things like that going off when they're there purely for crowd control and other things so you've got a large volume of people having devices in that context it makes no sense to have those there so certainly any restrictions around there we'd fully support. Lorraine? I'm just looking through some of the papers just to remind me I think that we deliberately didn't really make a comment on pyrotechnics because it's out with the kind of the range of the comments that we've been having with some of our CSPs so if it's okay I'm going to duck out of this question. Of course you're welcome to send anything in on that that's absolutely no problem Rob. I don't have an awful lot to add on pyrotechnics the comments that I've made on fireworks more broadly I think apply to pyrotechnics which can be equally distressing and can cause equal concern I think for autistic people and families. I think that brings us to a close thank you very much indeed for attending I think we've picked up a lot of very helpful evidence this morning so thank you and we'll just have a short break to allow our witnesses to leave. The next agenda item is consideration of the prisons and young offenders institutions coronavirus Scotland amendment rules 2022 and I refer members to paper five. The committee has previously taken evidence on this negative instrument and so I would like to invite any further views that members may have on it. The only one is just the obvious one and that is just to express concern that this is a negative instrument which is an issue that's raised before that the only way to deal with negative instruments are via nulling them in the chamber rather than the role of the committee being to proactively pass them which would be the case in the affirmative procedure so I would just simply feed back to the government that in future such sweeping regulations which we have taken bit of evidence on and not all of it's been positive at that that these things would should in future be dealt with certainly no least at the end of this extension could either be dealt with via other forms of legislation or via the affirmative procedure and on that it's worth noting that many members and those who we spoke to during the evidence sessions did raise a number of quite valid concerns about the nature of some of the provisions whilst understanding the reason for the extension and I think all all of us are willing to to give the government the benefit of the doubt on this occasion given the circumstances that we're in but that's not to say that we do so without those reservations still being in place specifically around those of the elongation of some of the time scales involved and also the the very restrictive nature of the the regulations that we're extending so I guess the overarching point is we were happy to certainly as a party support them but do so reluctantly and also noting the method in which we've been asked to do it reluctantly okay thanks very much collect I'll bring you in with an observation based on the papers that were submitted and it was in relation to obviously the restrictions that have been put in place I know that Theresa May has touched us just in its within the annex of the actual establishments and you know in terms of how they've used those restrictions in each of the different establishments but the one thing that I want to point out is that this is between October 2021 and February 22 I'm fully aware and I'm conscious of the fact that those restrictions have obviously been in place a lot longer in that and obviously to varying degrees within each establishment and again I just want to put on record my concern there for the mental health of some of the prisoners given that those restrictions have been placed but a lot longer and I'm very much welcome the you know the the breakdown of each establishment and what restrictions have been put in place but it has actually been going on for a lot longer and that's really all I wanted to comment on that thanks okay thank you very much just while we're online I'd invite Rona or Fulton if you would like to make any comments if you can maybe indicate that if not I'll just Katie have you got anything you want to yes and I associate with the myself with the procedural points which have been made in terms of the substantive issues we took evidence from the cabinet secretary regarding political oversight and I think it is important that we put on record that we do expect a high level of political oversight both by ministers but also by the Scottish Prison Service itself because obviously this is giving and has given governors significant powers and it's important that they are used with consistency that they're proportionate and they're necessary so I do think it would be helpful if this committee could put on record the importance of political oversight and particularly that the role of politicians not to make decisions as such but to ensure that the decisions that are making are consistent and proportionate and I would also include that committee in that and to pick up on the points that Colette is making that I do think this committee should be kept regularly advised of the decisions that are taken so that we're able to give that political oversight also okay thank you very much indeed for that I appreciate members comments on that and I too would certainly put on record on behalf of the committee that whilst we're agreeing with the SSI we do not want to see these powers remain in place indefinitely and that we would certainly expect to be kept updated on how they are being used and implemented okay thank you very much for that so that concludes the public part of the meeting we will now move into private session to review the evidence we've heard this morning and we'll take a short five-minute suspension before we move into private session thank you