 So, over to you. OK, thank you very much. Buenos tardes. I'm also from Fife, which is sunny. I didn't say very warm, but certainly sunny. I am Marie-Cruz Garcia. I am an expert in digital education. I also work as learning technologist at the Heriwod University. This session, it was aimed to be an online conversation around the job of learning technologies. How well value is the job of learning technologies? Our professional ranking opportunities for career development. And I wanted this session to be also an opportunity for us for reflection and really nourishing and cherishing ourselves as there are so many webinars, events around learning technologies and the different roles and duties that we perform as part of our learning technology role. But there are really no many webinars or events around looking at ourselves, our profession, why we ended here in this role of learning technologies and where we want to go forward in future. I think my colleague Fronal has mentioned that the session is being recorded. I wanted this to be a safe space where it's a conversation and I want you to engage with me and interact with me if you want and interact during this session. And if there is anything that you want to share or say in the event that you don't want to be recorded, I think it would be fine that we can stop the recording and then re-assume the recording if that's OK. And if you haven't done so, feel free to use the chat and just say from where are you, which geographical region or which country you are joining from. And as I say, feel free, feel relaxed, feel comfortable. This is a session for us, a learning technologist, just to discuss our professional role, our professional ranking. I just want to give some background of why I thought that these webinars could be interesting. As you know, last year, several authors contributed to the ALB block and they wrote a really good series about what makes a learning technologist. And I think those authors covered aspects such as the different dimensions or elements of the role of learning technologies, the duties and responsibilities. There was a really good blog post, which was my previous colleague, that was Caroline Namfield, about the career opportunities for career progression of learning technologists. At that time, and it was before COVID, I have written what it was going to be, the close short blog post for all those series, which was learning technologies, what is NETS, what was the opportunities for career progression. Obviously COVID changed partly that the progression roots that I have originally envisaged, which was very much the same roots that Caroline has already written in their blog post. I must say something that is not usually mentioned is why the role of learning technologies was created from which backgrounds we ended here. And I am saying this because if you look at other universities and other higher education systems across the globe, the role of learning technologies doesn't exist in many countries. I remember five years ago, in one conversation I have with the IT director of the University of the Ustó in Spain, which they were pioneering the competitors based system in Spain, he was telling me that he saw a value in the role of the learning technology and how this role was conceived and created originally in the United Kingdom around e-learning. But for example, in many universities in Spain or France, the duties or the responsibilities that learning technology fulfills are usually undertaken by IT or IT related people when the pedagogical duties or the pedagogical dimensions of the learning technologies were undertaken by academics, which is really interesting because I see them, the learning technology, the role as a kind of bridge between the technology and the pedagogy. But as I said, this webinar is really more focused on analyzing our professional ranking as learning technologies, how value is our profession and why it's valued in that way and what are the opportunities that we have for a career progression. Yes, I'm seeing that people are already contributing to the chat some easy. And I say, if there is something I'm missing or mentioned about the chat that can contribute to this dialogue, feel free to interact me and just let me know or you can, Emma can monitor the chat and there is something that needs attention. I just wanna share with you when we talk about the learning technology role and the role of learning technologies, how professionally we are value, we are respected. Because that obviously is gonna determine the opportunities for career progression. What we want and what this translates is how our value is, how much I'm paid in which grade and when in the scale I am. And usually this is determined by a here in most of the universities in the UK which is the acronym for higher education role analysis, which is a role analysis scheme. I don't know if you are familiar with here. That's what decide what is the professional ranking, the role and the scale and the grade of learning technologies. This is for many universities although there are universities that they do not follow the here a scheme. As you can see, as you have seen learning technologies usually appear advertised in higher education with a grade seven but a learning technology can be perfectly be advertised and be perfectly be a grade six. It might be also it could be a grade eight but grade eight there is a component or an element of proficiency of mastery of knowledge which is usually positions of senior learning technologies appear advertised as grade eights. I want to ask if you are familiar with the here a system if this is something that you have that you know in the past is something I'm gonna describe here very briefly but just wanna know if you are familiar with here and the elements of here that decides if a learning technology position can be advertised or is advertised as a grade six or grade seven. If you come please let me know. I have seen people who is connecting from other countries from Ireland which is fine. This is the here is basically mainly for British university but there are also some new universities around the world that they have also look at here for their own role analysis scheme. I know here very well because I used to be a quality officer at a university quality union which is the trade union for academic and professional staff in the United Kingdom and as a quality officer I used to be a member of the here panels in which senior management delegates from the different trade unions will look at the different roles when staff submit the request they consider that the roles has been incorrectly graded and they want a great usually a promotion of their role. So that's why I got to know here really, really well. I didn't look myself as part of those panels as many requests or many applications for learning technologies asking to regrade or to look at their jobs but I look at other roles from other colleagues and professions which also cover duties or responsibilities which are covered by learning technologies as well. Here has four teams or elements or components against which you match is a role should be classified as grade six, grade seven or grade eight. Those were the most common petitions for just regrading roles in grade six, grade seven or grade eight. You might have petitions for higher grades but they were unusual. I just wanted to raise your attention about the fact that during the lockdown and the month, the first lockdown in March 2020 there was obviously a profusion of job positions available for learning technologies and also for management positions too around the learning technologies. I was very surprised to see and I thought I was a bit alarming that some of the positions that learning technologies were advertised on grade sevens. Some positions that involved an element of management around learning technologies were advertised as grade seven. That was concerning but after looking very carefully about the Hira system and about the 14 elements that decide when a position should be grade six, seven or eight I must say that a learning technology position could be I'm not saying must be advertised as a grade six in as well as a grade seven and management position which was the next steps in our professional progression in our career management position around learning technologies in professional services could be also advertised as a grade seven as well as a grade eight. What this side that is, I am sharing with you the description of the 14 elements that comprise the Hira system. In this slide, which I hope you can see what I am doing is basically comparing the description for each of the grades, grade six, grade seven and grade eights for each of the 14 elements. I have summarized each of the elements, the descriptions. Those who knows the Hira system, you might say well, there are much more elements that the ones you show in this slide which is absolutely true but I really wanted to summarize because otherwise it would have been really very complex and long and I don't want to keep all this presentation around Hira. The key message what I want you to take away from this is the learning technologies in grade six, grade seven according to the Hira system and the different elements are very similar but what decides the different between the different grades are the learning technologies in a grade seven can teach and can train can also take a management responsibilities can be responsible for operational issues while learning technologies in grade six can still supervise but they cannot take any managerial responsibilities. So these are the first six elements of the Hira system and as I say is the description of the kind of duties and responsibilities that should be covered for a learning technologies in a grade six, in a grade seven and learning technologies in a grade eight which should be a senior learning technologies from these first elements what I want you to consider is the element of proficiency or the senior learning technologies is suspected management around learning and teaching to take a lot of responsibility for operational planning the learning technologies in grade six and grade seven still has an element of prioritizing and organizing resources but it's not responsible for this operational planning in particular for larger projects. There are some elements in which the descriptions of the duties and responsibilities expected for the three grades are exactly the same for example, in service delivery it's very, very similar to motivation. So as I wanted to show you is there is not really much difference and that's the problem when you are trying to recreate staff members or when you have application for recreating there is no such a big gap between these grade six and grade seven instead for teaching and training and the managerial task because a grade seven can undertake issues regarding performance and regarding annual appraisals but a grade six cannot take those duties. Grade seven, eight, sorry, grade eight senior learning technologies or managers in learning and teaching and learning technologies positions are expected to take initiative and take responsibility in complex projects. So the other elements, the other invention there are 14 elements in here and each of the 14 elements has a different weight. I didn't wanna show the different weight systems but I'm happy to provide those how the different elements are weight for those who are interested but these are the rest of the elements and as you can see in teaching and learning support, learning technologies in grade six can introduce students or others can provide some guidance and supports to the areas can provide information about a standard informational procedures but does not teach, they don't teach learning technologies in grade eight are not expected to teach a trained students or staff with learning technologies on grade seven they do as well, they do teach and train as well as senior learning technologies position on grade eights and finally knowledge and experience which is what usually decided that level of seniority because I remind again that senior learning technologies they can undertake management responsibilities but not necessarily and as a matter of fact there are position advertised as senior learning technologies that do not have any management responsibilities but what do they have is the mastery or proficiency or knowledge of their subject which is the 14 element which is knowledge and experience that's the element that provides that level of seniority for progressing in the learning technologies career or route when I experience learning technologies can be considered a senior learning technologies and when is not. So this is what I wanted to give you a general overview about why our roles are created in the way that they are and why they can be graded as in a grade seven or grade eight. I want to highlight something very important which is one of the progression routes which were identified in those blog posts and I also identified in my article is in management positions, management in learning technologies or technology enhance learning or whatever you wanna call it but I want to highlight this because it's important and in a situation of the economic after COVID-19 management positions around learning technologies according to Hira can be perfectly advertised on a grade seven because the grade seven also includes also comprised and I say this really is very important that a strong element of management of assigning tasks to others as well as engaging in performance a team management performance duty as well. So that's important that you consider when you are looking for career opportunities and career progression if what you want is to just move your grade to a higher grade to a higher pay scale for the sake of it or what you want is just to rather than doing more hands-on or support duties you really consider that you want to undertake management tasks and being engaged in management looking after operational issues or managing the performance of others. So until here and before I move to the next point just to make sure that everybody is following this and if you consider this is useful or not as I say those who know Hira in more detail I have just summarized the most important elements or for each of the 14 dimensions or elements of Hira. So everything is clear until here anything you wanted to share or tell me. Okay, so I have seen some comments in the chat from some people. Thank you. So I think, so I'm gonna move, yes, I think it was in the blog post of ALT and I don't have the window open but I think if someone from ALT could provide the link to my article I'm gonna in the meantime trying to open the window but I will pass the link to my article. I think it's the ALT blog post blog and it's within the recent articles. So once we know why we are valued the way that we are why our job as learning technologists is created in the way they are. Obviously the next question that I wanted to introduce in this talk is do you think, do you want to move or do you want to progress or take the next step regarding whatever you are at the moment in your professional career? If you are considering that, why do you think that you want to move forward that you want to move to the next step in your professional career? And that's what I mentioned if what you want is just to move to a higher grade in the professional services in higher education for the sake of it or you just want to do something different to undertake a different types of tasks or a different types of duties more in the management routes or more in the teaching routes, the teaching routes depending on what you wanna do. I think for the next step is very important that you are clear and you really are honest to yourself about why you want to move what you are considering moving forward. Obviously that you are coming to this webinar is likely that you are considering that why you want to move. I just wanna ask you now the following question which is if you think that in the current climate that we are in this third lockdown and after what I call the summer of love for learning technologies which was the first lockdown it was a peak a demand for learning technologies after in this third lockdown do you think that it's a good time for moving careers for considering in the next step or progressing or moving forward? Do you consider it's a good time, a bad time? And why? Do you think so? It's not that you can share that with me. Yeah, very good point Neil. I think most of the jobs advertised are fixed them. That's very important. I will mention when we see these fixed terms is how because of the funding and because of the peak of the demand it was learning technologies for deploying or held universities to deploy the responsive blended or hybrid learning models that they were developing over the summer. So apart from Neil and Darren anybody else consider is a good time for moving jobs at the moment in this strange situation that we live in the remote working and the third lockdown. This seems to be for what Kat has mentioned in the chat there are a lot of opportunities starting thing this is a good time but how do you feel about are you aware of those who are thinking of moving you will not move physically to your new office to your new desk to your new physically with your new team. So how do you feel about moving when everything is done online is you think it's gonna be an advantage it's going to be a disadvantage? I think the low level when there is an interesting conversation around this what I mentioned about the issue of temporary fixed jobs and also salary and scales which is gonna be a thing an issue in future but I think in terms of and I know colleagues who has more jobs in the current situation but around this COVID-19 pandemic or this lockdown situation I would like you to use this slide if you wanna share and this slide purely in this situation of remote working and what means to change institutions remember we are changing institutions or you are moving roles in a situation of we are working from home I think those who have children might be looking after them or those who are careless might be looking after them something that for you to consider what kind of opportunities and challenges can you see for moving jobs progressing in your career in the current situation I see both challenges and opportunities because I can see the discussion we are mentioning in the chat that you have limited opportunities for senior position in Ireland in the United Kingdom but I can see opportunities as well because what we have now since we don't have to go physically working anywhere is you can open your horizons and I will mention that about opportunities international opportunities and depending on the route that you choose you can expand your horizons you can for example, if you work in education consider the route of contractors or the route of the private sector or you can also consider working for other universities or other companies which are geographically a distance or away from where you are physically placed now this has obviously pros and cons so I see both challenges and opportunities and I can see people are already posting about that learning new things it's really much more flexible that in the past when you... now opportunity could be for example consider applying for position around London, England and I am saying London because for example I notice English universities is more likely it's more common that they have position of senior learning technologies that seniority which I have seen are more difficult to find in Scotland somebody has posted something and very interesting contribution which is difficult to pick up on the culture of your new institution yeah, I totally agree it's really a very good point and how... I always wonder how would be the inductions of the... in an online environment when you usually in the past you physically went to your new place and the first day you were shown around what is the cafe and all those areas I'm not sure if anybody who are here has moved jobs or have during the lockdown or this time I wanna share their experience if anybody has moved jobs to a different university or a different institution during the lockdown I have... I know colleagues who move jobs during this lockdown I can imagine how challenging it can be for picking up the culture of the new institution but also remember if you move jobs now you need to prove your new employer that you are valued, that you are worthy in your previous institution obviously everybody know what you were able to do what you have achieved but now you have to prove the same when you still have children to home school or if you are a caterer some families for example has brought their elderly parents at home this is in France, in Spain and European countries is very common because they didn't want their parents to be isolated in a nursing home so those challenges that you need to consider now you are in a different setting and you need to prove that you are capable to achieve and then they take the same duties in the past when we didn't have to work in this remote working so I personally think there are opportunities and there are challenges when moving jobs in this current situation there has been some interesting contributions in the chat one of our four opportunities to outsource the role of learning technologies yes, this is something that I can see that but as I say it can be a challenge that now they are having when you say outsourcing the role of learning technologies but it can be an opportunity for those who are considering, for example going to the contractor route because there is going to be opportunities there so it all depends on how you see yourself professionally and where you see yourself going so before moving to the private sector Cat also has mentioned about it's more experienced using specific tools or more compartmentalized so before moving to the next slide to the next point it's just for concluding these opportunities and challenges I think we agree that it's a strange situation a really unusual situation in which we will encounter challenges which is joining online the new institution but also they have a positive aspect and opportunities that we don't have to commute so much and we can expand our horizons for looking for new job opportunities and opportunities for career progression sorry, the progression routes which is what I just wanted to mention in this next part of the webinar of the event opportunities for career progression those routes and those opportunities for career progression the ones I am showing in this slide they were mentioned in my article in the ad block and they were mentioned also in the previous block course which was part of what makes a learning technology serious and that original block course there was a route there was an option which was not listed which is an independent contractor which is something that you might consider and for working as a contractor the current tendency for absorbing the role of learning technologies could be seen as an opportunity I'm not saying that this is good or bad but I'm only saying this is another possibility another choice, something for you to consider but I think in terms of working in education and those who want to work in education both if it is higher education and further education and I know there are colleagues here joining the event who came from further education and joined higher education sorry I originally joined or progressed in my career from further education to higher education so I think in education both higher education and further education vocational training there are only two options or two routes available which is if you want to remain in professional services or if you want to try the academic route for professional services I must say there is a strong competition because there is a strong competition you might be flexible you need to be flexible about where you are prepared to travel how you can expand what I call in my article your ratio of actions to... further you are prepared to travel when we come back to the normal situation or even to relocate yourself and your family and that obviously has a cost for your family and yourself the easier would be that you can find opportunities for progressing your career in professional services because if you want to keep the route of professional services the only option is either jumping into management positions like technology has learning management or learning technologies management or apply to senior positions, senior learning technologies senior learning designer that are based on your expert knowledge on your level of proficiency but those routes for management senior positions are not very frequent in professional services and also remember as I mentioned before Hira allows to advertise management position on grade 7s so if you are currently on a grade 7 as learning technologies and you want to continue in education you might wonder what is the point in progressing or moving to a management position in grade 7 unless I really enjoy management and I want to just move to management if I am going to have a much more level of responsibility if I am going to be managing a team basically on the same salary on the same scale so this is something obviously for you to consider and as I say senior positions of learning designer learning technologies are not a rare, are not frequent and you need to prove that you have that little element of seniority it's going to be very very competitive because there will be many other experienced learning technologies applying as well but if you are appointed for the position one of the biggest advantages for me at least is part of their roles involve pedagogical research you will be able to engage in pedagogical research which is not something at the moment that many learning technologies could do as part of our responsibilities it's possible obviously but it's not frequent and in education I want to highlight the academic route and the jump to the academic route to have a position not in professional services but academic position is not easy but is not impossible if you want to jump to the academic route you need to consider and you need to be targeting academic developing positions which are usually undertaken by the role of the academic developer because academic developers for then it is easier to just jump from professional services to academic services it is easy to jump to positions like assistant professors you don't need a PhD and I have seen assistant professors who don't have a PhD and it is easier to apply for position of teaching fellows which not many universities have teaching fellowships but there are but it's much more easier around positions which are related to academic developers and duties and responsibilities which are usually the remit of academic developers I just want to stop here and I just want to ask if you know the difference or you can see what are the intents because we overlap remit learning technologies, learning designers with academic developers but in the same way that we know what makes a learning technologies what makes a learning developer what learning developers do do you have clear the role and the responsibilities of academic developers or is there any academic developer in the room let's have a start with that question okay so Mirina has mentioned yeah that one and a very good point is more specialized than that one scanning or looking at the academic developers position researching into the market well Rachel since you are I was going to mention with academic developers too but since we have an academic developer Rachel could you summarize would you see this difference or what you can see between academic developers and learning technologies what I can see and Rachel can correct me if I am wrong is the academic developers the role is more focused on teaching and providing pedagogical expertise although there are learning technologies and learning designers who also provide pedagogical advice but I think for what is in the market and what is suspected an academic developer is suspected to design and deliver academic developer activities expected to sometimes teach in postgraduate courses in for example PG3 postgraduate certificates in learning and teaching is suspected to be more involved in course design designing a module which I know and I did myself in the past as learning technologies I have written modules for higher education and credited module and I have teach in higher education as well in credited and credited module but that is exceptional and I think there is no expectation learning technologies is to support academic courses to support academic modules but there is not that component of writing the module and designing the module and so that's what I have seen but Rachel as I said that very much depends on the institution and there might be cases with learning technologies as I say myself I have done this in the past so tell me Rachel if it's more or less if you are expected to do as an academic developer or there is there are other expectation or you have different duties that the one I mentioned more or less so you were not involved as Rachel has mentioned in learning very much when you say learning I mean supporting the technology Rachel rather than the course design yes that's very much my view that is the learning technologies is gonna have always more responsibilities or duties on using technology to support pedagogics while the academic developer is more identifying what pedagogical approach or what pedagogics can be used for certain academic programs or to design academic modules this is very much and Leon has mentioned a very good point academic developers and here is where they jump what makes easier the jump to the academic route academic developers are involved in pedagogical research and this is a very good point if you like pedagogical research or if you wanna publish so keep publishing articles it is easier from the position of a academic developer and if you like teaching online but teaching no training in postgraduate courses also academic developers can teach as well because I wanna move forward the other routes all I was gonna say is if you want my advice would be keep your horizons opened and for the academic route and also try to have a CV which is multi-faceted with the different and you have done a lot of tasks not only supporting technology and I think for the academic developers and academic routes you might consider in your own free time which is what I do and I know this might be difficult for some people in addition to your jobs or learning technologies you volunteer or undertake positions in what you can teach online or which you can do research online but I know as learning technologies you might not be able to do that so my advice is be open to do that in your own free time in my own free time I teach with advanced higher education also I qualify as a senior fellow advanced higher education because I know it's hard and I know you have to make time but keep the academic route open because you don't know in future what's gonna happen and at what point the role of learning technologies is gonna be still needed or well it would be needed but it would be an impoverishment of the conditions so moving to the other two routes the corporate and the commercial sector which is something that after the COVID we saw traditional companies and traditional sectors are looking for what they call learning designers or content developers, structural designers should be more the creation of online content which is also a task or a responsibility of the learning technologies I think the commercial sector is a route that you might consider because there are pros and cons salaries are better you are expected to work the hours needed to fulfill the project it's not I originally came from the commercial sector although I work for Telefonica in telecommunications but I think the difference is higher education is things are done when they are done in commercial sector is much more competitions project has to be finished and at a certain time day you are expected to work a longer hours you are better paid obviously but the route for progression is more similar to the academic route you will progress to senior positions just by being part of the company this is what is missing as the professional in the professional services route there is a question Neil about the teaching fellow well teaching fellow is a position it's not in all universities in which teaching fellows is a role that involves in teaching and potentially in pedagogical research is a position which was polemic in a way in the past because teaching fellows they were paid less than traditional academic positions in which they involve the traditional academic positions and route is both the research and teaching where teaching fellows were more focused on the teaching element of the academia although they could do research as well but there was not an element a key element of the role I don't know if I have summarized very basically what a teaching fellow is I don't know if it is clear Neil okay so I wanted to finish by 130 just independent contractors when you consider independent contractors and when could be the route is independent contractors well you can consider at any time by Phoenix especially interesting when you are um experience learning technologies you have created your network of contacts you can't want to do something different or either there are a volunteer severity packages that you might consider applying and then you think what would I do next or after a fixed contract with it finish as an independent contractor you can trade yourself you need to have your own company and there is a lot of advice in internet about that or you can have umbrella companies that they hire you and you are the an employee of that company they will pay national insurance contributions they will do also private pension schemes but the advantage of the independent contractor is the net paid that you get is obviously higher much higher than the one that you are paid when you are an employee of the university the IR35 is two sets of tax legislation just to uh that the all inland revenue now HMRC has said that in place just to clarify when someone is really and genuinely an independent contractor or when someone was what it was called as a disguised employee which is there was some institutions and companies not necessarily in higher education it was in other public sectors that in which they have contractors working many many years and it was Monday to Friday 9 to 5 it's basically like employees but they hire those professionals as contractors to avoid having them as an employees it could be seen by the it was seen by the inland revenue as a way to avoid paying taxes that was the IR35 legislation came in place and now the the British government they have an employability test that you can undertake and check if you are considering the fruit to clarify if you should you are genuinely what is without the IR35 so you pay less taxes because you are a genuine contractor or you are what it was called a disguised employer in this current situation of remote working and everybody working from home and working using your own equipment you don't have to worry about the IR35 because I think you would be genuinely seen as independent contractors now you are not we are not in an office we are not in theory from 9 to 5 so in a situation of working remotely you then have to worry about being seen and being considered by the inland revenue or the British government as a disguised employee or not and I think for how much if you should charge daily or hourly route and how much you should charge it depends very much on what is the market situation last summer when there was this peak and this high demand of for learning technologies as contractors for certain projects just starting immediately and working for six months, three months obviously you can set up your price your hourly and daily price and I gave some advice in my article in the alt block but there was a high demand now the situation has changed now it's less demand so how much you should charge and how you should charge that depends very much on the market situation but if you want to see the kind of recommendation of the rates I advise you to have a look to my article in the alt block and I think just for finishing these opportunities this kind of event or talk well I'm not an employment agency so I cannot really say what you should apply or how you should apply or it's mainly looking yourself it's really reflecting on what you like to do and why you want to like to do that and how you see yourself in future why you think it's time to move on if you consider continuing in higher education my advice should be to open your horizons be willing to move or to relocate to other universities if you want to progress and you want that progression to be easier or faster in time that you might want to consider to move or relocate maybe on a national level if you look for example in Scotland considering opportunities in English in universities in England or vice versa or I personally think you should consider open your horizons internationally I think for me there is a value on being cosmopolitan on considering living and working in a different culture in a different institution in a different country in the same way that you might want to change the scenario the settings you might consider that you want to come back to your own culture that that's your own country that's perfectly fine I have summarized here examples of institutions that have advertised position of learning technologies although they don't call necessarily learning technologies but they have names like instructional designer or learning designers or content developers but their roles and the duties and responsibilities are very similar to the duties that a learning technology can undertake and for those who are European or within the European Union obviously this is easier because you can travel and work more widely that's what I consider the Brexit terrible how it has closed the door to generation of British people who has this urge for internationalism for cosmopolitanism working or living abroad but it's really really sad and that's the way it is because these are some universities in the European Union in higher education sector that are hiring a position similar to learning technologies for courses and programs in English so for those positions you don't are not expected to master the language of the country at all positions out to university in Finland which is a new university which really really put in a lot of money in online courses and online education and Middle East opportunities as well Middle East opportunities is a country I have worked in in Kuwait in international project and personally I think Middle East is a a geographical area to consider or Asia or usually Australasia Americas and Africa for English speaking countries I am not aware of the time I'm sorry I mentioned that I was gonna finish in time I'm with 30 so I want to thank you for just joining this session and feel free to contact me for any queries or just follow any follow up after this session but just wanted to ask if you consider this useful or if you have any question or anything you want to ask me is the learning technologies okay no I'm glad that it was useful for that and as I said I think throughout the alt block or I'm happy given my my email here if anybody want to any questions which is but is it's really a as I say is considered in all the routes and the different routes education and private sector contractor routes and the pros and cons of each of the routes but I want to thank you very much for attending my session and also I hope it has been useful and take care of yourself and value yourself keep your opportunities of training of improving keeping all your training also with programs like Simul of the higher education the fellowship scheme and I think that's all I don't know if from now just finish you wanted to mention something as just for the next talk but thank you for joining my session yeah thank you so much that margaris that was absolutely fantastic I know a lot of you have already said thanks if you'd like to find the cup emoji please do feel free you can also see Margaris email address there so I'm just going