 Welcome to our first book review on the Manchester Institute for Psychotherapy channel and Bob Cook is going to review a series of his favourite books and the book Bob is going to review tonight is a seminal book in the world of psychotherapy isn't it Bob? Tell us which book. It is Eric Burns first book where he actually describes his first personality model of eager states in 1961 and he named this first model if you like in the world of psychotherapy his transaction analysis model and the book is called transaction analysis in psychotherapy 1961 by Sage Publishers Okay and for those of you who wanted to know what the book looks like in a second we're going to see a picture come onto the screen so you can have a look at it and we will put a link in the bar below in the comments bar below so if you want to buy it I'll look at it in a bit more detail you can click on that So Bob why is it such a seminal book? Well it's Eric Burns first book where he started to put his ideas down on what he called transaction analysis in fact he first developed his ideas on personality and personality theory in 1956, 1957 he started to look at the ideas of intuition and then he came up with his famous personality model describing how we actually come from three different parts of ourselves and therefore transact in terms of which part we're actually coming from and he put this all together in a book, put his ideas down in this book and he called the book transaction analysis in psychotherapy and it became a forerunner for many other TA books but this is when TA was first originally created that's why this book that I'm going to bring up in a minute is so important it's like you know in the world of Gestalt psychotherapy or in the world of existential psychotherapy there are certain seminal books by the people who created this particular model so TA was created 70 odd years ago by this man and he put all his ideas together and he wrote this book Now this book is where all the ideas and TA which we've developed over the last 50, 60, 70 years originally the original book Rory Wow So before this book TA didn't exist So this didn't exist So this book really is the seminal book it's the seed that grew the flower or the garden if we want to use the garden These hundreds of books that followed on TA that developed his seminal ideas developed his model personality created many other ideas off these original ideas but this is the book the spawned the transactional analysts of generations Wow Wow and how relevant is it to students studying TA today It is the book to get You need to get this book Now usually of course as with most great creators I can think of many of the people who wrote seminal books from Eric Erickson to Freud to Margaret Mahler to Fritz Perls to We can think of all these great originators Their books the original books where they put the ideas forward tend to be written quite densely and academically So if you don't want an academic book I saw if you want an academic book this is the book to buy if you don't want an academic book Actually by some of the more accessible books by the later authors But if you want to read the Godfather of TA and if you could just bear with you know reading a chapter at time many different times over till you've got the actual gist of this You will have such a gem such a gem you just have to stay with the academia if you like the quite dense writings But it is the original person's thoughts the original person's writing the original person's ideas that come alive for the first time in that psychotherapy generation Because Eric Burns came on the back of the humanistic revolution and as you know because I know you're big in the world the crime center world He came on the back of who Carl Rogers? Carl Rogers came forward with his wonderful ideas on actualization his ideas of how you actually talk to somebody face to face Not with them on a couch not this one up one down position and the humanistic revolution which was spawned in the 1950s in the United States Then you had gist of psychotherapy and on the back of those ideas came transaction analysis So it seems almost during that time there was a rich thinking development almost like a movement within psychotherapy that spawned many different directions But what you're saying is that this particular book was one written slightly later and took psychotherapy in a completely different avenue Yeah it was in the humanistic tradition tradition but of course it has its psychodynamic roots In other words Eric Burns for most of his early career not only was he a psychiatrist but he was very much into Freudian ideas The ideas of the id the ideas of the superego the ideas of the mature ego and more than anything else the ideas of the unconscious So he really loved Freud's unconscious model of the personality and the methods of psychoanalysis free interpretation etc etc And Eric Burns himself trained in psychoanalysis this is how his heritage is very much from the psychodynamic world In the late 1940s in America in Carmel in San Francisco he was writing his first book a brief outline of psychiatry and he brought some of Freud's ideas alive So very much he was very much a believer in the past effects the present and the psychodynamic theory However in his teachings by 1956 he started to put forward some of his ideas about developing a personal model of consciousness Not unconsciousness where a therapist or a counsellor could trace the behavioural manifestations of internal phenomena Observe them and make interventions which would effect cure Now it's different from the unconscious model of Freud which is very much you concentrate on the first three or four years of life You concentrate on the unconscious desires and longings the driven mechanical model of Freud which was far more vague Far more interpretive far more one up one down position with the analyst making interpretations Eric Burns was an alive model tracing the transactions in the consciousness not the unconscious processes And helping counsellors and therapists have tools to actually make interventions at a behavioural level which would effect cure You've often said Bob when we've talked not in interviews but when we've met up over a cup of tea, a cup of coffee That Freud that Bern was the original kind of CBT person Correct Because he more than anything else anyone else of that tradition in the 1950s early 1960s wanted cure to happen in the first session A therapist needs to go into the first session thinking how are we going to affect cure in the first 20 minutes In the first 50 minutes in the first two sessions three sessions four sessions He was the antithesis of the psychoanalytic person Yes Take eight years nine years ten years analysing the unconscious he moved away from that And he wanted to affect cure much quicker from a conscious model of the personality hence he created the idea of parent, adult, child Which is the first personality model written up outside Freud quite different from Freud though It was looking at a conscious process where the therapist could observe the manifestations of transactions at a conscious level And therefore the therapist could make the effective transactions to help cure in the here and now Not having to go back through regression to where the person was two, three or four So the book really sets the ground out for this new idea that Bernhardt really kind of put his stake in the ground If you drew his line in the sand once for a better phrase and said this is this is the direction of this particular therapy And it moved away in some elements not all but some elements from traditional Freudian techniques And as you said focusing purely on the subconscious process and maybe kind of moving around for years and years without any growth It was the attitude of the therapist to say right from the off we're going to try and help you with this problem As opposed to stumble upon something maybe through traditional methods of psychoanalysis Yes Eric Bern, Eric Bern's wonderful message was we need to strengthen up the robust adult ego state In the here and now, not go back through regressive techniques where we're going to help the person Hopefully become aware of the unconscious processes and that was Freud's early idea of cure by the way Whereas for Bern said no, we are going to help the person be aware of the different parts of the self And concentrate particularly in the here and now on developing a robust adult where they can take charge of their own destiny And make the necessary changes with the aid of the TA therapist Have you got any favourite chapters in the book? Any chapters that you think oh this is just you know gold pure gold Several, the first Now the first chapter outlines his ideas of a personality model In other words how we become the way we are And he called this model back then his ideas he called them structural analysis By analysing the different parts of the self that we're transacting from And helping the person themselves understanding which part of themselves they're transacting from The client takes charge of their own destiny in a way because they know where they're coming from Because before they might have thought they were coming from their unconscious processes But actually they're coming from their adult or their parent So the therapist has these tools to help the client for the first time be aware of where they're coming from And how they can change Now what a wonderful model that is If I said to you Rory, right here we go You're coming from this part of your state You might think you're coming from that part of your state But what you need actually to do is strengthen your adult up in the here and now And take charge and this is what you need to do Yep Wonderful model Absolutely Bob Well I can hear the passion around this text for you, this book for you It's obviously has a lot of meaning for you And you know if I was a psychotherapy student training with CA I know I would be rushing out to buy it And to maybe work my way through it It sounds like it's not an easy book to read But one that once you put the effort into it You're going to get some real gems of wisdom out of Yes, you see throughout my career and it's 30 years now What clients love about the idea of transaction analysis Which is outlined for the first time in this book Is the accessibility of the language In other words, his model which was I quickly I just want to repeat again That you come from three parts of the self What he called the parent part The adult part and the child part Now, over 30 years without a doubt Clients love that model because it's so accessible To understand where they're coming from Everybody's had a parent Everybody's had a childhood And everybody wants to have a mature adult Or a robust adult to be able to take charge of their lives And their destiny and change And clients understand that as a psychological model Of how they become the way they become And what to do to change Now, isn't that a wonderful model? It is a fantastic model Without a doubt, TA is a fantastic model I know he spoke quite often about it It feels like the book really kind of brings that alive And I would say that if I was a TA student So I'd be knocking down the door of the book Of the bookseller to try and get a copy So, Bob Cook, thank you so much for sharing that book And just the passion you have around it And this is going to be just the first of many interviews That we have where you discuss your favourite texts And the meanings behind them I'll tell you one more thing about this book Just one worry I know before you go And that is in this book It outlines some case studies Of how Ferbys can use transaction analysis And help the clients understand where they're coming from In terms of parent, adult, child To be able to take charge of their own destiny For maybe the first time in their lives What else can you ask for? And this is the original writer So do you want me to put the book up Well, all there is as we come to the end of this interview We'll put the book up and you can see it in front of you now And we'll put a link into the description below And as always, Bob, a real pleasure interviewing you Your enthusiasm is really, really infectious And I'm sure that anybody who views this will be grateful Not only for your knowledge but for that enthusiasm Bob Cook, thank you very much And thank you, Roy And go out and buy the book