 Good. Welcome to the Amherst Historical Commission public hearing and public meeting on Wednesday, October 20th, 2021. My name is Jane Wald. And as chair of the Amherst Historical Commission, I'm calling this meeting to order at 6.31 PM. Pursuant to chapter 20 of the acts of 2021, this meeting is being conducted by remote means only. Members of the public who wish to access the meeting may do so in the following manner. You can open the town's homepage on an internet browser, navigate to the town calendar at the bottom of that page, click on the historical commission meeting link, zoom and telephone connections and the meeting agenda can be found in that way. No in-person attendance of members of the public is permitted, but every effort will be made to ensure that the public can adequately access the proceedings in real time via technological means as well as through meeting recordings. So I'll now take attendance by roll call and board members please just signal your presence as we pass your name. Patricia Alves. Present. Katherine Davis. Present. Robin Fordham. Present. Becky Lockwood. Present. Janet Marquardt. I saw your lips. I'm on mute. Read my lips. Hattie Startup. Present. And Jane Wald. I'm present too. Let's see. For members of the public opportunity for public comment will be provided at an appropriate time during the public hearing and then at a general public comment period toward the end of the agenda. Please be aware that the commission can take note of comments but will not necessarily be able to respond to them during the public comment period. We can talk a little bit about that procedure when we get there. The main thing is for members of the public just to identify themselves by name and residence. Let's see. Then now I think we're ready for the public hearing. So in accordance with the provisions of Massachusetts General Laws chapter 40A and Article 13 demolition delay of the Amherst zoning bylaw, this public hearing has been duly advertised. And notice thereof has been posted and mailed to parties at interest. The Amherst Historical Commission is holding this public hearing to provide an opportunity for interested citizens to be heard regarding the following demolition application request. And that is for 1089 North Pleasant Street, the North Amherst Community Farm is the applicant. And the request is for the complete destruction of a circa 1850 timber-framed wooden barn. This application and supporting materials are available at the document center on the town website. So the public hearing is now open. And let me take just a moment to explain the goals and procedure for the public hearing. So I hope you'll bear with me for another couple of minutes. Section 13 of this town's zoning bylaw governing demolition delay for structures of historical or architectural significance states that as a matter of public policy, the economic, cultural, and aesthetic standing of the town of Amherst can best be maintained and enhanced by due regard for the historical and architectural heritage of the town. By striving to discourage the destruction of such cultural assets, the protection, enhancement, perpetuation, and use of structures of historical and architectural significance located within the town of Amherst is a public necessity and is required in the interest of the prosperity, civic pride, and general welfare of the people. So under Massachusetts general laws in the town of Amherst zoning bylaw, the Amherst Historical Commission is responsible for enacting the purposes and procedures of this policy. So what will happen now is that we'll ask for any comments from the applicant in addition to the application they've already submitted and the supporting materials provided with that. Ben Breger, our town staff liaison, if he has any other information, he can present that. And then we can have some question and answer between commission members and the applicant. There will then be an opportunity for public comment. And then after some final comments or any final questions from commissioners or the staff person, then I'll ask for a motion to close the public hearing. And then the commission will go ahead and deliberate on how it finds the significance of the building and what demolition actions it would like to permit or prohibit. At that point, there'll be no other public comment unless commissioners ask for specific information. So that's enough. So let me invite anyone from the North Amherst Community Farm to provide any other comments or information that you'd like at this time. So Bruce, I see that you're here with us. And Barbara Partie and Dave Tepfer. Does any one of the three of you wish to add comment on the application? Yes, I think I will be the spokesman for the group. I think David Tepfer and Barbara Partie may also either follow me or perhaps in answer to specific questions. I'm looking at the panelist or the participant list. And I think I'm not seeing anybody other than the commission and the three of us from the North Amherst Community Farm were simple gifts. If I'm correct in that, then it probably behooves me not to say very much because, of course, we spent a good deal of your time a month ago. The only thing that I'll say, really, I think, is what is kind of mentioned in the piece. But that is that the, so again, yes, we are asking for the complete destruction of the barn, but not for the complete destruction of the components from which it's made. So we are intending to take the barn down and to salvage. And I should say that that idea that we would do this and also that we would have that we have a specific place on the farm that we can direct the salvage material to a very useful and more currently appropriate constructed building was a suggestion that grew out of our past meeting. So we do acknowledge the creative support that you all made and we thank you for that. But I think, unless David and Barbara, if you have anything to add, I would say that our presentation rests with the written submission and that we would pass to questions from you and leave it at that. OK, thank you, Bruce. Ben, is there anything else you'd like to add? Not at this time. I think Bruce is correct that a lot of this was discussed at the July 13th meeting and that the materials submitted kind of reflect that discussion and the assessment report was provided as well as historic pictures. I will say one thing that's come to light and maybe this was discussed on July 13th, but it was lost on me a little bit is that there is no macros entry for the barn at North Amherst Community Farm, nor the farmhouse for that matter. So I think that might be something important to discuss is just entering the barn into the state historic and cultural inventory before it is demolished, or either way, really, but that's something. The Form B doesn't do that? Yeah, the Form B is entered into the state's Mass Historical Commission's website called Macros. So yeah. Well, we have completed a Form B for the farmhouse and it's possible that that whole business that the Mass Historic Commission haven't followed up on their piece of work, which I've been reminding Nate and maybe not you, but for three years now, I've been saying we were supposed to hear this from them and we never have. So that's the house, not the barn, right? Correct. Is there a Form B on the barn itself? I don't believe so. We did a report on it with Greg Farmer helped us put together in association with the Form B, but it's not a I don't think we have a specific Form B for the barn. It's not as easy to know that we found it much more difficult to find historical data specifically related to the barn. There was quite a lot related to the house, but the barn was not specifically mentioned in pretty much any of that material that surfaced. Many of those, many of the Form B entries for properties in Amherst include information about outbuildings. So I don't know. I mean, it might be possible just to amend the Form B that you sent in rather than creating a separate entry for the barn, especially if the barn is not going to be standing in its current form. Yes. That seems like a good, I mean, that appeals to me logically, but I'm not connected with protocols and things as much as you all are and Ben, I think. So I'll be guided, but that sounds like a logical path to pursue to me. Maybe add a photo if there isn't one. We have a bunch of photos that we submitted with the demolition delay permit application. I mean, on the Form B, you must have house photos attached to the Form B. I suppose it's a very long time ago. It's like five years ago that we did this. And I'm sure we, oh, yes, of course, that's right. Greg took copious photos inside and out. And I assume that they were. If you amend it, you could add maybe just a photo of the barn. Yeah, we could. We could add a lot more than one, yes. OK. So are there new comments or questions from commission members on the demolition permit request? Just the clarification from our last meeting that the materials from the current standing barn will be removed in such a way as to preserve them to make the new structure on a different location on the farm. And just to confirm that, because that is important that those materials be preserved and repurposed as you've described. Yes, yes, it's very much the intent. I thought a lot about how that happens. This is not going to be easy for us because we want to do it carefully, but we don't want to. And I've had to try and put together a guesstimate of what it would cost to take the barn down in a way that preserved those materials that were after. And because I have to make an application to the CPA, and so it's a bit of a guess. But absolutely, the notion is that the volunteer slice of our farm community will be taking the materials as they are taken down from the barn. The structural beams, the structural timbers, I should say, and the siding boards, it seems that the roof is we don't have to be so careful with. It's just logs and metal and so forth. So that metal will be recycled. But the valuable material seems to be the siding boards and the structural timbers. That's the high value material. And certainly that we are intending to take down dismantle and stack, stick a stack, and then cover. And we'll, in a way, that we can evaluate what we have. So I don't think it'll be one big pile because we'll have to be able to look at it, so forth. So yes, it'll be stacked and looked at. The siding material, I had a fairly long conversation with Kathleen Carroll, who's a nabata, who's engaged us with some concern for the barn. But she understands what we're trying to do. And I think now, supportive, I expected to see her here this evening and maybe she'll join. But we thought that the siding material, from her point of view, could be very nicely deployed on the barn that is being retained, the newer and far more useful green barn. And we could preserve the look of the farm from that kind of aspect by taking the boards off the farm and applying them to that long facade of the green barn. I don't know whether I mentioned that to you, Dave, or not in that note. But that was what Kathleen seemed to think was a very good idea, from her point of view. So anyway, I would just add very, very quickly. Although, I don't know, many, many, many butters we have. Kathleen Carroll has the best view of the barn, of absolutely anybody who abuts us. Her back deck has a perfect shot through the trees and is close to the barn. She sees it more than absolutely anybody. She is actually on this call. Her name appears as an attendee. Oh, really? I'm not seeing her. OK. OK, if there are no other. Sorry, I'm not looking. I'll ask for any other questions from commission members' comments. Then I'll let's see. This then would be a time to invite comment from the members of the public, if anyone wishes to be recognized. Jane, might I say something briefly? When I was looking to see who was attending, I didn't see because it's covered over the dialogue box. I didn't see the attendees. So I was assuming there were no attendees, but I was wrong because it's six or seven. And so it may be that the attendees know nothing about what we're talking about because I didn't make the presentation in ignorance of their presence. So let's find out, but just bear in mind that some of the people attending may not know that we are attending and how we're intending to what we're intending to do here. In that case, I think I might just repeat for those individuals that there is a link on the town calendar for today to this meeting, the Historical Commission meeting. And by following the links and navigation there, individuals can access the demolition permit request and all those wonderful supporting materials on the town website in its resources section. But Bruce, if you want to give like a two or three sentence recap of what you're intending to do, then I'll go back to inviting comment from members of the public. Let me say that the intent is to deconstruct the barn carefully, but it's essentially demolition. So we are asking for a demolition permit. The reason is that whereas the farmhouse has been very useful as a building and it is pretty good condition and we've successfully put a lot of effort into renovating and restoring that, the barn is completely different in that it is in pretty terrible condition and that there's no functional use that we can think of and we've tried very hard for a number of years. So briefly that it is different from the barn, from the farmhouse in that respect. However, it's been painful for us to imagine that we should take down the historic portion of the farm stead. So we've committed to taking it down carefully, salvaging the key materials as I've mentioned and specifically, and I'll end on this, using those materials to construct a pavilion in a central location on the farm, which will be far more useful to us and to everybody. And so the barn will live on as a timber-framed structure, which the farm community I hope will organize to build in a rather celebratory way. It will live on, not so large, but the usable salvaged materials will find their way to another structure on the barn. So that's my brief summary of what we've submitted. Okay, thank you, Bruce. Thank you. So again, I'll invite members of the public to make any comments that they would like to about this particular request. And I am seeing no hands. Just members of the public can hit the raise hand button. I do see Kathleen Carroll's hand. Hi everybody, can you hear me? Yes, yes. Kathleen Carroll, 11 Fisher Street. And I am the one who, as Dave says, I view the barn 24-7. So I've grown quite attached to the barn. It's right, straight on view from my deck. Anyways, I came late to this discussion, but I've caught up quickly. I've talked with Bruce at length, and I had also done a little bit of research with Preservation Massachusetts before I knew that the farm had a plan for the new pavilion, which I totally think is a really great idea. But I would just like to chime in and advocate for, and of course, purely selfish on my part, and I'm going to admit that right off, that some of the wood be used as a facade for the green barn that is right behind the 1850 barn. I think not only would it be and keep the character of the little farm compound that is there, I just would like to see that. And of course, it would be nice for me to look at off my deck. So I'm being totally upfront about that. So I would just like to advocate and support Bruce's suggestion that he submitted. And I know that's extra work for Dave and Jeremy, and I would like to jump in and help to volunteer to help with that. Hey, thank you very much for your comment. Thank you. Are there any other members of the public who would like to comment? All right, then, would someone like to make a motion to close the public hearing? It's just about to do that. I move we close the public hearing. Is there a second? A second. Thank you. All in favor? We can just all raise hands. Okay, that's seven, that's unanimous. All right. So I'm gonna make a suggestion that rather than going through the 11 criteria that we for historic significance that we usually do, I'm going to suggest one of three motions. And we can then talk about which motion we'd like to make. So one motion is that the building is not a significant structure according to criteria stated in the demolition permit bylaw, demolition bylaw. A second motion is in which case the demolition permit is approved. A second motion could be that the building is a significant structure according to bylaw criteria, but the proposed demolition would not be detrimental to the historical or architectural heritage or resources of the town. Therefore, the historical commission approves the demolition permit. And a third, a motion that the building is a significant structure according to bylaw criteria and the proposed demolition would be detrimental to the historical or architectural heritage or resources of the town. And the historical commission therefore wishes to put a delay on granting the permit. Does that make sense? Okay. Can we modify number two? Sure. I would just say it is a significant building and it could be seen as detrimental as a loss except that the proprietors are willing to reuse, adaptively reuse the parts and create another structure of equal or better value. Because I don't want it going in the record that we don't think that it would be a loss. Can we add language which attests to its structural instability? And it's, I mean, that's, I think to me, the more salient fact is that it simply can't be. Right. It can't be rehabilitated. So it's exactly okay. It would be a significant loss, but it can't be saved, right? And then the parts are gonna be reused. Yeah, those four things. That's good, Robin. Okay. Well, we, has anybody got the wording down, right? I can't make a motion, but... No, you can. If you've been making... Can I just say so moved? Yeah, yeah. But if you read back what you've got, then somebody will say so moved. Or I can take a stab at it that the building is significant according to the criteria of the bylaw, that it's destruction would be a significant loss to the town, but that it is unstable and not... Irreparable. And irreparable. And therefore the demolition permit is granted, right? Right. And the providers are willing to deptively renew parts. Right. How's that been? Got that? Yeah. I'm typing. So moved. I think I got it. Yeah. Okay. So that's it. Robin has made a motion. Thank you, Robin. Okay. I see Jan second. Okay. So any further discussion? Seeing none. All in favor? Please raise your physical hand. And there we go. Yes, seven, seven to zero. There's just one last thing I want to, I just like to say that for the North Amherst Community Farm and all of you involved in it, we just sort of appreciate your due diligence and the carry you've taken for the farmhouse and the barn and being willing to explore other alternatives. And certainly it's clear that this structure is on its last legs. And we're grateful that you're willing to find a new life for some of the structural elements to carry forward a part of Amherst's agricultural history. Thank you. It's true. I've used you as an example, actually a positive example. Can I make a quick statement? I'm just going to inject at this moment. I wanted to talk about this at the next meeting, but there is the mass preservation mass has an awards program. And one of the, from my read of it, my understanding is that a person can self-nominate and I think there is a award category that particularly fits the North Amherst Farm. And I believe you have five years to receive the award. So we can discuss this more at the next meeting, but I've been wanting to mention to the commission that I'd really like to see us nominate the North Amherst Farm project for one of these awards. There's a lot of representation of Eastern Mass in those awards. And really it's just been such an exceptional project to see you guys go through. And so we'll bring that up as an agenda item, hopefully at the next meeting, but this seems like a good moment to interject that into. So thank you so much for all your careful and deliberate of thought and action. That's really impressive. Don't get too excited. It's not a million dollars or anything. No. Is it any dollars? I don't know if it's any dollars. It's an honor. Yes, that I was prepared to assume. And then you said it's not a million dollars. I thought, well, are there any dollars? I'm sure there's a lovely thought. Thank you very much. It's never heard of us that we were. I'm sure there'll be something you can hang on, hang on the wall of the farmhouse. Yes, or the pavilion. Or the pavilion, right? We cut it in half or something. Well, let's not get ahead of ourselves here. Thank you very much. All right. Commissioners, and I guess that's it for us. Yeah, thank you all. It's going to be great going through this process. You're great. Thank you, Barbara. Thank you, Bruce. Bye bye. Bye bye. Let's see. Next on our agenda is announcements. And the one, the one, the important one that I can think about it is the Writers Walk event. And I'm wondering if we, I think we need to talk more about that. So maybe we should move that on the agenda after the CPA projects. Is that agreeable? Yeah, that makes sense. But just for the public in the room, just knowing that we have a launch event for a Writers Walk sign tour on this Friday at 4.30, it'll be held outside of 97 Spring Street. And all are welcome to attend. More details to come. Good. All right then. Let's go to the CPA project applications. And we'll just go in order, in the order they appear on the agenda. So first up is the conky house. So I think what we'll do is, well, all of the commissioners have received the application materials and we've gone through it. So we're familiar with the projects as you've described them. But we'd like to give you each applicant an opportunity to just call out anything to our attention that you'd like to. I think we can also maybe take just a few minutes for questions from commissioners or suggestions from commissioners about how to position your request with the Community Preservation Act Committee. So perhaps it might amount to, five to 10 minutes per application. So let's see, representatives from the conky house. Let's see, I can bring them in here. We have Jean and Jane Porter. Hi. Hi. Good evening. Good evening. Hello. Is Jean here? Yes, hi, Jane. I'm here. Oh, good. Okay. Is there anything new that you'd like to let us know about your application or anything? I feel like we spent time to try to make a concise presentation. I mean, if you want, I can go over it. All I would really be doing is reading down what we already wrote. So would you like me to do that or are you all familiar with it? Commissioners, what's your, do you feel you've got the sense of the application? Yes. Yes. Okay. All right. Then thank you, Jean, but I think we feel that we were pretty familiar with the application now. But so if you have any additional questions for us, I think probably commissioners might have a couple of points of clarification, things that they'd like to understand also. Sure. I hope to spend the time answering their questions. I think that would be the best use at the time. Okay. All right. Thank you. All right. Robin, I see your hand. Yeah. So I'm going to start off by saying that for a number of these fabulous projects, I'm going to be talking about other sources of funding. And that is in no way a suggestion that I'm not supportive of the projects, but I'm trying to, the applicants can know that I was the former representative to the CPA committee and how he started up was taking over that position. But I had a particular interest in both encouraging applicants to support additional sources of funding and also helping applicants find additional sources of funding. The main thrust of which is to see our CPA dollars go further if there's extra financing out there. And one of the things that we talked about in the last round of CPA funding was creating a proposal timeline that allowed for an information session and applicants to ask questions much earlier in the process. We haven't quite gotten there yet. So some of this might seem daunting and it's not necessarily, I'm just trying to get this process rolling. So people can, and my fellow commissioners can weigh in their thoughts in terms of, so this is the sale in place property. And I had pulled together a matrix of funding sources and trying to understand what other resources are out there for other projects. The sale in place project seems to be in a particularly tight spot because they're not a 501s to three, they're not a cultural institution. They're actually a really great example of why we need things like CPA funds. The only thing that I don't know and I don't understand tax credits and often maybe Jane Walt does is whether or not that would be something that the organization could consider looking into applying for to supplement their budget. And I would encourage them in that direction. And then the only other thing I noticed is that there was an item in, and unfortunately the way we have the applications presented to us is not quite as visually delineated as I'd like, but there was mention of a park for a historic marker. And I don't think that that qualifies for funding under CPA. So I'm basically the strict definitions person. And that's not always the favorite person in the room, but there we have it. So those are basically my comments. Becky, did you have your hand up also? Just to clarify, I think the last meeting we talked about possibly, it's quite a large sum to be asking for. And I guess I'm wondering if there are, if it can be split it all into, are all of these things listed absolutely essential to be done now? Or can some of them wait for another application for another grant maybe next year? Am I audible? Yes, yes. Please go ahead. So there is a spot on your application where you talk about urgency. And I try to be as sort of straightforward and concrete as I can just naming what the issues are. Right now we're hopeful that if we can address the roof, see the problem is the rain comes off the roof and it curls around and hits the wooden portion of the dormers. And so that's been going on for some time and we're concerned if it gets into the structural repairs of the building that it will really, the cost will continue to go up. So the urgency is from that regard. We can't do any of the other repairs so we make sure that the roof is watertight and protects the subsequent work that will be done. In terms of splitting the project up, two projects that must go together so that we can use one set of staging for both projects because the staging is quite expensive would be to do the masonry on the chimneys and the roofing at the same time. Also because the problem with the roofing is, I mean the late tiles are in good condition but it's all the flashing and the flashing has to be attached to the chimneys and they can't be attached to chimneys that haven't been repaired yet. So those two projects must go together and that seemed to me to be part one. Part two is repairing all of that woodwork that's been damaged, water damaged and the woodwork on the porch and that all seems to go together because you repair the woodwork when the carpenter's there, you paint once the woodwork's been repaired so that those two projects go together. The urgency on that again is that the fascia boards are already rotted and so, am I going on too long? No? No, this is helpful. Okay, so that the right now the roof is being held up and we're very hopeful. It's hard to tell until they rip it apart but we're very hopeful that the roof of the wrap around porch is still structurally sound. However, it's rotted. So the longer we wait, the more in danger we are to have the expense go way, way up. The other problem is that the gutter is attached to the rotten fascia board and so it delivers the water down near the corner of the foundation which for the moment is fine but again, that's been going on for a number of years. So that's the urgency and those are the phases of the project. Okay, that's helpful. So it looks like the first phase that you described would be roof flashing and roofing at the dormers, the hipcaps, the counter flashing at the chimneys and then masonry. And that's about 120,000. Yes, it is. Yeah, that, I think it's wise to your wise to divide this into these segments. Would we consider the fence to be something that could be postponed? Yes, that there's no urgency. That's more for the aesthetics and the historical value. And we love and appreciate the fence, but. It's a shutter. Yeah, even trim and things like that. It's almost you've put them in, on your budget, it's almost in urgency order, right? Your priority order. What I did was I attached the quotes from the people would be doing the work and in the grid budget, I just opened it back out the way they presented it. But while the roofer is there, they've got listed all the things that they need to do to fix the roof. And while the mason is there utilizing the staging, there's also a hole in the foundation. Fortunately, the building seems very sound. They've got big chestnut beans underneath and a big sill going all the way around that seems good. And the HOA has already preserved. The porch was literally rotting off the building. And all that work has been done where the roof was supported and the whole under structure and deck has been replaced. So that has allowed many extra years to try and pull together more and more funding. But the HOA just can't do it. I mean, these are apartment dwellers who are just trying to make ends meet. And this building is, as you see, has really got a lot of expense. How high a priority is furnace replacement? Do you know that's an excellent question and I don't have the answer to that. You know, I might suggest that for the furnace, it's a relatively small amount, but she might want to move it to the HOA column. Okay. Because it could be interpreted as maintenance as opposed to preservation. And because it's a relatively small amount, it would probably the appearance of the budget or the case might be improved for purposes of CPA. Yeah. I would bring it down though. Yeah. And as we did that. So the HOA board came up with a, trying to do, we thought it had to be matching funds. And so they came up with their absolute max that they felt they could come up with, which was to take 20,000 out of the capital reserve and then charge everyone who lives there, you like $1,000, which, so what I could do if I restructured the budget so that the furnace comes out of that, $71,000. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Sure. Other comments, questions from commissioners? Jane, I was looking at the CPA law. Is it the guidance? I can't remember one of them, which does have a statement that rehabilitation repairs have to conform with, and this is a question for you to conform with the secretary of interior standards. Have we dealt with that before? You know, that's a good question. So some time ago, the Emily Dickinson Museum had CPA funding, but because we just, as a matter of course, adhere to the secretary of the interior standards, that particular topic, I don't think was discussed explicitly. But I'd ask Jane and Jane, if you're familiar with that. And I am looking up, it is in the actual law, it's not in the guidance, it's in the law. Okay. Yeah. Just a matter of having the appropriate consultant on board or? Yeah. It's a matter of having the project overseen by someone who's familiar with it. I don't know. I don't know. I'm sorry, Robin. Could you say that again? Yeah, I just looked it up again. It's in the actual text of the law. It's not in the guidance. It's in the law. Okay. Yeah. Just a matter of having the appropriate consultant on board or. Who's familiar with those standards. And that certain, certain techniques or methods by trades persons. Would be, you know, there's, there is some guidance for that too. So it might, it could be a matter of. Asking the subcontractors or the contractors or the subcontractors or, you know, like a request for qualifications. Could they, could they say what, if they've worked on other historic preservation projects or historic rehabilitation projects and. You know, are they familiar with the secretary of the interior standards? And would the Massachusetts historical commission be able to provide any sort of a technical assistance role if there was. An issue. I'm just trying to. I don't quite understand the process, but I guess we could cross that bridge when it came to it. Well, you know, you bring up a very good point, Robin, that we should be. Prepared to, to give guidance or advice on how to, to meet that. I can make an inquiry if that, if that's helpful. Just because these are such big, these are, we've got two very big projects here. Okay. So I think probably for, for. Jane Porter and Jean Lukens, we should follow up with you about this, this item that has just come up. So we can sort of, I, if you're not, if you're not familiar with the secretary of the interior standards, there's a, you can, you can, you know what, I'll, I'll try to find it while we're talking, but you can Google it through the national park service. And let's see if I can find it and I'll send it to you. It's a, there's a, there, there's a summary version and then there's much more, much more detailed version. But we can, you know, point out to you what to be aware of. And Jane, while you're doing that as the person who's taking over from Robin, it just, this is tough, you know, because it's a sort of chicken and egg thing where the applicant has provided all sorts of very detailed information about the work that is needed to be done. But we as a deliberative body are trying to do things in the way that is required of us by law. And so as the person replacing Robin on the CPA committee, I'm, I'm particularly vested in trying to kind of do what I should be doing in order to evaluate applications as they come before us. And this is, this is a really important building. You know, there are, maybe we should be making it a, you know, its own little historic district, you know, as a building or beefing it up somehow so that it can, it can benefit from different kinds of support that maybe we didn't know about until now. I don't know whether you managed to find the link, Jane, while we've been, while I've been wittering on. Yes. And now that I found it, I'm not, I'm not seeing the chat that I'm used to seeing. So I'm not sure how to, how to get it. I did find something similar on the state website. That talked about, talked about using historic. Using sort of modified approaches to restoration. And there's, it's quite extensive actually. Yep. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I've got a, I've got a link, but, and I can tell you what it is, but I can't, I can't pop it in. That's fine. That's okay. You can tell us. Okay. So, nps.gov. slash forward slash TPS. forward slash standards. Forward slash rehabilitation. Forward slash rehab. Forward slash stand. Stand as, as in standards. It's the, it's the A and D. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So I think we've probably covered what we would, what, what's helpful for us to know tonight about the company, Stevens house application. So we thank you for. Thank you very much. Thank you for taking such good care of the house. Oh thank you very much. I, I do want to just mention something. I don't know if it's out of hand or not, but there are a number of units in the building that will be coming up for sale potentially. As people are nearing the age of retirement. And as it is a mixed use HOA, there has been some informal discussion about whether it makes sense for there to be a division between the historic portion and the residential portion. Because the interests of both parties sometimes diverge. Would the town have any interest in having a museum or a building. And having this, you know, the owners need to be bought out at some point. I just throw that out there. Because I don't know if that would be a similar. I just throw it out there. Okay. Well, thank you for that. I mean, I don't know if that's too wacky to bring up in the context of this meeting. But almost all of us are approaching our 60s, 70s and 80s. Okay. Yeah. Can I just comment that at one point, either Jean or Jane, you mentioned that it was our application. You understand it's not. You're not applying to us. Right. We're just. Making a recommendation on your behalf out of all the ones that are in our area. Okay. So we're not making the decision. Right. And, and so what you're suggesting, the suggestion I have is to move the furnace over. We're just trying to strengthen the application. Help the application for the CPA committee. Right. Okay. And have the best number for us to work with as we recommend to them, how much each project we're given might, you know, be best served. So. Okay. Right. The CPA committee will probably want to know what, in just the way that you broke it out to us, what things are most urgent and. What things could, could potentially go unfunded for. I mean, did you. Were you able to understand it and. Oh, I thought so. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. It sounds like it's also important to. To let them know about the qualifications of the people who gave the estimates, because I do believe they have had experience in historic restoration. I think that was one of the. One of the things that. That we were looking for. Yeah, I think so. If that's a criteria, I would put it in there because it usually means things cost far. So it would help justify the expense. Absolutely. Yeah. If you have that information, you should definitely put it forward. Great. Good. Okay. Thank you very much. I think we'll now go to. Thank you. Thank you. We'll now go to the strong house application. Strong house. Yep. It would be George here. And I think in the interest of time, just to move it. A little bit faster for each application because we do have a few to get through and then kind of have a wrap up discussion at the end. Yeah. Okay. We just ask a few questions. We don't really need it represented in every case. No, I, and this one is fairly concise. So. Are there questions about. Questions about the Amherst historical society application concerning. An engineering study for the strong house. So I have a, I have a question. I have a question and a comment or not a question. I have two statements, I guess the first one is that I don't think that it's fundable under CPA. Because it doesn't meet the restoration rehabilitation. Acquisition. Or there's one other one in there that generally studies are not fundable under the historic preservation part of the program. I did. Look at the cultural mass cultural council website. Again, referring back to the fact that I'm trying to find out on the website. I'm looking for other sources of funding are for appropriate items for applicants. That looks like there is a technical. Assistance grant that might. Fit this particular project. I noticed on your application that you didn't have a particular dollar amount yet because you were waiting for a quote to come in. They have an info session coming up on October 28. 2021. that their application process open today with, I think, letters of intent. And the deadline is January 14th of 2022. And it's all available on their website. I can send the link if needed. But I would encourage application to that particular program. Since in my read, this is not possible through CPA. Remind me of what organization was this you were talking about? This is the Massachusetts Cultural Council. Mass Cultural Council. And it's their Cultural Facilities Fund. And if you go to the Mass Code, if you just Google Mass Cultural Council, Cultural Facilities Fund, it'll take you to that web page. It's not particularly complicated to navigate to the important spots you can register for that info session. And figure out if you're, in fact, eligible as I think you are, because you're an interpretive science, a facility of interpretive science, I think, if it's a science. OK, thank you. It's kind of, yeah, yeah. Anyone else? Yeah, I would just say not to open up a whole can of worms, but there is possibility that such a study like this could be funded under the administrative expenses of CPA. I think if you, I think, and Robin probably knows more about this than I do, but I do believe the CPA Commission has the ability to fund studies that could lead to historic preservation, housing, open space, recreation projects. So I think there would have to be probably a justification that there's a suspicion that there is something wrong with the architecture or engineering that needs to be studied. But and I think we don't have the guidance, legal guidance on that now. But I think I don't want to completely rule out the administration and administrative expenses. And I think there I think they're required. Oh, go ahead. Oh, that this is a question that started last cycle and we're trying to get an answer to George. So that's why I didn't mention that. But it's also a possibility, depending on how the town council and council with an asthma. I see determines the the way the law and the guidance is worded. So that's possibility to Catherine. Did you have your hand up? Yeah. Yeah, I just wanted to add a helpful piece of information for George. And if they choose to go through the Mass Cultural Council, I believe this is still applicable, but that it has to be a one to one match. So I think I think that beyond just having community support, you have to whatever you're applying for, if I'm, you know, speaking out of matching funds. Yeah, you have to have like a complete matching fund for whatever you're applying for. Yeah, that that is true. So that it may make some sense to apply to the Cultural Facilities Fund and in the administrative category for CPA. That's true. Thanks for pointing that out. George, do you have a sense of scale? What what an engineering study would be? I don't even have that at this point. We have I've gotten fair street associates to agree to give us an estimate for that kind of study. I'm assuming that it would be thorough that we're talking about how the house was constructed and what the condition of the wood is, you know, out of which it was constructed and build it out from there, you know, the plaster, the clabbers. We we have never done this before, never been done for the house. So we're very curious about what condition our 250 year old structure is actually in. We can know where to target restoration fund. That sounds to me like a conditions assessment, which is another, you know, approach to evaluating. Yeah, basically what it says, evaluating the condition of the different systems within the building, the different building systems. And that that can be done by an architect. And they may want the services of an engineer to a structural engineer. But if you have connections with if you already have connections with an architect, say on the Historical Society Board or former board member, that might be in some sense in an easier place to start if if your goal is to understand all of the building systems. If your goal is to understand the the strength or the condition of the structure, the structural elements, then that would be a structural engineer. But an architect might also have recommendations along those lines. Correct. Yes. Yeah. Oh, in either case, it might benefit us to talk to an architect. It could. Yeah, I think so. OK. All right. Have we have we heard what we need about the strong house at this point? I had one more question. I think there was a statement in there that suggested that the timeline was necessary to correspond with the beginning of the Jones Library Project. Is that correct? And if so, Ben, what kind of data are we looking at there so we can assess for urgency? Well, that that's on the ballot for November. Well, I know it provided it passes on the ballot. One would maybe actually be breaking ground. I I'm I'm really not sure, actually. OK. Yeah. Oh, yes, that's an important point, George, because these funds are not available until July of next year. Understood. Yeah. OK. OK. OK. Thank you. I think. Yes, go ahead. George, did you was there something else you wanted to say? Not at this point. Thank you for your advice. And if no one if people have nothing else, I'll leave the meeting. You can go on. OK, thank you. All right. Next is the Amherst Woman's Club. Hills House repairs and let's see. Let's see. So Dorothy is here. OK. Yes. And Cassidy. Catherine, I think. OK. Yeah, Catherine and Libby. No, no, no, no, OK, OK. All right. So thank you for I mean, we've we've had a nice chance to talk with you before. And so are there. Kind of new things that you'd like to share with us? Or I don't necessarily think so. We did get I did get an email from Sarah with some more questions. So I have to amend the application. It has to be in by Friday and in the process of working on that. She seemed to I mean, I'm not sure with these questions come from. But in any way, it was clarifying some of the. Some of the estimate that we got. And it was interesting because one of the first questions she asked us was why did we only have one estimate? And I had sent an email to the Mr. Mr. Anthony Delaney, who was the person I was communicating with before. I guess he doesn't work for the town any moment. Anyway, I asked him that question and he said one estimate would be fine. So that's why we didn't get other estimates. And I've explained all that and what I'm going to send to her on Friday. Yeah. Hi. Yeah. I for CPA, I think over the years, you know, sometimes applications come in with no estimates at all. And my goodness, those are really very difficult to assess. Yes, you can imagine. How much conversation goes. And I don't know. It's I don't know what your experience with this has been, Robin, but I think usually it is one estimate. Oh, I think I'm my experience is probably colored by working in housing, rehab and community development. But the expectation is that you have you attempt to get at least three. Two is good, because if they're within the ballpark of each other, then, you know, you're on the right track. And so that's definitely helpful. If there's a significant difference in terms of the qualifications of the contractors and historical duration, then, you know, being limited to one estimate is perfectly reasonable. You know, a second estimate is always helpful. I mean, I may have pushed for that in the past. I think I probably have, but it's not a deal breaker. Well, the person who who has given us his estimate, his name is Ronald Keith, and he has done historic preservation. He's done a lot of work on this house over the years, and he knows it very well. Then I would be prepared to. Yeah, I would be prepared to present his credentials. Oh, I mean, we have his license numbers and all of that stuff. OK, but I mean, it's credentials in terms of historic presentation, preservation in particular. This house is an example of his credentials. I mean, I don't know myself what other houses he's worked on. I know he has worked on this house. He's working the last twenty five years. Yeah, I, you know, I think it that's a that's a good point to make in your application, because the Hills House is certainly recognized as an important historic building in Amherst. If if it's possible to get another couple of examples from him, of historic structures, that it it it strengthens the case that this individual is qualified to do this work and and that he's got that. He's got that background that. That is more persuasive about his numbers as the is the only estimate. They also asked she also asked us if we were planning to sell the house. So I don't know if she thought we were going to grab all this money, fix the house up and sell it. But no, we have no plans to sell the house. Yeah, well, that it also doesn't change the fact that the house needs this. Exactly. So I have a couple of comments, Jane, if we're ready, please. Yeah. OK. So again, looking at my not completely thorough, and maybe Catherine knows more about this than I do, but pulling together information on other funding sources. There are two potential what let me start again. Another project that we're looking at were asking the applicant to apply with the intention of applying for other funding. Just noting that in the application and I'm trying to make a process of this for applicants that if there are other funds available out there, that it seems like they would be good, good projects for to encourage people in that direction. And so it's not and it's not a deal breaker or anything like that. But and Jane, I was hoping that you would weigh in on this. When I looked at the Mass Historical Commission's preservation funds, I noted in their materials that they said that emergency funds for stabilization are available at any time at the discretion of the secretary. So I thought that this house, because it is a nonprofit, would be a good kind of test case for that. And I'd be happy to make that inquiry myself. And see if I can understand the process a little better and recommend the information to the applicant. There's also a $10,000 preservation mass matching grant for exterior work. That seems like it would be a good that the project would be a good applicant for that fund as well. So the objective here is just to get our applicants to apply to as much outside funding as is reasonable and under the timeframe and in terms of the urgency so that we can spread our CPA funds as far and wide as possible and also provide support to our applicants to better package funding for their projects. So those are my basic statements. The Massachusetts Historical Commission requirement is that I think it's that that the applicant be a nonprofit and that the property be listed on the state register, which I believe is the case with the women's club. Yeah. I didn't understand where you said the $10,000 matching grant came from. Is that the same source? Nope, that's the preservation mass. That's a new program of saying again, please. Preservation mass is the foundation. Oh, mass is in the state of Massachusetts. Yes, yes. And it's foundation. So if you Google preservation mass, historic preservation grant, you'll find it. And there I believe their letter of intent deadline is coming up on December 1st. And as I said to our other applicants, you're welcome to still apply for the full amount from us. But if you can make an application to another organization, you can just include that in your in your statement. Can I clarify if I understood correctly? You are suggesting two possible funds. One is mass historical requirement, requirement, is it so? No, it must use its historical commission. Commission, yeah. Yeah, commission, preservation funds. And what I can do is I can make an telephone and create on your behalf on that particular fund, because I'd like to understand it a little bit better. I know that they're very complicated applications and I don't want to send you guys down a rabbit hole. I did look at that when I was noodling around when we were first looking for funds. I think I stumbled into that in the application. If I remember, it's very, very long. It could be. Yeah. Yeah. So you are going to do that investigation and find out. Yep. OK. And how we are going to get information from you. Should we write your email so you get our contact or what? I will get your I'll get your contact information from them. OK. And the second possibility is preservation. Preservation, the two sets foundation that has a deadline December 1st, when we can apply for the matching fund in case that we get funding from CPA. Is it so? Yes. Yeah. OK. Thank you. That application, I think, is not as complicated. OK. Less money. Too complicated applications. It is complicated. You can tell me and I won't recognize it. Relatively. We shall try. All right. Other other questions, comments, discussion points. Well, it's a little commercial on our behalf. You know, we are very proud of our house and we've taken care of it ourselves for a hundred years. And now we're reaching out for help and it isn't important. I think, you know, this whole string of houses here is people drive into town. It's such a lovely place for people to drive through before they get up to the main street. Well, we are a main street, but I mean, not close to the street. Catherine, I see your hand. Just I hadn't planned on saying anything, but what Donnie just said, that we've taken care of it for a hundred years. I don't know if people really know that we've done an awful lot of maintenance and. Renovation, I don't know if that's the right word. We've replaced a heating system in the house and it was still running on old, early 1900s steam radiators until about 10 years ago, eight years ago. Those have gone in that process. We were able to add an air conditioning for the bottom part of the house where we were able to get ducks in, then a lot of new electrical stuff, new panels, electrical panels, a lot of what I would call maintenance stuff that you don't see. I mean, when they gave us the cost on absolutely hydro sealing the basement so it wasn't quite such a flow through stream down there. I about died, but we did it and it's worked. So there's been a lot, a lot that you don't see on the outside. Now it's the outside's term. Previous people have talked about how the weather has really rock havoc with the outside. And that's where we are now. That the the renovation of all of that beautiful gingerbread stuff that goes with that time period. Now we're at the point now where it needs to be done. So just a little background. Yeah, yeah, we should also mention that we did an extensive redecoration for the public rooms to bring them to authentic Victorian wallpapers and paints and things like that. So that's not quite as extensive as the other stuff, but it's important. Yeah, yeah, I, you know, you could. So that house. I believe there are nice illustrations or at least town, there's a lithograph of Amherst that will show both Hills houses and the factories. And, you know, going establishing the the historical significance in Amherst's economic and cultural history, that, you know, that won't hurt. Jane, where would we be able to find that? I know we will have lots of old photographs. I don't know if the originals were lithographs or not, but but I don't remember one that also shows the factory sites. So. I think I can I think I might have that where I can zoom in on it and if I do, I'll try to send it to you. If you can also get it from the Jones Library from Special Collections, you can talk to Cindy Harbison. Yeah, yeah, that would have been my. What I would have done if I hadn't had you here to ask. Well, you better ask her anyway, because she'll probably she'll probably get to it faster than I will. Jane, just the last comment was just the same comment about the preservation standards. The Interior Secretary of Interior standards would apply to this particular project as well. Yes, so that's that's your National Park one, Robin. Right. Yes, that's correct. So if you're if if you're able to get information about the subcontractor and the work, I'm sorry, contractor and the work that firm has done with any other historic. Structure in addition to the women's club, which apparently she's worked on for quite a while. So. OK, all right. OK, thank you very much. Thank you, thank you. Thank you. OK, let's see. North Cemetery. Next. Yeah, I think I can talk about this one as well as I think Alan Snow is here to discuss it as well. Alan Snow is the forget your official title, tree warden, grounds maintenance, division director of tree. There you go. Thanks, Alan. So yeah, I think if commissioners have any questions about the North Cemetery project, Alan sent me a few pictures that I can share just to give everyone. Reference of what we're talking about. This is North Cemetery, which is off of. East Pleasant Street as you're heading up to North Amherst. And the focus of this application is on this white fence. That is a state of disrepair. And I think in the application, Alan outlined the the history of the fence as far as we know, just dating back 20, 20 or so years. But I was actually just looking through the macros entry for North Cemetery this afternoon and did note that in the early days of North Cemetery, it was actually a sheep were pastored out on the cemetery during a while it was an act of burial ground. So I imagine it had a fence then, but then by 1880s, I believe there is mention of there being a fence on all sides of North Cemetery. So we're not. Totally sure what the appearance of that fence was, but just, you know, just noting that it was fenced in and that it's time to replace this fence. And I think DBW planning, we have every intention of working with the Historical Commission to help design and find a historically appropriate fence for this landscape. OK, and here's the dog. Can I make a comment? Sorry, can I make a comment? Yes, please. So the request is for the replacement of the fence with a new fence. Yes. My concern is that that doesn't fall under. Rehabilitation, I suppose it could fall under restoration if it was on a replica, but I don't know, Jane, do you want to weigh in on that? I'm just throwing it out there. As I said, I'm the definitions person tonight, so no one will like me. Yeah, I just I just have a question to Jane of what the composition of the fence is from the photograph. It's difficult to tell whether it's wood or metal. In the application, if you read the application, it's wood. Yeah, it's wood. Oh, I guess the question is, has it always been wood? Hmm. I can answer that if you like. Yes, please, Alan. As far as I know, the history that I am aware of the fence goes back about 15 years, I'm told. And when it was there was a great deal of concern about replacing the previous fence with a historically accurate fence. And they they built it using rough sawn lumber, which is a two by two by five versus a two by four. It's actually two and a quarter by five inches. And same thing with the other dimensions they're all full sized dimensions of the wood. And it's all, you know, white pine or spruce and it has just actually held up fairly decently for for non non cedar or black locusts or pressure treated. So in the sense that it's pictured today is is to replicate the fence that it replaced Yeah, I think that's, you know, I would like to have a discussion around I'd like to get more information on really is this a historical fence? Is there I can't get that information? I don't know why they chose this particular style. It's not a fence that you would see or have you seen anywhere before. It's a beautiful fence has granite posts pulling up most majority of the fences held up by granite posts. But I I would like to move to something that is easier to maintain than to into fix when it gets broken, when a car hits it or something and something that would be essentially easier to maintain and replace parts. Yeah, I guess my questions are trying to get to the heart of what Robin was saying in terms of definition. Is it a replacement or or a recreation or anything that falls under the preservation definition? I think that the the preservation, if it's 15 years old, the only way that I could see it could fall under historic preservation funds would be as a restoration project. And if you're not restoring a historically accurate replica of something, I I don't feel like it meets the guidelines for historic preservation funding. That was the origin of my question, Robin. Yes, yes, correctly. Correct. Right. And I'm not I'm not hearing that, but. Yeah, I I agree with that reading. It doesn't. This fence from the application, this fence. Does not restore a previous fence. In this location or doesn't replicate the previous fence in this location. And if the goal is to have something easier to maintain, that's not a restoration goal. Sounds very reasonable. I see a hand, Hedy. Um, did you say, Alan, that the posts are granite? Correct. The the ornamental end posts that are at the entrance to each of the the dryways are made of wood. But in between those sections of sections range from about. 100 and was 109 feet to about 80, 85 feet. Um, all posts in between those ornamental wooden posts are granite. And that's what physically holds all those fencing up our granite posts that are in the ground. Thank you. I. I guess trying to find any maps that might show. What the fences historically have been might would they show different materials in different ways on those maps? I might be asking for something that doesn't exist. I guess my my concern is that we take down something that might be older than we think it is, especially those granite posts. Those those the new old posts on those entrances to me look. You know, I don't know. I can't tell how old they are, you know, whether they're colonial revival era or whether they're 15 years old, you know, they're sort of. Is there no money money through the cemetery association? And I speak, I don't know how it's set up in Amherst, I should. Is this. I know that Amherst has many cemeteries. Is there not any provision is my question that funds work in the town cemeteries or burying grounds, whatever. Ben, do you want to take that one? You probably know the ins and outs of the of the budgets better than I do, but just know, you know, I think maintenance budgets are stretched thin for for every piece of land in Amherst that we're trying to keep up, whether it's trails or fences or parks and all of that. And this is a big ticket item that needs to be replaced all at once. OK, it may be may very well not be the appropriate restoration may not be the appropriate category for this to be under. So it sounds like it isn't. Becky. Yeah, I guess we're talking about restoration and this isn't in in in the in the proposal. Is it possible to go back and take a look and try and do something that's authentically historic? Yeah, I guess that's what I was curious about that, too, from the commission members. If, you know, I'll do all the research I can, you know, working maybe with special collections to figure out what the historic condition of this fence was. But if we if we can find an old photograph or an old description of such a fence, if we were to then apply to. First, TPA funds to restore the fence to its previous condition would that then be more eligible? I think that gets into a question and Jane knows more about restoration. I mean, again, that's like a question of these definitions. So certainly it if you're if you're if you're replicating something that existed to make it more historically accurate, I think you're going down a much better path. But whether or not it meets the guideline is that's definitely a question, but I think as it stands, it doesn't really meet the guidelines for what the funds were intended for. I can just very, very briefly. Say something about the. The replacement of the the fence at the homestead in the Evergreens. That was specifically designed on the basis of existing parts and pieces. So, you know, we tried very, very hard to get the. The measure what we we did get the measurements just right for the pickets because we had existing 19th century pickets and same for the design of the gate. I think. A fence that. I sort of feel like a fence that is kind of like others that are around. Is not. Is not precisely restoration, and it's not. It's not precisely recreation. Jane, what is the one at the museum? What kind of wood? It is. It is cedar and then painted and painted it. Yeah, seems to be loaded really well. But it's not it's not a modern fence. I mean, it is an actual down to the materials. It is a restoration or a recreation of something. So you could not. It's not just a visual representation. It's a physical representation as well. Right. Yeah. Right. So to recreate a historic fence, you'd have to also align the materials. You couldn't use modern materials for ease of maintenance, right? Correct. I think that's correct. You might understand. Well, maybe the. All right, so maybe there are two things to think about here. One is, is there any other. Visual information about this fence and second. Second. Is there time to, you know, prepare this for this round of CPA. And a third thing is. I know I said there were only two, but really there's three. And that would be. Can it wait till next year? I would, you know, we can. Patch some of the pillars that are. The wood. The dry wrenches and keep them from falling over. And, you know, the fence is, is going to stand for another couple of years. So it's, there's definitely time to, you know, do more research and, and, and see where this really belongs. As far as it's funding sources. Yeah. Okay. So in our. Later discussion, I think we'll probably have to wrestle with this. I think we'll probably have to wrestle with this. I think we'll probably have to wrestle with this. I think we'll probably have to wrestle with this. Question about, you know, definitions. Cause. CPA can be pretty. Pretty strict in its definitions. So thank you, Alan. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. And. So Mill River trail. Thanks, Alan. Thanks, Ben. Hi, everybody. Hi, Eric. Hi, Eric. Was Eric there too? Oh, hi, Eric. Have you been here this whole time? We'll talk tomorrow. I've been working on my lecture for tomorrow. Oh, good. We're just going to be voices, right? You can be voices or you can turn your camera on either. Whichever. But we are. So as with other. As with other applicants tonight, we're just, we're, you know, just want to know if there's something new that you'd like us to, to know that. You know, maybe not, not included in the application itself. Cause I think we're pretty familiar with the project. And now that. And now this application. I don't think there's. Any other questions. Clearly you've seen this before. And it's a much, much more modest proposal. It's really the first step of a, of a larger project. It's necessary in order to be able to do the. The larger project. And we're thrilled that we have Eric's. Expertise. Yeah. To. Lead the project. Eric, do you want to say anything? I guess. Yeah. What we're looking at is the, basically the information gathering stage. Of the project. Which will lay the groundwork for the interpretive. Part of the project. Okay. And the, you know, we. I think last year we applied for with a description of our whole larger project. And it. Was distracting. But we still have the same goal of creating his interpretive trail and engaging the community. We've identified a. Neighborhood committee that will help us. Monitor it. But we really need this basic information. And a lot of the Reese, the information is. At risk of being lost. I may have told you last year that. I'm not sure. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Van Caner's mom did a huge amount of research. She's not alive anymore, but she gave it to peace West over. And it's in big boxes in his basement. And we just need to get. Some of that material and also look at the. Historical society. And. So we have sort of a basis of. Of what. What to build on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So there are a few remaining sites that are visible are really at risk right now. People are seeking. You saw the pictures, I'm sure. Yeah. Yes. Agreed. Yes. They are at risk. Yeah. So we're only asking for 12. You know, just literally the cost of Eric's and his colleagues research next summer. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Other comments, questions from commissioners. I think Meg and Eric for all their patients and dealing with the process as I. There were wrench in the works and I think things are in a much better place in terms of presenting this proposal. And I want to thank Ben for all his work too. And I'm really pleased. Please don't reach this point. Thank you for your patience. Yeah. Thanks for your patience while we figured it out. I'm glad we've where I'm glad we're, we've reached this point. This is a good place. So. We were delighted that heady and Robin went on a hike and saw some of the sites. And are all of them. We did the whole. The whole thing. And of course Eric's done it and. Yeah. So. Yeah. It's getting late and I don't want to over talk it. There's certainly a lot more that could be said, but I don't. You understand what we're trying to do. Yeah, I think we do. Yeah, I think, yeah, I think we do. And I think. You know, having sort of walked through this with you over the last year. So, um, you know, we admire what you're wanting to do. And I think it's a great way to, you know, I think it's a great way to. Have the information we need to make our recommendation. Great. And this, there's some anxiety on the part of the CPA about how many signs and blah, blah, blah. So we're working with the conservation commission and there won't be that many. You don't, you're not asking that question. So never mind, but we're working with the conservation commission as well. And. Trying to keep up, get our ducks in a row. Yeah. It is worth mentioning that in North Leverett, there is a project that is similar. Meg, to what we've been discussing with you. In the. Factory hollow area and Cushman. And I think. There's the sort of, you know, given our current sort of cultural atmosphere, I think it would be a really good idea to have a conversation with some of the non-Tangibles, including I'm trying to get to know who is having that relationship with the Barishe or the Barishe is heading up that project with people in Leverett, Ploon. I can, I'll email you. Yeah. So that they're doing. It's not the same as what you are working on and what you're that we're trying to nail down that are similar to and the desire to make visible and interpret and preserve things that are really valuable in terms of, you know, America's early 19th century New England early 19th century. So it's a more a kind of desire to cuddle up with other organizations that are doing similar things so that we so that we're kind of know that we have colleagues in right can, you know, adjoining adjoining towns actually, that might strengthen our right. There's one in action. Well, I'll get in touch with, I'll reach out to you to get the contact. But there's another one in Acton. This is also very similar. Great, great. And the idea of these trails, the one in Acton, it sounds like the one in North Leverett, is not just to preserve something in a box for history. Over here, you can't see me, but you know, that nobody knows about, but to give the public an ability to appreciate it and participate and protect it. And that's what community archaeology is all about, which is why we're so thrilled to be working with Eric, because that's his, his field. And I when I was a high school teacher at Amherst US History at Amherst High School, I used to get these research papers about these mills. And then along the Mill River, this one kid wrote one about the hat factory on Summer Street. And I got I've sort of been in my brain ever since then, the late, you know, late 70s. That kids, high school kids can research these things as well. Make I have one question, just for clarification for me. This proposal, this current proposal, does not does or does not include the fabrication of signage? No, okay, it's just the research. And then based on that, because that's where people had a lot of questions, we don't know how many signs there'll be. Yeah, the fact is that between Mill River, where there's the recreation park, where there's the canal, and the dam, there's nothing to see until you get to the Puffers pond area. Yeah, it might not be any in those people just we don't know. So the point is that we don't know how many signs or where they'll be or what they'll say. That's why we're doing this research. Yeah, I guess Eric, I, I think that's the number of signs where exactly they'll be. That's all this. That's all to be to be determined. And we're hoping to pull together enough information to help that happen. I think we work out. Yeah, I guess, you know, in reading, reading the application, it's, you know, it wasn't clear to me, you know, I knew that this was about research. But in reading some of the language in the application, the signage came up a few times. And it just might be just maybe keep in the back of your mind that that's that the CPA committee, like, yeah, doesn't think that this is about fabricating signage. Thank you. That's probably why they asked that question. That's really helpful, Jane. Okay, sure. And, and, and really spot on to work with the conservation commission about about that. Yeah. We don't want to compromise the conservation value of the trail by having it look like a museum or something, you know, we share and it's very fortunate this entire trail is on town property. It's amazing. We don't have to get any right of way or anything. We were very committed to maintaining the conservation aspects of the trail. As we're trying to add. And if one of the questions, for example, might be whether there'd be signage on Summer Street or anywhere else, or would there just be more like a website where people could go and read, read about where things were made? If I can just interject, I would just say, as you present, don't even talk about this. This is a fact finding mission. It fits probably under the administration portion of the CPA. We're excited about it. And we're going to leave the site. So anybody brings up signage to say it's not part of this proposal. Yeah, okay. Well, they already brought it up. So that's okay. All right. Yeah. Okay. Thank you so much, Meg. This has been Eric, too. Eric is you're going to enjoy Eric knows him. Well, he's a treasure. He absolutely. Yeah, he's a treasure. And we're so lucky that we have him willing and another his colleague participating because he really understands that this is in the end, a community project as well as a history project. Okay, well, thanks to you both. I think we're going to need to move on to lining up our duck. Thanks, Eric. Thank you. Thank you. Bye. We're gonna leave now, right? Bye. Okay, well, now we have a lot of information. I especially want to thank Ben for putting putting this list of funding request percentages. And then what's how much money is in the whole CPA pot this year? Because this is going to be a big help to us. So well, we didn't talk about West Cemetery, but we've talked about it so much before we know it's our top priority. So why don't we? I mean, maybe it's best first to prioritize these projects and then to talk about, you know, what kind of are there any amendments to the amounts that we want to recommend to CPA? So floor is open to priorities. Well, both the houses have things that are more and less crucial. Yeah, but both the houses are also the two projects that are the most crucial. They both, I mean, I think portions of both of them should be, but I would try them for first place. Yeah, I would too. And I would suggest that we talking to the people at Conkey Stevens, it's clear they need at least 120 if we were to split their 352 and assume they could get the second half next year, it'd be 176. And the Hills House, they were talking mostly about the Southwest porch, not needing everything right away as well. So we could also split that down a little and then ask for all four of these with just a ranking that maybe we say, even though these are ranked, they're all number ones. However, it seems that Web Cemetery is not a priority for this year. Can we just there needs to be some historic investigation? Hang on just a second. I think let's go let's go to raising hands, because this is going to be hard to do without that. And I would like to separate the dollar amounts from the priorities. So if we can, if we can rank order these, then we'll go back to them by lowest amount and working up. So let's see. First, let's see, let me go back to Pat, and then Becky and Jan and Robin in that order. So Pat, would you But what I was suggesting was that when we spoke with the Conkey Stevens house, we help them, I believe prioritize the order in which the repairs needed to be done related related to staging for the chimneys, the roof, the flashing other things. But that that the other things they're asking for could be placed in a second year request. And the same seem to be the same for the Alice Maud Hills house, that there were there were groupings of repairs that were immediately needed, but others that could be deferred. And, and so from those conversations, we are to be able to recommend an amount for the, the current CPA funds. The image historical society is a little, in my opinion, not clear. Because we don't have a bid or price or anything for us to go on. But I think, Jane, you particularly were helpful to them in understanding the architect, and perhaps a structural engineer. And so they will attend to that. The North Cemetery, I think it needs, you know, doesn't need to be in this year's recommendation, because there needs to be some historic study. And, and we were told that it, it could last a couple of years before it was necessary to replace the fence. The Mill River Trail seems reasonable to support at this point, because we've worked with them over a year. And the West Cemetery, I have informed an opinion. Thank you. Becky? Yeah, I pretty much agree with everything Pat said. So as a newbie though, the one question that I do have is, how can we make a decision? I know that the strong house needs lots of care. And it's an important, important resource. And I really appreciate that, that the board is beginning to, you know, really look at that. But how can we make a decision when we have no amount? I guess that's my newbie question. What do we usually do if that happens? Well, in my opinion, it's, it's an unqualified proposal. It cannot. Okay, it cannot be acted on. From my point of view. Let's see, Jan? I had crossed off the strong and the North Cemetery because it seemed from our discussion, neither one of them was appropriate. And that's why I had the four left. And I thought if we simply came up with an amount for the two houses and left them in the same order, that's why I was saying they just be the way they stand. One, two, three, four. Because the conky Stevens needs so much, and it will be the higher amount. And I think we should, you know, really support that, that they get at least the first year. And I, and I think they, they kind of fall into that priority level for me. So then it's just a matter of coming up with the amounts. Okay, just, just as they appear in the order in which they appear, even in the Mills, Mill River West Cemetery. Robin? So, yeah, I'm in agreement that the North Cemetery and the strong house are not eligible. Micah. And I would concur with everything that Jan just said with the note that both for the conky Stevens and the Alice by Hills house, that if we're going to carve their number down, it should be with enough room for them to finish whatever there should be a contingency amount padded on to the end. And just to remind everybody, and particularly the newbies on the commission, that the award is made, but the funds are granted in a reimbursement, right? So right then that people don't get they don't get a check for the award. They submit, they pay for things and they submit for reimbursement of costs. So if you award somebody $250,000, and it only costs $200,000, they only get 200. So it's okay to go a little bit over, because in the event that the project comes under budget, those funds will just be returned to the CPA pot. So no worries there. The West Cemetery, I will confess, I did not look closely at the application, but in all our discussion about the North Cemetery, I'm curious whether we have an opinion on signage and what makes the expense different? Let's okay, let's hang on to that question. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask Catherine. Hi, yes. No, I had put my hand up earlier. And I don't know if you had been able to see it. But what I had wanted to begin saying was that I thought that the strong house in the North Cemetery would be ineligible, which we've all decided is true. And I actually completely agree with what both Robin and Jan have said about the order going down. That basically I was thinking about the two houses as being the most important thing. And then essentially the way that they're listed on here is my, you know, just sort of descending order of things. I have a little bit of a concern about how best to divide up the projects for both houses, including something from our previous meeting about the Hills House, which that I don't think that they had factored in the need in their original estimate to have up scaffolding that would need to be up. And so I, to do all of the projects, I just want to make sure that when we decide what we would recommend that we're also just being cognizant of finding a number that helps them do all of those projects, but also taking in the concerns that they need scaffolding to be able to do it. Okay, thank you. Let's see, Robin, you have your hand up again. Yeah, I just wanted to say that I mean, this is where it gets a little bit tricky. Like the Mill River Trail is, it's almost like we have three, in my opinion, like three number one priorities. And I'd rather see left a little bit less money going to the two houses, you know, to compensate for that $12,000. I don't want to see the Mill River Trail not get funded. I don't think it will be, but I just wanted to make that point. I think it will be fine. And usually in my experience of the three years that I was on the committee, what will happen is the smaller projects can can generally get reviewed quicker. And, you know, they're sort of, they're sort of easier cells because they don't have such a big impact. Catherine again, and then Becky. I think that was a mistake. I didn't wear my hand. Oh, okay. Becky. Thank you, though. It sounds like you all have talked about the West Cemetery before. And I'm not sure what you spoke about. But what I'm reading, and maybe I'm wrong, is that it's repair of a chain link fence. And that doesn't seem to me to be anything historic. This is a very old cemetery. And certainly, they didn't have chain link fences back in the day. So I don't exactly understand how this would fit with the CPA, if someone could help me with that. Yeah, thanks, Rebecca. I'm actually just realizing I'm on the CPA website now they didn't include two of the attachments I uploaded for the project, which probably would help explain the project a lot better. But it's, and I'm going to email those to CPA right now. But it's it's not it's not replacing the chain link. It's it's removing the chain link fence and constructing constructing a historically appropriate fence to match the black, the black iron picket fence that lines the entire rest of the cemetery. And to I think Robin's question or someone else's question, we have I don't have images from, you know, going back to the 1800s, obviously, but there is descriptions of the fence in West Cemetery from the preservation plan. And it does describe it as like a metal picket fence. And I think that's what the picket fence in this was constructed in the early 2000s. That's what that was based off of. So we would be kind of finishing the job that was done in the early 2000s to include fully enclosed West Cemetery in a black picket fence. That's historically appropriate. Jan. Okay, I was just going to try and move things along by proposing that we give half of the request to both of the houses and all of the other two, which would bring us to 321 321,000. And if if 500 to 550, as Ben says, is more likely what we might get for our portion of the total CPA budget, then I would up the conky Stevens to two from 176, it would be 176 for them 83 for Hills, the 12 and the 50, actually 12, nine, I guess it would be 321 nine. If we should ask more to in order to get closer to the mats so we don't lose any, then I would, you know, I'd put another 24,000 on it for the conky Stevens, because they essentially need 120. And then if we give them a buffer, or they could do a few more things and just to help for the second request next year. But that would bring us around 350, which seems reasonable to me. I think that's an interesting breakdown. I because we may have, you know, we may have 500,000. I might be interested in giving conky Stevens enough to do the phase one and the phase two. And then I'd want to look back at the Hills house to see how they how their prior how their internal priorities, you know, whether we can give them a, you know, a priority one and a priority two. That their primary concerns were from for porch stabilization and some repairs. And then it's about 100,000 just for the painting. So that's why I was thinking that if we give them, you know, over the 66 difference, they'll get up to being ready to paint. That's kind of what my thinking was. And then do all the painting at once in a second year. But, you know, that has a good logic to it, I think. And the other thing is that, you know, a larger, we can always recommend a larger amount. The CPA committee itself can reduce the amount. But right, you know, we don't have to necessarily err on the side of super caution. So what do you what do you think of? Well, let me get there. Let me get their budget back up. The conky Stevens house, trying to get them through two phases. So let's look at those phases again. Yeah. I mean, if we break those two out, and we give Heady the information to take to CPA, she can always argue for the two, and if she needs to dial back to the one, she can dial back to the one. But that's good to have those two figures in line. Let's say the same thing for the Hills House. And so what are the figures for both houses? For phase one and phase two? Conky Stevens phase one is 120. 20. Yeah. And let's see. I think face. It was phase two, like mostly the porch. Is that right? Yeah, yes. It was like 240 4041, I think. I think all together it came when I did some math as well, it was like 359 something and change. I think it's also right. Asia boards, water damage. We're just back to their full amount. I don't think so, I think because they're full amount included, you know, the fence, the furnace, the granite steps, the interior painting, less the fence, less the furnace, less the painting. If we back those out, what would that be? Well, we've got door window door trim on the window dormers replacement windows. Orch sewing. But so it wasn't clear to me that the I thought that the priority for the dormers was the flashing and the roofing and not so much the windows themselves. I did too. So if we back out the window. Yeah, but if they're if we're going to do everything well, they have the staging, staging, then we'd want to do the dormers, right? Well, they themselves said that was further out. Yeah, but what if we included everything with the staging? Because that's that's a significant cost in itself. Well, then you would add 120 to the 120 that they already had, which would give us 240. And what about the roof flashing, etc. That's all part of the first 120. Okay, so so what if we did 240 then? What would that allow them to do? Everything except exterior painting, granite steps, furnace and shutters. Oh, and porch ceiling and fascia. Okay, so they backed out the furnace to their HOA already. They agreed to that. Yeah, but in terms of the numbers that are on here, it's still there. Right. But if they had 240, they could make a significant improvement. Yeah, they'd be a long ways towards there. They're great. I think the the most important part too is to make sure that they understand what that 240 can be spent on. Yeah, I think they're pretty, they're pretty savvy about what they need. Yeah, no, I'm just saying that when I let the, you know, the seatback understands that it's, you know, that we're just in the same way that we did it with the Jones. So, you know, we're, we're quickly clearly delimiting it because when we change the numbers, we just want to have a, we need, we need to specify what we're recommending and what would be the next phase, which would be the fence and the porch. So can we, I feel like we're, I feel like we're not on firm ground here with what we understand their first, second and third priorities to be. I think it might be helpful for us if we say, you know, we'd like, we'd like to cover priorities one and two. Can you clearly identify for us what that is? You know, we can go up to, so we can go up to 250 or 240 or 250, but let's also remember that they're doing an assessment of $71,000. So that's in addition to whatever we provide to them. So minus the price. Right, minus the price. So the plaque. Yeah, and a plaque. So do you think it would it be OK to kind of agree in principle and then confirm with them? Yeah, I mean, I mean, you could tell them our thinking that we're putting in everything that we think should be done with that initial staging. Right, right. Yeah, and if you confirm them and we get an email from Ben, you know, just laying it out, then if any of us has, you know, the in the unlike the event that any of us had an issue with it, right, we could call another meeting, which we won't do, but we could do, right? That would be the way to handle it tonight. I guess is what I'm trying to suggest. Yeah, so that. So if we're specific about what we're backing out for this year would be the fence, the furnace, which they will take responsibility for. And what else? I think that's the easiest way to be specific. We're going to ask them. OK. Yeah. Because I think that information will be conveyed to us. Yeah. And then on the Hills House, really, the things that they say are crucial are much less than half the price. But I still think we could give them half and figure they could get the rest next year. Or we could just take out the paint, the painting quote, which is one hundred six hundred thousand six twenty five. The carriage house is another nineteen five. I mean, really, half of it would cover most of the work they need to be done. Yeah, and then we could add a buffer to that. I would look up for a bullet that. And we give them a hundred of this hundred and sixty six. Say that that makes sense. Is there a reason is painting not eligible? Or is it no second phase? Yeah, I think it's a second phase from what they've just got what they talk about as their crucial issues on their application. They think the house has not been painted about 20 years of showing signs of wear and tear and other damage. I mean, it doesn't. But they said the Southwest porch roof and the porch repairs are urgent, do rot and leakage. So the painting sounds less important in their application. So if you take Southwest porch and column, Northeast porch repair, Southeast corner of house repairs, north wall repairs, the second floor roof repair and take out all the painting. It's actually not very much. So I'd like to make a case for painting. So we're focusing on things that are rotten. Painting protects all the other fabric from rotting. Yes, I think it would, you know, and I don't think our goal is to be parsimonious. I think our goal is to advance preservation. And so I would I think it would be a big mistake to take out painting because that could lead to further deterioration of the fabric and bigger problems later on and not much very later on because a 20 year paint job on a historic house is that's that's that's already at risk. So that's why we love having you here, Jane. Following up on that, I agree with you. And and this is also a nonprofit property that's being preserved. No, it's not on profit. I don't believe it is not for profit status, I believe the women's club. No, we're talking about the other house. No, we're talking about the Amherst Women's Club, the Hills House. Yeah, the Hills House is the women's club. Yeah. Right. So I would, given given the discussion, I would say to grant the full amount and get it done and preserve it. And because it's not for profit and it's and it is indeed a historic house where where the Salem Place House the the fence is non consequential to the restoration and maintenance of the property. It's consequential to the historic value of the property, but it's not consequential to preservation. Preservation of the fence, yes. It's not urgent. It's not right. It is actually a preservation matter, but it's not urgent for this round. It is a preservation matter, but it's not urgent where the Amherst Women's Club is a significant historic property. And what they're telling us is that in order to preserve it, this is essential. Well, if we put two hundred and forty towards the Conky Stevens, the total amount of the Maud Hills House and the other two, we come to five, eleven, eight, which falls right within what Ben was saying, would be approximately would get funded. So on the screen, it says four sixty eight nine. Yeah, even better. Yeah. Right. I'm inclined to go with this thinking. I think that that's really great, Pat. I when I first was looking at this, like I thought we had a significantly less amount of money for some reason. And if we have up to five hundred thousand dollars, I agree with Jane. I agree with you on this. I think we should give the full amount to the Amherst Women's Club. I do, too. Yeah, I will. I will say and I think maybe Robin can speak to this better, too. Like I based that five hundred thousand number off of that the CPA committee deciding to split the total one point five million equally amongst historic preservation, housing and recreation. So that's not always the case, but I think that's generally a guiding principle for them. And so that's kind of how I came came up with the other two. The other two groups may not have as much. I mean, yeah, I can say they definitely do. They do, they do. But I think for everybody to understand that this is a two stage process and that we aim high. Yeah, but we aim high within the bounds of what is both urgent and also what is what meets the standards of preservation. So I think this looks really good to bring to the committee. And then we just have to and I will help, you know, Hedy be prepared to, you know, have to reduce one of those fingers. That's the really important thing now that we've prioritized and we agree on the preservation goals and agree that it meets all the standards to what happens if she gets there. And, you know, there's seven other people there who don't want to give $240,000 to this coffee seed and sauce. Then that's when she's going to want to know, well, you know, we can't go lower than 120 or whatever, you know, like to understand with the staging piece and to understand that number will help a lot. And the same thing with the Hills House, because. I mean, Jane, your point about painting is a really good one. I don't quite know how to split the hair on that. But the question is, you know, does $100,000 worth of painting need to happen? So if if there's pressure at the CPAC meeting to reduce these numbers, we just need to know how 12 the Mills River has went from $40,000 to 12 nine. That's not getting any lower. I think the West Cemetery is getting any lower. So it's just knowing how to how to argue for and be able to negotiate on those two big house projects. I don't really really to be able to strut. I mean, it's pretty clear to stress the urgency of these particular repairs. They're clearly both incredibly time sensitive. So I just have one question and not to divert because I've been on the tours of the West Cemetery, understand the construction that's going on and want to preserve the boundary of the West Cemetery. But is there any chance that developers would contribute something to the replacement of the fence? So the developments on the other side of where the chain link fence is going to be replaced, but they the developer will help with the relocation of the fence to align with the property line. That was part of the conversation, but not the cost of the fence itself. No, because, yeah, it's on the other side of the cemetery. So what we're looking at here is the cost of the fence and the signage. But it's not the fence where the development's occurring. It's against the parking lot where there's an existing building. The fence for the developments occurring is different, and that is being covered. So. OK, all right, got it. And so Ben is, I mean, we didn't really address the question of how urgent the West Cemetery fence is. I mean, does it if somebody said it, see back, well, you know, you got to cut $50,000 from it. Would we say, well, you know, we can roll this one into next year or not? Um, I think there's certainly a lot of. Yeah, just wear and tear on that fence. And it's starting to, you know, there's vegetation starting to, you know, move, grow in and out of it. It's it's might take itself out pretty soon. We'll see. But I. Yeah, I think it's similar maybe to the north. Cemetery fence where it's like it's just year after year. It's reached its useful life and year after year. Just one year closer to, you know, being dangerous, falling over, you know, not just failing altogether. So, you know, if it if it waits another year, will it will there still be a chain link fence there? Yes, I think so. But I think it's been one of those projects that's just been kicked down the road year after year. So, Eddie and Robin, if if we came, if push came to shove that we had to reduce our recommendation. Could that cease to be a priority for this year, Ben? Um, if it came to that, I guess so. Yeah. I mean, and I think you guys have indicated that in the ranking that it's, you know, the lowest it needs to be done. No question. But but I'm just saying, you know, if if if the analysis of what funding we would recommend gets lowered, then where do we go from there? I think I don't, I personally wouldn't want to lower the Conkey Stevens house or the Hills house. And I think the Mill River trail deserves to be funded. Yeah. Yeah. And so we the only place to go would be whether to put that in another year. But let's keep at least the 11 five for the signs of that budget. Sure. Oh, I think we should make the recommendation. I'm just talking about, you know, but I mean, if if there's a meeting that's nailing, heady on this and saying you've got to cut your fourth priority down and say, OK, we have to keep the 11 five for the signs and we'll push the fence the next year. So let me ask a question about the fence. We were pretty. Explicit about the North Cemetery fence. What about the Web Cemetery fence is preservation or restoration? I think Ben answered before that it was historically appropriate. And I would be inclined on a flat out vote to vote against it because it's I don't think it and we still don't have an answer on the question of whether signage is funded. So I I'd opt out of weighing in on that question. But about preserving the cemetery, not necessarily preserving that the fence is accurate, but that the historic cemetery is being preserved by the fence. Correct. Well, then that's a different argument than. That's what I thought. I mean, North Cemetery clearly isn't necessary to preserve that cemetery. It's just decorative along the street. But here, right, you know, that's a whole different function for the fence. Well, then it would be there we go. That's good. Right. How do you feel about that, Jane? I think that's a tough one. That I think that would take, you know, going into the ins and outs of the CPA bylaw and. You know, that that becomes a definitions question again. I mean, I don't, you know, we we rejected or I rejected the historically appropriate argument for North Cemetery. But if we're talking about protecting the cemetery itself, you know, that is that restoration, is that maintenance? Is it security? They could come back. Responsibility. Right. But if we're if we're arguing about protecting, if we're arguing about protecting the cemetery itself, then I would say that it doesn't have to be historically appropriate. I mean, it could be the cheapest fence that would protect the cemetery. I think that might be where I go with that. It's a tough one. It's it's a tough one. And I would leave it in, but heady if push comes to shove and our number gets reduced, I think this is something that could be put into another year. To be proposed again. And I just wanted to say, Ben, you know, I know you haven't gotten an answer from our our legal counsel either. But I always feel like instead of us bouncing around with these definitions, I feel like once we come up with struggling with one of them, the lawyer is really the one that if there was an issue with it, they'd be the one to argue the case for or against it. So I know that I don't want to lean too heavily on them, but it seems like when we get to a point like this, we just we ask the lawyer's opinion. If they say it's fine, then we can say it's fine. Right. OK, heady. Yeah, I'm I'm very I'm very unsure of my ground here. I'm really new to this. This is granular to a point where I'm not sure I'm going to be the best advocate for for our position. I think there are a lot of things that are contingent at this point. And I still don't feel like I've I mean, here I'm going to go, you know, where angels fear to tread and say, why are these two town properties not being funded through town funds? I know that's maybe that's a really dumb question, or I'm just really tired. But I what why are we talking about this in relation to CPA funding? That is a perennial question. You know, one of my biggest problems with this is. You know, is CPA a piggy bank for the town? Well, the one of the main things that, you know, I uncovered in the guidance is this question of definition of maintenance. So there's a definition of maintenance. There's a definition of what preservation is. Some preservation is obvious. The two houses are obvious for preservation. And this is gets trickier because it's like, OK, well, you're doing to something to something historic to make it better. There go its historic preservation. And that's what I think it's really doesn't serve us well to argue it amongst ourselves when the town retains council. To deal with these questions. So if we get to a point where we can't decide, the question of maintenance is a different one. And if we feel like the town is using the CPA funds to maintain something as opposed to have a real preservation project on its hands, then that that's a different question. But I don't know that that's the case here because. You know, I'm lost on this one. I mean, my my instinct is to vote against it. On the basis of definition. But I would my instinct is also to say, you know, maybe a lawyer the lawyer could tell us whether it's just an easier answer. If they say no, then we don't have to weigh in on it and spend all this time wringing our hands over what everything means because we're not the lawyers. I also think that the two historic houses are interesting examples where one one aspect of phase one, you know, leads to the phase two. And and, you know, it's almost like we're sort of up against a wall in having to really go for the larger amounts of money rather than being able to fund it, you know, sequentially in terms of this is the roof. This is the flashing. This is the facial boards, you know, and. You know, I I mean, maybe I'm maybe I'm just whining. You know, but I think that's that's kind of an expensive way to fund something. It is exactly divided up. That doesn't make economic sense. I mean, I was in a museum where we had to pay over two hundred dollars for a roof on a Frank Lloyd White House. And, you know, I was the tail wagging the dog in the museum. And, you know, I. I think I think it's late. Yes. And I think what we've come to is, you know, we if it wasn't a question of, you know, limited funds, we've come to where with the question of the cemetery funds, we've come to where we are in support of dollar amounts. And then the next step is just to see what happens at the CPEC meeting, Eddie, and you make your arguments, you know, as as and you you you you pitch that against, you know, another four hundred thousand dollar project. I haven't looked at the other. I'm just throwing that out there. I haven't looked at the other proposals, but for something else that can weigh the strongest argument here is that these two houses can't wait. And I apologize if I open the Pandora's box about West Cemetery. But if anything has to go in this funding round. That's where I started. So can we decide that we will ask the lawyers about the cemetery and let the lawyers guide us? We will go back to Conky Stevens and ask them for their highest priorities in terms of the funds that we're offering. And if if the lawyers say the less cemetery project does not qualify, then let's add that money onto the Conky Stevens and give them more instead of absolutely 40, give them three hundred and just and just know from tonight what we're going to do. And can we just make that decision now? Because I need to get off this call on this all day. You know what? I agree. It sounds like a motion. All in favor. All right. It's seconded, by the way. I think. Thank you for the second. OK. Is there anything you want to talk about with the writer swap then? Yeah, that sounds good. I guess maybe I'll I will say maybe I'll follow up with Jane after this meeting, because I'm a little bit confused. What's wrong with the West Cemetery? Proposal and I know it's it's a lower priority than others. But I think at our last meeting, we did talk about how the historical commission, that was like the proposal that you guys were putting forth. So I understand maybe it wasn't conveyed clearly, maybe like what the exact proposal was. But I think maybe I just need some clarification on if it gets to that point and if and if it's question kind of what what exactly needs to change about it. But otherwise, yeah, I'll talk to Jane about that and anyone else. But otherwise for the Writers Walk event, it's in two days, so it's on Friday the 22nd at 4 30. And obviously everyone is welcome to attend. It's outside of 97 Spring Street, which is like the five college consortium building. It happens to be that's where the Garris House is and the top Mabel Loomis Todd House is across the street. So it's kind of like a nice meeting area because there's two two signs right there. And the program is pretty basic at this point. We're just going to have the town manager, town council president, say a few words. I can be kind of like the emcee for the event. Um, and I've been and then I think Jonathan Tucker, who some of you may know, the former planning director for the town and Amherst history buff is going to say a few words about the origins of the project. And then I think I'd offer and and or Jan the opportunity to talk if they'd like. But I also want to be mindful of people's time. But I think the the two two other things we're thinking of doing is like I think I wanted there to be some sort of like celebratory moment. It's not quite like a ribbon cutting. It's not like groundbreaking. So I wasn't sure, like, what are we going to do? But I was I was talking with some folks in Town Hall about maybe just having like an unveiling. So I cover one of the signs in like a literally probably a tablecloth or something and then having like a celebratory whoo, like unveiling of the sign. And then everyone has to go and then and then I think we would open it up to an optional tour if people, you know, folks would be free to leave at that point. But we could then walk. I was thinking up Spring Street to the in on boltwood, where there's another sign and then over to Main Street, where there's the Webster sign and then up to Amherst books, where there's a window display is my understanding. They're working on a window display for some of the authors. And then at that point, just kind of dispersed from there. So the only thing I would say then is I'm happy to forego saying anything as long as we really make it clear. And I know I emailed you this that and Jonathan are kept minimum because people will be standing there for hours. All of them go on. And it's just it'll ruin the whole event if everybody gets bored. And, you know, is, you know, I totally agree. Jonathan said he'll keep it short, even by his standards. Well, standards. Yeah. So maybe, Jen, you should go first. I'm not speaking. I'm not in this. OK. And put me on the list. And that's fine. I'm happy to forego and let Jonathan talk. I just don't want them going on and on and on. If they're going to, then take them off and I'll say something for two minutes, you know? It's not it's not about them and their knowledge and whatever. It's just letting the town know that we've got this now, you know? I think it might be really good to check in and see who we have there. That's when I gave tours, you know, check in and see who your audience is. And and, you know, we need to know who's going to show up and be interested. And, you know, I hope there's an opportunity to do that. Find out why people are there. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I have to get off this call. I have a really important thing to do tonight to do with my job. And I need to leave. So. Good night, Hennie. Good night, Hennie. Before I see Becky St. OK, Becky Sanders, I just didn't. Yeah. OK. Just a quick question for a further agenda. And you may have already talked about this in the past. I've spent a lot of time at the West Cemetery on various different days. And it is in great need of care, as we all know. And I guess I'd like to talk about how we can make that happen down the road. It is not tonight. Talking about the headstones. We've been having that. Yes, and we're working on more each year. Yeah. Good. So I think that I mean, it's just, yeah. At this point tonight. Well, yeah. At this point, let's just formally adjourn. And if anyone wants to stick around and talk about West Cemetery, we can do that. I move we do. I second. I second.