 Okay, welcome back. We were looking into suicide. We looked at certain symptoms of suicide. What are some of the things that we need to assess, need to work through in order to help someone? The next couple of slides is continuing of how we can work or what are things that we need to keep in mind as we are helping somebody with maybe having thoughts of suicide. For you to just, for us to just understand that, you know, how do we help? And there are some things that we can, a certain model or a certain, if you'd like to call it a formula, in really seeing how we can help, whether it is someone who has depression or whether it's someone who may be coming with significant sadness. One of the things that we need to always do is look at it from a holistic perspective. So we always may look for a spiritual explanation. But when we're looking at working with people, we need to try and see, take this focus. So if you look at this flow chart, the important thing to do is first and foremost see if there is any biological contributions. If you remember when we did the class on mental illness, mental health, something that we spoke about is some kind of physical conditions can actually cause significant depression. Remember we said that, yeah, like a thyroid or a vitamin D deficiency, all of that can cause or even the fact that a person is not eating too well, a nutrient deficient could also show signs of depression. So the first and foremost thing that you would do is to ensure that they have, whether they've seen a doctor and whether they are physically all right, whether physically stable, then you will look at the psychological part of it, which sometimes they may have internalized anger, they may have a sense of low self-worth, they could be the person may have resentment, the person may be going through significant grief, all of that is something that we would look at the psychological part of it. What kind of emotions are they actually bringing about? The next part that we will look into is social, what is happening within their social group, all right, within the people who live with them, are there significant struggles there? Is there a support system? And then from there, you will move on to see where they are spiritually. How is it that they're experiencing God? What is their relationship with God? So don't just take one of these methods, just psychological or spiritual, but make it holistic. And the more that you get from a broader to a more narrower place, it helps you to eliminate the, maybe the ones that, if it is just a physical condition, just getting them to meet with the person who is able to help them with good food or enough vitamins could probably relieve all of that. Once you've done that, you get into the psychological, the social and then the spiritual. So what is, okay, I've put two examples here and it's like something like, let's say like a case study, okay, and like a roleplay and let's let's try and see how we can work this out together. So the person who you've met is saying this, this world would be a better place without me. Everyone will be far happier. What is the first thing that you will do to respond? Francis, look at the case exam. What would you say? This world is a better place without me. Everyone will be happier. What is the first thing you'd say? Sorry, attempt, attempt, it's okay. You can, but that's maybe not the right time to ask. So what will you, what are they saying? What are they expressing to you? What made you think like this? What happened? Remember, these are questions, no? What should we be doing? Yeah, so how do you want to empathize, Prince? Okay, great. Okay. I don't know what you're going through, but probably it sounds like it's extremely painful. Very good. Then okay. Okay. Okay. So what would you say? Okay. So what is it? Sorry, it's a hard statement to make. Oh, you're saying that. Okay. Correct. Okay. Okay. There sounds to be a lot of pain behind that statement. Very good. Good. Good. Shiv Kumar is saying something. Yes, Shiv Kumar. He texted. I understand sometimes it feels like this. Okay. All right. Okay. Let's any other thoughts? Any other students? Any others? Anybody else? Your pain is very valid. Okay. All right. Good. Good. Good. All right. Let's look at the next one. What does the next one say? I am going to end it all today. You can. There is a time for that, Francis, but when they're saying I'm going to end it all today. So they always think about this, Francis. Suppose you are very angry. Okay. And I am going to, if I were, what would be a better sentence to us saying, hey, Francis, I see that you're really, really upset now. Or should I say, you know, who made you angry? What is a better statement? Who made you angry? That's a better statement for you. Okay. All right. Okay. Different case. Yeah. But this is not the solution. Okay. Okay. I was waiting for a remark like that. So when, when you say this is not the solution, what do you think? What do you think the person who's telling you this, I want to end it all today? What position are they in when you're saying, but this is not the solution. Hesitation for what? Hesitation. You're right. Hesitation is the right word. So they may not want to tell you more. Is that what you meant? Yeah. They may want the very fact that he's told you this, I'm going to end it all today, is a fact that he wants to talk about it. So you're giving them an opportunity to talk, but if you, if you say something like that's not what you should be doing or, you know, how is this the solution? That means we don't understand the strength of their pain. Right. But then, okay. So what would be, what would be more effective ways of saying it? What are effective ways? Please elaborate what made you think like this. Okay. That's, that's a good question because you're, you really want to. So that's what he's written. Is the pain so unbearable or? Yeah. Yeah. It appears that there is so much unbearable pain that you have resorted to this, isn't it? So they may keep talking. The idea is for them to be able to vent out. So anything that fuels that venting is the most important thing. All right. Anything else? It's okay for me even to say when someone says, I'm going to end it all today. I can't say I understand. Okay. So it's, yeah. So that'll come later. What makes you, so you can even say, you know, from what you're saying, I'm really not able to comprehend how painful this is because you can't say, when someone is saying, I want to die and you're in a very happy place, you can't say I understand. Because you actually don't understand the pain that they're going through. Right? But if I were to say, you know, I can see how painful it is you, but I'm unable to comprehend it. Can you help me with more with what you're feeling? So you're actually getting them to, to really talk a little bit more about what is that overwhelming emotion that's there. Okay. So continuously coming to a place where they're able to explore more about themselves. Okay. All right. So what is the help that you can give them? So the biggest goal when someone comes to you with suicide is what is to bring them to safety. That is the biggest goal. It is not to evangelize at that point of time to them. It is to bring them to safety. All right. All of the other help, the spiritual help that you have will come after this. Right now, they are in a place where they want to kill themselves, give up their lives. And the first and important thing is to ensure that they are safe. All right. So what do we do? How do we do that? First is listening. Just being there to listen and be empathetic, saying that you are able to see the pain that they're going through, the condition that they are in, the situation they are in, how helpless they feel, how hopeless they feel. See, when you're doing that, remember you're not agreeing with them. Okay. You're just there. You're just supporting and helping them see that. Okay. Pay attention. Okay. Next is you're establishing a relationship with them. All right. How do you do that? How do you do that? Yeah. Spending time, getting to really understand where they are at. So you're actually establishing a relationship, especially, you know, in any form of counseling, remember, you're not keep away the idea that you're sitting there like a person who knows everything and, you know, you are the know it all. It's not that way. You can establish a relationship only when you connect with people in there, even when you don't know something. Right. So establishing a relationship. Contracts. What are contracts? What is a contract? You're making an agreement. You're making a deal. Right. What is, how do you do that? Bargaining. Absolutely. Very good. So those are little contracts, you know, would you give me a commitment that, you know, till the next time that you talk, you will hold off, you will hold on. So what are you doing? You're actually buying time. Right. So the next one hour, next half an hour or will you keep ensuring that, you know, just so something that I do is I kind of tell them, you know, this is very, it's a very powerful statement. I found this is a very powerful statement. You know, you are important and you come in connection with me and I know that you're a very important person right now since we've connected. Right. So then it helps them kind of feel that someone cares. Right. So you're important. You are valuable. Right now at this point of time as you and I have connected, I see how much value and worth you are off. So you are, you are good. You are unique. You are needed. Right. And then building that contract. If at any point of time you feel like this, will you drop me a message? Or will you give me a call? So making yourself available at that point of time. Okay. Then safety planning. Safety planning is first and foremost, when someone talks to you about suicide, should we be confidential or not? Okay. So it is confidentiality in counseling. You can breach confidentiality if you observe someone who is at harm to themselves or to others. Okay. You can breach that confidentiality because it's important to keep them safe. So safety planning is first and foremost, I will talk to the person and say I will need to discuss this issue that you are feeling this way with somebody and taking maybe a person's number. So what we do in counseling is when we fill a form, we take a number and we say in case of emergency, we will contact this person. So that is something we have it in the form. Right. And that's something that they sign because if at any point of time we see someone who is at risk to themselves, it's our duty to ensure that they are safe. So you will take permission and say, you know, I need to inform somebody about what you are going through so that you are safe. And when you're talking to someone, the only thing that you will tell them is what? That this person is at risk and they need help. They need vigilance. That's all. You will not tell them the reason. You will not tell them why, how, what, none of it. Sorry. You have to be confidential about the matter, but not confidential about the fact that they want to kill themselves. Right. So what you will tell is so and so person is, you know, seems to be at risk, has been talking about suicide and we feel someone needs to be with them or they need immediate help. So that is something we need to do. All right. And so so much so that because even like let's because you know that suicide is a medical legal case. Right. And that it's okay. It's medical. It's a legal case. Okay. So like in the hospital, if you go, someone's committed suicide, they will immediately report it as a as a medical legal case. Generally, all hospitals would do that. Right. So and as a result, there will be investigations and things like that. So if you have been involved and you have not informed, you could get into a problem. Right. So it is important to ensure that somebody in the family knows and that you've got your records and it's all there that it is that, you know, someone has been informed. Yeah. As a counselor, you are not diverging any information from what you have heard from your counseling to the family member. But you're saying that that there is a risk like this and they need a required help immediate help. Okay. The other thing of safety planning is that they get medical help. So someone who is actively suicidal probably also is undergoing some form of depression so that they get psychological psychiatric help from a doctor. Okay. The other thing is, yeah. Only if you have an order from the court. Yeah, it's best you don't because they have to confidential matters. It's a confidential matter. You, as a counselor, you don't divulge any information. Still, see the decision is part, it is a, it's a part of your protocol. It's your protocol that you don't divulge information unless it's a court order. Like, let's suppose they will come with some kind of an order saying that you need to give us the notes and things like that. So that if that is there, then because it's legal. But otherwise, if anyone asks, it's best not to because, you know, here in India, it's not as much, but in the US and things, you'll be sued immediately. If you divulge information that is, that's part of your counseling process without a consent from your counseling. So you've got to be very careful. It's not so much here but still we have to keep to that protocol. Yeah. Like think of it like even as a pastor, right, someone's telling you something, a family member comes and says, tell me what he said. What do you do there? Yeah. So it is it because it's a breach of trust. Right. So you wouldn't do that even to a family member. That doesn't matter. That doesn't matter. Okay. All right. Another thing of when you're discussing now as you keep meeting them, looking at alternatives to suicide, right? That is finding and helping them to cope. I know this is hard for you, but in order to cope with the situation, how could we look at other ways of how you can cope. So that's what it means by alternatives to suicide. Right. Rather, it's not about giving up your life, but what are other ways that you can deal with your trauma, deal with your stress. Okay. You may not know that the person who's coming to talk to you is suicidal. No. They may say they want to talk to you, but you can you, but you know, if you have the information that someone is suicidal, then it is you need to do the safety plan. And then you can let them know I'm not trained enough to deal with this. It's better you go somewhere, but ensure that someone is involved. Some like the family member or someone is involved. Many. Yeah, many. Yeah. Yeah. There was one person. This is during my college days. There was one, not call it my infant, my graduation days. There was one person who came in, shared. We bought the family in, but after a month or so, she committed suicide. Yeah, it has happened. No, at that point of time, so she was mentally ill. Right. So, so when there are, when there is that kind of a cover, that is, they are under psychiatric medication, they were under psychiatric help, all of that is sorted, then there isn't, it doesn't have as much as a legal repercussion. Okay. All right. Okay. So how do you start a conversation about suicide? Right. If you want to check, here are just a few pointers for you to, for you to take like clues. I have been feeling concerned about you lately. Right. Recently, I've noticed some differences in you and wondered how you're doing. Oh, I wanted to check in with you because you haven't seen yourself lately. Have you been thinking of suicide? These are important things to just begin to start that conversation. What are some questions you can ask? When did you begin feeling like this? Did something happen that made you start feeling this way? These are all the questions you all need to ask. No, this is where, how can I best support you right now? Have you thought about getting help? Again, these are all opening questions for deeper exploration. What you can say, these are some things you can say, I feel sorry, you feel that way. I want to help. I want you to live. I am on your side. Let's journey through this together. You may not believe it now, but the way you're feeling will change. Right. Or I may not be able to understand exactly how you feel, but I care about you and want to help. Now, all of this shows concern, shows care, shows that you want to be alongside with them. When you want to give up, tell yourself, you will hold for just one more day, one hour, one minute, whatever you can manage. So you're making a contract. This is a contract. Okay. What you don't say. Oh, come on, you will get over this. Don't be such a drama queen. Okay. How could you think of suicide? Your life's not that bad. Suicide is selfish and cowardly. You have your kids to live for. Others have more problems than you. You will go to hell if you die. All right. Or if you do, you will be hurting me. Okay. These are all very wrong things. Yeah, you shouldn't say this. Even as a friend, you shouldn't be saying any of those. Okay. So when someone is talking to you about suicide, the important thing is do not argue. Listen. Okay. Do not ignore it. Pay attention. Ask questions. Do not act shocked or lecture about how wrong it is. All right. Do not be agreed to sworn in to secrecy. They will say, Ravali raised a hand. Yes, Ravali. Jean, I have a question. As we were talking about how to address it. So when, as Christians and believers, so when someone comes and asks or tells us that they are having this kind of a feeling of suicide and all, how do we answer this into not being spiritual? You know, always take the spiritual side of it. And it's, I think as you pointed out, one main question is, okay, do believers go to hell or heaven when they commit suicide? And I haven't found a very, I mean, there are a lot of answers out there. So what would be, if somebody asks you this, what would be your concrete answer based on the word of God, apart from, you know, that this is the life God has given to you, and you should not take it. Okay. So to answer first and foremost, let's say a believer is the one who is contemplating suicide. Even if it is a believer, if it is a non-believer, the first thing is the safety plan. All right. The goal is to bring them to safety. It is only after the safety plan, after they're getting adequate help that you begin conversations towards the spiritual side. It is when someone is talking to you about suicide, that's not when you say, you know, if you commit suicide, you will go to hell. That doesn't help anything at all. In fact, it adds to their guilt. It adds to the shame, right? That why am I as a believer feeling this way that I want to kill myself? That means something is truly wrong. Maybe I'm not a believer that adds to the mess that they are going through in their heads. So whether they are a believer or a non-believer, the plan of safety is first. So my recommendation is that you do not bring in anything about spirituality then and there. All right. You can pray with them. You can pray with them that God brings comfort, God brings strength, God brings peace, brings a breakthrough. You can pray with them, but do not get into a place of ultimatums, you know, spiritual ultimatums. If you do this, this is what will happen. How could you do this? Where's your faith? All of that is not an appropriate, that is not an appropriate time to do any of that. So that's the first thing. The second thing is your question about what happens to believers who commit suicide. Now, I want you to think about when we're looking at suicide, but it's important to understand that suicide like any other situation of sin is the same. Like for example, you're a believer and as a believer, let's say you're walking down the road and you had a sinful thought then and there. You had a sinful thought. You maybe had an adulterous thought and right at that moment, you got hit by a car. What happens? No, you're dead. Will you go to heaven or will you go to hell? Why? You didn't get the chance to ask for forgiveness. So as a believer, I mean again, there isn't a verse or anything that talks about someone commit suicide, they will go to heaven or hell. I'm taking a principle that we understand of if you're a believer in Christ, if you're someone who has given your life to Christ, believe that he is the one who has saved you and it's because of that grace that you go, you spend eternity with him, that everything that happens, God forgives our sins, right? God forgives us and he forgives our sins when we are believers. He forgives our sins and it's a grace of God that leads us to salvation. So our salvation is not taken off and this is what I believe is not taken off because someone takes away their life if they're believers and if they have been through that journey of that salvation. You got that? Anand, you're looking lost, right? So we're looking at suicide. Are we looking at suicide as such a great sin where adulterous thoughts or stealing or maybe telling lies in the eyes of God, sin is sin, right? Whatever it may be. But for those of us who are believers are saved by the grace of God. So if we have been repentant, if we truly believe in Jesus, whatever sins we may commit, right? It's the grace of God that gives us a place into eternity. So in the way that I see it is that as a believer, if you have committed, let's say a believer has committed suicide or any other sin and then dies immediately, God's grace is what takes them because of their belief in God, their one-time justification of what they have believed in. What happened? Are you thinking about the question or something else? Okay. Yeah, so that's what I believe in. Yeah, but again, like I said, there isn't anything that says if you commit suicide, you will. But when you're looking at the principle of someone who falls, a believer who falls in sin, the justification is there as if you haven't sinned. Okay, Ravali, did I answer your question? Yes, I mean, I do have a follow-up question, but I don't. This topic can go on and on. So I want you all to, you know, we did a mentoring hour. I don't know if you were there in this. We did a mentoring hour on these two sessions. If you can actually go back to it and yeah, you may find your answers there. So I will suggest you go back to that mentoring hour. There were two sessions. I think the second one we had spoken about will believers who commit suicide go to heaven? We talked about this. Okay. Yeah, so do not agree to be sworn into secrecy, which means if someone tells you, I want to die, don't tell anybody, you do not agree to say, okay, I'll keep this a secret. You can't keep that a secret. You do not offer ways to fix their problem or give advice. Okay, you cannot fix or their issues. So in short, what do we do if someone is suicidal? Be yourself. Don't be afraid to ask if they're depressed or thinking about suicide. Listen, reassure help, tell a family member or some close associate, make a list of some supports they can turn to ask them. If you feel like this, who are three people you can get support and help from. And lastly, assess their immediate plan. What are they, what would they do? Their suicidal plan, their means, their time and the intention. Okay. And I had a video to show you which I probably will put up on the stream. You could probably see that later. So as believers, what is our focus? Our focus is first and foremost is after some point of time, this is not immediately that you're dealing with someone who's suicidal, you draw on what are the unresolved issues they may be having? What are the causes that they may be having? Okay, causes to lead them to this place, to help them to base their existence on truth and not on feelings. A lot of us go by feelings. I feel sad today, so I will do this. I feel happy today, so I will do this, but base life on the truth. Okay, truth that God is the one who helps, God is the one who saves, God is the one who restores. As a believer, you focus on trusting in God's word and that's what you're helping people with to trust in God's word and not their emotions because emotions are light to you. Emotions can sometimes make you feel something extremely different, but to have the faith in God's word, continuing to help them through prayer and leading them by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. What exactly is something that they require and need help with? Maybe it's just about self-esteem. Maybe it's about self-worth. Maybe it's about relationships that really requires, where they require that help from. Okay, all right. Okay, open to questions now. We have, I think, 10 minutes. Yeah, open to questions. What's the silence? Silence in the room. Any questions from the online students? No, thank you. Okay, Ravali. Ravali, go ahead. I said no questions. Don't have any questions. Okay, if there aren't any questions, then we can wrap up. All right. Next, I will be putting up your second assessment within one or two days. All right, you have time till 26th of April to do that, but please ensure that you do it for your final grades. And what all I'll be covering is still what we've done today, not next week's class, so you don't have to bother about that. So next week will be our last class and we'll just be looking at some ethical considerations when we look at Christian counseling. And we will end with that. So please complete your assessment before the 26th of April for your certificates. Okay, let's close with a word of prayer. Francis, can I ask you to close with a word of prayer? Thank you for this wonderful time. Thank you for your time. Thank you for the all two sections. Thank you for your teaching us and your things in the way of ministry, Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus, whatever we learn, we will use in this life. It will be glory for your ministry. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. Amen. All right, thank you everybody. God bless. Thank you very much.