 So welcome to our next talk how environmental friendly is software you probably know the software is a lot of resource-hungry thing and doesn't run well on the hardware So browser and games don't really run. Well green IT is something that's a lot of being talked about and People think about it quite a lot and there's a lot of research on how can these things go together and work together Two things about this is first research seconds Certification so there is a certificate of what is sustainable software and we do have two Fantastic speakers right here, which are going to talk about this. This is Marina Köhne She is a computer scientist and is has been working as a programmer for a lot of years now for 20 80 years She's worked at the Umwelt Bundesamt, which is the federal office for environmental issues and there's dr. Eva Kern Working in Bitterfeld and please give a big hand for first speakers Yeah Thanks for inviting us. We're really excited about us and it's a lot of people that we didn't expect that We thought we would have a small group here, but that's really exciting for us. So Yeah, so that was a very very pleasant greeting that we received and yes, now we're talking about Protecting the environment a conserving resources, but what we shouldn't Confine is the resource of knowledge because knowledge Multiplies if you share it and that's what we would like to do So we would like to share our knowledge and our own insights from our research We do have this agenda here. So first I would Explain why we as the Umwelt Bundesamt have this chopping at at all why we are talking about this So what's our concern there? Then if I was going to talk about our research results and Has she has going to present a lot of interesting results of measuring software actually be excited about that I like her talk. So I always keen on listening this and as a closing I'm going to explain the blue angel their blower angle in German because we try to apply what we have found in research and With as the seal from the Umwelt Bundesamt. This is the blue angel and I'm going to talk how we're going to proceed So the backgrounds and the motivation you see, you know this image on every event that you that there is a lot of Mobile devices being held in the air and you know and I know it's not only technology It's not only hardware. That's a lot of software going on in the background and a lot of people when they stream or record Record a performance and they send it to the WhatsApp groups that they actually Multiply data. So the consequence is here I'm going to show you the newest numbers of the Bundesnet cycle to a federal office for a network infrastructure and you see We see a very very strong Rising tendency of the data volume that's being shared. It's actually doubling every two years and You know if you think about your bookshelf at home and every two years it was a double That's what's happening with data. That's what's happening right now here. So these data have to be Stored they have to be shared which happens at server farms at computing warehouses and That means that the demand for Computing resources is rising and has been rising and we do know that we have to expect a very very strong even dramatic increase So I'll call the colleagues from Scandinavia have some prognosis here some looks into the future and if you look at the green Curve then you can really be afraid because There's not only more demand. It means we have an extreme increase in power consumption and in Rare metals that we need for the production of servers and chips and we would like to stay on the blue line So that means that on all fronts not only in the computing warehouses that we need to be more efficient regarding software energy consumption does not only happen in Server farms it also happens in these central computing setups so you might know about Bitcoin and that Bitcoin mining just consumes a lot of energy but If you think so you might know that the Bitcoin mining takes place in China where the power is made from burning coal and That means when we need to reduce our Carbon footprint then that's a development that we cannot say that's okay We have to say like at least is there a more efficient possibility? Is there Something that we that Bitcoin mining is connected to the The price of energy so the lower the price the higher the gain I have from from from Bitcoin and Bitcoin mining takes as much power as the country of Austria That's not peanuts. That's a lot of energy and that's what happens through software So I brought an example here we just talked about how software Contributes to the power consumption, but it also contributes to a hardware becoming obsolete so as an example here is windows and How much memory capacity windows needed in the start and how much? Processing power and then we compare to windows 10 We can see that there is a very heavy development that happened I can see right there in the back. Yeah, I mean windows 95 a lot happened since then Windows has become a lot more powerful but yes, but if you see the the windows XP Row you can see that windows XP could do with 1.5 gigabits of hard drive space and windows vista already needed 15 The same with memory vista needed a lot more memory than windows XP and that didn't and I assume that that didn't linearly grow with the feature set, but it's Product of software blow-up So a couple years ago when I had a spreadsheet program I could just use it to calculate things and nowadays I can edit pictures with it and Now we have to ask ourselves the question is that even necessary do we need more and more complicated hardware For more and more complicated So in summary On one side we have the problem that software contributes to more power consumption Of course, not the software itself uses the energy, but the hardware uses it but the software Sends the commands that make a hardware use the power and if I If I write the software more cleanly then it uses less power and By writing more efficient software I can also make hardware be center the Center retirement less early If you think about the rare metals in our devices we have very very valuable devices here Thinking about data formats about distributing data That's also a problem and the question is why a politic has not reacted on that well they Did not because because it's very very much more difficult to regulate software than than hardware so a law on If you think that there's regulations on hardware who knows the EU design Regulations on hardware it's about ten percent in the audience normally know about this most people don't know about this There is there is a law That regulates its computers TV devices They have to have a certain level of energy efficiency or they may not be they may not be sold in the EU And that's why in 2012 computers and notebooks have become much much more efficient But sadly this does not happen in software because it's much more difficult to do. I have a couple of cutouts here of the scandals that we had in the past months So a set of box doesn't go to power consumption mode printers don't work There is no more updates for all the systems, you know about this Well, that's the background why we say well, we we have to do research here We have to do some work and we need to find the method that the impact then that Measures the environmental impact of software and assasins it so that we can formulate Boundaries that we would like to have on software and finally arrive at some criteria that are measurable That are verifiable to have environmental and sustainable software now I would hand it over to Eva who is going to present that area and present what her team is Doing and some beautiful results Yes, so at the Umwelts campus Birkenfeld in the near Trier via researching on green software What is green software? Well, we didn't know in the beginning and now we also do not know in detail, but we Were thinking about well, what is software? It's what what drives hardware power consumption. So here is Something to make it more palpable. Here's a graph. So The software doesn't have a cycle on its own like producing development using and then Uninstalling it so that's this life cycle of a software product. It also has impact on the life cycle of hardware so hardware is being produced it's being used and then it's being disposed of and software is actually Using the hardware and but it's also Defining can hardware be used or can not be used. So how can we make it more lean? how can we reduce the hardware resource consumption and Well in the end that has something to do with the environment because the hardware life cycle that's Is it is connected to the environment and we want to reduce the impact that hardware has on the environment so we wanted to look at We wanted to look at the concrete mechanisms. How does it work? So? We didn't only do it graphically. We were looking at okay. Can we develop criteria that Could tell me is a software environment friendly or is it not so to make it palpable What are the effects of software on environmental issues? So the first question is energy of consumption, of course But the other thing is also hardware consumption how much hardware is being used and how heavily is it being used? and we were trying to come up with a method how we could Get a grip on this and the method is a three-step process. So first what we do is we look at the product and Then we see okay. What can it do? What are the functionalities of the product? What? what does it do and How what is the most common use case for a pro for a product and then we have the standard usage scenario in German standard scenario and then So that's the scenario. That's the common usage scenario and that's what we can measure That enables us to do step number two that is actually measuring we go there We record the standard usage scenario. So we have a software that executes Certain functions and then we measure the energy consumption and the usage of the hardware and we record that and those data so that we can Analyze it so first we have the measurements and on the other hand. We also have data that are for example in the in the documentation in a wiki in handbook Or so that we can analyze the software product as a whole in step three. We analyze it and we came up with some indicators and Then we just try to measure and figure out. Okay. How well does the software do with these indicators? And we would like to give feedback to the users as well as to the developers to show, okay Where is potential for optimization? Where is potential for? For to get more awareness. So what we want to do is also some awareness raising. So how does the thing look? So for example, there is a standard users scenario for Text processing for browsers content management systems and databases and well, that's Nothing surprising here because we would like to have the core functionalities that are typically used in the software So if I use a word processor, I edit text. I have something like a table of contents I would like to Adjust the view and then I would like to save and export it So that's the common usage scenario that we have looked at for certain product groups So what does a certain standard user do? So that's not a person that only uses one Part of the software we would like to have to use a scenario using a couple of the very typical functions So here's a standard user scenario of a media player. So nothing surprising here So I open the video. I might switch to full-screen mode I might skip forward and backwards in the video might even change the speed then I go to standard speed then I close the software and If you do this by an automated scenario that takes about eight and a half minutes Because we need some time where something is actually played in the media player and where we can actually Look at the certain parts and come up components. Well, how do they use hardware? How do they consume hardware? Okay, so regarding how it's measured. How does this actually look so in bit and fit we have a small laboratory That we call the software laboratory where We have a workload generator. So that's just one computer that just replace the user scenario and then Automate it's automated because we want to Do it multiple times so we can eliminate measurement arrows and Then this is all played on a system under text with which is just a normal PC Which processes the work and Then on that we can measure how much power it uses So there's a measuring device on there to measure that and then there's another measurement software that Analyzes which hardware components are used And then this generates an energy efficiency report Which can then be analyzed by the developers to see what the energy efficiency of Specific piece of software is so this is for example, what one of those evaluations looks like so There are results of various product groups So this is a media player when it started for example, there's a big spike And it uses a lot of energy and then when a functionality is switched it also uses More energy in a small spike this can be seen Because it's exactly measured when everything happens so we can correlate those things So one single example doesn't really help us a lot To see differences. So that's why we have a second media player that we measured the same thing with to see To see the Progress of the energy usage and we can see that's pretty similar And that's why we use multiple video players to Analyze the results and so in conclusion We have the the watt hours used by various media players in comparison So there is one media player that use 0.833 watt hours and The other one only use 0.479 watt hours, even though they did the same thing So that's one thing that we could see in the energy usage But we could also see how the processor usage and the memory usage varied and Was in total consumed so the same functionality with different software used Resulted in very different results So we also Didn't just develop the measurement method, but we also developed some tools because if only we do it in one small laboratory That's not that helpful. So we created some tools that enable other people to measure these factors with the idea that maybe in a software development process people have the possibility to measure their own software to Work as energy efficient as possible even during development So one of those tools is the so-called Oscar Which is a measurement platform where you can upload the data it's programmed are and it will analyze the data that Comes out of the measurement system These are for example the the details, which is maybe a little too much to explain now But as an example the all of the statistical data is used here Provided in a nice format and then there's a secondary tool Which is a Excel to XML tool? which enables Providing the data in a better format So this is not only available for text processing and browsers, but also For other software and we are still working on Enabling more different software. So we have looked into sustainability management softwares and Because we thought it would make sense to look into those tools themselves because they're kind of related to the topic and so we want to maybe contribute to How those kinds of software we will also look into image processing we will look into Web shops and we will look into PDF viewers and we're on those And to validate our methods for the future so what we also saw is that there are two main three main influences for the measurement results, which is for one the kinds of software we used Which is also dependent on the reference system, but Yeah, as we saw earlier When we look at different kinds of software, we see very different kinds of energy usage profiles and Depending on the kinds of software used with in this case two different text editing programs We can see very different energy usages and Here again, we can see that the Work process the energy used again Various and We again saw what what were the influences the kinds of software what software used did have an influence the next one is the common usage scenario and Again, we saw that again makes a difference how The the software was used whether we wrote something or we just looked at a page in a text editing software So all the methods have to be observed critically to see what kind of influences actually influence the measurement results to see if to To lessen the errors in the measurements again in the results we can see that Writing in a text processor consumes more energy than just looking at it in reading mode The last one is the reference system So the reference system is what we call the Program where the the environment where the program is executed what computer we chose for various criteria And we can see that on this device is where the software is running And this is also an influence on to the energy usage and We can see the various influences that we see for example for various reference systems There may be various energy usages Again in the measurements we can see that for different systems and If the reference system is older, then the differences are usually higher And we wanted to develop a method that is as solid and valid as possible and That's also that and those are these three influence factors So for example, this one is for text processing again. We have a Usage scenario that we thought of And measure two different text processors and measure the And looked at the the spikes in power usage and Got for the same usage. We got very different power results And then again this in Conclusion for the differences Because we often get asked doesn't even really make a difference and yes, these are for singular environments very small differences, but When you think about how many text processing Softwares are used for longer than 10 minutes every day, then we think that there is an approach there to look into improvements to look further to see how we can Develop differently so less energy is used and also Provide and create transparency Because this is an important part and that's why we worked on creating a certificate for this Yes, before I do that, I would like to get back to that slide that shows this fact so Here are wrong direction. So Yeah So regarding word processing we have looked at the look and if you go back one more you can see we at some point we stopped measuring and You see we looked at what happens afterwards and if you look at this up there you see that there's You have a nice baseline so for Someone who does energy consumption measurements that Person loves baseline. So something where you always get back to select the background noise So you don't see this in the lower part of the picture You even think the baseline is up there and now look at the point when we saved something They just kept watching and you see the software software at the top After saving it's quite if you look at the software below. It's still moving. We don't know what it does Maybe it's phone's home or something. We don't know what it's doing. So a developer can can recognize Okay, what is happening there and we had this one point during the research that was curious to me There were some very very enormous peaks. So what was happening there? Could you tell me what was what it was? I don't know that the blinking cursor. Yeah So the blinking cursor in a software program took a lot of power soaked a lot of energy and There is actually a faulty library and the library has not been changed and now we have quicker processors and It still peaks when the cursor blinks and we want to get attention from the people in the room People who deliver develop a software these tools are free. So take a look at them and take time to do more efficient Programming and think about okay. What libraries do I use and are they still efficient? Maybe there's more efficient libraries for using that but now for my part So I would like to introduce the blue angel for software. So if I just said, yeah, well, we took more or less a year but not so long as we projected because It gave us a really solid base. So the research work that they did so the ideas or the goal of the blue angel Certificate is we would like to Certify software that's very efficient on the hardware and Doesn't use as much of the hardware so that even old technology has a chance of running the software and also that energy energy consumption is low as low as possible and So these are the goals that we had at this point the blue angel symbol if you've Be the hardware store or so store a bite the pot some paint you have seen the blue angel symbol you have also seen on the toilet paper and There's also blue into symbols for computers There's going to be blue angels for servers and storage technology and there's also a blue angel for data warehouses and They've starting next year. There's going to be blue angel for software. So The blue angel doesn't want to set a standard it wants to certify the best of the best So we have very very ambitions ambitious requirements for that because having high ambitions that is a quick thing to do about how do you actually test that so That's what we tried and we think we succeeded. We found a couple of indicators that That we can check on software and a couple of them we could use for the blue angels. So Before I show the criteria, I would like to explain how the procedure for the blue angel works at the world bundles and so We are the institution that develops the criteria. That's strongly connected to research in almost all cases next thing we do is that we Present the criteria to the public and We would Like to have discussions. So we have this experts round table everyone who would like to can participate Of course, we invite people we invite people who are using this who are developing software. We are talking to Open source people we're talking to People from the industry and then we discuss that criteria and we also discussed our minimum requirements that we have Then we have the jury for the umbe weltzeichen for the blue angel sign There is a couple of actors from the society in there. So we have churches in there. We have environmental conversation groups we have people from representing the cities in Germany and they decide whether to have the the certification or not and So this fall we could convince the jury that this is a useful Thing to do and we now we can go forward with the blue angel certification for software. So what's the criteria? So as I said before resource efficiency, that's a really really important thing. So energy Efficiency and using and making use of the hardware that is something That's important to us second point is how long can I use the hardware? So the life cycle time actually off hardware So when do I have to retire a device? Because the software is not lean enough and the final criteria is we would like to have An autonomous user that so that a user can decide which module would I like to use? Can I switch to a different Software product at all so that he's not tied to a certain product that has no window lock-in at this point Waiting for updates, for example. It is it possible to actually completely remove the software from a device Sounds easy is not as easy in all the cases. So here is the criteria I'm not going to do go into super detail here, but it's it's already published Okay, you can read it, but I would like to show you a couple of those So what we would like to do is we would like to have measurements for all the time. So So the usage contract we have Goes until the end of 2020 and we don't expect just measuring at the beginning and then having just a protocol of that we expect that a software consumes less and less over its life cycle and We expect then when the software is being updated then we don't have more energy consumption as the software It's much worse. So and there is also a list of reference systems with the Blue Angel and people who Who want to get to the Blue Angel certification they have to prove They have to prove it runs on five-year-old hardware So transparency is also very very important so that regards Interfaces data formats. So we do expect that a user is possible to Communicate with other software products if the software is designed for that What we would like to do is have is modular software. So the user decided is do I want to have? Image processing with my spreadsheet or not so the user should have the autonomy to decide I want to have lean software We don't want any advertisements in the software that is not necessary. We want to do do not want to hand to have any Uploads or foreign phoning home. So Software containing ads is not going to be certified and finally We have this final evaluation and then you have to prove that the software actually has improved over the time and what measurements you did take as a company or as a developer to actually improve the software on these criteria and Now there's Well That's something we were not super happy with this because we had to restrict very very much And I first of which software we could use so we could only include desktop software While knowing that a lot of software is running on servers is running on the internet So either we would have to be very arbitrary with the criteria or we could have very demanding criteria On the desktop And so that's why we proceeded this way, but I can make the promise. We're going to continue We're not going to wait. We're not going to wait until the the research until the certification is done we are going to Include more and more software types And yeah, another thing is There is not going to be a blue angel for shooter games or games So we're going to certify games but we are not going to certify games that Promote violence. These are not going to get the blue angel certificate. So what are we? Going to Do next so we would like to have minimal requirements for the energy efficiency So we are measuring right now and getting some ideas. Can we actually formulate a Can we quantify the number that we would like to have? We would like to enlarge the Types of products that we can use and the scenarios that we can do and There's also this idea of having labs several labs who can do these Certifications, so we'd like to encourage people to install and certification lap so that people who would like to gain the blue angel that they can Actually have a certified lab that can do the measurements. So That's it on the blue angel and software that's what Eva and her team and we did and that's the research and The Umbet Bundesamt is also continuing on this so Alongside the Energy wasting of energy we have another topic that is very very pressing for us I've done this in 2000 already and that means the interdependency of software and hardware so that the software actually Actually regulates when hardware needs to be changed, but now we have household tools that are run by software and Products which used to be a usable long-term and now our short-term products You have to throw away because there's a software update that it's not possible or that is Not changeable. So there is going to be a research project that we are going to start in that we have started in this year and I've seen a couple from our research team. So could you just Stand and just wave And please ask those if you would like to talk about this topic so we We know it is a problem We would like to talk about how can we have criteria for a law so that we can have actually a European law for the echo design Law that says okay when there is hardware there is minimum There's Minimum requirements for the software. Okay. So that's it So there is a possibility for questions, but thanks a lot and Thanks for listening to us. So we are going to use the break to just say hello. These were your translators That's fLBerger Oscar and Ian and now we go to the Q&A So thank you for the talk we have a lot of time for questions so anyone who has questions can line up on the microphones So anyone who wants to leave please use only some of the doors Okay, let's start with a question from the internet, okay, so a user is asking Did you look into how the energy usage changes when the whole tracking that is implemented into modern operating systems is Included in the measurement for example in Windows 10 there are lots of tracking mechanisms So if we haven't looked into operating systems yet, what we did was we measured To find out a basis upon which we can measure we can distribute the data carefully onto Go to a microphone number one Thanks for the talk was very interesting. So I want to be thankful and not complain, but So it's all consistent, but it Does only get into a few areas a lot of the energy usage happens in the cloud and Even though I think that we should use our own computers more I am wondering whether you're planning to Get into cloud systems more and look into those Look into virtual machines and containers. What's the energy usage of streaming what are the Looming goals for the for saving on energy in these areas are privately used computers that more and more become less relevant and mobile devices that are technically very energy efficient But Offload more into the data centers. Will you look into that more that would be interesting and probably also easier to regulate Maybe a shorter question would be better So indeed yeah, we will continue on in that area of research We will invest more research into that as well. We have and we have invented technologies to Regulate the efficiency of data centers We are in discussion with the responsible people in that area But we will not be able to measure all of these products in side of this Bundesamt There are other products which are Definitely better what we want to do is Enter discussion I would be happy to see the intelligence inside I did inside of the IT branch To make software and more intelligent we are very far away from efficient devices even though people are other of other views That isn't really correct do not listen to that we did measure that and we do know that Computing centers do have a computing Requirement of 15% more than would be necessary what we do want to do is Together with other professors from other universities we want to form groups to So we would have professors that form groups and that do actual research To have it in a study curriculum so that people even when they're studying it have the knowledge to build software, so we're not Stopping Go to the next question not only ask short questions, but also get closer to the microphone next question from the internet Okay, so the next question is more into operating systems. You already said that you did not look into those But did you think about doing that in the future because the same text processing software on the Windows and Linux probably has a different energy usage Yeah, you know we would like to do this So this is something that we would like to do research on but right now This there is no going to be a blue angel for operating systems There's too little of them. So if we do something and you know the blue angel certificate is a lot of work Then there's the question of the jury. Well is there enough people who Who use that on people people who do this so we're going to research that but in another area and What we looked at is software that is running on several operating systems But we're not that far to have any palpable evidence But of course, we do know that pro software Consumes differently running on different operating systems. So we are aware of that and we're working on it So there was a was a was a talk on bits and boimers so that free software is not automatically more energy efficient So 25 years ago Niklas word from Zurich wrote on the software explosion So the English a plea his English a plea is still findable on his web presence So my question is Is the criteria for the blue angel Will that influence what for example state agencies will buy in hardware and software and What how does this correlate to the digital pact? Where a lot of money is spent on Devices for schools and Similar institutions well We are a scientific state agency, but what we can do is that we Have some impact on politics with our results and what we could do is that in the administration or the federal administration that the criteria have to be observed when Buying hardware for federal agencies. That's a start but Next year yet. It's actually next year Then we're going to have this cushion with the federal states of Germany So I'm going to talk to some representatives of them and that is one thing Because the pressure is increasing which is makes us happy at the federal At the federal states level when people buy hardware there. Yes, we can do something but I have to say that We since 2008 We have a green energy initiative on the federal state level in Germany and we have reduced energy consumption by 40 percent and people from the industry they glare at me When I say, well, you always say you are the best of the world But you aren't can you just prove it because we can and there's a lot of work to do right there But they are where we can have an impact. We do we try hard and we also try at the European level Yes, and I will have something more so I work for for Member of the Bundestag and that's really really hard to do it. So there's another question Okay, next question So as far as I understood The efficiency is mostly focused. So your research is mostly focused on Software so but efficiency is not only about how much less efficient energy is used in the end because when you looked at the video players When they get more efficient than maybe they implement high resolutions and use more power again Is this Observed in your measurements in any ways because computers have become the magnitudes more efficient Well, yes, exactly, but it's difficult to measure this rebound effect I totally agree. So in the moment where something gets simpler, we have this rebound effect So you don't have to actually get Drive to so to a video rental you can do a contract And then you can stream videos for the whole day. So making things simpler has dramatic increases in energy consumption and Yeah, so the the only thing that we could do up to now is to measure the life cycle of the products that Are involved and that we say, okay, the software has to run on five-year-old hardware So that's the first and only thing we can do. You're absolutely invited if you have ideas to to work with us We cannot know everything and since we started 2012 or 13 for the first time So back then There were three people when we had the first discussion with the industry So that was really really difficult to get researchers to get interested persons. It has changed but When we had this the jury discussion with the before the blue angel that it was the room was packed in a way I haven't seen before so for the first time there are new faces in there And I think that the topic needs time. Maybe we need other criteria, but we're not stopping So if you have a good idea, then yes, please talk to us the address should be on the slides What we also do is the energy consumption over time. So while you have the blue angel certification there's There's a limit on of 10% of increase of actually of the energy consumption of your product So that's what already was on the talk You have to measure all the time while you have the certification. You have to measure every update so That you can actually prove the energy consumption does not increase by more than 10% and also to Talk about why it has increased at all. We have not presented all of the criteria So that was one idea why I said, okay now fun is over. We talked about the European level We have the power management That has to be active on Computers and there's software who actually disables the power management of computers and there's a lot of more software products of that software products that are on network They expect the computer to be always on well as a developer You know, we have to think about if there's actually a good idea of it Don't we have a better idea for that so that a computer can switch to low energy mode and still retain data? Okay, another question from the Internet Does open source software have the possibility to get a blue angel if there's no heuristic Person there. Yes, of course, that's possible. We have the research on that. We have some lawyers who check that and and We have a good connections to open source developers if all criterias are met, then that's not a problem Another question so regarding the energy measurements so because we have a Project for measuring electronics as well. So we're working on configurable software measurement systems and So you said during the energy measurement you fixed some aspects About the computers you measured and did you also look at Configuration aspects because for example there can be a factor of about 100 for database management systems No, we have not checked several configurations. We know that this is happening, but we could not do any research in that So that's interesting that you do this I would like to talk to you and there's probably a lot of people who are going to would like to talk to you a microphone number two Okay, so For ma if we don't look at things being bought for Public entities Is there Something that is better for people that buy blue angel hardware or software Well, that's difficult. You know that the user can actually when when the person buys software then they can see and Is aware of the label It's on there. So the vendor can actually use it for for advertisements but you know with all blue angel products, it's It's it targets people who are very conscious about the problem. There's no more that we can do there Another question so back to desktop computers versus data centers. Is there any Any Approximation for the proportionality between those two Well, I have something in the back of my hand. I'm not really sure about it So it was I think half of the power consumption of it is in the cloud, but Don't take my word for it. So we have a lot of desktop Software, so people are thinking about word and axle, but I'm talking about products in That are in-house developments for administrations and that's desktop software and I'm also talking about smaller tools and Well, if you think about the carbon footprint, there's a lot of software that is running on desktop there is a couple of them and Because I have to present that to the jury that we think about a market. It's not that bad And so I think it's 50 50 desktop and cloud Okay, next question Do you all did you also certify your own software? Well, we couldn't because they're in the blue angel is not released right now, but So it has just been decided in December that this certificate is going to be there So of course, we're going to get certified, but it's open source. Yeah Next question Currently we use software that is being used a lot in our environment and we looked at people Okay, how do people use that? Of course, we cannot rule this out because we cannot do measurements worldwide We have looked for statistics how software is being used what functionality is being used, but there's no data on that so There was this idea how how is software being run in the in the other University? But then again, it's privacy and data protection. So we could not do that So we cannot rule it out that our standard usage models do actually not Measure the standard usage But we think the core functionalities should be in there and with open source software we actually talked to the developers and we developed together and we talked with the companies and so We rely on that they whether the weather user questions come from for a product for Okay, next question so here in Germany we have this tradition of Software cheating on tests. How would you prevent software? behaving differently under tests and then setting wrong incentives because the software is locally running less and starts using the cloud more for example, but then again using more Network resources, but still gets the blue angel Yeah, that's why in the first step We would like only to certify software that is only running locally on the local machine so because we don't have a usage model for data centers and So if Computing goes to move to the cloud from from software and then we have to think about it So that means it's only a first step and it's using the local computer I Sure, there are no behavior differences just because the device is under a test Well, there there is no fixed lab situation. So what we do is we are Checking in labs that we know there is auditioning or there's an peer review on that on the if the data is plausible that we receive from the labs and We for example, we have to check whether the software actually runs on a five-year-old reference system And that means there's going to be persons who check that and our procedure is Well, that's not unheard of we also have it with data centers There's also data a blue angel for data centers and you could tell anything there. So there's reviewers that actually check the numbers look at the numbers and That's just look at the validity and the believability of the numbers and the measures of it, but Honestly, we have a 40 year 40 year history of the blue angel and there has been no scandals in that time And I think that's something because we are that good. Yes But the other reason is that people who actually want to be certified. They want to prove they are good So the worst thing would be that they wouldn't be as good as they were when they tried to be certified. So Is we are the first ones to know when something doesn't work And so they're there there was a competitor of a data center who was wrong about the blue angel and so there was A case in there, but it turned out to be wrong And so we have we have companies to go through our pains takingly process and it's also not not very cheap it's expensive and Yeah talking about time. We are at the end of time. So there is a lot of a lot of Demand for discussion. So let's talk to the speakers now or later and But I think you will have an opportunity to ask questions Thanks again for the questions and a very very big hand for the talk. Thank you. Thank you for coming