 The next item of business is a debate on motion number 1792 in the name of Shirley-Anne Somerville on the implications of the EU referendum on higher and further education. I invite members who wish to speak in the debate to press the request to speak buttons now. I call on Shirley-Anne Somerville to speak to and move the motion. Up to 13 minutes, please minister. I welcome this opportunity to open this afternoon's debate. The people of Scotland have given a strong and unequivocal vote to remain in the EU. I believe that that is the result of Scotland recognising the social, the economic and the cultural benefits of EU membership for individuals, businesses and communities. That includes the benefits for the staff and the students who study and work at the universities and colleges across Scotland. Parliament will be well familiar by now with the five key interests that the First Minister set out following the referendum outcome relevant to today's debate. Democracy, economic prosperity, social protection, solidarity and influence. Given Scotland's unequivocal support for remaining in the EU, the First Minister secured a mandate from the Scottish Parliament to explore options to protect Scotland's relationship with the EU, maintaining membership of the single market and freedom of movement. Since then, Scottish ministers have engaged closely with our counterparts in the UK and across the EU to ensure that all options are kept on the table. We have established a standing council led by the principal of the University of Glasgow, Professor Anton Muscatelli, to advise the Scottish Government on securing Scotland's relationship with Europe. I welcome the council's prioritisation of universities and colleges as an early topic for consideration. When the day is immediately following the referendum, I personally made contact with most of our university principals, University of Scotland and NUS Scotland to listen to their views. I followed that up with further discussions with principal, staff and students during my visits to colleges and university campuses over the past few months and a visit to the University of Dundee this very morning. I am also grateful to the role played by our chief scientific adviser, Professor Sheila Rowan. She has been reaching out to the sector in a number of ways and was indeed in Brussels only last week meeting key stakeholders. In my time this afternoon, I would like to highlight three issues that I believe are greatly affecting the sector—public, funding and influence. The impact of the EU referendum on students and staff is the issue that has been raised by everyone when I have spoken to them and reflects my concerns. That relates to the free movement of staff and students across Europe as well as to the attractiveness of our universities and colleges to staff and students from the rest of Europe. We have a world-class further and higher education system. Indeed, only last month, the Times Higher Education supplement confirmed that Scotland has five universities in the global top 200. That quality, underpinned by freedom of movement, has attracted the brightest and the best students from across Europe to study here and to make Scotland their home. That has acted as a catalyst to reinforce the quality in the reputation of our sector, supporting Scotland's influence as well as collaboration across Europe. The latest figures from HESA suggest that almost 21,000 or nearly 9 per cent of our university students are from the rest of the EU. Students from across the EU and beyond add to the diversity of our communities and campuses enriched the learning experience for all and support local businesses and jobs. I and the Scottish Government greatly value their contribution. That is why the Government moved quickly after the referendum to reassure the EU students that there has been no change to the current funding arrangements. In June, we confirmed that eligible EU students studying in Scotland, including those who start this year, will continue to benefit from free tuition for the remainder of their course. The news that funding status for students from the rest of the EU starting in 2016 is much welcomed, but we have already seen in evidence to the education committee that some concern has been raised about the effect on students who would be starting courses potentially in 2017. Will the Scottish Government be able to confirm that funding arrangements for those students will be the same as it was this year? Shirley-Anne Somerville? Thank the member for that intervention. I do fully appreciate that the point that Ross Greer is making is a point in which the universities, the staff and the students have made to me when I visited them and they continue to do so. They are actively considering the contribution that we can make to moving this debate forward when we are looking at the 1718 cohort. We are looking at that and I fully appreciate that the concerns that the universities have over that. I am very proud that the universities are a destination of choice for staff and students, not just from the EU but from across the globe. My ministerial colleagues have urged the UK Government to clarify at the earliest possible opportunity the immigration status for the EU nationals living in Britain once the UK formally leaves the EU. I would also add that I welcome the consensus in Scotland that we need to return to a post-study route to allow talented students to remain and contribute to the Scottish economy. The outcome of the EU referendum makes that more critical. I was therefore disappointed to see the UK Government pilot scheme on post-study work visas only applied to four institutions in England. I am greatly concerned by reports coming from the Conservative Party conference this afternoon about Amber Rudd placing further restrictions on the amount of international students who can come to Scotland in the UK. Liz Smith. I agree with her in much of what she said about post-study work visas. There was some indication, however, that there was going to be a consultation about those visas. I think that that is a welcome step forward. Shirley-Anne Somerville. It would be absolutely fantastic to have a consultation. It would be really good to have that consultation before the four institutions in England had actually been chosen so that we could take part in that. If the UK Government would like to take a step back and consult, that would be very much welcome, but we are certainly must be missing that letter in the mail that would have suggested that we could contributed to the four institutions that are currently taking part. Asocrates or erasmus exchanges within Europe for university students began almost 30 years ago. A recent impact study identified a range of benefits for erasmus students, particularly around employability skills and the levels of employment. Universities in Scotland are highly desirable destinations for erasmus-plus students from the rest of the EU. In 2014, the universities of Edinburgh and Glasgow were the top two universities in the whole of the UK for the number of erasmus-plus students, but retaining the freedom of movement is a critical requirement for the participation in erasmus-plus. Freedom of movement is not only important to students, but it also supports researchers' collaborations and careers. Scotland has always looked beyond its own borders to the rest of the UK, to Europe and beyond. By their very nature, science and research are international endeavours and have no respect for borders. Our universities and research institutions in Scotland are active and valued partners in a large number of research collaborations, with many underpinned by EU funding. I want to ensure that that continues. Research collaboration is strongly linked to that second broad area that I wish to touch on, which is EU funding. EU funding benefits Scotland significantly, supporting jobs, delivering infrastructure, sustaining rural communities, providing valuable support for the farming and industrial industries, businesses and, most relevant to this afternoon's debate, of course, universities and colleges. Over the past three decades, EU funding has become intertwined with the fabric of overall funding for education and employability. European funding has helped to deliver high quality college courses that benefit students, the society and our economy. Funding has also significantly contributed to the modernisation of our college estates to ensure that we have the state-of-the-art facilities learners' need. The Scottish Funding Council has estimated that, in academic year 1516 alone, £11.6 million of European funding was made available to the college sector, supporting upskilling, the development of young people's employability and student support. Together with the funding from the Scottish Funding Council, it is estimated to support around 4,200 full-time equivalent college places. The potential loss of EU funding in the future would deal a serious blow to the levels of activity that colleges can deliver. EU funds act also as an enabler of international collaboration to drive up the quality of our research and to encourage innovation. Horizon 2020 is the EU's main programme for funding research and innovation projects. That programme was launched in 2014. Universities are highly successful in securing funding from Horizon 2020, attracting €185 million up to July this year. Horizon 2020 has also been a major source of funding for our research institutes, too. They have been awarded an additional €8 million up until the same date. I welcome Commissioner Modesty's confirmation that the UK remains fully eligible for Horizon 2020 funding and that projects will continue to be funded based on their merit and not on their nationality. However, I am concerned to hear anecdotal evidence suggesting that the outcome of the EU referendum may already be having an impact on research collaborations. Indeed, within weeks of the referendum, Professor Sirian Diamond gave evidence to a House of Commons committee. He said that some researchers involved in European partnerships have already received word from their partners. They think that it is better that the University of Aberdeen does not take the lead in the future. In the weeks following the referendum, I took action to agree a joint statement with Universities Scotland. Our published statement sets out our commitment to work together, using our collective influence in Brussels and elsewhere, to ensure that it is well understood that universities in Scotland remain committed to collaborating with our European partners and to attracting the best international talent. I welcome the UK Government's guarantee on European funding, including Horizon 2020, as far as it goes. The guarantee fails to take account of the impact of the uncertainty on potential collaborations that Professor Sirian Diamond has highlighted. It does not take account of the longer-term funding and other benefits that we otherwise would have received as continuing membership of the EU, for example, through future work programmes. I firmly believe that the best way to guarantee European funding is by maintaining our relationship with the EU. I wish to touch very briefly on a third and final issue, our potential loss of influence in Europe. The challenges of having to comply with rules and regulations developed in Europe without a seat at the table are very well documented. I believe that the same is true for the development of future funding programmes, policy direction in research and innovation. Should we leave the EU, Scotland would have no role in influencing or shaping those European priorities. Of course, there are some countries outwith the EU who benefit from EU funding, but they have no way of directly influencing EU priorities. Over the past decade, only 7 per cent of research money allocated by the EU and European Research Council has gone to non-member states. Presiding Officer, I am deeply concerned about the risk that the First Minister has referred to about a lost decade of uncertainty and turmoil. Scotland is and always has been an outward-looking nation. One of the key features of the Scottish Enlightenment was its openness, its commitment to share, to spread and challenge ideas and norms. At a time when we find ourselves in such uncharted territory, it is good to remember those principles in thinking about how we chart a course for Scotland's future relationship with the EU. We are at the start of that process, but I strongly believe that we must work creatively, positively and constructively, feeding into the negotiations to agree a way forward and to shape a future that reflects in respects the interests of our existing and our future staff and students. In that spirit, I would urge all members to support the motion in my name. I now call on Liz Smith to speak to and move amendment 1792.1. Around eight minutes, please, Ms Smith. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and can I move the amendment in my name? I will be very clear at the start of my speech that both further and higher education institutions in Scotland and indeed in the UK are world-class, both in terms of the quality of their teaching and their research and their efficiency. Let me also be very clear that being part of the European Union has played a very major part in that, and I am sure that other colleagues will provide lots of the evidence. I am being no doubt that what has made our colleges and universities great, especially in the latter case throughout many centuries, is their outward-looking approach. They have been pioneers in so many respects because they have been at the cutting edge of intellectual thought, invention and innovation, and in modern times in knowledge exchange, which is now obviously so much a part of the important things that they do. As we ponder the effects of Brexit, we should be in no doubt about the extent of the EU funding that has supported those projects, but neither should we be in any doubt about the adaptability that institutions have shown throughout their development, their ability to meet what seem like relentless challenges head-on and their ability to attract new streams of funding. They will need all that imagination and creativity like never before, and they will also need the resilience as this is not going to be an easy time. Let me set out, however, some things that I think are essential if the Brexit process is to be made more smooth. Let me speak first about some interesting things at both John Kemp, the interim chair of the Scottish Funding Council and Professor Andrea Nolan, if the University of Scotland said when they were at the Education and Skills Committee just three weeks ago. They said that, while definitive evidence is only in the process of being compiled, there are already cases where the Scottish or UK lead in a research project is being downgraded from that position because there is now uncertainty about the financial sustainability of the project if some of that EU funding is lost. Indeed, I note that the vice-chancellor of Sheffield-Hallam University said that he thought that four out of 12 current projects were now under threat. If that tendency grows or is not replaced by other funds, then clearly there could be detrimental effects. Research money is not just the odd investment here and there. It is sizable and it is very significant in terms of what can and cannot be achieved by a university and its collaborative partners. In this respect, the UK Higher Education Research Bill is crucial and I thank the chairman of the Education and Skills Committee for being prepared to bring some of the evidence about the committee. The message must be there that if we are to leave the EU, it does not mean that we will leave Europe or, I hope, become any less European in our educational ambitions. Happily, there has been extensive growth in the number of collaborative projects with nations out with the EU, most especially across nations like China, India, Canada, Australia and America. Those collaborative experiences must be worked on like never before and, in doing so, we must make sure that we are as attractive as possible to students and staff from these nations. What will help? Well, firstly, the message that Government sends out and that includes the Westminster Government's approach to immigration. This chamber knows that, prior to Brexit, I had disagreements with my Westminster colleagues about the post-study work visa issue and whilst I fully understand the practical failures within the previous system, which opened up too many loopholes in the immigration system, I firmly believe that a new post-study work visa can work and work well very much to the advantage of Scottish institutions and our economy, because it simply cannot be right that when we have some of the best brains of foreign nationals helping us with cutting-edge research to which is attached millions of pounds of investment, that halfway through a project, they find themselves that they must go home. If the University of Bath of Imperial College London and Southern Cambridge can be permitted to run a pilot PSWV, so can the universities in Scotland. I remain hopeful that we will get somewhere on this and I was pleased to hear the consultation process at the Conservative Party conference. Yes, of course. John Swinney. I wonder if Liz Smith would care to reflect also on something else that came from the Conservative conference today, which was the Prime Minister's remark that clinicians in our national health service would be from other countries. We were welcome to stay in this country until such time as we have grown our own replacements for them. Does she not accept that that is a terribly bad signal to issue to clinicians who will be part of the self-same research process that she has commended in which I value enormously? Does that not cause enormous uncertainty for the global decisions that were made by clinicians about where they happened to choose to locate to advance their specialisms? Liz Smith, I can allow you some extra time for that intervention. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I agree up to a point with the cabinet secretary that we do need certainty and we do need the message to be absolutely correct, but what I think is important too is that we give the full clarity about how we ensure that the best brains, whether they be domestic or foreign nationals, can not only be part of the institutions in this country in which we value so highly, but can also be part of that economic future. The Prime Minister said in her Maher interview on Sunday and it has been repeated twice in the speeches at conference that there is a real determination to make sure that the two match up. I would suggest to the SNP that there is some light at the end of the tunnel about the consultation process, which would be very clear about this that we did not have before today, so I think that things are moving in the right direction. I also believe very firmly that when it comes to the funding streams, which are so crucial and attached to higher education and to college education, there is an opportunity for us to reset some of the issues. Perhaps in Mr Russell's case there is a bit of a silver lining in all this because I do remember at an education question time in this Parliament six years ago, when my late colleague David McLeachie asked the then Cabinet Secretary how he would resolve the issue of the inherent unfairness of the Scottish Government paying the fees of EU students when those rest of the UK and international students studying the exact same courses had to pay fees themselves. Mr Russell said then and he said several times thereafter that he was working on ways to get round the problem. What Mr Russell should have said was that there was no way round that problem because of EU law, but now, with Brexit, that problem of that nature will be removed. However, what will not be removed are the issues about funding for EU students. Will they be liable for fees in the same way as the rest of the UK and international students, assuming that the SNP clings to its policy of allowing Scottish domiciles students to go free? What arithmetic is the SNP doing to assess whether the payment of fees by EU students in the future will lead possibly to a fall in demand for the places? If it does, by how much? There is an awful lot of arithmetic that has to be done there to ensure that we get the background. Why the Westminster Government has responsibilities so too does the Scottish Government because, as Ross Greer pointed out to the minister, it is very important that that certainty can be given to students who are not just in the courses just now but who are applying to it for the near future. That was a point that was put very strongly at the education committee, and that is the Scottish Government's responsibility for that. Let's be very clear, as I finish, Deputy Presiding Officer, that when the Scottish Government continues to lambast the Westminster Government for its actions, the Scottish Government is responsible for higher education in Scotland and for its funding. Brexit might not be what FE and HE wanted, but it provides the Scottish Government with a way out to realign its funding policy and to build a new one based on what we would see greater fairness. The mantra that the SNP consistently uses, which is built into the rocks in the sun at Heriot-Watt University, to claim that higher education is based on the ability to learn and not on the ability to pay, might work well for a Scottish domiciled student, but it has never really been true for the rest of the UK or the international student. Mr Russell knows more than most about what needs to happen in higher education so as to bring in additional income so that our institutions remain wholly competitive on the international stage, not just the European stage. If he really wants to do something about that, I think that we need to hear what it is. We know from every briefing which the colleges and universities have given us that this Brexit problem is serious, but on this side of the chamber we have faith that the challenge can be met head-on and with the same resourcefulness and pioneering spirit for which our institutions are world-renowned and with good-quality negotiations between the Scottish Government and the Westminster Government. I now call Ian Gray. Up to seven minutes, please. Thank you, Presiding Officer. We recently celebrated the news that five of our universities continue to be rated in the top 200 in the whole world, an astonishing achievement for a country our size. Only last week in this Parliament, Scotland's colleges showcased their remarkable innovation and excellence across the broadest range of skills and technology imaginable. Our universities support the learning of over 230,000 under- and postgraduate students, and they contribute an annual economic impact of over £7 billion gross value added. As a driver of the economy, they come behind only the financial services and energy sectors. Nor should we forget that colleges, as the cabinet secretary, I think, did rather forget. In spite of swinging cuts, they continue to deliver 20 per cent of higher education and contribute £6 to the economy for every £1 invested. If we are to prosper in the future, this must only increase. For our future lies in high-tech, highly skilled jobs and industries driven by training, research and innovation from our universities and colleges and underpinned by knowledge and new thinking. In a globalised world, there is no other path we can take. Warying, the situation in which we find ourselves, Brexit poses nothing but difficulties, challenges, uncertainty and potential pitfalls for higher and further education. That is why we will oppose the Tory amendment tonight. It is a Pollyanna formulation that Brexit brings opportunities as well as challenges, attempts simply to allide the responsibility for unnecessary risk that they have created for our universities and colleges through their Brexit fiasco. For today's debate, we have seen briefings from universities collectively and individually, from Colleges Scotland, from the NUS, from the Royal Society, from the Institute of Physics. Not one has a good word to say about Brexit. Not one. They are concerned, they are worried, they are uncertain and the Tories rather hopeful claims of opportunity have completely passed them by. First, there is the issue of students. Thirteen and a half thousand non-UK EU students, almost 9 per cent of undergraduates in our universities, not only enriching our university's student body, but currently able to stay on and work here when they qualify, helping us to meet that demand for the highest of skills and the most imaginative of innovation. The Scottish Government has been mentioned at least being able to provide those students already here with the assurance that their fees will be met for the duration of their course. As has also been noted, no such assurance has been given for next year's entrance now applying. Universities have had to publish prospectoses and seek students while unable to tell them if their fees will be paid. I know that the situation is not of the Scottish Government's making and I acknowledge that, as the cabinet secretary said, she reached out very quickly to the higher education sector. I know that to be true. However, in the end, this really isn't good enough. Universities have been left in an impossible position. Application closing dates are imminent or even passed in some cases. The Government must decide and decide soon. Then we have university and college staff. Academia is one of the sectors that has relished free movement of people going, as it does, with the grain of centuries of intellectual exchange. 16 per cent of university staff from the EU and more than four and a half thousand people who now face uncertainty about their long-term future need assurances now from the UK Government. Not just for the next few months or a couple of years, otherwise they will consider leaving. It is not just the formality of their immigration status that matters here. It is their sense of being valued and wanted and that has been badly shaken. Then there is research. Almost £90 million of research funding in 2013-14. 13 per cent of Scottish universities total funding from European Union sources. Yes, we know that the Prime Minister has given assurances that research funding will not suffer, but there is no detail or frankly in the sector much confidence. It is not just in the universities themselves. Companies like Sunamp in my constituency, world-leading research and development in renewable heat, driven by innovative chemistry from the University of Edinburgh and looking to Horizon 2020 for next stage development. As the cabinet secretary said, £165 million of Horizon 2020 already won in Scotland, but what will replace that in the future? Even if those funds are underwritten in the short term, in the long term, how do we replace access to an £80 billion Euro fund to support research? Once again, this is about people, not just money, as Liz Smith illustrated. We already hear of research collaborations thinking twice about UK partners, certainly as project leaders, if not as participants, because they are unsure now of our dependability and commitment to partnership. All that is true of the college sector too. Three and a half thousand student places dependant on European social fund funding alone, £13 million per year, a significant contribution to the sector. While it is true that fewer EU citizens come to Scotland specifically to study in our colleges, a matter of hundreds rather than thousands, it is also true that thousands of our students in colleges are EU citizens already living here and choosing to access further education to pursue their careers. They are now unsure how long they will be able to do that, what their status will be or whether, again, they are indeed welcome. I want to close by mentioning in an EU programme that the cabinet secretary rightly mentioned. That is Erasmus, the European exchange programme. I hope that we can maintain Scotland's place in Erasmus because it epitomises the internationalism that has underpinned our universities and colleges for centuries. It reminds me of the example of John Mayer from North Berwick in my constituency, schooled at Haddington grammar in my own hometown, but a fellow student too of Erasmus himself at college in France, the College de Montague, graduating later in Navarre in Spain before teaching at the Sorbonne and then returning to Scotland as principal of Glasgow University and moving later to St Andrew's 2. He was the originator of the idea of union between Scotland and England and the fundamental principles which underlie human rights law. Mer is an example that epitomises the internationalism of Scottish education, a historic strength that predated the European Union, but sat so well with it. Come to a close, please. We must now find ways to ensure that it survives the threat of Brexit. We now move to the open debate. Speeches have up to six minutes, please. I call first of all Stuart McMillan to be followed by Jeremy Balfour. Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. Scotland did not vote to leave the EU. We voted to remain. Scotland continually punches above its weight in research, ensuring access to competitive research funding. Scotland is a country that needs to grow its population to help to address the skills gaps and deal with an aging population. That is why free movement of people is so crucial. All of that is now at risk, and it will be the people who pay the price of that in real life if jobs, investment and education suffer as a result. In July, the joint statement from the Scottish Government and University of Scotland reassured EU students in Scotland that they will continue to benefit from free tuition and associated support for the duration of their course. That is something that I very much welcome. That sends a clear message that EU students are welcome in Scotland and that their contribution is valued. We welcome all international students who choose to study at Scottish Higher Education Institutions. The number of EU international students at Scottish Higher Education Institutions is a testament to the world-class university sector that we have with five universities in the top 200 in the world. I am sitting off, Scotland is home to nearly 13,500 EU undergraduate students, nearly 5,400 postgraduate students as well as 4,600 EU staff working in our higher education institutions. In anybody's language, that is a valuable economic, social and educational learning contribution to Scotland. It is good for Scotland and indeed for the wider UK, for international students to be here and then go back to their country and become leaders and remember fondly of their time here in Scotland. Skillow shortages are a particular issue for Scotland with more jobs here being hard to fill because of those shortages than in any other part of the UK. The report by the UK Commission for Employment and Skills found that in 2014, 25 per cent of all the job vacancies in Scotland were hard to fill because of a shortage and available skills, and that was up from 15 per cent in 2011. The Scottish Government has raised concerns that the increase in skill shortages has occurred in the period following the closure of the post-study work visa, something that has been touched upon already in this debate. The Scottish Government has also consistently argued that improved post-study work routes would be beneficial to Scotland's economic growth. The reintroduction of a post-study work visa, which would allow international students to remain in Scotland and contribute to the economy for a defined period on completion of the studies, is crucial for Scotland's future prosperity. Therefore, with the UK Government reintroducing the scheme for the south-east of England at the expense of elsewhere across the UK flies in the face of a one-nation position as we are continually hearing from the London Government. I want to touch upon the Erasmus scheme, something that Ian Gray mentioned a few moments ago. I have already put in record my personal involvement of studying in EU via the then Socrates Erasmus scheme as well as receiving funding via the European Social Fund to allow me to study from a master's qualification. The College of Scotland briefing for today was absolutely correct when they stated that the opportunity for student exchange in Europe enriches their learning experience, enhances employability and promotes greater understanding and respect of different people and cultures. I have to say that the social side of things was not that bad either. I think that back in my time, I was studying in France, Germany and Sweden with great fondness in how my life was enriched by having those opportunities. However, without EU funding, I could not have went. My family went flush with cash and my parents always helped my sister and myself, but there was no way that they could have paid the extra expense to allow me to go and study abroad. I am delighted that Scotland has 1,600 students going to study in EU countries via the Erasmus scheme, but my disappointment is that it is only 1,600. I could not wait to sign up to get the chance to go and study elsewhere because I knew the opportunities and who is the beneficial for me. However, now the Brexit vote has taken place and we heard at the weekend that article 50 will be triggered by the end of March next year. What is that impact going to be upon Scottish school students who are thinking about studying at any EU institution, but they cannot be guaranteed the funding to actually go? The easier response to this threat will be that the Scottish Government should fill that gap. However, that is not just a Scottish issue, but it is a UK-wide problem. Therefore, the UK Government, after creating the problem in the first place, needlessly, needs to guarantee that school students across the UK who wish to study a language and who want to have that opportunity to go abroad should still have that opportunity. I was a bit disappointed today, to hear about the comments from Amber Rudd quoting what she was saying, tougher rules for lower quality courses. As I said a few moments ago, when someone goes to study abroad it is not just about education, it is about the social, the cultural and also the economically beneficial effects of that opportunity. I do genuinely find Amber Rudd's comments to be offensive and narrow minded to say the least. Despite the misconceptions of some, not every Scot has grown up in a tenement, but equally not every Scot has grown up in a leafy suburb. Some Scots do want to study languages and they do want to have that life experience of going to study in a different country. Surely Brexit shouldn't close off this opportunity and aspiration. This far, this is what appears to be on the horizon thanks to the UK Government. I grew up in Port Glasgow. My family, my friends and my parents were always encouraging me to have a better life and to look for better opportunities than they actually had. This is what parents do. They know that when I picked the languages at school this was to open up those different opportunities for the years ahead. I want to do likewise for my children but also for every child in my constituency and across Scotland. The uncertainty caused by the UK Government delaying decisions could lead to the financial exposure of many millions of pounds if that is not addressed. It puts the significant investment and jobs at risk revealing the reality of Brexit. Finally, the continuation of as close a relationship as possible with the EU and for those of us in these seats means a continued membership of networks such as Erasmus and agreements such as freedom of movement and the single market. This is crucial for Scotland's economy going forward. Thank you very much. Can I remind members that as far as I am concerned in conclusion and finally mean the same thing? Have Jeremy Balfour please to be followed by Gillian Martin. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I think that we can all agree that Scotland has one of the very best higher education sectors in the world. There is a tremendous achievement and one in which Scotland should be very proud of. I have heard from the minister and others the Times Higher recently published the 2017 world university rankings. Five Scottish universities featured in the top 200 and another seven universities featured in the list which represents the best 5% of universities in the world. The UK is second only to the USA for the number of institutions in the world's best 800. Europe has been and always will be a very important partner for the higher education sector in Scotland. Scotland's higher education sector is over 13,000 students of EU dormancyle undergraduate level accounting for 8.9% of undergraduate degree students. Another 5,390 EU students study at postgraduate level in all Scottish universities paying fees to do so. EU graduates can stay and work in Scotland under the current arrangements. By doing so we meet demand for high skills and contribute to the economy by spending around £156 million of campus. Having a diverse student community made up of different nationals both European and from other countries adds flavour to the student experience and benefits those from this country and the learning environment in general. Scottish universities employ around 4,600 staff who are also EU nationals across a range of academic and professional roles. Of course the UK contributes more overall to the EU budget than it receives. However, the UK is one of the largest recipients of research funding in the EU. Brexit does present a significant change and challenge for higher education but alongside these challenges there comes new opportunities as well. It is slightly depressing to sit here week by week hearing from the SNP Government and Benches on whether there will be more doom and more gloom without any positivity. I think that they should maybe try to learn a new lesson so I had to put on. Recently stated by Nick Hillman of the Higher Education Policy Institutes universities are international institutes of international community of scholars and staff that predates the EU and will outlive our membership of the EU. Universities recognise the operate in a global so. I am very clear that international collaboration is something that universities do not need the EU for but they are already doing it. What is the upside to universities and colleges of leaving the EU? Jeremy Balfour. Bear with me and we will get there in a moment. That is why as mentioned by Liz Smith even if we leave the EU it does not mean that we leave Europe or become even less European in our ambitions. Universities want to maintain the closest possible relationship with our European neighbours and can you continue to see talent across the political boundaries? Of course we have heard already about different non-EU nations that have research. Switzerland, Norway take part in the horizon 2020 despite not being part of the European Union. A total of 13 associated countries contribute to framework programme budgets in production of a gross domestic product which allows them to take part in research apply for horizon 2020 projects with the same status as those of EU states. So it is possible for non-EU countries across the world, across the country to contribute based on their GDP. Clearly the UK will have to negotiate a new deal in order to do this but there is precedent in this area and it can happen. Again we have heard about the Rasmus programme from different people already but countries including Norway take part in this as do Turkey, Iceland Lithuania and Macedonia. Again you do not need EU membership to be part of this scheme and there is also surely an opportunity to forge a relationship with non-EU nations. Scottish universities have gone abroad to other parts of the world Harriet Walk University here in Malawians have campuses in Dubai and Malaysia and again there are opportunities to develop further places like that in other parts of the world. The Prime Minister has said that she wants the SNP Government to be fully engaged in brexit negotiations and we need to ensure that Scotland and the UK continue to do this and fully participate in future discussions about EU research programmes. Alice The Sim of University of Scotland spoke of our universities as part of a cross-border ecosystem on this issue we cannot work in isolation but must collaborate with a whole of the UK. In conclusion, brexit is going to result in considerable change. The UK Government and higher education sector must work closely together through brexit negotiations to ensure that the UK remains one of the world leaders in education. I firmly believe that our institutions have the ability to achieve this and to mend Scotland's position within the UK as one of the greatest universities nations in the world and I'm happy to support my colleagues amendment today. Gillian Martin to be followed by Daniel Johnson For once I'm going to stand up and not speak about colleges I think everyone expects me to speak about colleges all the time because I've worked there but I just want to mention what's been going on. Just come up on my phone, there's been a photograph of my former student Yakub Sarkovsky being taught by Przemek Vasilewski who was one of my former students who's now teaching at North East Scotland College and they're very much in my mind as this debate is going on. I think it's important to get test to me from those most affected when we discuss the potential impact of brexit. Recently I got an email from Sam who's a PhD research student who runs a lab at Aberdeen University who's works on looking at how inflammation and metabolism are linked and how we can treat diseases like type 2 diabetes and cancer. So I'm probably going to do something quite unusual but I'm just going to use my time if that's okay just to read out her email and use my time to give her a voice. This is what Sam wrote to me. The EU is critical to the medical sciences in Scotland. I can't even begin to express how important our EU membership is. Personally, my lab is partially funded by EU money from several EU grants and initiatives. We have some of the best research universities in the world for biomedical research, working on antibiotic resistance, stroke, heart disease, dementia and cancer. One example of work being funded by the EU at my university is the development of the next generation of MRI scanners that will allow doctors to get more diagnostic information from people's scans for conditions like dementia, cancer and arthritis. Giving better medical information but also more detailed research information that can help scientists to develop new treatments. Collaboration internationally is one of the biggest parts of science now. A move towards large collaborations, the sharing of data and specialist skills across many institutes has brought a revolution in quality of research. From 1981 to 2014, the number of science papers published with just a UK address dropped from 84 per cent to 48 per cent, highlighting the amount of research done through international collaboration. The UK most certainly punches above its weight in international research and has the highest proportion of the world's most highly-cited scientific research, placing it above the USA. EU funding and collaboration is at the heart of that success. The contribution to that figure from Scottish universities is disproportionate to our small population size. Scotland is a leader in university research and a wide range of disciplines. The quality of work conducted in this country is one of the reasons I chose to not go abroad to study from my PhD. EU funding and collaboration is only part of it, though. The number of talented people that come to study here at doctoral level is incredible. In 2014 to 2015, there were 14,280 EU students studying for a full-time research qualification. Freedom of movement across the EU is critically important in allowing us to attract the best research students and the best staff from across the EU to Scotland. More importantly, it allows us to retain them. Abolition of the post-study work visa has made it incredibly difficult for universities to retain international research students. As students are now required to leave following completion of a PhD rather than being encouraged to stay and further their research. I worry about how the Home Office will allocate the work permits that Theresa May is now talking about. In the biomedical sciences, most jobs available are not on the Home Office's required list and, therefore, they are subjected to full visa conditions, including earning requirements. Contrary to popular belief, research jobs are not well paid. The average starting salary for a researcher in biomedical sciences holding a PhD is £24,000 before tax, normally rising to around £30,000 after 10 years of experience. Will the loss of EU membership subject the staff to the tier 2 visa scheme with a threshold of £35,000 in earnings as a requirement for the indefinite leave to remain? We will lose so many great people doing important work and progressing in the industry from doctoral researcher into independent researchers and the establishment of new labs and new expertise within the country, leading to who knows what scientific breakthroughs. More generally, the morale is unbelievably low. Friends I have who work in research, who have come here to work, had children and are settled here and are now unsure if they will be able to stay. Those fears at present make it very hard for us to bring and retain talent within the scientific industry as people begin to seriously consider leaving the UK. That applies to me too. I complete my PhD in September 2017 and I am now entering the phase of my career where I have to make choices about where I will go post-graduation. Competition for post-doctoral roles and research are already highly competitive and loss of funding and the breakdown of collaborations that Brexit may bring make me hesitant to rely on staying in Scotland for my career. This is my home. I have lived here all my life and I deeply value the investment that the Scottish Government made in allowing me to attend university for free and then further supporting my PhD through both university and NHS Scotland research funding. I want to return that investment. My dream is that one day I will be a professor at Scottish University teaching, researching and helping further our knowledge and passing on to the next generation. Without EU funding, support and collaboration I feel that this will be impossible and I will be forced to look abroad to get the most out of my career regards Sam. Sam needs answers. Sam's colleagues need answers. Sam's university needs answers. Will funding be replaced? Will that collaboration be possible? Will talented EU citizens still be able to study and work in our universities? They need to know now not in two years' time. Donald Johnson to be followed by Graham Dey. One of the things I've enjoyed most since becoming an MSP is the amazing visits that you get to go on. It's a huge pleasure and privilege for me to have the King's buildings, the home of science and engineering for Edinburgh University, right in the heart of Edinburgh Southern. In fact, I have to say that I'm such a self-confessed geek over the last two weeks. I've not just done one visit to the King's buildings but I've done two. The reason is that there is just such amazing work going on there. Let me describe two projects that are happening there at the moment. One is the Wi-Fi project, which is a Wi-Fi replacement technology using ordinary LED lamps connected to a router allowing you to have the equivalent of Wi-Fi but through light but it's 20 times faster than using cables. Because it's cable free the applications for getting broadband into remote areas are incredibly promising and exciting. Likewise, I got to see the genome foundry, which is essentially a robotic automated genetics lab where robots are able to take genetic sequencing and engineering round the clock so while researchers are sleeping their work is carrying on in the lab. What struck me was the work that is innovative it's creating our future but above all else it's highly international. One of those teams wasn't just one or two people from other countries but it was full of people working from all over the world. Universities are important to Scotland. We have a legacy of groundbreaking discoveries but they also shape our future and as we know the spin-outs from Scottish universities are highly successful they are very much a real part in building our future industries. Universities are international because knowledge as Shirley-Anne Somerville pointed out and it's clear because collaboration builds progress and the broader that collaboration the stronger the academic base you had but I have to challenge Jeremy Balfour's comments in this debate today because while I agree and I understand that there are various programs that we can renegotiate our positioning and get access to that somehow trying to double think our way into describing those things as benefits are upside to Brexit is perverse because these are things that we can do already we're already part of and the renegotiation is an additional cost that we do not need. Liz Smith Notwithstanding that there are very considerable downsides which I think we on this side of the chamber certainly admitted to, there are upsides and there's a lot that we can be doing particularly in terms of some of the international projects for which some Scottish universities have been highly successful and they are well beyond the boundaries of the EU. Daniel Johnson I thank Liz Smith for the intervention but I'm yet to hear what any of these upsides actually are all I've heard is about renegotiating our way back into programs we already have or describing international collaboration we're already doing so where's the upside I ask you I'm yet to hear it because when you look at the numbers it's very clear Brexit is providing a very real and clear issue for our universities at Edinburgh University alone that research funding comes for you that's worth £23 million indeed Edinburgh University receives a quarter of the Scottish total it has 91 horizon 2020 projects worth 77.8 million euros and 30 per cent of its research is co-authored with other EU institutions and a number of speakers have mentioned the issue while be a anecdotal that our research is being asked not to take a lead in research projects and that's not an issue of having their name at the top of the paper so its academic work is built on reputation and if it's not Edinburgh University that's getting the credit for its ground-baking work whether it's in Wi-Fi technologies or genetics it will be other institutions which get that credit and like to build their reputation but it's not just about funding because universities are about people but the fundamental process of our universities about taking the knowledge our academics possess and passing it on to our students and when you have 14 per cent of students at Edinburgh University coming from other parts of the EU you can see the seriousness of that problem and indeed a third of those students are doing STEM subjects which we know is so important to our economy but that problem is even more stark when you look at staff almost two and a half thousand staff at Edinburgh University coming from the EU and in academic staff that rises to 25 per cent and we have a context where we are already have uncertainty and insecurity because the visa system the UK government has imposed and that briefly thank you Mr Johnson for taking in the intervention. Can I just clarify are the Labour Party in favour of Brexit or not? Are you campaigning now not for Brexit? We campaigned against Brexit continued to take the view let me let me finish we continued to take the view that those are negative consequences but we want to make the most of it and I think it's important that we understand the realities of the negative consequences that Brexit poses and the reality is this is again anecdotally I'm told that staff and students coming to Edinburgh are being advised not to fly through Heathrow because the immigration controls there are such a nightmare to get through the reality of the context that we are putting our universities through so we need some clarity there has been a total lack of vision or a plan from the UK government through the summer we heard that it was part of Theresa May's cunning plan to not say too much but I'm sorry silence is not a strategy it's not shrewd, it's not tactic it's a dereliction of duty we need to know certain key things we need to know basics we need to know whether or not we need to continue to be able to live and work in this country and we don't know that we need to understand what is the vision for research in this country how will our research bodies work with EU and I have to say the Scottish government needs to provide clarity too we need clarity for students applying this year the closing dates of which are already on us 8.9 per cent of students come from the EU but we also need to investigate the possibility for bilateral relationships with EU research funding programmes and that work needs to carry out now if we are to mitigate the undoubted damaging consequences of Brexit thank you Graham Deyde before about Alexander Stewart Presiding Officer, these past few years have presented challenges for colleges as they adapted to the regional FE delivery models, the need to better align course delivery with future job opportunities and cope with funding reductions a few colleges have responded better to those challenges as Dundee and Angus college under the leadership of Grant Richie and his team boast the most successful record in attainment for young people up to the age of 18 its learners from the 10 per cent most deprived post codes achieve at 16 per cent of points higher than the Scottish average it has expanded the number of learners moving into advanced places at university year on year, it has doubled its activity with schools and is working more closely than ever before with Dundee and Abilte universities and it's won a string of national awards around sustainability learner engagement and student enterprise it was the only Scottish finalist at the times educational supplement college of the year award and was named the north-east of Scotland employer of the year at the Cherries HR awards beating off competition from major national companies so you would think Dundee and Angus college was looking to the future with justified and re-optimism but right now there's a cloud hanging over the college all of Scotland's colleges in the form of Brexit on the basis of exiting the EU the separate entities and then in its current guise Dundee and Angus college has benefitted from some £30 million in EU funding since 1998 annual income from EU sources based on 2015-16 will drop by £2 million following the EU exit in the words of the principal the loss of that funding will given the majority of it has been targeted attracting learners from disadvantaged areas and in supporting growth in SMEs and I quote have a profound impact on the college's service to the community Presiding Officer it's worth exploring just what in practice that funding drawn from a variety of sources delivers it has for example enabled the creation of a business incubator and enterprise facility a sustainable industries institute with state-of-the-art engineering facilities and an employability centre it has opened up reciprocal learning opportunities last year for example Dundee and Angus students had work placement opportunities in Sweden, Spain, Romania and Slovenia staff groups were in Finland, Spain and Sweden looking at teaching innovation all told 103 students and 38 staff took part in 14 such projects returning to take forward best practice ideas going from those engagements whilst groups in Finland, Spain and Sweden made a total of 7 different reciprocal visits to Seisai building upon the EU networking arrangements so valued by those involved in total Dundee and Angus College has established partnerships with 33 organisations in a wide range of EU countries and courtesy of additional ESF funding secured through a national application by the Scottish Funding Council and the back of the awarding of additional credits Dundee and Angus College during 2015-16 were able to offer an extra 450 students the opportunity to study mainly around growth in the future growth areas such as business and finance energy, life sciences digital and healthcare that EU funding has supported the delivery of around 20 courses to higher national standard across the college involving an estimated 10 teaching posts so little wonders concern on the Kingsway and Arborod campuses over what the future post Brexit hold because it isn't just about hard cash but the engagement opportunities that being part of the EU and those arrangements provide the Tory amendment claims that there will be new opportunities for both colleges and universities especially in developing closer international links with further and higher education institutions in non-EU nations perhaps so Presiding Officer why go through the unnecessary upheaval and how will exploration and delivery of these be funded essentially we are faced with tearing up all that has been established over recent years in terms of such collaboration across the EU and Presiding Officer the impact of Brexit goes beyond simply that for Dundee Angus and other Scottish colleges around 10 per cent of the student cohort there are EU nationals people who live in the communities I represent and who secured employment locally and the soft fruit, the retail and the care sectors for example faced with potentially requiring visas no paying of fees for them will those who might follow in the footsteps of these valued contributors to our society and our local economies simply choose to go elsewhere a survey of EU students by Hobsons found that 82 per cent would view the UK as a less attractive option for study if it voted to leave the EU again the Tory amendment talks of the resourcefulness and the creativity with which further and higher education institutions have always reacted to changing circumstances and they are adaptable institutions but why expose them to the risk the uncertainty and the pitfalls that Ian Gray touched upon being no doubt, as I have laid out in relation to the calls with a footprint in my constituency, the impact of Brexit looks like being severe for the sector no amount of deflection by the Tories can disguise that Presiding Officer, with every passing day since the UK voted to leave the EU the wisdom Scotland displayed in voting remain becomes ever more obvious with every passing day the need for Scotland to avoid having its ties cut becomes ever clearer Alexander Stewart, to be followed by Jenny Gilruth As has been mentioned several times throughout the debate those who work in the further and higher education sectors were overwhelmingly in favour of remaining within the European Union and I think that it is very important that we recognise the fact understand the concerns that they have and work together to address them there is no doubt that both sectors will face change and these challenges give opportunities but we must also grasp the opportunities that are there and ensure that we do all that we can in the new path that has been chosen by the United Kingdom take for example the Scottish Government's flagship tuition fee policy under myself, Scots and EU students part of that must now change and the response of the Scottish Government is to reset the funding policy for higher education one of which everyone knows has within its financial inequalities dependent upon the nationality of the students and the problematic camp Thank you Thank you for giving way The policy is based on domicile not on nationality it's very important to recognise that and I'm sure the member wouldn't want to misrepresent it to the chamber Mr Stewart I did indicate domicile nationality for the intervention moving on it might be the case that more Scots than ever are attending universities but it's also the fact that from the Scottish funding council that we are seeing that domicile Scots are now a declining percentage of the total number of students that are attending we also know that the commitments that were made regarding widening access and the commitments that are there to ensure that we have that taking place so I acknowledge the fact that that change will come The new status of EU students whatever they will be needs careful thought particularly on the grounds of income stream which is predominantly based on the Scottish Government and is no longer taking part I want to continue, thank you As my colleague Liz Smith has already pointed out there is the possibility that the introduction of a fee for EU students will reduce the number of applications from EU countries that in turn will necessitate some careful arithmetic arithmetic which the sector is keen to get as soon as possible and encourage Holyrood and Westminster to get work together to provide that. As universities in Scotland have said this arithmetic is very important especially when you're challenging and looking at strategic planning for the future there are of course more opportunities in Scotland's institutions than we move forward and that has been achieved in many of them as we look at some example Harriet Watt in the city of Edinburgh and the example of a university that has already developed campuses within Dubai and Malaysia As the UK builds upon a new free trade agreement with nations across the globe Scotland's universities can seize that opportunity to have that international exposure Thank you I'm going to hurry at what university tomorrow actually so while I'm there maybe I can explain to the principal and the other principals how they should adapt to what's already going on in China and the Far East where agencies for students are already being told don't go to Scotland or the UK it's closed you should go somewhere else how do we actually well it's happening you should go out and speak to the principals how do we deal with that I'm sorry Scotland is certainly not closed we know that and you know that Scotland's open for business you try to tell it occasionally but you should listen to your own rhetoric Scotland is open for business Scotland is raised by the universities has been their future participation in research and that's been discussed already this afternoon it's of course important that we look at all streams of money that will come into research between 2007 and 2013 the European Union research funding came through the programme 7 accounted for 3 per cent of the UK's total expenditure on research and development we must nevertheless look at and ensure that the universities are not worse off and that we do that in terms of their research, their development and the funding that they can achieve now we've talked about Horizon 2020 programme and I think that that does show a real opportunity now we also know from associated status and there are 13 countries that have associated status including the European Economic Area members of Norway Iceland, Turkey and indeed Israel as Alice The Sim from University Scotland has already said he quoted that closely involved with the programme are those and they have access so there's no different from being part of the European Union likewise participation in the Erasmus Plus scheme the opportunities that they have are quite immense it is also the opportunity that Norway and Iceland accept free movement of people but they also include other nations such as the former Macedonia and also Turkey while the Erasmus scheme will continue to provide what we're doing here in 2016-17 it's very important that we look forward to what can be achieved and what is being achieved as we progress in conclusion the institutions that make up the higher and further education sector in Scotland are world renowned for their teaching and their research this is a great extent as to the result of the openness their ability to attract the best and the brightest staff and the students from around the globe the vote on the 23rd of June of this year should not be seen as any rejection of that approach while we have no doubt heard that we're leaving the European Union we are not leaving Europe and we should continue to welcome those who have something to contribute to Scotland while also looking to the opportunities beyond the European Union to continue to have what we have going forward and I very much look forward to seeing that being achieved Presiding Officer Thank you Thank you, and I call Jenny Gilruth I should also let members know that Jenny will be the last speaker in the open debate and will move to closing speeches after that Thank you, Presiding Officer I'd like members to cast their minds back now 102 days ago to be precise to the day that Britain voted to take itself out of the European Union to take back control to seize the opportunity to be a sovereign nation once again the doom and gloom of the remain camp was palpable I do believe that there are risks and uncertainties about the economy I think that people's jobs would be at risk so said our new Prime Minister Theresa May If you don't know don't go, warned Ruth Davidson but to a lay public concern in the run up to the Brexit vote the UK Government helpfully published a reassuring document entitled the process for withdrawing from the European Union Indeed I'm sure we all share Scotland's serious concerns that it contained absolutely no reference to education whatsoever nothing about schools, nothing about colleges nothing about universities so Presiding Officer perhaps Brexit is a good thing for Scotland education is devolved after all we can take back control we can seize the opportunities that the Conservative Party have so kindly foisted upon Scotland Presiding Officer higher and further education make a difference in people's life chances in my constituency of Midfaith and Glenruthus 31 per cent of school leavers from the 2012-2013 cohort went on to further education more or less the same percentage of children live in poverty after housing costs are taken into account at the start of last year our unemployment rate was nearly double that of the national average so education matters to my constituents because education gives you currency it increases your earnings potential it opens doors colleges in Scotland have directly benefited from European funding via the developing Scotland's workforce fund and via the youth employment initiative primarily in total this academic year Scotland's colleges will benefit from 18.2 million pounds of European funding from these projects indeed approximately 250 million pounds of European funding has already been provided towards historic capital projects in the colleges sector and in our higher education institutions 23 per cent of research staff only staff rather are from the EU and this has previously been stated five of our universities are in the times higher education world university rankings Edinburgh, Glasgow, St Andrews, Dundee and Aberdeen indeed our universities receive almost 90 million pounds of research funding a year from EU sources alone Presiding Officer, I am sure that members across the chamber were delighted by the statement from the Scottish Government and University Scotland in July which gave reassurances to EU students that they would continue to benefit and support for the duration of their courses the message from the Scottish Government is therefore clear EU students are welcome in Scotland and their contribution is valued I, like colleagues across this chamber wrote to EU citizens in my constituency following the Brexit vote one replied in response when we heard the result of the EU referendum my Polish friends and I were worried and frightened of course I love Poland too but my life is here I am very happy here said I have lived in Scotland for 27 years and I have always felt welcome but at the time prior to the referendum I did for the very first time feel like a foreigner because of careless comments people made Presiding Officer, this is the reality of the Tory's Brexit vote EU citizens who are mothers, students and workers now feel unwelcome they feel that they don't belong Scotland is home to 173,000 EU nationals it's every single MSP's job to ensure that these people recognise how much we value and need their contribution in Scottish society your nationality shouldn't qualify you for employment that's what your qualifications are for and that's why higher and further education are pivotal to Scotland's future let's in a month after the vote our new Prime Minister met our First Minister I'm sure it was a cordial affair the Prime Minister gave the First Minister a commitment that the Scottish Government would be fully involved in the process of setting a UK position in advance of article 50 being triggered it was therefore interesting to note the tone flip this weekend there is no opt-out from Brexit and I will never allow divisive nationalists to undermine the precious union of our four nations of our United Kingdom so Presiding Officer the divisive nationalism which will drag the UK out of Europe is acceptable the divisive nationalism which led this country into a referendum on our EU membership on the watch of a party which Scotland did not vote for that's fine the divisive nationalism which yesterday saw the value of the pound dropped to a three-year low against the euro that's okay but the civic nationalism which my party stands for is dangerous that's ugly separatism that's parochial that's isolationist Scotland should know her place the sheer audacity of the Conservative party when it comes to Europe knows no bounce Presiding Officer Scotland didn't choose to be in this situation today's motion commits the Scottish Government to take action to stand up for Scotland's best interest to maintain our membership of the European market and access to free movement of labour to maintain the strong tradition of academic collaboration between European and Scottish higher education institutions to insist that the UK Government ensures that we have a role in decision making and Brexit negotiations going forward Presiding Officer I will end with the words of the former Prime Minister speaking in 2009 as then leader of the Opposition we need mutual respect and a politics which is about a discussion and a delivery rather than about confrontation and grievance but whether it's hard Brexit or soft Brexit the scrambled Brexit that Scotland is currently being served up by the Tories is simply not good enough thank you When I move to closing speeches I call Monica Lennon and you have a very generous six minutes very generous There have been many interesting points raised during the course of this debate by colleagues across the chamber what has been clear from most sides is that the aftermath of the EU referendum is uncharted territory particularly for the further and higher education sector here in Scotland I welcome the points which recognise the importance and benefits of the sector to Scotland and echo those sentiments it's for those reasons that clarity over the situation of the sector going forward after the EU referendum is so important first and foremost as has been raised many times during the course of the debate we must provide reassurance to the students and staff at our colleges and universities we have heard a lot of warmth and solidarity with the almost 13,500 students from the EU who currently study at undergrad level in our universities and the 5,390 students at postgraduate level they make up over 13% of postgraduate hot students and almost 17% of research students and as Daniel Johnson said a third of the students study the STEM subjects which are so vital to future jobs and economy of this country and as we know under current arrangements EU students can stay and work in Scotland after graduation so EU students make a huge contribution to universities and society and I agree with members across the chamber that we must make sure that this is something which is not damaged by the result of the EU referendum but in order to prevent any knock-on effect on the numbers of EU students universities and colleges require urgent clarity from the Scottish Government over the fee status of EU students applying for courses in 2017-18 we know students are already applying for courses which begin next year and institutions and applicants are currently being left in limbo over what the fee status for these students will be throughout the course of their studies Andrea Nolan of University Scotland told the education committee last month that universities require a response one way or another I welcome Shirley-Anne Somerville's opening remarks Shirley-Anne, as minister has acknowledged these concerns and I know that she will appreciate the urgency around that so we hope on this side of the chamber that the Scottish Government will soon be able to provide answers and a timescale on what the fee status of EU students will be for those beginning their studies in autumn 2017 certainly Stuart McMillan I thank Monica Lennon for taking the intervention but Monica Lennon agree with me in terms of that question that she just posed to the Scottish Government that clearly will be a financial implication therefore the UK Government should ensure that the Scottish Government has any additional funds that are required to ensure that guarantee Monica Lennon We would remain in EU that would have been making that funding commitment anyway but I'm heartened by the commitment from Mr Lennon to keep engaging with the university and the college sector and our students in that regard and in the same vein I hope that the Scottish Government will be able to provide clarity over the position of academic staff and researchers and hope that they too will be given assurances that they and their dependents have the right to live and work here There are 4,600 EU staff currently working across the 19 higher education institutions here in Scotland Researchers from EU countries make up 16 per cent of academic staff in our universities rising to almost 20 per cent in some of our institutions their contribution to our teaching and research excellence is vital to the statement from the UK national academies that they deserve to receive absolute clarity over their position in the coming years Similarly, outward opportunities for UK staff to collaborate and gain experience in other EU countries needs to be safeguarded I know there's agreement across the chamber that regardless of the EU referendum result it remains vital that EU countries know that Scotland's further and higher education remains open and the close relationship with our EU neighbours will remain in place Central to this is that reassurance from the Scottish and UK Government regarding the funding of research projects and student places and as we've heard from some speakers today the college sector in particular benefits immensely from EU structural funds which created 3,500 extra college places in 2014 through £13 million from ESF The impact of this funding for students in my region central Scotland and of course the rest of the country cannot be underestimated It's vital important that the UK and the Scottish Government provide assurances about the continuation of funding in the event of Brexit and that they, along with the Scottish funding council are pursuing all possible avenues to ensure that the college sector is not adversely affected Higher education institutions received £88.8 million of research funding from the EU in 2013-14 and that accounts for 13 per cent annual research funding so those figures are not insignificant and we all celebrate the Scottish universities are consistently punching above their weight in terms of EU funding Scotland receiving almost 20 per cent of the funding delivered through the horizon 2020 which is the EU's biggest research and innovation programme Our excellence in research is recognised and rewarded by EU funding which allows us work to flourish and continue In closing I would like to reiterate that I hope that the minister will keep in mind the importance of consulting students and young people on affected policy areas during the Brexit negotiation process particularly in areas such as Erasmus participation in research funding and I think we heard very well from Stuart McMillan about how his experience helped to broaden his horizons across Europe and he's turned out pretty well so we don't want other people to lose their hands We should keep in mind that it is young people particularly 16 and 17 year olds a student of the near future who will be most affected by any changes and implications of the EU referendum and how it's going to affect Scotland's further and higher education sector so I hope therefore that the minister and the Scottish Government will keep all of this in mind when taking forward any discussions on the process of Brexit and will make all necessary efforts to ensure that young people are engaged in this process Ross Thompson and equally generous 7 minutes Thank you, Presiding Officer Since the United Kingdom voted to leave the European Union on 23 June the response of the SNP Government has been to show nothing more than belligerence rather than diplomacy Rather than grasping the opportunity that Brexit presents the SNP are only working to frustrate the UK leaving the EU and are working to shackle Scotland to the EU's failing institutions working to blinkers away from the growing economies out with the EU right across the globe and are using the referendum to justify their agenda of independence at any cost and attempt to simply further their own interests rather than those of Scotland It's natural that any change will of course present a new set of challenges and my colleague Liz Smith very conscientiously articulated what those challenges are for both further and higher education institutions What will define this Scottish Government is whether or not they can rise to meet those challenges and maximise... I'm just getting started where there are not they can rise to meet those challenges and maximise Brexit opportunities for the benefit of Scottish further and higher education I recently met with Universities Scotland and the stark message coming from our institutions is that the current settlement around university funding is unsustainable with Scottish students being underfunded by 10 per cent Our current membership of the EU means we have to pay for the free tuition of EU students EU law requires that applicants from Scotland and the rest of the EU yes they'll give way I believe that Mr Thomson is the fourth speaker from the Tory benches to hint at the fact that EU students could cease to be funded by the Scottish Government Is that now the Conservative party position in this chamber? If you'd allowed me to finish I was actually going to clarify that in my speech that EU law requires applicants from Scotland and the rest of the EU are treated equally often with Scottish students missing out on funded places at our universities This costs over £80 million a year and is rising to have the new ability if this Parliament chooses to use it to charge EU students and use the money raised to fund bursaries and more places for Scots It's important that our institutions and wider Scotland start to have a proper and thought out debate about how exiting the EU can allow our institutions to raise additional revenue which can potentially fund bursaries and places for Scottish students There is a myth that university tuition is free However, we know that international students outwith the EU as well as English students pay thousands of pounds to study here Currently our universities charge international students fees of up to £14,000 Just for example if our institutions charged EU students the full international rate we could raise an excess of £220 million or if we were to charge EU students at the rest of the UK rate we could still be raising over £90 million Bear in mind that the cost of providing free tuition to EU students is around £87 million and this would be saved by not providing free tuition then potentially our universities could be better off by around £177 million If there was a course of action that the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament wanted to take Mr Shirley-Anne Somerville Grateful for the opportunity Can the member name one single higher or further education institution that actually thinks what he's espousing is a good idea I certainly haven't heard any What I have said is for this Parliament to debate if it's a good idea and University Scotland in my own meetings have said that we need to have a fundamental debate about this because there are new opportunities at Brexit that will present and it's up to the Scottish Government to bring forward their plans for Scottish students as well as provide the burst race to support those students from the most deprived communities to get into university Quite naturally our universities have raised concerns in relation to research funding and my colleague Liz Smith mentioned in her speech our institutions have shown tremendous adaptability in meeting numerous challenges and no doubt they will continue to do so Members should bear in mind that the vote on 23 June was to leave the structures of a political organisation it was not the vote to turn our backs to European neighbours it wasn't about leaving Europe we will continue to co-operate closely with our European neighbours and now have the opportunity to look beyond the EU to some of the most exciting and dynamic regions of the world our world leading universities therefore will continue to collaborate with other European institutions I'd like to make some progress institutions as well as institutions elsewhere in the world for example there's EU funded Ebola research programme which involves the universities of Oxford Sterling and the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine 11 EU universities and Swiss universities this is a clear example that countries outwith EU like Switzerland as well as Norway too have been able to collaborate outwith the formal political structures of the EU this week the this week the Chancellor of the Exchequer Philip Hammond was unequivocal and he stated that universities and researchers will have funds guaranteed for research bids made directly to the European Commission including bids to the EU's horizon 2020 programme and 69 billion pot for science and innovation and with the Treasury underwriting the funding awards even when projects continue post Brexit a move welcomed by universities UK for providing much needed stability for our universities during the transition period as the UK exits the EU as well as sending the important signal to European researchers that they can continue to collaborate with their UK colleagues as they have before currently the UK is a net contributor to the EU budget so even despite the funding and grants received by institutions from the EU it comes nowhere close to what we actually pay into the EU pot in the first place in fact even as a member of the EU funding of our institutions is simply not guaranteed as it is subject to the decisions of the EU and its structures by people not accessible or accountable to our institutions here in the UK in leaving the EU these decisions can be taken here in the UK by bodies accountable to us I want to quickly touch on comments made by Jeremy Balfour who acknowledged the challenges ahead and mentioned the Erasmus scheme which was also mentioned by Ian Gray and Stuart McMillan I bear in mind that yes Erasmus is co-ordinated by the EU but it is a project for the European continent involving countries such as Norway, Iceland, Turkey Macedonia and goodness me Lichtenstein so if they are involved there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that the UK won't opportunities to go abroad will exist for our students and the difference now is that these opportunities will now be extended beyond Europe but to the rest of the world Presiding Officer so far Scottish Government ministers have bemoaned the result and they have stoked the flames of uncertainty in pursuing their independence cause which we have learned transcends absolutely everything else Presiding Officer as I said at the beginning of my remarks change brings challenge Brexit brings challenge but this Scottish Government must remove its blankers in order to see the swath of new opportunities for our further and higher education institutions for which the Scottish Government are wholly responsible Mr Russell should bring forward a blueprint to this chamber demonstrating to us how he will seize the opportunities for our world-class institutions Presiding Officer now more than ever in Scotland must work together to secure the best possible deal for Scotland as we forge a new positive relationship with not just the EU but the rest of the world Minister Mike Russell if you want to speak up until 1728 or 1729 I certainly won't object Presiding Officer I shall of course do my best and I'm glad my colleagues Mr Sweeney is looking forward to this Can I at the outset declare an interest I was Professor of Scottish Culture and Governance at the University of Glasgow which I should note is one of the top 200 universities in the world I have as usual spent the afternoon listening to the Tory description of the sunny uplands that lie ahead of us when we have exited the EU Those sunny uplands are so exciting that whilst this was going on this afternoon the pounds sank to a 31-year low and just a few months ago the IMF downgraded UK GDP growth because of Brexit Those sunny uplands are a fiction of the imagination of Ross Thomson and having heard his imagination that worries me considerably Not at this moment let me make a little progress and I'll be happy to hear what you have to say Presiding Officer I want to address two things initially the present situation in higher education and further education in Scotland and second to the issue of research In May 2012 I led the Scottish delegation to the plenary of the Bolognau process which was held in the palace of the people in Bucharest as anorex in this chamber will know the world's second largest building There were 47 delegations present not just EU countries not just sovereign states The outer group was that larger group of nations inner group was a group of the European higher education area and the purpose of the Bolognau process is to ensure compatibility between higher education systems that students and academics to move from one place to another Scotland has one of the highest ratings within the Bolognau process it is seen as a nation with key advantages it is English speaking it has high quality institutions five in the top 200 many more in the top 1000 there are no fees for domestic students and good access for others but most importantly of all it is part of the EU so there is free movement for staff and for students so in these circumstances in the world of higher education in the international world of higher education membership of the EU is not a disadvantage it's an advantage it doesn't stop collaborations it actually enhances collaborations and in that regard therefore the Tory amendment is to put it very kindly fatally flawed perhaps I put it more bluntly it is completely and utterly wrong the EU does not remove a tiresome impediment coming out of the EU actually creates damage for higher education in Scotland and they are also happy to give way to the cabinet secretary for giving way he and I both wanted a different result and we've acknowledged in this debate that the colleges and universities wanted a different result is it not our duty and obligation to ensure that we make the best of that result and that we move forward on that and that there are opportunities even if we choose to perhaps in this debate to accentuate some of the challenges there are opportunities it is our obligation to work together to ensure that we expand on these First obligation any inquiry is to tell the truth I cannot see what these advantages are because there is presently work being done across the globe by Scottish universities I want to give four brief examples from my own experience I had the wonderful experience of hosting a dinner with Anton Muscatelli in Calcutta which welcomed old boys from Glasgow University from the 1930s who were studying there Scotland has had an international reach for generations but more recently I signed a memorandum of understanding in Putrajaya in Kuala Lumpur for Heriot-Watt University established a new university there a New Delhi and I attended a seminar in Vancouver on Scottish literature involving Aberdeen University none of those countries are part of the EU all of them are places where Scotland is working and I would think it would be hard to find a country in the world where Scottish universities do not have either memorandum of understanding or actual live links so there is nothing in membership of the EU that is holding back Scottish higher education but not being in the EU will damage Scottish higher education and the proof of that lies in research because we've heard about some of the details of research funding but there's a more insidious problem the UK is towards the bottom of the averages of spend on research 2.08 per cent across the EU nations in research percentage of GDP only 1.72 per cent in the UK and at the mercy of the purse strings of the UK we will do worse in research funding than we do now there is no doubt about that whatsoever and therefore the threat to research funding in Scotland comes from leaving the EU and every researcher will tell you the same so in every university this is a key problem and indeed of course it's the opposite of what we heard during the referendum where apparently staying in the UK is a threat to be that case now the reality of the situation we should acknowledge this reality in this chamber is that Scottish HE and FE are doing well, they're world quality they provide strong service to students they undertake world quality research and they attract key staff from across the globe and that is a big thing in higher education there are five universities in the top 200 have to compete globally for staff and staff often come with groups of students with them and postdoctoral students because they come to compete in this world and they won't do so if there's insecurity so Brexit unfortunately in reality and this is the reality gets in the way of success in higher and further education so how might we cope with it well here are four things that we need to consider the first of them is we must have free movement and indeed that is essential for participation in schemes like Erasmus there has to be free movement and unfortunately the Prime Minister appears to have ruled that out this very week so there is a threat we have to overcome there has to be participation in key projects and if you're going to participate in key projects you've got to pay into them so we have to make sure that we're part of key projects there have to be guarantees of continuity of funding not the flimsy guarantees we've had up until now but real guarantees and most of all, of course, absolutely I'm grateful again to the cabinet secretary's given way we acknowledge that within the guarantees that have to be provided what the Scottish Government's responsibilities are with the income stream that is coming from different categories of students absolutely but we would not expect I'm sure that we wouldn't see the Tories taking advantage of this situation to push their own agenda their own agenda of trying to impose fees on students which this government has resisted and will go on resisting I'm sure in higher and further education and the final thing if I may go to the fourth point after free movement participation and project and guarantees of funding is honesty and accuracy Ian Gray with approval but he described the Tory attitude as a polyanna attitude and that is what it is week after week we've heard this attitude that we just keep smiling we don't talk about the reality and in the end it will all be okay well it won't be okay and we see in education what the problems are so let's address the real issues free movement, participation, guarantees of funding and making sure that we're being honest to every sector in Scotland let me address some of the points that have been raised in the debate I have to say that I have a strong admiration for Liz Smith as she knows that has never been an advantage to her in her own party but I am pleased that she has been so straightforward about the issue of post study work visas and migration I wish her party listened to her more often on these matters because she is utterly right without the post study work visa without a realistic approach to migration and free movement we will not be able to keep our unique position I hope that her party has also listened to Liz Smith about the issue of Scottish Government responsibilities because she made the point quite correctly that the Scottish Government is responsible for HE funding she hoped that we would be discussing and negotiating this with the UK Government and that we would welcome the chance to sit down and discuss matters of devolved competence with the UK Government so I hope that she will go and say that to her Tory colleagues in England but on financial issues there are many solutions many solutions to that at all they do not include removing the opportunity for free education they would include of course independence let me move on to Ian Gray's position on colleges and the threats to the number of students and EU funding we have a college sector that is I believe sharper, leaner and more focused than it was before but we need to do more and the college sector will have to be assisted in some way if Brexit takes place because there are two key problems that he identified that are correct one is the monies that are used from European sources in order to support the college sector and the second one is the income that these colleges often get from students who are EU citizens working here and the biggest guarantee that you should look for immediately is a guarantee to the rights of those individuals to stay within Scotland that would help enormously I have to say that Jeremy Balfour who talked a great deal about research actually touched upon a key point when she talked about Norway and Switzerland as exemplars of countries outside the EU that were doing well perhaps I should point out that Switzerland of course is the most cited small country in the world in research apart from Scotland per head of population because all the papers from CERN of course are published under the Swiss imprint CERN would not be possible without free movement of labour Norway also has free movement of labour so I hope if that is the belief of the front bench of the Tories in this Parliament they are making that point to the hard Brexiteers who appear to be controlled in Birmingham this week because without free movement of labour none of those things would be possible and research would not be possible can I remark on the tremendous contribution that Gillian Martin made in reading an email from somebody else that is not diminishing her skills as a speaker but she read a very important contribution to this debate a very important question not answered by Amber Rudd today talking about the generous offer that's made to students and looking at tougher rules the reality is that the attitudes being shown by Amber Rudd and the UK Tory Government will drive away good researchers because as her correspondence Sam says they will feel insecure they will question their future and there are other places where they can work and my colleague Mr Swinney made that point about doctors this afternoon in reality university medical schools will suffer immediately because the highly skilled medics teaching in universities can teach in other places look at what has been said today about doctors not being welcome and say I could work elsewhere can I now finish with Ross Thompson's contribution perhaps have been a happier debate if we had finished before Ross Thompson's contribution he did unfortunately show that he had no knowledge of the sector he had no support in the sector and his suggestions would actually damage the prospects not just of universities in Scotland but of every Scottish student because it is complete nonsense to say that Scottish students are being squeezed out in any way there are more students at Scottish universities than there ever have been their results are better than they ever have been and the whole way that Ross Thompson approached this debate was to inject a hardline right wing view of what universities should be unfortunately it's not laughable because if we allow that hardline right wing view to dominate the debate on higher education then we will lose the precious advantages of Scottish higher education and the advantages are threefold one is it is open and accessible it is honest to its traditions in that way secondly it is of the highest quality it is world meeting and the third great advantage of Scottish higher education is this we believe that education is a societal good not an individual good and we all benefit from that thank you cabinet secretary that concludes our debate on the implications of the EU referendum and the next item of business is consideration of business motion 1809 in the name of Joe Fitzpatrick on behalf of the parliamentary bureau and it's setting out a revision to the business programme I would ask any member who wishes to speak against the motion to press their request to speak button now I call on Joe Fitzpatrick to move motion 1809 formally moved thank you and no one has asked to speak against the motion I'll put the question to the chamber the question is that we agree motion 1809 are we all agreed we are all agreed there are three questions to be put as a result of today's business when we come to decision time in a few seconds the first question is that motion 1788 in the name of Bruce Crawford on the timetable for the Scottish Government's draft budget 2728 be agreed are we all agreed we are all agreed the next question is that amendment 1792.1 in the name of Liz Smith which seeks to amend motion 1792 in the name of Shirley-Anne Somerville on the implications of the EU referendum on higher and further education be agreed are we all agreed we are not agreed Parliament will move to a vote and members may cast their votes now the result of the vote on amendment 1792.1 in the name of Liz Smith is yes 30 no 93 there were no abstentions the amendment is therefore not agreed that concludes decision time and we'll move on to members' business we'll just take a few moments for ministers and members to change seats we are all agreed we are all agreed we are not agreed Parliament will move to a vote and members may cast their votes now the result of the vote on motion 1792 in the name of Shirley-Anne Somerville is yes 93 no 30 there were no abstentions