 There are jobs and then there are careers. The Department of Home Affairs provides you with opportunities to challenge yourself and learn new skills while contributing to the protection and prosperity of Australia. We are looking for graduates who will grow with us into the future. Strong leadership, shared values and culture and a professional workforce are essential to our success. Our graduate program will launch your career, helping you to gain experience. You will build your knowledge, skills and networks through exposure to a diverse range of roles across the department. The program also offers orientation and induction, a great support team and a mentor. We are looking for people who are as diverse as the community we serve. We believe our differences drive innovation and our varied backgrounds help to broaden our perspective. The skills and knowledge you have gained through university and work experience can be of great value to this department and make a difference to all Australians. Go on, thank you for joining us this evening for the Department of Home Affairs 2019 Graduate Development Program Facebook Live Chat. Two of us will be here this evening for the next 45 minutes to answer any questions you might have for us. We will also be joined by a number of senior executive officers who will be talking about their experiences in the department and also the many opportunities that are offered to grads throughout the year. So before we do that let's introduce ourselves. I am Jazz, my background is health science, I'm from Sydney and I'm a 2018 grad. My name's Cheney, thank you Jazz, my name's Cheney, I did a Bachelor of Forensic Science and a Bachelor of Criminology, I'm from Queenscliff which is a very small town in Victoria and I'm actually a 2017 grad so I'm finished and I'm fully employed in the department now. While we're talking we'll have a bit more to say but please remember to keep asking us questions, comment below, we'll see them and we'll answer them live for you. Let's begin with some commonly asked questions, now it's a bit of a basic one but it's actually a bit tricky to answer and that is what is a graduate program? A graduate program is targeted at university students in their final years of university as well as people that have recently graduated. It's a paid entry level position aimed at offering graduates an introduction into the workforce. The program is tailored to provide support and training, formal mentoring and career development planning. It usually consists of multiple rotations to give graduate exposure to the widest range of opportunities which is huge in this department. I see there's one big year of basically networking and mentorships, basically. So our next question is what is the application process like? So it's a number of steps that are involved over several months, it's quite a lengthy process. So you need to be ranked for each stage in order to move to the next one. And we do aim to have offers to candidates by August of 2018, now I believe there will be a pretty large group of applicants and the process is quite lengthy so they do the best to get them out as soon as possible but yeah August is the estimated time. So we've actually got a video that will be rolling now about how to apply so let's take a look at that. Applications for our graduate development program have already opened. You can apply through our website, homeaffairs.gov.au or on the APS jobs website. You have until 4pm Australian Eastern Standard Time, Friday the 20th of April to get your applications in. Once online applications close there will be a few more steps in the recruitment process for shortlisted candidates which include online testing, video interviews and assessment centres. Keep a close eye on your emails during this time so you don't miss out on any information. Here are some application tips which you should keep in mind. Research the department, who we are and what we do. Know why you want to work with us and what you can bring to the department. Provide relevant examples from your work, study or community roles. Don't forget to use the STAR method, situation, task, action, result. Be clear and to the point, if a word or page limit is set, make sure you stick to it. And of course, check your responses for grammar, spelling and punctuation. And lastly, make sure you check our Facebook group for more info and updates over the next few weeks. So hopefully that video answered a lot of your questions. Now we are lucky enough to be joined by Marily Venagopal, the first Assistant Secretary of the People Division. Thank you for your time, thank you for joining us Marily. I'm sure you're very busy. It's a pleasure. We've got a question for you each this evening if that's okay. Yeah, sure. First question is, you invest obviously a lot of time in the graduates in the program and I know you definitely did in my year, which was last year. I just wanted to know, are there any specific traits that you consistently see in current years and previous years of graduates that maybe just happen to be chance or maybe the recruitment team are looking for? Yeah, no, absolutely. And thank you for the questions and good to see both of you again. Look, from my point of view, I do invest a lot of time simply because and the main thing that I look for in the recruitment processes, graduates generally tend to bring this idea of self-agency. They focus on their careers, they are interested in taking on challenges, they stretch themselves and they typically put themselves forward for that experience and that's exactly what we look for. So summarizing that, self-agency, the go-getting attitude, curiosity and resilience, that's what we look for. And why is it that you invest so much time, effort, money into grads? What do they bring to the department and why do you think it's so important to have grads in and around? Absolutely. Let me first perhaps play it the other way. Let me say what we have on offer for the grads and then come back to why grads are important to the department. Graduate programs have always been an important part of this department in the various shapes and forms that we've had it. Most recently we became the Department of Home Affairs and we have formed the portfolio of home affairs. That actually makes us a workforce 27,000 strong and I think as a department we are the third or fourth largest in the whole of the common world and that gives us a great opportunity to be able to offer for the grads a whole range of career opportunities across the board. So as you know, we work across Australia and from around 53 posts all around the world, right? And that is quite a unique opportunity for our grads. They can work anywhere from counter-terrorism to migration policy. We serve processing to cyber policy, accounting, finance, HR, the whole lot, Intel, ICT. So that's what the department has on offer for grads. We have been growing our graduate program. So it was what I think in your year it was 35. 34, yeah. 34 and we now have around just under 80 and I want to keep growing it. What we see in that is obviously these are graduates who are fresh out from universities or new into the workforce. You bring fresh ideas. You bring a perspective which sometimes is lacking in an organization. This is that large where we don't necessarily have the level of turnover that large organizations typically don't tend to have and it's good to have new perspectives come into the organization and that's fantastic. You mentioned quite a few areas there that the department is interested in has sections and stuff in. Can you give us a bit of information maybe about areas you've worked in or the area you're currently working through now? For me? Yeah. Just out of curiosity. Indeed. So I am the head of the people division, so which essentially means I'm everything HR, including the graduate program. I think because of the virtue of my role, I am very lucky to get a lot of exposure to all areas of the department. So I'm typically involved in a lot of the decision making which goes well beyond the remit of pure HR. And I think bringing it back to our department, that's actually a feature. We encourage people to get involved. We encourage people to be curious. And particularly I think coming back to grads, I think I said this in my answer to the first question. It is exactly those kind of values that we're looking for and not only in your graduates but across the board. We want our people to be curious. We want our people to be investigative outside work as well as within work and contribute more broadly into work and society. And this year was one of the biggest intakes in the department's history, if not the biggest. I'm sure we'll be getting bigger and bigger. How do you see it growing over the next few years and what can grads in the future, I suppose the grads watching, what can they expect moving forward? I think they can expect more of this. I do hope that we grow to three digit numbers for exactly the type of reasons that I have planned just a little while ago. We will continue investing in the graduate program. We will continue getting smarter about the way we invest in the graduate program. In the past, and we have generally tended to not target specific vocations, but I think as the size, complexity, and reach of our, and the remit of our department is increasing, we are going to focus much more on specific vocations over a period of time to be able to grow the skill set in that area. So for instance, in this particular round, we are specifically looking for policy graduates. And there's a reason for that because our remit now as the Department of Home Affairs spans quite a few national security related policy areas. So we want to grow that vocation. We want to invest in it and we want to have a pathway for graduates in that area. And that's just an example. Similarly, I think you are from forensics and cybersecurity, forensics, that kind of background is equally important for us. So we will try and focus specifically on certain vocations and grow graduates as well as our own employees through vocational pathways. But it's just the beginning of the journey for the grads. Whereas for others, they are already here. Feel like that was quite a few hints for everyone that's now applying practically. Yep, that is it. Rewind it, watch it again. Well, we do thank you very much for your time earlier. I know you're very busy, but we do appreciate, and I'm sure the viewers would appreciate the comments that you made and the answers. Not at all. It has been my absolute pleasure. And can I also say that as an overall department and its leadership, I certainly don't. And I'm sure my colleagues don't certainly see this as an impulse down their time. This is an important investment that we're making, and I can promise you that you will not see a single manager who would actually say that not investing in people is a good idea. So I'll leave you with that. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thanks very much, it was a pleasure to meet you again. So we do have some audience questions that we'll be going to, some live questions. We'll get them up for you. Bring them up for you, yeah. Technically at colleague. The first one we have is from Bob. What would you be able to describe as a typical day for us as a graduate and or as an employee? So you can have the graduate and help them for you, sorry. As a graduate, I mean, we're exposed to a lot of different areas, experiences. Basically that's what the whole year for us is about. So we do try, and our managers are very supportive. They just try to get us into a lot of different meetings and briefings and things to delve into before we go out. It's fully fledged employees, I guess you could say, to help us sort of decide what we really want to do over the year. And my experience as a graduate was much the same. It was more, you're obviously there to work, but you're definitely there to learn as much as you can. Because you're not just a regular employee, you're a graduate. So I can definitely agree with that. There's definitely a big difference between transitioning from a graduate to a full-time employee, being that I'm a lot more in charge of what I want to do. I obviously have my job and I have my set of things and that changes and adjusts to what the question is, what's going on in the government at the time. Everything definitely changes very quickly, but it's a lot more set in stone and to do anything additional. As in today, obviously, I put my hand up. I wanted to be a part of this and I spoke to my supervisor, but anything that, any direction that you want your career to go, you really have to push it a bit harder. But the graduate program just sets you up so perfectly that you have so many connections, you know so many people and you just know so much more about the department. So yeah, pushing yourself. So you get touch points into every different little area. That's out there. Our next question, sorry, thank you. I hope we answered your question, Bob. Our next question is from Steven. Given that the Department of Home Affairs is relatively new, how is the recruitment process similar to the recruitment or related departments in previous years? I hear the Department of Immigration and Border Protection. We're following the same assessment process as last year, it's very similar and from the previous year, I've actually looked at both sides of them as well. Justin, give you a little run through. Yeah, sure. There's obviously there's the online application which is closing in just over two weeks. So definitely get your applications in. Plenty of time to do so. After that, we do move to cognitive testing which is more sort of online tests. From there, we progress to video testing and then finally the assessment centers where you'll be working in a lot of teams, doing a bit of an assessment and also having an interview in a panel. So it's quite similar to the last few years. I don't think it's changed much from where I was. The next one, thanks for that, Steven. The next question we have is how many graduate positions are available this year? As I touched on and Morally touched on, it will be one of the biggest ones in history, so much bigger than this year. Moving to around a hundred, hopefully, I'll crack that three digit mark that Morally mentioned. There's about 70 to 80 now on, but it can be bigger and better, I guess, next year. Much bigger from our 34 from last year, for sure. We've got another question from Bob. What do you like most about working at the Department of Home Affairs? What is the most rewarding work that you've done so far? And what do you like least about working at Home Affairs? That's a big long question. I'll have a go. So working at the Department of Home Affairs, my definite standing out favourite is the fact that it's so big, like there's so many different vocations, there's so many different areas, like I'm traditionally a science student, you wouldn't have thought that you could a science student could come in to the Department of Home Affairs and find so many things available, but I don't even have to stick to the science, like I've tried policy, I've tried ABF, I've tried support, like I've been able to try everything, so that's a big yay for me. I'd agree, much the same, I'm coming from a health science background and you wouldn't think traditionally a health science would really fit in with immigration and home affairs, I guess, but yeah, it's the ability to move around, you know, it's a 25,000-odd large department, so there's a lot of different sections that we can really move into, and that's, I guess, much like you, that's something I really, really like. The next part of that question was what's the most rewarding work you've done? I spent last year my second rotation in Investigations Division, and that was by far the most rewarding thing I've done, just because I felt like I was receiving work as it came in, like as it was relevant, and I was working on it, and I was giving output that was actually affecting people's lives and actually making a difference in what was happening, and like, it just, it really made me feel good, and like seeing what I'd done on the news, that was a huge thing for me, and I felt like I was really making a difference. Yeah, this was, for me, it's more the small little things that you do, that sort of push and help towards a larger, larger sort of project, and that's always rewarding to see your work has gone in into a much larger project. And finally, what do you least like about working at Home Affairs? I guess I'll start with this one. To be honest, I've only been here for over a year, but in the program itself for three months, and I can't really think of any negatives at this stage. Probably sounds very cliche and cheesy, but yeah, I honestly can't, it's such a big department, you work with a lot of good people, and the flexibility of the working environment, and also where you are itself. It all sort of, for me, that's all big positives, and I can't really think of any negatives to be honest, so yeah. I guess, I've been here a little bit of time now, probably the biggest negative is commuting into the city. It's very frustrating. I'd not been to Canberra before I came here, and it's good, it's very small, but it's also public transportation. Public transport has a little bit to be desired. Other than that, because it's such a constantly moving, constantly evolving, as a grad, you constantly change the position and environment, changing your desk, setting it up again, taking it down, shredding everything that you don't need as you move to the next position. I found frustrating, but it's all for the good. Yeah, it's all part of the process I guess. So we do thank you for the live questions. We will get to those further in the live video as well. We are going to introduce our next guest. Thank you very much. So here we have as our second guest is David Wilden, the First Assistant Secretary of the International Division. He'll be sharing with us a bit more about what graduates working in his division will be doing. So thank you for coming, David. My pleasure. Look, the International Division obviously is a very oft sought after place to work. The allure of the international is compelling, and I totally understand that. But what we actually offer is more than just that concept of international engagement. We're a hub point for the organisation that brings together the domestic and the international context. We need to be across all domestic issues because we look after our national security, borders, transnational crime, et cetera. But at the same time, we need to make sure we're very well connected with our counterparts across the world, either through our regional network, through our foreign affairs, et cetera. So we have sort of a multitude of roles to play. So what a grad gets by coming into an international division is a very good oversight of the whole organisation. And this is not to downplay the other divisions because I've run some of them as well, so I wouldn't dream of it. But if you work in immigration policy or security, you'll get a very deep understanding of a quite a specific area. International gives you the opportunity to sit sort of half a layer up and look across and look for those linkages. And as a grad, that's one of the most important skills that you can learn is how do you draw the links? How do you draw the links between what might be happening over on the right-hand side and the left-hand side, which, if you're in a particular lane, you may not see. So I think we offer that. We also offer, obviously, as part of the policy group and morally mentioned it before, that link to the vocation. And we've done an awful lot of work focusing on the policy vocation. And beyond if you like what a grad would get coming to home affairs from a content perspective, I think we are probably more advanced than many other organisations, he says, using a strong selling pitch, to actually say to you as a grad coming in, here's your pathway. Here's the skills and capabilities we are going to develop in you over the coming years. As you seek to move up the ladder or move across, it's supported by well-structured curriculum, training opportunities on the job development. So we sort of bring together, if you like, under the policy framework, both the content side, which is fascinating and hopefully effectively bring together how we actually develop our policy staff, ranging from the day you arrive to the day you decide to go and do something else. That's fantastic. We're going to run through. Thank you very much, David. That's all right. You've very much stolen my first question for you and answered it well more than I could have asked. Both are doing policy group. We've got to be half a step ahead. Definitely. I can definitely vouch for a lot of what David has said because hopefully he remembers I was actually his grad for my first rotation last year. I do indeed remember that, yes. I'll place my new question with that. But very quiet when they first come in, grads. Changed a lot. That's right. I'll say that about it. It's fantastic. Everything David has said is true. I was not in international division, but I was in the previous policy position. You saw my question. So I'll ask Jess to go on with this and I'll replant. I guess as in the current climate that we are as international engagement and liaison increases, how do you see the role of the department changing? And I guess in touching on that, how do you see the grads role for what they will be doing? How do you see that sort of changing or evolving over the years? Yep. Look, it's going to be, it's one of our biggest challenges. We have as a new portfolio now, we obviously have the challenge of creating the dynamic across the different policy constructs we have that have come in. And that's the work in progress at the moment. We're doing a review of our international footprint because we now have, if you like, an extended network as other organisations have come in with offices overseas, be it within the department or the broader portfolio. So the concept, as I said, of that very broad range of content areas, a policy officer and then obviously a grad as one of our junior policy officers is now going to have to be looking at domestic circumstance, international circumstance. You will, for example, in international division, be sitting in a team that might cover a particular geographic profile or a particular issue, say transnational crime or people smuggling. All of those issues are complex and all of them aren't linear. So you're going to have to both become the expert, if you like, of your particular country and all your particular region. And then you're going to lay across that. So in that region, in one region, for example, the priorities might be around trade and traveller facilitation and visas, et cetera. In the other there, national security. In the others, it's countering foreign interference, it's counter-terrorism. So every role you will have will have a slightly different emphasis, although the core, in terms of the skills you need, being smart, energetic, writing well, writing fast, learning the disciplines of the cabinet process, learning the disciplines of briefing ministers. They're the sort of things you're going to learn in those early days that hopefully, as you move into those different content areas or you have to look across more broad spectrums of work, they're the things that will equip you well to do that. Sounds pretty interesting. Got another one for you. OK, I'll give you a shot. Time to recover. This will hopefully help the people that are successful applicants, but also I hope everyone that's currently watching that isn't applying is actually already a member. What do you find, or what are the qualities you find in an outstanding grad? Like, what are the feedback? What's the feedback you hear that you really like and the traits that you look for if you have the choice yourself to choose them? Look, I think successful grads come from the balance of self-confidence and humility. We have, you know, you've all been selected above many others to join the department and you bring with you the skills that you have developed through your period. There'd be a university, some of the workforces, have profiles quite broad. The last thing we want is grads that come in and say, well, I have studied this at university, therefore I know. You do, you do know lots, but there's also a lot more to know. So bringing the humility to say, I'm here to bring the skills, knowledge and experience that I have with an enthusiasm and an energy. Home affairs is probably one of the most dynamic portfolios I've ever worked in and I've been working for 36 years in the public service. Our capacity has been tested, but we've all really enjoyed it, I think. And partly that comes down to the nature of the people and what they bring. You know, we're not an old bureaucracy. We aren't time watchers here. We are looking at nation building. We are looking at how do you bring to bear your skills and knowledge to achieve an outcome for government? So the government sets the agenda. We service the government of the day. When you have a portfolio as broad as home affairs, the ambitions are high. We have an executive who wants to take this country forward. Our role is to support that. So you need the energy, you need the enthusiasm, you need the skills. What we offer you is the support and the pathways that hopefully you can bring to bear the best of your skills, have the humility to learn from others. You know, old people like me that have been around a few years can help you learn. You know, take on mentorship, take on relationships outside your work area that says, you know, you as an individual need to be developed and you as a professional officer need to be developed. How can we join up to do that? Thank you. Yeah, I guess one final question. It's drawing from 36 years of experience. Yes, what's the... Yes, Sonny, yes. What's something that's sort of stuck with you, I guess, over the years and something you've passed on to all the viewers? Be courageous. I mean, one of the things that we often say, you know, when you read APS papers, you know, some of the lexicons, you know, one of the criteria of getting into the senior executive, which I mean, is, you know, is courage. It applies at all levels. It's the courage of your convictions and the courage of your ideas. It's your ability to put them on the table, knowing that sometimes we'll go, yes, thank you so much, we'll come back to that. I'm a firm proponent of the concept that every idea has its day. I've watched things that other people have talked about, be implemented five, seven years later because perhaps the time isn't right. But if you don't have the idea, if you don't table the idea, it'll never have the opportunity to be tested and never have the opportunity to be implemented. It's very easy to fall into the setback to say, I'm here to serve my boss. No, you're here to challenge your boss. You're here to actually say, I've had some really good ideas. I've been reading all this and I bring a fresh mind and a fresh intellect to this problem. Maybe it can be this. Might be put aside, but I would really encourage you on and I think I've partly succeeded because I've been prepared to ask the dumb question. And someone might turn around and say, that's a dumb question. I say, okay, well, great, but I've at least asked it. And then a couple of years later, you go, ha ha, my idea paid off, it's been implemented. So bring your courage, bring your enthusiasm. Thank you so much for your time today, David. That's my pleasure. I heard that it's helped everyone listening and it's definitely actually helped us. Cheers. Thank you very much. We'll actually cut now to a pre-recorded video about Jackson's cohort's first six weeks. My time with the Department of Home Affairs so far has been a fantastic learning process in which I've learned so much about working for the APS and how this department makes a profound impact on the Australian community as a whole. My first six weeks here have been challenging and exciting. I've met so many new people from the graduate team who are giving me so much insight into my career progression and the different areas within this department. And in that, I've gained a better understanding of how it works. I moved here not knowing anyone and now I have a great new group of friends. My first six weeks within the program have been amazing. The grad team has been really supportive with the move down to Canberra and I'm really surprised with the diversity of the grads that we have and also the amount of opportunities that the grads are given within the program. It's interesting. It's different every day. Moving to Canberra was a very daunting task however I was surprised at how vibrant and global this city is and within that I've made so many new friends in a very cosmopolitan environment. I've got a really, really great team who inspire me to learn and are pushing me already to decide what I want to do next. Moving down to Canberra from Sydney was a bit of a challenge but having the grad team there with some support was amazing. I've learned skills in a great team and feel like I'm already making a huge impact. I'm so appreciative of this offer and I cannot wait for what the year has to offer. I'm really loving living here and I wouldn't change it for anything. Welcome back. I hope you enjoyed that short video of my fellow graduates from this year. So just a reminder to keep sending in questions and we'll get to them over the course of the evening. So on that note, I guess we'll touch on some more questions. We've got one from Jade. Just wondering what are the highlights from this program and what other advice would you give to other graduates? It's interesting. Do you want to? It is good. No, it's a very good question. That's very relevant. I guess, you know, as I finished my graduate year, the one, the highlight was the people. It was meeting such a variety of people, making so many friends and I know that sounds like very casual and this is a job but like it really does make the difference and now that I've made all those friends in my graduate year, I can actually go back and contact them if something comes up in my current role. So I'm like, oh, I need to do something about visa. Oh, I know this person in that area. I can just give them a call and so that's both my highlight and my advice is talk to as many people as you can if, like, when you make it in and when you're talking to, like, just be friendly to everyone. Make the most of every opportunity with every person and you never know when it's going to be helpful and you never know when you're going to make a friend. It doesn't all have to be business. Yeah, I'd agree. I mean, touching on that, it's the friends and the people that sort of help you when times are tough and you're sort of away from home, family and friends and they're who you draw upon. So yeah, much the same. That would be that and also one of the highlights is just what a lot of the executives, senior executives that you think otherwise are very busy and they've always got plenty of time to give you a word or a lending hand. So that's, it's really warming, I guess, and it makes things easier. Definitely, I agree. They're so friendly. You can really talk to anyone. We have another question in from Bob. Thank you for your questions, Bob. We really appreciate it. Do graduates choose where they complete their three rotations or does the department decide? And how is the decision reached at the end of the graduate program about where one works? Do you want to take it away? Yeah, it's always a hot topic where our graduates can end up. So graduates, although they don't choose, they do nominate some preferred streams of where they want to end up, I guess. The grad team, a lot of the time, will liaise with yourself and have a sit down and talk about where you want to end up. Over the course of the year, it's sort of, you get a taste of a lot of different areas that where you might want to go or what you think is interesting. And nothing said in stone, I guess, that's the key message. It's a two-way feedback process that a grad team is always willing to listen as long as you're willing to pitch and put forward your ideas. I definitely agree, Jess. Yeah, it's all about, if you don't say it to the grad team, they're not going to know. And it's not like you've got your little hole pigeoned out for you, like communicate their people, where people, like, if they know that you're really interested in a certain area, they'll do their best. They're lovely people. So, yeah, it's really just about communication and hope for the best. And saying that, I mean, it's not really, I mean, a lot of people coming with an idea of where they want to end up and sort of stuck with those, you know, areas. But what you'll find is, as you go through the process and I suppose get experience in different areas, you'll find things that surprise you. So I guess it's open mind coming in with an open mind is definitely helpful. Definitely. Yeah. Take it away. So this one's from Jatinda. My wife has done Masters in Information System. Is there any scope for her? Yes. Yes, there is. We encourage a range of qualifications and of detailed information in the departments on their recruitment page. But basically, like, as we said earlier, we're both from science backgrounds and you wouldn't think that there's a vocation for us, but there really is. So, look, any qualification is welcome. And just from the top of my head, that sounds like something that would be very handy. So, yeah, of course, please apply. Yeah. Let's move on to the next one. Yeah. So I've got one from Andrew. So, broadly, is there an age consideration for graduates? Sorry about that, we just had some technical issues, but we're back up and running. And we'll read you that whole question just in case. Yeah, let's repeat Matt's question. So Matt asks, are staff members that have completed the grad program looked at more favorably than those that haven't been applying for promotions? And basically, as we're saying, not quite, no. Every job is assessed based on merit. So, although it doesn't specifically favor you in one sense, the grad program does help you gain many skills and experience along the way that would, I guess, ultimately help you with that application. Yep, basically that's true. It doesn't change anything, gives you help, but no, it's not looked at in the criteria. Thank you very much for your questions. We've still got a few more that we'll answer later. But right now, I would like to introduce our third and final guest, Melissa Goe-Lightly, Deputy Secretary of Visa and Citizenship Services. Thank you very much for coming. Thank you for having me. This is really great. Also, apologies again for our system just dropping down. Yes, I just noticed that outside. I promise I didn't break it. No problem at all. Yeah, so Melissa actually started off as a grad. I did. And has now reached lofty heights of deep tech. You see, what can happen? Yeah, yeah. So you've worked through a number of federal agencies. Yeah. And along the way, you've ended up here. Yes, I have. Yeah, yeah. So I started as a grad in the Australian National Audit Office, which still exists. I didn't break that either. And from there, I went into a policy and program department. And in those days, it was called Department of Employment and Workplace Relations. And it is now called Jobs and Innovation. And so, yeah. So it's still there too, just with a different name. And from there, on to Department of Human Services and on to here. So yeah, it worked across quite a number of areas in the APS, which I think just goes to show how varied the work can be. And within each of those departments, it did about five different jobs anyway. So yeah, lots to consider, lots to learn, lots to experience across the whole APS. And the graduate program is a really good way of getting an entry into what's possible. But just learning what's possible. But the opportunities that it gives you throughout your career is just amazing. Well, really, very glad I came in as a graduate. So we've got a lot to look forward to. You have, you have. It's a really big year. It's a big adjustment, of course, particularly for those people who have to move to Canberra and away from family, away from friends. But it's also a big adjustment from uni to full-on work. I mean, obviously, lots of this work through uni. But it's full-time, intense, lots expected of you. But there's also lots to learn in that year. And I think that's the other thing. It's probably the only time in your career that anywhere, whether it's here or anywhere else, that public service, private sector, that you'll get a whole year devoted to your own development. And so you need to take that opportunity. But the rotations, I think, are really great. They get to give you a taste of what all the different areas of the department are. And sometimes the temptation is to select areas or rotations that might be very similar to what you've already done or to your qualifications. And I would actually say, make sure you do at least one rotation in a completely unrelated area. In fact, try and do all three. Because you just don't know what you don't know. And I had that opportunity to do three completely different rotations. And you learn something from all of them. But most importantly, you learn to not be blinked about what might be possible. And that was a big thing for me coming over graduate year as well. Yeah. Wonderful. Thank you very much. I have a question that's actually out of my interest as well. But I hope everyone else can glean a little bit of information from it. You've mentioned, obviously, you've been through a few different departments, but also you just mentioned the change within departments as well. People who are applying have obviously been looking and keeping an eye on the different departments, updates, and things, and will have noticed the change from department immigration and border protection to the Department of Home Affairs. And I'm wondering, do you think this will have a big effect in the change if a graduate were to apply? If they're applying for immigration versus home affairs, have it changed anything? Or in your group specifically or in general? Look, I think it hasn't changed how you would apply. It has definitely changed what options are available, because of course now home affairs does even more things than immigration and border protection did only three months ago. So it changes, again, what's possible in terms of opportunities, what you can learn, what rotations will be available, what things you'll be exposed to. So yeah, it's just made a broader range. And the more experience that you have, the more you're exposed to, the more competitive you are in the next step that you make in the public service or indeed outside. So all of these skills that you're learning are as valuable in the private sector as they are in the public sector. So that's the other fantastic thing, I think. Good news. That's a good point, I think, when I am. Not that I want everyone to go to the private sector, not that I want everyone to go to the public sector. And look, my background is in accounting. I'm a Bachelor of Business. And so particularly when I went through the more traditional pathway would have been to chartered accounting or tax work, et cetera. But the opportunity came up for me to join the public service. And honestly, I've never looked back. Yeah, never regretted that decision. Yeah. That's a good point. I think when I was applying last year, we were still under DOVP, Department of Immigration and Border Protection. And now we're carrying affairs as ASIO and Officer Transport Security. So you never know where it could lead to and what opportunities you get. Yeah. My work was very varied anyway. Yeah. And it's just got more so, yeah. So did you, I guess, have, when you started as a grad, did you ever think you'd reach to where you did? No. I thought I'd be, I'm actually originally from Rockampton in Queensland. And I thought I'll be home in two years. You know, like doing something else, I don't know what. But yeah, it's been more than two years. No, it's, no, I never, ever thought. And the piece of advice I would give to people is apply for jobs, or look for jobs, or look for experiences that are going to stretch you by your means, but that you're going to enjoy. I've never actually been one that sort of thought about level. I want to enjoy what I'm doing. And if you do that, you do well. And, you know, advancement will come and opportunities will come as a result of you doing well. That's one thing, again, doesn't matter what workplace you're in. Good performance stands out, and people want good performance. They don't want people who are struggling or they don't want to put people through that, you know, that's not nice for anybody. So, or someone that doesn't like what they're doing that shows, you know, and we see that in all walks of life. So that would be the advice I'd give anyone. Look for things that you are going to enjoy doing, but don't mix that up with what you're comfortable with. It's got to stretch you, you've got to learn, you've got to be continuing to grow and build new skills, but look for the enjoyment and the rest will follow. Yeah, it's a great piece of advice for, I guess, not only grads, but people have been in the APS for decades. Yeah. If you're not enjoying it, you're doing it. Definitely. Just like they tell you in school, don't do subjects you don't like. Yeah, it's harder to perform. It's not that you won't, but it's harder. And, you know, life's too short. Kind of like what you do. I definitely agree. Yeah. Maybe one last quick question for anyone. Just Deputy Secretary of Visa and Citizenship, can you give us maybe a glimpse of what, what kind of work that entails, especially for grads, a really, really baseline? What's the point? Yeah. Wow. How long has it got? Oh, sorry. So basically, the whole aim of the group is to make sure that the people coming to Australia are the people that should be coming. So they meet their obligations. But even before that, at the whole point is, Australia's economy is actually these days very much built around a couple of key industries. And one of them is tourism. Another one is education. A third of Australia's economy is around education. So, for example, if our, therefore our tourist and student visas don't work, if that system doesn't work, then the country suffers economically, let alone all of the wonderful diversity that those people bring to us. So it's a very key part of Australia continuing to be a place that is resilient, that has a good economical base and something and a place that can grow. So, but also visas are the way that we attract others and with skills that we might not have, might have gaps in our own economy. So new emerging industries or industries where we just, our internal demand can't keep up, sorry, our internal supply can't keep up with the demand. So it's a really important part of advancing Australia. Definitely. But equally, while we welcome all of those people, whether it be for a week's holiday or for something more permanently, that there are obligations and we take seriously that border protection stuff, the protection of our own citizens. And so, yeah, you know, we want you to behave when you're here and not do something bad. So there's a whole lot of that. And then of course we've got the citizenship side and that is such a valuable commodity in that it's where we very much commit to signing up to what it means to be Australian and share in the values that the rest of the community has. You make the decision that, yes, you want to join that community and be a very positive influence on that community. And citizenship once conferred very hard to remove it. So we take very seriously that decision-making that goes around whether somebody has met the standard for citizenship. So again, we really do want people to take that step. We want to welcome people into the community as citizens. But there's also an obligation to be met as well. So everything we do. And there's a whole lot of stuff that lies under it. But they're the two goals. Life-changing things. They are very much so for the country as a whole, but of course for the individuals that are getting the visa or citizenship. And of course for their workmates, their fellow holiday makers, their fellow students, the influences is very wide and very deep. Wonderful. Thank you very much for the visa for your time. We do appreciate your experience. Thank you everybody for tuning in tonight. We're going to quickly squeeze in one question before we go in. So let's keep going. Oh, here we go. We've got a citizenship one. So I have a Q&A, citizenship requirement. I wanted to ask if applicants needed to be an Australian citizen at the time of application or at the time of commencement, if successful. So with this one, I'll just wrap up. I guess you need to be an Australian citizen by April 20, the day applications close. So that's the biggest requirement for citizenship. That's all we have time for today. We do thank you all very much for tuning in and asking all the questions. If you have any further questions, feel free to email us, World Pool Forums, LinkedIn, Facebook, leave a comment below. Don't hesitate and the grad team will definitely get back to you with that one. Thank you, everybody. Thank you very much for listening. Thank you for having me. Thank you.