 So thank you all for joining today, you are at the event titled gender and just transition so if you're in the wrong event, please do stay on, even if you are at the wrong event. So today we will be talking about different perspectives on gender just transitions we have a great pool of speakers here today, coming at you from different sectoral perspectives and also geographic regions that they work in. And you know that gender just transitions is a hot topic right now. So, as ID, we are really trying to reflect on how we are engaging in the space, what our strengths are what our partnerships could be in this area of work. And as part of our exploration, we're trying to understand what does gender just transitions really mean. And there are plural perspectives on what the what what this really means which is why we started this event to kick off some of the discussions around what a just gender just transition is. We want to gather as well different ideas for integrating gender, gender issues into just transitions topics so just transitions has been primarily northern focus it's been also energy sector focus. So how do we integrate more gender issues around economic informality double burden of care family and care work in into some of these more typical just transitions issues and also challenge the perspective of what a just transition issue is. I would also like to identify what gender just approaches are from different sectoral experts. So we have our panelists here today but I also see from your introductions in the chat that you are coming at us from different geographic regions I saw Africa, Asia, Europe, I saw lawyers. I saw people working on agriculture so we would really like you to participate in the Q&A as well and have an interactive discussion. I think a gender just transition. A first step is about exploring different approaches and perspectives and we you are as part of the conversation as much as the panelists and us speakers here today. And for IED, why is IED organizing this event. We are, as I said we're really thinking about our role in a gender just transition just contributing how we should understand just transitions. So I would like to integrate gender intersectionality, decolonialism, decoloniality and anti-racism into some of the perspectives and our approach. And so we're just getting started in our journey of really unpacking what a gender just transition is. And so we would love to collaborate with all of you to in our journey of identifying how we should approach a gender just transition. Okay, so you might be wondering what IED does in our work on gender just transition so our approach has been quite diverse in nature. So some of our recent publications are highlighted here and Juliet will share some of our publications also in the chat. So we have recently been looking at gender and climate finance, the linkages. We've also developed some tools for tracking green and fair economic transitions. We reflected on and been active in renegotiating the law, investment contracts and treaties to promote fair economies. So we've published a paper with GI said on examining what a gender just transition means, and taking a feminist approach to gender just transition. And we've also been trying to take intersectionality more seriously, and explore how queer thinking and practice for example can contribute to our definition of justice and a gender just transition. Next slide please. Okay, so I will introduce our speakers now. Myself I work on climate finance but also gender just just justice and just transitions. And we also have here Sophie quiz there, who is the head of policy and programs for natural resources and just transitions that actually aid in the Netherlands. So welcome Sophie. We have not quantum a second who is an economist that tips trade and industrial policy strategies. And we have Laura del Ducca who is a researcher and gender and development with the Stockholm environment Institute. Thank you all speakers. And last but not least, we have our organizing team so next slide please. So Juliet you've already met her she's responsible for all the tech and the management of this event IED debates. We have Julian Nicolini who is a researcher in the shape and sustainable markets team she will be one of the organizers answering any questions you have. And Johnstone who's a senior researcher, also in the shape and sustainable markets team. And they both come from different perspectives they Julia is working on food systems and Kevin's working on energy so they can also contribute in their diverse perspectives and approaches to the Q&A. Without further ado, I will invite our speakers to give a brief spiel of what gender just transition means in the area of your expertise so we can all wear multiple hats in your line of work, but Sophie, if you could focus on agriculture as a perspective you could kick us off with Laura from the perspective of coal mining coal transitions and not wonder if you could focus on an industrial perspective, we can we can start off there first. So over to you speakers. Sophie, would you like to go first. I would like to start I hope everyone is hearing me clearly I would like to start by thanking you for this invitation, because I think this is a very important topic to discuss among ourselves and the people listening of course, because it's still being shaped as you said me, but also because we are already in this transition that we want to be gender just as we also call it an action eight. So, if I focus on agriculture specifically action eight is a women's rights organization and worldwide federation working in our 45 countries worldwide. And our core mission is to address poverty and injustice. And what you came across, particularly when looking at women's rights is that in the areas of extractives but also agriculture. We see that there's a lot of inequalities and these both these sectors are very important in transitioning to address all the climate needs that we have to have right now. So if I focus on the agriculture sector for example we see that the greenhouse gases are the second biggest polluters, but we also see that in terms of climate vulnerability. Agriculture is also at the forefront. And this is because about one billion people are still very dependent on agriculture in terms of livelihoods, but it's also about two billion people that are still hungry because of a lack of food. These are all intertwining issues which should play a central role role when we're talking about transitioning because when we look at greenhouse gases we see we have to change the way we're working. And we also see that people are hungry and need us to produce so we need to do it anyway. So what we try to challenge is action eight is really look at so what do we need this transition to look like and how do we make sure we shape this correctly, especially for these people that are most vulnerable in terms of climate but also agriculture food. We came up with four specific principles that for us outline what not just what a just transition should look like but also how it should be done. Because just talking about what it should look like not talking about what is needed to get there can hinder the process of you actually getting to a gender just transition. I briefly talk about the four principles that we have identified. And for us there's no specific order but we think all these four principles are very important to have or to include in the process of a just transition. So what for us was very important to highlight when talking about the just transition is to make sure we address and not exacerbate inequalities and inequalities really go a long way so it starts from women not having access to land in terms of agriculture practices. But also the lack of food, lack of energy if you talk also about the extractives sector, but also who has the power if we look at food production nowadays. It's mainly big agricultural companies who have the power and we manage certain commodities, which are being put on the market. So, which make women more vulnerable because if they don't have control over land or over the goods. Then what does that mean for their livelihoods so if we're transitioning, we should take into account these inequalities that are already existing and try to address them within the transition we're going to. So, it's challenging and transforming the actual systems that are currently working because what we try to say, often is we need systemic change. If we continue with the way we consume and just say, we're not just going to do it greener with less greenhouse emissions. I'm not addressing the true problems because yet again it's going to be the most powerful, the people that have the means that I've been are going to be able to control all the opportunities also in agriculture so commodity production for example if you look at the fact that you are going towards being a vegetarian and the soy plantation. If I give the Serato in Brazil as an example, you see that there again it's the local communities it's the women that are being robbed of their land for big companies to be able to bring in soy for big exports to countries like the Netherlands for example where I am based myself. So in there, what we say is the systems in which we are currently operating which are mainly focused on consumerism should also be challenged in terms of really designing them to work for people and the environment so for example we are very much when we look at transitioning in the systemic era, we want to look at agricultural practices, which work well with local communities, local knowledge, but also the environment so I don't know if most of you have heard of agroecology for example, we see that as a good alternative, which respects human rights, local people's knowledge, the environment who uses local ways of farming so the ecosystem also stays up to beat and is not destroyed because of the monocultures that for example soy plantation or palm plantations are. Number three is for us what is also important is the how you do it, it's the inclusive and participatory working in terms of what are we transitioning to. So if we're talking about okay there is a transition needed and what then are the ideas that need to be taken into account. What we see a lot is that particularly indigenous communities and women are left out of the decision making when it comes to how their land is used for example, just like I said in the example of transitioning to a more environmentally human friendly way of agriculture, even there, they should be consulted in how to best do that, not just in a quick consultation where they get an English document that they don't understand and they get a one or two days to come to a meeting, and then they can, it can be a tick the exercise box where they say okay we consulted with the communities, and now we agree or they agree with our plans to remove them from their lands to plant soy for example, it should be an intensive, understandable, a well prepared well understood process in which we prioritize people that are not always at the table to discuss how to move forward. And then number four, last but not least would be for us that it is important to really develop plans that encompasses all these other elements so is it participatory are we ensuring that all the inequalities are addressed. Our policies also transformative in terms of actually addressing all these inequalities that we have identified that have been there in former systems and that we don't want to exacerbate in the future, have that in actual plans but also actual networks which in our sense we try to also lead mainly with governments and international institutions leading this, because then it is more universal, instead of, for example, just looking at the individuals or companies to really take the lead on truly having a generous transition. I would like to stop there. Great, thank you Sophie I think there's a lot to unpack further from that, but I'll hand over to Laura now. So we seem to think that agriculture and energy are such different, different fields but maybe Laura can tie these links together over to you Laura. Yeah, thank you May for the introduction and thank you Sophie for sharing your experience it's been fascinating listening to you already. So I'm a researcher in gender and development at Stockholm environment Institute, which is a research to policy think tank with eight centers around the world. I'm based at headquarters in Stockholm where I study gendered intersectional marginalization and context of climate and environmental changes. So at SCI we work on a range of topics connected to energy transitions. For instance, I have worked on projects on water in Bolivia and Iraq on mining and Sami indigenous peoples in the area that is currently also known in Sweden, and I support the adaptation and implementation of Bosnia and Herzegovina's environmental strategy. So that is about understanding gendered risks and opportunities and programming supporting energy transitions from coal. And I also lead strategic policy engagement and communications for a global initiative we have on gender equality social equity and poverty. I find Sophie's introduction quite fascinating because I see so many links to energy transitions. In our work we see clear evidence both of gendered impacts of energy poverty and a transition, as well as of the role gender plays for proposed solutions. For instance, transitions are extra difficult for women research on industry and mining transitions has shown that the transition tends to be especially challenging for women, due to them having fewer resources such as access to land and capital, for instance, to cope with the situation. And these types of energy transitions redefine gender roles and have created new challenges and a double burden for women. Issues such as gender based violence and discrimination have made that the transition especially difficult for women. But when we talk about gendered effects, these are very much context dependent. Some things that we can say in general is that coal transitions tend to lead to women re-entering the labor market, particularly in the service sector and that we see also in Bosnia and Herzegovina, but at lower pay and worse working conditions than in male dominated sectors. Overall the families economic situation worsens, but women gain both financial independence and the double burden due to lack of childcare. Also in our work in Bosnia we see that women often become very active in both pro and antical movements when it comes to participation, both becoming more empowered and gaining agency. But these power dynamics also shift within the household and division of labor within the household tends to change, which on one hand leads to more equal power relationships but on the other it can also be extremely difficult to navigate and lead to conflict and an increase in gender based violence. From our work in Bosnia in helping the country develop their environmental strategy and action plan and now develop their transitional plan for the next few years we see that a gender social equity and poverty informed approach enables more inclusive and effective solutions, especially groups such as the elderly, the sick children pregnant women and Roma communities are more likely to be exposed and less resilient to pollution and environmental hazards and linking to what Sophie said before about land ownership. This one is also really married in our experience in Bosnia. Social norms tend to privilege male land ownership. So men own approximately 70% of land and 97% of private forests. We already see however that. And this is, by the way, something that we see around the world it illustrates feminist standpoint theory, the most affected and marginalized groups often hold crucial knowledge. And in Bosnia we see that elderly women in rural areas hold expertise of forest resources that could play a key role regarding the sustainable use of non wood forest products. So what is a gender trust energy transition. There are some things we know about good practices. For instance, and that has been mentioned as well regarding agriculture for the energy transition to be just. We need to also understand and address the underlying inequalities and power dynamics. Trust when we fail to consider pre existing injustices and inequalities and to address their main causes that can intensify feelings of injustice. And this reduces trust, which is a key requirement of collective action and then slows down some just transitions and may contribute to the democracy deficit that we see today. The second one is distributive justice. The second thing regional economic recovery is not a guarantee that the costs and benefits will be distributed equally and beyond mitigating the impacts of the energy transition we also need to achieve distributive justice. More negative examples for example, the decline in closure of the Kodak plant and Rochester in the US between 1980 and 2015 where the transition seems successful. Based on economic and demographic growth and employment rates but when you take a closer look and you zoom in the real picture is that lower skilled workers have not done that well and inequality actually increased. A good practice. That has come up in Australia actually and Lachobi Valley is that here support to workers was not only limited to direct employees of a mine or coal power plant. But in response to the facing down of the coal industry or worker transition service was established, which essentially was support available to all employees of Hazelwood power station associated contractors supply chain employees their family members. So how do we go about a gender just energy transition. I want to close by telling you a little bit about what we're doing right now in Bosnia, and that illustrates how what exactly is a gender just transition is very unclear still. So, right now, we are conducting visioning exercises and for municipalities in Bosnia. Right now we have done two of them in brezza and the week. And so with an SCI team and local partners, we support the country and creating a robust transitional plan for the next years and this was a very fascinating part of the project, because we're trying to develop or support the municipalities and developing their visions for while these resulting draft visions from both municipalities include the ambition for the well being of all social groups and of social equality and justice, very much in general. And the vision for living does include education for women in particular gender or other, yeah, other aspects of equality are not mentioned more explicitly. These workshops were designed with attention to power dynamics including gender dynamics between individuals between the different groups that were represented and also regarding the moderators chosen, but trying to understand what a gender just transition means to residents in these municipalities beyond education for women remains unclear to us at this point. What we what we did understand was that women and marginalized groups, such as Roma, the Roma population did not want to get single out in these in these visions but rather the intention is that their concerns are included in these general programs. So this is just the start of our work there, we will explore this further. We do know that gender equality programming is much more effective if specific specific objectives, such as specific indicators for gender equality are already of the vision of the objective so it's a little bit concerning but one positive note was that the role of youth and youth engagement is very much a priority for both municipalities. Thank you. Laura, I think you've jumped the gun and already offered a plethora of good practices. But I'll come back to you all later we have not wonder who's waiting patiently to deliver her intervention so over to you now not wonder. Thanks may and thanks to the two speakers Sophie and Laura who've come before me. I've already stated my name is no wonder I work as a senior economist for tips. And I would say that I mean from our organization's perspective we really started looking at the just transition. We were doing climate work before but we really got into the just transition when we did the national employment vulnerability assessments, which was in an attempt to understand, you know, who is impacted by climate change and who is going to be affected by the policy responses to climate change. And for that work, we focused on five specific value chains, including agricultural tourism, petroleum based transportation, as well as coals and metals. I suppose it was while really doing that work that I started thinking about, you know, the gender nature of South Africa's labor market and the impact that this would have on women in particular and their ability to transition, or at least build resiliency against the impact of climate change. And so I think content really for South Africa, part of the problem is that we have not just high inequality but also high unemployment rate. And when you look at who is involved in the labor market or in just any economic activity, you start to then realize that a just transition really cannot be one that is sector specific. We cannot rely on, you know, protecting those that are already in paid economic activity because the majority of them are men. And when we look at the sectors that we prioritize for the just transition when we talk about, you know, protecting workers, what we really are saying is that we're trying to protect men because those are the people that work in those particular industries actually, maybe with the exception of agriculture and tourism but even that is, you know, region specific in South Africa. And so, you know, having then done all of that work I realized that it is important to locate some of these problems within the context of South Africa's history of apartheid but also South Africa's history of, you know, just inequality and economic opportunities. And so what I have tried to do and what we've tried to do as an organization is really assess where a woman located within economic activity and found that, you know, it holds, which is that they're more likely to be in areas where there's social protection and less protection for their working rights. And so the approach that is necessary in order for us to not continue to entrench the inequalities that exist is to take a perspective to the transition that is not only considering those that are in paid economic activity but take a broader perspective. And part of that links to what, you know, Laura was saying and what also Sophie was saying which is that we need to think about what are the factors that are keeping women out of paid economic activities and to be honest, what some of what we found is generally that in South Africa one, there are no opportunities but two, unpaid care work is a very big problem. And so even in the labor force it holds, especially for black women because even amongst the different racial groups, well, amongst the different gender groups, you find that if you specify that by race, it becomes even more evident, particularly for black women who now have employment rates at below 50%, which is essentially saying less than 50% of black women are employed in South Africa as of 2021 post COVID. And that is particularly important to point out because you know when you again when you go back to where women are employed it generally is in sectors where there are no protections. And that also tends to include, you know, private households for example, even though legally there should be some sort of social protection or work protection for those that work in private households generally that does not happen. So if we are going to be talking about a just transition, what really does that look like and, you know, some of the, some of the alternatives that are presented well some of the solutions that might be presented really just go back to something as simple as providing childcare, for example, that is one big thing. But I think some of the companies in South Africa but even then it's very few I know that Nestle for example was, I'm not sure if they're still doing it but they were providing childcare for their workers. And that was provided very unequally in the sense that it was only at their head office, which is located in one of the richest suburbs in the country and so it's only serves a few people. And so I think addressing really the big factors that are keeping women out of paid economic activity, then you know allows them to get into the labor force, and therefore become part of the conversation around a just transition. But obviously we cannot wait for that to happen. We cannot wait for women to be employed first. And so we need to think about what are some of the things that we can do right now to include women and conversations about the just transition, not just in the transition itself because I think that's one of the biggest problems we don't necessarily include women in these conversations and by the time that we start to have the conversation with women, it's more of a tick box exercise, and it's more about gender mainstreaming rather than writing actual policy that is very aware of the fact that women need to be included. And so you know I think I was actually having a conversation with Netflix community constituency today and one of the things that we were talking about is the role of community organizations. We don't necessarily have that as much in South Africa anymore. And, you know, I think between labor and community organizations, there is a lot that can be done to support, especially women but broadly poor people within our communities, but there is a sort of lack of community organization. And so those are some of the, really some of the issues that we need to think about, and then move away from, you know, the sectoral approach to the just transition. I'm not going to go deeply into you know the agriculture space or the coal space but because I think that's already been covered but yeah those are just some of the issues that I wanted to highlight. I'll end it there for now. Thanks me. These are these really really important points I think you brought in some of what Laura Laura's mentioned before that some of the interventions are very worker centric, and particularly in the global south. Most of the workers are informal they don't have stable jobs they are burdened with care work. So I think we make sure that women who are not employed or about to be employed have are protected in the transition. So I wonder if Sophie you can comment on and reflect a bit on what not Gwanda was saying. From your experiences and Laura I'll come back to you a bit later about why we need to think about gender based violence in the conversations around just transitions. So Sophie, please go ahead. Yes, I think that made a lot of very valid points, especially about unpaired care work indeed because that's one of the biggest burdens on women, which is always or still unseen even though we continue to address this issue. I maybe want to go to an example of Guatemala where we work in terms of the transition where the body agricultural sector and the extractives sector come together, and where we see that women yet again are the most impacted. They are well organized, but still they can't keep up with a bigger organization so I really hear no wonder saying that that yes there should be more possibilities for women to actually access the formal economic markets or the formal working space but in cases where women are well organized we also see a lot of challenges in them being able to have their own means of sustaining of keeping up with their livelihoods but which is also being challenged by that bigger formal economy, which is a bigger system which has more power than local women so if I look at Guatemala for example, we're currently working with women that are in the middle of a very big palm oil plantation, and on the other side there is a nickel mining happening which is polluting their water for the palm oil plantation women lost their land where they couldn't do the actual normal planting of all the foods that they would have or either be able to sell for a little bit of income, which is not super big but was able to sustain them and their families. So then that was lost and then they went to fishery in the nearby sea and then the nickel mining started there and it polluted their water, also making them lose that source of income to sustain themselves and their family. This is basically one area which is being faced with challenges caused by bigger economic powers which they cannot necessarily challenge and what these women had already done and are still doing is they try to come together to see how they can address these issues commonly and not just look at one sector, because it's not just one sector that is impacting them because the nickel, if you look at the energy transition for example is one of the main elements of electric batteries. So what we see here is the conversations in Europe are mainly about how do we get the nickel how we get the manganese also from South Africa how do we get the cobalt etc. While on the local level, people are still talking about my basic human rights are being violated by another big company. And even if I find another source of income in a different way that is also being violated, because on one hand I'm dealing with big big palm oil plantation on the other hand I'm dealing with the pollution of the big mining companies, which didn't have women didn't need to have women be part of the formal market, but it did still have impact on them. Even before the transition, as someone in the comments truly noted, the issues of women have been, have always been existing in terms of unpaired care work in terms of not accessing formal markets, but even when women are active and try to contribute in a way that is sustainable for their families. They are still challenged by the big this big power dynamic so it's still up to us in this energy transition to really talk about how do we make sure that the power is also shared in thinking about where are we going towards in terms of solutions for the climate crisis. Thank you so much Sophie. Laura, I'll come back to you. I, this is a clarifying question for the audience who might be wondering. Why is gender based violence linked to this conversation around just transitions to please would you expand on that a little bit more. Thank you, may so approaches in energy transitions need to address underlying inequalities and power dynamics, and how those change and transitions which are periods of accelerated change and which power dynamics shift often considerably considerably. And this process is not only limited to certain sectors. It's not limited for instance to employment. But energy transitions are these transformative periods that are marked by increased pressure rapid changes and shifting power dynamics also within the home and these factors have for instance been linked to increases in gender based violence. So, looking at those two. I would say sets of risk factors they just match, and why the risk for increased gender based violence in energy transition is recognized and practice these connections are often overlooked. And we've seen that emerge also in Bosnia, we're essentially no research on gender based violence or changes in gender based violence patterns in energy transitions exist today. Yes, and I think you also mentioned some of the psychological aspects of the changing in the role of the double burden so when men lose out, then women have taken over productive work and this can lead to shift in household issues and increases and it couldn't lead to increases in rates of gender based violence. Thank you so much Laura. No wonder I want to come back to you because you mentioned some of the interventions related to social welfare having social safety nets. In your intervention, could you expand on that a little bit more what has worked in South Africa that we should be considerate of. Please go ahead. Thanks. So, I mean, part of the problem right now is that we haven't really explored some of these issues, especially as it relates to the transition. And so what we have knowledge of is what has existed prior to conversations about the just that just transition, just in terms of social protection. We know that social protection such as social grants for example generally provide lead to better outcomes. We've seen the shifts in access to education for example, those have generally improved as a result of social grants access to unemployed grants for example also, you know, adds to the kinds of resources that people have even though the amount is low similar to the social grants, generally you are far better off with a few hundred grants and if you have nothing at all. You know, just in terms of some of the interventions, which haven't taken place in South Africa one of them that's been flouted has been, you know, a basic income grant but there is a sort of back and forth, even with that. Honestly, the argument there and I suppose it also goes back to, you know, surface point around, even when women get into formal economic activity, they are still disadvantaged by the bigger capitalist organizations that then push them out. And so one of them, then the arguments for basic income grant is that it provides a flow for everyone to operate from, if you have some sort of income then you are able to meet some of your needs. And, you know, I think some of the interventions that I have put forward as part of an industrial policy approach generally has been, you know, using the systems that we have right now to try and change some of the sectors. So change what we manufacture for example I know around cars and the issue of electric vehicles has already been mentioned as part of the disadvantages that actually cause dislocation, but you know changes around the provision of electric vehicles but something even more is not accessible because generally electric vehicles are not accessible to the majority of South Africa's population. And so that's not really a conversation that is, you know, necessary for this discussion. Because of using industrial policy, I think, making adjustments to the sort of incentives that are provided by the state to actually incentivize creation of new industries, and we know in South Africa we have quite old infrastructure, and that rebuilding of the infrastructure and the purposes of climate proofing, for example, we have that infrastructure that needs sorting out, more than that we also have a Department of Human Settlements which is responsible for, you know, public housing, using that department's budget to ideally, you know, help with the development of new businesses around sustainable materials is one option that can be presented and I think if it is written clearly in the policy and there's an actual action plan, then it becomes a it's going to be difficult, but it becomes sort of better conversation rather than having to see what the outcomes are before we start having conversations about including women in these sectors. So really, I think one of the biggest one, some of the biggest things is addressing the issue of unpaid care work, as well as then looking at where some of the opportunities are, where can we use the power of the state to support the creation of new industries with the intention that, and I like I can't remember if it was Sophie but having a vision of what it's supposed to look like in the future and then sort of working towards that. It goes for an actual creation of a plan, rather than just waiting to see what happens because we've seen the same issues even with within the transition within, you know, the green space which has for a long time been said to be a sort of great equalizer and at the end it is reproducing some of the same inequalities that we've seen. I was, I can't remember what I was doing but I saw a very interesting statistic a few, believe it was a few months ago, or two years or so ago, but when you look at the numbers and find out who is actually employed in the renewable energy space, the great majority of them are still men. And so we need to be very intentional about how do we include women in these spaces, besides, you know, just coming back as a sort of end exercise. And again, trying to figure out what are actually, what are the alternatives that we need to present, but more importantly understanding that, you know, women are not a homogenous group. And so we require actual consultation and not a Zoom exercise where you're talking to, you know, the people that have access to the internet but you need to have actual conversations with people to find out what do they need. And so one of the things that I do for myself when we have conversations like these or I'm talking to other people in the space when they ask me what do I think is needed for the coal transition what should we be doing about coal. And so my response to be honest with you is, don't ask me ask the people in Emily, who essentially affected by the existence of coal mining in the region, but also will face the heaviest burden of employment losses because of the loss of the loss of coal mining, and the majority are going to be impacted they are women and children and all of them are going to be black, if not all of them then almost 100% of them are going to be black. And so these conversations are necessary but we also need to be having them with the people that have the lowest voice but who are going to face the biggest impact and I like that we're having this conversation. I do generally think that it's necessary to include those people whose voices are not head at the table, you know, to what to surface point before but what, how do we, how do we provide, you know, the people that at least had with the loudest voice and we are going to face a pushback from businesses always going to be pushed back from business but that also then requires a level of honesty from researchers from the people that are doing the work. It requires holding people to account and that includes the people that we interact with like in this conversation, but it also includes you know the people that are doing some of the policy work that that then becomes an actual policy document for a region, and knowing that the voices that need to be heard ahead and there is going to be pushback obviously but you know, I think we can also then use our own voices to support those workers, I suppose in a way that we haven't really done before but I think the power of collaboration is necessary in this case, rather than just you know talking amongst ourselves and really never getting anywhere with that. Thanks. I want to start off with a quick reminder for a very, very real perspective on what needs to be done and what the problems that we're facing are. I'd like to invite the audience to ask any questions that they have. I don't see any currently but please do pop your questions in the chat and give you a minute. While we're waiting for questions I'd like the panelists to reflect on why we are still having these discussions. Why is it. We've talked talked a lot about how it's the power issues the systemic problems that are preventing us from having a just transition there's so much inequality, it's it's there's so much injustice, but why is it that we can still not use that power and keep the power, get the power holders to give up some of their power. What's the problem. Okay, so please don't answer my question yet I there might be some questions from the audience. Okay, there is a question about the role of unions in the conversation so not sure if anyone wants to answer that and then another one is about. One of the people who are most affected most most affected invited to speak in webinars like these. I don't know whoever wants to take, and either of these questions please feel free to jump in. I can try out the union one. You know, I think South Africa has a long history of union organizing. But obviously, there has been some changes over the years. And I think part of the issues that we face is that, you know, even unions have to go back to their members and members generally have their own ideas about what works for them. I think at this point we're not necessarily looking at unions as big change makers but you know we're looking at unions as sort of the organizations that are supposed to be there to make sure that at the end of the day someone's wages are increased. I've noted that the majority of people represented by unions in South Africa generally tend to be in mining and in other related industries. And so part of the problem there is that you have, you know, cold workers who are aware of the fact that they're going to be in jobs. And so I am not sure how ready they are to say to their representatives hey let's actually have a conversation about phasing out call for example. And so I think it also goes back to union membership right what are the members actually saying if they're not interested in the conversation then it's not something that's going to go forward. The unions come into play and their members come into play and say, we are clearly going to be affected by this and we would like to address it very early on. Then I think a conversation can be had. And why that is important as generally when you look at mining and South Africa, yes, I know that generally cold is considered to be one of the best employers in terms of wages but it's still relatively, you know, very low wages. They have better wages compared to other sectors but it's not a living wage to say a few years ago for example there was a big fight around you know getting an actual living wage and that was never really achieved. And so, you know, I think part of it is a sort of, you know, as people who have previously not had that level of access to, you know, the sort of wealth building. We also then want to get to a point where we're building the wealth, and it fills right now that when just as we're getting to the point where we can finally accumulate whatever wealth we can build. The world is then being pulled out of out of our feet and saying, you are going to face possible unemployment. If you don't do this and this and this and so this is then some of them. I'm so sorry, but we have only five minutes left. So I want to give the two other speakers an opportunity to say something so there is actually a question about monitoring gender justice so I'll give that to Laura. Give you about two minutes and then Sophie, if you could answer a quest the question about making sure that revenue reaches women and other vulnerable communities. Yeah, go ahead. Thanks, May. About monitoring gender justice I think there are two things that are quite important. The first one is that when we talk about gender in transitions we start talking about women in transitions. And we know very little about how people of other genders experience transitions and it's very very difficult to collect that data, depending on the context of course but for example in our work in Bosnia it's very hard. And in this regard, it's important also to highlight that it's that it's crucial to understand how men are affected and that becomes very clear with the example of gender based violence for instance. And the second point is that the data on gender in transitions that we work with in research is quite scarce for most contexts, even those, even though the gender dynamics are highly context specific. So, there is a large need to assess outcomes from a diversity of perspectives and indicators beyond only employment rates and beyond the short term. And in general, I think, often data is collected in terms of quantitative data this aggregated by men and women and that then is gender data. There's a binary interpretation in this and at the same time we have, we really need qualitative data to understand what we what we have in front of us. The range of dimensions currently focused on seems to be those recurrent in development economics like employment rates and things like that. And we just start talking about care work for example, especially informal care work, but other themes for which a lot of knowledge and research and gender and development exists such as connections to violence and health, for example environmental toxins. We don't currently have this wide range of data. That's all things. Thank you. And Sophie, I give you two minutes. Yes. In terms of mobilizing revenue, I don't know if I'm truly understanding this correctly and what you're meaning to ask, but I think in terms of solutions that would also work for community, especially looking at for example renewable energy. Solar powered plants are a very interesting source if they're community owned to benefit communities in multiple ways, not just in supplying them of energy to be able to cook differently for example or to to turn their lights on or to study in the night when they don't have light. This poses a lot of opportunities and because solar power plants can be put in place decentralized, this can also give some power and control to women and communities if they are the ones controlling this energy source. In terms of wind energy, that's a little bit more complicated. So there I don't think we are as far yet as controlling that because that has to go through the official power grid, but I think if solar power plants are really executed well. We're also looking into that as action aid, you can give communities back a sort of some sort of agency, if they also learn how to control this, and if they actually own this kind of energy, renewable energy applies. Thank you for the interpretation of the question it's agency over access to energy resources would be very beneficial that's one specific one specific idea. Yeah. Okay, so thank you so much everyone thank you panelists for a really, really great discussion. I think we were very real, and we spoke about some of the challenges without and said we have a long way to go. So I think we need to be considering agenda just transitions. And I think that we do need to have a more practitioner focus webinar that brings in more marginalized voices like knock on wonder and all of you were pointing out to the mix and not just taking a gender binary perspective of all genders some people are pointing out people with disabilities use, we need to have more diverse perspectives in our conversations. So thank you so much for joining today audience thank you for being really engaged and participating. Please stay tuned to IED debates for the next iteration of this for this discussion, and we look forward to seeing you again. Thank you.