 Hey, welcome everybody to another episode of the nonprofit show. We're really excited to have Dana Skirlock back with us from Staffing Boutique talking about a really interesting thing that Dana, I was thinking about this. You know, we wouldn't have spoken about this kind of like during the pandemic or because people were freaked out about their jobs. And like, I remember Katie coming on saying, look, whatever happens, don't quit until you have another job because, you know, the employment market's all wacky and then all of a sudden it shifts and people, there aren't enough people to hire and, you know, all this. So this is going to be a really interesting conversation because a lot of things yet again are changing. And we're going to get our guru of all things in terms of employment and specifically the nonprofit sector because we work differently than other sectors. So again, if you don't know who I am, I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy, Jared Ransom, the nonprofit nerd and CEO of the Raven Group has the day off. Actually, she doesn't really have the day off. I think she's conducting a training. So she's working hard just not on the nonprofit show. Each and every day, we have these amazing partners such as Blumerang, American Nonprofit Academy, Your Part-Time Controller, Nonprofit Thought Later, Fundraising Academy at National University, Staffing Boutique, where Dana Skirlock comes to us from, Nonprofit Nerd and Nonprofit Tech Talk. These are the people that come with us each and every day on this amazing journey as we finish up our third year and we start our fourth year of broadcasting. If you've missed any of our episodes, you can find us on Roku, YouTube, Amazon Fire TV, and Vimeo. And of course now on podcast for the last year, our executive producer Kevin Pace, who we were kind of complaining about. I was complaining about earlier, but throwing some love at the same time. I'm trying to. He takes all of our episodes and has put them into podcast, which is like super cool. Okay, back to you, my friend Dana Skirlock. I'm doing great. Like we were talking about before, it is springtime. My birthday is in May. So this is my favorite time of year. So everything is going very, very well. I would say we're very busy, which is a good sign because it also means that people are hiring and there are jobs and people are shifting around. And so that means that there's a little breathing room in terms of the employment process for candidates and for clients that are hiring. Our topic today is one of my favorites because I love seeing people be passionate about the nonprofit sector and want to come into the nonprofit sector. I think that it can be a little overwhelming. I think that it can be something where people aren't sure how to go about it. And so when I'm speaking with people individually, I'll try to like give them some information that I've collected just by virtue of being in staffing for nonprofits for so many years, but you know, it's really great to see somebody be able to make that transition. And so I'm excited to see, you know, hopefully the people listening today are in that vein that are looking to make a transition into the sector and can use some of this advice. Right. You know, Dana, it's such an interesting thing because I feel, and I'd love to get your opinion about this, but I feel when there's been like social upheaval and also personal upheaval, maybe you've had a death in your family or you've had the death of a relationship or a move, you know, physical move, home change, that people do this kind of like self-reflection, self-centering, and that's where a lot of times work in the nonprofit sector rises up. Like people that they say, you know, I was doing a soulless, I was leading a soulless life and I want to lead a life of import and, you know, community. I'm going to look at the nonprofit sector. You hit the nail on the head. Absolutely. I couldn't even tell you the amount of times that I've heard in no uncertain terms that, you know, working in a corporate environment has depleted the person, and so they are finally in a position to make a transition into a job that they feel like contributes to the overall community that they live in, whether that be locally, nationally, internationally, whatever, but that they are interacting with their fellow man and that they are, you know, giving back in some way and that they have always had a pull to do that, but have never had the opportunity to. And I completely agree with you. The last time I saw this type of influx happening was when it was a recession in 2008 and the housing market crashed and everything changed. You saw a lot of people who no longer had job security, you know, and like you said, just personal upheaval due to all these changes that were happening to us collectively that now are finally answering sort of the call that they've had for a long time, you know, of wanting to participate in the nonprofit sector in a more concrete way. And so I'm seeing that again, you know, it's almost 15 years later since the like recession that I've lived through, because my working life has been from like, let's say 2006 or 2007 when I moved to New York to now. So within that like, almost 20 years, we've had the great recession, we've now had the pandemic. And so I would kind of bookend my experience at working in staffing so far with those two large events. And one of the results of those two singular events has been people from the corporate world wanting to get into the nonprofit sector, which is great, because I think it helps to diversify the talent pool that's out there for nonprofits. I think that also nonprofits can benefit from bringing in institutional knowledge from like big companies or financial firms, like there's there's some benefit to that. I think that sometimes it can be a mind, it can be a challenge to change people's minds about like people changing directions career wise, like I just think that there's some hiring managers and some people who may never want to make the switch simply because they have this kind of stagnant thinking about, you know, well, if you're in this industry, you should stay in it. And that's some candidates feel that way and would never want to jump to a nonprofit because they think they couldn't. And that also applies to like hiring managers that you speak with. Some are open to taking somebody with an unusual background for a job in some part. So some of it is also personal preference biases, you know, and so it's great that we also talk about all those implicit biases. Now, I think we're all fluent in that type of language and evaluation and like questioning a lot of like the practices that have been in place for a long time, whether that's, you know, in relation to diversity, equity, inclusion, or just, you know, our own biases about, you know, college education or our own biases about what sort of background somebody has to have. I think we're all questioning all of those things and I think that's a good thing. I think that's an amazing thing. And I think that I really appreciate you bringing that up because it's so much more subtle than gender, ethnicity, and age, right? I mean, it has these pieces that are so pervasive and fear-based and nothing's more fearful than when you're thinking about making a major, like, shift in your life. I can tell you from personal experience, I was in publishing for 30 years and when I decided to work 100% in the philanthropic space, I had a pushback from my family who were like, well, you're gonna hate it. You know what I mean? And so there's a lot of pressure to conform to the norms that we're maybe comfortable with and looking at new things. One of the things that you have brought up, and I think this is a really interesting thing to talk about, is you say find your tribe and look at maybe professional networking groups. Are you saying getting in front of people that maybe you don't know and opening yourself up to new things or what does that space look like? Well, for the nonprofit sector specifically, I think the nonprofit sector here in New York, which is the geographic area I know the most about, is great about allowing and providing networking opportunities for people working within the sector. Whether that's through YNPN, which is a national organization, which stands for the Young Nonprofits Professionals Network, they, you know, I used to go to events of theirs for years, obviously as the name implies, it's for people in their earlier part of their career. But if that is you, it's a great way to start meeting people. It's a great way to get involved with either digital events or, you know, back when I was going more regularly, it was in person here in New York. And so it's a chance to sit down with other people that are also interested in the nonprofit sector, whether they're working for a nonprofit now or not. They're people that are interested in it. And I just think the more you expose yourself to the environment you want to be in, talk to the types of people that you would be working with, it's also a chance for you to try out the sector and see if you even like it. You know, like it's, you know, obviously a networking event is not the same as working nine to five somewhere. But it will give you at least a taste of the types of things that are going on in the sector. It can give you great talking points for interviews that you have. I can't imagine going into an interview and, you know, somebody's asking about your nonprofit experience and you're like, no, have you ever been to a nonprofit? No, you know, it's much better to be able to say, well, I was just at this, you know, networking event for women in development, which is another nonprofit social group here in New York City. You know, like, oh, I was just at that luncheon and we were, you know, talking about XYZ. Like it would add so much breadth and volume to your interview. I think especially if you're in the midst of a career shift from a mostly corporate background into nonprofits. I think the other thing to remember, and this is really just a technical note, is that if you're coming out of corporate, the nonprofits, fiscal year ends in June 30th. So it is a totally different cycle in terms of like budgeting for new positions for the year when the job searches start. Like, so that's just something to keep in mind too, because I think a lot of people coming out of corporate, they're just not thinking that way because obviously we, you know, are mostly used to the fiscal year ending at the end of December with the calendar year. And so with nonprofits, it is important to note that the time that you're thinking may be the best to start job searching actually may be different because of the nonprofit sector being different. Love that you brought that up, because that is so true. And I hadn't thought of that context about where budgets are and also what's going on within an organization. I mean, it's a tough time for everybody. Usually they're just pushing so hard to finish up the year. Exactly. Oh, I love that you brought that up. Fascinating. That's really fascinating. Another thing that you talk about, and I think it kind of dovetails into the piece that you mentioned about networking and engagement, maybe if we use the word engagement, is that you bring up the notion of volunteering and how that can also be a gateway into making some of these changes. Talk to us about that. Sure. I mean, the nonprofit sector is a sector of exposure. And what I mean by that is like, if you have a mission driven organization, you want your mission to be known by as many people as possible because you're trying to bring, it's not like a hedge fund where you can barely find their website and you don't actually know their name and who works there and it's shrouded in all the secrecy. The nonprofit sector is the opposite. They have their entire staff lists online, ways to contact them, ways to get involved with the organization because the whole point is they want to complete their mission. And that usually if it's something, anything related to poverty alleviation or something community-based, that means involving the community. And so what's great about that is that nonprofits are sort of open doors and they want to bring new people into the organization. And a great way to do that is through volunteering. Again, it's a chance to meet staff members. It's a chance to also scratch that itch if you're really looking for an opportunity to give back. And that's why you're called to the nonprofit sector. To me, it should be a no-brainer that you would want to volunteer somewhere or have been previously. And that's why you're interested in the sector. Again, if we're thinking about it strategically, if you are transferring from a mainly corporate background to something that's nonprofit related, having some volunteer experience even on your resume is going to be something that is going to be very attractive to nonprofit organizations. So for example, if you're applying to City Harvest and you have on your resume that you've been volunteering at your church, your synagogue, or temple, or what have you, and you've been doing the food pantry there for the past five years, that hiring manager, that's going to ring a bell with them. So it may not be something you include on your resume if you're sending out to corporate entities or maybe it's truncated and it's only one line for a nonprofit application. I think the volunteer experience can be, obviously we've talked about resumes before in another podcast, but in resume length. But obviously you don't want to make your resume like five pages long or anything over it. But I do think adding some detail about what you've done on the volunteer side is great to highlighting your cover letter and to have on your resume. And then if it is a situation where you are trying to move into the sector and you haven't volunteered before, now's the time to start. There's tons of opportunities. You can find something that is, as my mother used to say, that every pot has its lid. You will find a mission that is aligned with your interests. There's so many different organizations, whether you want to work with youth, if you're interested in the arts. So get out there, volunteer, even if it's just once a month. I mean, it really is, I think, would give also some understanding and perspective to people that are trying to get into the sector too. Yeah, I think it's also, even when you're in the sector, I think it's a really positive thing to see how people do things. It's kind of like research, if you will. If you're a baker, you want to know what the other bakeries in town are making their dough, right? I mean, literally and figuratively. I think it's a wise thing to do, but I think it's really smart that you mentioned this because it's a way in the door that maybe people don't think about because if they're coming for the for-profit sector, you can't show up and say, hey, I'd like to volunteer. People would be freaked out. They'd be like, wait a minute, you're trying to steal our secrets, right? So I think this is a great concept. Another thing that you talk about that's kind of along those same lines, but it's a little bit more in-depth and maybe more of a commitment, is serving on a non-profit board or committee. Talk to us about that and what that might look like. Sure. I mean, every non-profit has a board that oversees, coordinates with, helps to make decisions with the organization. How involved the board is, how many members they have, that's going to vary of course by organization. And there are going to be some really big organizations that it's difficult to become a board member. It's not just like you can sign up if you want to. If I wanted to serve on New York City Ballet's board, I think it's $100,000 is the middle of the picture. It's for a certain degree of gravity, for one year. Every year. And that is a long-term cultural organization. Obviously, that's a different thing. There are lots of non-profits of varying budget size from everything from $500,000 to $10 million up to the sort of 50 million plus organizations that you hear about in the news a lot. They all need leadership. They all need board members to help with being able to bring in enough donors for corporate events, for Dallas for the year. So non-profits are out there and they are looking to partner with people from the corporate world. If you're somebody that is interested in working for a non-profit, maybe not full-time, serving on a board is a great way to be very involved to know that your money is going to a good cause. And you can find the budget size that works for you with the type of mission that you're interested in. I think it just takes a little bit of research. You may have to apply to become on the board. You may have to work with the person who's in charge on staff with the organization who's like the board liaison to get ingratiated into the board and get your application through and all that. But once you are accepted as a board member, it's really your chance to help shape the organization and potentially by extension shape the non-profit landscape. Now, if you're somebody who is interested in transitioning full-time into a non-profit, being on a board of another organization I think is a huge plus that the organizations that you're interviewing with are going to say this person is very heavily committed to our sector. And I think sometimes also coming from the corporate world, we can lose sight of like it's okay to be on the board of one organization and work at another. There's a lot of people, there's a lot of cross-pollination that way. And I think a lot of people from the corporate world would that would like scramble their brain to think about like they would think of it as a conflict of interest when actually in the nonprofit sector it's pretty common. And so you don't have to work at the place that you're on the board with. In fact, you wouldn't want that to be the case. So it actually makes sense for you to try to get on the board with an organization that you really believe in. It's also about the genuine passion you have for it. But then you would be in a great position to leverage a, especially people that are coming out of the corporate world want to maintain their director level or executive status. I think that that can be tricky because obviously they don't want to start back as an admin and work their way up within the nonprofit sector if they've been working for 20 years. A good segue could be joining a committee, helping out with a gala. They'll take professional volunteers for that and helping fundraise, becoming an official board member of an organization. Again, it's a chance for you to try out and find out what it's really like to work at a nonprofit in a less committed way than changing your entire full-time job. So it can be two fold. I think it's great for your experience. It's great for the organization. You can continue being their board member even after you do get a job in the nonprofit sector and hopefully it does help you secure that job. And honestly, I've talked to organizations who they won't even consider somebody from the corporate world for a high level job within their organization if they have no volunteer or board experience because that's how crucial it is if you're coming out of corporate and don't have any nonprofit experience. I love that you brought that up because I think you're absolutely right. It is such a weird ecosystem when you consider the for-profit and the nonprofit sector. You would never see that amalgamation of talent and focus because it would be problematic. It is problematic in the for-profit world. I love how you tied that together. And I also think that the reality of it is, Dana, that there's power in knowing that somebody else has trained you up. Maybe like an arts organization, you learn certain things that then you put into the human services sector or whatever. I think that's really a wise thing to think about. And I also think it's a great training to know how decisions are being made because that's one of the big frustrations in the nonprofit sectors. We show up and then there's this board that's pushing down pressure on us. What the heck? How did that come up? As part and parcel, and we don't have that much time, but this is one of those things I'm really interested in hearing you talk about and that's speaking up and promoting yourself. How do we do this? It's not especially for females. I think this is a harder thing. How do we do this? I think that this is a skill that some people are born with and they have no problem doing it. They're very outgoing and extroverted and it's great for them. And I think for the other maybe 75% of us, it's a skill that you have to learn, develop and practice over time. The reason I think it's so important is that you could be on a board, you could volunteer, you could go to networking events, but if you sit there at the event, listen to the speaker and don't speak to anyone or tell anybody that you're looking for a job in the nonprofit sector and don't introduce yourself to anyone, the event won't be as fruitful as maybe you're looking for it to be. So I've had people that I've suggested, hey, go to a networking event, join this group, whatever, and their response is after a couple of months. It's not really doing anything for me. It's not really helping me in my job search. And so the next question I'll ask is, well, are you speaking to anybody about why you're there? Are you actually introducing yourself to the people seated around you? Are you going up to the speaker afterwards when it's appropriate, which is like when they've just done a presentation, that's an appropriate time to go and speak to them, introduce yourself, find people on LinkedIn after the event. I think now, environmentally, it's not as kosher to bring actual business cards. When I started recruiting, we had our business cards on us at all times. I think we're more of a digital environment now, which is great, because it saves the paper. But going on LinkedIn, if you meet somebody that's next to you at the latest women in development luncheon, go look them up. Email them. Say, I'm so nice to meet you. Let's stay in touch. So really just treating networking events as networking. And maybe you have to start with just speaking to the people around you at your first event. I totally understand that you may have to gear up for these types of things. And the first couple of times you do it, you may only be able to speak to a few people just to get your feet wet and to get used to it. I think once you've been to a few events, you'll realize you can talk to anybody. Everybody wants to talk. That's why they're at a networking event. If you're on a board with the other board members, speaking them about what you do for a living, what your goals are, as it flows naturally in the conversation, we were talking about before the digital doors were open, finding the appropriate times to speak to people, especially high profile people. The good thing about networking events is that is the perfect time. That's when to sell yourself as much as possible. And that doesn't mean listing all your skillset, per se, but it does mean slipping into the conversation. I have worked at Merrill Lynch for the past 20 years. I would love to work for a nonprofit organization as XYZ. And that's what my next goal is. Where do you work now? What are you looking to do? And so it's like, even if it's just that information goes out to people, well, I know Dana, she's looking for a job. She had mentioned to me at that event, when they're talking to someone else. And then if you're connected to them on LinkedIn, it's just, it begets more opportunities and potentially more work and interviews and hopefully a new job. That's what you're looking for. I love that you said that because that makes it a lot more natural. It makes it a lot more achievable. I've also heard that it's a good idea to, for those of us that might be more challenged with this, is to set a goal. I'm going to introduce myself to three people or five whatever, so that you challenge yourself so that you're not just, like you said something so magical, the number of people that'll be like, yeah, it's just not working out. Networking doesn't help for me. But your redirect was like, well, wait a minute, what are you doing? How many people have you spoken to? Or have you introduced yourself to the people at the table? Or yeah, I think that's really a wise perspective to take, you know, because yeah, it's intimidating. You're sitting down with people you've never met. They all have name tags on. They all come from, you know, potentially prestigious organizations and what not. But I think the good thing to keep in mind is that they are in the exact same boat and they're at a networking event. Everyone is expecting to be spoken to and to speak to other people. So you don't have to be as shy as like if you see someone in the grocery store, obviously you don't want to come up to them necessarily and start pitching your resume to them, you know, because you recognize them from LinkedIn. That's why these networking events exist, is for this exact reason, is because a lot of it is what you know, but a good chunk of it is who you know as well. And what's good about who you know is obviously that can be unfair because people who have that access are the ones that get the opportunities. But the good thing about the who you know is that you can't increase who you know. And there are a lot of mechanisms to be able to do that networking events, volunteering and joining boards is a way to do that. I love it. I love your wisdom. And I'm fascinated with our conversations with you and this trajectory and how they've taken shape and morphed because of the changing nature of society, you know, the pandemic and all these different things. And we were talking in the green room chatter, even the weather changes, you know, like the brutal winters that we've had, or intense heat or whatever. There's a lot going on around us as we look at maybe making a career change. And so this has been really fun. And I think it's really helped me to understand what are some options and kind of thinking outside the box. And I hope it's worked for our viewers and listeners as well. Again, Dana Skirlock, one of the masterminds over at Staffing Boutique, the director of recruitment, check out staffing boutique.org. They are really one of the premiere organizations that just do staffing for the nonprofit sector. And they work all over the place based in New York City, but really a cool alignment that we have with the organization. Because we get, I feel, Dana, we get like the details and when the marketplace is changing first from you guys because you're like out there in front, right? And so we'll be like, what do you see? And then you tell us. And then I'm like, yeah, they told us that. And this is what's happening. And so it's been really, really cool to have you on and to get your amazing knowledge. Again, I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. Jared Ranson, the nonprofit nerd is working off camera, I think for a couple of days doing a retreat, if I'm not mistaken. Again, thank you to all of our presenting sponsors. They include Blumerang, American Nonprofit Academy, Your Part-Time Controller, Nonprofit Thought Leader, Fundraising Academy at National University, Staffing Boutique, Nonprofit Nerd, and Nonprofit Tech Talk. Dana, I don't want to leave the sector, but if I need to, I know who to talk to. Thank you very much. Exactly. I'm full of ideas. Which ones will work for you? You have to figure out that now. Yeah. It's one of my favorite topics. I love people like coming into the sector and like realizing their dream of working for a nonprofit. Yeah. And you know, Dana, we need now more than ever with the civil unrest and discourse and unhappiness and more things being identified as problematic within our culture and our nation. We need great minds and great spirits in the nonprofit sector. Yes. You're 100% right. Yeah. I mean, we need this. And so, you know, I personally call out to anyone who's thinking about making this change to come into the sector. I know I made a life change to move from corporate to this. And it's been an amazing, amazing journey. I'm better at it having been in the for-profit world and the corporate side, but it's really powerful. So yeah, come join us as I talk. Hey, everybody, we like to end every episode with our mantra to stay well so you can do well. We'll see you back here tomorrow. Dana, thank you for your wonderful wisdom.