 Hello. Good afternoon. So it's my pleasure to introduce the keynote today. I'm Dominik from Dropsolid and we proud sponsor, Diamond sponsor, 4th time. Yeah, thank you. We bring to you this year the most open digital experience platform. And Drees was already talking in his keynote this morning about how important it is to keep control of the content, the code, and also the data. And since Drupal is also expanding, it's more than a digital experience. It's a digital experience platform. It also branches out to older applications like Matic, Unomi, Marketing Automation. And there's also open variants of this too. And if you believe just like us that it's important that you keep this content, this code, this data secure under your control, then I think it's worth looking at this. We're at boot 31, so my colleagues will definitely be happy to give you a demo. And then this brings me to our speaker. Our speaker, Tavi Kotka, is one of the first CIOs in the world of a country. So in fact, Estonia was the first country in the world who had a CIO. He's an engineer at heart and he also runs several startups as an angel investor. He has a thing or two to tell us about how digital societies these days are evolving. So I give it up for Tavi. I promised you, I went to the bar yesterday in Brak to have a beer and obviously all the bars were full of Truple engineers. So I asked if I can make a picture with some of you and I got this acceptance and I promised that I will put you on stage. Please! I think you are here, at this one of you. Obviously no ladies. But thanks for having me here today. I truly would like to share some of the background, what happens in different regions, in different countries with their goal to build a proper digital society, what it gives back and why everybody should do it and why can't they do that. I mean, lots of you are actually developing for the governments. Estonia all major government portals or websites are actually run on Truple. So we have the proud users. But yeah, very quickly, like I said, I'm an engineer. I have a master degree in software engineering and information technology. I've built up several companies, software engineering companies and then was hired by the government. Why? Because when you have a significant share and then you sell your shares in the company, you get this non-competition thing. You can't compete and Estonia is so small. It's only 1.3 million people. So we all relatives. So we all meet each other in funerals and weddings. So the government noticed that, oh, that guy is unemployed. So they offered me a job. Obviously, I said no. Because if you're 33 and perfectly healthy, you don't work for the government. But they were very persuasive and in the end of the day, I said, okay, I have two conditions. Like one thing, you support any kind of reform we do. Doesn't matter how crazy it is. Full political support. Second, I need the parking space behind the government building. Because it was in old town, like in Prague, like there's nowhere to park. So I need the space. And to be honest, it was harder to get the parking spot. It's funny. I mean, very quick background. Estonia and Finland are like almost same age. So Finland became republic two months before Estonia. That's where the big brother and young brother thing comes from. So we always have to look up to Finland. Because they are North. If you're in front of the map, you look north. You look up. So we look up to Finland. But our development was stopped by Soviet Union in 1940. And we got back over independence in 1991. So basically now 31 years ago. And if you compare all those previous Soviet Union republics, I can proudly say that Estonia is most developed. Our average salary is 30%, 30%. 30% higher than the second best. All of those. We are the best in Europe at the moment in education. One of the best in healthcare. And we always ask ourselves the question, like, what's the reason? Why? I mean, everybody had the same starting point. And we are not in the middle of the center of Europe. We are in the nowhere. It's the same latitude as Alaska. So it's like, you saw the weather. I mean, like, almost same like in Finland. But and our answer is it's a digital society. The way how country was built up in both sectors, in private sector and government sector, how they jointly have used technology and push this government, the country to the new future, more healthy future. So that has been over Bodo. You need to create pain to make change happen. And the Estonian pain was that when you broke apart from Soviet Union, you basically have nothing. You have zero. So you don't have any economy. I mean, whoever of you is communist or socialist and wants to try it out in your country, doesn't work. I can promise you have lived that. So none of my generation guys can say that, like my entrepreneurial father said, there's doesn't exist this kind of sentence because there wasn't any entrepreneurship in Soviet Union. So we had to like figure it out and develop like all by ourselves. And also Estonia is tiny people wide, but we are huge land wise. So we are land wise. We are bigger than Belgium or Switzerland. So if you basically like you have like very many small towns and villages full of people, but not enough people to afford, let's say a proper bank establishing their office there. So there's not enough people to serve other people. So there was a push like please use technology, please use self service like and it was way before smartphones. So it started in 1990s. The first wave was I think 2000. And now the second wave is after 2010. So that was our pain. And it's interesting. If you have political support, you actually can build digital society as an engine. And I mean you are engineers. You understand that like it doesn't matter if I'm building a healthcare system or government system or like a bank system or some kind of warehouse. They're all the same. I mean, yeah, some of like, let's say we have a table of persons or table of patients or table of citizens. But when we look at the attributes like it's still surname, surname, birth date, address, what services we are providing, are they paying, are they paid full or not. So in the end of day, they're all the same. So and it's like, I always argue when people think today, I think I actually consider China to be the most advanced digital society, not even a state in your Finland. It is China. The Chinese system or the Swedish system. They don't, like, they're almost the same. I mean, it's not like, oh, China is big, China is huge. And let's say Estonia is 1000 times smaller. So let's say in the banking system in China includes all the functionalities you can buy, you can borrow money, you can do the payments, etc. But Estonia has a 1000 smaller country, like we can only look at our balance sheet. So the size doesn't matter. Like, the small country needs the same functionalities as the large country. And so the same goes with healthcare system, education, etc. It's not the way that in China you have all the functionalities and in Estonia in healthcare it's their patient registration and the second step is symmetry. Because it's not just small. So all the countries need to build the systems in the same way. And private sector has understood that, like, so all the reforms what we have seen from mainframes to nowadays, from, like, huge licenses to open source, etc. It all has happened in private sector, but not in government. And it's actually simple playbook, like how to create this society. And I will stop in some of them where I see where the whole world, the world world, like most of the countries are actually stuck. So very simple basic thing. For example, the child is born in the hospital. And if child is born, the money, like the mother should get the child support money. Let's have this use case. So in, like, normal worlds, like, you get your child, you get back home, then you go to the local, local municipality, like, you let them know that you have a child. And then, like, like, somehow, like, support money, like, in the end of the, if you go to the social ministry to have another application, you get the money. So instead of having a society that works this way, that child was born in the hospital. So the hospital registers in the system, new child to this mother. No, father, that comes later. Just mother, because that's technically proven. So this child was born. So then the request automatically from the hospital system goes to the government population registry stating there's a newborn. Please issue me unique identifier. Population registry issues a new identifier. So and on the same time, when the hospital now has full profile, the population registry also calls the Ministry of Social Affairs that this lady had a child. This is a system to system, fully automated. So social ministry should now pay or say that okay, you have to have this amount of child support money. But this is dependent how much money the mother earned before. It's a seller issue. So how can we get that information? Tax and custom. What is your information about the lady? Okay, coming back to the calculations. Now sending, but the payments are done by Minister of Finance. So you have to work with Minister of Finance to get the payments out. And now like this kind of simple use case that seems so smooth. I think exist in not more than five countries in the world. And you asked me like why? I mean, like, it should be super simple to build that. I mean, like, what's the question? Easy as hell, right? One of the reasons is here. So why countries can't reach the proper digital society for the future? This is my unique identifier. If there are any Indians here, this is my odd hard number. So in many countries, you have a social security ID. But in most countries, you only can use it for taxes or in healthcare. But this is secret for private sector. So how can I connect my private sector data or databases with my government databases, if you don't use the same unique identifier about the person? So John Smith in one table and John Smith in another table is not the same John Smith. Okay, let's add an address. You all know it doesn't work this way. And like, you're laughing. But this has been a political decision for basically all English actually countries. You can't connect data in this way in Germany, you can't connect data in this way in UK, you can't connect data in US, in Canada, Australia. In India was slightly prohibited, but now they, I think they're getting it back to the right track. But you can in China and in Nordics and East Europe. So there are countries who have this basic standard issue. Think about that you're building a customer system and like customer ID is not allowed. How the hell I build a customer like oh, impossible. But in most countries in the world, that's the main problem. And if you don't solve that, and it's a political issue, if you don't solve that, you can't basically start the changing data between private sector and government sector because you don't see it in the same way. Boom. So all those countries who don't have that system, they already have a huge obstacle, they can't move further. So another thing, like, even if you solve that, the next question is that, okay, I can connect databases, but like, what else like countries can do to basically move fast forward to that future. One of the issues that is still very purely solved in the world is identity. How can I be sure that behind the device is exactly that person? How much you trust Google identity? Should I be able to transfer, I don't know, 100 million with Google identity? No. Or yes. Or like from the money laundering perspective. No. That, okay, the perspective can be different. So on this screen, what you see here is that we figured out that instead of every bank building their own identity, instead of every telecom building their own identity, instead of every portal site building their own identity, what if we create the legal framework, that if your identity system is according to that legal framework, like, you can basically, like, the government that proves that yes, behind that device is particularly that person. I mean, easy to say. So basically, we force people to go and show themselves to police and get this national ID card. You have to go and you have to get it. So it was mandatory. That's actually very, we copied this from Finns, our older brother. This is 100% the same card what Finland has. With the one different, very small difference. We actually made it work, right? Yeah, no. So and we added and how we made it work was a carrot and stick always. Okay, if you come from Soviet Union, the stick is more works better. So the black line represents the adoption but like the people going and taking the ID card. So everybody had to have by law an ID card. You see it 2008 to 2009, like almost the whole society had a national ID card. You see this usage, usage is the blue line. And that difference is called CIO nightmare. Because like, what do you think, do they actually love you during this problem, this, this period? I mean, nine years? Why we need this plastic? Do you know how much money we spend on this? Like, it's not even a good plastic to scratch an ice from the car window. What, what the hell we do with this? And it's a chicken neck problem, like that you would see in your life every day. Like so, you just like sit there and say, wait, it will come. Year later, wait, it will come. Wait. And like, then you say change the CIOs. So in the end of the day, somebody will be the champion. And that has been a problem for many countries. For example, Australia has tried twice to implement national ID failed. Because the next, I mean, the cycle is longer than four years. So if there's a new prime minister here, it will instantly kill the project and say that the previous one was monkey, right? So but yeah, but that's the perfect thing. If you are in Estonia, small, just like Saudi from the Soviet Union, etc. You don't have money. The project is too big to fail. So the ID cards cost us so much that we couldn't cancel it. Because we knew that we don't have money for the next one. Yeah, so I think you want to listen to that in in in triple conference. Estonia, we have like, heavy and proud supporters of any open source and like, any free stuff. There is no McKinsey and or Accenture in Estonia. Not because they don't know how to do stuff, they don't, but like, we don't have money. And they they only follow the money. So the next thing you do and need to do, like when you have this unique identifiers, what is very important is to solve the data exchange issue. And again, like China is number one here in, in, obviously, it means that you should put push all the systems to work and talk with each other. So this is a snapshot of Estonian government. Databases, let's call it this way, actually, not there's a business applications plus databases. So bigger green dots are more used, small green dots are less used. All the black lines are actual API's between the between the registries. Obviously, it's not just simple API's, there is a proper infrastructure between that. We call it X road. But the beauty of this is that if you do it correctly, I mean, let's say in UK, you have a ministry. And if your ministry doesn't communicate with other parties, you need to gather all information you need for your services from the citizens. And you need to store them. So the passport information, for example, may lie in this ministry, in that ministry, in the third ministry and fourth ministry. So how many times you need to protect the passport information, at least four times? If one of those four is doing large a job, like, what's the value of the rest doing the great job? So it's a broken system by heart. In Australia, like we use the method where there's a rule, the data can be asked from the citizen only once. So the same data cannot be in two different locations. So if the passport data needs to be asked, you send a request using the unique identifier from the population registry and you pulled information. And it's there. And that's how it should work. And it truly works, like, already 20 years. And funny, like, it looks like a privacy concern. But and we get the privacy. But it's also a huge helper in cyber attacks. So we had the first cyber war in human history. It was after 2007. It was in 2007, between Russia and Estonia, where they tried to hack us and attack us heavily. The maximum damage was one bank system was down for one hour and 30 minutes. And they couldn't take it down because of this picture. So instead of hacking one system and getting it all, even if you hack one system and get inside to get the full picture of data set, you need to hack another one. But they are built all in different ways, using different technologies. So it's theoretically possible to hack it and take it down. But it's very expensive. And this model seems to be working. At least we have survived all the other attacks during the last 15 years from the first one. Privacy. If everything is connected, then you have a problem, right? So how can you take away the problem of the privacy? I mean, whenever you go to Germany and say, okay, let's build this all-connected system, they will say, what about privacy? Please raise your hand if you think that privacy is a concern in Estonia. Or if you see this as a concern. Yeah. Okay. I should fast forward with two smart people. The privacy is a concern. But it's interesting, okay, social outcome. If you give people a chance to see who has looked their data, this is enough, just knowing that the possibility exists is enough to take down all the privacy issues. So you think that like your systems in your country are private. Can you raise your hand if you know who has accessed your medical record during last 12 months? You truly know who accessed. Big, big, big hand up there. All Estonians? Yeah, someone. Okay. I quickly, like 10 I read from the audience. So if you don't know that, if it's on paper or in a hospital system, who protects your privacy? If any nurse can go and open you and read you, who protects your privacy? Compared with the system that like we use that you go in, you see that, okay, this hospital, this doctor, this hospital, this nurse, this hospital, that third person, or this policeman, etc. Why this policeman? Pardon, my mistake. So if you have built this kind of issues, like solutions, like people calm down, they don't see privacy as a concern anymore. Actually, they feel the privacy is more protected. Because they can control it. They can ask questions. And if hospital cannot answer, the doctor gets fired instantly. If the information is forwarded to the third person that's a journalist, jail, start packing. It's up to the judge if you go for one year or two years, but you are going. We do a couple of public hangings. And like, truly starts to work. Hangings, I mean, like not actually hanging, but like putting in jail. So this works. So you can pass this or a problem. And, okay, another thing, funny thing, who believes that voting over the internet, not the machines in the corner type of thing, like in US, but voting at home from your computer is actually possible. If you believe in that, please raise your hand. Why don't you do it? Trust. I mean, like, but you trusted it. You said it's okay. Why can't you do it? So we started from 2005. Because everybody has a digital identity, like proven by the government, guaranteed by the government, if you use that identity or any like product like built on top of that, basically core identity that goes through the audits, like, but I mean, the machine says it's you behind the computer. Only you know the pins. Like, only you have the face. Easy. I mean, like, yeah, obviously, I know that there's another country who just issued the possibility to do internet voting. But I mean, voting doesn't matter that kind in that country anyway. So, so I definitely doesn't work in certain types of countries. But but you can actually see people like it. I mean, it's a little data. The fresh one is 50 50 now. So half of the people are going physically to the voting stations, and half goes and vote over the internet, which is the best proof that if you have proper tools, and the whole the private sector together with government sector has built this proper trust in society, you actually can advance very rapidly. And now I tell you where you can advance or like, what's what's that like fancy stuff we have done, or we believe that will happen. Yeah, so we go for a couple of them. Governments understand one thing per se, and it's taxes. So how to get the government budget full? I mean, that question is not arguable. Like, we can argue like, on privacy concerned, or like, should we do a voting or not? We can argue that kind of thing. But like, the money needs to get into the government treasure. So any ideas in that field? How can we get more? How can we get like, less fraud? Bring. So we had a huge problem with VAT frauds. So I mean, companies do business. And there's no chance that any tax authority except us, we are afraid of. Even if you're not the US citizen, I'm still afraid of. So like, there's no chance that you can control the whole economy. It's impossible. Like, you go into the company say, okay, give me your filings. And then you give them and like, now we go through them. And then, oh, there's a link. Give me your filings like, let's go through them. We have later discovered that most, or say, difficult cases we have with tax fraud actually had more than 30 these kinds of links. So even if we physically would start tracing particular deal, we would end up after five years with the right kind. So it's impossible task. Or you work with society. And that's an interesting thing. Like, where society believes that digital tools actually help, they come and help. And I think, like helping the society is one of the troupes core values like so. So what I mean by this. So the head of taxing custom came to my office and said that we are losing 2% of government budget, 2% of government budget every year because of VAT frauds. What can we do? And I know, like, what you have tried, okay, we hired more and more auditors. So we sent more and more auditors to the companies. But like, we are basically capable to control maximum four up to 5% of the deals. So it's impossible, even in a small country like Estonia, impossible task. So yeah, we get a couple of guys, but the restaurant free. Okay. And the idea was that, but believe, like we ask companies to give data to the government, all their business secrets for free. So what if in every month, you declare with whom you actually had business? Okay, let's say I sold you something in something worth 2000 euros. And we both report now, in a certain date, they report to the government that you say that you bought from me, I said I sold to you, and the robot on the government side later, like next month sees off, there's a match, like you declare this way, the other guy that way, there's a match, like should like, vt should come from this guy, and we should give vt back to that lady. So it works. How the hell are we gonna say to the people that please give me all the names with whom you are doing business and in which amounts? Insane. That's the beauty. When the society actually starts to trust the private sector working to the government, it wasn't an issue at all. The fact as a nation, we are losing like 2% of government budget every year because of the cheaters. I mean, if you get rid of cheaters, we get more equal markets, it's better business, it's better business environment for everybody. And that was enough. So the I mean, the whole law and implementation less than a year. And the number started to improve before the deadline, because like everybody understood that like, now when they actually start controlling those transactions, I mean, now it's works this way that if I declare I sold and you don't declare that you bought, they will come after you. Like the guy said, like you sold to you, but you haven't reported like why. So the robot comes after one deal. And it can be fully automated. So you basically can fully control like, like if the deal happened or not. So the taxing custom used to have 4500 people, I know it's small in your scale, but in the stone, it's huge. Like one of the largest enterprises. Now it's 1200. So 70% decrease in government. You never hear that government. Obviously, the overall government costs have went up. And those are the amount of people. But taxes are taxes are lower. So and it also gives you like having this kind of information. And you can actually can start giving back that information to the market. So you see your company that okay, in your field of business, there are 2500 companies, you are performing in a PSE upper 30%. Like an average salary in your in those companies is this that the third thing, the export amounts are this that the third thing. Basically, you can full understanding like, how you personally perform against the market, particularly in your area. And like a funny thing is that like, we have so much data that could be useful. And that's one of the problems of the future digital society is that you don't have enough smart people to ask right questions. I mean, what should the church like how the fifth year curriculum like the curriculum that the person had in the fifth grade, how this affects your future salary. I mean, this challenge could be accepted. And because we have data, and everything is connected, we could solve it. But not enough smart people to understand that. So you actually go there step by step. But what is interesting is that society is willing to give data, if they want, health care. The fact that you can go to any doctor or pharmacy with no papers and like, not starting let's say, lady have you had measles, like or what's your medical history? I mean, what's the system like, like, it's all there. I mean, it's long. There was also one funky disease I my friend, my my friend caught in Thailand. This is hidden now. You can hide data. Like the say, for example, abortion is usually hide by the lady. So any doctor cannot see that but statistically, it's still there. So you can hide data. That's the true true GDPR, you actually can control it. And it has been in Scandinavia, it has been in place before GDPR was introduced in Europe. But having this connectivity gives you a chance that you health care is not local anymore. So countries have monopolized certain areas, education, health care, business environment. But I mean, let's look around, especially after COVID time, education. I can get an MIT degree nowadays without leaving country, right? So we know that like, not all the degrees, but certain type of degree I could get from MIT, even though it's in US. Internet courses works. I mean, we have seen that. Cool. Super cool. Health care. It's not a secret that like, like Indian health care is getting better, better, and like, like, quite significant amount of operations, like hard operations that usually we had done in US, now it's done in India. Normal. I mean, if I could get the service that is equally good, or even better, with a way lower price, like people will follow the money. Right? So health care still leaves most countries and monopoly of the government. But if you think about it, I mean, we pay 20% of our salaries for health care. We have the equal health care system that everybody gets equal health care, but like, you have to pay 20% from your salary. Huge compared to, for example, personal health care insurance. I mean, Obamacare was peanuts with like, compared with the money that Nordic people are paying for the health care. So what if people start to say that, okay, I will buy the basic health care from my own country. But the more difficult ones, I let insurance cover it. And I do it outside of the country. Because I can try it. Just to remind, let's keep it in mind. So another was like the education. So if, if schools are better in other countries, than, than in my country, or they provide like different type of outcome that I truly liked, I can't have it now. I mean, we can move with the family or like, we can take the courses or like, I can move the country where the education is better. But what happens then with universities in your country? And okay, we are currently, we only talk about universities because it's tangible, we understand it. But think about it like if, if, let's say, you understand that if you put your child in that particular, I don't know, US school, in some states, like the outcomes are like, the outcome is way better because like the way how they interact and the children, like how they interact, like all the ones from the parents that you like. So there's no like border type of thing anymore. And this gets me to one of my, I think most known challenges. I worked the CIO works in Minister of Economy. So and the Minister of Economy is basically only Minister in every country who is concerned about earning money, not just spending. So and if you come from private sector and you are an entrepreneur, like, so you're in the Minister of Economy. And your main goal is to increase the wealth of your nation. Okay, how can I do that? I mean, let's think in business terms. If I grew, if I want to get the better and bigger company, I need more revenue, I need more profit. Okay, for the better profit. What can I do? Profit means revenue minus cost. Okay, I can cut cost. But cost can be cut only to a certain extent. Like, there's a point where like, you can't cut cost anymore. But with the revenue, I mean, sky is the limit. Just figure it out how to get the revenue to. Okay, how can we get it? So who creates revenue for countries? People. We say people, not citizens, because like, they're also like, not citizens, people who contribute to your economy. So basically, we need more people. Easy. So I went to my wife. And they said, like, I have this 10 million challenge now. Let me remind you, Estonia is 1.3. And why 10 million? Because Sweden is 9.6. And you want it to be better. That's why 10, like, okay, so I went to my wife saying, I have an idea. We need to grow our economy. So let's go to 10 million. We have four children. Yeah. So my smart wife said that, like, I mean, I love your husband, but you know that first 20 years, or 25 years? This isn't this investment, it's just a liability. No payback. More cost. So you don't, I mean, the same like CIO gap thing, like, you remember, like, numbers up, but like the outcome comes many years later. I mean, I envy Egypt. Like, Egypt pops out one Estonian every year. They increase their population 1.5 million every year. Like, that would be fun. Not in Estonia. So, yeah, back then, I had three of them now I have four. Cutie. So it doesn't work. But like, who says? I mean, I mean, can we get more like people from elsewhere? Like, US is extremely, like, so good in attracting talent and then getting that talent to today country. There's a problem. We didn't let it do the Alaska. So the weather is so shit that nobody wants to live there. Except, except me. I mean, we used to be used to this, but okay, we have huge hopes on climate change. So yes, there are very bad things with climate change. But for couple of countries, it's still good. Yeah. We don't brag about this kind of stuff. But like this summer, I know that the UK was burning and the rest but like, come to Estonia. Anyways, but like, if they don't come to come, but I mean, like, we have fully digital society, which means that we are actually capable to serve our diaspora all over the world. If Estonia lives in Singapore, he or she can run like he has digital identity, all the service online, like you can run your company from Singapore. If the elections like just open your computer elect, like you don't have to travel anywhere like so, you can sign all the contracts in digitally, etc. Like we all do that. It's all accepted. All the courts are accepting those documents, etc. It's like, we can serve students all around the world. Why only students? So that, um, what if we create digital citizenship without traveling great because we are part of Schengen, so we just can't open up the door that you fill the application, you become an e-resident. I mean, we would be okay because they don't stay in our country because it's so bad because of the weather. So they go to Germany, but like, we still get the customer. Doesn't work. But digital citizenship without voting right, and without traveling. Access to European market. Great idea. Absolutely. Fantastic idea. Like Brazilians, like Turkish, Indians, they all will start accessing European market for us. They do an application, the police reviews, proper procedure, like if you're in a tourist name list, you can't, but like if you're good, please, you open instantly a company from distance, you run it inside EU, like fantastic, fantastic plan. 70% of our residents are from EU. What? Germans? Let me remind you. You are in EU. By the way, you are the EU. So why the hell do you need a student in residency? I mean, like, like access to the market, like everything is there. Product market fit. Running a solo entrepreneurial company in Germany costs you like eight up to 10,000 euro a year. Instead of fully digital company costs you fraction, like less than 10,000 a year. If you if you want it fully automated, so you actually buy the services from the companies. If you do it by yourself, zero, no cost. And you still pay your taxes in your country in Germany. So you don't pay taxes to us. So and you can use your German bank account, you don't have to use our bank account. And seems to be the progress is so hurdle, a huge hurdle for the people that just to get rid of that, they're willing to move their company to another location. This is not nothing new for something new. Where is the Apple company corporate it? Where is Coca Cola corporate it? Deliver. They all deliver companies. So that was already invented in 1918, 96, I think, 94. So this kind of thinking is more than 130 years old. So nothing new. And it works. There's a problem. I promised them 10 million. There is at the moment, 90, 94,000 year residence. So but I promised it by 2025. So we have still three years. And there can be exponential growth, like your hockey stick, obviously. Now you can't. I mean, that what happens when you get let lawyers do to ruin your product. Instead of saying, you can apply for a state and digital citizenship. It's not the citizenship. Like, if you can't use legally that word, you should use a word called residency. How many people in the world understand what is a residency? Maybe they understand tax residency, but what is the residency? So just like, like, I mean, simple small steps. And you get the project, like, I don't play them. Because even though I don't have 10, I still have good enough. Our population is 1.3 million. 635,000 approximately are the working age people. So we have increased the working age people amount significantly, like in like, tens of percentages, which is still like, yeah, growth gets better. But it's good. Okay, let me come back to this. So, but what this experience experiment showed, and why it's important for the future development of digital societies, there are more and more now books written, for example, countries without borders. And like, can, let's say, can I be a German citizen, but I cannot run my company from another country? Yes, proven. Okay, as Tony is so small, that, politically, it's quite easy to kill us on EU level. So if we come out with a reform that everybody believes, for example, we have pushed a digital signature, I think more than 15 years in EU commission, like still not happening in EU in a proper way. It's very easy to kill us. Let's say if this comes truly big, the other countries will find a method to just smash it. But what now, what if somebody who's already big, does it? I don't know. Like India, can you screw with them? They don't care. I mean, they can handle it. And it doesn't mean that like, you have to serve like Europeans, like there are many countries around India that would love to, like have access to the market and work in the market. India is advancing in the digital field so rapidly that it's enormous. Like fantastic. Total enemy, there's reforms. And I think about it like, if healthcare is location independent, education is location independent, to education location, business is location independent. Who needs location? So you can start creating total different type of communities. And also those kind of communities like where, let's say Silicon Valley dreams about that, what if we, I mean, what if we create our own country? I mean, seems to be impossible dream, but what you need for a country? It used to be land. But there is actually a member in United Nations that doesn't have land. It's a homework like to figure out like which country it is. But I mean, what if all the people create their own like, community is so strong, so big. I mean, they always like one of the examples we use is like Jews, before the country of Israel was born. They were in St. Petersburg in Moscow in New York, Jews were everywhere. They survived as a nation, even though they bought services from different countries. So the same here, like, if the society, some kind of ecosystem becomes so strong, that they would want to be independent in certain field, doesn't have to be everything. I mean, like, if I'm an Estonian in New York, and if there is a red like, I still stand and wait, like an idiot because everyone else is passing like, but like, in my country, it's illegal. So I stand. So I obey your rules, I obey your orders, like I act as like your society demands, but on the same time, I can create my own society. And this brings to the very interesting challenge, or like thinking, what happens with businesses? I mean, Spotify is a great Swedish startup. Fantastic. We have very like one of the singers in Estonia, I truly love like a remarkable artist. I asked him like how much money he has got from Spotify during last seven years. I mean, he has uploaded his music there like, and he said during last seven years, even though he's super popular in Estonia, from Spotify, he got 150 euros. Not 150,000, but 150 euros. So every day, 60,000 songs are uploaded to Spotify, 60,000 songs are uploaded to Spotify. And Edgier only gets money. So how the hell this structure works? I mean, for the most, for the 99.9% of musicians in the world, Spotify is not an income. They can't get money from there. It's broken. But what's the alternative? Apple music? Same. There's no alternatives. Like, just have to live that streaming is not the business for artists. Okay. Booking.com. Love it. I mean, so simple to book like your next department or hotel. Love it. They dig 30% of every booking. If you add government tax on top of that, which is like income tax like 20%, like how much money the owner keeps? So the question is like, like those models where super smart people have done incredible job. And he, I mean, they take the figma exit now, they build a great tool, they exited with 20 billion. And they said in their statement that it was all because of community, because you helped us to develop this tool to the absolutely perfect. And that's why Adobe app ordered with 20 billion. Thank you. How much you get? Go back to the community. There's a barankas. Zero. So what the hell are you talking about? I mean, capitalism is good. I love capitalism. Like, and I already said, socialism bad. Socialism doesn't work. The question is like, is there something? Is there something on top of that? Can we mix capitalism with socialism somehow? I mean, what if figma people would actually gave from that 20 billion to get that with investors, like figma founders and investor and employees? What if they actually would give 2 billion to the community that actually helped? I mean, if you have 120 million, or you have 100 million, what's the difference? Right? What if all the artists who doesn't benefit from Spotify actually take away their music from there and only keep a couple of singles. They make the best songs. Because like, from every artist, we love a couple of songs. And I will keep them. So you love my music, I will keep all my favorite ones are there. But all everything else, no way. Because like, why should they keep it there? Because I got 150 euros for 7 years. What if everybody does that? How it affects Spotify? What if like booking.com is not used anymore by the hotel owners, and they actually form their own booking.com also doesn't work, has been tried. Doesn't work because if you're the only two community based business, there are several examples already in taxi industry, etc. where like, somebody needs to take the responsibility. There has to be a founder or founding team, something that basically takes a risk. Because if you don't like it, you as a driver or you as a hotel, you can always move away. But like, somebody needs to take a risk. But you need to critical mass. So I believe that there are like, like other ways how future policies work. So for example, if you think this way, what if community would be your co-founder? They are, let's say, you have like two founding partners in Google, but the third one is community. So we all start with 30, 30, 30. I mean, make investors in and be all deluded, but community always is there. It's booked. I mean, you can't just give it out because like, who's your community? But it's booked. And if you do something good for the business, you get a piece of that. And that way you, the community owns out their fair share inside the company, inside the company. Different model, different way. And I think that's like one of the most interesting trends at the moment, that is not affected in any government, like public government system or unique identifiers or system talking each other. That the fact that the equity is still only shared between founders, investors and employees. Employees get options. And you can't basically hire in IT field without giving options anymore, right? So this model works. But to get any kind of business up and running, it doesn't matter how small you are. You need others. You need your community. You need your customers, your helpers, partners, even your mom might be useful in some cases. Like Bill Gates case, for example. Was it? Mother was in the IBM board, something. Okay, different story. Sign here. And think about it. Think about the things that if digital, like, it needs both sides. It needs private sector and government. If they work together, if they build the baseline in a proper way. And currently, I see this, there has been a proper way in my country, in China, in Singapore, China with a small thing. Like, in Estonia, the people control the data in China. Like the government controls the data. But this is just one parameter, you know, in IT terms, like, but systems are the same. So but if we do that, your competitive capability against next other countries is so much larger. The way how like, like, how can you improve your health care quality, how you could improve your education quality, and how can you keep taxes down? We don't have company income tax in Estonia, zero. Until you keep the money in the company, you don't have to pay tax. Nothing. Why? Because by OECD report, we had the best tax collectors in the world. So if everybody pays what needs to be paid and fairly, like, you don't have to add new taxes, we don't have to increase taxes. If you're efficient, yes, there will be a time where we have to do something. But at least last 31 years, we haven't had company tax, VAT tax, not VAT I have like the income tax. Interesting. And you can start develop new communities, small ones, or even countrywide. That was my speech about the future. Thank you. I understood there won't be any questions. So I don't know, even if I sit or not. There will be questions. So hi, everybody. I'm Janne. I got Tavi here and I'm glad that he actually delivered. So the I was thrilled about the about the session. And there's surprising many questions from the from the app. Or not maybe surprising because this tech conference. But is there any guys actually please don't go because it seems to be that we will have another group photo indent from the balcony to those this site. Like it was just told me by the organizers. Yes, so we will have a group photo when the questions and answers are over, then kind of turn around 180 degrees. And then the photo will be taken. So are there any live questions? This body has here. Let's have a mic. So first of all, thank you very much. Very interesting. I come from Iceland. And I think that we are one of these countries that are pretty far in in these terms. But what we are having in Iceland is issues with accessibility and being so you know, ready. So now everything happens through your phone, you can just like have your driver license, you don't have any cards anymore. And how is this? Like, you know, if you think about the elderly people or the people who are have disabilities, they can't really use these things that we are just trying, you know, how is this in Estonia? And what's what are you trying to do there? Yeah, this is actually a question I always get when I do this kind of speech in Scandinavia, that always the first one. What about the elderlies? And it's sad to say, but Estonians have a very arrogant answer to this. What about them? We don't care. I mean, I don't get me wrong, we truly care. But the fact is that the thing that like, I mean, whoever has built IT systems, you always fail with your product or with your application, if you want to solve everybody's problem, right? So you have to do compromises. And one of the compromises you need to do whenever you introduce something totally new is that let's remove the extreme, let's call them extremes. So the fact, for example, that like mobile screen might be too small for elderly people doesn't mean that you shouldn't develop a service that fits for the mobile device. So our approach has always been and it has been proven successfully, that whenever we start with a new project, since the beginning, it's agreed, we only do the 80%. So we don't solve it for everybody. We solve it for 80%, then that 80% will help them their elderlies because like, like you go to Ukraine and you help. And then they basically, I'll say, they accept it later. So for example, e voting in 2005 was some kind of hippie and youngster thing. Now elderly people are using e voting more than youngsters. Why? I mean, officially, they care about more like, like the country and they vote. I mean, every country has a problem that youngsters don't go to the voting. Like so, that's why I think the reason is but like, today we have studies that shows that like e voting is not this criminal, like so elderly people don't do that. They do even more. But you have to start with some groups and then move further. So that's your answer. Very good. Then there's a question from the audience that how to prevent the government becoming authoritarian and then abusing the system? Oh, yeah. Very good question. I don't know. I mean, like, we have seen so many countries being perfect and then also again falling back. So I mean, one country I truly love Georgia, for example, like so, I mean, I don't know. But again, it's a question like, what then you can actually say, digitalize and what you can't. Like, for example, like, if you have this kind of potential problem, like, forget the voting, but I don't know, Sweden or Finland or, or, or Norway or Iceland, you could do it. Because the values are different, like the way how the society is built is different. So yeah, everything doesn't fit for everybody, definitely. And I don't have to answer. I mean, if I would know the answer, I mean, would there be any war in Ukraine? I have a continuing question. And then we take the person there. So what do you think about if there would be a kill switch in the system, that if there would be a situation that the government, the democratic government is overthrown, then somebody could sort of reset the system? Yeah, it's just like, I mean, we all know that the biggest cyber threat is not hacks. Biggest cyber threat is people. So if you have insider, like, that's the one you it's hard to fight against. So again, like, if you have, like, I mean, what happened happens, what's the problem problem with killing switch is I wrote my PhD about data embassies, embassy of data. So because after Grammy events, you have to understand, like, how can we survive as a nation, even if the country is occupied? So what if the, I mean, it's done has been occupied every century since the beginning. We had the original original settlers. But every century, there has been like, sweets, Germans, German, Russians, no, things, but like poles and like others. Not yet. Yeah, not yet. Yeah. So for it's not for us, it's not a question if it's always a question when and if if your country is fully digital, you don't have paper fallback anymore. So how you protect those assets? So for example, one of the first reforms we did in 1992 was property form. So government restored the property situation what was before occupation. So any of your grandfather or grandmother, for example, had a farm before occupation, but the new power took it took it away. Then it was given back. You just had to prove that it was yours before that. But you have like old books and I can materials for this. Now if everything is digital, it's even better. Like data embassies are basically imagine like physical embassies in the world, you know that there's a US embassy in Prague and Swedish embassy here, etc. And now figure they think that in, let's say, one of the check data centers, there's an iron cage. And inside iron cage, the computers is actually estonian embassy. So nobody can enter that. And you have to protect it in the same way like you protect the US embassy, for example, here. And this way you can basically, you don't need a kill switch. You know that this is temporary. And in future, you can restore it, even if it takes 100 years. Like, so that's, you have to have a fallback outside of the hands of the government. But if you want to read it like data embassies, yeah, articles about scientific articles about this are published. So please read. Okay. Thank you for your presentation. It was truly eye-opener for me. My only question was at the screenshot from the public social medical insurance interface that that you showed earlier with the family doctor name on the top left corner. Yeah. This one, my single question. Is this interface available in Estonian language as well? Yes. Okay. Probably you just switched the language for the screenshot to make us understand. Yeah. Okay. That's a nice gesture. I was just really curious that if it's translated to Estonian, probably. No, it's like, I don't know, it's if you log into there, you can choose either Estonian Russian or English as a language. So it's not Google Translator, it's official support. And sadly, it's not triple. So it's shit. I mean, data is good, but looks like shit like so. Yeah. But what is important here is the managing access to your health data. That's super important thing. Most of us don't care. They just want to get treated. And like if you want second opinion, you call another doctor in the other hospital and they open it up because you have allowed and they give you a second opinion. Super cool. And if I if my friend, not me, but if my friend has a funky disease from Thailand, like your car, life goes on. Fantastic. Okay, next question. There's question from the from the app and then then we go back to the audience. So how does the Estonian government make money from these are in residence if they don't pay taxes? They still pay taxes, because, for example, if they hire a local employee, they pay taxes. If they do transactions that include VAT tax, they pay taxes. So there are like many ways how to get like income from the from the from the residence. So so it doesn't have to be like, like this tax haven't, it's not a tax haven't. So if you want tax haven't, like, go to Caribbean, like, so this is not tax haven't. This is about access and efficiency. Run your company with 10,000, run your company 1000. How many taxes you just saved? 9,000. But you still pay the same tax to the country. You anyway should pay the tax in Germany, but now you have 9,000 more. You see the benefit. Become an e-resident. Come to me, my people. So I have a question follow up to but this question because this is actually a problem we had in Iceland that elderly and disabled people were excluded from the electronic implementation. In order for them to be able to sign up, they need electronic ID. They have to apply to that themselves. And they cannot do that except with assistance, which created a barrier. So were you able to in Estonia to actually solve that problem and let them do it with assistance or with paper or just the regular way? Like, even though I would like to say yes, I have to say no. We were extremely hard with them. So for example, the fact that now the ID is mandatory, it was law with a certain date. So you have to obey the law. So I mean, obviously, they don't didn't get punished or anything like but like, I mean, like Estonia was so pure, poor, poor, poor that we couldn't afford this kind of debates. I mean, we either do it for the majority and keep the economy growing super fast, rapidly, or we just have these debates that like what if or how we can and I mean, that's the main excuse in Denmark and Sweden have always seen like so. So it was hard choice. So and hard choice was like, innovation comes through pain. That's one of our goals. Always innovation comes from pain. Somebody or I mean, E school, teachers hated it. I mean, like small numbers like we introduced E school in 2002. There wasn't any smartphones back then. Computers had like screens like this. You remember that time, right? So and now I used to have convenience, diary thing, I just write numbers and now you say that everything needs to be inside that machine that I cannot use because I'm 65 years old. Yes, I don't do that. Okay, you don't get paid. Okay, I do it. But it was like heavily criticized in media, etc. So it's like half a year period that basically the project manager and the minister needs to survive. Or die has happened. Next question. Yeah, hey, Ty, thank you very much. That was very interesting. So and my question is quite simple. So in Ukraine, we are using a kind of application where you're keeping all your documents or your passports, the driver's license, birth certificates, everything in one application called dia. And what about the story and ID? So does it somehow coincide with it or whatever? Could you specify on it? I have heard that they want to import import that software to sternum. I hate idea. I mean, it's what I mean, teach societies is not about documents anymore. It's only about information. So the fact I mean, like, like more and more countries now get rid of driving license. Okay, they don't get rid of them, but you don't have to carry them with you because the police has the information in the system. So I need driving license only when I'm outside of the country, because I need to rent a car or something, then I need that. But in Estonia, I never carry a driving license already more than 10 years. So why I need a passport, like inside European Union, traveling without the passport, we don't need the national ID card is enough. But I still have to show it. I don't know, in the border of UK. But like inside, we don't need that. We have Schengen and everything like so. So it's not about documents or keeping them inside of app or something. I actually hate everything. I mean, like having a medical record in your phone, or on your card, that was a German idea. And when the card is lost, the phone is lost. Okay, yeah, it's hard to hack the phone open. But like, why I mean, like, why can't be this way that whenever you need information, then you pull it until that it stays one location, one location only because if it's a multiple location, you need multiple security. Multiple security means higher cost. It's fucking so simple. Great. So you should do it this way. Final question. Do you think that this would be possible that we would see this kind of approach planet wide? And if yes, when? Which approach? This one? The government, the sort of the whole no, no, no. I mean, never happens in Europe. I mean, come on, even if I mean, it's hard to understand. But like, I think, like, you laugh together with me, you also engineers like, not having a customer ID, and still being able to run a country. That's a fucking miracle. Imagine any business doing business without customer ID. I sell you stuff. But the logistics doesn't know if the stock actually go to that guy or not. It's a miracle. And they don't want to change that. So during your lifetime. No, that doesn't change. But I believe in this, I think this will change. And you will see that. I mean, you are the proof of that. Like you are the part of triple community. You are also contributors. You already have have seen the benefit you have seen the future. The sad part is that triple doesn't make money for you like as a community, as a business. Yes, but as a community, that's different story. We will talk about it. Thank you, David. Thank you. Please turn around and look at the