 Good afternoon. Welcome to House Regulatory Committee and we are here. We've invited Representative Pat Brennan to speak to us about S30. So, welcome. Thank you Madam Chair and thanks for the opportunity committee to present my ideas today and I've talked to Eric Fitzpatrick about a possible amendment and I'd like to run it by you guys first and I appreciate again the opportunity. In section two, and I don't have line numbers I apologize, but it's under the NICS area of the bill NICS background check. I simply would like to offer an amendment and I thought very hard about what number to put out there and I would like to see 10 I realize that's a vast departure from what you proposed so I have I will propose 15 I'm in no position to negotiate I totally understand that, but I think that's a reasonable number and it definitely doesn't, it puts a slight burden on a purchaser but it's reasonable in my opinion and that's basically what I'm offering I think 30 days might be a little too long and I'm worried about the redundancy in the application process and should a should a purchaser forget or not even know how to proceed with and I forget the terminology representative not used but the procedure for reapplying automatically fall through the cracks then the process starts over and I I really do believe 15 days. We'll get the job done and that's my proposal simple as that I haven't got anything to put in front of you but it's simply striking out 30 inserting 15. I didn't I just wasn't certain when at first you mentioned a couple numbers I wasn't certain which number you had landed on so 15 thank you. Yes, thanks. So, committee I'm going to, you know, propose that we think about it not not vote on this until tomorrow morning but I just want to hold your people the opportunity to listen to representative Brennan and give folks the opportunity to ask any questions. That's for clarification. You're asking for 15 days or 15 business days. 15 days, 15 days because the process actually can start on a Saturday, which is a business day for firearms dealers or purchasers and in many states and on Sunday is actually a business day in some of the chains. Well, actually, did we hear. We did we hear testimony that it really is the next business day, do you have anything on that. The only testimony I remember is days ago was around the FBI three days right three days could go to five because the FBI isn't even though they're still investigating on the weekends they don't release, I get to say release the information from the following Monday. I think that's what I'm thinking and I wonder if that's the same here. I'm not certain that it will be. I did one thing to share. Yeah, so you know I've got I've got this, you know, one of the reports it's United States government accountability office and one of the things in regards to. I get this to business business days needed for the federal Bureau of investigation to determine 90% of national instant criminal background check denials. And this is, this is a little dated fiscal years 2006 or 2015 but they didn't have more more recent data compiled in for domestic violence offenses. It took 10 business days for a lot of the deferred ones to come back and that's just for 90% of them. So so I will say that well you know I understand some potential arguments to drop this below 30, I would have real concerns that the 15 days period is going to bump up against 10 business days way too often in regards to these statistics and you know someone who has a domestic violence conviction and should not get a gun. You know I would hate to see the gun in the hands of an individual like that, because 1010 business days was too close to to 15 days period. And again, we're still only talking about 90% not every case. I would like to get clarification on business days. Yes. Yeah, I'd like to get, yeah, I'd like to get clarification on, maybe Eric can help us with that tomorrow. You know if we're talking business days or not. Selena. Yeah, not to get like statistics see, but I mean, in the report that you're looking at representative not. I guess that those 10 days are the average length of time. Right, so there's like likely some that get cleared up in much shorter period of time between the, that duration of three and 10 days but some some that take substantively longer, I would imagine if if so that was really more but I guess that was a little commentary but also a question about just Yeah, that is correct and just for the record, this report is on our page. It was put under my name I believe yesterday. Any other questions or if I may Madam chair. Sure. I'm, I'm thinking on the, the 15 days and the in the business day aspect if you had. Unless I'm missing something if you had 10 business days to work with that would give you a five the 15 days would actually give you a five day cushion. And would only encompass the first weekend I believe so would give you, I don't know maybe I'm missing something I got a little head cold here going on so little fuzzy but I would say because, because what we're talking about is only 90% of the of the of the cases, you know, I would want to see a cushion in the other end to try and capture that that additional 10%. So, so I'm thinking it needs a cushion on on the other end. So that's where I'm worried about the drag towards not enough days if we just do days and not business days. And so, so again, your amendment is going to say 10 or 15 days. Well, if we were going to go business days I would, I'd like to see this pass obviously that's why I'm here. And that's at your mercy obviously so I would, if we're going to go business days I would like to do 10 business days, if we were going to just go days, I would like to do 15 I wasn't aware to be honest with you that background checks weren't conducted on the weekend because I always thought was an automated line I've watched it being done at a dealer before, and it's an automated line and I just, I don't know that it's. Disconnected during the weekend. I'm not sure I could check on that. The reason I said that is for remember right we heard some testimony that the the three days can actually turn into five if it encompasses the weekend. So that's that's why I said that. Because of that testimony I was under the impression that that something didn't happen on the weekend, I guess, where it could be extended into the up to the five days. Good. So I'll just know that you know, so yeah the the regular background check and again 97% of these don't go through the regular background check it's all automatic. It's like the people who who going on a Saturday, walk out with their gun after going through the process, you know, in short order. Yeah they don't turn off the computer so background checks are happening on Saturdays are happening on Sundays. It's when something gets flagged or something is. And I just mentioned that that's where you need a body in an office to check something and that's where the delay comes where if the automatic check couldn't be completed and you needed a human being to follow up that's where the the land a weekend or holiday would occur. So my answer to that would be, and I'm, this is just me I'm thinking that if it couldn't be completed. I would say on a Saturday, then by Monday. I guess I got it back up if it was if it was the call was connected and it was decided that it couldn't be. If it was located on a Friday say, and it carried into the next week, then there we are where it's going to get done in that week I would assume one where the other and if it didn't, it would be another 10 days from there, which personally I think is is plenty of time. I make any sense. I guarantee to capture all of us within that channel 15 days anyway. Yeah. We're at 97% now, I heard and I think another, another 1012 days added on to the, the three is is going to capture 2.9% of the 3% that's left. We're off the top of my head no science behind that but just a thought. Yeah. So, I'm curious what you know about the voluntary voluntary appeal. It's a BIF application. And as it states, actually in this document that the process, it allows applicants to request the next maintain information about themselves and the BIF to prevent future erroneous denials or extended delays of the transfer of a firearm. So, if you have an individual who doesn't get cleared in 30 days if that's what we're talking about there there is this other avenue for those diminishing number of people presumably that when you get to towards 30 days for them to be able to address this issue. So I mean, have you heard of that particular approach. No, I haven't until today when representative not presented that in his testimony during interrogation but from what you just read I think that's something that correct me if I'm wrong that may go on file once you are finally okay after a lengthy delay. Is that the way that reads. I mean, if you've run I could be even a situation where even with the three day delay. I think that's part of it right now that you know if you keep on running into a three day delay and you don't want to have that. Here's an opportunity for you to go through this other process so that you don't run into that every time try to get a firearm, presumably the same thing would apply if it's 15 days 30 days or whatnot. I'm saying that it's not an endless loop necessarily if if it's 30 days if it's 30 days yeah the one has to reapply as my understanding as well. The few people that presumably are there at 30 days. But then there's this other way to prevent that from happening again. So I'm just wondering it doesn't sound like that's something you're as familiar with but and I I see where it may come in helpful for anybody who's run into obstacles in the past but I don't think I really don't think that it affects this my amendment at all and in the fact that it's it's intended for people who consistently run into issues. I think if I had to wait 30 days on a purchase I may hopefully be made aware of that by my local firearms dealer but I have never heard of that in the past and I still I think for first time buyers and and so forth with no criminal record and just a snag in the system. If we can't figure out in 15 days. If this person is is approvable then then something's wrong with the system a lot of I said earlier a lot of the system issues are reporting issues with state agencies a lot of domestic violence of cases are not reported to the next background check they're recorded but they still admire if you guys know more about this than I do but I think they still have to be reported. So yeah that's a that's a great tool. But I don't think it affects my amendment at all. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you Pat so. We're on for at 930 so we should probably some zoom whatever 1915. So we can, so we can look at your minute though. So we could look at We need to see it, you know, it'll be in the calendar. And that way we need to discuss it in a way not to consider it friendly or not. So what do people think? I'm gonna see what's, oh, so you're not, so you long, when are you? I'll be zooming in. Okay, and you're available, are you available like, when is there? Yes, yes, definitely. You do it nine o'clock. I say, let's do it nine, so we have a little time to work. All right, so yeah, it's a nine o'clock, please. Okay. So a reserve discussion until tomorrow, I'll take it when it's time. Well, yeah, and we should let, we should let Representative Brennan know that, yeah. I mean, we're still, we're still live. Yeah, we're still live. If you want to discuss those, you know, go ahead. I'm currently discussing this channel. I'm gonna copy that, it can be posted. Yeah, it's posted. Is it posted? Where'd that come from? That's right on the blue here. It's from the FBI, I just saw it online. I'd heard of this process before. It never came up, there are too many tests. Couple of them on our, yeah, pick up, yeah. So, I mean, I just want to kind of make the decision points really, really clear on this, that the 30 days certainly it's closing, very much closing that and going to any number below that is just delaying. And there are gonna be people who are prohibitive persons who are gonna get their firearms because you haven't resolved that data, the data that I know Will had cited to it, that's also on the system, a GAO report from 2016, but that covered a period of 2006 to 2015, something like that. And what they found is in the main offense or the main prohibiting factor that extended beyond three days was domestic violence misdemeanors. And my understanding is part of the reason for that, and you don't pick that up from this, but it's from previous testimony that it's not always clear in the police records that a particular charge or offense was domestic violence related. It could be just assault, and they actually have to see the charge and such to see that it was domestic assault, and therefore a misdemeanor that leads to somebody being prohibited in any event. It said that there were 70% of those kind of denials were resolved within the three days either immediately or within three days, and then an additional 10 days for 90%. But that doesn't say, you still have 10% of whatever denials that they eventually get aren't resolved. And that's a potentially significant number. That's one point. The other point is that since the COVID pandemic, the number of requests, the number of background checks that skyrocketed. And also my understanding that I read somewhere, unfortunately I don't have anything in, but I can try to find something, show this, that the number of firearms that are turned over after three days has gone up significantly as well. Price of FBI is overwhelmed. So again, I'm very concerned about going to any number below 30 days. I would completely understand it if there wasn't this other process that may be a little bit more arduous for those few people who actually get to that 30 days in Vermont that there is this alternative path that one can take to try to essentially clear the record or make it very clear. So they don't run into that delay again. So it is just really, it is closing the loophole or delaying it and halfway shutting the door. It's kind of how I see that. So I just want to throw that out there, my perspective on this. And I'm not sure where I am on all this. I'm glad we have overnight to think about it, but. Lena. Yeah, I was just going to add to Martin's recollection of past testimony. My recollection is similar that in those domestic violence cases that couldn't be resolved in three days, it has to do with both what, the reasons Martin stated, but also I think we heard at one point like variation in state law. So they're really sort of parsing out how things map to the federal prohibition from the state level and that that can take a little bit of time because there is variation from state to state. So I just want to throw that in the mix. And I guess I would say I'm concerned about shortening the number because it's not like 10 days is some magical set number that these things get resolved by. It's just that you take people's experience of five days and seven days and 12 days and 14 days and 15 days and two days and you add them all together and then you average them and the average is 10 or maybe it's a median, but it still means there's a lot of people for whom it's taking longer. And so I like where we've settled on the 30 days because I think it leaves a good buffer for that as a safety net for folks without just extending it forever. I think we've settled on a place of some moderation but that still has a good buffer of protection for folks. So, you know, happy to think about it overnight as well, but that's where I am at present. Thank you. Barbara, thank you. Yes, go ahead. So very similar to Representative Coburn. It does seem like if we're going to amend the bill, we don't want to create the Vermont loophole which would just replace the Charleston loophole. So 30 days seems to be a good catch all. And I just would hate for us to do this and not fix the problem. So I guess I will sleep on it, but you know, and would love any other research or evidence or data, but I'm hesitant to support this. Thank you. Yeah. This clarification from Will, so many numbers, days and I think it's thrown around. So we've got the three-day waiting period and you talked of, I think it was said that within 10 days, 90% of the questionable firearms getting issued are issued in that 10 days, is that right? So here's a, so figure six business stays needed for the Federal Bureau of Investigation and term it 90% of national instant criminal background check denials at this 20, 2006, 2015. And so for this one, for misdemeanor crimes of domestic violence, it was, you know, it was to catch 90 of them from 90 of them, it was 10 days. 10 days total. And it says a business day, sorry. 10 business days. Right, 10 business days, but it's not the three days plus the 10 days. Correct. Okay. Okay. Is there any other information like on 15 days? Not in this. Okay. Well, thank you. So we will adjourn and we'll be back here.