 I'm the host of Think Tech Hawaii's law across the sea program. Today we're going across the sea to Canada, our northern neighbor. My guest today is Bill Scott. Canada is Bill Scott's home and native land. Bill is a Canadian lawyer who lives and works in Toronto, Canada. Bill worked at a major law firm in Toronto for 36 years before becoming senior legal consultant at CI Investments, the largest independent wealth manager in Canada, where he has worked for the last 18 months. We've not heard much from our Canadian friends here in Canada. And so I've asked Bill to tell us about the current personal professional and political climate in Canada. Hello, Bill. How are you? Thanks, Mark. I'm very well. Thanks. Did I get your title correct at CI? Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah. My 36 years at my former law firm, I was fortunate. I think I worked in more offices than any other lawyer in the firm I was in. I was the first Articling student in our Ottawa office. I was in London for eight years. I spent the better part of a year in Budapest when we had an office there. And then I was out in Singapore, which is what sort of established some of my Asian connections. And then I returned to Toronto, and now I've been here for the last 22 years. Well, you've traveled around quite a bit, but Canada is your native land, right? Absolutely, yep. So let's get right into it. I mean, what is the current COVID-19 status in Toronto and Canada as a whole? And how has it affected Canadians, lawyers, and the practice of law? Okay, well, we can unpack that in various parts. Please. You know, in mid-March, we had our politicians declaring an emergency, and they imposed a very strict lockdown. Basically told everybody that unless they had, you know, absolutely compelling reasons, they were to stay at home. You know, the exceptions were to go to the grocery store if you needed to, liquor store, I mean hardware stores. And there were various segments of the retail, retail businesses that were, you know, seen as being essential services. So you were allowed to go out to those. Social distancing and masking was imposed. And, you know, for the most part, people, you know, follow the rules pretty closely. The culture here is a little bit different than perhaps it is in your country, in the sense that, you know, as opposed to pursuit of liberty and happiness, you know, our ruling. Our constitutional rules refer to peace order and good government. So good government involved our politicians getting up, and as I was saying earlier, getting up and, you know, really, really taking the bull by the horns. We had daily, certainly in Ontario, we had daily conferences every morning at about 11 o'clock with the Prime Minister that was broadcast across CBC radio, which is our national broadcaster. And then later in the afternoon, our premier, Doug Ford would get up and give a similar presentation. You know, and they would, it's just somewhat like the press conferences, I guess in the States, but they would have, you know, scientists cabinet ministers getting up and laying down the laws to, you know, what what people had to do. I mean, they were very much treating it as a public emergency as opposed to anything of a political nature and saying, look, you know, we're all in this together. We have to deal with this immediately. The only way we can possibly open up the economy going forward is to flatten the curve in terms of increased cases of COVID and death. And I think the population generally accepted that. So, I mean, from a professional point of view, certainly in my firm, we had two, two, three thousand employees. I mean, apart from the fellows that had to come in to, you know, make sure that computers working everybody was sent home, and everybody's been working from home pretty well ever since I certainly have. And it's the office on Friday and that's the first time I've been there in six months. And, you know, it worked out well in the sense that it was pretty well a seamless transition there was, there was some certain we're in the wealth management business so there was, there were some bumps in the road in terms of getting our traders set up to trade properly and they needed specialized systems but for everybody else, you know, working from home using, you know, Microsoft Teams meetings corresponding by email corresponding, you know, dealing with each other by phone. What have you. I mean, it really, it really went very smoothly surprisingly smoothly. And I think the same is true of the large law firms larger law firms, you know, the bulk of the work that they would do would typically be, you know, online through the internet, through the phone. Obviously they're using video conferences perhaps much more so than they did in the past, slightly different in the case of smaller firms and I was in the process of moving house so I was buying and selling some properties and so I was dealing with my lawyer who was a one man shop and that was quite different in the sense that you know we went in we had to be wearing masks. He was behind a desk with a plastic screen. We had to put on plastic gloves, you know the signed documents. So I think it's kind of a horses for courses in terms of how it actually affected individual lawyers. But I was talking to one of my former partners on the phone this morning, and he said that, you know, even now, there's only a handful of lawyers that have been going into the office. In part because they feel that paying the vast amounts that they're paying for, you know, expensive pricey real estate on the top of an office tower they ought to be using it, but they're definitely in the minority. In terms of the general situation in Canada, you know where we are experiencing a spike at the moment, and the government is reacting to that. Ontario had 700 new cases today, which is a record. This is reported cases coming about as a result testing and in Quebec, the number is even higher. And in Quebec, they've imposed a lockdown, a new 28 day lockdown in the three three areas that they've identified as being hotspots. And they're basically shutting, you know, shutting restaurants down or shutting, you know, and certain types of retail businesses down and requiring people to stay at home. We've had, you know, a phased approach here in Ontario. The first first phase was everybody had to stay at home. Second phase was certain things started to open up certain types of businesses. The third phase was to allow, you know, people to generally go about their business in the usual way subject to wearing masks, practicing social distance, you know, using a lot of disinfectants. But, you know, we're moving back from that at the moment. In terms of numbers, Canada has a population of about one tenth of the United States. And we've had, you know, about 150,000 reported cases across the country over the last six months. And we've had less than less than 10,000 deaths. So our numbers are, you know, substantially turned than what you've experienced in the states, unfortunately. You might want to ask what our law societies have done. There really hasn't been an awful lot for them to do in terms of helping helping lawyers that the one thing that they did do is defer fees, both the law society and the, you know, our insurance corporation. So they, they gave everybody a six month, six month furlough as it were, without having to pay fees, although now we're paying double fees because that's kicked back in, whether they'll, you know, revisit that and extended further, given that the current situation is continuing. You know, remains to be seen. It sounds like it sounds like you Canadians are satisfied with their leadership. I don't hear, you know, I, I, I don't hear you thinking that it hasn't been doing a good job sounds like it's been doing a good job during this period of time. Is that a correct. I think that I think the general sense, the general sense in the population is that the governments, the governments have been doing a good job. I mean, it's split, you know, split between given our political system, you know, you have the federal government dealing with, you know, what's within their and then you have the provincial governments and some of them have been taking different approaches. I mean, for example, the Maritimes, you know, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, PII and Newfoundland who effectively sealed themselves off so that unless you have an absolutely compelling reason to go there, you're not allowed to go there. I mean, PII, which is an island, you know, had had, you know, a provincial police sitting out on the bridge, which is the only way you can get there, checking everybody out and turning lots of people away. You know, even even within that bubble, there were pretty substantial restrictions. Well, you know, you know, we are allowing people to come to Hawaii, but there is a 14 day quarantine for out of state visitors. And we're going to try to open it up some more so that if you have a test, you can avoid the quarantine. But is there, I mean, can I come into Canada? I mean, is there a Toronto? No, okay. Short answer is no. Good. I mean, unless you're a Canadian citizen, you're not allowed, I mean, the borders are closed. They're effectively closed coming this way. If you do, you know, if you're a Canadian citizen, unless you're coming back from the UK, you have to go into a 14 day quarantine and it's enforced in the sense, you know, we had some friends. And so you had a pretty in Florida that they had to go down to because they were doing highly renovations and this was several months ago early on. And so they said, okay, fine, we'll go down there. And I guess they kept to themselves. And when they came back, you know, they had to register with the police. And, you know, they followed up, they were getting phone calls every day to find out where they were and what they were doing. And, you know, with an iPhone, they can actually track where you physically are. So the, you know, the enforcement of the quarantine is, it's a real thing. And, you know, there have been people who, you know, haven't followed the quarantine rules and, you know, are facing pretty stiff fines as a result. But let me, I want to kind of pursue that a little bit more because, you know, in the 60s, I recall many US citizens went to Canada to avoid the draft of military service during Vietnam War. And now I know that many US citizens are thinking about going to Canada because of the political and social climate in the United States, not necessarily the COVID problem. So you're saying basically because of COVID, we can't come in, US citizens can't come in. I mean, are you, I'm sure you're aware of the desire of US citizens to get into Canada at some point. Is there any thought about it from the Canadian point of view or is it something? Well, I don't think anybody sees it as being, you know, a threat to our borders that we're going to have, you know, large numbers of Americans crossing illegally. I mean, you know, we have fairly detailed rules as to what's involved in immigrating to Canada. And we have a point system and it applies to, you know, immigrants from anywhere else in the world. If somebody from New York wants to move to Canada, you know, they're in the same pool as people from India or, you know, Asia or anywhere else. And, you know, there's a system that windows out who's going to get in and who doesn't. You know, there hasn't been any, any so far as I'm aware, sort of any, any move to try and restrict immigration generally. But, you know, it's not, it's, you know, Americans don't get a free pass or if they want to move to Canada, they're in the same position as anybody else, anywhere else in the world. Now, in, from the other point of view, we in Hawaii have welcomed Canadians over the years. I mean, they've been a big impetus to the economy and they're, they call themselves snowbirds. They're in the winter and they buy vacation homes and condos. When is that going to open up? Are they allowed to travel out now or could it, is there a future? Well, the problem, the problem is not traveling out of Canada. I mean, I could get on a plane to Hawaii tonight if I wanted. Okay. All right, there are no restrictions there. The difficulty is getting into the states. So, again, talking about my friends who, I mean, firstly, if I was to drive to Buffalo and try and cross the border, whatever my reasons were, I would get turned away by the US immigration people. If I flew into the states and I'd be able to do that, I wouldn't be restricted from a Canadian perspective. But again, you know, once I got there, well, and actually flying into the states from Toronto, you go through immigration at the airport here. It's purely a function of, you know, what the immigration officer is prepared to let you do. So, again, I mentioned my friends who had to go down to Florida and, you know, they said, look, you know, we've got all this work going on at our house. We have to be there. And they were let through. But, you know, I heard a case just on the weekend of, you know, very wealthy couple who had a big place in Arizona. And they tried the same thing. They told the customs official or the immigration officials, we've got all this work going on in our house. We have to be there. They went there. And then somebody showed up, you know, from Homeland Security or whatever and saw that, you know, there was no work going on in this place. And they got, they got blacklisted as a result. They got 8th, Toronto, and B got blacklisted, which means that, you know, God knows when they're going to be able to go back to this five or $10 million property that they have in the states. So it's, you know, it's really, it's really a question of, you know, what the US officials are prepared to say. It sounds like snowbirds are not going to be able to get over here when it starts. No, I've got, I've got several friends who have, you know, very nice ski properties, just on the other side of the border and bump, you know, just south of Buffalo. Long Lake Erie. And yeah, they cannot go there. And they're not expecting to be able to go there till whenever it's, you know, and it's a problem for them. Now, you know, and that really follows up on the next question I have for you. And that's the economy. I mean, the economy of Hawaii has taken a huge hit. What's the impact of tourists? And has anybody come up with some ideas about how to help the economy in Canada? Well, yeah, the economy in Canada, I mean, firstly, we had, you know, this sort of massive shutdown. And, you know, depending upon the nature of your business, you know, life either stopped dead in its tracks or it went on. So, you know, I'm unfortunate that I'm in a business that is our CEO says gets paid every day. So, you know, life has gone on quite happily. If I was working at Air Canada, you know, I'd probably be out of a job now. You know, there were certain types of businesses, particularly hospitality, you know, personal service, dentist doctors. I mean, I know any number who, you know, haven't worked for the last. I've only just started working again. So, you know, it depends upon the specific field that you're in. As part of the federal government's measures, they provided an income supplement to basically everybody who said that they needed it. You know, which is pretty modest amount, but it was, you know, it helped. And they've been transitioning a lot of people to unemployment insurance to the extent that they're eligible, but you know, they're, they're people now are getting cut off because the six month timeframe is a lapse. So, you know, it's people that, you know, work in the gig economy, or, you know, bars, restaurants, hotels, that sort of thing who have been very hard hit. I mean, I've got a daughter that works in the hospitality business and she was out at work for four or five months. And I don't, you know, I, the, you know, the, the, I was going to say that the one thing that's, that's interesting about all of this is that the world has suddenly got much smaller for a lot of people. But it's had the effect of, you know, certainly in Ontario and elsewhere across Canada, there's as much more of a focus on local tourism. Right. So instead of, you know, flying off to Europe for the summer or down to the States, you know, people are discovering Ontario. And there's lots, you know, there's lots to see, there's lots to do, but it's not. So you have locals in effect replacing, you know, the foreign, the foreign tourists that wouldn't ordinarily come in here during the summer. Yeah, so the economy is not Canadian economy, I don't think has really taken that much, that much of it. I mean, apart from specific areas like tourism and hospitality. You know, the financial industry, you know, a lot of a lot of the Canadian economy is based on resources that has been affected somewhat but not dramatically. So, you know, we're not really feeling the pinch yet, we may that may change over the next six months or a year remains to be seen. You know, you, you're, you're at home now, and you've been at home for months. Are you feeling the stress I mean a lot of people are being, you know, I mean, I don't have little kids running around. And, you know, live in a fairly substantial property and out in the country, so it's, you know, it's been very pleasant actually, frankly, not having to commute down to the office every day, which, you know, would be an hour or so trip. It's been quite pleasant it's added a couple hours to my day. I mean, people ask me, I was saying earlier on, you know, what are the, what are the things that have changed dramatically I think things have changed dramatically is a I've been spending more time with my wife and my the rest of my family than I have for the last 36 years, number one. Number two, I've been getting more sleep than I've had 36 years. I often doesn't go to bed at nine o'clock at night and three eating three square meals a day at home, you know, makes a big difference. Certainly not eating any junk food fast food restaurants downtown. So, you know, there are pluses and minuses all around but I, you know, I certainly know people who, you know, they live, live in small apartments, they have kids downtown. For people like that it's it's been tough. Particularly since you know the kids were let out of school mid March and only just now gone back. And a lot of a lot of families are comfortable sending their kids back to school in person so you know they've either been putting them in online courses. And, you know, the Toronto school board was expecting roughly 50% of the kids come back in person and then at the very last minute that number went down dramatically. And so they've been scrambling for the last couple weeks to get online courses up and running for all these extra kids. And then a lot of people have just said, you know, to help with this is all too dangerous and you know club together with others. They'll have, you know, four or five 10 kids, whatever, and they just, they've hired their own teacher. So they have teaching pods at home. So, you know, not insignificant section of the public school system has suddenly become privatized overnight. And all the whole question about education has become a huge challenge and and people still haven't figured it out. They're in the process of doing that. I want to ask you a question in the few minutes we have left about the relationship between Canada and the United States and what you really want to talk about that. We want to hear about it. I mean, yeah, okay. And we're all friends, we're, you know, we feel friendly towards Canada and I have Canadian friends and you're my friend. But, but I, we haven't heard much. And I'm just, is there a feeling about, is there a. The first, the first thing, the first thing, Mark, you need to appreciate is that, you know, Canadians follow the political situation in the States very, very closely. And I mean, my wife and I, I hate to admit, I mean, we watch CNN, you know, for a couple of hours every evening, because it's the best entertainment on TV. And I think a lot of people are troubled, you know, because somebody like Mr. Trump so completely different than, you know, any politician in Canada, who would ever get elected. I think they're, they're, they are troubled by the situation in the States, by the polarization in the States, the effect it's having on just your political culture generally is worrisome. I mean, you know, I expect vast numbers of people here will be watching the debate or night, which I think will be critical. We'll see how that plays out. But on the other hand, you know, I mean, the political culture here is not amenable to somebody like Mr. Trump, except, you know, relatively small segment of the population. You know, there are the I have friends who are, you know, firm Trump supporters. Canadian friends or American friends? No, no, Canadian friends. Oh, okay. And, you know, I think it kind of boils down to your philosophical view of the world, you know, is, is, is it a case where it's appropriate for you to, you know, conduct all of your actions with a view to what's best for me, and I don't really care about anybody else. You know, which, well, you may disagree with that is not a completely crazy, crazy point of view. They tend to be the Trump supporters versus those who feel that, you know, regardless of, you know, your personal circumstances you owe a certain responsibility to your fellow citizens and, you know, there's a cost that's associated with that. And that's, you know, that's that's more, I think, the Canadian way. You know, we have socialized medicine for everybody. You know, we have we have a much more socialized system and have done over the last, you know, it's developed over the last 5075 years. And that's, you know, that's part of the political fabric. And our politicians don't, don't seek to rip that up. Turn that upside down. I mean, they just, they would not be tolerated here. They, they are very, you know, the two countries are very different in that respect. And that that may be why a lot of US citizens are thinking about going to Canada. Well, I have several close US friends who would love to move here tomorrow. Look, we have about one minute left. What are your feelings? What are your feelings about the future and all of this crazy time and. Well, I think your thoughts. I think the jury is still out as to how this is all going to play out. I think, until we have a, you know, effective proven set of vaccines that things are not going to go back to normal. I don't think anybody here. I think people here have a more realistic views as to that's likely to happen. So I think we could be looking at, you know, another year of this or something similar. And, you know, we just have to deal with it. Well, I appreciate your thoughts. I appreciate hearing from our neighbors in Canada. Bill Scott. It's been a pleasure having you as my guest today. And, you know, it's good to hear from you. Good to hear about Canada, what's happening there. And we'll, we'll hopefully be able to travel to each other's country in the future. So our feeling, feeling that we can meet up in Shanghai next spring, which I haven't booked my ticket. I haven't booked my tickets. I haven't either. Who knows what's going to happen. All right, Bill. Thank you very much. Aloha, everybody. Best wishes from the north. Thank you.