 We are live Welcome back to my channel where we will today be discussing a winter's tale and the Hogarth Shakespeare retelling of it the gap of time. I just realized that my Books are in the ginormous TBR stack Next to me. So just imagine that I'm holding them But yeah, so have we what we usually talked about the play and then Yeah, I mean give like a rundown usually of like plot stuff which the gap of time actually does do itself Yeah, yeah, which is actually really nice because I've seen it a couple of times I think I've talked about it before that it's like one of my favorite like Shakespeare play experiences Because this is the one that was like interactive where we it was like in a giant warehouse and each room was a different set and So they like made us part of the set and then like we'd walk around to the different rooms Yeah, I would say like that sounds cool, but the play itself. I can't say it is like a favorite. No No, and I don't even think I really thought it was interesting until I saw it Performed this way and that's actually one thing I was thinking about a lot while I was Reading the gap of time and thinking about the parts I liked and didn't like as a reading experience And I think like what gets missed when we are when certain parts get translated to just reading something Is like the kind of festive feeling of Shakespeare and going to see a Shakespeare play Oh, yeah, so much of the things that can make the winter's tale interesting does not translate well into like just reading the play or just like Yeah, and the play itself is uneven, but like what made it feels like it's it's two different plays Yeah, I was gonna say like it's like a chimera where it's like smooch together, but distinctly two different things Yeah, yeah, well cuz like the first couple acts are a fellow Basically, it's like a fellow but worse And the only reason the shift works in the play is because of this and this is how they did it They moved us physically to a different room that was decorated like this new bokeh Mia They had music playing like everybody was like happy So they created this kind of Festivity that lifted you out of the tragedy of the first half like cuz you're physically in that space they even like brought us So they lift you out of the tragedy and place you somewhere else And that's the only reason why it works in performance like you can't do that in a book It just doesn't work that way. They physically lifted us into the even like brought us cake and like juice and stuff So it was like this, you know sensory experience and just bribing you to be happy they had like music and you know Purtida comes in with like all of the shepherds and they like have a dance party like they made the audience like get up and Do this like dance. So like they're trying to take you They were purposely trying to take you out of the tragedy so that you could experience that tonal shift with them And it just doesn't work when you're just I mean, it is the lowest lows and the highest highs And I just doesn't it didn't really it I think the book had a hard time Lifting you out of that like the whole time. You're just like, oh god. I forgot how well I think the thing that makes it if you think it works, which is debatable But if you think it works what makes it work in the second act is that it becomes more akin to midsummer night stream Or as you like it where like it's fantastical and a book that's trying to keep the whole thing still kind of realistic Like if you keep it realistic, there's no way to save this because it's depressing AF So like the second half like unless you make it kind of like whimsical forest fun times Like there's just no way you're gonna like lighten this up Yeah, and my book tries to do it by like setting it in like a New Orleans Like club, but it just didn't it still doesn't work because you don't get that sensory experience You just get like the word from that like purtita is like well, you know, I'm I'm happy here Okay, I Mean honestly it comes across to me less like she's happy and more like a person who's like I'm happy here Yeah The audio book you like where it's like those dickens stories We're like half of them are dead now and two of them are consumptive But we're together and that's what matters and we're happy. Thank the Lord and you're like, okay When like she's like she's like obviously going through this identity crisis Which is why I think it's interesting that they like made the choice of making her adoptive family black which like I guess like Works to like help that identity crisis because she knows from the beginning that she's adopted But they're like parts of that that I wasn't Fully comfortable with and like the representation of like the clowns are like the only People I feel like that's one of the things like not just in this play I mean anytime Shakespeare has like a very overtly like clown like character to try to fit them into again a Realistic feeling narrative because I mean you could do a retelling and still have it be like magical realism and have like whimsical elements But if you're trying to make it really grounded which pretty much for the most part these have been yeah Like the only way that that kind of thing works in that in hag seat is because you literally have a play within a play And so then you're cheating. Yeah Crazy which is why he sees like the ghost of his dead daughter So it like works for that because he's like has like a mental illness and like trauma and all that kind of stuff But this one Illness and trauma Shakespeare. I don't think you know what comedy is sir Well, I'm like the tempest it's interesting to me that like these are the plays they chose to Because I'm gonna have to like when I first heard about this project and was interested of course in reading because I love Shakespeare But then I saw what plays everyone was picking and I was like Virgin of Venice. That's like a biggie like that's a favorite Yeah, people would want to retell that but I was like The tempest the winter's tail Wouldn't be if I'm first choice, but all right Especially because like in the play a statue comes to life at the end And so I think it's it's interesting the way the book did it They just like made her a recluse instead of a statue and like they had the whole video game element, but like I Don't know like why you would choose this play that everyone's always kind of like this is a weird play It almost feels like the author is like challenge accepted I'm gonna make it work It sounds like when you like hear from the author is they chose these like she's how the one I know Margaret at would chose the tempest So like they're choosing really Difficult plays that I think are hard like I feel like I also wonder if they do that because they feel like they have more Freedom to fuck it up because like if it's like Hamlet you're like the pressure is too much because people know that play People have ideas about that play but winter's tail. They're like banging on the fact that like Nobody's like you're probably hasn't seen this one. So I can just like do whatever no pressure And I will say that this was like my this was my favorite hogar because like the first half of the book I was super invested it invested my back was so good book Like on its own like apart from it being a retelling because it does do some interesting things With the backstory of the characters without making it feel like Macbeth like that Macbeth retelling That was like too much backstory and too much infodumping But this one they gave us a nice backstory that made it feel like its own Story and then the thing happened with like the tonal shift in like the middle Well, I'll meet the first the beginning part of it too So like in October I have like a ridiculous TBR And I basically saved every thriller that I had ever wanted to read for October because I don't really read thrillers So I've just been like kind of accidentally getting a crash course on thrillers And it was I didn't really think I mean I was like, you know, we're doing the Shakespeare thing So that's like not part of my like October themed TBR We're just also doing that and it was so weird that like the first half of gab of time The tone of it felt so similar to so many of those thrillers that are like from the perspective of the killer Or like that kind of thing because that's basically like how they play liante's character Is like it's like reading from the perspective of the psychopath in a thriller Yeah, and so because of that and you see like how his own like internal motivations are working Like you it's hard to in the second half to even root for any kind of reunion between him Well, but I mean honestly like even in the original play I was like, why is he getting a happy ending? Yeah, I think a happy ending would be him being dead Please and thank you And like in gap of time they try to play it like oh Being alive is just as much as a punishment for him As like it's like death would be too good for him Which is why like Paulina sticks around like because she's like well He tortures himself. So I don't really have to add to that. That's like really I don't know. I feel like we could since like You know like his son dies because of him too like that's like the really the only big Reprecussion in the in the book because obviously, you know, the uncor the only one that's not corrected Right, right because he doesn't come back to life as a statue that is reanimated Right and like Mimi is not dead in the book like she is in the play the mighty and like You know, but so and when and I think it's interesting that she saved his death For the end of gap of time like instead of like we know that something happens to him In the middle, but it's interesting that we don't know exactly what it is until the very end it's like She knew that writing the book if she included that in the middle there would be no way to like Resolve anything in the second half because man when you hear about the son, it's like so tragic I was like, I don't want to hear this part of the story. I tell So it is it is a tough It is a tough book and I think that like this the book does a good job of it not being completely resolved like no one's super happy and I think that there's like that question of you know Everybody's still being a little left out, but I think the one of the parts of it I mean we talked about the clowns But one of the parts that was like the clunkiest in terms of we have to make this fit What the play does Is the like paying someone to take the child away part you're like it's not That doesn't like I believe it in Shakespeare play where a king pays money to have a person go and do this But I just like in the modern day like to I just I don't know I really had trouble buying that someone would do that And then like as you're trying to make it work in a modern setting She had to like over explain it like there was that one part where Jeff and cloe had to explain The prototype like how they got her official like documentation to make sure it was all It couldn't just be like a lost babe in the magic forest who grew up It wonders like you know Right how's your birth certificate and here's how we got your social security you're like oh so magical It takes you out of the story a little bit because she's like oh because it feels like oh I have to explain how this happens in the real world And the same with like the paying the gardener like this whole like rigmarole of like how Of how he got there and how he died and like obviously you can't have him killed by a bear So then it's like what do you do? I don't know They were just trying to make it she's trying to make some of those things fit and like they had There was like a baby hatch, which is how they found purdita and It was it was interesting I like and I liked how it began with the story of chef finding purdita and I thought it kind of like Which I mean I did initially like threw me for a loop, but I was like wait is this supposed to be liantes? What's happening? No, what? Yeah Well, I actually really liked that because it gave you this backstory of Chef that kind of made his adoption of her very beautiful in a way that makes you accept it From the beginning rather than like this random guy finding a baby like giving him that backstory of meeting this child and And like loving this child. I think ended up Make is what part of parts of what makes that first half so interesting which actually like I feel like I only just thought of this now, but I feel like a lot of the time Uh adaptations of older written things be it a film adaptation a retelling of it Whatever it is does a lot of that where they take something that happens much later on and show it to you in the beginning to give you some kind of like You know book ending of it or to give you a sense of direction So you're like you have to wait so long to see where this goes originally if we show them What where this is going to go first? Then we know that we're leading there because like do in the film the new one does this Lord of the Rings does this all the time where it like chops up the timing of when you see things um Something else. I was thinking of it did that recently, but I mean, yeah I feel like oh the goldfinch does that the movie version of it And I think there's something to that that like it's always like you don't trust the modern audience Uh to just like, okay, I guess we'll see where this goes modern audience Is like you better tell me where this is going to go otherwise. I'm not sticking around for this I want to know that this is worth it before I commit my time to it I was talking to my mom last night and she was like I just get so confused so easily I mean I need those like moments and like books and movies to kind of ground me into like what's happening Because it's like she's the kind of viewer that does not have any patience And we've been talking about this when we talked about like Abercrombie and name of the wind and about how like They reward patient readers, but although at least I mean name of the wind does does that where it tells you the end first You know where quote is now So it does give you that it almost does that modern thing of like instead of just following quotes from childhood You know where this ends up and so then you're immediately curious to see okay So how is his life going along? How does he end up where we saw him in the beginning? Yeah, but I think that there's that idea of like wanting to reward a patient reader Who's going to like sit there and figure it out with you and we were the play I mean they're just going to sit there until the end of the play but with a book they might be an captive audience Which is what the tempest plays with this idea that like your audience is captive Yeah, but I I do think that the when when she doesn't a gap of time The way that I read it too was that it was about this theme of time and this that's the way that we can experience life and how sometimes we feel like we're living the past present and future all at the same time And uh, I thought that that was like a really interesting Like thematic throughway throughout the whole book that she really does piece together from Shakespeare's work Because I feel like in the temp like in the hag seed It felt like the themes were kind of constantly hit over the head and constantly related back to the play But I thought that this looked as a better job Of taking those things and then like folding it into her story more naturally I must say I don't love that it like referenced Shakespeare overtly In the text I was like it it's weird because like in a retelling you're kind of living in this bizarro Alternate universe where the story doesn't exist so you can have this retelling of it But you're calling it out as like existing so i'm like that makes this weird Whereas again hag seed sheets because in hag CDs like I know my life's mirroring the tempest because i'm doing it on purpose Because i'm a big fan Right, and then like and I feel like everybody all the play all the books have kind of done this Where they'll they'll quote a line from the play Recording a line is different from like the characters in universe mentioning Shakespeare stuff. We were like So do they know about the winter's tale? Yeah, yeah, so they've read Shakespeare. So does this feel oddly familiar to them? But Yeah, so I mean I think that's like with these books is that they're not really perfect retellings, but There's no such thing right as a perfect retelling except the darkest end of Elizabeth Frankenstein That's perfect retelling I wanted to read for like october because I say I got it like last year like last winter And then I was like oh well now I have to wait till october But then all of my books were in boxes so then I couldn't and I just unpacked some of them the other day And I was like well now it's november almost So I have to wait November is just I mean I feel like november is a It's like that empty scrabble tile that you can use for any letter So if you're a fan of october it's an extension of halloween if you're a fan of christmas It's pre christmas november is just the empty square. You can fill it with what you want Maybe that's what I'll do is I'll add it so like my beginning of november and just suggest You know on the spooky side that I can but yeah, I I'm like because I'm I'm so skeptical about whether or not I like it, but I'm curious enough that I want to try it Yeah, so good. Well, anyway, but back to Actually, I mean that does make me I mean it's like christian white has been very hit and miss like um Like I love dark descent and I I like but I know you don't like um the conqueror saga, but then I loathed and despised On Arthur, you know, yeah, was it the what of your deception? Yeah I hated it So like I was about to say I'd be curious to see her retell shakespeare But then I was like oh, but then I remember the what of your deception I was like as long as she did it like dark descent That I would like to see christian white retell shakespeare Like one of the tragedies Yeah, I mean honestly like weirdly I think tragedies are easier to retell because like what makes the comedy work Um, it's similar to how like people struggle nowadays with having film musicals because that suspension of disbelief of having fantastical things happen Work so much better on stage where you're already suspending your disbelief a lot more Which is why musicals tend to work better on stage and like a book or a film is much more grounded and realistic And so comedies often rely on not being grounded to work And so I think it's a lot easier to retell of tragedy Yeah, like I feel like a retelling of midsummer night stream If like you're trying to like ground it in like real world just wouldn't work Which is why like new bulkinia Doesn't really work In the gack of time. Yeah, like she's trying to do that with oh, well, like new orleans is kind of this new bohemian doing me a place, but it's like It works in that in that like nice try And then like and I think it's because some of those comedic characters also just like Because they're kind of slapstick comedy and that works better visually and in you know the theater And that's like the entire reason they're there. They're not really there for a story purpose They're there to like keep the audience from falling asleep Exactly and so chef. Whoa. She tries to make these like real People with heart but then so then when she gives them like when she she doesn't do this with chef But she'll give it with clo. She'll give him like slapstick lines. It doesn't really play off that well Um, especially I forget what his name is but like the mechanic guy who tries to like swindle Oh Like his parts are just really annoying to listen to because it's like they're supposed to be played for comedy But it's just like that kind of comedy doesn't it misses the mark in the in the book because like I said like in the play they're there Engage specifically with the audience like they're not really there to interact with the people on stage They're there to entertain and make the audience laugh And like you can't do that like that kind of thing in a book Or if you I mean again, like if I don't know I don't think it's impossible But I feel like they need to then serve a different purpose like they can be a funny Character, but they can't be the type of funny characters that they are in the play like they can't be a clown anymore So like they can't even you have the friend who's like the comic relief sometimes But they're not a clown And as long as it is that vibe instead then it could still kind of work But and I wonder if they don't do that because then it doesn't feel like Shakespeare anymore But so I think this is where the retelling of a play becomes really Hard especially a play that has specific conventions from that that time period because plays at like these days don't really Have that kind of figure anymore because like now in like modern theater It's about like not breaking the fourth wall, right? Like you have to kind of create your own world unless it's an avant-garde thing intentionally breaking the fourth Right, but then it's like a it's like a thing right like in Shakespeare's time It was they were constantly doing that to answer yours and no hamlet is not a hogarth And I wonder if that's what you said people were afraid to do it too much pressure. Yeah, it's always held up as The she I mean we saw what happened with mcbeth and like sir Yeah No But yeah, they seem to have like just given up on the project Yeah, I mean well, I feel like she she also could have done Because the play does this the the first half of the play does feel more Grounded, I mean like yes, there's an oracle and stuff But I mean it's very like real tragedy And then the second half is whimsy in a forest and like a forest is like always the place of magic in Shakespeare plays You go to the forest for like magic to happen And so like she could have done where she split her own book into this chimeric halves Where the second half suddenly is like magical realism and whimsy and turns into That like she could have done that. There's no nothing saying that she couldn't Shakespeare did it So if you want to follow his format, yeah, turn the second half of your book into something wildly different Yeah, and I think that that's where these books are. I mean, we don't really know what the like if they If like the editors had specific rules in place for how they had to retell these stories But like I don't think they gave Joe Nesbo any rules I'm gonna say no rules But like yeah, I just kind of wonder if they were worried about like marketability of certain things or if they were worried that like If they were worried about marketability, then they would have made them choose Romeo and Juliet, Hamlet Uh, I mean they did do Othello, but uh, yeah Yeah, yeah So I think or yeah, because I mean obviously it's like they were trying to make these books read to a wider audience But I feel like only like you're interested in Shakespeare is like why you'd pick these up because I haven't seen these books like Actually marketed and you know more popular places besides in this specific world, but or it's like or it's like the the author already has a following and they're like Oh, the author wrote a new book and then they read it and they're like, what is it? People would read the tempest because Margaret that would wrote it. Right. Exactly. Exactly. And I think not the tempest, but you know the hex yeah, I Think the woman who wrote I've never heard of the author who wrote cap of time, but like from Goodreads That's kind of the same thing that people read it because Well, also, isn't the author's last name winter or something? Oh, I don't know. Did she pick it because her name isn't it? Winter's tale that's about me Well, she talks like in the she has that she kind of had like an epilogue where she in the voice of Purgates talking about like why she chose The play and I think and it's interesting Reading it kind of back to back with Othello. That's one we did last time, right? Yeah Because this is like a purposeful Shakespeare like retelling his own play And about how like the tempest and the winter's tale later on in his life He kind of does go through this idea like what does it mean to forgive and like can The younger generations like actually You know not make the same mistakes of their fathers and things like that All of the plays kind of wonder. I don't know. Maybe It depends on who you ask apparently Leontes is deserving of forgiveness for some reason Yeah, I'm trying to like in the winter's tale It kind of has one of those endings where I mean like she comes back to life, but it's not like it's I'm trying to remember how much she actually says after she comes back to life. Do you have the I have it but out of reach calf. Can you go get it for me? When I saw this play because like we were physically with everybody They brought us into a room where the person who was playing Hermione was up on a pedestal and we Surrounded her like the audience surrounded her and like Paulina was talking to us And like was requiring our participation to make her come alive. So like in the play Because like we're the ones who were in awe of her and like Leontes was just kind of like to the side So this is like a tinkerbell. I do believe in fairy I do She's alive. Yay But but again, it's like we were physically in New Bohemia and in that place We felt like we were in that place of like magic and whimsy and things like that. So then when we get to the end Everyone was super into it Like everybody was super into like her coming back to life and like we all cheered and it was like It was an audience experience It was not for Leontes. And so that's why I think that I have this like weird understanding of the winter's tale as like something personal to me because that they made me experience it and so my first encounter with anything winter's tale related was like Acting shakespeare class where someone shows her mayanese monologue just to do, you know the monologue And I hadn't ever like read or seen the play and hearing that monologue. I was just like, oh, this is must be like quite a tragedy And then I saw the play and I was like, what? What is this? But like so I think it shows that like in performance these things like work a little bit better Yeah, I mean in the in the book it's kind of split 50 50 almost like you see The first half is about her parents, you know, and like leontes like In the second half you do hear more from purgatory than you do in the play, I think Oh, yeah, and like and I think it's because at least in the audiobook She voices the second half of the of the book. So you see a lot from her perspective and like what it was like being adopted and always feeling like there was like pieces of herself And what I thought was interesting in the book is that it does she does question whether or not leontes deserves a relationship with her Like she meets him and doesn't tell him like Yeah, and like she meets him and she's just not sure she goes back to uh Well, and they also they point out just generally not specific to leontes They're like, you know, people always think they want an adoption like reunion But it never goes the way that you think it's always painful because they gave you up and there's no getting around that And so like it's always going to be like they're not even they don't even know what a mega creep leontes is And they're just like just generally like it's probably not going to be the happy thing that you think it is Right and she has this moment with the line where uh where she's like Look, you didn't want to be raised in that family. Anyway, like which like word you should know Yeah, and and so then it's like this kind of questioning about What she wants from leontes like in the end, which I think is a really Yeah I would like some I literally like uh, even parks and rec which is like money, please And she wants to know her mom Because like her mom didn't make these choices and like so but we don't really get a lot of that reunion Which like again, so like in in shakespeare's play He's a king and what he says goes and like the fact that it seems like this mega 180 where he's just suddenly Just completely crazy. And so Hermione's reaction You know It just fits better like it did feel quite forced the way that what's her name reacts in gap of time To how leontes's or leo is like gone off the deep end when she's still forgiving him and still I was just like, oh no, I would have called the cops like instantly Right because and what's weird is that like so leontes in the book Like tries to kill tries to kill them all like it's to kill zello and uh, polyxon ease And uh and after and even after that Hermione Who's me me in the book is like still trying to have a relationship even though like He's like made her feel unsafe And like the fact that plina even like gives the baby to leontes and the hopes that like It'll like make him come to his senses Even though he already showed how crazy he was like if that were actual life If he tried to murder somebody But she said like it just works better when like he is king and so you're like Okay, you just you try to make him happy because like there is no higher authority here So like you try to make him happy, but like leo. He's just a rich dude. So you're like Call the cooking cops like no Well, and like it go the cops detain him at the airport and like He got rid of his daughter So like in in the real world, I feel like he would be in jail just for doing that for like sending his daughter Yeah away He's basically like lost a baby like in real life You would get a trouble for that Especially if your your son died in the process like there would be some sort of like Lawful repercussion which does not happen in the book. Yeah I mean, that's when you're like you're pissed at Mimi because like she's at least her Miami is like dead So like what is she gonna do about this? But like in the book you're like, why aren't you like trying to find your daughter? Why aren't you taking him to court? Why aren't you making the police follow up on what he did do with the baby? So because you'd be able to find the baby, but maybe not guaranteed, but there's a good chance you would And so it's kind of like making her do like a What's Darth Vader's wife Yeah, a lot loses the will to live That's like sort of how they make her in the book when she's like They spend so much time talking about how she's like this great personality and like firing independent And then I see as lino goes crazy. She's like, oh, I'm lost in my grief I don't care about my finding my own child It like doesn't and I understand like she lost a son So like that kind of grief is gonna take a toll, but I wouldn't mean that she would stop looking for her baby Just don't Which again, I mean, I guess if she did stop looking for her baby and her dad gave her up I mean, yeah printed is definitely better off not growing up with those wackos for parents. Yeah, for sure All's well that ends well Hey, but But but yeah, like I Yeah, I just think that's the problem. That's trying to ground it in Now in the play I couldn't help being irked and I'd forgotten how much they like belabor the point of like Perdita, she's just so noble and so beautiful And you're like so she must be secret royalty and you're like, oh, yeah because royalty is always like so beautiful and so And so pure naturally noble Like, okay A snow white fairytale, right this idea and that happens a lot in Shakespeare where like your birth like shines through your station Or whatever it may be like we know that she's not really a shepherdess because there's something about her Which is like is one of the things I actually always liked about sleeping beauty Is that it's not the fact that she's a princess that makes her the most Gd gorgeous thing ever the fairy is literally like made her the most gd gorgeous thing ever with like a fairy Blessed voice for singing. So you're like, it's not that she's a princess I mean it's being a princess that got her the privilege of fairy's attention, but it's not that she was just born this way Yeah, it was like it was a gift Yeah, and actually you can't see it, but I'm wearing my uh Maleficent. Yes Oh, my mom already loves you, but she's gonna love you even more because her absolute favorite is Maleficent Oh, yeah, I get her so much Maleficent merch She's the best She's yeah, she I found her more inspiring in the movie like she was her favorite part of the movie Like I did not care about sleeping beauty Who's on my mom's I mean she loves Maleficent, but also my mom loves uh, merry weather. Oh, yeah I mean really like that whole movie is really just like Maleficent versus merry weather It's like that movie for being named sleeping beauty is not about sleeping beauty. It's about everybody else She's just like the catalyst. Yeah. She's just like a set dressing. She's not really which also is what purdata is Just everyone else around her having like dealing with the repercussions of their decisions And she's just beautiful because she's a princess. Yeah, and she's like and she has that like Like that like kindness, but you know that that gets like put as you know But as the ideal and women this like naive kindness towards people Which is why Which is why I liked that uh purdata at the end was like, I don't know if I want to Have a relationship with leon finally someone with some hutzpah Yeah, it felt like this moment of like reality and and her character Because and I do think that like the big like I said before I do think when we get like shep's version of events It is kind of beautiful But if you look too into it, it is still very selfish Like his wife just died and he wants this baby to kind of heal him Which he also owns up to more than leo ever does about how like, you know If I hadn't taken you then they might have found you and right Right, and then again like the book is like no, no, no, it was a good thing that you Basically stole a baby like he took a baby like which is worse like abandoning a baby or stealing a baby That was your options between leo and shep It's like it all worked out for the best I mean a kid still died, but you know And again, I thought it was a comedy I mean like okay, so like I always like Pick on uh merchant of venice as being like uh, really this is a comedy, but honestly winter's tale way worse Shiloh or the yeah merchant of venice is a comedy compared to winter's tale Yeah, I'm really I know we're doing that one next and I'm so curious how they're going to make Because every time I see a modern retelling of merchant of venice, they have a really hard time Well, it's another one where like the the contrivance of like Portia situation like the part about shiloh and and just like, you know Having a deal that has like some nefarious claws in it that he's going to call in Like that could be easy to like retell But the portion part will be a lot harder to retell if they're going to include that Well, I mean like a lot of modern audiences have a hard time with like the anti-semitism like like I I've seen the merchant of venice a couple times on stage and nobody knows how to play shiloh Because it's like, you know did a good job in the film in the movie Because I think what happens is like you want to make because he is both Like you feel sorry for him, but he's also the villain, right? There's like those two things and I think that's hard in like our political climate But honestly, uh, what's his name? The guy that he makes a deal with charlotte the Antonio Is it? Sonia and is it Antonio? Well, anyway He's painted quite villainously as well though. Yeah, but he doesn't he gets out of it at the end Yeah, but thanks to Porsche right So I think like that's the trouble with doing it in a modern audience is that we don't want And I and I don't know it'd be hard to tell like whether or not what shakespeare intended Because I don't think he wants The merchant like I think that shilock is supposed to be Well, I think shot his the way he writes shilock is I think not dissimilar from how shakespeare deals with Othello We're like he is kind of the villain of this story But he's like especially for the time it's written is a very unusually sympathetic villain. Right, right And I think it's because shakespeare tries to really get into The psyches of all of his Because I mean you I mean Like one of the most famous lines of shakespeare of all time is like if you prick us do we not bleed Right, yeah, you know that giving shilock that speech is like the most like anti-racist Speech that there is And so it's like how and I think a lot of modern audiences have a hard time reconciling that like that part of the play with The ending Yeah, but he did do bad things. So I think it's like it. Yeah Oh, I think that's kind of how you feel by watching Othello too. Like you're like the entire time you're watching the ending You're like, no, but merchant venice is a comedy So which honestly I mean at the end of version of venice like it's not just shilock though that you feel bad for Like I kind of feel bad for a low key everybody at the end. It's not really a happy ending as far as I can I mean it is in the like it has the trappings of a happy ending But everyone is comes away feeling doubtful and disappointed. I mean like portia is like You're you kind of suck Dude, but I'm so glad we're married now and then I mean, uh, shilock's daughter jasica You'll super bad for her. So Yeah, it's just It's like it's a happy ending like the ending of measure for measure also has that kind of like a feeling to I feel like all of his comedies have that kind of moment where like if you look too closely at some of the characters Like what's the one with step 12 tonight, which is my favorite Yeah, that's the one with like the servant who's like, I'll be back to revenge me of any place So that isn't that one Which I love how in that play like the most famous line is the one that's like said in like for satire the some men are Born to greatness. Oh, yeah For us to achieve greatness and some of greatness thrust upon them Yeah, and that's like that whole that those lines are like satirical in the play But it's like one of those lines like it's taken out of context Also if music be the food of love play on is another moment where like He's kind of being ridiculous He's wallowing It's like be lying on self-future and Shakespeare like in you know in hamlet It's like it's funny how those lines get taken out of context and people are like Shakespeare's a giant I think 12th night is probably I don't know if that's why it's my favorite But maybe part of why it's my favorite that the end of that does actually genuinely feel jubilant. Yeah. Yeah Same with what was that? My gosh, I don't know why I'm like losing all all's well that ends well has the same kind of like they try very hard Like dance party at the end. Yeah, they all ended in a dance party That's how you know it's comedy I'm like literally in the theater it would have been a dance party because after the play ends They would have brought all the clowns on the end of the way moulin ends And that's how like the theater was but that they also would have ended tragedies that way too Like after the play was over the music the musicians would come on and like play music. So Love music be the food of love play on I think that's why like There are some plays that we lose Like the feeling of just because it's like we don't have that similar Experience like we don't have that we're not like in that same kind of yeah I mean one of the things that I really like about the real Shakespeare comedy productions Just generally is that they include all of the music that like there would I mean they change I mean it's not all like the era of Shakespeare in terms of the style of the music But like there's a lot there would have been a lot of singing In the Shakespeare plays and people usually cut that out It's very dry and very somber performances with like minimal sets and no singing and you're like no It would have been like an extravaganza. It would have been like Keep those cheap seats entertained And like if we went to go see it you and I would be talking the whole time It's like, you know, it's not like now where it's like they've made the theater kind of like a sacred space and like they've made it I mean it was popular entertainment. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like the theater can be a little elite unless like it's a Perfect or like an avant-garde theater that is trying to undo that But even that is so consciously trying to do the opposite that it's still elite And you're like it's an elite farmer like oh, we are participating now. It's not just like having a good time Which is why again, I liked this version of the winter's tale But I saw because it was it was like a student production And it was like a guy's thesis project and it was like His whole project was like I want people to be like and he understands he was like the winter's tale He's like these plays can be so boring So his answer to that was physically moving people So that they wouldn't and like feeding us cake It's like how do I make this not boring Shakespeare we like to think understands the human condition But this guy with the give them cake and they will enjoy the show. He really gets at the core of what makes humans tick And that's what he talked about. He was like I need to move them around because if they just sit there for four hours So kind of be bored. I need to give them cake. I need to give them a dance party And I think the productions nowadays that come the closest to giving you that kind of vibe of like Oh, this is a good time Is when they do the like Shakespeare in the park kind of like outdoor kind of thing that makes it feel less like this somber Quiet it's more like you can't control the noise in a park anyway. So it feels more like It's not like this sacred sacred space and like some of Shakespeare's plays were written for darker theaters Like I think a fellow was written for the blackfriars theater Which was like dark and like the tempest was written to Basically use special effects. Like that was the whole point of the tempest It was like, hey, there's more special which why the royal Shakespeare company production I appreciate how much they relied on special effects to make it a spectacle because like if you don't do that The actual play is like pretty boring as shit Yeah That was what he did he was like It's kind of like when like movies in the 50s like main movies just for technicolor Oh, there's color now. We're just gonna make this like a bunch of colors. That's how the tempest was sort of written He was like, oh, there's like this new technology. I want fire It's like the first movies that came out that were 3d and you're like, but why is this 3d? You're like because we can Okay And I think that we forget those material conditions of the theater that there were like Certain plays written for specific material conditions of the time that like, you know I mean Not everything Shakespeare did was like for this a thematic reason Why did Shakespeare choose to put this line here? Like, yeah, because there could be a special effect to go with it That's why He thought it was gonna be funny. He was gonna engage the audience in some way and so I think it's like almost like the plays are accidentally smart but But I mean there were times like they are serious players So like that they're not gonna have that spectacle So yeah, like it's not like Shakespeare wasn't trying to like make points and be clever But it's not I mean I feel that way just nearly about all literary criticism We're like, yes, authors do try to say things and they can be very clever, but like not everything Means something Like sometimes they just wanted to use the thunder sound because it was cool and people loved it in the theater That thunder was cool Or like I mean there's a lot of times when like maybe it ends up being clever But to think that Shakespeare intended every single one of those facets of meaning is extremely unlikely So like I know like when I interviewed to Abercrombie and he'll like talk he talked about how It's hard to remember what you intended and what people have read into it and been like so clearly He's commenting on blah, blah, blah, blah, and he's very clever. He's like, oh, yeah That's totally what I meant to do so like You can inadvertently kind of put things in a way that like maybe Consciously like the symmetry of it just kind of sounded good to you And then when people Pick it apart and explain why this functions as the entire thesis you're like, oh, it's like Loki does Look what I did So I feel like a lot of Shakespeare some of which certainly I'm not gonna say he like entirely blindly just like Came up with stuff that was accidentally deep, but some of it. I think is accidentally deep Well, yeah, because I mean he's also writing these in a very short time Like he wrote Hamlet during like, you know, when the plagues had shut down the theater We learned from kovat. You just get a shut in and you just start writing plays But like a lot of these plays were written very quickly And you know, you were also writing for actors Like, you know, you had a specific actor in mind when you were writing Romeo And you're like, oh, well he plays this character type really well It's like how Tim Burton chooses films for Johnny Depp Yeah Exactly and now you write a little bit for the actor that's on stage and then I think that we forget that like Shakespeare was a collaborative experience as well because it's not like the actors would just like Happily do everything that Shakespeare wanted. They also had their Opinions like it's I think it's a very naive to think that an actor never changed a line or like an actor You know spoken like reword it in a way that made sense for their character I mean, it's like I think it's silly to think that they didn't because they were the stars of the play It's not like back in the day people were like, oh, I have to go see Shakespeare's new play It was like, no, I like I do I know that you said before why you haven't but We have to watch Shakespeare and love together for those moments where like He's interacting with the cast and the cast have their thoughts about this whole thing And like I just I mean Ben Affleck is hardly in it But just like when he shows up and is like he knows he's a star Where's the new play? He says what is the play and what is my part? And what do you know finds out that he dies in the play and he's like I die and he's like It's such a death that it's just he's like Okay, I guess Well, that's like in stage beauty when it became about like how well you died like people came Like I think that we are a very sensitive culture to to death especially And so I think tragedy hits us a certain way whereas like as in state beauty shows that there was like a way that you performed Death and if you did it really well People like loved you for it like at the end they were and it wasn't until later where it became more emotional Yeah, well, I mean a lot of what the theater did was like a Everybody understands the sign language of theater where like this represents death this represents Femininity and so it's very representational rather than like a lived experience that you're observing. Yeah. Yeah So it was a very different Like physical experience when you are an audience member And I think that we have a hard time kind of placing our modern experience in that context because it's so different We we just like we can't and like it wasn't really the craft of acting Like you said was more about like gestures and like this is what you know, certain things mean But it wasn't really about like Character studies the way it is now and like back I know more like silent film was Yeah, and like back then you also didn't get like a whole script. You only got like your lines So you only knew like when you entered and exited so it's not like you even like So that's why you had the clown the guy that played the clown every time And he would go out and only play his part and like how he played it and he would only play his part How he usually played it and then you know, he would do the same for the next play Like when you get Jeff black in a movie and he just does what he does You sign him up for that right let him do his thing So it's not like the clown is even like thinking about how he's like thematically working in the play as a whole He's just going out and like even Shakespeare is not really thinking about how thematically like and here's the part where we Send him out to entertain the audience And most of the time the clown is going to be like ad-libbing his part anyway like gotta have a dog Yeah, if we don't even get the real the real like how it would have performed back then because some things were just like ad-libbed on stage and All that all that kind of stuff and like the way that we have Shakespeare's works now is because like actors went to the you know the printers and we're like, I think this is how the play went We could trust them Which is why we have four different versions of Hamlet and like four or five different versions of Romeo and Juliet Because it's like the actors just went to the printer afterwards and was like Yeah, I think I think this is how If I remember correctly, so There's something yeah, it's so funny how like how aggressively Dogmatic and pedantic people can be about Shakespeare when it was just kind of like on the fly chaos when it was actually being done Like there are some versions of Romeo and Juliet that don't have the balcony scene Which is like become iconic, right for how those versions are wrong Yeah And so it's like somebody like I mean if you study like textual editing Somebody decided that this is what Romeo and Juliet was going to be Canonically and then everyone was like, yeah, this is Romeo and Juliet when like really it is now now And yeah, and like Shakespeare Was like decided in the 18th century to be like the 18th century created Shakespeare Because it's like before he was one of many playwrights a popular one But he was one of many and in the 18th century it was like no Shakespeare is ours. Oh god And they kind of like made him Shakespeare It's kind of like I mean it's made up Columbus like like most people hated Columbus for a really long time But then like the American government was like trying to appease the hero Well, they were trying to like appease Italy. They're like, well, just make Columbus a hero to like Help our relationships with Italy and then so Fun history facts Should have done this on Columbus Day. I know right I mean we look at we need like a drunk session where we like drunk and do our drunk Shakespeare history We're just going to devolve into like incorrectly quoting the plays Is that how that went? That sounds right My own version one time when I was in the Shakespeare class I had to perform like a piece of measure for measure and um, I was the uh The sister like the sister who's trying like, you know, like the brother tries to convince the sister To like have an affair with the dupe to get him free And nobody knows that how that play goes So I played the sister but I had like a really low cut dress on and I was like being very dramatic Because it was just like why not who knows how Shakespeare wanted that that part to be portrayed once I really enjoyed the Kenneth Branagh did on stage not um like a film but they taped it so you can see it I like a national theater or whatever um with Richard Madden and Lily James playing Romeo and Juliet and Lily James is a very comedic Juliet Like she's so funny and you never see a funny Romeo and Juliet But like there's so many lines that like because she is like kind of like this young girl who swept off her feet and being kind of ridiculous So like she really plays it up and it it's it's really really good Yeah, and if you think about it, she's very sassy like she talks back to her parents and like to her nurse and like even like to Romeo She's like Here's what I want you to do. You have to do this if you want to be with me Like she's very like even the balcony scene. So like they have her like tipsy from the party And like instead of being like oh, Romeo, Romeo, she's like It's so much better Well, I'm like Baz Lerman like kind of does that because he makes Romeo like super high that whole scene like he's high Like I think people miss that part of the movie, but he takes drugs like right before the party. Honestly every Baz Lerman movie feels like everyone's on drugs He was like on drugs that whole night, which kind of makes that scene but I think it's it would be it would have been even better if he also made Claire Danes on drugs because That's sort of how that play feels In general like they're both on drugs the whole time They're also like 13 years old Well, Julie, it's 13. I forgot Romeo's what? I think Romeo's like 15 or 16. He's not that old or Yeah, they are children Literal children. It's like Game of Thrones. Yeah. Yeah And that sounds like kill themselves at the end. Just like Game of Thrones So red wedding Which is why I think Baz Lerman's like version is pretty fun because it's just so colorful and entertaining and Wild and wilder Yeah, and I like his like, you know He's bringing in the aspect of like the media and popular culture into it as well I always feel like it's like hit or miss when I see Shakespeare like modern as I modernizations modern retellings how they'll use like newspaper and like news reporting as part of the play and Most of the time I feel like it's labored. I'm always like this feels very Like you're trying very hard to make this modern by putting this in the newspaper. This is what they're saying about you know About hamlet and you're like, okay. It's like some op-ed about hamlet might be crazy Okay It's been a couple of plays that like have surveillance cameras and stuff like that for hamlet, you know An opticon of being watched and stuff, which I don't know. I mean, he already has surveillance cameras. They're called Rosencrantz and gildan That's their entire function Yeah, I feel like any kind of production that tries to put on like one Wait, now I'm just thinking about like a modern retelling where there's some like security company called Rosencrantz and gildan stern And they are the security cameras But I'm sorry, what were you saying? Uh, I thought I'm sorry It's fine Uh, no, I think I was saying that like I think that's what happens when like you When when certain plays try to put like too much pressure on like carrying one thing throughout the whole play Like when I saw merchant of venice, they were trying to make it like like 2000s like tech company And so like everybody was in suits and carrying around apple computers and it was just like I don't know. I kind of like took takes you out of the play because it's trying like fit this one time My high school did an apocalyptic mcbeth where it was like it had one of those it had like a mad max set with like people and Which is that was really funny. I do like the I haven't seen it in a while. Maybe I changed my mind but back when I saw it I like they They did a series called Shakespeare retold on bbc. I don't think I saw all of them But mcbeth they did set in a restaurant where it's about owning the restaurant not about you know being king And um, the the witches were garbage men And I thought it was brilliant It has uh, it was it james mackervoy. Is that who's in it? And yeah, yeah, I think I I've seen that I've seen that one And those are kind of fun because they're kind of ridiculous like like that play works because it's ridiculous But that's why like jo nezbo is retelling it like that didn't work because that's not the reason there are many reasons His retelling didn't work There are many reasons number one. It was too long I'm just gonna say real or real It was wow Evidence by the fact over compensating for the fact that he didn't know how to retell it So he was just gonna make it real long to prove that he knows this play and you're like That's like, dude, you're supposed to be like a thriller guy like that doesn't it wasn't thrilling Never gonna be over That horrible retelling those are hours of my life that i'm never getting back Well, you took one for the team and I only made it the gap of time My time big gap That's why I like I think that's why like gap of time and like new boy They all kind of work because they're very they're short. So You know, you don't really need much more than What's what's going on? But I think the longer you tell it the more it's gonna feel like it's really forcing itself to be this play You need to be in and out Yeah, yeah Like like a play because it's you know, he put people too long in the world Then like the structures start to break down like you can't force people too long So they'll start thinking about it like the gap of time works because People try not to think about Shakespeare too much Just like a play you're just in and out and you just kind of Well, it's also media and just like film and theater unlike reading a book It can dazzle you and then you only after the fact like wait, did that actually make any sense? I don't know. Whatever. It was fun We're like you can't if you're reading a book you have time to sit there and think and like I don't that doesn't make any sense, but a play you're like, oh stuff's happening. Did that make sense? I don't know. We've moved on All of Shakespeare's plays I mean we've talked about this before it's like they happen so quickly like in time like Romeo and Juliet happens over the course of three days like You can't think about it. I mean lady mcbeth goes from no murder to yes murder in one night And then back to like, oh no no murder wash my hands like in another from another day It's it's speedy Yeah, which is like the production of mcbeth that we watch with Christopher Eccleston I like that they had that counting down clock Because it made you feel sort of like stressed out with the pressure of like that's a literal ticking time bomb Yeah, it was yeah. It was literally this time bomb of when everything was going to go to shit um, and that's like slow like Yeah, I don't know. It was really that was a really interesting production of I really hope that royal Shakespeare Company does winter still Because I would like to see what they would do with it Yeah, there's like when I was looking for productions to watch. Um, I just found like ballets and stuff But it doesn't seem I know there's one with Helen Mirren. I haven't seen it, but No And I think there's like a really bad like cartoon Of winter's probably they made like back in the 70s. It might have even been like a claymation It's like this like There was this series unless this was like a fever claymation Hermione leaving her child bed to come and speak before leontas But like unless this was like a fever dream I was in like a Shakespeare class once and like there was like the series in the 70s of like trying to make Shakespeare into cartoons for kids to get kids Shakespeare But I don't know if that's how I would go about that Yeah, I think it yeah I think I I I do think that for like young people It's like they're just too far removed from a lot of like the cultural Like, you know Condition that made that makes Shakespeare interesting Well, that's what makes it more of like an academic thing is that if you lived at the time No one has to explain to you what the time is like, right? But like for experiencing Shakespeare now part of it's like appreciating it is the context of the time It was written which requires you to like research and know things beyond the text of the play And we're missing all of the jokes just like if we watched movies from the 60s and 70s. We're missing those jokes too like my My I'm at my mom's house this weekend and my stepdad was watching like the Beverly Hillbilly this weekend And they were talking about like Hogan's heroes like all of these shows that they watched in the 70s And they're like, I swear it was funny back then It's like they have a context for that that we don't I think that that's what happens with Shakespeare And I think that people then like like there's a lot of uh Mel Brooks movies that have like some of it is humor That's just like generally, you know humor, but I remember like Uh in because I've seen many times probably the most I've seen that movie a ton And like there's a part where like Dave Chappelle stops to like pump up his shoes With air because like that's such like I don't I didn't understand that my mom's like Oh, well when the movie came out there were these shoes that everyone was making fun of And like that's a joke that like it was very topical and he's like does not sound a test of times. You're like Yeah, what is that about? And that's what I think a lot of jokes in Shakespeare are like and I think that the way that we teach Shakespeare we don't Teach that part like we don't teach the pop culture in it because I also just don't think a lot of high school teachers like no But they just like have to teach around me when Juliet because like in America That's what they have to teach to freshmen and and so like but they don't teach it right because they don't Understand the conditions because they themselves were taught it wrong Right, so it's like there's this like passing down of Shakespeare as this like elite thing That you have to work to understand that then which I think one of the best things that my teachers did was having as like break into sections And like translate our passage into modern speech and then like put it together as like put that whole act together as a class With everyone contributing their translation into like Modern speak until we had the whole act like modernized Right and I think that that's what also gives people the impression that Shakespeare plays take a really long time to perform And to see whereas like back then they talked really fast Like those the plays did not have a running time of three and a half hours. They had to be shorter um So people were not going to stand in the theater for three hours in silence watching people monologue They were moving really quickly and they were speaking really fast, but that just we don't again It's like the language is just a little bit harder for us because we don't You know, it's not old english, but it's It's renaissance english, so it's still going to be like they're still going to be that That barrier that I just like wish it was taught differently in high school. Well, I wish a lot of things were taught differently in american schools They get the you know, they get great expectations great gadsby and romeo and julia and every high school teacher teaches them the same exact way and it's just like I feel like we could get like high schoolers to read more as if we like actually used books that they connected with I'm friends with some teenagers and i'm like, I don't know if like they Had to fight to have the right to do this because I don't know the details Or if they just their schools were like, yeah, that's fine But they would they taught for their classes and that was the curriculum things like uh Oh The anti thomas book the hate you gave you yeah was like one of the books that they read as a class And like books like that where this is going to be relevant to the students now It's not going to be like catcher in the rye. We were like Who is this for? Who relates to this? And like and the thing is it's like so much of that canon was decided by old white dudes who like barely had any taste Anyway, so it's like I'm like maybe that was like really poignant and relevant back when it was Written but not now like five people I guess it's the problem with like critics right from like if you think about who the critics were who found Books like catcher in the rye and lord of the flies appealing. It's like The elite critics who've made the canon and so it doesn't I mean lord of the flies I think is still better for today's readers than catcher in the rye yeah Like animal farm lord of the flies those still have like you can still like get what it's saying and it can Approachable for you know today's youth, but catcher in the rye No Sorry, but no Yeah And anybody in like grad school who said they liked who like thought catcher in the rye was a classic That was like a red flag for me Like I Who's like dissertation was going to be on like jack london hemmingway and salinger and I was like That's just like a red flag. We're not going to be friends I have strong feelings about hemmingway in his limp dick books I actually haven't ever read any hemmingway. We're not missing much That's how I always felt about it Like I feel like I want to just so that I know, you know Like I want to know what that writing is like So I'm not just like going off here today, but like I don't anticipate being a fan It's probably good that this is towards like the end of your video because maybe like the dudes who attack your page Won't see this. Like hemmingway is like the most overrated person. That's like I'm honest. I was so like, okay, even though I've never read hemmingway I feel like men have limp dicks. It's like, oh god, get over your dick Like that's really like his books just feel like even though I haven't read hemmingway I remember driving and listening to npr recently like I mean we're like within the last year And then talking about the upcoming hemmingway documentary on pbs I could remember just sitting there and thinking like do we need this? Like of all the people you could do a documentary on right now in this day and age in the year of our lord 2021 hemmingway Hemmingway who are alive today. He would be one of those like gamer gate guys like about how like women are terrible like He would be like that. I mean my parents were watching it. So like when I was over so like I saw like, uh Like not all of it, but I saw like a small chunk of that documentary and they're just like Tiptoeing so working so hard to kind of like try to academically Like tiptoe around the misogyny and like well if you really read it and it's really interesting This one passage that he wrote which seems to say that maybe he doesn't hate all women and you're like Why is he getting a documentary again? Please explain The reason why he hated all women is because like one nurse like wouldn't Sleep with him It's just like Oh my god He's just yeah, I don't understand like why he's uh Why why he's a thing and everyone's I was like, oh, but the time period that he was running again Which is when like 99 of the time when people bring up the time period I'm like Shakespeare wrote some baller women and his time period was even further back Well, and like Shakespeare at least like when he's like criticized he criticizes humanity It's not like he's like when even there are like sexist jokes He makes like the same jokes about men too like everybody is imperfect in Shakespeare's world I mean the smartest person in the whole of Merchant of Venice is Portia. Right. Yeah Exactly and like I mean you could make a case for like the majority of his female characters I mean Hemingway It's like he really just hated women like he literally hated women and you can read that in any book that you And he was like one of those guys that like delighted in sexual assault scenes and like went like like female victims of sexual assault like he hated women What a guy Who knew when we started talking about winter trail that we'd end up talking about Hemingway Well, I was like in my master's program I was like, oh, I really need to read more like classics in order to be Like, you know a phd in english and I had like most of my Knowledge was in my time period of Renaissance, but I didn't really read a lot of like, you know 20th century classics So I started and was very disappointed and was like, this is why that study 20th century american Plus I mean the notion that you have to have those things to qualify to have an opinion is like, but why? Yeah, like I had to take a master's comprehensive exam and like I And I think this is why we need to bring people of color more explicitly into the canon because there are a lot of like American works that are better that are not Hemingway and jack London Yeah, like jack London is fine, but it's still like as compared to Hemingway Anyway, but it's very much like a book. It's like I'm a man. I do man things like go outside I mean, like I think uh steinbeck is still pretty still pretty good to read Yeah, and I think because like steinbeck is like aware of women as people Wow Gold star But I mean like even beyond like questions of like, you know misogyny I just think like a lot of the themes he's talking about are more like universal themes that even a present day Young person can get something out of like of mice and men like I think is still a good book to I mean, maybe it's not like better than a lot of other books They could be reading but like I don't think it's as like catra in the catra in the rye can like no But of mice and men, I think there's value if you're picking that curriculum like, yeah Yeah, and I you know, and I think that like some of his other books I mean, it's about like capitalism and like how it destroys people and destroys neighborhoods and about like You know the abuse of the american factory worker. And so I think that he's more of a Person that he's not an elite person. He's talking about real steinbeck himself was also much more of like wanting to understand people Like he just went around his life doing that And that shows Yeah, yeah, I think so too And so I think that like and he like cares about people whereas like hemmingway only cares about his dick. So His own dick not just dicks at large on behalf of all dicks just So it's like there are like someone just like the whole point of like sun also rises is that like he can't The main character is castrated and can't sleep with a woman that he wants to sleep with Like that is the narrative But again, if it was a woman's book written about a woman's genitalia issue, that's a lady's book Why would men want to read this? That's disgusting. Like that's a girl. I can't relate to this That's a girl. We have to be bad for him because he got his like dick blown off in war I have like no idea like how badly I am like screwing But like this is my impression But I'm just thinking like the idea that women are expected to empathize with a man losing his penis But women writing about women's problems. Like well, that's a girl book Yeah, and it's like he cannot fuck the woman that oh, am I allowed to say that on your channel? He cannot screw the woman that he wants like that is the entire tension of the sun also rises, but fun fact That Fun fact It's actually the whole book is actually an allegory for a real trip that he went on In spain with his then wife who he wanted to have an affair on but felt bad about So he felt like being in a marriage was being castrated. So like he couldn't sleep with like the one woman they went on this trip with So he wrote a story about feeling castrated and how he couldn't sleep with the woman that he was actually in love with I mean, he ended up having an affair on his wife and then like leaving The world's smallest file in I mean, honestly, honestly, I think Hemingway and Leontis would get along. Yeah, try to bring it back to Yes, yeah, they yeah, they would Yeah, but that's where I mean again We're like you can bring up shakespeare as the counterpoint to like most things because he writes a character like leontis That you definitely are not supposed to empathize with Right. Yeah. No, no, and because I think yeah, good And I think he does that by like at least like a fellow you empathize with because like he's being lied to He's being lied to and he's being tricked and all of his like deepest fears And like, you know, his skin color all of those things are being played against him whereas like leontis really is just insane like he is Sorry, and like it is his own jealousy and his own fears that like he just obsesses over and he can't trust what people around him are saying And I mean, I do love that like because Again with Othello, it's mainly someone egging on these fears and saying no, you're right to think that and like whatever And versus leontis who has people all around and being like that's crazy How can you possibly think that I would stake my honor on the fact that she is honest and that like you're what is this and everyone Everyone around him not just Hermione are like what that's nuts and he's like, I know what I know like, okay Both ways are also about the proof of that right like Othello was like bring me proof And he does get proof in like a way that we know as an audience is not actual proof But in the winter sale he get it's that and the gap of time like plays with this a lot Like he gets proof of nothing happening like he gets proof of that But yet he still is like so convinced Of his own way and I think that like, you know Shakespeare does do a lot of playing with the idea of like the tyrant king And about how kings do get away with things because of the position that there is also convenient for the plot because Yeah, for sure So but I think like that's at play here too. The only reason why he gets away with anything Is because he's king and can do that. And so it's like the way that royalty does get to get away with anything We'll identify with right but like people with money get away Yeah, that's why they had to make leo in the book You know rich filthy rich guy because it's only money can get it even then it strains credulity But money is what enables him to do what he does Right exactly exactly and like he gets to pay off certain people Because money can like open doors open doors for you. So But I did think that like the video game was a weird Part of I yeah, I didn't really feel how that tied in that much like I felt like I was like why why is this here? I feel like so For those who haven't read it like polyxonies the carrot the guy who's polyxonies is like a video game creator And he creates this video game that him and liana leo play In like those missing years that's how they like stay connected and Hermione is like in the game as like a sleeping figure like almost as like, you know Like when snow white is in her kind of glass coffin like that's what so I think that was supposed to Model like that feeling of Hermione being a statue And like we get and I think that we get a little bit of leo's guilt In those moments when he's playing the video game because he feels really bad about everything he did And you know when men feel bad about something they obviously deserve forgiveness even if it's like literal murder But also, I mean so obviously, okay murder is bad but the surveillance of Hermione or Mimi, I guess um And the way that the narrative or the way that the book is written from leo's perspective Like his reading into what's going on was like again That's where I felt like reading a thriller from the perspective of a psychopath where like I was like Yeah Which is why I liked the first half because I thought it was really interesting because like I mean like forget the murdering forget the like Preventing you from getting medical care when you're trying to give birth If I found out Then my husband had did that kind of surveillance and had like jumped these bizarre conclusions based on that surveillance I'd be like goodbye forever No, and then he also did murdering and preventing medical care and losing my child and perfectly sending her away and then Killing my other I was like absolutely not this is irredeemable. He feels bad about it. God. We have to you know what you can't We have to forgive the men who feel bad about the things we've done That's all we honestly what makes on so off-hello is I mean for many reasons a more sympathetic character than leon Leontas, but I mean off-hello finds what he's done Unforgivable and takes that decision away from the like audience doesn't have to sit there thinking But like did he deserve forgiveness? He just offs himself and you're like, I mean I'm not going to help see you later And I and I think too like in a you know for an audience that was also deeply religious Like this I like, you know, like to them it is a huge punishment Because like they believed in hell like they believed in those those kinds of things and like suicide Was like hugely taboo like you were not allowed to be buried. Well, yeah, you wouldn't be inconsecrated grown So like hamlet if any, you know, that's why like the story of aphelia is really interesting and hamlet because like Ophelia Goes a little nutty and like as they do in Shakespeare And like she kills herself like she drowns but like the way That the queen tries to tell the story She is trying to like rewrite what's happened because if everybody accepts the fact that aphelia killed herself Then like the entire funeral scene where hamlet comes back is like Not okay and like the mod that they're the audience seeing shakespeare would understand that like having a funeral for aphelia Unconsecrated ground would be a really big deal. Yeah And like that's what the whole grave did. That's what the grave digger scene is all about They're like, didn't this woman off herself? Yeah, I don't know why we're digging her grave like it's and it's played off as like Comedy but I think that like this is again when like a modern audience might miss Pieces of that like that's why the ending of a fellow was like even more tragic because he is punishing himself Eternally for what he did to Desmond. Then there's Romeo and Juliet Yeah, never was there story of more woe Word Except for the first half of winter sale that story had a lot of woe Honestly, like, yeah the first time I like in its entirety experienced winter's day out I was like, this is so Dark, please explain to me how this is going to be a comedy. I am waiting I am not interested. It got darker. It's getting darker. What is this a comedy? Yeah, and so that's why I think the gap of time was a really fun retelling because it does lean into that and It presents this like queer history between Polyxonies and Leontes and like That has like a really interesting dimension to it But yeah, the second half of the book just couldn't turn it around You know, which I mean arguably the play can't either Unless you go see the specific production that I saw I mean the only thing that makes it kind of sort of almost work is if it's so utterly Fantastical in the second half that like I almost come away from that second half being like so this is the part where they're all dead This is a dream. Yeah. Yeah. I mean that's kind of like and that's basically what this one This one did But yeah, I do think it's like that kind of fantasy of her being raised from the dead, which is kind of what Everyone would want from a fellow right this kind of like fantasy that they That Desdemona gets to come back from the dead and then a fellow gets to be forgiven, but Obviously What about Amelia does she get to come back? Are you reunited and forgive Yago? That's why I think Amelia and Paulina are like really interesting kind of characters because they have like a similar Although like Paulina is like Leontes like Confidant in the winter's tale and she's like there the whole time telling him what an asshole he is Which is why Paulina should be in charge So that's why but I do think that that's like an interesting That like that she's like the Amelia character But in the winter's tale kind of like he does something different with her with her character Kind of makes her the voice of reason Loki everyone is the voice of reason to Leontes who's cuckoo cuckoo for coco puffs this guy like What are you smoking no one thinks this is real only you think this is real Yeah, that was yeah Ah So I'm really curious to see what they do with the merchant of venice retelling. I'm excited I mean, I'm also excited because I really like the merchant of venice But so I'm I guess I enter with some trepidation, but I'm hopeful that the retelling will be Yeah, I need to find a protection that I actually like a merchant of venice and I don't know if it's like my own Discomfort with the story that prevents my Here I do not like the film with the Jeremy Irons and Al Pacino You know, I've seen part of it like I know I saw part of it in the class So maybe I just need to watch it again because it's been I think that's my favorite that I've ever seen So maybe I'll just watch the movie instead of find a play It's a good movie And now Joseph Fiennes plays uh, what's his name? You know the guy that just marries Portia. Oh All of the names I might watch the movie first and then read the book because Obviously I can I mean like and as we said, I mean like the She's the smartest character and the whole thing is Portia and he actually plays Portia is phenomenal. Yeah I just remember like I When I read it the first time as an undergrad Like she is the smartest character and I liked her until she like gives her punishment to Shylock at the end I just but I think it's again. It's like As like an undergrad. I didn't know what to do with those like conflicting feelings So I just never read the play again Instead of like working through like I just kind of like in my dissertation. I focus this makes me feel bad feelings. No, thank you Front the discomfort of the ending um And then you know just stick to like the fun tragedy I mean honestly like Portia like is such a fascinating character as just like a representation of like womanhood because She's I mean she is the smartest and she's also like one of the most devious Because she shows up and does this whole thing in the guise of someone else She as you say like which made you uncomfortable. She makes the punishment worse for Shylock And then she takes the opportunity to trick and punish um her lover for his you know And he even shows faith to her and she forces him into Basically betraying her and then punishes him for it later. So like she's She's quite a lady Too much fun being the puppet master there. She's and I think that it really was like little finger, but as a hot chick And I think there's like this moment where it's like this is the only freedom She's going to get because as soon as she's married She's not going to have any more freedom and so it does kind of feel this like weird like bachelorette party vibes It's like this is my last straw. Oh my god. Just framing merchandise as a bachelorette party That's what you're doing for your kicks But this like but like that whole like cultural idea of like I this is my last time to really Have power. It's also her first time because she's been sort of cloistered because she's bound by the will of her dead father Which is nuts So this is like the first time I get to do whatever I get to tell a bunch of people what to do So and then you're like, oh girl, you make some interesting choices With your power Yeah, so yeah But We're doing it Yeah, the the hogarth is called charlotte is my name So I wonder who it's gonna focus on Perspective is it gonna be which is why it's like I don't I mean I assume that the project of all of these is to retell the entire play But I mean it's you again you could just focus on like a deal between Like the merchant and the moneylender and just have that without the portia element Um, you can do that I don't know what they're gonna do Because I don't know how you would tell portia's stuff from shilox perspective Like it would have or just like that is the part that would be the most difficult to make modern Because there's not a lot of dads who put that in their will these days Also that either they're gonna have her cross dress and show up in a court of law like Yeah That'll be interesting Yeah, so that'll be next month It will indeed Yeah, I'm looking forward to it because I'm always looking forward to these chats because they're always fun We ended up talking about hamming way and cashier in the rye and Mike Well the history of literature as told by heather Maybe next time we can do it in the evening and we can have like cocktails with it Uh-oh it'll get much spicier But we had less questions this time on the the screen We've just been so good at asking our own All right, well, I guess until next time until next time we'll catch you from rich in avenis, which will be spicy