 Boom! Howdy fam! Anthony Johnson here today co-founder of the Redman Group, founder of 21 Studios, 21 Convention, 21 Summit, 21 University, 22 Convention, the Patriarch Convention, 10,000 other things on the internet. Here's a special Friday edition, Friday episode, Good Friday, right? Not literally, but figured of the, I guess. Episode 168 of the Redman Group, Patriarchy is inevitable. Today I bring you talking about masculinity, femininity, Christianity, controversy in Christian denominations like patriarchy, pro-patriarchy, anti-patriarchy, issues like that. And I'm talking about making women holy again, if you guys can see that, one of my favorite new hats I got made a couple months ago. And also, we're talking about a book, if you guys can see it, it'll show again in a minute, called It's Good to be a Man, from co-author, Pastor Michael Foster, one of today's guests, along with another Christian pastor having on for the first time, Pastor Brian Sabay, allegedly the eighth Irish cousin of the infamous Rico Suave, we're going to find out and investigate that situation. Before we get into today's show, a quick shout out from our sponsor, our own event, the Patriarch Convention, formerly known as the 21 Convention Patriarch Edition. Special upcoming event in Orlando, Florida, it's going on for its fourth year in a row, this October 14th to 17th, 2022. Come on down, you can see Michael Foster, Pastor Michael Foster on the left here, Elliot Hulse on the right, many other speakers in the background. It's a four-day event, Friday through Monday, it's amazing, you want to be an Apex alpha male patriarch, lead your family with honor, conviction, integrity, and badass, powerful masculinity. It's an amazing event, it's part of the larger 21 summit that has two other events going on. So this one's for fathers and husbands, men who are focused on that domain of life and that kind of spectrum of life as a man. We also have events for men who are more like single, younger bachelors, but any man of any age is welcome over 18. And we have women's event too, called the 22 Convention, you can see Elliot Hulse and his amazing wife Colleen Hulse right here, pictured at last year's event in October. So come on down to the event, your future's patriarchy, have a great time. You can bring a friend free, or a son, or a brother, whatever you want. And patriarch attendees get access to the 21 Convention as well, speeches to it, complimentary with your ticket. Come on down, save $1,000 and get your ticket now. You can get tickets at a link in the description or visit 21studios.com. Now without further ado, your future's patriarchy, please let me welcome to the show Mr. Michael Foster and Pastor Brian Sauve. I think I'm saying that right. Close enough. How are you doing? Doing good, man. Glad to have you guys on today. I appreciate the special Friday scheduling. Usually we do on Saturdays, but who cares? Friday is close enough. So I appreciate you guys coming on. Michael, thank you for introducing me to Brian as well. I was looking for more kind of wingmen for you, so you weren't solo as a Christian pastor. There's Reverend Peterson as well, but I know you guys don't line up on all the issues. And you guys are much tighter on the issues as I understand it. So I'm excited to dig into that and look into it. Yeah, thanks for the invite, Anthony. Appreciate it. So first up, I want to, yeah, I'm looking forward to meeting you, man. We've only talked once on the phone, but I'll meet you in a few months in Orlando. Yeah, looking forward to that too. The first thing's first, I wanted to bring up a religious article that came out about maybe a month ago, not even from churchleaders.com. And it wasn't too much. It's not like a normal hit piece against our events like I'm used to. It's pretty fair, I think. Michael, you commented about that as well on your Twitter. Yeah. But they discovered our event and they were particularly triggered, I think, by the inclusion of Brian and yourself, Michael. So if you guys had kind of talked to me about this article and what your first response to it was when you saw it, I'd never seen anything like this about our events. Usually it's just like feminist mainstream media pieces. So I'm new to this kind of stuff. Yeah, he reached out to me via the author here, Dale Chamberlain. He reached out to me for a comment. Why do I, he wanted to know why I thought it was important that I be at this event. I was like, I never said it was important for me to be at this event first off. Like, that's kind of, you know, there's something baked into the premise here. But I said it's just an opportunity to speak to preach the gospel to women, you know, and speak truth to women, something like that. I was curious if they were going to put my actual quote in there. What would they say? But when I went through all of it, for the most part, it was factual. You know, there's a little bit of spin in the middle of it. But I think I don't know what the goal is here. I mean, maybe see if you get some more attraction. I don't know what, what his narrative goal was really, because he doesn't seem to be pro patriarchy per se. Look at some of his other stuff. But he also, it was mostly honest. And maybe, maybe people are recognizing that this is just a good conversation to have. It's good for clicks, good to get out there. Yeah. And then also that I would use my influence to beat up on them if they lied. And get the truth out there, you know, which is true. I would have done that. And this is a pretty big website. I think on Facebook they have like 30,000 followers. I don't know how many on Twitter, but it had a pretty good, it's a website with a real fan base to it, at least seemingly. So, Brian, what do you think about this piece when it came out? And you've been through some media storm we'll get to in a minute before, but yeah, it was the first time for me seeing this kind of thing. Yeah, that was, it was almost the exact same play that, you know, the probably word for word, same, same Twitter message from the author. And Michael and I compared notes probably within half an hour of both of us replying to him. And I think we said virtually the same thing without pre-planning. Like the way you phrased it is actually nothing that either of us have said. And then, but here's why we're speaking here. Here's why we're glad to be there. And I was fairly shocked as well, you know, that they, that it was so factual and didn't have all that much spin beyond the, the headline obviously is pointing towards this. Hey, you remember this idiot that said this thing and everyone hated him for it? Well, that same idiot is speaking at this other dumb thing. But I was pretty surprised and I do agree. I think once he got both of our messages back, he probably didn't expect us to answer the number one because it ran pretty soon after he messaged. And I think he realized if I say, if I spend this too much, both of these guys are going to drag me and I'll have an unpleasant week. So yes, pleasantly surprised. Yeah. Are there, are there a bunch of websites that are, this seems to be like a cross denominational website that tracks pastors and priests and stuff if I'm not mistaken. I didn't know this kind of thing existed. Are there other websites like this? Sure. Yeah. I mean, so Christian leadership is a huge, a huge area where you can develop a lot of content that makes a lot of money. Basically pastors that are trying to, I mean, you're dealing with cross generational problems, family conflicts, leadership development, all that stuff in the church organization. People don't just show up on Sunday and leave actually. They show up with all their problems and there's different people that want to be seen as an elder or a deacon and maybe they're qualified. Maybe they're not. So pastors really have to be general practitioners that know how to solve a lot of leadership issues. So there's a ton of books out. Some of it is just taking more or less corporate America leadership tips and rebranding it for Christianity. It's not like the red pill where people just go in and these, you have these Twitter accounts that blow up every couple of months where they're like real big deal. And we all know that concept. We've seen it all before. They just cut and paste it, put like a new hashtag, a little bit of a, a little bit of a, you know, spin on it that makes it their own kind of same thing with the Christian world. It's just the same, you know, trendy book, trendy idea. But when you get down to the same stuff. So yeah, there's a lot of that out there. Yeah. Now I wanted to also bring up Michael, you've said to me that Brian's actually more hardcore than you, which tickles me pink because you're like, I consider you like ultra Christian, like ultra maga. But I didn't know, I think I saw something briefly about it when it happened, but Brian, you hit mainstream news big time. This hit Yahoo. It hit the independent. It hit a lot of mainstream news sources. I wasn't aware of that when I invited you as a speaker. People think I'm like this mastermind, like looking for clout. And I don't even know half the time. I try to keep tabs on it, especially if someone's already spoken, but if they haven't, you know, the internet's a big place with a lot of stuff going on. So if you talk to me about when you hit, this was from this February this year. So a few months ago, what was this about? I mean, it's tweet obviously talking about women. I love it. I mean, dear ladies is the tweet. There's no reason whatsoever for you to love yourself and low cut shirts, bikinis, bras. Are they screwed up the tweet? I can't read it all. But anyway, I saw you comment on it later too. And like, basically you're just giving ordinary advice to young Christian women or whatever from 100 years ago. Yeah. But today you say the same thing and people like freak out. So talk to me about this experience of going viral and what the content was about the tweet. Yeah, sure. So I mean, the basic premise of the tweet in the first place was me talking to people that actually are interested in following me, which are mainly Christian men and women interested in the recovery of the productive Christian household, you know, being a godly man, godly woman, producing godly offspring and that sort of thing. So I was really aiming in this tweet and that whole week really I had scheduled out a bunch of stuff about just the commodification of female sexuality. And, you know, a lot of women don't understand that they are the product on Instagram and Facebook that Facebook and Instagram are leveraging to sell advertisement. You know, they're not the client. They're the product. Yeah. And so, you know, when you take the commodification of the female body and you treat yourself in that way, posting pictures of yourself scantily clad, whatever the situation, you are basically functioning as a even unwitting prostitute. You're saying, I will sell my sexual self for clicks so that Reebok can sell sneakers or whatever. And so I set a boringly Christian thing and as often happens every three to six months, usually just stays in my circle of followers, but every once in a while someone will give it the old hate retweet or write an article. And this time it just, I mean, I was at a Psalm sing at our church and by 6 p.m. that day, like three hours later, it was number nine trending on Twitter and then other people were cussing me out and it was number two and then for a couple days, it was number one or for 24 hours when I think it was some sneaker company retweeted it and a bunch of boobs. And women just started posting, sending me nudes, sending me all sorts of pornography of themselves, which is of course the ultimate own on me to say, how dare you say be modest? Here, I'll send you pictures of myself naked. So basically they really got me. And you're married with like half a dozen kids or something? Married five kids, no interest. Those went to the delete folder. You know, Twitter is smart enough to censor media for people that when your messages are formatted the right way. So I didn't see both. I just saw the little, you know, you have a message and it was some scan to the cloud. Okay, well done with that. But I think that the analytics on that tweet were pretty wild. It was like 50 million impressions by the time two weeks later. And people were calling me from Canada asking me to do interviews on their radio shows and stuff. So it was an interesting 24 hours. But at the end of the day I was like, thank you. I'm pulling up a tweet right now. Oh, totally. We have something similar a couple of years ago with Michael McGray again. It does insane views and stuff. Yeah, the tweets got 22,000 quote tweets. Yeah. In addition to over 1,100 retweets. It's huge. Yeah. And I wonder how many comments, probably tens of thousands. That's crazy. Yeah, you want to be careful in that comment section. Yeah. Not safe for work. Yeah. Was that your first time going viral? Like it makes your media? It was the first time going, I've been Christian viral before. Okay. That was the first viral viral. Yeah, we kind of had that recently with the Patriarch convention, just promoting you two as speakers. And some of the images you made were pretty polarizing. Like in today's, I love making those, right? Of Michael. Yeah, of Michael. Yeah. Well, even with you though, we just did like a regular one for you. And even that made all these like these Christian feminists really angry. So the Patriarch convention kind of went viral inside of the, it's what seemed to be Christian Twitter sphere. And I'm not that familiar with that stuff. You guys obviously are. Like I'm not, I'm more like mandatory Twitter and kind of political Twitter to some extent, but it's been really interesting to see all that go down. And what, what I didn't, what I realized is what I didn't understand about Christianity today, that it's significantly like already kind of knew this from talking to you, Michael, and just observing it over the past couple of years. And just observing American culture, first of all, but the anti-patriarchal presence in Christianity is huge. It's much bigger than I realized. At least it seems that way. And I didn't understand that. I thought it was more like a blasé attitude towards it. And then you had some rabid feminist kind of stuff up, but it seems like it's more, it's a bigger problem than I even realized. And I already thought it was a big problem. Can you guys talk to me about the, the presence of anti-patriarchy in Christianity in America? Like are they, are anti-patriarchy Christians frauds? Um, so this is a, what do we mean by the word patriarchy? That's part of that. I was watching them. Sure. I don't know how I got on this, but I was watching some story about this crazy Mormon offshoot of the Mormon church. And this guy had like 83 wives and all these kids and he sexually abused his daughter and made them all dressed all terrible and like handing them off in marriage without them ever even knowing the guy. Like they met the guy at the, at the ceremony and all this stuff. It's fundamentalist Mormon. It's called, right? Yeah, that's right. And it was, it was at the height of it was like 25,000 people. And it's like down to 2,500 that the leader of it is in jail, but still has control. He was on the FBI's most wanted list for all the sex crimes. And I was watching this and hearing this girl's story. And she, she didn't really, she was his daughter. And it didn't seem dramatically over the top. And you can usually tell when someone's like, it sounds like you're kind of, you know, stretching this to make it more. But it seemed she was very anchored. And matter of fact. And I was thinking like this is what I, a lot of people imagine when they hear the world, the word patriarchy, something like this. And of course that's not what we mean. Not at all. What we mean is that father rule, the male rule is intrinsic to God's design as, as evident by everything, by there are no mat major article societies that are more than like a couple of decades there for a little bit. There's matrilineal where you track your heritage through your mother, but there aren't any where women. The Jews, the Jews do that, right? Absolutely. That's how I do it. But you don't track, you don't, the key leadership roles of influence are not held by women, at least the primary ones. And Steven Goldberg wrote a book called the inevitability of patriarchy, which is where I got the first line from my book. It's going to be a man which was republished as why men rule. And so that's a great book. And, and he's not a Christian and Margaret Mead wrote an endorsement of that book. Margaret Mead is a feminist hands down in the, really the mother of anthropology of modern anthropology. But she knew what he studied was right. And you look at this in corporate America, you can see who's in charge of companies, who's the chairman of the board. You can look at who's really making the decisions. It's still men. Now, I do think legally speaking, we're not really living in a patriarchal society anymore because the way laws have been done, it's more androgynous, it's more a mess, more confused. Women are given preeminence in, in certain domains where men aren't anymore. So that's, that's true. But what, what I was saying in, in the, my book I wrote was that this is part of God's natural order. Men are called to be leaders. Women expect men to lead women, expect men to perform there. Women have different standards for men than they do for themselves. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. They didn't have standards for themselves. That's the problem. When we started applying standards to women, suddenly you go viral. I had a viral tweet that got me in USA today, ran Paul's political analyst was criticizing me. You know, it went everywhere and it, it was, it was a lot like Brian's experience. You know, I didn't, I didn't trend on Twitter, but I had a lot of conservatives coming out after me because I was, I do tell guys to be careful or when dating single moms. I never said that they can't ever know the situation, marry a single mom. But there's a lot of hard questions you ask as you, it's not, it's not the same thing as marrying someone that's never been married and doesn't have kids. There's multiple complicated factors. So what happens is that Christians have never thought this issue through and not deeply for the most part, they have just absorbed the feminism, which is in the water, which is in the media, which is everywhere. And, and so you'll have people that claim to be patriarchal. They're deeply critical of me. And they don't really know what to do. They don't like what I say, but they can only prove it wrong because it would undermine their entire system of thought. Yeah. Because I'm, I'm plain. I'm bornly normal Christianity. If you just go back just a couple, like just a century even, but especially if you go back to the 1600s in the thinking, I don't have anything original to say. You think I'm based. Those guys are next level, right? So these guys, these women have never thought of it. I think also many of them have married weak men. They've married guys that are fairly passive. They're all right guys that, you know, they work 40 hours a week or whatever. If you're doing like box days sort of thing, they're like the Delta, the Delta guy to some degree, but they're not really aggressive leaders and the women. A lot of times are more of the leaders in the household and they, but they claim to be patriarchal. They got all these kids, they homeschool, they go to Christian school. It's a facade though. Like Amy, like Amy Coney Barrett, the Supreme Court Justice, she seems like that from a distance, like hardcore Christian, but then it's like you're, you seem to be very assertive as a woman. Like, are you really not wearing the pants in this family? I'm skeptical from that observational standpoint. Sure. And you looked, saw the exact same thing. And what was McCain's political candidate? Forget her name, the Alaskan. Oh, it's Sarah Palin. That's Sarah Palin, same, same spiel. You know, you see the chaos in their children and all that. And so I think some of it's a resentment being married to a guy that maybe he's not the guy they hoped he would be or they have to tell themselves. There's a lot of different factors playing here. The biggest one is just people don't know what you're talking about, that the church hasn't been teaching them sexuality. You know, when people tell me what I believe, I'm like, I don't believe that. Well, I thought you're patriarchal. I was like, well, what does patriarchal mean? You know, you define it. You seem to know because if you had read my book or you've followed me for a long time, you know, I don't fall into your, your, your clean little mold that you have for this. I believe that men are called to be the leaders. The world is our responsibility. Now, when I say responsibility, you know, all the rollo bots, you know, kind of, oh, oh, see, blame your men, blame your men. I must say that everything is man's fault. As if he is the cause, but there's our responsibility to deal with it. And so something goes wrong in your household. It's your responsibility. Right. And it's the same thing with anyone in an organization. Something goes wrong in your organization. You're the top of the organization. It's your job to take care of it. So I, what part of the narrative I see in some red pill circles that I struggle with is that women are inferior to men and women took, took the power from men. Now look, help me, help me link that up here. Right. Like how, how exactly did the feminine imperative happen with men handing it over at some level? If men are that much superior and that much stronger and all that stuff and women are that much inferior. Exactly how this happened. Well, I think what happens is there's, there's good patriarchy and there's bad patriarchy. We know guys that are like the patriarch of a group, but they're more like a cult leader. They're more like a guru and they manipulate men and women for their own good. And I think that's what we, we've had. We've had these people patriarchs and that's what we have in these tyrannical political leaders that reduce our riots. And they consolidate it into a few men that they can control. And that's what when we talk about patriarchy, like there is a type of patriarchy, I mean the smash, I mean to destroy it, but patriarchy itself isn't bad. Right. It's a patriarchy is natural. Just like sex itself isn't bad, but there's types of sex that is bad and destructive. Christians have not thought about this. They get triggered real easy. They're still listening to more or less like Oprah Winfrey, sort of content with a thin veneer of Christianity painted over it. And, and people, and they, and they just don't know that they don't know how bad things are. Some of these people are like in their late 40s and 50s and 60s. They know that women sleep around. They know that, but they don't know that they sleep around like they do now. Right. They don't realize that not only do they have an Instagram account, they got a burner account too. Right. They have an account where they post their stuff that they really want people to see and they post other stuff from mom and dad define or system. They're still, they're still living in the 90s basically. That's their model of like what the dating marketplace is like. I feel that talking to boomers and older Gen Xers. And it comes up. It's a generational divide. And what I've realized, because my goal is to take it down, to take down the corruption. And in the boomers have money and power. And part of the work we have to do is try to help some of them see the light. And you can see pastor Doug Wilson, who's in my denomination of man who I deeply respect. Doug Wilson used to say some boomerish things. But man, I gotta tell you the content he's been putting out the last year, he's dialed in. He wrote a book on how to get a girl and it's pretty red pill man. In other words, he's sticking this stuff through. So I do think there's guys out there that are realizing like, whoa, this is actually young men are being hurt. This is a bad situation. We got to speak to it. So I'm really encouraged to see that happen. We have to reach those people if we're going to do something, you know. So there's some thoughts. I'll hand the mic off to the man with the beard there. Yeah, Brian, I got a question for you. Based on Michael's saying, he's talking about patriarchy is leadership and masculinity. God calls on men to lead their families, their culture, all that. Do you think that leadership makes women miserable? And in terms of it being an unnatural role in the context of what Michael said? Yeah, and I do think that this gets to a lot of the issue with some of the, your original question about is, is there a large anti-patriarchy movement in Christianity? And I think what you see is that, you know, RL Dabney, a theologian over a hundred years ago, he said that this kind of reactionary conservatism that is basically just always responding to the progressive liberal aggressive agenda is basically like the shadow that follows radicalism to perdition is what he called it. So you see this playing out in the, both the secular conservative world, you see it playing out in church politics and church teaching where there's a group of people, the progressive radical left that have a totalizing agenda where they are aiming to teach human beings, how to be human beings in every aspect of what it means to be human. They're saying, this is what you should think about gender and sexuality. This is what you should think about politics and money. This is what you should think about nutrition and diet. This is, you know, all the way down the line. Morality with all the philosophy. Yeah. And their goal is to say, here's what a human being is and is for. Here is the fundamental nature of reality and how to live in harmony at peace with it. And they have no intent of carving out a neutral space where they would say something like, you know, you do your thing over there if you disagree with me and we'll do our thing over here. They want to win the world, right? They want to win everybody to their view. And so what you see is this kind of, I would call it like a cuckolded conservatism or a soft conservatism that is the shadow that follows radicalism to perdition in the sense that it's always trying to say, let me cling to some vestigial part of my worldview. I'll seed you most of the key battleground. And so in the church, you see this with something like complementarianism and a lot of the current teaching around anthropology and sexuality and the household and men and women and children and all of that, where they'll say things like, well, men and women fundamentally are the same in their nature in every way. And then sure, in the Bible, there are a few places where God says, and yet, you know, men are to be pastors and women are not to be pastors. They're trying to cling to that doctrine, but at the same time, they're holding that out with their right hand and with their left hand, they're denying that any kind of in nature, in the creational foundations of manhood and womanhood, femaleness and maleness, this real distinction that shows up even in a book like Why Men Rule, where he's anthropologically demonstrating the natural differences, the in nature differences of maleness and femaleness that actually mean when translated into almost every corner of human existence that if you try to put femaleness into a position that it was not designed to be put into, like leadership, civic leadership, home leadership, political leadership, ecclesial leadership of the church, then what you will be doing is you'll be asking a fish to go walk the dog. It's just, over time, because it doesn't work on the level of God's created design, well, then you're going to actually end up harming both society, I don't think being led by that woman, and you're going to harm the woman herself. So it's super dysfunctional, basically. Right, exactly. Exactly. So, you know, I think against this totalizing agenda of what I would call the demonic, secular, ascendant, woke left religion, this kind of cuckolded conservatism has been attempting to have no fight to not fight the fundamental battle of totalizing worldview with one hand and kind of cling with the other hand to a few vestiges of doctrine. And that really is just, it's just a shadow. The further progressivism goes, the shadow's going to follow, it's going to be three steps behind, but ultimately it's going to land in this creation denying perdition where men and women are trying to be something that God the Father did not make them to be. It's going to land in the world of self-destruction. They're going to pay for it in pain and suffering. The Proverbs say those who hate wisdom love death. So that's the principle. If you hate wisdom, whether you like it or not, what's going to happen is that thorough goingly throughout everything you do, you're going to embrace death as your mistress and your lover, and you're just going to be making love to death. I mean, that's what you do. So I think Michael and I, one of the reasons that we're aligned on a lot of this stuff is because what we're trying to do is return again to this 15th, 16th century boringly old Christianity that says, creation has a givenness because it has a creator who made it a certain way. And he fitted each part of his creation for those things which he purposed for it to do. And so if you try to deny that functionally anywhere, what you're going to end up doing is putting the fruit of death somewhere down the line in an increasing way. Which is why patriarchy is inevitable. You can have, I always ask people, if all society was gay, how long would society last? One generation, right? Let's say no heterosexual sex at all. It'd be one generation. And when you try to overturn God's design, you can get away with it for a while. A great example would be our economic systems in America. Our economic systems are broken and make no sense. And the reason we've been able to get away... I love this. I just like this picture for some reason. I love it. A woman. We've been able to get away with a broken economic system for a series of compromises down the line. And when finally it breaks, it's going to break massively. And so I think a lot of libertarians have underestimated how long the system can work. They've been expecting things to collapse. Peter Schiff's been saying it forever. It was a 90s, right? But they're not wrong that it's broken and there's going to be some sort of catastrophe at some point. I think a lot of times we underestimate or as George Bush would say, how long these things can go broken. So we're in a broken culture and there's going to be a time where it breaks down. Part of the problems where I differ with MGTOW and some of the Blackpill guys is they think that men can just kind of pull out of society and it's going to like collapse all at once and then they'll re-enter in and re-establish things. No, I don't think that's going to happen. I think they underestimate the number of blue pill men or wherever you want to call them. That will go along with this. They underestimate how long things will take to break down. I think that, and I also think that's kind of passive. And again, we've interacted with these people and we've seen what's happened to their lives and the things they've gone through. They're not exactly as the culture would depict them as these basement dwelling trolls. A lot of them are successful professionals that really went through some terrible things in a marriage that fell apart, got thrown under the bus by the courts, often by the church, whatever. But I think we don't realize how long this stuff can drag on. And if you have the confidence, I do, that patriarchy is inevitable. It's a part of nature. It's a natural, like it was Sister that says, custom never defeats nature. That's right. And so nature is inevitable. So why go against the grain of nature? And that's what you're doing if you're backing out. I say go with it and take it. And I think the wind is in our sails. It just means you have to fight and it's aggressive and it's messy. It means you get hate mail and it means that people say you beat wife. It means that you go, it means all the stuff that anyone in this space does. It means you're going to suffer for it. It means that you have to be willing to make allies and co-beligerants that people are going to, you know, guilt by association are, is an intense in our culture and it works on some people. Right? Like I don't care. Like Jesus associated with terrible people. Paul was too, you know, and I'm really careful. I do things. But yeah, Brian, Brian did a whole tweet thread on this exact topic, you know, recently about, about me and 21 and picture. And the manager, I guess. Yeah. And so it's just, that's what it's going to take. That's what it's going to take. We're going to have to be willing to suffer and push through, but there is, victory is not that far off as people think it is. People are recognizing the insanity of this. Like what people don't know about the 21 summit is there are always a few characters that have some things to say that I think a lot of people will rather eyes that not just me or Christians. And you know, you create more or less Ted talks for men. It's a forum. The whole, the whole premise of it isn't that everyone agrees, but everyone's talking about a subject. They're anti-feminists and the pro male more or less. And so it's a forum by nature. It's a place for multiple perspectives to interact. It's not, no one there fully endorses anyone or even mostly endorses anyone like Tanner and I both know each other going to hell, except I'm right. And, and Tanner and I have talked about it and we tease each other about it through texts and stuff, but you know, it just says, I could work with a Mormon at my vocational job. I can, I can sit on stage and have a conversation and be civil. My goodness, man. So, well, you share a common values and serious concerns about the country you live in that things could fall apart into all kinds of catastrophes and the masculinity is good. Yeah. And people act like we live in a Christian nation or something. This is the nation that's multicultural to, and that's part of the problem. But what I was going to say is that they don't realize how positive 21 has gotten 21 summit. Like when you go there, it's very positive and people are really talking about like how to do things, how to fix things, how to build things, how to put their life back together, how to build something positive. People are very open to hearing about the spiritual nature or side of masculine. They want to talk about it. They come to me, they seek me out, you know, and I can, and the conversations are mature, relaxed conversation. I just think me and Arthur Kwan Lee and Alex Cortez and Tanner and a few other guys in a room with a bunch of the attendees just listen to us go back and forth over philosophy and stuff. It was a, it was an awesome conversation. And that's what's happening because men are looking for a forum to talk about these things where they're not going to get canceled. We're not going to be hated. We're not going to be screamed at. And so to me, it's like, whatever, I got to deal with some people making nasty memes in me online and telling me I'm a terrible person, whatever. I still go home to Emily every night. I still have seven kids. I still have close friends. They can tell me who they think I am. But at the end of the day, I'm still me. And this is a, this is a great, a great point too about the, a number one, Christianity ought not be scared of having conversations out in the open. If we believe that it's true and we do, then we believe that it's true everywhere it goes and about everything it says. And that means that we're not scared of going into the modern day areopagus like Paul and act 17 talking with the stoic and Epicurean philosophers with whom he completely disagreed about reality to bring his message there. And who had sex with little boys. Yeah. Forget this. They weren't minor differences. And these weren't, these weren't Christians morally. They, you know, and even this, I think even demonstrates some of the feminization of the conversation, you know, where you say we, we have even, you know, women of both sexes or whatever the phrase phrase is, not wanting men to go and have these conversations in environments that aren't completely controlled and sanitized by a Christian morality from top to bottom. And I would say that if you're doing that all your, you're functioning in a way that puts agreeableness, you know, that puts unity building above things like conflict in search of what is actually true. Conflict resolution. Yeah. The only way you could do that is by actually taking a claim and a counterclaim and, and make them go to war in front of everybody. Nobody editing anything. Nobody photoshopping or putting a plastic veneer over it. And, you know, because we're Christians, we're not scared of doing that. I'm not scared that I'm going to get cooties from some, you know, differing worldview on me just because I'm in the same room with it. It's like, is what I'm saying true or is it not? And if it's true, then it shouldn't be scared of coming into the light. So this brings me to my next question. I want to ask both of you guys, particularly Brian, but also Michael, to an extent, Michael, because he's been around longer basically, but what has been your observation and reception to the Manisphere? Like how you've been accepted? Brian, you haven't been to Manisphere live event yet, but you will in a few months. You've seen it online, I'm sure, and observed what I tweet, what Michael tweets, many others. I mean, some people, a lot of people have reached out to me and said that it's a strange comment for me to get, but they say that I'm more Christian than a lot of Christians I know because of my fierce advocacy of masculinity and a family and a fatherhood and a femininity, masculine men, feminine women, stuff like that. What do you guys observe? I mean, some people even say, I think Brian said it in his Twitter thread, that you see the work of God in the Manisphere and your own vision and understanding of it. So what has been your observation of the Manisphere as a kind of a decentralized movement and what's been your own personal reception to it as you've gotten a little bit closer to it and created content in a way, especially Michael, who's pretty popular and hops on a lot of livestreams and stuff? Yeah, sure. The reception, I think, is always surprisingly good because I think a lot of the even non-Christians who come across Michael's content or my content or Pastor Doug Wilson's content, they recognize the ring of, well, whatever these guys believe fundamentally, it seems like what they're saying is with the grain of reality. It seems like they're identifying actual problems that we really see as well and that they're not peripheral problems, right? That some of the things we're talking about are they really are getting to the center of where societally things are going wrong and so they're not these meaningless conversations about how many angels could dance on the head of the pin. They're real questions with actual implications for everybody, no matter what. And I think part of it as well just has to do with the nature of sort of uncensored maleness that it certainly can go very wrong and can become very destructive. Unrestrained maleness can destroy worlds. But when you actually take off the restraints from maleness as well, you see the glories of maleness in the same vision as well. You can see the glories of courage and conquest and strength and self-sacrifice and care about the truth over consensus. A lot of those things I think are attractive to human beings because human beings are made in the image of God, who is the God who creates reality that's not relativist goo. It actually has edges and shape to it. I think some of those things are at play. I'd be curious to hear what Michael has to say as well since he has much more experience in the trenches of the man a sphere than I do. Yeah, it's wild. I guess what I would say is for the most part, it's been a warm reception for the most part. There are some contingents that anyone that is pro-marriage, which I am, and they take great offense to that because they think that's signing men up more or less for a life of imprisonment. I think there's some that are really strongly, they want the man a sphere to be a religious, so not have any religious elements in it. But I think everything's naturally religious and spiritual and it's inevitable. But nonetheless, there's some of that negativity that you get. But for the most part, I think men respect men that are men of integrity that shoot them straight and don't talk down to them. And I find it pretty easy to build relationships with other men and I think it's basic stuff. So I've had a really good time. I've become friends with a lot of guys and we keep up and we talk and we have some really, we disagree and that's that. We disagree. And I'll lay it out. And Tony, you know, when I come on his live stream sometimes he always has closing thoughts. I always just tell people to repent and believe the gospel. You know, I just tell him the same thing every time. And I mean it too. And I think it's funny when I'm on Tony's stream, people don't really, they seem always surprised that I'm willing to listen to them, which I think is a bad sign that there's this assumption that people are just not gonna listen to you. And I know what I believe is true. And I'm not in a rush to defend myself and are in a rush to defend that I'm willing to talk to someone. You're securing your beliefs is what I've observed of you over the years. And I want to hear what they have to say. I don't know what they're gonna say. Everyone's always assuming everything. Give them a moment. You know, you could tell when someone's a young punk and needs to be put in his place, but a lot of the guys on that stream are like that. You know, a lot of those guys really just have real questions. And so I find that if you come, you come that way with anyone. This is part of the problem with a lot of the people that are very critical of what I have to say and anyone like me is that they don't even listen. Like they put words in your own mouth. They're condescending the rude and nasty. And you're like, I don't want to be anything like you. They make wild accusations that you abuse your wife and all kinds of criminal nasty stuff. They do. And they've threatened my life. Yep. Yeah, we have to be circumspect about my address and things like that. And, you know, we had this guy rush Kavanaugh because of abortion and a road be weighed. And these people are, some of these people are very deranged and they don't understand how, how much harm that, you know, and people try to pull my kids into it. Like my wife, my wife every once in a while has been on a stream with me just because he happens to be in the room or something. But, you know, this does not really hear her thing. And certainly not my kids thing. And these people are willing to pull all that in. The atmosphere generally, as long as like we kind of keep it to combatants, you know, if someone inserts himself into the combat, you know, then they're a combatant then. But generally it's kept that way because it's more of a conversation or argument, whatever. So for me, it's been, it's been positive. I've seen a lot. I've seen more than a few people come to my church because of the Red Man crew for me at 21. I've been able to minister to some of the people who have since converted to Christianity and helped them find, helped them find good churches to plug them into. And so I'm thankful for the opportunity to speak the truth. The interact with ideas. Like to, you know, like to take Christianity out for a spin in a public domain. It's fun, you know, run over some people. Yeah. So this is, this is two, two of the main reasons. I love working with you, Michael, next to Brian now who's a bit newer. Both of you are aggressively and fully in favor of aligning, living within, living in alignment to reality into nature. And you believe that certain God and stuff made this reality in this nature. We differ there, but I don't really, I don't really care because you're so aggressively in favor of the world, the observable world around you and that to live in alignment to it in a common sense fashion is really healthy and good and natural and positive. And to do, and to disobey that is going to have inevitable consequences, pain, misery, suffering, all kinds of stuff. Let's tell Michael of the day that the seven deadly sins are very interesting to me because in a way it's like these sins, you live in a way like a hell on earth, you know, gluttony being obese, you know, being on a scooter at 40 years old and eating fried chicken at Walmart. I mean, this is being, you know, this is disgusting. This is a hellish way to live, even if it's not a literal hellscape. It's like, I can't even imagine living like that. This is what people do with gluttony, with lust, all kinds of stuff, and it's amazing to see. There's another point too I wanted to make with that. Dang it, it was a follow-up to that. But anyway, I love it. I love working with you guys on these issues. And yeah, people need this kind of information, man. I'm glad, oh, this is what I wanted to ask you too. Next, I'll think of the second point in a little bit. But do you think, do you find that the manosphere is more welcoming to these issues than other Christian, like, you realize Christianity in America? And even, I know Michael, you've said Christian conferences, for example, they try to limit your speech at like a live event. They try to dictate to you what you're going to say and not say. That has happened until recently, yeah. The last couple of years now anymore, because they kind of know what you're getting. But as I said, the first time I spoke at the event, I was, I used to do a lot of youth speaking back in the day. And I was invited to come to a youth conference and speak, and everything seemed fine. And the guy gave me a list of issues that I had a lot to talk about. And I said, what's this? He's like, you're allowed to talk about these things. And I was like, well, since when? Why are you telling me this now? Well, we just think they're sensitive issues, like not talking about health, sexuality, you know, that sort of thing. And I had none of those were any topics that I planned to talk about. But I brought the list with me up there and I immediately talked about all of them. And Emily looked at me and she knew exactly what I was going to do. And I was just like, no way. Like, people don't tell me what I get to talk about when I'm preaching from the Lord of God. That's my decision, you know? And you don't want, you shouldn't invite me. You shouldn't invite me. Because I'm just going to do what I think is right. And that's that. And, well, then we're not going to invite you back. It's like Jim Morrison in The Doors. They told him not to play, come on baby, let my fire. And he was his name. That famous talk show before Carson back to the day at something show, Ed Sullivan show. So they play it anyway. And Ed Sullivan says, you'll never play the Ed Sullivan show again. He's like, we just played it, man. That's kind of how I feel. It was like, whatever, I just did it. And so I think nowadays though, there is a hunger for this content more and more. Because people are seeing the cost that it's to your point on gluttony and the seven deadly sins and the temporal consequences of it, people are seeing that. And there, and I, my church has a lot of people that I probably would have called normies years ago that would not have had patients for me. And those are the same people like pushing me to take more risk. Where I've become, you know, trying, you know, I like to bring people along and I don't want to like, I don't want to scare them away. I'm fine to differ, but I'd like them, I'd like them to leave because we disagree, not because there's a misunderstanding. These days you're like, go harder, man. You know, it's crazy. And so I think people are fed up and they're listening. So the church is coming around, but the guys that are in the Manisphere already have had that sort of, you know, they might, they might not be fully living in the new reality, but they are starting to unplug and they're realizing things are not what they were told. Hence the whole matrix. They're further from the mainstream. That's what I've observed about the Manisphere just thinking about it and being in it for some 15, 16 years. It doesn't exist within the control of mainstream culture, feminism, government organizations, thought police, PC culture for the most part that stuff is like very minimal in the Manisphere. And it's one of the few movements around where I think that really is the main thrust of it is a rejection of all the stuff, the trans stuff, the homeless, called the homeless stuff, the communism, socialism, feminism, the wokeism, like it's this large scale rejection of really irrational ways of living. That's what's reminded me by the way of my second point I wanted to make is that both of you, and I think Doug Wilson would be in there too, but you guys are super in favor of the truth and you fight for the truth conceptually. Even if we disagree on what some of these specifics are, you're in favor of the truth 100% in a world that thinks it's post-truth, and there is no truth, and raw truth, and what's your truth, bro, and my truth, and personal truth, all this like, all this relativistic crap. Both of you are like super anti-relativist. You're like, there's reality, God made it, this is the Bible, this is the book, this is what happened, this is Adam, this is Eve, and I love being around that because I hate the wishy-washy flip-floppiness of so much of culture right now. I guess there maybe is a silent chunk or majority or whatever it is that also doesn't like that, but they don't speak up enough, and you guys do. You got mainstream hate, you got death threats, and yet you keep pushing, and I love that. Those are the places where you discover what the actual issues are and where the truth needs to be preserved in any given time, and those are gonna be different parts on the wall at different times. There was a biographer of Martin Luther, one of the reformers, Protestant Reformation, and he basically said to paraphrase, it's at the point of attack that the courage of the soldier is tested. It's not like, can you defend the walls of Christian orthodoxy and truth everywhere they're not attacking? Can you defend the doctrine of superlapsarianism or infralapsarianism? Well, over here, we've got a bunch of basically all in progressive demonic agenda saying, well, we're going to actually say that a man is a demand, a woman isn't a woman, sex isn't, and deny all of these key doctrines of anthropology and deny reality there. That's where you have to go and you have to figure out whether you have the stones to say the truth into the hostility of opposition, or if you're just going to say comfortable truths over here on the offstage, where the debate's not really happening. And again, I just think that's where you have a lot of cowardice that is revealed, and it also gives opportunities for guys like Michael and me who do just say boringly Christian things to just continue saying those boringly Christian things in exactly the place where that will cause mobs to develop. It's only boring 500 years ago or 100 years ago. These days it's all like sanitized Christianity, which I think is a basic reason why you do stand out and you guys get heat on you from not only mainstream media sometimes, but all these Christian feminists and anti-patriarchy Christians and like Michael, you told me about a Christian, I don't want to dox his name or anything, but you said he got kicked out of his church for being openly pro-patriarchy. I know a lot of those. Yeah, I know a lot of those. Now, there are a lot of strategic missteps guys make, but that's what you do when you're alone a lot of times. You kind of overreact. That's another thing why having a signal boost like Red Men Group 21 so helpful. I always tell people I use social media. What people don't understand about my social media falling is I'm okay with losing it. Like I really that's what they don't get. Someone was like this guy had like 500 followers and he was like telling me how to build a falling and I was like, so you get like other account or something he's like, you keep this up you're gonna lose followers. I'm like, so what? So what? I'm fine with that. You know, I'm just riding this wave man, but my my whole goal when I got involved in Twitter, I told this is literally what I told my I'll have to send this to you. I told my elders a couple years ago at my former church that I'm pretty sure I can get into the Manisphere and and and I'm going to use Twitter to do it even though the Twitter's pretty gay. That was like in my report. I can show you that and then that was about seven months before George sent you connected me with you. But to the point like I want people to know they're not alone that their thoughts are crazy and a lot of these guys that they weren't isolated and it's had someone that was reasonably minded like, yeah, yeah, that's bad. It's terrible, but you don't have control of that. You have control of yourself. You can, you know, I mean someone that was just in their corner calm them down and aim them with then we can actually have get more done be more productive and not have these people get shot up and I don't want to say I don't like the word extremism because it's so politically pregnant with manipulation. I don't want to see them get into something that's super unbalanced and destructive to them and we've seen like some nut jobs like that run through like the what's his name that shot those people up in Colorado. We all like Roman Roman everyone that interact with them like he's got some interesting insights and he's a character but he's he gave everyone the abilities man even you and and so when he ended up going the direction he did it was probably because he was isolated and he had his own mental issues. I don't I want to like I think things like red man group and 21 like pointing people towards more constructive stuff like you've had you've had a lot of people on here that even though I disagree with the world view there's certainly not telling men to go up and shoot up stuff but trying to show them how to build a life that's more productive and not destructive so having this signal boost to say to other Christians out there in this world you're not crazy here's some things to think about here's how to build here's where to go here's where to look to I think that's that's helpful and I've been taking full advantage of it as long as it fits with my other life goals you know Amy this has been a good ride so it brings me to next question when I ask both of you and it's something that I really don't know so I want to ask but a lot of people I think are not I don't see it talked about enough how important in Christianity and your own both of your own understandings of it obviously there's a lot of different denominations and you guys the the denominational politics and fighting or have been of increasing interest in me over the past couple years but how important our issues like masculinity and femininity to Christianity because you hear all talk about family at least in better wings of it right not just super banal stuff but they talk about like family values and this and that what about masculinity and femininity because I grew up learning I was a you know raised as a Catholic there was no discussion of like patriarchy masculinity femininity none of this stuff and that you both present these are like really important issues to both of you so how important is it like officially because I don't think the average Christian even seems to be remotely aware of this yeah I mean to answer that question you really have to understand the fundamental issues that we're all going to need to answer in some way and how we view and live in the world questions like what is a person what is a human being what is the nature of this reality that we live in who made it did anybody make it where did it come from and when you start asking those questions you realize that how doctrinally center a question like what is a man and what is a woman is if you don't understand that then you have a hard time understanding Christianity at all because those questions do live at the center of the doctrine of creation of anthropology when you start to look at the Christian answers to those questions you come to this realization that if you start denying maleness and femaleness and masculinity and these sexed realities in the world you'll have a hard time affirming the doctrine of scripture that the Bible is true you'll have a hard time affirming the doctrine of creation that God made all things the Bible is completely 100% frank and says no all things were made by God and specifically by God who is a father father of lights from whom comes down every good and perfect gift and that through sin man corrupted everything brought corruption into every corner of creation every part of what it means to be human is being infected by sin that humanity and humaneness isn't a bad thing but that it's been infected and corrupted by sin and so the only way that you're going to be able to even figure out how to live in the world that we live in is by understanding what are you even aiming at what is success what is a human being supposed to be what is a man supposed to be what is a woman supposed to be at the center of the Christian faith the gospel of the kingdom of God is the good news that because of the work of Christ in clearing our debt we can begin to actually live an authentic human life again which looks like being conformed by grace and through faith into the image for which God created man in the first place so to answer your question it's really sensual I mean you can't actually be sanctified this process of being conformed to the image of Christ you can't become more holy unless you understand what a holy man looks like anyway if you give the wrong answer to those questions you'll be like a guy who has the wrong map coordinates plugged into his iPhone and expects to still get to the right destination it's like you're just not going to get there you have to understand these questions if you're going to actually live a fruitful human life in the first place and Michael yeah but it's essential to understand the gospel so Adam is our first father he advocates his role as a leader and listens to the voice of his wife when she says her eat this fruit so Eve was deceived Adam wasn't deceived he knew he should have and he went along with his wife in the curse in the curse God says because you've listened to the voice of your own wife I'm doing this but Adam also rebelled against God as the father God had provided all for them he said this one thing don't do and they did that one thing and he did it and so even so the the fall is one way you can understand it is a man their election of duty and rebellion of fatherhood of the heavenly patriarch of patriarchy and so then there's a promise given that through a son the devil who himself is a father of a sort father of lies the devil will be crushed the devil passes down the patriarchal line that's why we trace Christianity patriarchally we look at the different fathers and whatever because somewhere a son a savior is coming Jesus had to be male Jesus couldn't be a daughter like he's a king he's a patriarch he's making things right he's the second Adam to correct everything so not only is the fall essential sexualized essential to the fall and so part of the benefit of being saved being washed in the blood of Christ being reconciled as now God is our father again we everyone's God's creation but in terms of a relationship not everyone has God as a father not all a son of God and that happens through Christ so you reject sexuality you reject the entire message of Christianity like male leadership is the consistent pattern throughout Jesus picks 12 men to pick other apostles it has to be men if you're going to have elders in the church they have to be husband of one wife they have to be a man same thing with deacons prophets were men when they held an office were there people that spoke forth the word of God in some way that weren't men there are a few occasions that there's not normative at all it's not a pattern and you have to look at those things in the proper context even when Deborah is she's made a judge of Israel because there wasn't a man that would step up and the purpose of it was to shame Israel was to say I got to put this woman and Deborah wasn't proud of it but she served but she served with a sort of sadness and so everything about Christianity is patriarchal in that sense everything about existence is sexual not erotically sexual but in that we have a sex we have an ontological biological reality we have sex I am a male as a man I never stopped being male in this life my experiences, my emotions, my hormones my design some women are really scared to walk on a city block they cross to the side of the street I don't, I'm six foot one I'm a big dude they cross to the other side I'm not scared I'm a man I'm with a guy that does not mean the end of our relationship that actually might be the start of a relationship for a man for a woman that might mean the end of a relationship in a garage that will be held throughout life but our entire experience is colored by our sexuality to deny it is to be foolish to say though that there is there is a basic equality between men and women and that we're equally human but there is a distinction so the problem is that feminists say equality but what they really mean is sameness and men and women are not the same they're different and different as good in my understanding I thought about this philosophically for five or six years now the most fundamental thing to being a human is being human itself but the second most fundamental thing is male or female and it seems to be very similar to what you're saying here that the only thing more fundamental than being a man or woman is being human in that sense we share a humaneness and I'm afraid to use the word equality because it's so loaded pregnant with propaganda but there is an equality and even in Christianity men and women are equal before God absolutely that's Galatians 328 that neither male nor female so people will say therefore sex is obliterated or do you still have a penis yeah you do so it means it doesn't it doesn't matter before Christ in some way now what is that way well it's that we have equal access to God through the cross and I've been thinking about this a whole a whole lot as we recover patriarchy we also have to in masculinity we have to recover femininity which is really tricky I think men are more hated actively than women but I really do think women have been more lied to and that's just kind of like a truism you know that I'm saying here to wake women up to this means seeing some that people have really done them wrong in some major ways and that's why I like you say hey you shouldn't be posting those pictures on Instagram like that or you should be careful about marrying single mothers you say that and things explode because these women everyone's told them no no what you're doing is great and no there's no consequences and then somebody says actually there's no real loss from these decisions they've never heard that before I remember this episode of the Andy Griffith show where OPI is playing this kid in chess and he keeps playing the kid winning chess so he'll be his friend and the kid sucks at chess and then someone finally like Andy says look you can't let him win you're deceiving him OPI next time just play for real and OPI destroys him and the kid like throws a fit and that's kind of what's been going on is we've been propping up a bunch of of lies and now when people are starting to make real demands and raise standards these people are freaking out and so we have to recover femininity as well that's why at 22 I saw in these women I saw in these women last year I know some of you have made some major mistakes and done things that you shouldn't have done but you have to rebuild with what we have and I always think about those shows where they reclaim old wood or something and you can make beautiful things with broken things and guys out there that have had some terrible divorces or made some huge mistakes or women like we have to rebuild where we're at and that means reclaiming femininity and I don't want my wife my wife is like gun hoe and chickens and bees and bulls and educates my kids and I hate chickens I can't stand it and I can't wait to kill half of them tomorrow when we butcher them I'm kind of like not looking forward to it but I am at the same time so I don't have to deal with them anymore but she brings things to my relationship that I can't bring I don't need someone that just cleans up after me I clean up after myself I'm a man and I could cook for myself if I wanted to but my wife enjoys it she does a good job but she brings all these other things that are advantageous and so patriarchy creates the space for women to be feminine again creates a safe space where you say you know what you don't have to go out there and compete with men I'll take care of it you don't have to defend yourself you know what when we walk down the street I'll walk with you you don't have to cross the other side you can just be a girl and she does this little thing where she runs and wraps her legs around her head and throws them to the ground that doesn't work in real life the guy with this body slammer and killer all this stuff that we see being pushed this women warrior stuff is nonsense not only do women have to be mothers and wives and careerists now they also have to be warriors and the culture is like piling on lies onto women and they're having nervous breakdowns and using tons of prescription medicine and tons of alcohol and losing their freaking minds patriarchy will stop that from happening yeah so I want to close up we've got about five minutes left something you mentioned a few minutes ago so I want to follow up on it and I want to ask both of you so are Christian female pastors and the women who are that want to become that and work towards that the ones who actually there are some who I've met one in real life there was one in Orlando at a local republican event and I thought it was pretty cringe anyway she was there Jesse Lee Peterson was there too you could tell he was seething because he really doesn't like the female pastors either are those female Christian pastors living in sin actively can they go to hell for that is it that bad well they're rejecting the word of god and what you find with those pastors is that there's usually other essential doctors they reject as well usually hell the exclusivity of Christianity we say no Mormons are going to hell no Buddhists are going to hell that to a woman is like I want to be nice and include them a lot of them so it's pretty rare that it's a standalone deviation from scripture yeah you see that think of some of the reasons pastors are charged with defending the sheep defending the flock against wolves so if you're saying that you're going to set up a woman pastor you should also in principle have no problem when the wolves come an intruder comes into your house saying okay honey here's the gun go take care of them I'll hide under the bed it's the same thing pastors deal with continuing in our church in last year there have been at least five or six scenarios where the male pastor at myself and the other pastors and elders have to go tell somebody that he needs to repent of some serious sin or we are kicking him out of the church and the security at the door will be saying you may not come back in you are not a Christian this is just basic church discipline if you then put a woman into that role you're asking her to do 15 things before breakfast that she's not ontologically or in her nature equipped to do and you're setting up a system where you are guaranteeing a cowardice you're guaranteeing compromise you're guaranteeing a church that's going to be taken over by wolves and evil patriarchy even really sneaky evil patriarchy so yeah I mean in the sense that if you willfully continue this is one of the core again boringly orthodox doctrines of Christianity if you willfully continue in serious unrepentant sin then you're not a Christian this is like Paul in 1st Corinthians 6 says don't you know that liars and adulterers and men who practice homosexuality will not inherit the kingdom of God and he's not saying that people are saved by their good works but he's saying that shows that these people are not Christians they don't submit to the father they're not sons they're frauds and so certainly you could we wouldn't want to set up a doctrine where we would say any one particular instance of any one sin if you're going to hell people go to hell because they are sinners and they therefore sin in their behavior and they need repentance and faith in Christ but female pastors are doing something that to you guys is pretty obviously out of line with the word of God like this is not a complex issue not a gray area like great cut and dry and stupid it's like it's like Doug Wilson calls gay marriage gay mirage I've had a a lesbian Methodist pastor who we actually had lots of good conversations we worked out at the same YMCA and we would talk sometimes but she would always say yeah I'm a pastor and I was like no you're not and she's got a kick out of it because she was actually more manly than a lot of guys I know I mean this is going to be honest but I would say no you're not and it was like a running joke the kind of but she knew I really meant it and so they're not pastors they can't be it's like a cat can't be a dog it's not within your nature it's not possible can a woman be pastoral because you have that sort of shepherd like care for people absolutely and we need feminine nature in the church we need that motherly instinct we need all that sort of detail that can really matter to women in atmospheres we need all that stuff would that be like a Lori Alexander the transfer wife the way she talks online to young women I think so and I think Lori struggles sometimes with having that teaching platform but she's very clear she only wants to talk to young women and she always addresses young women and when she deals with things that speak more to men it's usually tweeting something to mine or Brian's or Eric's or someone else's and so I think she's trying it's hard like what are we to do there's women they need good content on how to be a godly woman because they're not being taught in their churches and so you have some women that will have podcasts and some of the patriarchal guys will say well women shouldn't be teaching okay alright I feel ya but you know these women are trying to encourage other sisters out there without that and then they'll say well what if men listen well you know what is that really their fault the guys are doing that like I've been on there's a podcast called the sheologians and it's two ladies it's been on it's very popular and I've been on it I've never listened to my entire life I've never even listened to my episode it did pretty well but it's sheologians women teaching women we're wrong with that and we need more content out there but we don't need women trying to exercise authority over men and lead the church they're not equipped to do it just like they're not equipped for the battlefield oh well I know this one woman she killed these people and she did a good job like whatever it's one example it's not sister and it's not even good a lot of times like men I've been dealing with the death of my brother and I didn't cry at all the week of I just I did what I needed to do I dealt with the corner police and all that sort of stuff and but then a couple weeks down the road I just you know I'm feeling it more now and that's because men tend to have delayed grief with trauma which is really helpful in the battlefield women tend to experience everything in the now right they're very they're very emotionally aware so that's good when you're trying to take care of babies and kids can really bad though when you're trying to keep your nerve under fire that the the role of the pastor is intense you know it is intense and people will come at you and you have to be the most calm person in the room you cannot have a failure of nerve when you're as a pastor and women are really equipped to do that over and over again it starts where I'm not very meant many pastors do a good job these days right yeah I don't even tell my wife that you know we don't bring home you might be probably the same you protect your wife from a lot of these difficult situations in the church we have to engage in conflict and you know go to go to battle and have people saying wicked evil lies about you you don't even bring that to your wife you come home with a smile on your face you eat dinner you play with your kids you love your wife you go to bed she doesn't even know about it because she she wasn't made for that you know you take the arrows in the shield you put it down at the door and you know once again there is sexual polarity there is God's good design at work and I don't I'm not in existential dread day to day I'm not you know about to have a nervous breakdown because someone said a mean thing about me where I know if my wife knew about some of the things people say about me she would be gnawing on it all day and let me add one thing to this less people misunderstand real quick women wives of pastors can turn into freaking bulldogs right so like there's a flip side to this so there's some that could lead to anxiety and breakdown but you will find that when your wife finds out people are talking smack about you giving a hard time she is ready to go in and destroy those people right like way more aggressive than you ever would be in a million years and as men you have to learn to live in tension yeah right we just live in tension all the time and that's you got to be okay and that's where we see a lot younger men failing these days they don't know how to deal with that and that's how they're feminine and so like I find with women is when they're dealing with conflict like that sort of intense conflict it can either be they can like shrink down in a way that if a man did we'd call them a coward we don't call women cowards when we do that we expect them to do that but the other side is they can actually just get way over the top aggressive and that's not good either that destroys an organization organization is level headed leaders whether it's the household the church or business it's like you said they're living their emotions in the moment so they get if based on that you could draw the conclusion that it is full force into the emotions I know you're saying to him a girlfriend the same way which he sees people attacking the online slandering me lying about me she gets really it can make it really angry and she wants to lash out at them sometimes a letter sometimes if like hey just chill out you know you little bit she's very similar to me like like me with going after people though just kind of nice to see but so but to take real back a minute though so basically you guys are against female pastors 100% but female to female mentorship like what Lori does is good and I like that a lot yeah yeah Titus to Paul's in the whole book of Titus the apostle Paul is training basically a bishop a guy who's going to go establish a bunch of churches on this 100 mile long island called creed and he tells them okay here's how to teach the young men here's how to teach the older men and into the older women he says you know have the older women teach the younger women to be workers at home to love their husbands to love their kids so hit his Paul's vision for pastors training people in their congregation is to see godly mature older women with some miles behind them taking younger women under their wing and teaching them how to be managers of their household teach them how to love a husband teach them how to teach their children and yeah we need we need if we recover godly patriarchy one of the things we will also inevitably recover is godly femininity in the home and the church and in society for sure a woman of that brother I just been on a kick lately using that it's been a while anyway it's a 321 so I want to wrap up I know you guys had to go a hard time cut here appreciate both of you guys time today everyone make sure you pick up Michael Foster's book on Amazon there's a paperback and I believe a hard cover too it's good to be a man he co-authored it with being on tenant I think from New Zealand check it out I got it myself recently I haven't read too much of it yet but I have skimmed through it and I will be reading it excited to read it it's a handbook for godly masculinity and written with I think enormous mission and purpose so looking forward to it also make sure you check out come meet myself oh why is that doing that oh there it is yeah come out meet myself many other speakers at 21 Summit this year including Pastor Michael Foster myself Elliot Hulse Jack Donovan Richard Grannon Kutcher Greg Adams Brian Foster will be there as well he'll be speaking at least the the patriarch convention and the 22 convention for women take it's a bottle and get one free so you bring a friend you can even bring your wife and send her to your girlfriend and send her to the 22 convention where we will mansplain her and make her great again so I appreciate both of you guys time today maybe we could do this again sometime it could be a lot of fun it's been a really good conversation thanks Anthony appreciate it everyone else next tuning in I'll see you probably next Saturday at 11 a.m. Eastern peace out