 Hi, this is Yoho Sopnibhartya, and my next guest is Tim Savage, Training Program Director at the Linux Foundation. Tim, it's great to have you on the show. Thanks very much for having me. I'm curious about these certification and all these training programs because when you look at open source technologies, anybody can go start learning on their own, but I see that as the same issue we have with open source project for the product. Getting started with open source is easy, but the two challenges come when you actually have to deal with in production. So just from the same lens, how do we look at these training and certification programs? Because anybody can get started with open source. I can go read documentation, but when I'm in working production, then I do need something that tells a company that, hey, you know what, this guy is certified to do this. Absolutely. One of the great things about open source in general is that it's open and that the community is trying to encourage each other to participate and to come up to speed. The advantage of certification is that you both know that you know what you're talking about and you feel comfortable and confident in what you're doing, as well as your potential employer. There's going to be so much that really needs to be learned on the job with any kind of open source deployment. A certification, it means that you have achieved that basic level, that you know what you're doing to a certain point and then we'll be able to get whatever else you need while you're on the position itself. Now let's just narrow down our focus on Kubernetes. Can you just talk about the kind of Kubernetes certification programs that are available and who are they targeted at? We have three different certification exams. The first one would be what we call the CKAD, Certified Kubernetes Application Developer. The idea behind this certification is such that a developer would know how to design and deploy and expose a cloud native application using Kubernetes. We have a CKA or Certified Kubernetes Admin certification. This is for those that are responsible for the installation, configuration, care and feeding of a Kubernetes cluster. Those would be the cluster admins. The third certification that we have is the CKS certification, which is Certified Kubernetes Security Specialist Certification. That is something that would be a follow-on after you get your CKA certification that security is a large topic and very important with everything including the cloud. The idea behind this certification is that you've been exposed to the various tools you might need to keep your cluster secure. What is the importance of having a certification in Kubernetes looking at this space today where there's a huge gap in supply and demand of talented people? Kubernetes is becoming very common. Most businesses today are relying on Kubernetes in their environment. As a result, they want to need to have people that are able to either deploy an application or maintain the cluster or help keep that secure. The certifications that we offer allow then the businesses to have that pool of people. We have classes for each of those certifications that is to prepare you. Where you could spend time to find the information to become well-experienced with Kubernetes on your own, the classes that we offer, the point of them, is that it's condensed and focused, and a lot of the legwork and time spent that you might waste looking at stuff you don't need. We've taken care of all that for you, and we have a focused content to prepare you not only for the certification but to be a good admin or a good developer or a good security person. The Linux Foundation keeps coming up with these reports every year which is more or less about the talent gap that we're talking about. At the same time, a few days ago we covered a story which was more or less like that open source developers, they still complain they don't get paid enough for the job that they're doing. A lot of people are still doing it as part time. So what role do these programs play in, because Linux Foundation's goal is, of course, to increase that option of open source, but if you don't have any talented people, what's happening is a lot of companies, they delay adoption of those projects because they don't find people who are able to do those jobs. So it's like chicken and heck situation. So what roles do these certification programs play in kind of accelerating the adoption of these open source technologies? Well, as with any kind of technology, there is going to be a balance between what you know and what you can prove that you know. The advantage of a certification for Kubernetes is that you have passed a practical exam that it's not something that you can get through by just reading, for example. You would have to actually work with the product, develop something, be responsible for some of these security tools. So the practical certifications that we offer, it means that you have actually done the job. So when you're going to hire somebody, of course, then you know they've done it. It's not just something where they're telling you a story. They have proven in a time constrained area. So you're under stress, you're taking the exam and you're still performing and you're passing that minimum amount of skill and qualification. So it's a real benefit for the employer because they know that this person is worth the salary that they're asking for. You folks have also bundled a new exam simulator with Kubernetes certification. What exactly is that exam simulator and how does it work, how would benefit those who take these exams? So we work with an organization called Killer Shell. They developed this exam tool and they did a really great job and it was a natural thing to partner with them because of the quality of their tool. What we have done is this is an exam simulator familiarization tool. So one of the things that I always try to emphasize is that this is a exposure to how the exam goes. It's not necessarily what you're going to see on the exam. The simulator gets rid of a lot of the concern and the tense nervous anxiety that people have taking exams. If you've never taken a practical exam before, not knowing, you would think, how do I study and what am I going to look at? And by having this simulator, the learner will then be exposed to it and they say, okay, that much I get. Now I understand what I will be seeing when I take the actual exam. Our classes and our certifications keep up with the state of the business. So in Kubernetes updates, we update our classes, we update our certification exam. So I always encourage people, as they look around at the many resources available, make sure that you're seeing accurate up-to-date information, not something that has aged because Kubernetes is very fast moving and there's a lot to keep up with. If you look at all these technologies, cloud-related technologies, especially Kubernetes ecosystem, things are moving so fast, new projects pop up on a weekly or monthly basis. How do you keep up so that, if somebody has taken a certification, I mean, in one year or six months or two years, it will not even be relevant. At the same time, you have to keep up with the changing technology. So can you talk about the balance that is there? It's not easy. I find that if you give up eating and sleeping, you have plenty of time to keep up with Kubernetes. But if you still want to continue sleeping at night, it's a challenge and it's something to plan for. In a lot of areas, things tend to be a little bit more static. You might have a 18-month to 24-month release cycle. Kubernetes still is on a three-month release cycle with minor updates happening every seven to 10 days. So especially in the security course, that means constant updating and constantly being aware that what was true yesterday might have changed today. Part of our curriculum, we expose people to places to keep track of this information. But a person, either as a developer or as a cluster admin or a security specialist, should program into their day what has changed, how does that affect me, how do I keep testing it? We actually deploy production-ready clusters in our class. So we don't use demos. We get the software, we do it live so that you know this is what goes into it. Sometimes things have some hiccups, but that's just like production. So we expose you to it and we show you where to find those resources because you'll need that in the constant, kind of never-ending update and just keeping track of the various projects that you can choose to put into your production cluster. In today's world, we live in a kind of global village where a lot of folks from different parts of the world, they are part of the community. So how do you first of all ensure that everybody not only have access to it, but they can also get certification irrespective of their political boundaries of their country, number one. Number two is we're also trying to work more towards equality where it doesn't matter whether male, female, LGBTQ community. So from the perspective of this course, how do you ensure that it's very welcoming, anybody can come and take the exam and certification? Inclusion and reaching out to the broad community is essential to what we do at the Linux Foundation. As far as what I can work with and control, part of it is constantly talking to people and hearing their feedback. We have online forums. I encourage people to contact me. And if there is something where, you know, there's some sort of confusion or somebody brings something up that we didn't realize, then we definitely address it and we do listen. And that's the most important thing, is listening to the community and really taking the time to understand what they're asking for. And then we do our best to be inclusive, regardless of where somebody might be coming from or their characteristics. Kubernetes may be the best thing after the slice, Bre, right? But this is a very obvious question, but it's more or less about, if you look at Kubernetes, the adoption has skyrocketed, you know. Soon there will be jokes just like Linux that, you know, it's powering even our toasters. So can you talk about why has kind of Kubernetes become such an important skill in such a short time? Because if you look at CNC, if it was like what, 2014, that's when the project was kind of created. Oh, absolutely. It's really about flexibility and agility. That instead of a monolithic tool that you go to a single vendor and you get what they sell you and you might have some input, but in the end it's what they ship is what you have. Kubernetes as an orchestration software allows us to modularize, to bolt on what it is we want. And as open source software, if there's a feature that we'd like, we can add it. If there's a bug, an undocumented feature, we can fix it. We're not reliant on other people. So between a large community that's working together to improve and mature these products and the agility necessary that every business today wants to take advantage of, that literally if it doesn't do what you want it to do with some time and effort, you can get there. And it's all dependent on how much effort you're willing to put in. You're not alone. Other people are doing the same thing. So you can form partnerships and everybody's then progressing together. So the attraction is the agility and the flexibility that it offers me as a business. Tim, thank you so much for taking time out today and talk about this simulation and also warning that this is just a simulation just like flight simulators. You're not flying the actual plane. But thanks for sharing those insights also about the challenges in the industry and how these certification programs can be held. Organizations find talented people. Thanks for your time today and I look forward to talking to you again soon. Thank you. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.