 A lot of paper. Look at you. Look at these opportunities for you to dress up in one day. Stay away from that. Worrying about that. I would have had a pair. You know what I'm saying? Start with opening up. I'll send you a video. I promise my wife I'd go get this operate. Oh, thank you. Yeah, send me the... It happens when you go away, honky. At least I know I'm invited. Ready to go, Jim? Yeah. Just kick it off. Oh, thank you, Mike. Thanks, everybody, for showing up. You're welcome. What are we going to talk about tonight? We're going to talk about TIFs. Tax-Increment financing. Sometimes they're referred to as TIDS, which is a tax-increment district, but either one means the same. What's in a TIF? Got it? Good name. It's a mechanism used for funding development and redevelopment projects within a city. It allows the taxing jurisdiction benefiting from the development to share in its cost. Cities and villages may create a TIF if 50% or more of the proposed district or area is blighted. There's a maximum life in a TIF for a blighted area of 27 years. It's in need of rehabilitation or conservation work. It's also 27 years. It's suitable for industrial sites, which has a 20-year life, and it's also suitable for mixed-use development, which also has a 20-year life. How does a TIF work? Concreation of the value of a TIF is frozen for property tax purposes. So, for example, if we draw boundaries around some property and say that's going to be a new TIF, whatever the value of those properties are at the time is frozen, and that's called the base of the TIF. That base still shares the taxes that are collected to all the taxing jurisdictions. The difference in the TID is that when we have new development, any increment of development that's over and above that base, the city gets to retain the full tax rate in order to pay back for any of the mechanisms that's used to finance that, whether it's borrowing debt or on a pay-as-you-go basis to a developer to incent the developer to put a new project on that property. Hey, Jim, could you give us an example? I mean, like how did Blue Harbor work in that respect? Well, that whole peninsula was a TID. So, when Blue Harbor came in, the city put all the infrastructure, water, the sewers, the roads, the parking, and it incurred about $16 million of debt. And based on that, when people developed down there, say, for example, Blue Harbor, all of the taxes was an increment to the base. The city, I think, put in $16 million for development. It paid $13 million for the land, Nancy, or something like that. So that was the base of the TID. So anything that went on the ground after that because there was nothing developed there was an increment to that TID. So the infrastructure that the city put in was not part of the increment? Correct. Okay. Once the TIF closes, all the taxing entities go back and then get the, what was the increment that the city collected then gets distributed to all the taxing entities. So at the end of that, they get the benefit of the development. But again, it's 20 to 27 years out. So do we save up for that? How does that work? I'm sorry? Do we save up for that? Knowing that in 27 years, we're going to have to pay a fair amount of money to a number of taxing entities? Well, we make enough money on the increment to pay back the debt we incurred to spur that development. Okay. So once that's accomplished, and again, I'll go through the TIDs and show you that, then it all goes back to all the taxing authorities and we get our 35%, which is roughly the city's rate of the total tax rate. On an ongoing basis. Yes, on an ongoing basis. How do we fund these TIF projects? We can bond for them, like we did at South Pier, city borrowed roughly $16 million to do the infrastructure. It could be a city lead pay as you go. In that instance, it's really where there are some grant monies that the city can get a hold of and give the developer the benefit of it. But we use the last one, which is a developer lead pay as you go. Where developer comes in, and based on the increment he's going to put in, we pay him so much back over a period of time. And the advantage of that is so the city doesn't have to go out and borrow money in order to pay the developer. We pay it as he develops the property and if he puts the proper increment in, he gets what we have promised to him. If the increment is short of what was projected, the developer only gets what he actually put in as an increment. TIDs we have in Sheboygan are TID 5, which is Paper Box. TID 6, South Pier. TID 7 is Nemshoff, the plant. TID 10 is Water Street. Development 11 is Washington Square. 12 is 8th Street Office Building. 13 is Landmark Condos. 14 is Festival Foods. 15 is Pick and Save. And TID E1, which is an environmental TID, is Northgate Property. What I laid out here, and you can see copies in your folder, we plotted from 2006 through 2013. The bottom blue line is the base of the TID. So when the TID was formed, and this is a small TID, but when this TID was formed, there's roughly a million dollars of value in that TID. You can see the increment, and if you look over to the far right, the increment's in thousands. It started out in 06 with 54,000. It grew to 144, and currently today the income is at 121,000. Now you have to understand that these TIDs are, for the manufacturing piece in these TIDs, the state puts values on them, and they put the value on the entire TID. So we get from the state, not for individual parcels within that TID, but we get a value for the entire TID, which shows the base and then the increment in that TID. And the state does that based on market value, if you will. They call it equalized value, but that's supposed to represent market so that every year these fluctuate. They use our assessment ratio and then take other factors that they use to determine market to put a value on the four walls of a TID, if you will. So as these things fluctuate, the city's revenue fluctuates in these TIDs as well. A good example is the next one, which is TID 6. TID 6 had a base value of $20 million. And you can see that on the right side, that in 2009 it hit its peak, the increment was $112 million. And as you go down to 2013, you can see the increment is now only $35,000. There were several factors that affected this. One was the sale of Blue Harbor. When the city negotiated Blue Harbor, they had some contracts in place where if the estimated value of the property fell below a certain value, Blue Harbor had to make it up on the real estate tax side. And it also had a contract where if it did not generate enough of room tax revenue for the convention center, which the city built, it made that delta up as well. When Blue Harbor was sold, both those deals went away. So we lost a fair amount of increment. When you look at Blue Harbor was built for $40 million and sold for four, we lost $36 million of increment the day it was sold. The condos that were attached to Blue Harbor were valued at roughly $20 million. And based on where Mark had ended up several years ago, it's currently at $10 million. So we lost about $10 million of revenue there as well. And the condos, what's the name of the condos across the river? Do you have the new ones? Marina Vista. Marina Vista, same thing, valued at close to $16 million, have a value currently today of under $7 million. So that TID has gone through some downsides based on the economy. And it put the TID in jeopardy of meeting its payments. So in 2012, we had two TIDs that we could amend that had more incremental value in it or cash to fund TID 6 so that we can pay the interest and principal on TID 6. Jim, you say since they're televising, we should probably have a little microphone. When you said it was almost in jeopardy of not making its payment, what did you mean by that? Well, based on the increment we collect, is the revenue that we use to pay the debt that we incurred. Okay. So just a straight line relationship. Yes. Okay. At $106 million, we were making far more increment than our debt payment. But at $35 million we're falling short by five to $600,000. Jim, I have a question also. Who establishes the initial, what do you call it, the value of the property? You know, you're saying who was initially evaluated at. X amount of dollars. Is that purely just construction costs or is there... Well, when it's brand new, it's basically on what it costs to build. And the assessor will after a period of time look at the revenue approach on commercial property. So we'll go and value it based on earnings. The manufacturing piece, our assessor does not do the state does. Tid 7, which is Nemtchev, you can see that there was a $3 million base. We currently have about $5 million of increment, and that tid is in pretty good shape. Tid 10, which is Water Street. We have maps up here. If anybody's interested, maybe I'm going a little bit too fast. If you want to see the tid and what's in it. Yeah, yeah. Go ahead. Let's go back to tid 7. I think tid 6 and 5. Tid 5, tid 5. Tid 5, for those of you that can see, really encompasses the shipwreck and paper box plant. This is South 7th Street clear right here. Georgia is up here. This is the plant. It was really set up for expansion. Really, as really the existing shipwreck and paper box makes up that entire district. You can kind of see that by the boundaries. A little bit of the street is in here. The majority of tid 5 is shipwreck and paper box. Any questions on that? Tid 6 is more than just salt pier. This is salt pier. It also includes the Kepso Building, the Highland House, rock mine industries. And then it goes up on the east side of South East Street. I mean, the west side of South East Street. It includes all the properties from the old power and light place up to the swing street with the school district. Then it follows along and it includes the Jim Reference Marina Vista Tangoes. It includes Marina Vista and the whole kind of walkway front with the marina at the land park and the beach. So it's, and then it also includes the pentare properties to the south of salt pier. So when it says salt pier, it's really more, the district is a lot larger. So when punctuation is happening in values, that's where you're seeing it from is based on what the entire district looks like. Chad? Yes. Would the YMCA be in that or is there on the other side of the street? The other side of the street. Okay. So there. And there again, they're not taxable. Right. So then we're up to 7. 7 is the NEM, when we say NEM shop, plant NEM shop chairs. It's really unconscious as you're enjoying the NEM shop. And this is what we call the last question of the municipal building. Municipal service building sits up here. This is New Jersey, Salt 22nd Street, and it goes back to the plant that's along the river. It does include some redevelopment, potential redevelopment parcels in the future if NEM shop was ever to expand out and really set up to help the NEM shop plant through expansion. So it's got the majority in the plant. Wildwood softball park would be right here outside of the district. So Chad, we would have like the improvements that we made would be streets and lighting and that sort of thing. Yeah, there was some with expansion plans and there were some waterways and some storm sewers that had gone through there and they had to be located as part of their expansions to expand over. So that's where our incentives are helping it go on to relocating the utility lines of the Wildwood NEM to expand. Got it, Jim. If we could back up just for a minute. From a TID 5 perspective, that currently is the only one that is slightly underwater. That TID was formed in May of 1991. The max life is through 2018. And it looks like that when we close this out in 2018, we'll probably have about $2,000 that will be shy on that investment. Not significant, but a couple thousand dollars. TID 6, that TID was formed in 1992. It's got an expenditure period for that TID that we could spend money to recoup in debt through 2017. It expires in 2023. We currently have it extended to 2023 and with the help of TID 11, which I talked about and we'll get to in a bit, we'll able, because that TID has cash in it, it has an increment that's greater than its debt. We'll transfer about $2.4 million to TID 6 and by the end of 2022, TID 6 will be hauled. So that's the good news, even with all of the shortfall in revenue. Did you explain the difference between the life, let's say it's a 27-year TID versus the expenditure period? Right, there's normally five years between the end of the TID and the expenditure period. Because if you spend money, the theory is that you're going to recoup that investment through the end date of that TID. So they normally end within five years of the end date, the expenditure period. So we could theoretically invest money or borrow money for further development in TID 6 with the hopes that we would get it paid back by the end of 2023. TID 7, again, NEMSHA. That was formed in 1994. It ends in 2021. This looks like that we'll probably close it in 2016 ahead of its life unless they come back with some further development on that site, NEMSHA, to expand. All of the debt will be repaid by the end of 2016 so we can close the TID out. There will be, it appears, at least on the projections, the projections that we used in these looking at the 2012 rate for 13 and the 2013 TID values supplied by the state. We projected those out through the end of the TIDs, not assuming that they would fluctuate, that they would go any lower or any higher other than if we knew that to be a fact if something changed between 12 and 13. So I would look at it as a conservative view of the future. But one never knows. Hopefully we're through the trough on values. But I know that we'll probably have a couple point differential in 14 as opposed to 13 because our assessment ratio went to 110%. And when we did these estimates, they were at 108%. TID 10, Water Street. This is Pennsylvania Avenue on the south side. Saltwater Street and North 10th Street. I mean, North Water Street and North 10th Street. This really includes the redevelopment of what would be called the Verifying Area and the Kingsbury property into those tax credit projects that the Northern has. The Guard of Toy Apartments are leading in that. Those little single family condo units that had developed along the North 10th Street. And then it follows the river all the way down. One opportunity that still exists in this area is this two-acre parcel which is our Kingsbury property, the redevelopment already currently owns that. The parcel, they've been working to try to get a development on there. Market rate apartments are some kind of tax-generated development. But the rest of the district is really these, there's a part, two-parts workers, Water Street part in them, this Riverside part that we included into it. And then it was amended later on to include the Walgreens as a corner of 14th Street. So this kind of makes up the whole thing. We're a little worried about this today as well. It was formed in 97. It ends in 2024. The city had borrowed a lot of money to reclaim the property because of the contamination. It has an outstanding advance to the general fundings of about two and a half million dollars as we sit here today. But it appears that by the end of 2023, we will be able to pay the advance back to the general fund, and this TID should be okay as we see it today. TID 11, Washington Square. TID 11 really starts down here. This is Washington Avenue, South Business Drive, and the railroad tracks on the south. On the west side, this is the parcel that Steve Schmidt has pulled some of his construction stuff on it. And these are the outlights for the Washington Square development. And that's really what has driven the development of this TID district was the redevelopment of Washington. The development of Washington Square from the Formal Chronicle Hill site, which was a way of refining. So the strip center and then all of the outlight development along here is included in this district. So it really goes from north open to open doors and down along the railroad tracks to the far south side of Washington. This TID generates about $300,000 a year more in increment than it does in debt. So we amended this TID to feed TID 6 to help pay that off. And over the life of this TID it ends in 21 and the payments go through 21. It pays about $2.4 million to help TID 6. Just a question for Chad. Chad is the property to the south of the Piggly Wiggly there. Does the city own that? No, this is a private developer that developed for Washington Square. Are there plans to add on there or is that just going to be held as green space? They're marketing it. So that will bring additional revenue into it. There's a culvers plan that's breaking around here. That's the wall credence. They should be breaking around first thing in the spring. There are new culvers down here. That's planned and they're working on the development here. So these parcels will continue to fill in as all blocks along Washington Square mall shopping center. TID 12, downtown office building. So TID 12 includes the downtown office building is the Nemchoff chairs from the Miller working on the east side of the above and beyond children's buildings. So the children's museum here. This is the office building. The district used to just include the office building and the parcels across the road to vacant lot and then where the white pay is. It was amended to include the grand state into that and then there was a ticket incentive when grand state was built as part of that. So the district really goes from the parking lot on the north of grand state. And then this is the Boston store actually is sitting on the south side here. This is the parking lot south of grand state. This is where, like I said, the left ticket is in those other businesses. And it includes the wild center on the west side. So that's pretty much the district. This TID, since it started, lost about half of its value. I think the peak in 2009 was about 11 million dollars. It's currently at 5.3. But having said that, it was formed in 2000. The max life on this is to 2027. And it appears based on the increment we have and the debt that needs to be repaid. We'll probably repay this by 2019. Yes. Could Boston store be added to that TIF since it's going to be empty soon? We've talked about that. There's a possibility that we could look at extending our older land if need be. Maybe, Chad or Jim, you want to explain? We'll get so many amendments to TIFs to add things in or take things out of, whether it's a sharing agreement or expanding the boundaries. Yes. So to amend the project plan, the original plan for this one where it has the financing and sending out the boundaries, is it four? Total of four. Total of four property amendments for model theories. So there is some opportunity there. The challenge is, what is the best time to amend it and include the property because of what you recall from Jim's previous discussion earlier, we're talking about capturing that new increment. So since Boston store already has a value as it sits today, does it make sense for that to be in the district now or should some development happen, should it be in the district at that time to capture more increment, to allow you to do more things, those are the things that as developers we need to weigh in on the city level to see where the best time it is to maximize the amount that we can do to try to redevelop it. So whether it's a new store or a completely new idea there, depending on when, we have to look at what the time is right, is it better to have a clean slate and just have the value of the land, is it better to have the land and the building, but the value is going to be higher so your increment is going to be less, so we have to weigh all those things as we're looking at this to figure out the direction of the development and some opportunity in this district. Then the other thing is, is some of these districts that may close out with a little bit more or cash value or maybe some interest in expanding them to include some of the streets. In the new districts, you'll see we've included the streets. In case we need to do infrastructure improvements, there will be another way of funding some infrastructure improvements versus setting up all the way all the time to the capital improvements program. So we're looking at that option as well. 1013. Right, right. So 1013 was set up for Landmark Square development. Really, and then it includes the Sheboygan senior community and that's pretty much what's in the district. This is pretty stable here and as Jim will talk about the numbers, but right now the Sheboygan senior community property is not passable. We all know that they're building a new facility in the town and they're going to be at some time vacating this. So I think there's some opportunity in this district point forward for some additional value if this was to be resold or redeveloped into some type of apartment or a scene of living or something that would be on the tax rolls that appears to be the direction that we're going. So this is really the district. This is another one of those districts that could be amended to include maybe some of the adjacent streets because there's some street issues that run on 6th Street in this area as well. This TID was formed in 2005. It runs to 2032. It had no debt against it. We just had a developer incentive that we needed to pay. It appears that that'll be paid off through 2019. So if there's nothing else we can do, this TID would end, but it goes on for another 13 years after that and has a very good incentive in it. So that's potentially something that in 16 or 17 we might want to look at so that we could do something there to further help that area. TID 14. These are festival foods. This is an orative that was created a few years ago, and you can see festival foods in this area is still under construction. It was really set up to redevelop the Walmart properties into the festival foods in that quick trip. This is a mixed use district. Under the mixed use versus redevelopment we have to have obviously a mixed use of land uses. So this includes commercial and some residential. So the Sunny Ridge development and the north building that the county just sold is included in that as well as residents of the Army National Guard Place, the Taylor Heights Festival Foods, and then it goes down to include, this is the old Century Building which you all know has some potential for the development of something going forward so we made sure we included that. But you can see in this district we've included the intersection of Urie and Taylor because the public works department has said that in the future they're going to have to do some major upgrades. There's traffic lights in that area so if there was an excess improvement we could potentially find some of those improvements as part of that. So we've made sure that we included the intersections in the building that were in this district. Under TID 14, that was formed in 2011, it runs through 2031. It appears that there was only a developer incentive that was to be paid in that TID and it appears that that will be paid by 2020 based on the increment we have in there now. So again this is another mixed use TID that we've got another 11 years of life and in around 17 or 18 we should look at that to see if there's anything we want to do with the increment to carry it forward. 15, will you just pick and save? I'll sign. This is the pick and save. This is the old Kmart. The area was all dated but this was where the new pick and save was built. This district is another mixed use so it includes some residential and commercial. It has the new auto zone that was built on the south side Wilson Avenue is included in there and then some of these other properties that may bring some additional value going forward. This was strategically chosen as well because I think this is the 20th over here and Wilson they have a flooding problem down there and the public works department had identified that in the future they had to do some major rates in the storm sewer to handle flooding in that area and not access increment in this district going forward that would be the possibility to do some of those infrastructure improvements as part of that. The district included some of the street right away to deal with the intersections. As you recall probably the last council meeting we came to the council to borrow or make an advance from the general fund to TID 15 to pay the incentive agreement. There is no debt in that TID but the increment that we had as you can see from the slide up here in 12 it was only 3.1 million dollars even though the value that was put in in the increment was roughly 7 million dollars by Pick and Save. So we lost value in the rest of the TID so with the revenue we took in we didn't have enough to pay the incentive agreement but as you can see in 13 it's gone to 7 I think it's going to drop almost below that because of Bethesda, that strip mall was bought by Bethesda and that's a non-taxing entity. So it looks like this TID based on the latest projections should be okay in 15 and 16 it ends in 31 and we're projecting it to be paid off or the developers agreement in 2026. So even though we had to borrow some money from the general fund this year to pay the developers agreement it looks like in the long haul it will be okay. And the last one is Northgate. This district was really set up strictly to deal with contamination issues prior to Northgate this is the Pigley Woodley on the north side of this strip mall surrounding that to deal with contamination issues is part of the development for that area. It includes the little car lot that's just in the south of the Pigley Woodley development. And then it follows this and you might say why is that originally as part of the deal for the developer at this time we were going to acquire these additional parcels up here and do some redevelopment on these parcels and then we're moving forward. But this is really it. So this is north 15th street here the polar word site is over there. Ironically these parcels that you don't see here are in the town of Shibuya as well as the polar word site. So this is one of the things where every mortar is narrowed to. But anyway this is the district. The date that was formed it was 2002 it ends in 25 2025 and it appears based on the debt we have today and some advances that are open against it it should close in 2021 and be okay. I think we covered this but it says TID amendments that TID may be amended by the plan to add or subtract property in that TID to extend the lifespan of the TID or to donate tax increments to other TIDs. So we've done three of those I think in the city with the TIDs that we've had. And TID amendments chat covered boundaries may be changed up to four times no limit on project plan amendments one expenditure period amendment if it's not cash flowing. I think these next set of slides I really covered as I went through them we can recap them pretty quick and again this is for your information. It shows the start date, the expenditure period the end date of the TID the maximum life higher estimated closure date based on our forecast it shows expected revenues expected expenses in the TID and I told you in TID 5 we'd do a couple thousand dollars shy and it shows the valuations that are based on a 2013 equalized increment value of 120,800 dollars and a 2012 tax rate of 23 dollars and 78 cents. TID 6 a lot bigger number again revenues projected are 15 million 536 expenses are 15 million 536 and again maybe a little conservative but we based the value of that TID going forward with a $35 million increment. TID 7 M-Shoff plant this shows revenue of 572 expenses of 475 so when we end it in that year there'll be excess revenue in that TID and that'll be like TID 3 when we closed out last year all the taxing entities will get their piece of the revenue over expenses when that TID closes out. So in this example we would share roughly a hundred thousand dollars we'd get roughly 35 and the other taxing entities would get the balance once it's closed. Water Street again closing that in 23 with an end date of 24 we break even on this one with roughly $2.8 million of revenue and expense. Jim how do you calculate the administrative fees? Is there a formula? They're normally set if we do put them in there's some in here that we pay an administrative fee to the state there's other TIDs that we put an administrative fee for the city to administer the program such as these last two and developer agreements I think it's like $7,500 a year that we put in for the administration of it. Why did some of these districts over time too and there's an exposure? There's an expense related to that. Washington Square TID that will end in 21 as you can see there's $4 million of revenue and $3.3 million of expenses so it says there'll be roughly $700,000 that we would share if we found no other use for that TID. 8th Street office building TID 12 again we've got a little more revenue than expense there so we would be sharing roughly $200,000 if we closed it in 19 the TID goes out to 27 unless we find another use. Landmark condos TID 13 $1.7 in revenues and we expect to close it out in 19 there'll be a million five of expense so there'll be a couple hundred thousand again we'd share if we found no other purpose and again this is closing out roughly 13 years early so there's definitely something that the city could look at doing there and extending the boundaries. Festival foods TID 14 again there'll be some cash leftovers roughly for almost $500,000 and that will close out 11 years early as well so again there's some opportunity for the city in the future. TID 15 pick and save again about $300,000 and probably five years of life left so there's other possibilities that we could look at in that TID as well and Northgate TID 1 again thank god it's breaking even that one's been a stretch but we're closing it about four years early advantages of TIDs increases property values it spurs private investment and development which is what we all seek in the city to create that value on the revenue side so that we can keep our cost structure in line incremental revenues reinvested in the TID district that also helps to stir more economic development and the benefits the underlying tax bodies at the end of the TID life and not only benefits the city to pay back the money it's borrowed to do the development but it also helps the other taxing entities with that increment once the TID is dissolved some of the disadvantages if the increment does not materialize as planned the city must find other sources of funds to cover the expenses and that was an example that I used a couple weeks ago underlying tax districts see no benefit until the TID is really terminated which is 20 to 27 years out TIDs may be used in areas where development would have occurred anyway again it's the chicken or the egg and increases the administrative burden on managing a local authority to manage these TIDs and the properties within them any questions? of course I have one quick follow-up one of the things that the PowerPoint did address and I just talked about it was the city has what's called a joint review board and that is made up of all of the taxing jurisdictions so the LTC the school district the county and the city and they all come together when we're proposing to do a TIF or change the boundaries or add a project in there they have to approve it because there's a lot going on so there is a process and procedure in place they have to agree on that take a vote in that type of stuff to make sure that they're on board you just can't go out and say I'm gonna set up a TIF here and not talk to the other underlying taxing jurisdictions is that a unanimous vote or no they could vote again I mean do you need the approval of each and every taxing committee isn't that correct Steve yeah it's a majority vote but it's a majority vote one other issue with respect to TIFs or a big picture of issue is historically cities and villages incorporated in these penalties have the power to create TIFs and that's because the process is development of communities in incorporated areas towns do not have TIF authority although over the last few years they've been pushing like crazy of the legislature to try to give authority to create TIFs and the issue is for instance and one TIF that was not discussed here because it was already paid off the industrial part if that was very successful TIF we used to generate revenue to create the industrial market in the city if towns are allowed to create TIFs if they're given that authority we're going to be in a very difficult competitive disadvantage because typically you're looking at more rural areas towns are going to be able to develop things like industrial parts if they have the TIF ability in competition with cities and villages so I know it hasn't happened yet but I see that there's some proposal to grant the town of Brookfield or something like that specific authority to create a TIF for a specific purpose I don't think it's passed but it's being discussed in the towns year after year in the legislature are pushing for authority to create TIFs if that happens it will have a great dis-incentive to the cities right now developer comes in wants to do a project city can offer availability of financing through TIF district town cannot so if the towns can offer TIF financing it's going to be a lot tougher to develop in cities the latest proposal in Madison is on the floor right now is that towns and villages greater than 5,000 people would have the ability to TIF which again I don't know the population of all the municipalities or towns and villages around us but could be a challenge there have been proposals over the years in the last 15 years Oligo-Huskan municipalities have historically been very strongly opposed to the ability of towns to have TIFs it's really a competitive issue if towns can create TIFs it's going to be much more difficult for cities to bring that up I think that the important point in all of this is that those TIFs that were created over time appear to be okay and will end successfully and that we didn't have to use taxpayers' dollars vis-a-vis borrow more money to throw at these to pay back the debt that's the goodness in all of this and some of them appear to be very successful as well and the spirit of the TID have developed the incentive or the development that benefits not only the city but all the taxing entities is there a limit on the number of districts that we can have in the city does any of the tax dollar that goes basically in the TIF the money goes back to pay all the expenses does any of that money go towards public protection and safety any fire, police, street maintenance nothing at all so then the burden for the rest of the community to make sure that we have enough money to supply them with fire protection, police protection to charge them a rate and they get the full city rate they pay the taxes but we use that to pay the debt the debt goes back to the debt and that's only the increment we still get up to 35% of up to the base and then that increment we get as well to pay back that so we're still getting something for general operations and then underlying base are there protections for the city built in I don't suppose they could over such a long period of time but in the developer lead pay as you go the development agreements where the developer would indemnify the city for losses or probably can't do that the only dissonance for a developer is that if he does a development and says I'm going to add an increment of X and he comes short of X and he gets paid on what he's actually put on the agreement do you foresee any new tits coming up not real close there might be some wiggling of boundaries based on some of the things that were brought up but none other than anything else thanks thank you