 All right today, we're gonna talk about how to end a relationship with grace with love a conscious Uncoupling and I'm really excited to have a very special guest in the house a dear friend of mine Catherine Woodward Thomas she wrote the book conscious uncoupling, which I refer to frequently so welcome in the house Catherine So good to be with you again Yeah You know you've been doing this work for quite some time and and I don't want to go back to how far you've been doing it But you've been helping individuals really not just help them attract love in their life Which was kind of you at the early stage of your journey But more importantly how to end a relationship as I said earlier with grace with dignity and Uncouple in a very conscious way So for some of those that are brand new to this concept of conscious uncoupling Can you give the clip-note version of what that is? Yeah, of course. Well, first of all I always like to say that your next relationship won't begin When you meet your next partner it will begin with how you uncouple Hmm this one You're bringing a lot of that baggage and the unresolved resentment or the defenses or the contraction into the next relationship it's going to really Impact that relationship so one of the benefits of doing this consciously and Doing it in a way that promotes what we call post-traumatic growth as opposed to post-traumatic stress Okay, it's going to be that you really can know and trust yourself that your next relationship Is going to be better than this one because of how you grew and what you learned through this experience You know, it's interesting. Oh, I'm sorry. That's okay. There's there's more I could you know, you could wind me up and I could talk for an Folks for those Catherine I've broken bread many a time before and we go down some nooks and crannies in Conversation to me That's the real juice in life when you can go down these nooks and crannies But you said something a moment ago which and for those that follow me know I've had a significant relationship and and and we are ending with grace with dignity with integrity conscious uncoupling and You said something though what we bring from our past You said resentments and anger, you know could be you didn't say anger, but a few other things, but you said contraction or And and I thought that was kind of interesting Is that exactly the word you used or and if you did can you expand upon that? Yeah, because I think all breakups are a crossroad and you're either going to expand to the next level of love Self-love or your capacity to love another and to receive love from another Okay, you're either going to expand because of this experience or you're going to contract away from life. Ah Gotcha, okay Many people who have spent years never really Letting anyone get that close again because once you've had your heart broken Yeah dreams crushed it it can be hard to get back out there again unless you actually turn that into wisdom depth lessons learned You know, sometimes someone is our dark guru if we went down a real path and they woke us up So let's talk about that for a moment because into some degree I experienced that with my previous partner was I Sense that there was not resentment or anything, but there was a she was deeply hurt from her past relationship I mean deeply hurt and and as much as I think there was this desire to open our heart There was also I think a challenge and even she said in the early stages. I have walls up And I think you know me coming in I'm like, okay. I'm gonna be your savior I'm gonna be the hero, you know I will show you that there are good men out there and you can love and yet and I did all those things and yet There was still a resistance and and she openly admitted she hadn't healed from her past experiences, right? Right and by the way, you know, there's this myth that time heals everything time does not heal Everything we really have to do the work and what we're up against Jonathan is We're up against our Biology first of all, yeah, because you know biologically, you know We're almost still back a thousand years ago or if you wandered away from your tribe You were you were gonna die so we feel like we're gonna die without that person and we go into a real threat state and Some of the threats are very real if you have kids and your custody's at stake or Someone's stealing money from you. They're hiding money from you. It says, you know, you're gonna lose your home So there's high threat high stakes in a breakup. We have a tendency to go to war. That is biological biologically based So and then also things like, you know, the brain is hardwired to keep us bonded with someone It's not organic for us to separate So I haven't caught up to our biology, you know, this whole debt till death do us part That was created in the middle of the 16th century when the lifespan was less than 35 years old You know, it's good as you hear that now and my father happens to be 98 years old So he will lift two lifetimes after that So and and even the happily ever after myth that we're all kind of captured by and really holding ourselves accountable to Like, you know, if you break up before one of you dies There's something wrong with someone here and let's figure this out You're screwed up. You're messed up. You had a messed up childhood. You're got bad character I mean, look, maybe, you know, all of us are a yes to that in some way. We're all growing together But to actually begin to normalize breakups, which oh by the way is what's normal for all of us Because it's you know, it's significant. So studies indicate that serial monogamy is actually the new norm It's very few of us meet one person Mate with that person and that's our person for the rest of our lives It doesn't really happen that way for most of us But inside of that expectation and inside of them the shame that we feel we don't actually We've never culturally learned how to do this. Well, how do our own biology How to work even with the legal process for those people who have, you know lawyers involved in this Yeah, right. So that's prone towards war also and You remind me of something So I had a dear friend of mine say to me last weekend when and my relationship lasted about 14 months and And I shared with her. I was married for 12 years I was in another relationship for six years and this one was a year basically and she goes Oh, you got your one-year relationship out of the way And and what she met was she was kind of describing her own past experience where she's had several Relationships one that was a year one that was three years one that was longer now She's since met her her her I believe she has met her life mate She's gonna go the distance with and she got married But I thought it was kind of interesting and what we taught what she said to me was You got a lot of growth For yourself out of this experience Jonathan You know, you got and I shared with her how much I got out of this Relationship and the quality of a relationship isn't measured by whether or not it goes the distance or even the time And I can honestly say I had so much individual growth From this experience Yeah, and you know, so we're kind of holding the complexity of We're advocates for lifelong love. We celebrate lifelong love we go into our Relationships very often with the intention of bringing the highest and the best that we have to offer so that we can go the distance But if a relationship needs to end You know and and relationships take two people so if one person wants to end that relationship Then that's the beginning of the end There's a way to do it. That's not going to do damage. That's actually going to foster maturity growth expansion and love so it's really about You know this whole thing about, you know, the the fork in the road and what's the difference between Kind of contracting and getting stuck and then seeing that play out as a limitation in love moving forward Which is you know, maybe part of your experience here the difference between that and actually having a heart that kind of breaks open a Whole new levels of what's possible between yourself and the other person Has to do with really owning your part. So this whole thing if somebody's angry Yeah, he has been very very hurt betrayed Cheated on treated badly That's a violation at the level of your soul Right, so you have to honor that you have just had that experience people do behave badly in love And the wounds of love go right to the core And so I like to say In conscious uncoupling even if it was 97 percent the other person's fault Okay You have to look at your three percent Okay, because that's where the gold is Yeah Times the way that we throw ourselves under the bus and set ourselves up for such bad behavior Is very covert in nature And it usually has to do with something like We don't negotiate our needs well Okay We don't even know what we really need. We certainly have we kind of bargained away our needs We somehow thought that, you know, maybe we'd love enough for both of us Yeah Over the red flags. I mean you're kind of jokingly saying, yeah, I thought I was going to rescue her That would be a red flag to really engage and of course, you know, we're all kind of captivated by the The myth and culture that we we're going to save each other and oh by the way again We do it in some way like love does heal us at the deepest level But there are probably questions to ask like well, what was your part in that? Yeah, you know in this I you know, it's funny and you know, I You know, I want to be careful because the person that I ended relationship Beautiful human being and there was no egregiousness like what you've talked about on either side There was nothing egregious And and quite frankly when those circumstances happen where there's infidelity. There's true abuse There's an abandonment all of those things then that relationship should end What's interesting in this midlife demographic that we're in and we'll let's not talk about those who get married for a moment Let's talk about those that do what we did. You know, we started dating We end up moving in together and or for people that have been dating for three or five years You know, and then it doesn't work out for whatever reason Um It's interesting because so few people I think very few people actually identified their own why they're ending it You know, like number one, I don't know if very many people truly identify Really with honesty yet for themselves of why are they ending it? um One of the things we did was we had a very honest conversation about what was coming up And it was a conversation that led to the agreement to separate Versus i'm just breaking up with you and i'm gonna ghost you which sometimes happens frequently today um Can we talk about that maybe that conversation? You know and how that should look and for others that are going through this experience Is this making sense by the way? Well, I'm walking the fine line of just having that generic conversation and then now being really curious Yeah You and your former partner, but there's a tenderness to that because you know No, no, I'm open. I'm open to going down that road and by the way for the folks that are watching this I'm doing this simply. I'm sharing my own experience Hopefully for everyone to gain from this and maybe even kind of look at yourselves and where you're at I'm open to sharing that Catherine great. I'd love to hear that and you know for as as much as you You know, these are complicated questions. So we're kind of you know Well, if if the law if I don't feel like answering I'll say uh taken the fifth So I'm assuming it sounds to me like she's the one who chose to end the relationship Yeah And was there something that she discovered about you or about herself that had her Change her mind about the relationship because I'm assuming she went in with the intent of going the distance Oh, absolutely the fact that she moved from Chicago to Los Angeles. We built a home together She was very much, you know of active participant in building the relationship What happened was um, she went to a funeral several months before Um, she came to this conclusion and and it stirred up a lot of familiar things in her life It was a big funeral. It stirred up a lot of emotions for her And and she was feeling um really disconnected living here in Los Angeles um Whereas she was before in Chicago and interesting enough you mentioned tribe earlier Her she was having a real longing to be with her. She's uh, Colombian So her cousins are called primas and she wanted to be with her primas And she wanted to be with more family that lives in in florida And she really recognized that she wasn't able to give 100 of herself to this relationship She was being torn between wanting to be with her tribe And the fact that she cared for me, but the fact that she recognized She had not really healed from you know from Family trauma and adult trauma that happened in her life as much as she thought she did She really came to this awareness that she couldn't be 100 all in in this relationship Do you know what her life goal is what her calling is in her life? You know, I think that's you know, she has a strong passion for travel I think she has a you know, that's her main she's by the way retired and self-sufficient So not like she has a a purpose or a job like many people have so for her travel is a huge passion for her um And I can openly admit i'm not the best to travel I'm kind of a i'm a nervous nelly when I travel and she's a free spirit when she travels So there was a slight disconnect that I could own in my piece of that And I take ownership for where I was deficient in the relationship I wasn't good for advocating for my needs. I I did it sometimes in a very needy or even whiny way um that probably You know diminished a bit of my You know, I don't want to curl masculinity But certainly there were times when I made requests that came from the little kid inside of me instead of the dolls So, um So from a conscious uncoupling perspective Yeah Um, I think we're gonna we're gonna turn that into an intention for you moving forward. Yes Okay, which is going to probably be something along the lines of I mean you are a man On a mission You really are you have a very strong mission. It's more than a passion Okay, it's more than a passion. It's actually a mission and a calling Okay, be a catalyst for greater levels of self love and love between one another And you are a model of that love and you that's what your life is organized around So I think to you know, you went into a relationship with a woman who's not doesn't share that commitment and devotion Yeah, and that's going to be a problem in terms of you know We're all when you have a mission. There's a certain sacrifice that comes along with that, which is A beautiful sacrifice. We all sacrifice for the things that we really love and we're here for like This is what my life is about Yeah, so there's there was a casualness that I'm hearing where maybe the criteria for going in was more about chemistry or connection or you laugh together Or you know, you had a beautiful heart connection Yeah, it was a misalignment in your calling and at the end of the day You would have had to give up your calling to figure out, you know, how to travel better How to help her heal and go to Florida like it just would have taken you off your mission to stay with her So I think in step one of conscious uncoupling, which is find emotional freedom One of the things that we're doing is first of all, you're pretty contained. You're not here, you know You know, it's not running down your face and all sorts of oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I I did cry You know, I mean I was sad, but you know, I I'll be candid with you I also in a way I recognized and I think this was a key You know to some degree I had, you know, uh rose color glasses, you know, and I but the same time I realized, you know what? She's right. We're not a good long-term fit And and although I was attached or you know, and to some degree I'm still attached in the sense that I care for this person I could take a step back and say, you know what? We're not we're aligned in a lot of areas, but not aligned enough Yeah Right. So that's so then in step one we look at what's your personal intention For for yourself your growth intention Okay, and what one two things I heard Jonathan one is that I want to invite you to consider taking your mission much more seriously You're actually a man who's impacted thousands of people Okay, you really are and that's what your life is about Okay I've known you long enough now to know that you are significant in that mission The the other thing that I want to say because people trust you and you you know, your heart is right there you do it for love and um And then and then the second thing is this thing about neediness And you know enough to know that neediness first of all neediness is repelling Yeah, all of us, right? It's just kind of yucky Nobody wants to parent everybody wants to partner but not parent. Yeah, I didn't want to have sex with a three-year-old, you know So so you have to so, you know but The other side of that is that the needs that you have to be supported seeing heard valued chosen prioritized matter Yeah, your needs matter and they matter big time So one of the things we want to do is to separate unhealthy needs from healthy needs And have you become much more entitled about your healthy needs because when you're not that We tend to slip into neediness because we're not actually giving ourselves the the credibility And we're really standing so when you're going in and you're assessing Whether someone is a good partner, you know what you need from somebody And you're able to negotiate those needs up front You know, it's interesting, you know, as a self-aware as I think I am I'll be candid I'm still scratching that the belly of the ant so to speak Because I learned something new every day just in a variety of different ways but more importantly about myself The contrast that was happening in this experience really gave me so much more clarity Of how important certain things are for me in the very early stages of relationship To be really solid in that instead of going Oh, I hope that changes. Yeah, exactly. And and there's a Catherine. There's this kind of fine line between you know You care about someone you see potential, but at the same time, you know If it's not there in the early beginning chances are it may not be ever there So holding, you know Hope and and that's not even the right word projecting or whatever it is And I see this happen with my my female clients. They project this, you know, vision of the future in which I did to some degree It's really having that clarity. I I now have that clarity and how to approach it in a much different way going forward Well, and I think that what you're describing is the wrong use of positive thinking Okay elaborate on that because you're probably right Well, and I think it has to do it's connected to the needs conversation that there's some way that you're casual about your own needs If you go in thinking, oh, you know, that'll change what you're basically saying to yourself is Don't really need that too much, you know, don't need what you need You know and and you're kind of you're kind of putting at risk or yourself in that vulnerable position of you may be Creating an agreement with someone and locking your life into not getting your needs met So what that looks like is someone who's, you know, bargaining because they're and this is not your Your your former girlfriend, obviously, but someone who's dating. Let's say someone who's very narcissistic Yes, it's always about them. It's always about them and they're so You know, there's a lot to get when you're with someone like that because they're the life of the party and they're fun and they're charismatic and they're interesting and You know, they're up to really fun things and that confidence I mean for somebody who doesn't have confidence always not great to write the coattails of that confidence So you can very easily just bargain away the need to be seen Yeah, they need to be energetically held They need to be able to count on someone to be there for you when you need them Like it very easy to skip over those needs and I think when your heart is bruised from a breakup It's kind of a wake-up call Like, okay, let me reassess what I actually need You know, when you know what your core need is what you're the deepest need of your soul Which usually has to do with what you didn't get in childhood when you know what is Very often you can then forgive the little stuff, you know, maybe someone isn't as you know You know, they don't they they're a little flabby around the middle or maybe they You know, they you know, they have like you don't exactly have the best Connection when it comes to sense of humor or something is a little bit, you know left of center But when they give you the love that was missing Or when you feel like that person has your back no matter what Yes Your your parents didn't maybe maybe they know how to attend to you in a way that you didn't have when you It's like such soothing joy in your soul that you kind of go. All right. Well, that's them You know, like, okay, they're being quirky that way again. No big deal Reminds me of ariel's book wabi sabi love, you know talking about the she talks about the poppy seed bagel is one of her many stories, but it's just accepting the peculiarities because you're getting so much fulfillment in other areas in the relationship, but that's continue and I love ariel for sure I hadn't actually read her rabbi sabi book. So I'd love to hear more about But I but but this has to do with knowing what your core needs are Yes, well dating is about assessing does someone have the capacity to meet those core needs You know, I really now is I got a chance to reflect back and I think that's another Maybe a different step in in conscious uncoupling, but as I really reflect back on the relationship And again, there were so many good things and really there wasn't I wouldn't even characterize anything as bad Like I may I can honestly say there was nothing bad. It was just a misalignment I Recognize now the importance of what my needs are going forward. Yes, and and and the and you even shared at least with with For me, you know, this is a passion for me, but it is a calling as well And so any future partner that would be important to have that in in in our dynamic Um As well and and I appreciate you pointing that out because I want to really stand in that and and own that piece for myself And that's another piece of awareness like saying, okay, this is important And in any new relationship that this has to be discussed um Because I don't think if someone's on board with what I do and I I think we have a mutual friend Evan Mark Katz and I know his wife is so supportive of his mission in life, which is somewhat similar to mine I've witnessed it. In fact, she could recite his material Like I've been in parties where she's reciting his material Wow, I really admire that, you know, yeah, that's beautiful. So to allow yourself to really up level You know, how you're how you're what you're standing for for yourself Now the other piece of it is is step two Has to do with that three percent. It's the reclamation of your power. Okay, right? Reclaiming your power in your life is all about looking at that three percent. So Look, you're not making her wrong and that's just music to my ears But most of us we make the other person wrong. I mean, that's what's really true. Yeah It's because they are wrong. Okay. So let's just give it to us. I don't live in a night You know my previous partner and that believe me, I threw her under the bus But I've since apologized because I realized it was 50 50. It wasn't 97 three Well, and from a calling from a conscious uncoupling perspective calling in the one too It's really powerful to just say 100 100 percent is mine because really that 100 percent Like if I'm with a narcissistic person just to kind of okay that one The fact that I'm sourcing my value By the quality of my listening By how seamlessly I meet every one of your needs with very low expectations of my own How I disappear my own feelings and needs even to myself. I'm more Aware of the feelings and needs of the other person You look at that three percent you got your hands full on what you've got to work with Because that has to change you have to graduate from being that person the person who is the match for This, you know, the narcissistic person So we're looking and you know, well that statement that you got to take 100 percent is going to piss off a lot of people I'm in agreement with you by the way take 100 ownership Of your part, but really just take a hundred percent of it not Stop pointing the finger at the other person Do you know what I do and I do understand this, you know, and that's why I say let me give it to you that the other person Was disgusting and shameless horrible and sociopathic or whatever you want to say about them When we're talking about taking a hundred percent what you're really doing Is you're standing for your future Okay, okay, so conscious uncoupling is about having a future That is a departure from your past and most of us when we have a breakup We're just playing out old patterns Been here done that yet another person who's not showing up for me yet another person who's not going the distance yet Another person who's leaving me, you know, it lives as part of a story So unconscious uncoupling when I say like you could really have a whole breakthrough in love like I'm no I'm like no Kidding like the love that you don't even know exists is what you're standing for And the only way things are going to change is if you almost lose interest in the in the narrative about the other person If I ask somebody who's broken up with somebody they're going to tell me their breakup narrative It's going to be all about the other person Yes, they were immature. They were sociopathic blah blah blah And that's might be all true, but what were you doing with that with that person? Out of all the people on the planet, how is it that that's the person that was in your bed? The only place you're going to graduate And know that you can trust yourself now you're talking about your girlfriend. I can't talk to her right now So i'm just going to you know say this as a disclaimer because I might be totally wrong But she's coming into the relationship. She's saying I was hurt before Yeah, and so i'm not going to open my heart up. I've got a wall up So there's a limit now on what is possible. Why because she's not really yet identified her three percent And what she needs to do differently to make sure that that never happens again Her only ability to make sure it never happens again is to not really let love take root I'm just going to go off to another step. I'm going to love somebody else now. Suddenly I love my relatives more than you Like do you know what i'm saying? That's what it looks like to not know your three percent So it's fine. She gets to do that. Nobody has to become you know more conscious She'll probably go and have a great time with her relatives and it will be very healing and You know and then she'll go off to the next adventure. So we all get to choose But if you're really a stand for love You've got to know What your three percent was so I don't know how she was hurt But the three percent is usually pretty so I skipped over the red flags I minimized my own intuitive knowing I didn't ask the right questions because I didn't want to rock the boat I never spoke up for myself because I lacked the courage that I might piss that person off if I did And that would kind of you know remind me of my father when I was a kid But you know and a lot of times we do this from a psychological perspective Oh, I can't speak up for myself because my father would go into rages. No, we're grown up now We weren't responsible for what happened back then But we are responsible for how we're showing up now and the choices that we're making and if we showed up From a lesser version of ourselves From like what I called in a pseudo safety strategy Oh, so I'm going to create false a false sense of safety By you know never speaking up for myself and then I'm not going to risk any kind of you know Breakdown between us, you know, all those are just crashing burns waiting to happen You said I want to identify something that really stands out in the piggyback It's it's really knowing what you stand for in love. I mean at least that's what I heard but more importantly Being really clear as to what do you really want in a partnership? Like and I think I think there's a lot of confusion around just that That what that container looks like because for those of us that were in our 20s and 30s That maybe you know the idea was I know I always grew up with this blueprint because I'm a tail end baby boomer Is go to college get a job meet a girl get married buy a house start a family. That was my blueprint After 40 going to divorce. I don't know what that blueprint looks like. I don't even know what a relationship Container looks like I know I want companionship. I want connection. I want sex But what does that look like and I'm I'm saying this Catherine I think this is the huge confusion That most everybody in midlife is experiencing A lack of understanding of what the container of a relationship looks like if it's not married and even then we go in Cavalier Lee into marriage given that the fact that 75 percent of second and third marriages fail There's obviously lack of awareness there I think most couples don't know what the container of commitment looks like And what they need from that container? Yeah, well, we're in uh, you know consciousness is evolving rapidly Okay, and relationships are evolving rapidly And the hunger that most of us feel in our 40s I think even the young people are feeling this hunger. We want to love this and equal We're both holding power We're we don't really want to be in a role-based relationship where there's no authenticity authenticity is huge hunger We want to know how to Um Be able to cultivate a trust a trusting relationship where we're aligned On our mission where we're in the same universe. This is my best friend my spiritual partner great You know movies, you know coming in from both sides mother and father, you know, you know Both partners bringing in lots of money So we want a lot and that that hunger is driving us to evolve because we don't yet have the skills to create that We don't have the skills to be able to navigate love Such that we would feel satiated and happy. We don't even know what it looks like is what you're talking about Yeah, you know, I I continually say we are we are swimming in an environment and I'm again My demographics is mid-life the after baby making years before retirement We're swimming in a demographics that have weak emotional maturity and weak relationship skills you know and and No disparagement against women, you know oftentimes they think they're good communicators I can be candid with you a lot of women have duct tape over their mouths and they don't communicate their needs They don't can communicate very effectively and then they're with partners who are avoidant personality types that are emotionally Constipated, you know, we have a lot of dysfunctionality trying to figure this out Without any roadmap Well, there are some roadmaps. So there's a lot of emerging teachers and I think you know at some point In order to evolve beyond Unhealthy patterns, we're gonna have to make the decision to become students of healthy love Yes, right. So, I mean that's calling in the one is a journey. It's not just manifesting that person It's knowing what to do with them. You find them, right? Actually where Thomas calling in the one is the new one. This is the new one. Oh, that's a new one. Oh, I need to get Anyone it came out. It's a third of it is now up-leveled Okay, okay. There's I see much clear I actually tell you how we need to grow on an intrapersonal level which is in our relationship with ourselves Which oh by the way is one of those is how do you hold your and contain your own needy child? So that you're not speaking from that self you're speaking about that self but not From that self because if you're speaking about that self as opposed to from that self You're going to create a very different relationship with the person you're with um, and Go ahead. Well, and then Now that we kind of all know and we want to go right too But you've got to actually know your own filters. You have to know what you feel You have to know your needs. You have to differentiate unhealthy needs from healthy needs You need to know what your projections are there's a lot of inner development And that's what's been missing and that's why we're misfiring in our relationships So I want to share two things with you first off I have a dear friend who's in a relationship with a man who's been going to therapy for 20 years and he really did it to learn himself about himself and And there are some prickly parts of his personality But because he's introspective because he seeks help on improvement They they're able to navigate this relationship with a little quite a bit more ease because he's aware of it So this leads me to a quick story. I want to share with you There was a little instagram commercial that went around a few months ago Where three women or young women are sitting at a table and they're talking about this one woman's date And she goes I met this great guy and he's got a great job and he's tall dark and handsome and blah blah blah blah And they're like the women are great like she goes, but I'm not going to see him again And they're like, why wouldn't you want to see this again? And she says he doesn't do therapy You know and as a therapist I'd like your take on that commercial because I think there's a lot that's implied there Um that really has some nuggets in there. I'd like your take on that commercial, you know, I think that The what we're looking for is good character Okay, and what we're looking for is someone who has the capacity to love And also is uh available to commit to love Okay, so it's lovely if you have someone who does therapy. I don't think therapy is the be it and end all I I'm actually truthfully, I'm a little disheartened that in the in the Conversation that we're collectively having that we're so top-heavy with trauma And we're not as interested in what's really true. So for example, right? Right. So so for example, if you're raised in a home where you're neglected There's a lot of heartache to that. You were kind of on your own You made the decision when you were very young that you were all alone No one was ever going to be there for you and inside of that consciousness We tend to show up in very habitual ways that generate more of the same. We isolate when we're sad We cut people out of our hearts the moment that they hurt us and disappoint us rather than Turn towards the relationship. We'll put self-protection first, okay Or maybe we're not really vulnerable. So we create a whole relationship, you know with our, you know friends That's based on us giving to them Without the expectation that they're going to be there for us or we get involved with married people who predictably won't be there for us Okay, that we kind of design our lives inside of that consciousness and in therapy You know as a therapist when I was sitting with people I very often made the mistake of Sitting with them and getting into the trauma. What did that feel like? Like in your home You know, what's the experience? Let me try and have a corrective experience because you're not alone. You're with me You know, there's almost like such tenderness around the trauma But I'm not actually challenging the story as it lodged in my body Really true that you're all alone What's really true that no one will ever be there for you? Well as an adult I can say well, I didn't come here to be alone. I came here to have love That's my mission is to create love with people and I'm an adult and I can learn new skills I can you know learn what it looks like to create Relationships where I get to deepen over time I'm not alone and then I might learn how to mentor that little five-year-old self sweetheart. You're not alone I'm right here with you So I'm very interested in the future that we're committed to creating That kind of pulls us up and out of the muck of that traumatized self And inspires us to begin to identify new ways of relating that are going to generate a different experience So I differentiate between the traumatized self And the true self and I'm actually forming a whole I have a group of therapists who are studying with me And I'm forming something called future focus therapy where we're Mental in our so when you're saying we don't even know what healthy love looks like That's a developmental dilemma. What does it look like? What does it look like in my life? How am I dating inside of knowing exactly what healthy love looks like as opposed to Dark over here. Hope. Yeah, it all works out So what's this new therapy called again future focus future focus I like that. I'd like that and and again, I'm I'm You know, I'm not here to disparage therapy or whatnot But I also see some people just continually reliving their trauma and therapy and they're not really growing past it That's why I'm more into personal growth self personal growth self-help spiritual work Because I at least for myself speaking I want to grow past my negative patterns and my limiting beliefs in my life and just be aware You know be aware like oh my little kid was acting out in that moment, you know and like, okay I'm aware of that And also the capacity to self regulate my emotions Way more so than I ever have before Because I'm choosing to do Forward facing the fact, you know forward thinking, you know, then backward thinking. Um, so So in this conscious uncoupling, we've talked about another, you know, a number of different things What else can we look at in conscious uncoupling when two people separate You know and and begin to have lives in the future. Do you think that they should be friends with one another? What are your thoughts on that for example? So the first self conscious uncoupling, you know contrary to what gwyneth kind of popularized when she kicked it into the lexicon. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah she so So she kind of modeled one aspect like this is what it looks like to be friendly to your person to even be friends with your person But when I originally created it I created it as five steps and the first three are internal So we've been talking about steps one and two Steps three goes even Into a deeper dive like what is that consciousness that you've been generating life from particularly your intimate relationships When you are disappointed when you feel threatened How are you showing up in a way that's generating more of the same? And what's really true about that? So usually the meaning that we're making of the breakup the story as it lives in Are somatic not just in our very you know adult minds because you're being quite a grown-up about it But there's quite but there's probably a part of you It's like you know Inside of it of kind of a really sad story like no one's ever really showing up for me So so we're we're working with that self and we want to know the conversation We want to know the age of that self We want to know You know when you get disappointed You know that's where you go and then that part of you if you just let that part of you run the relationship It will end up creating evidence for that story one of the reasons why it's hard for us to outgrow The patterns and why people stay stuck so long in therapy is we're constantly covertly creating evidence for the story And they say and and they say you know, oh it's we do that because it's a he you know We're healing. I'm like I'm sorry. I never recreated the worst wounding of my childhood and then thought wow I'm getting so healed here. This is amazing. Oh, it's a rewounding experience. It's agony. It solidifies the story So what does it look like to create outside of that story? So I call the story your source fracture the original break in your heart and we look for well What's really true and how do we mentor the self in the body to what's true? And how would you be showing up differently and then we go back and do what I call a soul to soul meditation Or you're literally imagining your former partner and you're saying look I know I showed up in a way. I entered with very low expectations. You'd be there for me I positioned myself like the giver in the relationship and Like more than the receiver and you know, frankly, I was over giving to prove my value or sourcing my value from that The truth is is that um, I'm I'm actually I am a vulnerable person who needs reciprocity I'm so sorry. I never gave you a chance to get inside my inner world But I want to thank you for the growth opportunity and I know that we both came here to love and be love Let it be so let it be blessed and let it you know happen in my life. So it's just you're just correcting Whatever, I can't be the martyr. I can't be the damn martyr and say you were wrong and I was right You're waking up with that's what you're really Being a victim being a martyr Running I'm saying this tongue-in-cheek, you know But I really like that. What's that called a soul? Soul to soul meditation. Well, is that part of conscious uncoupling? Yes. It's in steps three Okay, got it. Got it. Got it. Yeah, it's in step three So and so the last two steps. Yeah, let's do the last two Okay, so that's how you're now dealing with this other person. So I'm going to tell you that the worst two breakups of my life Or or let's say I had four. I've actually had four really traumatic breakups in my life So and some of and two of them were professional breakups. They were very difficult So we don't always have this problem with just romantic love, you know break. Oh, yes Yes, yes. Oh, I've had a traumatic professional break I've had two Really three actually if I really own it, I've had three traumatic breakups. I want to hear this now Okay, well, so So with some of the traumatic breakups, they're really traumatic because people actually behaved really badly Like you never want to talk to them again because they revealed that they their character In the way that it ended and breakups are a litmus test for character So, you know you and your former girlfriend are breaking up in a very kind way because you both have good character I mean, you might feel like, you know, f u. I wish you, you know We'd get sick and go to bed for a week and you know all sorts of negative Let me Because you know, it's normal to get angry when somebody's violated us and we want to hurt the person who hurt us All that's human But, you know, so if somebody behaved really badly, you might not want anything to do with that person How are you going to consciously uncouple with them? So you're going to create what I call, um, you're going to hold that person as a dark guru You're going to give meaning to the lessons learned. You're going to change your life totally Because of that person, not in spite of that person, but because of that person You're going to take complete responsibility You're going to hold them in a blessed pace. Maybe all be blessed and the biggest my favorite prayer is may we all get what we're due I'm going to just give it to the universe. Do we all get what we're due? And whatever debt you think is owed to you give it to god You just give it to the universe, you know And and a lot of us do have like if you were stolen from there's money owed you all that just say, okay I'm going to give this debt to the universe. I'm going to take responsibility for being overly trusting turning away from red flags Whatever it is. I'm going to plug up those holes. I will never again I will always from this moment forward But in some way what we're looking for is how can you be at peace with that person? Yeah, that's right So so that so the intention that you're setting in the relationship might be that our children have a wonderful childhood Or the intention might be that we transition into lifelong friends Or the intention might be that this is my dark guru who woke me up. Thank you Leave my life now never need to see you again But thank you so much and then you know, you're you're making amends moving forward step five is uh And also in step four, which is becoming a love alchemist. It's weaving All of the negativity particularly if someone is in your life You're going to co-parent with that person and finding a way to disappear the resentment and begin to weave generosity between you And begin to build the new form of family or invest in a new direction that you're going in Step five is about clarifying your new agreements With that person. Okay leading the agreement, you know when you're lovers with someone you kind of take on The assumption that you're going to be there for one another when you're having a hard time no matter what You know, they're the most important person to you So you want to make that conscious? And you can do it as a soul to so where you bring them in and you say i'm not going to be there for you anymore I'm completing that agreement. You know, I'll be your one of your support people But I won't be your primary support person. Oh, yes because I see a lot of people end relationships and All they do is they transition from a day-to-day physical to They end up having like almost an emotional Affair type of relationship where they're dependent upon each other almost as each other's therapist and And all it does is prolong the actual healing process for one or both of them. I see that Yes, exactly. And then there's this fallacy that oh, well, I'm open. No, you're not you're still engaged in a In an affair with another person Um, and I'm using it in that terminology You know, I've been blessed my ex-wife and I You know it took years to heal that relationship and now we have a very cordial relationship And we more so now because of the passing of connor, which you're very familiar with And we have a great relationship with each other and sometimes we lean on each other because we have 30 years of history together You know and and the love, you know to the extent that the relationship didn't work We still could be friendly and then my other significant relationship. She's like my big sister You know like we transition to family and we have all this history together But we don't talk on the phone every day and are dependent upon each other It's just occasional and I suspect in this relationship even though it's much shorter I want the best for her and I want to hear about it on occasion and vice. I hope she feels the same Um, but I don't feel any need to use that person as a support person You know, which I I see so many people do and I don't believe that's healthy Well, so you're conscious of needing to create a new agreement with her, you know And if we look at relationships all relationships are really is a series of agreements That inform the expectations that we can have of one another and a lot of people will break up You know, it's that phenomenon you break up with somebody you think that you know Now the divorce papers all done But now he starts dating someone new and you feel enraged again all over again. Why are you? Right, you're not even married to that person anymore Because on a primal level you didn't actually make it conscious That you're both free To take new lovers to have new experiences moving forward So we just kind of slow that down. We ritualize that we might do a conscious uncoupling ceremony but also for people who have Children or shared community We do look also at like what are the structures you're creating, you know If you go to a divorce attorney when you're all upset They're going to be looking at what your rights are. They're going to be looking for your perspective And you know, you're the client so they're going to get as much as they can and you can get very Influenced by that person and you can really, you know tank Your relationship with the person who you have children with Not this is not going to go well So what you want to be doing ideally is, you know, finding legal professionals who can hold the holistic Goal of we want our family to be happy even after family A happy post divorce family Who's transitioned into a new form of family, but everybody's got to be well So we have a mutual friend, uh, Dennis Cohen who is a master Or I'd leave one of the few people on this planet that truly Holds hands for couples in the most loving way and while I'm sure it doesn't work out all the time I I'm blessed to have this person in my life Very few people know how to help couples the way Dennis does, you know Dennis actually was our mediator for mark and I Okay, and it was in Dennis's office that I think conscious uncoupling was born because in the middle of our um Mark and I separating our assets Mark surprised both Dennis and I by saying He was he was entitled to 10 of the royalties for life for calling in the one because we were married When I wrote the book and he just was such generosity said. Oh, no, no, no I don't want any of those royalties Catherine worked so hard on writing that I don't think to take any of those He just started said it's like okay And then it was my turn a few weeks later when he lost a job and then I called him and I said Don't worry about child support while you're looking for a job And I went out and figured out how to earn more money to cover him. So we just started Being we created a culture of kindness between us. It was in Dennis's office Dennis came and then studied to be a conscious uncoupling coach with me No, I know I You know, it's interesting because and and we only have a few minutes left You know, it saddens me how adversarial divorce is And and here you have children together, you know and and and I look at the early stages of my divorce and it was adversarial to some degree By the time Connor passed away I'll share something with you. You know, I was paying support to her I chose to continue to pay it even months and months later because She did so much. I feel like not that she was earned, you know, she was owed it or anything. I did it because It was because I genuinely care about this person and her well-being And I you know your work the work of Dennis certainly my work is all about raising consciousness How can we do things from a heart center place? How can we do things from love? Instead of this nasty Adversarial way and and even if it's not marriage if it's a breakup of one year or six years or 10 years How can we do things from a heart center place? We're both people You know, you don't have to feel like you win, but you don't want to feel like you lost You know, that's so beautiful and I I didn't know that that you did that And if I had known that I mean, I think Connor passed after conscious uncoupling was written I I would have included that In in consciousness. Oh, yeah You know, it wasn't for a long period of time, but it just I did think It's so kind. So I think it's about, you know, a lot of us Um Look when you lose someone when you go through a breakup, it's like your job journey Your what journey? Job remember Job in the Old Testament you lose. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, right. So certainly you losing Connor Was your job journey Like life taking the most precious thing away from you You know, and so we go into these like deep deep sadness And to affirm the goodness of life in the face of that Is what makes us spiritual giants so we study spirituality for years Just so in that moment We can actually show up and generate love into the world So well said I I I actually attribute I I think of what happened while I was going through a divorce and and losing my professional identity some 15 or 17 18 years ago as a catalyst for change for me And and I went through the dark night of the soul during this period of time or as Allison calls it the tunnel Allison Armstrong and and going through all those experiences has Helped me become You know what jack Nicholson said, you know, I better man You know and and I'm really grateful for all the painstaking experiences even Connor Because he birthed, you know, he birthed the book and you were you're at the back of the you know, here's the book and here's your You know right there in the back, you know, he helped birth this and And it's interesting because I'm tested on self-love every day, by the way And even this breakup I think is a reflection of doing the work So I can experience this with you know with grace with dignity and do it in a very conscious uncoupling way Yeah, so well Catherine I'm just so excited to be able to connect with you. I wish you still live down the street. I'm going to Agape on sunday You know, I remember when we you know, which uh, you know now you're up in san francisco's or the bay area So I don't get to break bread with you, but I'm glad we're able to do it this way Folks, um, I invite you to check out both her books. Uh, there's copies below Or in my description in the jonathan recommend books, there's conscious uncoupling, which the new version Calling in the one i'm going to put your url to your website Is there anything else you'd like to share with anyone or direct them any place if there's something new? Please i'll make sure to put a A link below. Thank you. I mean we're doing we do a lot of Skill building workshops actually for free So if you couples or for individuals it's for individuals mostly I am actually just putting the finishing touches on an e-book called conscious recoupling because a lot You know the development that we're teaching and conscious uncoupling sometimes makes it possible for people to get back together So that happens more often than not and um, so we're we're doing that too But i'm really committed to helping all of us to evolve our capacity To uh, really manifest the lives that would light us up the relationships the love and the life That we're longing for so uh, if anyone wants to just sign up for any of the starter kits I have or anything then you get invited to those free community calls Okay, well i'll put the link for your website. By the way, I have one last prediction I have a prediction. Oh good I believe conscious recoupling Is actually going to start I I believe we're going to see more couples Actually go, you know what I really passed up on a good partner Maybe I do need to do some work on myself. Maybe I need to look at that three percent Maybe if I take my part in this and they do the same You know, we've had a lot of years invested with one another, you know I see conscious recoupling I see that more in our future. Yeah, I can see that too. Thank you for that blessing. Thank you All right, kathryn once again. Thank you so much I'm going to reach into the camera and give you a big gigantic jotham bear hug of appreciation For those watching again, check out all the links below to kathryn's work and uh, please connect with her I know you will be blessed if you did so everyone have a great day. Thanks so much Bye