 So yeah, welcome. If you're wondering where you are, this is a panel discussing digital marketing and analytics Which not surprisingly is part of the content and digital marketing track Some it's gonna be a quick chat up here. So some quick introductions to get underway. So on the on the panel here We have Daniel Barthelamy I got that right who is a senior strategist senior digital strategist at media current, which is an agency specializing in drill Share a little I'll be old-fashioned. I'll go with women first Share a little director of user experience also a media current and the middle there is beyond Thompson Who is the digital experience director at image X media? My name is Jeff Burke. I'm the web development business partner at a government regulatory agency called technical safety BC and Vancouver BC so Jumping straight in I looked at the registration list for this session and we have quite a diverse range of Skills in the room. We have marketing people digital strategist contact managers communications people web managers and so on But my guess is most of you are involved in building and managing websites of various scales and and creating the content for that And so, you know some of the challenges The you're gonna have marrying design and creativity in order to make that website Good and make users love to visit All the while making sure it's done in a quick and efficient way. Am I right about that? Everybody's on that page good stuff so We'd Make sure we're sure you're all to make it a bit easier So what we're gonna do up here is discuss a bit more about how we're gonna we might do this and hopefully give you some tips and ideas For when you're actually tackling that same kind of those same kind of issues and challenges So I'll start with a question or two But if you have questions of your own, please don't hesitate to come up to the speaker the microphone at the start either during Our discussion or we're gonna leave a few minutes at the end as well. So I'm gonna start out with some questions and just to lead it off so because I'm gonna be like the the client of Talking to the the experts here. So that's my approach on it anyway. So my first question to the guys here is Where do you start when you're when you're going to start a new website or a new section of a website? What are the first things that you are gonna want to know so that you make that project a success? Anybody like to jump in there? Sharon a mic here The first thing that I always love doing and I'm kind of notorious for doing this I don't know if notorious is the right word, but I always ask a lot of why questions or questions to get at the why How how is what we're about to? Try to accomplish gonna impact the organizational goals at the highest level and then I try to work down to the weeds So what are the organization goals that we're trying to do? How does this line up with the overall organization strategy? And then making sure that you know, we have the context around the challenge So if anybody comes in myself included with kind of a preconceived Idea of like this should be the solution We kind of all get to check ourselves and say how does this align with the overall strategy? To make sure that we're not just coming in with an idea for a solution But we're really starting at the ground ground level One of the acronyms that I like to think about is called rope. It's a way to think through different questions So first I want to talk about results. I want to talk about what are we trying to accomplish? I want to talk about opportunities of what what's available for us to do the problems and then the execution How are we actually gonna going to do that? So that's kind of the framework that I initially start with and then Getting more into the weeds after that Yeah, so totally agree. Hopefully you can hear me There we go Totally agree. So, yeah, definitely understanding at the high level what you know, what's the rationale for this project? Why now? You know, what would outcomes look like? How can we actually measure? whether The effort that's being spent and the time that's being spent the money that's being spent on this project How we can actually understand whether there's been value that's been achieved is definitely critical the other one I think that you know, we try to do as much as possible. It's to try to you know, organize a print project as much as possible around actual feedback from from the users getting getting the actual customers and users into the process as much as possible and You know, obviously that's something that a lot of projects say and and you know try to achieve But some of the things we've seen have a lot of value It's really planning early for things like even getting the users into let's say the discovery process like the onsite workshops Even inviting them some of them to help kind of co-create some of the Journey maps or the personas those can be really powerful ways to get to get early buy-in to start to Lower the anxiety of people and to make sure that people feel that Okay, the the way that we're approaching this project And the way that we're conceiving of these features and solutions are already already being sort of we're hearing from the users directly that these are things that they respond well to and things that they want so obviously because Getting users involved in projects takes early planning usually on day one. You're already behind on that kind of planning You know just having a really good work back Understanding day-to-day and week-to-week how you're going to go about making sure that the business is being heard and that they have The business goals are in front of you all the time and that you're you know successfully kind of bringing in about some sort of validation Regularly not just one round of user testing But regularly bringing in validation to make sure that the things the business want are also desired by users and you have a good sort of Ben diagram where the goals that you've set up like what we talked about Are actually also running through the filter of whether this is actually something that is going to add value It's very important that to understand what your users goals are when they arrive at the website What are they there for where they look what do they want to achieve? When you understand that it'll give you a greater clarity of what your mission is You begin the project Thank you now The word personas was brought up just then And I'm sure everybody has a good understanding of personas. Can I see a raise of hands everybody? Okay, because we had a bit of a discussion before this session about the use of personas and I actually brought up The point that there's a guy called Jason fried who's or yeah Friday. Yes who started the The project management tool base camp and he said personas lead to a false sense of understanding at the deepest most critical levels so I just wanted to and Personally when I was first presented with some personas in fact by Bjorn I Was a little hesitant as to their validity and their usability So I just wanted to find out from the guys what their take was on personas How how much you can use them how much you rely on them and and how they fit in with the overall project structure It's always Jeff throwing a curve ball too Yeah, so I guess I can start on that one is is You know, I think personas can have a lot of value to help the organization that is using them and The project team in general just have sort of easy and friendly ways of talking about the users and What what the users try to achieve the pain points that are running into but like any tool they have limits I think if you treat them as the gospel and treat them as the thing that you always come back to every time and aren't a Aren't supplementing them with actual data So, you know, it is a very common situation where a persona will be written in a committee often in an onsite on day One or day two you kind of sketch them out on the board, you know using the sort of lean UX approach Which is has all piles of value to get ideas out and start start to get the project moving forward But if they stop there then in some ways not necessarily you failed But you probably aren't going as far as you could to really get buy-in and get a persona that's actually gonna add business value So I think Daniel we were talking earlier about this of just how The persona needs to be kind of a living breathing breathing thing that a isn't the only thing you're looking at You should also be doing how you know a good amount of original sort of user research competitive analysis and other other sort of ways of gaining insight But that also the persona should be Attitude and the persona should be evolving as you learn more about your business as you're talking to your sales folks as you're talking to the users and understanding exactly You know Exactly what users want from the site Whether these personas are actually the right the right way to split it whether the subpersonage might well looked at all those kinds of things Should shouldn't just stop in that initial onsite I see get you do the onsite and then you get the sort of project brief that shows you for personas It should always be so we're moving beyond that fairly limited effort In a previous role I led the marketing for an agency that I worked at and I'm a big advocate for personas I could probably talk about it for the rest of this time But I'll save you guys from that catch me later if you want to do that But one of the things that I looked at is we had personas that were basically handed to me and said here are their personas And I started just like peppering my team with a bunch of questions So tell me how does this person think and how does this person think and the way I was Approaching it is I want to know this person like they're my best friend, right? I want to know how they think I want to know I want to know how they would react in different situations. What are the challenges that they're facing? How can I help? better whatever it is that they're they're looking for and In order to have a strong relationship with someone you need to keep asking questions You need to keep learning about them. You're not just going to say I've asked you five questions So now I know everything about you you keep asking questions So what my process was as I was kind of managing personas I would anytime we had a new client come on board or a new even sales Prospect I would go and talk to the sales team and you don't get all the basic information. What are they looking for? What are they interested in? But then I would start asking questions about their personality because I wanted to know them more And then I would you know consume all of that information and then start kind of categorizing it and Trying to figure out how do those fit into our overall idea of who our personas are But keep it in mind just to reiterate one of the things that Bjorn said was it is just a tool so Shifting the the mentality of how you do personas to have something that works for your organization if you have You know a slide deck of six personas that were handed to you and you've never looked at it again That is obviously not a format that works for you. So finding one Finding a format or a process that works for you to gather and collect all that information that you can refer back to I think is one of the key points of making sure that you don't have that false sense of understanding Because you're continually asking questions. You're continually updating it and referring back to it For me that was a Google doc and I would just update it regularly if it's a slide deck That's awesome. If there's another tool that you use There are so many different tools out there, but making sure that when you see it as a tool and there's you know there's room for room for weaknesses in it, but also doing something that in a way that is going to be valuable to you and how your organization works I Really like the idea of Google Docs in general just to kind of as a living document somehow when you put something in a slide deck You might look it on Monday, and then look at it on a Monday two years from now Just the nature of static documents. So I totally agree with that Yeah, user personas are also very valuable when it comes to understanding what device types They're gonna be using to access your website You need to concentrate more on a mobile or a tablet because that user maybe accesses it while they're out in the Middle of a field somewhere or maybe they're at at a desktop computer because they're researching your site while they're at work So understanding the device and also the marketing channels that are being used to target them And maybe like as an email marketing campaign or as a social media. What are the best ways to reach those people? So Jeff yeah, so it's just about to ask any questions. So Big challenge I Hear you so Are they coming at it from a perspective of here's the feature of product X. Here's how it benefits User a is that kind of how they're formatted right now? Sure Are they open to conversations like can you ask them questions about tell me more about how you came to this Conclusion on this line about the persona Oh, yeah, would you be able to you know looking at the user paths or if you have it connected with the sales force or part-outer So to say this person bought it or bought whatever product you're selling Here's what they looked at. Can we have a conversation about help me understand? Maybe how this lines up with the personas? Here's what I'm seeing that they actually went through. Let's have a conversation about do we see any patterns or trends? Because it could be helpful The way I always tried to to get by and is figuring out how is it going to benefit them? Yeah, so if there's ways that you can say 40% of people before they buy product X are looking at these two blogs or are looking at this Let's figure out Why that pattern exists and maybe that's something that now that becomes a part of their lead generation or their Lead nurturing process where they're sending a specific case study or a specific blog or a specific page on the site Looking at maybe how they came to this site and what they're actually searching for that might help your conversation on Why they're why they're buying? Yeah, I like the idea of using data to like you mentioned Daniel I can also foresee maybe something even like an AB test or some sort of way that you can sort of run either AB or multivariate test that That may be tested either a value proposition or or whether the hypothesis that the Personas currently represent can actually match well against Either an alternative post this or additional data that you're hearing or you're getting for your customers again I guess we're similar points about just you know making the case with data and being able to show Show the product team that yeah, these personas are absolutely a great start There's there's great data here and maybe like we're talking earlier they can evolve and and be receptive and be sensitive to new data That's coming in. Yes The argument So in behavior data you're referring to like analytics that sort of thing That that is great, there's lots of great data from I keep maps great data from analytics software on mature, you know, Google likes whatever it might be Just my what I found personally is that data is great for showing us Problem areas weaknesses things to look at opportunities. It doesn't always tell us sort of why something's happening and it doesn't always tell us you know What when we're seeing like a problem or some sort of breakdown What what's causing that and what was the user's emotional state when they're when they're encountering that problem so Her son is up can be part of helping with that for sure Also, like, you know things that machines can't tell us yet. I'm sure they will next year It's just like, you know watching a user walk through your website Just something as simple as that like watching three or four users walk through your website Signing them some some common goals or talents and others and seeing, you know, whether the Hypothesis and hypotheses you formed through, you know, behavioral data are actually holding up over the That is you totally Yeah, and it may not be you're absolutely right So if you're including data as like qualitative quantitative in that then you're absolutely that's like to me personally That's by far the most valuable stuff whether a persona comes out of that or there's just like summary of Insightful quotes from from users or like a list of like patterns that you're hearing I think those all have value I don't think you have to choose one or the other if a persona isn't isn't resonating in your organization as long as the data You're looking at is actually showing you Really sort of high ROI information. I don't think it's necessary to have a persona. I still think it's valuable bit one quick thought on that I think Personas can look different depending on whatever organization and making sure that you're just including the valuable information It could be seen as a way to name a pattern So maybe there's three patterns through your website it could be You know Cheryl is pattern one and this is how they move through being able to do that Helps everyone have kind of a common language about how to address different decisions that need to be made. I think it something that we can fall into is You know looking googling what a persona is and making sure you're including all the same information that Everyone across the internet is doing But if it's not relevant to you, I don't see any purpose in including it Just making sure there's the value that you need out of them. Yeah, I know a lot of personas have like day in the life They have all these different categories. Sometimes it's just pain points and goals is really all you need to see From a design perspective sometimes they can come in a lot of value especially when you're talking about age ranges of people Decide you're gonna design for an 18 year old is looking it'll look a lot different than I thought you're designing for someone in In 50s right so true, but you I think that user persona development you More understand What exactly their goals and their challenges and their emotion emotional states essentially which can also be help convey with design And you're not gonna get that out of analytics Just on that note from a question of my own is if you would have if you had a limited budget and limited time What would be the go-to? Tool tools or methods you would use would it be analytics would be surveys would be building user flows Is there a hierarchy of how big is this budget Jeff? $10 50 hours So I'm gonna say I feel like I feel like all the above is are Accomplishable within a fairly small budget if we we may be thinking about different numbers or different ideas of small small means But like analytics, okay, the vast majority of organizations have Google analytics installed Somebody who's skilled at extracting meaningful numbers from that not just looking at aggregates Drilling down and getting good slices of data That's gonna have value. It's not gonna take that much work. Maybe even a few hours will probably give you something useful user flows or things that Probably don't they could consume 500 hours or they could consume five hours And I think even the five-hour effort is often worthwhile And there's one more thing that you mentioned surveys, yeah Obviously there are universities that have entire programs to teach people about Research methods and qualitative quantitative data So you can go like all out and creating like very like well vetted surveys that have like incredibly You know strong Or you can do a quick survey that asks a few questions get it out Relatively quickly and get some great data back and both are great approaches But even for a small project surveys, I think have quite a lot of value Especially if you can depends on how big of a sample size you have and how how much you can pester them and tap them on the shoulder But yeah, I like all three of those methods Of course, thank you nice prompts. I should definitely use your testing But I guess like I guess that's the question is if like some organizations are either or are concerned about Bothering their their customers. Maybe their customers are very high value. Maybe their customers are CEOs So sometimes user testing is very possible like for a university can test perspective students perspective parents and stuff like that if you if your product you sell to 500 people around the world and each one of those is worth 50 million or a hundred million dollars You might be a little more hesitant to ask them to come in and click through a website So, you know, there's various ways you can get to this this data I think I think talking about the project and it all goes the project probably also has to be it Can't be this like a recipe that this is always the go-to thing because all projects are so different And it really depends on what your aim is So I have a phrase that I ask will tell my People work don't believe everything you think So it's and it's often true. I think that we we create content by ourselves for people who are not like ourselves and so It's often a challenge to Keep pushing people to think Unlock ourselves and one thing we talked about earlier was accessibility and how when we talk about accessibility We typically think about colors and screen readers and stuff But Cheryl actually had some really interesting ideas on there I know just wondering if you could share that Accessibility is not just for those who are disabled individuals trying to access the internet It also affects me when I'm on my mobile phone in a really dark room or I'm out in the middle of a field And I don't I have really low Wi-Fi. So there's a lot of other considerations outside of just disability considerations that need you know that can affect someone's ability to access your website in a Experience that's not going to make them go away really quick. It's a really interesting point that you had about not just thinking about You know people who who made up disabilities. It's also about like the various context of use and conditions that people Can you give us some examples of how you've implemented that in in different projects you've had as far as Yeah, like how you've how you've thought about the project in those terms and you know in terms of You know Bad access to Wi-Fi that you know people like me who are having trouble Reading as we get older that kind of sure. How do you how do you know that sizes are really important? Font sizes we have you know standard best practices of the smallest font size you'd ever want to use on a mobile device You don't want to go smaller than you know like for example 14 15 pixels You can break your content up in smaller bite-sized chunks. So people with cognitive disabilities can can absorb the information more easily Breaking adding subtitles and clear titles to all of your paragraphs. So someone understands what they're getting ready to delve into deeper Giving them you know clear pathways to access the information by having your header tags all in the correct order so that as they're You know Using their screen readers to go through the page. They're not you know fumbling all over the place and going from the top In the bottom and sideways so those considerations are really important when it comes to content as well as like Wi-Fi access the size of your images that you add to your website You know that can really slow down the amount of functionality and interactivity that you add if there aren't careful considerations made during the development process You can really slow down the time and effort. It takes the load of age And I guess as Google pays more attention to signals about usability like performance mobile friendliness You know semantic the semantic nature of The way that the page is constructed how easy it is to find stuff and even metrics like engagement You know that there's the arguments To be made to sort of make the site more inclusive and to make the site just More available to more people. There's also just an ROI and like a business argument to be made that that doing these things is kind of the way the web is going anyway and and a lot of the The companies that are let's not say in charge of our lives, but influence our lives Have you know, there's they're really paying attention to all these things we're talking about and you know, they're They're starting to not starting to already Factoring that deeply into the rank in the ranking algorithms. I'm talking about Google. I say they We're getting reports now and like Whether the touch area on on mobile sites is is wide enough from Google search console So just to continue our own discussion with those influences those big companies that are not to be named There's obviously one of the I know Google Factors is dwell time and the the amount of time that users are spending on the content That that brings into the the question long pages and how If you do put all of your content on one page, which is quite a common design Implementation these days where you just scroll and scroll and scroll the question is how does that? How do you feel about those? I mean given that it could affect? Search engine optimization with what do you what are your keywords? How do you keep you know if people finding the right information on that page? How do you go about dealing with that kind of concept now that that's becoming quite quite common? One of the things that I always try to run through the filter is or a filter that I think through is Humans first and we're gonna design for humans and what they're looking for and you know If you have a good understanding of who your personas are and you know that all of you know this amount of information needs to be on the On a specific page and that's what they're looking for Then I think that that's great. I think the the pattern of Just how technology is shifted cell phones are obviously becoming more and more popular more and more people are having Smartphones then scrolling is just becoming normal. It's what people do like I don't know if you guys have gone up to your laptop and tried to scroll before I definitely have So it's just it's becoming something that people are anticipating anyways So as long as it doesn't hinder that user experience if it doesn't hinder What your users need to get out of a specific page I think that there's a lot of positive things to having a design style like that I think it depends on what you're trying to What you're trying to explain or what you're trying to persuade in on that page You know, there's lots of there's lots of great conversion case studies of long pages versus short pages like crazy I did did one conversion rate as per sit one That showed in their cases. I think most of them as well that long pages vastly up-formed short pages But I think you can't just make that decision Without understanding, you know, what your users how much you contact users can absorb a much they're looking to absorb How how much they need to know before making a decision? We've seen our own research on non-product sites like recreation centers and higher education sites more and more users are are Becoming more impatient with a little bit longer pages and looking looking for things to be sort of truncated especially like if they perceive even one block on that page to be irrelevant it's it's it's they there's a Disproportionately negative impact to that. They're like, why is this alone? A lot of times they look at it on desktop They say oh, this is fine, and then they go on the phone like I'm lost There's seven or eight sort of sections here and I'm really struggling to figure out, you know, how this all relates So I think you can long pages can work really well As long as they're extremely well structured tell a story very clearly and if they're the right choice and you've and you've considered the Short versus long and how much information you need to Present people could do long read on belt anyway So and this again is from a personal experience that we're going through right now is with long pages, you know there's a lot of a Lot of times people will say well, let's just accordion those up. So you just see the the one line and people can Expand those whenever they want I'm I'm into minds about that given that you if you are hiding content In any way shape or form you're actually By taking that out of the user's view. It's compromising the content. Do you have any any ideas on that? Kind of depends on the content If it's extremely long text heavy content and there's four sections of long hex text heavy content Do you want your user to scroll through all of that on a mobile device or by providing them the title? In a collapsed format so they can see all four titles at once they oh I want the one that's number four not the one that top so that kind of saves them time and maybe user frustration of having to scroll So on a mobile devices it can come in handy, but like I said, it's important of what content you're talking about Certain things you're certainly not going to want to bury for example Sure like a chiro education website They have a whole list of courses and within each under each course title They have like a description and the date and all the information about that particular course But maybe there's 40 courses on this page So we don't want the user to have to scroll through all that content They're just looking for the course title and we know that so they can find the course title and then expand it to see The information that they were desiring and we there's a question Please stand up We talked about the the scrolling fatigue for narrative structures again This is not b2b. Just this is me trying to tell compelling stories about how awesome my university is How do you come back that? Yeah, I guess like We've definitely seen like a 70% If people are so you said a 70% drop-off is that right? So 30% of people are making it to Yeah, only like 30 people are making it to the very very end of the story And so we're obviously structuring things where the most important bits are at the top But we're trying to be creative with embedding different kinds of media throughout the stories Not only to encourage people to keep scrolling But because it looks stupid when you just jam all the stuff on the first two graphs, you know I mean, so we're trying to be intentional about it Have you tried a B testing? We have not as often as we should but that's a great suggestion There's also like things that kind of you may which you may be a point already To help people kind of jump to sections that might be relevant to them Like I know a lot of sites use you know in context menus and jump menus that kind of stick are sticky Let's kind of a tactical UI element, but just different ways a letting people know let's say they're on the admissions page Or they're on the you know tuition and financial financial aid page and they want to see Scholarships they want to see you know the process of applying they want to see You know various various pieces of data like five pieces of data. Let's say five big buckets Structuring that information so they can jump to point four quickly or point five quickly It's really really helpful a little bit tricky on a small screen, but there's ways of doing that. Yeah Thanks, y'all Also with regard to content on on webpages And again, this is from my past experience I've always wondered whether it should be one page one one purpose so you come to the site you go to the page and you hit a page and the information you get on that page is Itemized it's your at atomic page for example and an example that I can point to is Nielsen which is a usability website and if you go to one of their webpages they will have in red at the top Essentially a summary of what this page will be what what the user is going to get from this page I've tried to push that into my company's website, but got pushed back So my question is that a good idea? in if If not why not? I'll take a stab at that first. I think every question of good or bad is you have to look at the context of it the way I would approach it is Looking at the topics that you want to talk about and then thinking about how is the user going to consume this information? So if they always consume a b and c and then sometimes d Having a b and c together Might make sense, and then they can go to d if they need more information But really thinking about how is the user going to consume this information and maybe maybe they look a little bit different She liked the internal Content editor, but maybe to the consumer all of or the the customer all of this information is the same So I'd probably start asking those questions before I would make like a blanket statement of Always have you know one specific topic max of 300 words or you know any restrictions on the page I do like the idea though Jeff of kind of telling them what you're gonna tell them up front as early as possible having some sort of nut graph early and you know We all a lot of a lot of these Kind of topic areas have come back to like what our users want and what what are their goals and where their primary goals? If if a user does come to a page and they can't tell fairly quickly if the information They came to the page to get is available on that page. I think it can be demotivating So we talked about like various techniques like obviously You know some Norman does the sort of the sort of map graph at the top, which is a great idea or you know having some sort of Menu way to sort of scroll through the content you want or just make it clear to the user or shortening the page All kinds of different ways you can do that. I think the key goal is Do I have to scroll down four screens to find that one piece of information that I want and do I even know that? That's even available on this page. So that's the art and the science So we're coming into the last seven minutes, so I'd ask if there are any questions that are still out there in the field, please put your hands up. Yes Yeah, and there's a microphone There which Lisa's gonna help you. So talking about analytics. What are some key metrics and What are some key metrics that you guys look at that you use to then better optimized better Design your website for your user It was funny because we talked about it a little bit in one of the earlier sessions of sometimes the most Easiest metrics that you can pinpoint are not always the ones that you Want to look at such as bounce rate So can you guys what do you look for and what metrics do you look at and really use in Designing and optimizing your website. That is a big question Yeah, I'll get you a list later. No, a lot of it is you know, I keep going back I feel like a broken record, but a lot of it is associated with your goals, right? So I like to look at bounce rate But whether or not bounce rate is good depends on what my goals are if it's a conversion page And people are bouncing after that then, you know, maybe that's okay Or if it's something that I it's the entry-level page and I want them to navigate through the site A high bounce rate is not good and I need to take a look at that You know, if there's if it's a blog page and the time on site is 10 seconds Well, that's probably not good because who can read an entire blog in 10 seconds So a lot of it deals with with the context But I typically start with a lot of the engagement metrics. How many times are people? Visiting a site are they or a specific page? How often are they going to the next page that I want them to go to? I think looking at things like conversion rate. Are they, you know Like are they accomplishing the goals that you want them to on the site or are they? bouncing off I Like to look at, you know, the most frequent pages people are visiting. I like to look at where people are exiting the site Yeah, so definitely tend to fall more on the qualitative side But I definitely feel strongly analytics are really important part of the puzzle even just stuff like understanding How behavior might be different from them from various form factors like the mobile versus the desktop understanding, you know, how to prioritize the content and what and How much to pay attention to knowing that we can't look at 500 to 5000 pages, maybe Just understanding what pages are I mean, it's basically the most popular that actually get get heat and get traffic and then understanding That can not only help us understand where priority might go in terms of like Best user experience best content experience, but also just prioritizing things like navigation like what should come first what should come last those things definitely a hundred percent the information on demographic is also getting better and better of Gender of age of all these things and then she actually can be quite I'm quite useful Certainly it's most useful if you can Disaggregate it as like instead of just looking at general bounce rate or general mobile use into some sort of slice That is actually meaningful and useful Like type, you know looking at users who dropped off at a certain point What are some characteristics of that user or their experience and then I guess the other part which doesn't come out of the box but a lot of people do is is actual like conversion goals and And actual tracking the journey. I think that's that to me is often more valuable than seeing like page depth or or You know how a time on page because how my page could be good or it could be not good at all depending on sorry Just apologies. We have two minutes to go and they're pretty strict on finishing up So if you'd like to come up and talk to the experts, not me just these guys after the after the talk that'd be great and I might just finish with one quick question if we've got To the to the panel just to shake him up a bit No, really, it's for you guys last two minutes my question is what is the most important skill? You've learned on the job that you think the guys here could take away And into their practice I'll take that being an advocate for the user Empathy understanding where they're coming from putting myself in their shoes. It's not about The company's goals necessary. Of course it is about the company's goals, but understanding who's visiting the website and Just keeping that at top of mind with every decision that I make When I'm designing One thing that I started in the company in a sales role and you know when you're on a lot of times on your sales call you get sort of a Handoff similar to this experience actually where you have somebody kind of moderating you kind of say here's Bjorn He's coming in as the expert on something and you know, I think it's very valuable for people to have Really strong domain expertise one of the things I've learned is just be comfortable saying I don't know or let's find out You know, I'm not I don't have the rancher at the ready right now because a lot of times You know a lot of groups can look towards to What they consider expert or agency to say like, you know, tell us what what what we should do But I feel like best practices are great and important but have to be You know, you have to factor in the uncertainties that we should you know acknowledge look at and explore I I guess yes, I can be quick asking questions being able to just be curious about Whatever the challenge is asking questions of all of the different people around the whatever the challenges or whatever the project is to get various Various perspectives and the context that you need to make good strategic decisions Okay, I'd like to thank the panel and thanks very much for coming along this afternoon. Cheers Thank you guys so much