 You're listening to the Naked Bible Podcast. To support this podcast, visit nakedbiblepodcast.com and click on the support link in the upper right-hand corner. If you're new to the podcast and Dr. Heiser's approach to the Bible, click on newstarthere at nakedbiblepodcast.com. Welcome to the Naked Bible Podcast, Episode 209, a Fern and Audrey testimony. I'm the layman, Trey Strickland, and he's the scholar, Dr. Michael Heiser. How are you, sir? Very good, and I'm looking forward to another conversation with Fern and Audrey. And again, this one will have another special guest to it. Absolutely. I always enjoy talking to two favorite ladies, so I always enjoy talking to Fern and Audrey. Yeah, and I know that listeners really like the episodes, too, so I'm glad we can do it again. Well, we're thrilled to have Fern and Audrey back with us and a special guest, who we will refer to as Alexa. I'm going to let the conversation more or less sort of explain Alexa's relationship to Fern and Audrey other than to say she is a client of theirs. But the purpose of the episode is really to introduce the audience to one of Fern and Audrey's clients so that the audience sort of gets to know what they do and from a client's perspective, what a session or sessions are like with Fern and Audrey. But we naturally want to start with introductions. So for those who have never come to the podcast, never heard of Fern and Audrey episode before, I will ask both of you to introduce yourselves real briefly and what you do. And then, Alexa, when they're done, I'll ask you to introduce yourself. I'm Fern. I've been working with trauma survivors for about 18 and a half years now, and we recently created Discovery Mercy. It was just a non-profit organization that specifically ministers to those who have been trauma-based, mind-controlled. And I am Audrey, and I came alongside of Fern about 14 years ago, and we do minister to many folks around the United States and parts of other countries as well through Discovery Mercy. And I'm Alexa. I am a client of Fern and Audrey. I'm a survivor. I am six years into my healing journey, and I am happy to be here today. Well, good. Before we ask a few questions to you, Alexa, Fern, Audrey, a short definition of trauma-based mind control, again, some of the other terminology that people will likely hear during this, you know, this conversation that they may not, again, I've heard before because this might be their first one. By the way, if it is, if this is your first one, I recommend going back to episode 68 of the podcast. That was the initial conversation interview with Fern and Audrey. We have had a few since then, but that would be sort of your place to start when it comes to what Fern and Audrey do and who they are. But again, just interject a little bit of, you know, definitional lingo here for those who would be listening for the first time. Sure. Trauma-based mind control. That we use the word, the term trauma-based mind control for any purposeful perpetration done on another human being, typically it starts with their child, that they are traumatized in order for the child to create a defense mechanism known as dissociation, which is that their mind shatters and they become fragmented. And the perpetrators want that fragmentation so that the child can be controlled through mind control, through suggestion, through programming, putting in directives in the subconscious mind so that the child will operate and live life out of those suggestions rather than their own will. And for those, again, to whom this may be new, you know, I do refer to the movie Split. There is a professional, I can't remember what the characters feel. I guess she was a psychologist or something like that. But you should also point out that you guys, even though you're not licensed in those fields, you do a lot of interaction with professionals and interact with their research. Can you summarize that? Yes, we do. We are always doing continued education for the recent and the current trauma research out there. We work with interpersonal neurobiology, somatic experiencing, developmental trauma, and others of the research done in the field of trauma and how it affects children as well as dissociation and works with attachment disorder and just the basic processing and emotionality and grief work. Alex, so why don't you tell us a little bit about your own story, your journey. So what was your life like before you knew, again, that you needed help, that you needed healing? I would say I wrote a few things down, so just kind of bear with me as we walk through this. Before my healing journey began, I worked as a professional in the mortgage industry, very successful, very good at what I did, and then one day my sister died and something inside of me just broke. So over a two-year period of having grief and sadness and trying to understand her death and where she went and what happened to her in that I was not a Christian. I did not have any idea about what that was like, so I didn't know what happened to her when she died. And in that process, I had people telling me things like, well, you could figure that out if you want to see a medium. So I went to see a few mediums, and then I took a few psychic classes with those mediums and my spiritual awareness began to awaken. When that happened in me, I started to experience different things that were very frightening. And during all of this process, I was still trying to work. So I had planned a business trip to Houston to meet with a realtor partner there, and I ended up going to see a medium there. It was unplanned. The realtor that I met with knew this person, and we got to talking about our recent deceased family members, and she suggested we do it, and I thought it would be fun. I didn't know. So... Did you, the medium in Houston, you had already met with mediums before, or was this your first one? This was not my first one. I, yeah, this was not my first one, but what was different about this one is that it was just kind of a one-on-one thing. My friend went and I went, and the medium was there. When I had gone before, the first time it was with a group, and then the second time with the psychic Skype classes and things, it was over the phone. And so this was the first time I had sat in front of this person, and it was a different experience. So basically, after that, I was having, again, these spiritual experiences, and when I came back from that trip, I had another friend here in the local area, and she had called me and asked how I was doing, and when I told her about the experiences I was having, she said, oh my word, I need to come over right now. And so she came to my house, she had a Bible in two books about demons, and she quoted scripture and told me that I was in a lot of danger. And I could hardly listen to her. I couldn't wait for her to leave. She left the two books and she left. Well, the very next day, it got really bad. I became under attack. It felt like I was being raped, and I was afraid I didn't tell anybody. I went to a few churches, Catholic churches, looking for someone to help me, and they didn't believe me. One of them sent me into the sanctuary and told me to pray, and so I got a call from my Houston friend, the realtor, and she asked if I was okay just within a few days of this, and she said that the medium there when we're calling Bob had called her to ask about me, and he knew I was under attack. So that night, I told my husband for the first time, all this stuff had been going on, and I never told him because I was scared to death. I knew he couldn't help me, he didn't know what to do. I booked a ticket to Houston that night, and even then I didn't know this guy was a medium. I knew he was a medium, but I didn't know he was bad. I thought he was some kind of priest. He always dressed in white. I just thought he was, I don't know what he thought, but so I went back to Houston and I met with him. I paid him $5,000, and we scheduled a ritual. I thought of it as a procedure. It was in the middle of the night. It took about three hours. And I think they actually married me to Satan. I don't know, I do think that's what happened. I'm curious. Now, when this all started, you know, this impression, feeling, sensations, you know, being raped and whatnot, did you have any context for that? In other words, did you know where that was coming from, or was it just something, again, totally foreign, and you had no, you had nothing by which to understand that? I had no context. I thought I was losing my mind. I mean, I wanted to kill myself. I thought I was sure I was going to die. Like, I could not understand what was happening to me. I was scared. Did you have any sort of inkling that this guy was sinister or do you suspect, you know, after the fact that the person you met in Houston that you got into this conversation with then you wound up going to the medium, was that a setup or was it just sort of incidental? I mean, what, how do you think about that now? I don't think it was sinister. I mean, what I mean is I don't think I was set up. I think it's so hard to even understand this and believe it. But I think that this was just the plan for my life. Like, I think this is where God had me walking at the time. And I think that looking back at this, if I hadn't walked through that, I couldn't have hardly believed this. I feel like God allowed me to walk through that so that I would have some idea of what's real. Like, this stuff is real. So after this ritual, you go back home, then what? He told me that the attack should stop. The next morning I got up, I got home the next morning, I got up and all I could think about was that woman who had come over to my house with the Bible and will call her Faith. I called her at 8 a.m. and I said, I got myself in a lot of trouble and I don't know what to do. You were right. And I'm really scared. So she had said to me, I have an appointment today with my counselors. And if anybody can help you, they can help you. And I will give you my appointment. It was a few hours away. I cleared my schedule. I drove to her and we went together to see Fern and Audrey. And we sat in that. I sat in that appointment for three hours, explaining to them all of these things that I had just been through. And they believed me. It was shocking. I did not expect that. And I asked them if they thought they could help me and Audrey said that there was only one person who could help me and that was Jesus. And I said, I didn't know Jesus. And she said, would you like to? And I said, yeah, but I don't think he's going to want to know me because I really messed things up pretty bad. So she began to explain to me about Jesus and why that was okay. And that wasn't going to be a deal breaker. And she prayed with me. And I prayed then accepted the Lord. Just even now when I think about it, it just, it moves me. But this day, that day in their office was the beginning of my journey out of fear and into love. I just, it's amazing how God walked that out. I'd like to interject here if I could and just to let you know what we saw on our end when we met Alexa. It is true. She came in with faith and faith said, I'm not taking my appointment. Alexa needs it. So we were surprised and we went with it. And what we saw was she was terrified, but there was something deeper there that we recognized as she talked about her own life, her life as a mortgage officer and stuff. She was very competent, very capable. She was almost, I want to say a robot, but I mean, she just was very focused in her job. People, she didn't care about what people thought. She was going to get the job done, do a good job for the people, but she was on a mission. And then there was this part of her that was devastated about the loss of her sister. And then there was another aspect of her that knew that she could have healed her sister because when her sister was sick, she knew her sister had cancer way before cancer diagnosis was given. So we saw some spiritual activity already in her before she even came to know herself and who she really is and what happened to her. And it was almost, if I remember correctly, Alexa, almost two and a half, three years until the trauma-based mind control came to the surface. While Audrey and I knew it was there, it was the element of trust because Alexa, you were very honest with us and you were pretty outspoken with the fact that you didn't really like us or like me. I can't remember which one that was. I think it was both of us. Both of you. Okay, well, there we have. And it was this place of building trust that was the start. Right, it's true. I did not know you. I did not like you. I did not trust you. But the words that came out of your mouth, it was jaw-dropping to me. And it sounded like truth and I didn't want to believe it. And the words that came out of my mouth even more so was jaw-dropping to me. And it sounded like truth, but I didn't want to believe it. So I kept coming back even though I didn't like you. So, Alexa, would you say that when you heard truth, it hit deep inside? Right, absolutely. And then what would happen deep inside when you'd go home to hear and hear that truth? I think that I was so far away from my emotions that every time truth hit me, it broke something inside. My emotions started to spill and they started to spill and they started to come out. And during the first, I don't know, two years of my journey with you, I worked. And it felt like my emotions mostly came out here. They did some at home, but it's kind of like I kept trying to hold it together at home and I would come here and I would spill out. And so I think that when I would come in for counseling and hear all that, it just sort of hit my emotions and I didn't know that I had them. So it was shocking. So you were becoming human after being dehumanized. I think that's exactly right. And that was very painful. Now, when you, after your first visit, you go back home, did you, I mean your husband obviously knows the medium connected story, all that stuff. So did you present your trip to your husband as, okay, we got that taken care of? How did you present it to him? How did he process that? I mean, what was that like? Oh, my word. I think that was something that evolved when I would go home and I would tell him, okay, this is what happened. He would just look at me like I was from another planet. He was trying so hard to understand. And for probably many, many months, maybe a year or so, every time I would come to see Fern and Audrey and come home, he would say, they're making this worse. You need to stop seeing them. Look at what's happening to you. And I kept knowing in myself that they're not doing this. I wish I could blame them, but it wasn't them. I just kept hitting truth and my emotions just kept spilling. And yeah, it was hard. So at what point did you, at what point did it dawn on you or did you discover this really wasn't, you know, at the core? This really wasn't about the death of my sister and my visit to the mediums and all that stuff. I guess I have two questions. At what point did that breakthrough and did you ever have your husband come along with you? Yeah, I think that probably after I realized I was dissociated or had dissociation, I realized it wasn't about the death of my sister. And that probably took a year before I could even look at the possibility of that. But my husband did come, was it once or twice? Twice. And he, he just sat in the room and I think was looking for ways to protest and say, okay, aha, this is the problem. This is what you're doing. This is what's wrong. But it just didn't look that way. Like there was nothing not to like about Vernon Audrey and he could see that it wasn't some thing against me that was happening to me in counseling. Right, it was just something inside you. He could, he figured that out. He did. And I mean, it's taken him a really, really long time to accept this. Because when you see someone you love falling apart and even though they're getting put back together, it doesn't look that way. And so him watching this happen to me has been painful for him, but he, he's with me. He understands now. He believes all of it. And I think it's just, you know, a person's denial is strong. Even if you're not the survivor, a person watching somebody you love having this happen, you don't want to believe it because the truth is, how do you fix that? What happened to, on your second time? You know, you go back to Vernon Audrey, visit number two and, you know, we can extend it beyond that. What can you describe what that was like? And, you know, Vernon Audrey, just you can chime in here about maybe some, some ways you approached Alexa or whatever. But after the first, you know, the initial visit, how did things look when she came back? Well, we were glad that she did come back. And I think it was because of the reality of Jesus' love for her that brought her back. There was nothing else about the journey, the pain she was in. She was still under some spiritual attack. There was still, it was like everything that had been hidden for 40 years was surfacing. And of course, that's why it looked like the event of coming to see Vernon Audrey was the issue. When, in fact, when her folks inside saw that we saw and knew them, even though Alexa didn't know herself yet, there was this desire for the inside, please don't let us get hidden again. We're here. It's so unusual for someone to come to us that they've had a ritual in, you know, 2000 something, 2011, I guess it was or so, that it was, it was so unusual that she knew about the ritual. And so there was an internal urgency to get help. And so we started very gently because we, she was very upfront with us that she didn't like us and that she didn't trust us. And we told her very gently that trust is not a requirement, that she cannot like us and she doesn't have to trust us, that she can test us and check us and, you know, make sure that, you know, she can walk out any time, whatever she needs to do. And I want you to know Alexa did a very good job at all of those things to make sure that we would remain the same and love her and be there for her. She also did remember the, some of the abuse that she had from her father. And that was, she would talk about that, but she also would put up a great big wall and say, I've forgiven him, don't touch it, don't even bring it up. And so we would work with her on that and say, that's okay, we're not going to touch that. But we, we could see and we could, we knew the structures of something that was well organized and she was well defended by her, her folks that would be present. This is a good place, I think, to ask a method question. Okay. So do you both, you know, for an Audrey, do you, do you try to help someone remember things? You know, a negative word would be like, do you pry? You know, is this sort of a, is there anything that looks like interrogation, you know, in what you do? Or do you more or less just, are you experienced enough now to sort of know how to have a conversation that opens doors to those sorts of things? How would you describe the remembering process, at least your role in that? Yeah, we do not pry for memories. Memories are not the goal for us to get to. They, a person who's been severely traumatized, they don't know what emotions are. They're afraid of them. They're afraid of what emotions do to their body. They don't, it is really more about helping them know them, their own self and what happens in their mind and their thoughts and their emotions. Memories will come, but the memory isn't, we got to pick it apart. It really is more about what the person believes about themselves from what happened to them than the importance of the memory. You're not trying to detect a memory so you can dissect it. No, not at all. What's really very, very important, just like with Alexa, she was in a very, very protected defensive posture. And we honor that. Our desire is that they feel in charge at all times. They can walk out, they can push back. A lot of times they swear at us, they have it wrong. We are okay to be wrong. And we're listening to them and we come alongside of them in their journey. First thing we're going to do is make it okay for them to be who they are. And then we're going to help them understand multiplicity, how fragmentation happened and that it's not weird. It's not freaky. It was a beautiful way that God gave them to survive and they did survive. They're sitting in front of us. So the place of not being in antagonism to themselves and in that constant fight of, oh my word, I'm making this up. I'm such a liar. This couldn't have happened to me to the place of the stories coming out. No. You know, I was, you know, filmed for pornography. I was, you know, groomed to be an assassin. We normalize all of that. Do a really good job of it too. Yeah. Yeah, I would say, Mike, if I could just say briefly, for six years that I sat in front of Fern and Audrey, we never once did we ever work at the memories? Never. It just wasn't, it wasn't the thing that we were looking at. We were looking at my heart. Yeah, I think that's important because again, there's invariably going to be people who hear this. I mean, we've, there've been a lot of people who've heard the previous episodes with Fern and Audrey on the podcast who have contacted me. And again, our policy is I forward those emails to Fern and Audrey and let them do what they're going to do. But we've had a lot of that. So I think this is important for people who are, even if they're not hearing it for the first time, understand again, kind of procedurally, this is not about, this isn't an excavation. Okay. You know, this isn't about, you know, discovering this or that detail about, you know, what was done to someone. It's quite different than that. So I'm, I'm glad that I think you, you all expressed that pretty clearly. And I would say just a couple of months ago, Alexa, you, you came in, you know, the living room here and you sat down and with tears in your eyes, you basically said, and I don't remember exactly the words you said, I'm not fighting myself anymore. I get it. I don't have to be in antagonism with myself. Did it really happen or didn't it really happen? It's okay. I made it. Right. It takes, it's just took me a really long time to get to that place where I could rest in all of this. All of this has always been so much bigger than me, what I could see. And it has taken a really long time for me to come to the place where I could say, it's okay. This is the way I am. This is how God designed me. And I've had different circumstances, different things come up where I just felt like there's no more room for shame. There's just no more room for shame. There's no more room for shame at this. It just cannot be here in this place with me. That sounds like a good point to transition to something else. I'm sure listeners are curious about, you know, when you get to that point where you can now really begin to process not only what's going on inside you, what Fern and Audrey are trying to do, again, there's, you know, the, the trust is starting to, you know, click in here and the, just as you described what is happening inside of you, you're starting to understand how to, how to really, you know, best deal with that. What is it like from that point on? In other words, how, how do you function with this? I mean, does it happen in stages? Can you give people a description of sort of day to day? How much, how much do you think about this? I mean, what's the process just for living life when all of these things become, you know, I don't know if real is the right word, but you get to this point where you're able to think in a much more, you know, spiritually and I think in other ways healthy way about all of this. Yeah, it's a, it's a big thing. I think that the day to day thing is really just learning to live one day at a time. It's learning to get up in the morning and remember, you know, who I am, remember who God is and know that I rest in His grace. I struggle with different things in life. Certain things can trigger emotional responses that are difficult sometimes. So I feel like I don't do everything well all the time, but that's grace, right? That's, that's where I have to remember that it's okay. And I think that my mind is not like everyone else's because of the different parts inside the different places that were built in me. So it's, it's learning to hear the voice inside. It's learning to respond to my own heart and learning to see things maybe the way God does instead of looking through the lenses of other people who don't know and understand any of it, but they want to pass judgment and they want to have something to say. Maybe they're afraid. And so that prompts them to be ugly or uncaring or they're just afraid. Two questions. The, the, the voice inside you use the singular there. So I presume that you're referring to the, to the one that's really you, that's, that's what you're trying to, you know, remember get, and I don't know what the right word is. I'm trying to think of just how you just put that now, but it's escaping me, but I'm assuming you're referring to again, you're, you're actual, you know, core identity. Again, if that's not the way to put it, you can correct me. But then my question building off that is why would someone you encounter respond negatively to you or fear you use. I think you use the word afraid. Is it because one of the alters comes out and then people don't know what to do with that or what, why would they be afraid? Why would, why would you get an adverse reaction from anyone if they met you? Well, you, you said a lot. So I went back up for just a moment and you talked about the voice inside and what I meant by that, the one that's really me or the core of me. I have one heart. And so when I say the voice inside, I just mean the part of me that is responding to the world in that moment, or there are many parts to my heart. There are many parts of me, but it's still just one me. Every single part is identified as me. And even though there's some separateness, it's still me. These are just the responses that were created through trauma and use through trauma. They're parts of a whole. Right. Right. And I think that when I talk about people being afraid, I don't know. I don't know exactly, you know, what they're afraid of. I think if there have been times when I've told people some of my story and not a lot, I mean, like a really little bit. And it's sort of changed the way people treat me. It's sort of changed the way people act. And it's just kind of like there's an arm's length thing going on. And so, and my perception and my understanding of what's going on, it's, it's a fear driven reaction to what I'm saying. It's something they have a hard time processing. They don't know what to, they don't know how to filter that in their everyday life. They cannot understand. It doesn't sound right. It can't be true. It, it challenges their beliefs and they react in a odd way. Like they just might walk away or. So the fear really of the fear response is really coming from them and their own denial reaction, their own, not being able to understand fragmentation or it's really possible that what they do know about dissociative identity disorder or multiple personality they've seen in the movies. Right. And have a preconceived idea about it. And so it ends up that it's population of the body of Christ really gets pretty much ostracized. Right. So the places that there's not many people you can tell. It's not something that you introduce yourself as or anything. But when you do want to become vulnerable and tell someone a little bit more about your story, often times it's not met with an understanding and ability to embrace you. And even in the body of Christ, when people find out you've got saved five years ago or six years ago, oh my, what happened? What's your story? And so I have to pause there and think, why are they asking it's curiosity there? I mean, how do I answer that? You know, and I've often made mistakes and I've said things I shouldn't have said. And that's what I'm talking about with the fear response and people. Yeah. And I want to address that too, because what Audrey and I have seen is when you first came to us, there was a lot of spiritual happenings. Yes. And while most people would say, oh my word, that's because you just had a two day ritual with a medium in the middle of the night. We really saw it more as communication from the folks inside because part of Alexa's story, as in many trauma-based mind control folks, there is a part of the grooming in mind control is to vaporize their spiritual gifting and to have that gifting connected to watchers and a cosmic realm. And outside of Alexa's understanding, that is what happened part of her story. That is what happened to you. So on the front end, we had a lot of those very spiritual connections. Those folks inside who are saying, we want out, be very active. So what we saw, if someone was sitting with us, you would have seen a lot of spiritual harassment, spiritual oppression. Someone with discernment would be sitting in the room and they would say, oh, I really discern witchcraft. And it would have been a haven for deliverance ministers. And what we did is we knew that as communication. And it was probably the first parts of your system, Alexa, that we're asking for help. We're the ones that were very steeped in spirituality that they didn't know any other spirituality. They didn't know Jesus. This was a brand new thing. And so they were just functioning out of what they were connected to as a child. And so now, as Alexa says, six years into the journey, I would say probably about three years ago, you started moving towards how do I do this thing about being human, to have an emotion. And that's what looked so messy. When you talk about your husband saying, what do I do with this? They're really messing you up. It was about emotionality. Yes. It wasn't that you were zombified acting weird at the house. It was really good emotions. He never saw me with emotions. Yeah, I would say it was a few years ago you came and you said, I'm tired of being in captivity. And I said, what's holding you in captivity? And you sat and thought about it for a minute or so. And you said emotions. Emotions are what hold me in captivity. See, it was no longer a spirituality. And so the journey now for Alexa is learning how to be human with the God given emotions of a human. And when you have an emotion as a human, there's a chemistry change in your body. And so then she feels the body, which someone who is dissociative and trauma-based mind is not aware of the body, who wants to be with the amount of trauma it goes through. And so that really is the journey, putting it together on how to be human. What Audrey said earlier, the dehumanization of trauma-based mind control really is effective to control the mind. The journey is to become a human. You said something. I don't, as many times as we've been together, I don't think I've ever heard either of you or any of your clients say something you just said the same way, or maybe even at all. But this notion of, I'll use your phrase, the folks inside get attached, associated, I don't know what the right word is, to some spiritual intelligence. And so when they're threatened and act out, it's actually one of the folks inside. It's not the, again, to use a popular expression. It's not any demonic manifestation. So here's my question. Are you suggesting that it's possible that what we associate in our own experience or our own acculturation, are you suggesting that what we think of as a demonic manifestation might not be anything of the sort? In other words, is this deliverance ministry or could they be unintentionally prone to seeing demons when they're just, they're not in a room, okay? That just isn't the issue. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, we do know that there is the demonic that that spiritual realm is there, but we would say more often than not, it is a part of a person and a conflict inside that they're trying to say, come find me. It is not a demonic manifestation. Right. Something hasn't overtaken the person and now you're dealing with that something. Correct. There are times, Mike, that we, especially at the level of like the watcher level, someone who has been purposefully perpetrated on to let their spirituality grow and connect to a watcher, there's a mindset. And we've talked about the mindset on the podcast before and that mindset is a disdain for humanity, not only for Audrey and I, but also their own humanity. And that has been a part of Alexa's story as well. However, it is not an out of control scenario that we find in the session, in the ministry session. It's really, you know, that's really interesting because on the one hand, if you're in a situation where even if it is, again, we'll use the D word here just because it's convenient, even if you're actually dealing with, you know, some sort of, you know, demonic, you know, manifestation here. I could just picture in my head, you know, the whole, again, and I know this is simplistic, but the whole, you know, casting out the whole exorcism scenario. And if that just isn't even relevant at all, you can see how futile that would be because you can't really cast out the folks inside. I mean, what you're asking me to do something impossible, I mean, you can't do this either. Just, you know, in other words, there's just this, there's a disconnect there that really makes the whole approach at that point, if that's not what you're dealing with. It makes the whole approach nonsensical, you know, and futile. Actually abusive to the survivor. Yeah, yeah. And we, you know, we've had discussions about that too. Yeah. Yeah, you know, Mike, if you had a small child here and they had a lollipop and someone took their lollipop from them and they started screaming and throw themselves on the ground kicking, no one would say that was a demon. Some people would. You know, it, it's, it's an emotional reaction of fear because that what they had was taken from them. And with a survivor, the outward emotional responses are so often interpreted as demonic activity and it's not, it's fear. Something's being taken from them or they are, someone won't give them something they need. And it looks so huge, big and aberrant because for a dissociative part that is in terror. Remember, this is a child that has been traumatized, has been sensorily overloaded and has been reached to the peak of their capacity and right there at the peak of their capacity in the terror that they're in, that's where they dissociate. And when they're coming out in a ministry session, when they think there's help there, it's going to be at that apex, at that amplitude of emotion. It's not demonic. It is a screaming cry. Can you hold? Can you help me? Do you see me? And can you get me safe? Trey, do you have any, Trey, you've been pretty silent here, but do you have any, any questions as well before I have one or two more? But my question would be on finding out that a deeper issue of mind control is at play here in order to get there. I know it takes a long time to get there, but once you're there, it's just, can you speak about what purpose that these mind control people, you know, how the whole process works and how they do it and to what agenda and how you get there, then what do you do to unravel that? So, Trey, you're asking how do some people become trauma-based mind control and controlled and others don't? Yes. And what we find is it usually is it starts in the family. The family is a incestuous family, and that goes into a place that the family is prepared into going into a governmental programming place. It can be within the church, Christian professionals, and it could be any of those options. There are whole communities that that's a normal thing is trauma-based mind control. And how do you get to those layers? I mean, without talking to you for two years, I mean, how do you peel away those other normal negative emotional reactions to situations in order to get down to that level that there is mind control? One of the things that, yeah, Trey, one of the things that I think that we just take our time and we're listening to the person and we're watching them and we're seeing their discomfort with themselves and their thoughts. And one of the things that Audrey does really, really well is when we see that someone's uncomfortable with a thought or maybe there's a double meaning that we just go back and we just check. I do have to say that there probably is a very strong place that the Holy Spirit really does give us an understanding. There's many times that I'll ask a question, just a real valid question. Like, you know, you said that you forgave your father and yet your fists are very clenched every time you talk about him. What's going on inside? And just listen inside and see what's going on. Even if they've never acknowledged their multiplicity, this is the first time that the noise inside, they're listening to. And that they can differentiate what is, what those thoughts are about and what that feels like inside. There has to be able to be a differentiation inside. That's for every human being, not just for trauma-based mind control. It is you're having an understanding of what this thought does to me and my emotions about myself. So we're listening and we're watching the person as they're talking, we're looking at what they're, what they're doing with their body, how difficult it is for them to speak. Are they giving eye contact? Aren't they? And we'll be very honest about that. You know, I'll say, I have kind of an intrusive question is you're really having a hard time looking at me. And that was one of the things with Alexa. She would come right back and say, yeah, I don't like you at all. I don't know why I even come here. And so we just, we, we make it comfortable in order to, that they can be socially incorrect here. They don't have to be kind. They don't have to be nice. They can really speak what they, what they're feeling. I was going to chime in too. And just say that I think in the beginning, you know, I would say things, you know, survivor would sit in the room and say things. And it wasn't that Fern and Audrey are saying this is trauma based mind control. I would say things like, yeah, my grandparents property backed up to the Pentagon, the underground Pentagon, like their property line was right up against the mountain where the underground Pentagon was. I lived, you know, five miles from Camp David. And I mean the story just kept going and going. And, you know, and I, I have memories of walking on my grandparents property through the backyard up the hill and walking into the woods, but then I had no more memory. So, you know, there were just things that I would say that I couldn't understand before and never even looked at before until I sat down and I started talking. And then then Fern would say, okay, well, you know, let's look at that. And so it's not just that it opens up and Fern and Audrey discovered it. It was, it was an active participation of me listening to my own heart for the first time, me feeling my own feelings for the first time and realizing that I was living a life before that I didn't know who I was. I didn't think I really was human. And then realizing I was human. Okay, there was something really wrong before. What was that? And then, you know, we kept looking at it and the more we looked at it, the more things got uncovered. Yeah, it's never really a timeline, is it? Yeah, it's, it's, it's a process. It's like peeling an onion. Well, let me ask in light of that, you know, we can use this to wrap up and Fern and Audrey, if you want to add anything after Alexa answers this question, you know, feel free to jump in there with anything either about your time with Alexa or just maybe the relationship of discovering mercy with McClod, anything like that. But I think listeners will want to know a couple of things still, you know, still in the area of what it's like to be functional to quote unquote, you know, be normal. They might wonder things like, well, do you, do you have like direct control for the folks inside you? I mean, do you, do you have to like work at that? Is there a sense of internal conflict over, you know, what's going on or who's in charge or who's here and who's not here? And then related to that, what does, what's your definition of healing? And, you know, like, where will you, where are you now and where would you want to progress to? What's the, what's the end point? What's the, what's the healing point? So you asked a lot, Mike. Right. Well, just pause for a second and let me kind of regroup with you. You said what's it like to be functional? Like to work with the person inside. Yeah. Yeah. I think that it doesn't look like a control thing. Like I can't control what's or who I should say who is in charge. I think that in my journey, I've discovered that the part that's, you know, you are talking to might be the part that has the investment in the emotions for the conversation. This, the idea of switching, it doesn't look like it does in the movies. It's really just my own one heart doing life and looking at whatever's in front of me and the part of me that does that the best might just be the part that's doing it now. And sometimes it might look like what I'm doing now, it actually isn't the part that's doing it the best. And so I'm not doing a great job, but it's really, I think more about emotions and as my emotions heal and as I believe more about myself, what God says instead of what the programmer said, then it causes me to have that permanent place inside of believing I'm whole and understanding what it looks like. I think that people think when you are integrated as a word, when you're integrated that all your parts go away and it's, it's not, it doesn't really look like that. Integration is just the understanding of the trauma and having that place inside that you, you can hold that and you don't have those toxic emotions anymore. It's a place where you can have a coherent conversation and there's not a lot of pain there. There's no pain there. That's that place where God touched it and healed it and said, this is what I say about you. It really is about what you believe about yourself. And I think that for me defining healing now, I think I have a lot of healing. A lot of places have been healed and I know I'm not finished because I still have memories. I still have emotions that are painful, but I understand how to help myself, the people in my life, my support understands how to help me. And I never walk it alone. And I think that the end goal is just to be able to be able to know my own emotions, to know my own heart and to be able to do life without it breaking me down, like without having a trauma event because of something that triggers me. You used one word. I'm going to jump in here with another question. You used support and I want to fixate on that just a moment because in previous episodes with Fern and Audrey, they've stressed the importance of survivors having a support person or team around them. So I presume you have that. And if that's the case, is that faith? Is that that other person faith that you was part of your story earlier? It's not faith. She is still a person that I spend time with and she knows all about me and she loves me and accepts me. And, you know, she is supportive of me, but I don't see her all the time. The person in my life is most supportive as my husband. And this is, I tell him all the time, this isn't just my journey. It's yours too. So I say, you're doing a really good job, honey. He does. He, you know, he just sits with me. He looks at me. He loves me. He, he's not afraid of my emotions anymore. He used to be because he never saw that I, I had them. He listens to you. Yes. And, and he listens a lot because I find that I like to talk a lot. So yes. He listens to everything I say and, and he believes me. So it's, I think, I think the most important thing for a person who's going through this is to, is to have that unconditional person who looks at them and has compassion, who looks at them and can empathize. And when you sit in front of somebody and they just genuinely love you, love does not relent. Love doesn't pull back. Love isn't afraid. When you have someone who sits in front of you and that's what they do. It's healing. I can't explain it any other way. That is what heals a survivor. It's that constant expression of love. It's true. Before we wrap up here, do y'all have any updates on your curriculum? Yes, we are working on the curriculum. The first draft has been written. There's some modules that we're rewriting. And our goal is we're looking at shooting for November to see if we can get a lot of this prepared and ready to, it will be an online curriculum. And the first part of the curriculum, we're hoping to be available for anyone who signs up for our newsletter. And so we'll be free. And because we really want the body of Christ to get it and understand just some of the tools that we're using. And then once the tools are known and you have the basic tools, we're going to begin the second part of the curriculum. And that is specific curriculum for trauma-based mind control ministry. And that is more of what Audrey and I will do with some of our own videos using the tools you learn upfront and show how we have fine tuned those and what we look for in trauma-based mind control. So it's going to be in two stages. Well, Alexa, we want to thank you for sharing your story. And of course, Fern and Audrey for coming on altogether like this. And again, I think you're giving people some more insight into what you do. And also from the perspective of a survivor, one of your clients as to what this actually looks like. Thank you for having us, Mike. Good to talk to you. Good talking to you both. Thank you both. Thank you. Okay, Mike. Well, it's always nice to have a conversation, especially with what are their clients to get, every time we talk to them, I feel like we get a deeper understanding of what exactly it entails, what they do, how it works, and all of it. Yeah, what it is and what it isn't. All right, Mike. Well, can you give us a heads up on what we're going to be talking about next week? Yeah, our next episode is a topical one. We're going to talk about God and deception. In other words, does God ever use deception in his dealings with people? So I get asked this periodically. This used to be at least part of a whole class session when I taught ethics in various contexts. So hey, why not? It's an interesting topic. And again, I think a lot of people will be interested in it. Looking forward to that. All right. Well, please go visit discoveringmercy.org. If you have not done so, that's for an Audrey's nonprofit and go there, support the ladies and everything they're doing and be looking for their curriculum, hopefully coming out sooner rather than later. I'm excited about that, Mike, because I'm going to partake and do that. So really excited about that a lot. So please go visit them at discoveringmercy.org. We want to thank Fern and Audrey. And also we want to thank Alexa as well for coming on and sharing her story. And I want to thank everybody else for listening to the Naked Bible Podcast. God bless. Thanks for listening to the Naked Bible Podcast. To support this podcast, visit www.nakedbibleblog.org. To learn more about Dr. Heizer's other websites and blogs, go to www.brmsh.com.