 Good morning. Today we will be covering the doctrine of the nature of Jesus Christ and also the doctrine of atonement of Jesus Christ. So we are focusing on some aspects of Jesus. Now you guys are doing Christology also in this particular semester. So the goal is not to be too repetitive. We will try to cover things which probably might not have been touched in the Christology course. So our focus is more on talking about the work which Jesus has done on the cross, the atonement, because this will lead us into the next topic, the doctrine of salvation. So we are doing it more with a focus on that. Rather than repeating whatever is already being taught to you in Christology. So let's get started. We will first talk a little bit about the nature of Jesus Christ. We will talk about the historicity of Jesus Christ and then we would look at the atonement work of Jesus Christ. So regarding the nature of Jesus Christ, as we are all very familiar, the scriptures declare that he is both fully divine and fully human. So you would have covered a lot of verses in your Christology subject verses which deal with the divinity and verses which deal with the humanity of Jesus. So we will not get into all of that. We will just look at a few specific passages which may be helpful to us for this particular doctrinal topic. So regarding the divinity of Jesus, let's look at the significance of the phrase, I am whenever Jesus uses it. So we will take one example of that, John chapter 8 verses 56 to 59. So we can have someone read out those verses for us. But then before we actually read out the verses, a little background, we get to know that here Jesus is speaking to the teachers of the law, learned people who are aware of the scriptures, to the Jewish community. He's basically addressing the Jews in this particular passage and they say to him, we are the children of Abraham. So they take great pride in their ancestry. So Jesus in that context, when they boast and say that we are the children of Abraham, this is what Jesus replies to them about Abraham. So John chapter 8 verses 56 to 59, if someone could read out. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day and he saw it and was glad. Then the Jews said to him, you are not yet 50 years old and have you seen Abraham? Jesus said to them, most assuredly I say to you, before Abraham was, I am. And then verse 59. Then they took up stones to throw at him. But Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of death and so fast. So what they said infuriated the people, made them really angry. So we already have a general idea of what this passage is talking about. So coming to specifics, here we see that Jesus is basically declaring, yes, you may be children of Abraham or rather you consider yourself children of Abraham, but I am somebody greater than even Abraham. That's the statement that he's trying to get across. So it's good for them to show loyalty to their ancestor to Abraham, but they are now standing in the presence of someone who is greater than Abraham. And so their loyalty should also be shown to this Messiah. And so that's basically the point that Jesus is making over here. And so he says, yes, you consider yourselves children of Abraham. Later on, of course, he makes it clear that they are not actually children of Abraham. It's the ones who have chosen to follow the Lord and keep his ways who are the genuine children of Abraham. All the others may consider themselves biological descendants, but when it comes to matters of faith, they will not be regarded as children of Abraham. So that we get to know in another place. But right here, in this particular conversation while Jesus is speaking to these Jewish people, he says this Abraham in whom you people are boasting, he was in fact happy. He rejoiced when God revealed to him about me. So we have to assume that at some point in his life, Yahweh would have spoken to him about what's going to happen in the future, about how the Messiah will come. So maybe there were some details which Abraham was given by Yahweh about the coming Messiah. So at that time, when Abraham heard about what God is planning, Abraham was thrilled. He was so happy and it says here that he rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day. And so when Jesus makes this claim and shows that he is greater than Abraham, Abraham in fact was grateful and happy that he is going to be coming to the earth one day when he makes this statement. Then the people say, you're not even 50 years old because at this time he was probably 31, 32, that would have been Jesus' age. So they say you're not even 50 years old and you claim to have seen Abraham rejoicing. And that is when Jesus makes his statement, his divine statement. And he says very truly, I tell you, now we have kind of touched upon this earlier in the New Testament Gospels. Wherever Jesus says very truly, I tell you, it's their way of saying, this particular phrase, this particular sentences which are going to come after this particular phrase, they're all very, very important. Please pay attention. At that time when they used to have their writings, they somehow were not familiar with this whole idea of old underlining, italicizing. That's how we emphasize certain portions in our written texts. They didn't have any way of folding it or underlining it or highlighting it in yellow. So basically they would use phrases like this. So wherever it says very truly, I tell you, Jesus said very, very truly. Or in some, I think in NKGB, very, very, I say to you, wherever that phrase is mentioned, you got to understand, start paying attention. The few next few sentences which are going to be mentioned are going to be in bold. They are highlighted in yellow. Pay attention to what Jesus is saying because he's making a very important point over here. So that's the way we need to understand this phrase. So Jesus says very truly, I tell you, before Abraham was born, I am. And this makes them very angry and they want to stone Jesus. But of course Jesus is able to get away from there without any harm. So they do not like the way Jesus uses this phrase when he says, before Abraham was, I am. And we know the background to this phrase I am. That's basically from Exodus chapter 3 verse 14. Where God says that this is the name that I have taken for myself. I am who I am is what God says to Moses in Exodus 3.14. In fact, in the latter part of that verse he says, I am has sent me to you. Tell the Israelites that I am has sent me to you. So of course the Old Testament was written in the Hebrew language. But then later when it was being translated into the Greek language, that Greek version which we call the Septuagint over there. The Hebrew word for I am is not mentioned. Rather you have the Greek word mentioned over there. So the Greek phrase used over there in the Septuagint for I am is ego, I me. E-G-O will be I. We are familiar with that word ego, right? It talks about us and it talks about me who I am. So ego is I, I me, E-I-M-I basically is the phrase to be. The verb to be can be in the past tense, I was. It can be in the present tense, I am. Or it can be in the future tense, I will be. So that E-I-M-I is a Greek verb which basically means to be. So it can be to be in the past tense or the present tense or the future tense. So this is the phrase which Yahweh uses to describe himself. He says I am and this was a phrase which was also used in normal everyday speech. Because a person maybe walking down the road talking to someone and then he may say I am a trader. So he obviously would be using this term ego, I me when he's trying to explain that he is a trader. So yes, ego, I me was not some kind of spiritual phrase. It was also used in normal everyday language. But the way Jesus used this phrase, you know, the crowd understood that he's saying something more than just simply using the phrase I am. So let's look at an example of how this phrase was used in normal everyday speech. So if we were to turn to John chapter 9 verses 8 to 9, we see an incident over there where this particular phrase gets used. John 9, 8 to 9 if someone could read out. John chapter 9 verse 8, therefore the neighbors and those who previously had seen that he was blind said, it's not this ego said and that was 9. Some said this is he, others said he is like him. He said I am he. So in verse 9, in the English it's translated as I am he. But if you were to look at the actual original Greek Bible, he is the blind beggar who has now got healed. He literally says ego, I me. They're all saying no, no, it's not him. He says I am that guy who got healed. So he uses the word ego, I me. And when he uses the word ego, I mean nobody thinks that he's talking about divinity. He's just basically saying yes, I am that beggar whom Jesus healed. So ego, I me was a normal everyday phrase used by everyday people. But the way Jesus uses that particular phrase here adds extra significance to it. So in John 8 58, Jesus says before Abraham was, I am. And there are two Greek words involved over here. There are two Greek words which talk about being to be. So the first of course is I me, which we have looked at E I M I, which basically means to be, to exist. And there's an other word, genome, I genome, I is basically means to become, to come into existence. So that's the word which is used for Abraham. So, you know, if you were to be read, if you were to read John 8 58 in the Greek Bible, basically what you would be saying is before Abraham genome, I ego, I me. So there are two Greek words for being used over here. Let's look at the significance of what Jesus is saying. Now, let's imagine two columns in the first column, you have I me in the second column, you have genome, I me means to be genome, I means to become. I me means to exist genome, I means to come into existence. You see the contrast, you kind of catch the contrast to be, to become, to exist, to come into existence. So genome is basically talking about something which did not exist always. And then at one point of time, it came into existence. It started being, it became. But when you have that other verb, I me, that just simply is to be, to exist. There's no beginning attached to that particular verb. So here very clearly by using those two verbs, Jesus was conveying the point that your ancestor Abraham about whom you are so proud, he came into being, he came into existence, which means he had a starting point. But I am, I was always there before Abraham ever existed. I was always there. So he was very clearly using this phrase in the divine sense. And that is what made the people so angry. They immediately understood the contrast which he is drawing between Abraham's genome mind and his me. So they caught that. And that is why they were angry because he was claiming to be divine. So in many places, Jesus uses this phrase. He calls himself I am in the divine sense. And so critics who say Jesus never called himself divine. They are wrong because Jesus has very clearly used the term I am for himself in many places. There were two wrong, you know, false teachings about Jesus Christ in the time of the early church when false teachings began to come in at that point of time. There were some wrong teachings which people were saying about Jesus. One of the wrong teachings which started, it was started by, okay, I don't have the name over here of the person who started it. One of the false teachings which came up at that time was that some people said that Jesus when he was born, he was born as a normal human being with normal biological parents. So he was the biological child of Joseph and Mary. That was the false teaching which they started. And then one day when he was getting baptized at that time, the spirit of Christ, the spirit of the Messiah came upon him. And so at that time he started becoming divine. And then when he was hanging on the cross, the spirit of Christ left him and went away and he went back to becoming a normal human. And that's why he died. That is the false teaching which they started. And so this kind of a teaching, it denies the fact that Jesus was from the moment of his conception, he was fully human and fully divine. But they are trying to get rid of the divinity part of what the Bible says about him. So this is a wrong teaching which they came up with. There was another wrong teaching also, which we touched upon earlier, where some people, the Arians, they said, oh Jesus was the first creation which God created. And we already talked about that. We talked about how that phrase, the first born of creation has a different meaning, it has a legal meaning and we've already gone into the details of that. So these are two wrong teachings which were there at the time of the early church denying the full divinity of Jesus. So today we have the Jehovah Witnesses who also hold to the same viewpoint that Jesus was the first created being. They don't regard him as eternal. A little bit about the humanity of Jesus and that phrase, son of man. I think we might have touched upon this in one of the previous classes. Did we look at the Daniel passage and all the things which are mentioned in the Daniel passage about the son of man in any of our sessions. All right, we will look at that. So let's begin with the passage in which Jesus uses this phrase. Matthew chapter 9 verses 2 to 7. If someone could read out for us, Matthew 9, 2 to 7. And at once some of the scribes said to themselves, This man, flesh famous, verse 4. But Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Why do you think evil in your parts? Verse 5. For which it is easier to say, your sins are forgiven you or to say arise and walk. Verse 6. But that you may know that the son of man has power on earth to forgive sins. Then he said to the parolating, Arise, take up your prayer and go to your house. Verse 7. And he rose and departed to his house. Yes, thank you. So Jesus says over here, You people are saying that I am blaspheming, but I want you to know. He says that in verse 6, he says, I want you to know that the son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins. He specifically calls himself son of man in that particular passage. And he says, this son of man has authority on the earth to forgive sins. And so whether the general audience caught what Jesus was saying or not, the people, the teachers of the law who were sitting over there and who were thinking in their hearts about Jesus, you know, blaspheming, they would have understood the significance of what Jesus is saying over here. Very specifically, he says the son of man has authority on earth. It would have reminded them of the Old Testament scripture which they were familiar with. It would have reminded them of Daniel chapter 7 verses 13 and 14, which talk about the son of man. Okay, so Daniel 7, 13 and 14 if someone could read out. Daniel 7, 13 and 14. I was watching in the night visions and behold, one like the son of man coming with the clouds of heaven. He came to the ancient of days and they brought him near before him. Then to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom that all peoples, nations and languages should serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which shall not pass away and his kingdom the one which shall not be destroyed. Yeah, so here we see that Daniel 7, 13 to 14 talks about the son of man and it says that the son of man he comes and approaches the ancient of days and the ancient of days confers upon him authority, glory and sovereign power. These things are given to the son of man. So Jesus is referring very specifically to that passage and he's saying I am that son of man. So I have been given authority on the earth by the ancient of days and therefore yes, I do have the authority to forgive sins but you people are probably not going to believe me that I have the authority to forgive sins. So I will heal this man and demonstrate to you very plainly that yes, I have the authority to forgive sins and he says to the man, you know, rise up and walk and the person who has been paralyzed for so many years just simply gets up and starts walking. You know, I mean, if we are familiar with you know, paralysis, people who in fact manage to recover from paralysis, it takes them weeks of rehab to be able to rebuild those muscles to be able to actually walk. You know, I mean, after a major accident if a person has been on the bed for many months and now they have to learn to start walking again it takes a lot of rehab where the therapists will carefully take them through various steps to build up the muscles in their legs so that they'll be able to stand and carry their weight and walk. In this man, nothing, no rehab involved, nothing. He just simply gets up, takes his own mat he doesn't even need any help to carry the mat and he walks out. So Jesus clearly demonstrates that he is the Son of Man. All authority has been given to him on the earth. All dominion has been bestowed upon him by the ancient of faith. Clear proof. So the teachers of the law who know Daniel chapter 7 verses 13 and 14 see that Jesus has clearly demonstrated that he is the Son of Man and yet many of them because of the hardness of their hearts they choose to ignore what they have seen with their own eyes. It shows the sheer stubbornness of their unrepentant hearts. So in Matthew 13 verse 41 it talks about the Son of Man again and this is what it says in Matthew 13 verse 41 someone could read out. Can I read sister? Oh please go ahead yes. The Son of Man will send out his angels and they will gather out his kingdom all things that offend and those who practice lawlessness. Yes. So here it talks about how the Son of Man has angels. It talks about how he has a kingdom. So these are all things which were earlier mentioned in the Daniel 7 passage where all glory and sovereign power over all nations has been given to him. So the Son of Man has the authority to release angels whenever he wishes to and he has a kingdom that he can invite people into if they choose to place their faith in him. So there are two aspects of Jesus which he talks about himself in these gospels. He speaks of himself as the I am where he is equating himself with the Yahweh of the Old Testament. So that talks about his divinity. In other passages he talks about himself as the Son of Man but this is not just a man this is the Son of Man upon whom the ancient of days has conferred full authority full sovereign power and all glory. Both in his divinity and in his humanity in both of these aspects of him we see the full nature of God being revealed. So in no way is his human aspect less divine. So even in his humanity we see that he has he is exercising in full authority and he has sovereign power. So these are the two main aspects of the nature of Jesus. Now there were some wrong teachings back then in the time of the early church regarding the humanity of Jesus as well. And these wrong teachings basically came out of the Greek thought processes which were prevailing at that time. Before I get into that you have a question. And suddenly it says he brought him here before him. So is it a thing for the Son of Man? I only have the NIV in front of me right now. So it says he approached the ancient of days. So the he would be the Son of Man who is approaching the ancient of days. The ancient of days is in this case it would refer to the father and the Holy Spirit in Revelation again when you have that phrase ancient of days talked about there again it's referring to Yahweh. So here when it says one who was like a Son of Man he approached the ancient of days. It is basically Jesus who is approaching the ancient of days. So the ancient of days would be the other two persons of the Trinity and they bestow upon him all dominion and glory and sovereign power. I mean I don't have that phrasing over here. It just says in my next verse verse 14 he was given authority, glory and sovereign power. So him being brought by someone to the ancient of days I don't quite have that wording. Bible Hub would if you were to go to Bible Hub you would have the original Hebrew wording. Even if it does say that someone brought him it's like a person being brought into the royal court human word pictures being used to convey the solemnity of the occasion where it's like the crown prince being brought now formally before his father and now his father he will bestow the crown ship upon him in that sense. It's a picture word picture that is being drawn out. So maybe we could think of it in terms of the angels bringing the Messiah before the ancient of days. Let's not stretch it too much because I mean it's just wording that is used. So yes in the NIV kind of not brought in that maybe to avoid confusion but of course in Bible Hub we give you literally word by word what's the original wording. Yes so the wrong teaching that came up about the humanity of Jesus was a result of some of the Greek philosophies which were prevailing at that time in the Greek mind spirit is a good thing but material is supposed to be a very bad, evil fallen dirty thing so in their mind they considered spirit as a good thing but anything that is material which can be touched which can be felt you know like the skin in the body inside which we live that's material so they regarded material as something evil and this Greek philosophy was very very popular at that time so the Greek philosophers they said all this material world that we are living in it's so below us you know we are learning how to become spirit beings where our entire existence will will you know involve just reflecting upon spiritual matters and all of that so they looked down upon material things and some of the Christians kind of were contaminated by this thought process and so they began to ask themselves oh Jesus became a human he became material he became flesh oh how low how cheap so no no no Jesus Christ could not have become an actual human that is too degrading and so they began to say you know there were this particular set of gnostics who called themselves dosetists so they began to say Jesus took on a shape which looked like a human form but he was not actually literally human because to be literally human is to have material and material is evil it's too low is what they began to say so which is why John when he is writing his gospel is very very clear that Jesus was not some kind of a spirit being which looked physical he says we touched him very plainly he says that in 1st John you know 1st John 11 he says we interacted with him we saw him we in fact physically touched him he was fully totally human with a human body so in God's eyes material is not evil it's the way we use material which may make it evil you know I mean take a simple example you know take a stick and you use that stick for something good it's not evil the stick is not evil on the other hand if you use that stick you know to maybe to beat up somebody then yes then the stick is evil the way we make use of material can either render it evil or pure our human bodies are not evil the way we use our human body will either make it evil or you know holy depending on whether we are setting it apart for God or whether we are using it for evil things so in God's eyes material is not evil and so when Jesus came with a material human body he was not coming in anything you know degrading or defiling so that's just a wrong teaching which they had back then and people like John spoke very strongly against the Gnostic teachings which were coming in because if you remember the other three Gospels were written a little earlier maybe around 40-50 years after the resurrection of Jesus John on the other hand was written about 90 years 90 around 90 AD so you know it was a little later so around the time of John when he had become an old person and he was looking after the church at that time all these wrong teachings began to come in where people are trying to take away the divinity and the humanity of Jesus so John was very very he touches upon these things in many places in his Gospel and also in his Epistels so we see in Mark chapter 13 no maybe that's not the right verse to take let's take a look at Luke 2 46 which talks about another aspect of Jesus humanity Luke chapter 2 verse 46 if someone could read out now so it was that after 3 days they found him in the temple sitting in the midst of the teachers both listening to them and asking them questions yeah so one wrong teaching of that time was that no no no he didn't really have a human body it looked like as if he had a human body but he was just a spirit being the second wrong teaching it touches upon this they say that Jesus yes he had a human body but in his mind he was completely divine and all knowing and all perfect so they basically deny what is being told here in Luke 246 where it says that Jesus had to ask questions listen and learn he didn't know everything he had a actually genuine human mind so this wrong teaching which said that in his mind he was all knowing that would be a false doctrine because just like all of us we open the scriptures we study the scriptures we hear from God we learn more and more when we don't understand something from the scriptures we go to people who can tell us explain things to us and in that way we learn we listen and we learn so Jesus too went through that same process when he was conceived and said the womb he didn't have all knowledge of everything like a human he too developed stage by stage so he had a limited human mind which was not all knowing and so at the temple he actually sat down over there and he spoke to the teachers of the law asked them questions about different passages Bible passages I suppose and he learnt he learnt from them so these are some of the aspects of the nature of Jesus that we should keep in mind he is the I am he was always the I am but he had a human body which people could actually touch and he had a limited human mind which had to be taught and which had to develop stage by stage so these are limitations which Jesus chose to take upon himself even though he was fully divine so let's look at a passage which talks about that Philippians chapter 2 verses 6 and 7 someone could read out Philippians 2 verses 6 and 7 yeah if you could read out if you could just read out the verse 6 once again verse 6 it is a form of God did not consider to be equal with God ok then verse 7 yeah made himself of no repetition I wanted that part you could read out that yes verse 7 but made himself of no repetition taking the form of God and coming in the light yeah so he made himself of no reputation is what it says in that version in the NIV it says he made himself nothing so a wrong thought which some people have based on this verse is that when Jesus was when he came into this world he took his divinity and laid it aside is what people think especially because in the NIV it says he made himself nothing so they kind of think of this in terms of Jesus taking his divinity and putting it aside and no in the shelf but no that is not what scripture actually says about the divinity of Jesus Colossians 2 9 gives you an actual description of how we should actually see Jesus Colossians 2 verse 9 why is it that when you speak there is a noise over here what is the connection can I read sister please sister go ahead yes for in him dwells all the fullness of God had bodily exactly you know and to use the simpler English of NIV it says in Christ all the fullness of the deity lives in bodily form so all the fullness of the divinity all the fullness of the deity lives inside this bodily form so Jesus did not take his divinity and lay it aside on the shelf that is not what it means when it says he made himself nothing how did he make himself nothing being fully divine continuing to retain his divinity he wrapped himself on the outside in humanity on the inside he continued being what he had always been the entire fullness of the deity lived inside this bodily form so he never ever became less divine it's just that on the outside he put on something extra he put on humanity and he made a choice to only use this humanity which he has put on he will not make use of the divinity which is on the inside it's a conscious choice that he chose to make in submission to the father because the father sent him into the world to be our representative as a human and therefore that is why that passage about Satan coming to Jesus and asking him to turn the stones into bread that makes a lot of sense and Satan is saying if you are the son of God prove it prove it by turning those stones into bread Jesus does not do that he says you know man shall not live by bread but by every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord the Lord has told him that he is to come over here and be human and be our representative if he turns those stones into bread he is going against the word of the Lord he is going against what God has commissioned him for he would in fact be using his divinity so basically Jesus never used his divinity he continued being fully divine because it says that the entire fullness of the deity lived in this human body so he continued to be divine but he never used his divinity at all the humanity which he had put on on the outside he only lived in that limited humanity so when he would be hungry he would not use a miracle to create food he would wait patiently for the Father to provide food in the same way all of us wait miraculously create finances for ourselves we wait for God to provide trusting him so in that way the Son of God also learned what obedience is through suffering he limited himself and in the same way we trust we wait we submit he too went through those processes and he learned what it feels like to actually obey for us humans what it feels like for us to have to obey he understood all of that first hand because he too went through all of that like us so which is why it says in John 5 19 the Jesus speaking and he says most assuredly this is like your verily verily term most assuredly when he says that it automatically means that whatever is coming next is in bold it is highlighted you better pay attention so this is what he says in John 5 19 he says most assuredly I say to you the Son can do nothing of himself but what he sees the Father do so he very plainly Jesus is saying over here in my humanity there is nothing that I can do by myself I would need the Father to enable me only then I will be able to do it so we see the same thing being mentioned again in Acts chapter 10 verse 38 where it makes a statement about Jesus and the way he did his ministry this of course you would have gone through many times this verse if someone could just read out that Acts 10 38 anyone online? Acts 10 38 Acts 10 Acts 10 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power who went about doing good and healing all were oppressed by the devil for God was with him exactly it says over here that he went about doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil and how I was able to do that it explains that so exactly because God was with him he God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and power so on his own he would not have been able to do anything because he chose to be fully human in that sense we should understand Philippians chapter 2 where it says he made himself of no reputation he made himself nothing in this sense where he would not use his divinity to even do a miracle it depends on the presence of God the Father and the anointing being given by God the Father through the Holy Spirit to be able to do the miracles on his own he never did any of the miracles so we see that Jesus was fully divine always but at the same time he chose to be fully human and only restrict himself to his humanity so we just need to understand that very clearly now another thing that we can maybe very briefly touch upon it's regarding the historicity of Jesus now obviously this is not exactly a proper part of the doctrine of Jesus Christ but I think it is important because people say this entire doctrine which you have come up with it is just based on theoretical concepts but actually the thing about Jesus Christ is that he is not theory he is something somebody who actually happened in history so I thought it would be good for us to touch upon some historical records of this Jesus what secular people said about him how they mentioned him in their secular historical writings which clearly reveals that this entire doctrine which we are learning today is not just based on some fictitious philosophy or theory it's based on historical facts which secular writers recorded in their writings okay so when we come back from the break maybe we would be able to look at that in greater detail but just to get started off with Josephus because we are more familiar with that particular name Josephus was this ancient historian who wrote down about all the things which happened during his time he talked about the Roman powerful figures who ruled during that time he talked about all the rebellions and revolts which took place at that time so his historical writings he writes two historical books in both of those books he talks about different historical facts which are accepted by people today as being historically authentic and so in those historical records he plainly even talks about Jesus Jesus death he talks about Jesus resurrection so we can't just take all the other things which he is saying about the Romans and the revolts as authentic and only dismiss this one portion about Jesus as being fictional that would not make sense here is a historian who is recording historical facts so we can't just dismiss whatever he says about Jesus and say oh this portion of his historical records are fictional that would not make any sense alright so Josephus is one person in both of his historical works he plainly talks about the miracles of Jesus the things which Jesus did he records them as though they are historical events which took place and this is a secular writer who is writing that because he was a Jew he was not a Christian Josephus was not a Christian so he was not a Christian he recorded these details about Jesus there was another person Tacitus who was a Roman historian so he is not even a Jew he is a Gentile and this Gentile Roman historian Tacitus he talks about somebody named Christus in his writings and in his writings he says this Christus a lot of of stories have come up about him and as a result of these stories about this Christus a lot of people are beginning to have started following him so he talks about Christus as a historical figure about whom people are talking and saying many many things and they are all going after him and this is this phrase which he uses in his historical record he says there is a most mischievous superstition which has come up which is causing many people to follow this person so he literally talks about Jesus as a historical figure and most probably this mischievous superstition which he is referring to is the resurrection of Jesus so here are secular people talking about Jesus as a real person who lived and moved among them you know and was part of the historical events of that particular time so yes there are a few more that we can look at but we will do that after we come back from the break alright thank you