 Today we're going to talk about Alyssa Baker, and she's the one that murdered her stepdaughter. And we're going to talk about the body language we see when she's asked questions about that. Greg, tell us about the videos we're going to watch. Yeah, this is another one of our favorite shows, 16 Minutes Australia, and the lady is interviewing her in prison where she's serving a long sentence, and she cooperated and told where the body parts were in exchange for a plea deal. What kind of person dismembers a disabled child? A sick person. Does it take an evil person? Yes. It's an evil act? Yes, ma'am. Alyssa Baker will sit in a prison cell at least until she's 70, after entering a plea bargain which would see her avoid death row. How do you sleep at night knowing that a little girl, a little disabled girl, was cut into pieces and thrown away? Some nights are hard, but I miss her. Do you really? Yes, ma'am. All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, this is an interesting one because she shows emotion, and we automatically want to jump to someone who does this, is a psychopath. But I think we're going to see a different kind of animal here, so let's talk about who she is. First of all, in the true crime workshop that Scott and I put together, if you'll look, there's this thing we call the romance her. It's when somebody's making good, solid eye contact with you at all times rather than breaking eye contact because they want to know what you're doing. I only have eyes for you. We see that in the beginning. She's also trying to talk her way out of this, that yes, ma'am, is classic of a person who's trying to plug into your receptors and get what they want. A lot of times, borderline personality disorder folks do that. Now, that doesn't mean all borderline personality folks are bad guys and going to kill you and do that. It's something we're all born with things we have to deal with. In this case, I think this is a person who needed fences and didn't get them, and we'll see it. Her husband, her third husband, by the way, just a couple of data points. She's been married more times than she has fingers, I believe. She was married to three people at the same time at one point. Her third husband said she thought she could talk her way out of everything and that she was smarter than everybody else and she never told the truth and shared a lot of good people. That's his words. So if borderline personality folks can plug into your receptors and then get away with stuff, she's gotten away with stuff for a long time. I'm not trying to diagnose her. She's getting away with it. When she says that's my opinion, when she does a lip compression, in my opinion, that's her controlling emotion. But we're going to find it's a good portion of her baseline and what she has done. I think anytime that she thinks she has no power, she's going to do some of that. We'll see it. I also expect this woman has very little governor in her personal life in that she just runs for the fences and if you don't give her one, she's going to run over you. She's doing some emotional eye accessing downright and then she comes back and respiration increases when she's asked about the evil. I bet if you left this person alone, you'd get a very different person. This is her face to authority, not to people who have no power. I bet you she's a scrapper and when you push her, you get it. And we'll see more of that a little bit later. In this case, the last time she looks downright is not eye accessing is breaking contact. And then she does, I miss her. The waterworks she's used before has worked for her in the past and the organism does what made the organism successful. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, really good. Totally agree. So compliant and socially polite in this situation. In fact, that she agrees with evil. I don't think she truly believes that. I think it's a compliant agreement because throughout this, we're going to try and see her winning the interviewer over trying to get her story recognized. And what is her story? What does she offer? She offers a sick person. So I think her gambit here is, I'm not of sound mind. And that could be true or false or something in between. But I think right off the bat, I think that's the story she's trying to get across. And so she has to be compliant and socially polite and agree with the evil in order to frame what she's inserted in there, which is not of sound mind. Now the eyes watering along, it looks very, very convincing. The eyes are truly watering. We see the eyes redden as well. We also see the nose become more red and the cheeks become more red. This is, these are true indicators of real feeling, real emotion here. So that's quite interesting that she's managing to produce such real indicators or they are, you know, there's truly an emotion happening there. So I'm interested to see where this goes and what's really going on here in all these videos that we watch. So by the end of it, we can work out what have we actually got here? What have we truly got here? Chase, what have you got on this one? Yeah, I agree with both of you guys. The question that the interviewer asks is my favorite because it's very similar to a question that's taught in interrogation schools called the punishment question. And the punishment question essentially says, what do you think should happen to the person who did this once we find them? And she says, a sick person, you're kind of that questions designed to make someone lighten their sentence or lessen their sentence a little bit. And we see a little bit of that here, but right at sick person, the forehead, lips, and eyes are all needing reassurance from the other person. Everything on the face is a need for some kind of reassurance. The eyes move downward into the emotional recall area. Our eyes move in certain directions to access different parts of our brain. This is mostly emotion. The rest of it, I'm not fully convinced, but some nights are hard, but I miss her right there. There's genuine movement in the chin boss, grief, genuine redness developing in the eyelids and the nose, it's a shift into chest breathing too, instead of abdominal breathing. I think it looks pretty honest. The behaviors at least are almost impossible, if not absolutely impossible to fake. And the potential for this to indicate that she misses her company is there in a selfish way. Like I miss what she gave me. I miss what I got from her, and maybe not in a way that might indicate regret. Scott, what do you got? All right, yeah, I agree with all you got so far. This is really odd behavior when we're looking at this, because we're not seeing any anger here. There's no, when she asked you that question where she used severity softening, gives that answer of it's a sick, they're a sick person, what's wrong is a sick person. She should be angry that this, that her step daughter's dead and been killed, but we don't see any of that. And she says, when she says, how do you sleep at night? No little girl was cut into pieces and thrown away. We see her lips pursed for about nine seconds. Now when somebody purses their lips, we see that as the person not agreeing with what they're saying. They don't agree with it, or they think the opposite of that, which is of course this agreement, but that says they don't agree with it. That's what it usually tells us. Now the micro, there's a micro expression of anger when she says, but I miss her and it's on miss, and just really briefly, that's what a micro expression is, leaking things. And we see anger in there. I'm under the impression coming back to the beginning here after seeing all these videos together, that we're seeing anger here at the little girl. So that's where we see that little anger micro expression is a, but I miss her when she says miss. And after that she says, do you really? And that's an odd question. I think she was sort of taken aback by that because she didn't expect that answer from her. When she said, sometimes I miss her, but it's hard. And she's like, do you really miss her? Because who would expect somebody to answer, but I miss her? Because that says, here's your answer, but I miss her. So it's kind of off. That doesn't seem quite right to me. Now, I see what you're saying, Mark, about the nose, and you too, as well, chasing the nose, and the mouth, and the chin boss, and all that, it's all red. But what we're seeing is that lip compression, which is actually, in my impression, that is an adapter. Because she keeps doing that over and over, so her philtrum's all red and all that. So, and you can see she used to have a lip ring right there too, or she's got a little hole right there. But she's doing that constantly throughout this. Sometimes she doesn't use it as an adapter. She's actually holding back in some information, or she's a little stressed, but this is the way she's getting rid of that built-up stress or tension as she's just sitting there, which she's done. Like you were saying, Greg, she's done this over and over and over again. We're not seeing the real person here. This isn't her. This is a person she's showing this interviewer. And she's playing dumb. She's that whole child-like thing with her eyes all wide and all that. That's a show. She thinks she's smarter than everybody else. And that's the show she's putting on for her because she's gotta figure it out and gonna make them think she's stupid and just innocent and this isn't her fault and she didn't do it. So she's hiding who she really is at this point, in my opinion. All right, we good? Yeah. Yeah, I don't know how much pretending she has to be about being dumb, but yeah. That's true. What kind of person dismembers a disabled child? A sick person. Does it take an evil person? Yes. It's an evil act? Yes, ma'am. Elisa Baker will sit in a prison cell at least until she's 70. After entering a plea bargain, which would see her avoid death row. How do you sleep at night knowing that a little girl, a little disabled girl, was cut into pieces and thrown away? Some nights are hard, but I miss her. Do you really? Yes ma'am. I thought I had met Prince Charming. Adam was your Prince Charming? Yeah. What drew you to him? What did you like about him? What I thought was his honesty about everything and the fact that he was a single dad and that he loved his daughter enough to raise her himself and not let his family or her family raise Zara. Alright, Chase, what do you got? This interviewer is killing it. She's doing well so far. She's using some really cool techniques. I wish we had the time to go into here. But right there, if you take a look, she may need to speak to a manager somewhere if you know what I mean by looking at this interviewer. So what I see here is a genuine smile. I thought that was absolutely genuine. Every part of the face moved as it should. And if you just to just to show you a good way, a rule of thumb for genuine versus fake smiles is if the person wearing a ninja mask, you should still be able to know that the person is smiling if it's genuine. You should be able to see a smile in a ninja mask. We'll call that somebody will make up a name for that. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, look, I mean, I don't think that we're seeing the real person, the real smile. People do what they've gotten away with over and over and over and what's made them successful. This woman has been married to many, many, many people and they all must have found something interesting in her in the beginning. When you look at her here, God knows what it was because she looks like crazy. But what she does is she's engaging, she's overly emotional. My guess is she would call herself passionate starting to see those symptoms of things that come up. This is her acting like she cares, but she probably genuinely did care. My guess is she, every one of her emotions is out there to the walls. Everything she does is to the walls. She might call it passionate. We'd probably call it something else. She isn't smart enough yet to figure out she can't talk her way out of this. You guys have heard me before say front of the mouth versus back of the mouth talking. This is all from the mouth talking. Yes, yeah, she's doing all that and she's got laugh, I know. Her eyes are up and up here are a light and her face is amused. She's asked the simplest question, what drew you to him? And she has to stop and think, hmm, didn't think of that one. And she wrenches her mouth as she's thinking. Then she comes back again with some self-amusement and I got this one. You can see she thinks she has it and then she doesn't withdraw with no response. And Scott, I think, will find a picture of her mixed messaging from the time she was a child. She's always done it. Her eyes are engaged with the person and she's doing that. Who knows what caused that? There could be something in her childhood that caused her to not be willing to be open with her messaging, but it's become, we always say, an adapter is the most common thing to become a habit. That's what we're seeing here, I think, with those lips. Scott, what do you got? All right. When she says, I thought I'd missed, I'd meant Prince Charming. I agree with you, Chase. It looks like a real smile. It really does, man, because what we're seeing is a comfortable smile. It's like you were saying, Greg, it's the one she's inspired off a thousand times and she's comfortable doing it. The thing that makes me think this isn't a Duchenne smile, Duchenne smile, is that even though she's squinting, it's not the right kind of squint. There's a squint we do when we squint our eyes. Those little wrinkles right here, they go up and they get flat like that, but when it's a real Duchenne smile, they come in at an angle. And I can't see the angle in there. Later on, there's one that does that, but I see why you think that because I was like, oh, wow, this is crazy, man. This looks like a real smile to me. This is just my opinion. Shoot, dude, I can be wrong. But I'm not seeing those things. I'm seeing them come together, but they're not coming at an angle like they're supposed to mean your brain's doing it. So that's the part that bugged me there. And like you were saying, Greg, when she says what drew you to him, she instantly purses those lips. And at that point, she's trying to make something up. She's trying to structure what she's going to say. Now, when you rely, what happens is that your brain has to do three things. First thing it has to do is stop and say, hey, don't answer that. Hang on a second. I'm not going to give them the real answer. Then it has to make up that lie. And then once it makes up the lie, it has to deliver the lie. And that's where all the action is. So we're seeing that pause in those lips purrs because she's thinking about what she's going to say next. And the smile and answering, that gives me the impression she wants to give. She's innocent and she doesn't see the monster. She wants to give all this, oh, this is also wonderful. But, you know, I didn't see it was a monster. She's talking all this wonderful stuff about it being Prince Charming and all that. So, and then at the end, that slight little green with the mouth open, I think she's thinking, I saw a doubt in that. The expression is a doubt. So maybe she's thinking, maybe I shouldn't have said that or does this woman believe me because you're right, Chase. She's looking at her. It would be tough to keep looking at that interview or if she's looking at you that way. No matter what you're talking about, once that starts and she looks like she's great at doing that, she gets that head tilted and that look going and you're like, I think that's what freaks her out a lot. So I see a lot of that blank expression she's got. So, all right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah. Okay. So first of all, classic one, super low blink rate. I mean, almost no blinking going on during this. So that's going to feel very, very odd to us. And it's a kind of an odd thing to do to have that low blink rate. So let's think about that as we move through these videos. I agree, Chase, there are some elements there of the true smile. It doesn't stay there long enough for me to even go while at the angles right on it. I mean, it's just not there for even long enough because the eyes drift away. I mean, it happens really fast, first of all, and really the smile should, you know, the amplitude of it should glide up over, you know, something less than a second, maybe, not snap. So it kind of snaps into place and then the eyes kind of drift out for me. So it feels odd as a smile. It felt good at the start, but too quick. And then it just kind of drifts away. So I don't buy the smile there. And especially as it comes around, her face gets really energized around this idea of honesty. I think the question is, as you were saying, what did you like about this guy? What attracted you? She has some time to think. She snaps in this smile and she goes honesty. So why is that? Why does she really want us to understand this honesty piece? I think she wants to be seen as honest. It's an opportunity for her to go. I can see somebody honest. Why? Because I'm an honest person. And so here's her gambit for me. She's not a sound mind, but she is really honest. And I think that's her story so far that she's trying to sell to this interviewer. Who I think, you're right, is doing a great job. But I think as we go through this, we'll start to see her not quite know what to do in this situation. Because she's seen some real cases in her time. I'm sure. But this one, this one is someone else. This is, we've not looked at somebody like this before. I don't think. And I think this interviewer is even a little bit at sea about how detached from reality this particular individual is. I thought I had met Prince Charming. Adam was your Prince Charming? Yeah. What drew you to him? What did you like about him? What I thought was his honesty about everything. And the fact that he was a single dad and that he loved his daughter enough to raise her himself and not let his family or her family raise Zara. Did you ever stop to think that it might be right to tell him you were already married? Yes. Why didn't you tell him? Me and my husband had went through several bad years and it was my understanding when I went to Australia that he filed for divorce. So it was my belief that I was divorced. Why did you introduce your husband as your brother? That's the way he loved it because he wanted to be in Zara's life and he knew that Adam wouldn't let him be in Zara's life if he knew that he was my husband. None of that makes sense. I know it doesn't. I know it doesn't. All right, Mike, what do you got? Yeah, great. Okay, so there's a lip retraction. There's purse clips before that. A retraction. And almost the lips disappear. I mean, there's lots of lip movements. Let's just say there's lots of lip movement going on there. A whole bunch of cognition goes on. What am I going to do? What am I going to do with this question? And then the eyebrows raise on that as she sells her idea, which is not accepted at all by the interviewer. And I think this is the start of where it starts to get really tricky because the interviewer is trying to get through to the truth here or some kind of semblance of logic. So let's get there in a second. If he knew that he was my husband and there's a bitter taste in the mouth, maybe contempt as well at the same time. So probably some contempt around the idea of the partners here. My guess is she files through love and contempt at quite a rate with partners there. And then such a pleasant engagement there around, I know it doesn't. I know it doesn't. And this is what's most frustrating, I think, for the interviewer is she puts down some piece of logic. The subject here says something completely illogical. The interviewer says, look, that just doesn't make sense. And she goes, yeah, what are you going to do about it? And so this is the frustration. This person is an utter whirlwind. And if this type of personality comes into your life, you're just going to get knocked around like nobody's business because all bets are off as to what a relationship is, what stage it's at, whether it's on, off, on, off, on, off, and what reality is as well. So I'm already starting to feel and by a few videos down, and one specifically, which we're not going to do because it's quite extreme, but I'm starting to get the idea that there is something quite psychotic going on here. And you might go, okay, well, that do you mean psychopathic? No, the two things are completely divorced from each other and you can have all kinds of personality disorders at the same time and some of them overlap. But once you get a lot of them coming together, it's a complete storm and I'm already starting to feel we have a complete whirlwind going on here. But as always, I'm willing to be convinced of something else. So Greg, what do you got on this one? So Mark, what you call a whirlwind, I call a brawler. This is all the earmarks of a brawler. If I say something and you don't challenge me because you're afraid to, I just say whatever the hell I want. And that's what I bet she's done her entire life because you're going to get from zero to 90 like that faster than your car chase. So it's good. But with a lot more noise, she's going to raise a lot of hell when you challenge her. And I think she's gotten away with that forever. If you don't think something is up here, look at that picture of the little girl with mixed messaging, engaged eyes. And now children learn from people around them. So God forbid we knew what happened that caused that. Don't know. But one of my favorite things in here, it's one of my favorite looks I've ever seen. Stop the camera at nine seconds. She's got this cross-eyed break eye contact look where she was like, I thought I had a response and then they second guess me. And there's an absolute look of befuddlement. A word I don't get to use very often, but that's a word that satisfies exactly that look on her face. Her brow is up. Her chin boss is engaged. The sides of her mouth are withdrawn. And there's disapproval all over when she's looking like, well, you got me there. When she said, why did you tell him? Because she had said, well, we were divorced. And then he said, well, why did you tell him he was your brother? Well, you got me. There's also this, there's a heart swallow, a shallow respiration and a narrowing of the eyes. You can tell that. And then she eye blocks. You can tell what is happening is she's gotten a point of almost anger and she can't talk her way out of it. That's why I think we got a brawler on her hand. Somebody, and I don't mean it has to be physical. It can be a lot of drama and craziness and all that. And then she puts her chin down when she starts that my husband and I had the first time we see her chin drop. It's protective. Her high forehead involvement and distancing with language that is full of filler words when she says it was my understanding instead of we filed. Because later she can come back and say, well, I said it was my understanding, not that we had done it. I think the contempt mark instead of being for her husband is for the interviewer because if you're a brawler and somebody's got you on the ropes, you're going to have contempt for that. So I think it's there. She exposes that left canine. If you don't know what contempt looks like, guys, it's the exposed one side of the mouth rises and the exposed that kind of a sneer, kind of the Elvis Presley thing. Show that canine and you can see that. And then there's that same face after that when she's painted in the corner and says, you got me? Basically she says, no, it doesn't. The same exact face that little girl shows in the picture right after. All that upper engagement, lower face disapproval. I would say we're nothing but two-year-olds covered in hair and scars. There you got it. This is the same exact person. Chase, what do you got? I agree. And I think Mark to your point about this psychosis, one, this behavioral type, whatever you want to call it. I know everybody we're so anxious to put a diagnosis here because when we label something, we feel like we understand it even though we don't and we're in more control of it even though we're not. Who cares about what it is? This behavioral type has a history of burning something down, blaming, and then revising history. So it's almost like a revisionist memory. And that's the type of person. This is just not burning something down like an arsonist. Obviously like a relationship or whatever explodes, comes to the ground and then there's blame. I can't believe all these other people did all this stuff. And then there's revisionist memory. Yeah, that happened, but I know I did this, but that's because. So the memory becomes rewritten. And I promise you every time you touch one of your memories, you are rewriting it and making edits to that memory every time you touch it. And she, these types are absolute experts at this stuff. The grief here associated with the recall of this relationship with her husband. I think that's genuine. I think there was a horrible relationship and probably some really bad stuff happened. She might have caused it. And keep in mind, we are largely a product of our childhood. And hers was awful to say the least. It was really awful. And she was married six times at one point, like Greg said, the beginning married to three men at the same time. There's not much important about the husband statement. When it comes to the case, but it's a good spot to see her baseline of kind of stress, hesitancy, and a reduced fluency. So we see the stress, we see hesitancy as a new baseline for deception. And we see a reduction in fluency or her ability to speak clearly or eloquently, if you want to say that. I don't even know if this woman could do the eloquent part. Scott, what do you got? Well, after the second question, she says, why didn't you tell him about her being the brother? Then there's no blinking at all. She does the classic stare and blinking. Her eyes are really glassy. They've been that way from the top even before she did that, that crying stuff. I think that chase to go back to what you were just saying, if this was a personality type like history on it, that I would think they'd be able to call up those emotions fairly quickly. And that's why she can bring those tears up so fast, because they bounce around in those things so quickly. So that really bothers me up to this point. She said, why did you intro your husband as your brother? We see this hard swallow, her cadence speeds up a lot. And she gets that, again, the wide eyes get those things wide open and her mouth is open. So that's almost like a combination of things. There's almost this blend of emotions. It looks like fear and a little bit of anger, because we see a micro expression of anger at the top of this thing. So there's anger there. This whole thing just says something's not right here. As you go through, that's why we're all getting that feel. We're getting when we first see it. When she says, none of that makes sense. And then she says, I know it doesn't. It smells really big. What else can she say? I mean, if she's going to answer, what else can she say? I know it doesn't. That's like little kids say stuff like that. Little children talk like that. She's trying to come on like a little child, but I don't think she had an answer any better than that. You know, and I'd say on the Scott Rouse table of that she just scored 100. Did you ever stop to think that it might be right to tell him you were already married? Yes. Why didn't you tell him? Me and my husband had went through several bad years and it was my understanding when I went to Australia that he filed for divorce. So it was my belief that I was divorced. Why did you introduce your husband as your brother? That's the way he left it, Nick, because he wanted to be in Zara's life and he knew that Adam wouldn't let him be in Zara's life if he knew that he was my husband. None of that makes sense. I know it doesn't. I know it doesn't. How did you view yourself before coming to prison? What sort of person do you believe you were? A good person. Pretty much would give you the shirt off my back. Never met a stranger. Still don't even in here. Elisa Baker already had three children and when she and Adam married and moved to her hometown of Hickory in North Carolina, she became mother to Zara. Sound better than without them? Tell me about your relationship with Zara. We hit it off right from the bat. What did you like about Zara? She had spunk about her. She never gave up. I always had a smile on her face. Always. Did you have a close bond? Very close. She called me mom and I treated her like she was my own child. She got no different treatment than my other kids did. Actually, my other kids got jealous of her. I treated her better. That's too bad. Chase, what do you got? Right here, she's saying I'm a good person. I'll give you the shirt off my back. I have it in my notes. I can't show it to you because I have it down here on the screen. I wrote down today was romance her. That was the first thing that little locked eye contact. The little slight smile, this prolonged gaze, but it's attentional gaze. I'm giving my attention out and it's kind of the cute look like the. The child actress might look if she's trying to be cute in a Disney movie. That's the behavior that you're seeing here. And right when you said, right when she said, they said I treated her better than than my other kids. This is a genuine crazy shift. I'm going to let you guys talk about this in emotion. I think to sadness, maybe remorse. Maybe there's some remorse there and you can see when the smile just falls off the face. I think it's a really interesting clip. Mark, what do you think about it? Yeah, really interesting lip lip purse to the side before she says good person. So often we relate that to some kind of withheld opinion. So maybe she doesn't truly feel that she was a good person. But of course to us, she's straight out with it. I'm a good person. Never met a stranger. She says so everybody is a friend to her and she this smile. Let's just call it a smile comes across her face. There's many, if not all of the right things in that smile, but they come at different times. So take a look at that how, you know, we expect us a smile emerges over a fraction of a second, but not instantly. And it emerges all together. The muscles don't move all together. It's extraordinary. I don't think I've seen that so clearly, clearly happening. So that's a that's a first for me to see that so well in a video here. And I think she's trying to get the interviewer to react to this. Of course, like you say, Chase, she is she's drawing the interviewer in romancing the interviewer. The interviewer isn't going with her here. I don't think the interview has seen anything like this before. I think the interviewer is though brilliant is a little bit out at sea, even for her with with this one. They said it said I treated her better. There is this hysterical laugh by that. I mean, it's extreme and it comes out of nowhere. All laughter comes from tension. All laughter is a release of tension. So, you know, if you tell a joke, there has to be tension already about the subject matter that the punchline causes the audience or whoever's watching you to release it or the linguistics of the joke are designed to build tension in the storytelling that's then released on that on that punchline into into laughter. So all laughter has tension. This is such an extreme laugh that there must be some extreme tension around this. They said I treated her better because as we know in hindsight, the way she treated that child is, you know, it can't can't be talked about without without getting us taken off YouTube. But then this laughter, just as you say, Chase collapses into nothing instantly. Again, I don't think I've seen on record a laugh like this. This is the point where I personally go. I think we should run. I think we should get out the room pretty quickly. I mean, there's it's lovely that guard at the back there who knows what he's got. He knows what he's got there. He knows that. That's Dennis. Yeah, that's Dennis. Dennis is going. Yeah, yeah. Don't worry. I know when she's about to explode. I'll be there. I'll be there. Don't worry. It's not now. But yeah, she's a this is a rare a rare thankfully a rare case, I believe. Greg, what do you got on this one? Yeah, Mark, I don't think it's as rare as you would like it to be. And by that, I mean, I think that there are a lot of people like this who are explosive to the walls in every direction. For sure. My guess is where we see that there's some genuine. It looks like grief or shame with that Chen boss engagement. And when she's talking about at the end that I treated her better than my own kids, I think I don't conjecture on what's in her head. But there's something related to how she's treated her kids. Look, a lot of people are volatile, explosive, and then remorseful and volatile, explosive, and then remorseful. People who have emotions that fill the room. And by that, I mean to the wall in every direction, often to that way. And we're going to see some other elements of that as well. But when they ask her who she is, look, I've used that many times in an interview job interview or other interview. Or I'll ask a person to find yourself. People know who they are. They don't have to look for those words. Good person. She's shopping for something to say to try to get some connection back to this woman you're dead on. She's doing that in front of the mouth. I'm a good person. And that doesn't work. And she looks for another one. I give people a shirt off my back. Yeah, probably. And then there'd be some brawling over what how that went. It's all about her. It's what I hear. And then she does chase you dead on. That's exactly what we mean by the romance. No one has ever done a better one than this. This is a definition of it. Eye contact, trying to make eye contact with that smile. Look, chimp's smile out of absolute terror. People don't realize when you see a chimp smiling, they're terrified. Maybe that smile came out of absolute terror for her as a child. Who knows where it came from. But she's fishing for approval from this interviewer with her brows up and a lot of eye contact. And my note here is I love this interviewer because she's got some hearty compassion going on there. She's just got a cold dead face looking right at her. I love it. It's beautiful. Then when they get to Zahra, I agree with you guys. That whole face change from that fake smile melts away as rapidly as we watched Amber Her change rapidly. Just racking through those things. Then when she says she called me mom, we have seen her use her head shaking no to be a negative to now. That's not confirming. I have little belief that there was a good relationship, but there could have been. There could have been all kinds of rattling. The other thing to notice is she never says, I didn't strike her. I didn't psychologically abuse her. I didn't do anything. That's not her bellwether or her measuring stick. She said, I treated them like they were my, I treated her like she was my own child. Well, she might have beaten the hell out of her own kids and she might have gone too far with her. So I don't see any place where she talks in compassionate words about this girl. She talks about, she called me mom. It's not a good thing. I don't see any of this is good. I think she's trying to grasp this woman's attention. So the woman will give her some mercy is what I think. This is a brawler waiting for an opportunity. And I think you're right. Scott, Dennis and Mark Dennis sitting behind her is like, yep, I've seen her snap. I know when she's going to snap. It's not here yet. Scott, what do you got? Okay. You're the one that brought the heartly emotions. So when somebody says, is that guy having emotions? Is that guy heartly having emotions? I always say, yeah, he's got one, but it's down to the mini mark, picking up a pack of smokes and be back in a few minutes. Now she says, what sort of person do you believe you were? Her lip pressing, as you can tell, been on a bunch of planes this week. Cause all I did was read Ekman stuff. So the lip person to the right or left where it purses to, what's it purses to the side? That suggests, I think in this case that she sees a different or an alternative outcome to what she's thinking about in here. You see bowlers do that. Somebody bowls and the ball is going this way. They go. You suggest a different outcome to them to what's happening or just happened. So I think that's what she's dealing with at this point. Then we see more of that fake Duchenne smiling at that point. And then she says, tell me about your, your relationship with Zara. That smile is so fake and so big. She overcorrects and it goes so big. It just gives you that uncomfortable feeling. And so watching this, when you see that and you get that weird feeling about somebody or something they've done or something's going on, listen to that because that's, that's the feeling you get when you see that, that same feeling you got. If you get that out in the wild, you listen to that because something's not right about that situation. You may not know what it is right then, but your brain tells you something's up and something's not right about that. What she said, she had a spunk about her. I think that's the closest thing we see to a real Duchenne smile there. That looks pretty dang close. I mean, everything comes in the way it should. I went over it and over it and over it and it, it to me, I think that's, that might be real. That might be a real one at that point. But she's under the impression she's fooled this interviewer. I think she feels good about herself and she feels like, I got this man, I got this woman fooled. I know exactly what I'm doing. And after, after she says, they said I treated her better. That huge fake smile that goes away really, really quickly. It's less than two seconds that thing disappears there at the end. I've talked about Doc Watson on here before. He's, he was a blind guy, a guitar player, famous guitar players, my dad's best friend, right? And when we tell him jokes or when I would tell him a joke, and he would be nice and act like he thought it was funny, he'd smile real big, but then really quickly, that fast, the smile would go away because being blind, he wasn't used to seeing how long people are polite by leaving that smile on their face. And then, but if something was really funny, then that face would, the smile would last a while, it would slowly go away. And in this case, even though she's been around other people and knows that it should, it should go away slowly and she should still leave that smile on there, it doesn't happen because that's not a real emotion. So when we go from, we've talked about this before, a couple of videos back where someone goes from one emotion to another motion to another motion, or to another one expression to another to another like that. Just bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. Those are fake expressions. It was Amber Heard. That's what it was when she would do those things. She wanted in the other than the other. That's when you know they're fake. That's when you can count on them not being real. And that's what's happened in this case. That's why it disappears so quickly. All right, we good? Yeah. All right. Yeah, Mark got you all on that one. How did you view yourself before coming to prison? What sort of person do you believe you were? A good person. Pretty much would give you the shirt off my back. Never met a stranger. Still don't. Even in here. Elisa Baker already had three children. And when she and Adam married and moved to her hometown of Hickory in North Carolina, she became mother to Zara. They're better than without them. Tell me about your relationship with Zara. We hit it off right from the bat. What did you like about Zara? She had spunk about her. She never gave up. Always had a smile on her face. Always. Did you have a close bond? Very close. She called me mom. And I treated her like she was my own child. She got no different treatment than my other kids did. Actually, my other kids got jealous of her. Basically, I treated her better. Why would a school teacher give her her own personal cell number and say to her, if you ever need me, call me? That right there was out of protocol. I even said something to the principal about that. Me and Adam went because that was against the rules. They should not have ever done that. Why did you sign a piece of paper here that admitted that you have a history of physical, verbal and psychological abuse of Zara? I never signed that paper. You did? There's your signature. It's okay. Somebody's had me sign something I should have signed because that's not so. That's not your signature. Along with your attorney. That's not your signature. That's my plea bargain, right? Yes, but you signed that you accept that you had a history and a pattern of physical, verbal and psychological abuse of Zara. That was him with my plea bargain. So you signed it. Yes, ma'am. Yeah. All right. Mark, what do you get? Yep. Once again, low-blink rate. Interesting. Interesting. But more interesting for me is she is negotiating. It was not even negotiating everything. She is just wiping everything that comes along and ultimately not taking any responsibility at all. It happens one, two, three, I think four, five times that I can be bothered to listen to her. She is thoroughly annoying because of that zero responsibility for what's gone on here. What a trying person to be around. And I think the interviewer here, it's really testing the interviewer's patience around this. Australian. So she's going to be a little less patient or polite or a little bit more aggressive. Sorry, Australians, but you know that's true. You know that's true. So she's being tested here because this is an annoying person to interview. That's what I'll say about that one. Scott, what do you got on this one? You hate this woman. I know you do. All right. The thing that bugged me about this is she didn't answer the question and she let her get away with it. She asked her why she signed it and she didn't get the answer. So that's the only thing bothering me about it. I don't think Gail King would let her get away with that. But she didn't answer the question. So that kind of bugs me. That's really all I got on that. That's all I could focus on all that. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, so Mark, I've been looking for a homeland. You just told me where I need to move. No patience for BS. My people. Yeah, yeah. They'll have you in with open arms. Put them on a plane, give you one seat, give your emotion one seat and you all go together. Yeah, I'm that guy. So look, she starts off with chaff and redirect. I think this woman has gotten away with being an irrational actor her whole life. Chase, you talk about her read whatever word you were using. I forget the word, but she's redesigning or re-architecting whatever happened. I don't think she's even that smart. I think she just blows everything away and goes, oh, yeah, no. The same thing, but biobliteration, not by intent. I think she just doesn't have to be rational, not ever had to be rational. People let her get away with things. And if this husband won't tolerate it, well, I'll marry two more at the same time. What the hell? That's irrational. There's no other way to describe that. She does a chaff and redirect is how she gets away with it, by the way. She does that. And guys, if you've never watched this, chaff is what an aircraft releases to get missiles to follow it. She does a very artful one. And she also uses another thing. I call aiming stake argument. She goes for the wall. She doesn't go and say, OK, well, I don't know why she would have done that. Maybe she misunderstood something. She goes, well, wait a minute. What were they doing overstepping their bounds by giving out that phone number? Wait a minute. That's how you get away from answering the question. This is the equivalent of me saying, hey, Chase, what the hell were they doing in my yard? What are you talking about? She avoided the question by challenging what happened instead of answering why. And then she denies, just outright denies, with a childlike approach, just deny it and see if it goes away. That works for her, or she leaves, or she gets in a fight. That's a brawler approach, because what a brawler does is just say, no, it didn't happen. And then when you challenge them again, then you're in their territory because they're ready to come back at you. Because aggression is their wheelhouse. We know she has a history of domestic violence and other violence, including with this child. Then when they finally get to the point, she says, oh, it is my signature. I'll concede, but I'll say I didn't know what I was signing. Somebody made me sign something I shouldn't have. She's using kind of a gradiation of guilt. And if you saw this done by an intelligent person where they slowly shifted and make it work, it's artful. Where they get to a point where they're like, well, okay, I made a mistake. But there is not art in this woman. She's just coarse and dumb. And she comes across as just that. And then she shows distaste at being required to admit that she said it. You see that thing that she does with her face. This time it's not an illustrator. It's controlling and trying to show that distaste. That's what I got. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, I agree with you guys. So if you are ever being questioned and you really want to do this well and you want to chaff and redirect very well, use a few words from the person's question in your chaff and redirect, and it will give it the placebo of an answer. Let's call it a placebo answer. And when we're doing this chaff and redirect, that's what we see here. It's not answered. I think this shows us a little about the person that she is. Her default is to point in another direction. And so the teacher violated a protocol instead of answering the real meaning of the question. And I think this shows us that she's likely to default to this behavior in times of confrontation. And if you see initial behavioral patterns like this, you can preempt these patterns by modifying the way you ask your next few questions. So if it becomes, it really becomes a lot easier to nail somebody down when you can spot these patterns just like this. And I think she knows that this was in her plea bar. I have no doubt. But we're seeing what Greg, you were talking about, this revisionist thing that I don't think there's a, there's a whole lot of stuff going on up here. But I do think that it could potentially happen unconsciously, that she has a habit of just unconsciously putting dynamite in all of her memories, so to speak. So we're seeing more patterns emerge of hesitancy. Yeah, just hesitancy there. And as a quick pro tip, if you see somebody routinely looking in one direction to access, in this case, you're seeing emotional, she's done this downright to her right the whole time. When you hand them a photo, a document, a piece of evidence, or anything you want them to remember or think about, it at a position that forces their eyes to move in their normal accessing position from their baseline. Cool pro tip. That's all I got. Hey, Greg, go through Chaff and redirect one time real quick, because I've got a video I can put up that'll be perfect for that. Yeah, and I've got a great photo. Yeah, so all Chaff and redirect, this comes from my military days where military aircraft, if a missile is coming, they dump flares and lots of metal and all kinds of things out the back of the aircraft, so that those missiles, if they're heat seeking or otherwise follow that and don't hit the plane. Now, what a person does is they just throw out useless words, and Chase had a great one there around using their words, but useless words so that you seize on one of them and follow that. It's like distraction is all it is. And then you redirect when they hit the piece of Chaff. Excellent. Top Gun Maverick has some great Chaff shots. Oh, yeah. It does. It does, yeah. What a great movie. Yeah, it was a great movie. I love that movie. Better than the first one, I think, yeah. Yeah, I think so too. Oh, yeah. Why would a school teacher give her her own personal cell number and say to her, if you ever need me, call me? That right there was out of protocol. I even said something to the principal about that. Me and Adam went because that was against the rules. They should not have ever done that. Why did you sign a piece of paper here that admitted that you have a history and a pattern of physical, verbal, and psychological abuse of Zara? I never signed that paper. You did? There's your signature. That's no case. Somebody's had me sign something I shouldn't have signed because that's not so. That's not your signature. Along with your attorney. That's not your signature. That's my plea bargain, right? Yes, but you signed that you accept that you had a history and a pattern of physical, verbal, and psychological abuse of Zara. That was in with my plea bargain. So you signed it? Yes, ma'am. Yeah. By this time, it was like three, three someone were running there and she was laying on her bed and I said, Zara, are you okay? And I walked over to the bed and I said, Zara, she still didn't move. I put my hand on her and I could tell she wasn't breathing. My first thought was CPR and so I immediately started CPR. I worked on her for probably about 30 minutes and couldn't get her back. Begging the whole time for God not to take her. You know, right then I should have called 911 but I got scared. Oh, what? I didn't know what to do. I've never been faced with anything like that. I've never... If you'd done CPR, you'd done 911, wouldn't you? Most people would have, yes. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, let's make this quick because it's just too full of fillers for me to pay any attention to. Let's go through them by this time, like, somehow, around there and so I, you know, but. I mean, what happens is she says it at such a pace and with some details in there that you might think there is something of truth going on there but the amount of fillers and the repetition of filler in there just says to me immediately this didn't go down anything like what she's talking about and look, we know that in hindsight but if this was somebody telling me this story right in front of me, I wouldn't buy it at all simply because of the amount of fillers going on there. Chase, what do you got on this one? Yeah, so God bless this child for, you know, you can't pick your parents or your step-parents so I cannot imagine that lifestyle before everything happened even and Mark, you're a bastard. I had those same words counted. I had the same words counted. So right off the bat in this, we're seeing these hallmark patterns that you've probably identified already since you've been listening to the previous profiling videos. There's chest breathing, hesitancy and loss of fluency. These are the hallmarks for her especially and right when she says she's talking about Zara, are you okay? No more recall movement to her normal downright movement. None. There's down middle, down and middle which is a hard deviation from baseline, I would call it. And when she says I could tell she wasn't breathing, this is a shift into bad writing mode. So let me give you a quick example. Think about reading these phrases in a book. Which one is more powerful? She could tell she wasn't alone in the room and he saw there was a knife in the drawer. So think about those two. If you're speaking in true first person, the bad parts are removed. She wasn't alone in the room. There was a knife in the drawer that he saw. She realized she discovered go away when you're in true first person. So now think about her statement through this lens where I could tell she wasn't breathing. I could tell would be removed in true first person there. And the same thing. My first thought was CPR. And so I started doing CPR. That's not true first person. There's hesitancy, loss of fluency, lip licking is a 900% increase from her baseline, which is what we deem as a potential deception indicator. So it's deviation from emotional accessing as well, which is her usual downright movement. Scott, what do you got? Yeah, I know for sure at least three of us have applied CPR when the time came more than once. And when she said I was working on her. When you do CPR, five minutes is a long time. On a bed. That's a long time. On a bed. On a bed. Well, yeah. Okay. No, no, no. There's more work. Yeah. Well, she's supposed to pull her off the bed. If she had, which goes to my point, if she had done the training, which I don't think she did, she doesn't know how to do CPR. She just thinks she does. You don't do it on a bed. Same way Michael Jackson's doctor did him on the bed. Are you kidding me? You pull them off the bed and you get them on the floor. Right? It's hard to do that for five minutes. I had to do it for 12 minutes once. And they almost had to do me. That's how bad it was. It takes a lot to do that the right way. It takes a lot. And five minutes is an eternity when you're waiting on somebody to come and help you. And she wasn't even waiting on somebody. She said she worked on her for 30 minutes. What should you do? Go outside and smoke a cigarette and then come back and go, well, she would have known how long that child had been there because she would have been cold when she touched her. If she was doing any of that and she would have felt that when she put her hands on her, she would have known that. So that whole thing to me is, again, that's none of that's true in there. I don't think anything like that ever happened at all. I agree with you, Mark. It didn't happen. Nothing like that happened whatsoever. And 1,000 bucks is she's never had CPR training at all. She's heard somebody on TV say, I worked on them or whatever. No, she didn't work on anybody. She's worked on the stuff she did before she buried that kid. So, okay, getting all worked up. Greg, what do you got? I'm going to give her the benefit of a doubt and even assume that she did do CPR. I'm just going to give a benefit of a doubt because it would seem like 30 minutes. I agree with you. I've given CPR before and it's never a pleasant thing, first of all. If you care about the person, it has to be a lot worse. Not that I'm saying she cares. I think she's a brawler. I think she does all kinds of stuff. Let's assume for a minute that she did something she didn't intend to do in one of those states. The kid is hurt. Maybe she would do CPR. So I'll give her a benefit of a doubt. And I'm thinking of what to say next, just like she is. The first thing that we see out of her is concern in her brow. And we haven't seen it yet when she's talking about time. That immediately makes me think she's navigating and figuring out how they're going to perceive this. I got to figure out where it was. Then she says weird word patterns. Maybe it's a hickory North Carolina thing. I don't know. But she says she was laid out on the bed. Those are words that mean something. When you think of a transitive or intransitive verb lying down on the bed or laying out on the bed, it's one thing, but being laid out on the bed sounds like somebody put you there to me. So my immediate question would be, well, hold on. How does she get there? Then we get to, and the interviewer by now has absolutely lost all interest in her. That interview has absolute contempt in her face when she's looking at her. And we see, and we see her do that lip withdrawal again. That's an illustrator still here. But listen to the difference in her cadence as she goes into that. And, and, and Mark, you pointed out all the different filler words she slows down. And all those long vowels are not in her baseline. Mark, she does some verbal clicking you always bring up. And at each milestone of her story, she makes hard eye contact and romances again to see if you're buying it. After that, she does that brow down. After that, I pray to God that she would come back. I almost wonder, when we see a brow down, we almost think anger. You know, we associate that with anger. We see the brow down. Did something happen and she's angry because she couldn't bring her back? Don't know. Can't tell. But something is up here. And I'm with you, Scott. She might have done something akin to CPR. I doubt she's had any training in that. And would just say, where did she go from there? But most people, when they ask her, most people would say, how do I, I would then respond to her when she said, well, most people, I would say, tell me what you did and tell me why you didn't do it. I wouldn't let her away with that. When she told me she did CPR, I would have said, tell me what you did. So I could get all the input. Here we have to depend on what we believe and what we think and what we feel. But in the case of her, I would push her and ask her how she did the CPR and all that. And she would come apart because her hands would get longer and longer and longer and longer because she's lost cognitive ability. That's all I got. I think the anger you're seeing is towards the child. That's what I think she was mad about. I think whatever happened was happened. That's what she's thinking about when she did the care. And Scott, I think it could be that she blew up, did something. That's what I'm saying. The kid got hurt and fell and then, or whatever, and then she was trying to do something to rescue the kid, but too late. That's what I'm saying is because there's anger. There's surely anger. Yeah. Sorry, Chase. What are you saying, Chase? I'm just asking her, how are you different than most people? Yeah. Because she's good. Differentiating himself herself from the people who would call 911, you know? Yeah. Yep. Why didn't you? Yeah. Yeah. I got no room for this. Good. By this time it was like three, three someone were running there. And she was laying on her bed and I said, Zara, are you okay? And I walked over to the bed and I said, Zara, she still didn't move. I put my hand on her and I could tell she wasn't breathing. My first thought was CPR. And so I immediately started CPR. I worked on her for probably about 30 minutes and couldn't get her back. Begging the whole time for God not to take her, you know? Right then I should have called 911, but I got scared. Oh, what? I didn't know what to do. I've never been faced with anything like that. I've never... If you'd done CPR, you'd dial 911, wouldn't you? Most people would have, yes. Alisa alleges she called Zara's father, Adam, and that it was he who dismembered Zara. If we're going to believe anything you say, why would you ring the police and say, I'm not having a part of this? That is the most heinous thing to do. He was my husband. Please. That's not good enough. It's not. It's just not good enough. You know that. I know. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, I'll keep this one short. This is why I know this is a brawler. She's starting to show here. Look at her. She's not taking it lightly that she's being locked down and she's forcing her to respond to this. This is the first time we've seen that leg bounce and we see her turn her head away. If you've ever been around redneck fighters, pub fighters, Mark, maybe it's what you'd say somewhere in the UK, a lot of times the first indication there's about to be violence is that head withdrawal and then coming back and you see her leg bounce. Just about guarantee you this woman has a short fuse and blows up. Now she's making hard eye contact and this is not romance. This is stare down. This is hard condemning eye contact. When she admits this, she goes, I know she throws those words away or fading facts, whatever you would like to call it here. And this just shows me she's had a pattern of people being too afraid to say anything because she would blow up. I just about guarantee you we're seeing precursors to violence in her in there and I was looking to see if our guy in the back was going, wait a minute, wait a minute, gonna get on the edge of this chair. No. Scott, what do you got? All right. Yeah, I agree with you completely. That head down and that shoulder coming up over there and that lip person that, hmm, she's a brawler man. She's been more in one fight in her time. But now when you're observing body language, you have to take into put into context everything going around what's happening, what you see in that picture, what's happening, what's the, what are the people doing around you? Are there cars going by is there something else going on in the room? And having said that, my favorite part of this whole episode, like you just alluded to, Greg was Dennis back there, because at one point you can see him check the sound guy when she says, that's just not good enough. He looks over at the sound guy, then he looks back. He's like, dude, you listening to this? And you can see that in his face. He wants to talk so bad. We've seen compresses lips and take that big deep breath because he wants to jump in and say something about that because he knows her. He's around her a lot apparently in that prison because he's, that's what he does for a living. He keeps an eye on those people. So he knows what she is. He knows what she's about. And you're right, Greg. That's why he's so close to her. I think Mark might have said that earlier as well. He's so close to her because she's liable to pop off and swing at that lady. We've all experienced that at one time or another. Somebody was popping off at the wrong time. But that's what I think's happening there. And of course she doesn't see that. And I think that for me, for this one section was the most interesting, was watching him and keeping an eye on what he's doing. You can see how these emotions run through his face because he's sitting there wanting to say something so bad because he knows what kind of person she is. Chase, where do you got? Yeah. And right away when you guys are talking about this like backward head movement and the eye contact going away, the head moving away. If a person's head moves to their left, you're going to get hit with their right hand. 99% of the time. So that's a good, just a good little rule of thumb. Teach your kids that are going off to college this year. And what she says, he was my husband. This is a shoulder shrug here. A double shoulder shrug, which we typically do in our culture as almost a nonverbal apology to accompany whatever we're saying. Maybe it's an apology for me. I don't know. I don't have anything else for you. I'm sorry. There's a head shake. There's a deviation from baseline accessing location. And the interviewer obviously just wanting to probably go back to her hotel is saying, this is not good enough. You can see here, the interviewer is now just unconsciously capitalizing. I think capitalizing on the fact that in Lisa, this person here in Liza is now not only in retreat, but seems to be hyper responsive to authority. So we're seeing a little more responsive to authority here. And she, I think in my opinion, she's regressing. And just to cover that really fast, regression is a defense mechanism where people kind of return to an earlier developmental stage. And when some, when some people are emotionally overwhelmed, they might revert to some childhood strategy to have their needs met. And you'd also see that if she's prone to do this, she may have regressed to a similar coping mechanism from childhood during the crime. Maybe one that got rid of toys, got rid of people, got rid of things that were no longer serving her needs during a time of conflict or stress. So we might see a pattern of regression here, just a bit quick behavior profiling tip for you. Mark, what do you think? Yeah. So all the same stuff. Nothing new here. Double shoulder shrug as you said that chase. He was my husband. I blocked turn of the head leg movement there. Yeah. It looks like some pre-violence for me. But Dennis, just as you was saying, I saw Dennis in the background there. Not enough for Dennis to move forward in his chair. Like Dennis is there going, no, it's not going to kick off yet. But I've got a little, yeah. And the interviewer there, that's not good enough. Yeah. I think she's been triggered into an authoritative stance on this. I don't think she's got anywhere to go at this point, apart from say, that's not good enough. I think she's at the end of a Teva here chase. And like you say, the sooner she gets into a hotel room and if she's a drinker, you know, knocks a couple back, the better because I think she's short of usual good strategies around this particular personality type. You know, I've got a little story in my mind, Scott, about what Dennis is thinking here. This is just imaginative. But I think he looks off to the side. As the interviewer goes, that's not good enough. That's not good enough. He looks off to the side and says to himself, well, you took the interview. Like, you know, this is just, there's more where this came from. There's so much more where this came from. I think Dennis is slightly incredulous about what did you think you were getting here? I live with her. I live with her. Like this is nothing compared to what she can deliver. So nothing new there, but great stuff. What an earthquake she is. There, that's all I got. Big shout out to Dennis. Big shout out to him. Yeah, man, thank you. Yeah, keep up the good work, man. If you're watching. How bad he is. Emails. Yeah, yeah. Well, since you picked your chase. Alisa alleges she called Zara's father Adam and that it was he who dismembered Zara. If we're going to believe anything you say, why would you ring the police and say, I'm not having a part of this? That is the most heinous thing to do. He was my husband. Please. That's not good enough. It's not. It's just not good enough. You know that. I know. Of course, the evidence doesn't show that what you're saying is the truth. Does it? It does to a point, but there's a little bit. Not even to a point. The phone records show that on the day the body was disposed of, the day that you told police it was disposed of, there were something like nine calls. And many of those calls were to Adam. Why would you call him if he's right beside you? He was calling my phone. I wasn't calling his because he kept losing my phone. No, you were calling him. I wasn't calling him. Phone records show that he was 20 miles away. He wasn't with you. Was he? Yes, ma'am. I don't think so. That's the truth, isn't it? No, ma'am. Phone records confirm Adam was at work, not in the area where Zara's body was disposed of, but that Elisa's cell phone was. Did you murder Zara? No, ma'am. Why do you deny this when the evidence is overwhelmingly that you did? Because I'll continue to stand by my story. You'll continue to lie? No. I'll stand by my story. Scott Riley, your lawyer, said that the evidence was overwhelmingly against you. I think he said that the evidence was such that it would take a jury, something like five minutes to convict you. Something like that. What if your own lawyer says that? What does it say about you? That nobody was listening to what I was saying. They were going by circumstantial evidence. They weren't going by anything I was saying. All right, Mark, what have you got? Yep. She is just belligerent with her lies when the facts are placed in front of her. It is so frustrating when somebody does that. It's so frustrating because it's completely belligerent and, you know, slightly detached from the reality that everybody knows to be factual out there. How annoying. The second annoying thing is, what does that say about you? Which is a great question because it's a self-reflective question. Great question. Where does she go with that? Well, it says that other people weren't listening to me. It's like, what a great deflection out to it being everybody else's fault. Everybody else's fault. I mean, I'm going to give credit to the interviewer here for not just standing up and knocking her own head against the wall on this one. Greg, what have you got? Yeah, my note says little Elisa is still lying like she's five years old. This is a child style of lying. I know you are, but what am I? You know, that kind of thing. It's that kind of childish, stupid response. She tries to lawyer what I would call a barracks lawyer. I clean up my language. I call a barracks lawyer when she starts off with it does to a point. Well, no, it doesn't. And when she says not even to a point, you get this is not adapting. This is disapproval. She pulls her mouth back and then she does an eye lock and there is no romance. Again, this is eye lock. This is aggression. Her upper lids fluctuate and open up and show more of her upright. We usually associate that with anger. She does that. I know what you are, but what am I? I call this the farce defense. Anytime somebody says something, you say no, no, no until they get to fact. And then you just say maybe, but so what? Well, you can't discuss anything logically with a person like that. People who argue feelings argue like this. And people who are not accustomed to being challenged do this. So if they're the big fish in their pond, they may say so what or walk away from something. It's what she's doing. Habitual liars do it all the time. And if she's scrappy enough that her friends are not going to break color on it or acquaintances are not in color. And then she's got a problem at did you murder her? Her respiration increases. And then at five minutes, when she's talking about what does that say about you? She starts adapting a lot, moving around. She lifts her lips a lot more. She does some real emotional eye accessing. And the way you can tell it's real is because she gets out of person. She goes away. There's that thousand yard stare. She goes away from contact. She's not making connections. She's gone into her own little wheelhouse there to work. It makes me wonder when she goes to a motion and she's doing all this adapting what the relationship with the lawyer was like. Was she volatile with him as well? Or her? I don't know whether it was a man or a woman. Scott said so. Assume it was him. And then when she says, what does it say about you? My notes say she piled on a few more cords of wood to come up with this answer. It took her a few minutes to say it's not about me. People just didn't understand. And it's funny because her voice gets soft for the first time. Really soft. Not from the mouth talking, but her voice gets soft and her face softens back to that same thing she's done before. She's back to what made her successful. And it's not working. It's just not working. Scott, what do you got? All right. After that first question, we see her cadence slows down. Again, her blink rate slows down. She stares, you know, and she says, not even to a point. Then she makes the very same face, the very same face I would make. If I won the $150 million powerball after the question about calling her husband. And she's saying, no, he was calling me her head. Let's, let's look at that as an illustrator at that point. Those should be confirmation shakes. No, it wasn't me. I didn't do it. Those should be hitting on words. They're not. They're just swimming back and forth. And she's saying that, but it shouldn't. It should be stopping at specific points in the same rhythm as she's speaking, but it's not. Those things are detached. That's one thing that lets us know or it suggests that that's probably deceptive, most likely deceptive. And when the interviewer says, did you murder Hazara? Then she says, Zahara. She says, have you ever seen somebody or heard of someone talking out of the side of their mouth? That's what she starts with here. The left side of her mouth opens up and then the full mouth opens up. She starts talking. So that lets us know or that indicates that something's probably not right here as well. She doesn't want to say that. She doesn't want to because her brain, like we talked about earlier, has to do three things. The first thing it makes you do is not give the right answer. It's going to say, hey, hang on a minute. We don't want to give that answer. Then create an answer, create the lie, and then deliver it. And that's where all the action is. And that's what we're seeing at that point. And she said, why do you deny this? Because I'll stand by my story. I'll continue to stand by my story. There's your answer right there because I'll continue to stand by my story. She didn't say, I'm not lying about it or anything. She said, why are you going to keep lying about this? Why are you going to keep denying it? Because I'm going to stand by my story. That says everything there. What more do you want at that point? And after the question, taking the jury five minutes to convict her and she says, what if your lawyer says that too? What about that? That's when we see, again, we see that lip person to one side, which suggests and indicates that she sees a different outcome than what's been presented to her at this point. So that's where I'm sitting with that. Chase, what do you got? Oh, man. I thought we had this one there. It's been months. I thought you were right. It's been months. Man. Just escape. Who's Shane's smile? Close. What is Shane? How'd you know? I don't know. I just got a feeling. I don't know. All right. Go ahead. The good thing we're going to edit that out. Yeah. All right. This defense strategy is all about innocence. I fully agree with you guys. She's reverting to what worked for her at a younger age here. Greg, you were talking about this kind of childlike behavior. In my notes, I wrote playground defense mechanisms at play here. I didn't write the at play here part, but this constantly raised eyebrows here. This need to make the eyes bigger is something we tend to do by default when we're trying to appear really innocent. So you see your kids do this all the time. I'm sure. And it makes the face look more like a baby. But we're more conscious. We are more protective of babies. We're more believing of babies. And in essence, since the perception of this is unconscious and the sending of this is probably unconscious. This is one unconscious trying to trick another one. Unconsciously. So I think that's pretty interesting here. So we're seeing this war of innocence and contempt at the same time and still trying to win over contempt by using innocence instead of fact, story, reasoning. Innocence is what will save her in her own mind. Who the hell are you, Mark Bowden? Well, this whole idea of. Innocence evil and innocence. That's all I got. Nice. There's no leaning. Of course, the evidence doesn't show that what you're saying is the truth, does it? It does to a point, but there's a little bit. Not even to a point. The phone records show that on the day the body was disposed of, the day that you told police it was disposed of, there were something like nine calls. And many of those calls were to Adam. Why would you call him if he's right beside you? He was calling my phone. I wasn't calling his because he kept losing my phone. No, you were calling him. I wasn't calling him. Phone records show that he was 20 miles away. He wasn't with you. Was he? Yes, ma'am. I don't think so. That's the truth, isn't it? No, ma'am. Phone records confirm Adam was at work, not in the area where Zara's body was disposed of, but that Elisa's cell phone was. Did you murder Zara? No, ma'am. Why do you deny this when the evidence is overwhelmingly... Because I'll continue to stand by my story. You'll continue to lie. No, I'll stand by my story. Scott Riley, your lawyer, said that the evidence was overwhelmingly against you. I think he said that the evidence was such that it would take a jury something like five minutes to convict you. Something like that. What if your own lawyer says that? What does it say about you? That nobody was listening to what I was saying. They were going by circumstantial evidence. They weren't going by anything I was saying. You were innocent. Fight it. Why didn't you? You heard the evidence. It's against me. Well, that means from what I could see, you are as guilty as sin. You are a guilty woman. And you will not take responsibility for your actions. There again, that's your opinion. It's the opinion of the state. It's an opinion of the lawmakers. It is the opinion of your own family. Some of my family. All right, Mike, what do you got? Yeah, just one thing on this. There is a on some of my family. Very quick, but let's see if we can stop it and see that moment. There's a snarl of anger there and contempt disdain and disdain actually, because it's about some of my family. So aggressive, very aggressive disdain there. I would not want to be one of the family members that she is disdainfully angry at there because that is a very, very violent look that you get for just a moment there. Imagine if you saw that look sustained over time. That's the explosive one. That's when you'd want to be moving to the door and getting out the way of that whirlwind. Greg, what do you got on this one? Yeah, I think this one sums her up. She's contrarian in this case. She's just going back at it. Oddly enough, it's the first time we see her use a fact to deflect any kind of blame. But watch her. There's a really interesting one we rarely see here. When she is being berated, watch her upper lid pulse. It opens. It pulses. It moves a little bit and then back down more than one time. You just have to pay really close attention. As that's going on, that indicates anger. When your eyes are flexing open, that's indicating anger. She mills her jaw, her mouth narrows. When I say milling her jaw, she's gripping her teeth. Her jaw then, she then braces in the chair. She mills her jaw again. Her breathing pattern changes and her mouth gets narrow and square. Then she uses the only time she's used a fact. And that was she was emphatic with all that language sum of my family. That's her only fact we've seen the entire thing. You're getting close to pulling who we're going to see. If you pushed her a little bit more right here, you probably would... Scott, this is one of those people that punch you in the mouth in the interrogation room. If you push them a little bit too far. Scott, what do you got? Okay. All right. Mark, where are you talking about that micro expression? Where are you seeing that? It is on some of my family. It's around that area. Okay. You'll see the lip go up. Okay. Very, very fast lip go up. Yeah. I got one after that first question on against me. That's where we're seeing one. And that obviously with that question that made her mad. We see it there because she's angry that she got convicted. That's my impression of my opinion anyway. Then after that she's your guilty of sin and you won't take responsibility for your actions. She waits six seconds to reply. Takes forever. Again, why is that? Because she's structuring her answers. She doesn't want to answer, but she's having to make up something, which she probably has one loaded back there, but she's still waiting to unload it at that point. It just did this whole thing again. She just scores really big on my meter, on my table of elements for, you know, just not good enough. Yeah. It stinks. Chase, what do you got? Yeah. You guys covered everything. I fully agree with you. So let me just offer a quick pro tip here. This childlike demeanor. You're going to see this response in employees and children and people you work with, people that are working for you. You're going to see this every once in a while. And if you see this in somebody you're ever interviewing or speaking to, there are a few things that you can do to trigger this even more. Why would you want to do that? You're going to make them hyper responsive to authority. You're going to make them behave differently in a way that you can predict the future of behavior. If I know a person is using some kind of behavioral script, I can predict it. The further I can push them down into that script, the more I can predict future behavior. So here's a couple of tips on how to push them further down. If you've seen this kind of behavior in person. Number one, use their name with an upward tone. So like if Scott was doing this and I was interviewing Scott, I might say now Scott, that little upward tone, almost like an elementary school teacher pushes them further into that thing. Number two, don't ever let them interrupt. So big hand up anytime they try to interrupt, don't let it happen. Number three, interrupt them on occasion with a very parental figure tone, a parent figure tone. That's not condescending, but it's a parent calmly talking to a child who's spun up. That's going to trigger every single part of them that sends them into that mode or that reminds them of that mode and it makes their behavior predictable. This can help to make them more compliant, but the downside of this is that the entire strategy of the interview then has to change to adapt to the vulnerabilities of this behavior. You're innocent, fight it. Why didn't you? You heard the evidence against me. Well, that means from what I could see, you are as guilty as sin. You are a guilty woman and you will not take responsibility for your actions. There again, that's your opinion. It's the opinion of the state. It's an opinion of the lawmakers. It is the opinion of your own family. Some of my family. Well, the wife he never really had considers her fate. You have to accept that the evidence is against you. Yes, ma'am, I know that. Why then am I not looking at one of the most reviled evil women in America? Probably in your eyes you think you are. No remorse. I have remorse. What is it? I wish things would have been different. Well, you have a long time to consider it. Yes, ma'am, I do. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, this is a really interesting one because listen to her tone. All that front-of-mouth talking goes away. When she's attacked, when she starts to ask her questions about what kind of a person does that make you who you are, she talks differently. She says, I think I'm looking at one of the most evil people in America. If I were from your point of view, I'm certain you are. Her voice tone is not at all what we've heard up to now. And then she drops into that I feel remorse and it goes back into that same thing. What I think we're seeing here is I believe she feels remorse, but I think she feels remorse for being where she's at and locked up because she gets emotional when you say you got a long time to think about it. I think what we're seeing is the real person come out for just a second there. And this authority face that she's been using the whole time comes back out when she gets down to the point where she has sadness. It's what I see. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so she's taking this argument of, you know, that's just your point of view. And, you know, you're like this, Greg. I think this particular subject is just living her truth. That's all. She's just living her truth. And what does this remind us of is that when some people are living their truth, it is their truth is so abstract, so different from the rest of society's truth that we call it an antisocial personality disorder. There is something so devoid of the general locus of the rest of society's idea that it's no good for them to live their truth anymore. You have to give them some help or lock them up if they're violent and often, you know, they are. So, and to this point, actually I'll leave the remorse piece because I'm sure others have something to say on that. Chase, what do you got on that one? Pass it to Scott. I was just going to say that. I don't think she knows what remorse means. I don't think she has any earthly idea. She thinks it means that you feel bad. She doesn't understand the definition of remorse. Now I'm going to make that short because I can't wait to see what Chase has to say. I know it's going to be funny. What do you got, Chase? Yeah, I think if the interviewer said, what is remorse? Well, if you moarse and you do it again, you're remorse. You're going to just remorse. You moarse and then you remorse. But then... That was worth waiting for. Is that like remorse code? This is getting worse and this is right down the combo, you guys. This is bad. The worst episode ever. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Chase, we'll not be with us next week. You're always going to be watching this late into this episode. We won't do this again. Nobody's watching right now. We do anything we want to. The wife he never really had considers her fate. You have to accept that the evidence is against you. Yes, ma'am, I know that. Why then am I not looking at one of the most reviled evil women in America? Probably in your eyes you think you are. No remorse. I have remorse. What is it? I wish things would have been different. Well, you have a long time to consider it. Yes ma'am, I do. Well, we were going to throw it out of the room and see what everybody thought. Let's do it. How are we going around the room? I got it, yeah. So let's throw it out of the room and see what everybody thinks in 30 seconds. Mark. Yeah, I think what we have here is a collision of different personality disorders. I've not seen anything like this before to the level of this violence as well and violence on a minor. So I think this is a new one for me. Chase, what do you think? Yeah, I think Elisa lived a hard life. I think rougher than most of us could possibly even imagine. And this for me is a powerful reminder of the power of parents and making kids feel confident and socially connected from a very young age. I'm not making any excuses here for her. You saw the same things here today that you can immediately apply in your life. You saw a whole lot of stuff here in this video that you can use at work. You can use it with your kids. And a lot of probably new behaviors that we probably didn't speak about before. So great episode. Greg. Yeah, I'm with you. A parenting is where it starts. But then there are other people have to put up fences too. Life is about entitlement and expectations. Everybody has entitlements. Some people have expectations. But you should draw lines around what people are allowed to do to you and against you. This is like one of those dogs who just has never found a fence and they just run all along. If you put up an invisible fence, one of those that shocks a dog when they run out, some dogs are strong-willed enough to run through it and get out and then can't get back in. Might be the case. But if you start putting up fences, you'll slow down some of that movement. And this person needed that desperately. Scott, what do you got? I agree with all you guys. And I think this is a great study and seeing someone who thinks they're smarter than someone else. And we're seeing a person and showing us the person that they're not. Showing us the person they throw up to jump behind to do their bidding or to do whatever it is to tell the story they need told. In this case, you put up this child-like person which I'm sure, like you said, Greg, I'm sure she's done this a million times throughout her life because she did it with such ease. Sometimes she would go too far and sometimes she wouldn't go far enough with it. That's why we're seeing sometimes she would overcorrect with her smiles and those types of things. And I agree with you, Mark, there's so many personality types going on. There's not like tons of them, but there are quite a few things going on in that situation. I don't think we're looking at a psychopath here. I think we're probably looking at an anti-social personality type, but I don't think it goes as far as psychopathy in this case. I think it's all the things that build up that would make a psychopath if there were actually problems with the amygdala, which I don't think there are. But I don't think we're talking about a psychopath here. I think we're just looking at a criminal. Somebody who's really mean and a bad person. And like you said, Chase, raised horribly in a horrible situation and horrible surroundings. Obvious in this kind of thing. All right, fellas, I think this is a good one, and we'll see you next time. Yep. The behavior panel. That's great. Wow. That's too bad. 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