 All right, in three, two, one, action. All right, so we're here sitting here with Daniel Holtzer, who is a registered clinical counselor and the founder of Skylar Counseling Clinic here in Vancouver. Daniel, thank you so much for being here with us today. Yeah, you're welcome. Thank you for having me. No, thank you. Of course, we've already had a conversation already, but I would like to ask you to tell us a little bit more about your background, not just in the topic that we're gonna be talking about today, which is in domestic violence, but also just your general background, please. Yes, yeah, absolutely. So my love for counseling started off in my undergrad, actually, in neuroscience. And I wasn't having too good of a time and I reached out to a counselor and it was not a very good experience. So I think from that, really have this love and passion for fighting mental health stigma, for providing good counseling services and ensuring that other people don't have an experience like that. During that time, I just wanted to be surrounded by kindness and warmth. And so I started working at a crisis line here in Vancouver for sexual assault and it was lovely. It really opened my eyes to what's like really good quality support looks like. And from there, my career kind of took off. I started working with the police, with victim services. And then I did my masters in counseling psychology where I actually worked a bit in India as a couples counselor for arranged marriages that had extreme domestic abuse in them. So, and then fast forward coming back to Vancouver, I worked for the health authority in substance use and addictions. So there was a lot of domestic violence integrated in that as well. And that led me to here, just Skylark in private practice and seeing all sorts of clients and populations and helping people with different concerns and work with a team of amazing counselors. So, yeah. So what led you to India? So that's kind of like out of the blue. It's really cool that you were originally in Canada and then you moved your way to India and then you came back here. Like what was the reason behind that? Yeah, I think I wanted experience that was so different from growing up in the Okanagan, growing up here in BC. And just the culture I thought really spoke to me. So the people there are so lovely and warm and welcoming and there was an opportunity for supporting a team there. And I just kind of jumped on it. And yeah, the rest is history. So that's pretty wonderful. That's awesome. So we will start jumping into talking about domestic violence as well. So again, this is not an easy topic to talk about. So we want to make sure that we stay sensitive like toward people who may be like, you know, going through this right now. So we'll start with domestic violence in terms of different types. So in your professional experience, what are the different types of domestic violence other than just physical violence? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So there's physical, there's emotional, there's sexual, there's financial, there's verbal. So those and physical as well, like you mentioned. So those encompass all the types of domestic violence. So speaking of verbal as well. So you mentioned verbal. So that's the part that always confuses me here. So from what I understand is that there's a difference between healthy conflict versus verbal abuse. But we know that, you know, not everything has to be categorized into something like verbal abuse. So what is the line between, let's say, verbal abuse and healthy conflict? Yeah, that's a great question. Abuse is a destructive pattern of maltreatment. So if someone loses their temper once and says the wrong thing, like you say, we all make mistakes, that's conflict. It might not be ideal healthy conflict, but I think the concern is where it starts to disintegrate one's identity or someone's needs. So it really is more profound long-term and usually with domestic violence, it's not just one type. So it might be emotional and verbal and physical all at the same time or all at different times. So they really overlap in that way. Right, okay, so it's not just one thing, just because somebody said this once. It wouldn't be considered a verbal abuse necessarily, but if the pattern continues over and over, it could potentially be labeled as domestic violence or even verbal abuse. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Okay, thank you. We also wanna ask a little bit in terms of, so what are some common myths about domestic violence? And the reason why I ask this is because, again, in my mind, domestic violence is caused by a male figure toward a female figure. And I'd like to ask, is that always true? And if not, what are some different common myths that people may have about domestic violence? Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the main myths that I hear a lot is that, like you say, it's a certain type of population and that's not the case. It's everyone, it could be anybody at different times, different days, different months. And so I really think that's what makes it tough to define is because there is such a diversity of folks that are impacted by it. Some of the myths like you highlighted are that it's always men, again, not the case. Or that there's nothing that we can do about it. Or that people can't change, I hear that a lot. So there's often like, aegis beliefs as well that if people are older or younger or there's children involved, like all of that, it's really specific, I think, case by case. Right, okay, so we should never just assume that it should be just one person doing it to another where it shouldn't be a stereotype, a stereotype, basically. Exactly, yeah. Okay, so I'd like to ask a little bit more about you were saying something about change. So it's very easy, in my opinion, to demonize one person and label them as he's an abuser, he's an evil person or they're an evil person. So I'd like to ask a little bit more about that. Is it true that we can label someone as he's an abuser and there's no room for change or in your professional experience, do you think there may be room for improvement, especially if they have like shame and guilt about what they have gone through? Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. You know, I have had clients that are, you know, 60 plus a 90-year-old client actually and people that want in support with substance use, for example. So they perhaps were drinking a lot their whole entire life and then at certain points in time, they're just done and they want to change. And so I really do believe that at any time people can reach out and make huge, huge changes in their life, so yeah. How long does that usually take? Because I feel like it's not like a one day, like I'm all of a sudden a better person all of a sudden, but rather it doesn't sound like an easy process. How does it like usually work? Yeah, yeah. I think sometimes it could be stemming from an event. So if, you know, the police are involved, somebody might really kind of have their eyes opened and change overnight in that way, but I would say the majority of time it is a process. We all make mistakes and especially if we have a certain pattern in our mind or difficulty with emotional regulation, it takes a lot of work and a lot of time to learn new coping skills and strategies. So again, it depends per person, but I think honestly, if there's a will, there's a way. Yeah, yeah. Well, speaking of different coping methods, is it always recommended that people who want to improve themselves always seek the help of a mental health care professional or is it something that they can be doing without the help of a mental health care professional? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think it depends on the person honestly. There are people that I think the benefit of the internet these days, you know, you can find so much on social media and just really kind of deep diving into some of the resources available. I think where counseling comes into play is it makes that process more efficient. Ah, of course, yes. So people might be able to get from A to B by themselves, but with a mental health professional that kind of knows the way. It just makes it so much easier and often less isolating or lonely. And it's always nice just to have kind of this neutral opinion where, you know, it's like, okay, this does make sense or I should be doing this or yeah, I do need to take accountability for that. So I think it really helps. Well, I'd like to ask a little bit about that. So in terms of resources, what do you think is a great free resource that people can use? And the reason why I ask is this, if I have like, let's say a cough and I go online, already like the website diagnosis me, you have Ebola or like something like that, right? So that's the last thing that I would want. So do you have any like free resources, like no of any free resources that people can use to seek help whenever they want to in this case? Absolutely. I think it depends on location. So here in Vancouver, like I mentioned, there's women against violence against women. They have an amazing crisis line. Often just Googling support resources for domestic violence in your community. UBC, a lot of the universities, UBC, SFU, Western Uni, they have webinars on domestic violence that are free. So if you're curious of a little bit deeper or more about it or if it applies to you or your friend, you can do research that way as well. Yeah, as well, there's also the Ending Violence Association of Canada and their website is beautiful with all sorts of resources just kind of across Canada. So yeah. Awesome. So I'd like to ask about just the current system that is set up for people with domestic violence. So this is a little bit more of kind of like your opinion on, so with the current system that they have set up in this country, well, not just in this country, but I'd like to ask if you could change something about the way the current system runs and helping people like this, like what would you change personally? Oh, that's a great question. I would say, what would I change? More accessibility. So again, as I was mentioning on the internet, there's so many resources, but I love in person, where you can just walk into a certain organization. And I think just more people knowing about it. So more discussions like this where we talk about it and we fight shame and stigma surrounding domestic violence and providing more facts and discussion around like what to do, who to talk to, that kind of thing. So that's what we're changing. Thank you. I think you mentioned a very important point about accessibility. And fortunately in the World Web that we live today, we always feel like accessibility is always lacking, right? And so it's something that hopefully we can improve our system upon. I think it's definitely something that we can definitely improve upon. So I'd like to veer the question a little bit toward a little bit of scenario. So I'd like to try to present several different scenarios that I can think of in terms of kind of like who might be facing or who might be witnessing domestic violence. So the first scenario that I'd like to present is let's say I'm a high school student or a grade school student. And let's say I can see that my, or I'm suspecting that my friend or classmate is being physically abused. Now they didn't explicitly say it, but I can see let's say bruises or let's say I can see physical evidence that leads me to believe that there may be domestic violence. But I'm afraid to approach because I don't want to assume anything but I only make sure that I help this person. What can I do as a student as a friend or a classmate? Yeah, absolutely. I think reaching out to the school guidance counselor, they have a lot of resources, teachers again with their training are amazing in terms of linking people and knowing like the steps of what to do if there is concerns like that, talking to parents, caregivers, any sort of adult figure I think that can support and direct towards resources. I think as well, again, the internet is an amazing resource. So Googling how to help a friend, what to say, what not to say, those sorts of things. But I think the primary piece is it takes a village. So inviting other people in, again, two brains are better than one. So five brains are better than two. So I think the more people, the better. So is it better, even if I'm just suspecting it, is it better to speak up about it or is it better to just wait? Like which one would you think is more like wise to do? Is it better to speak up and like right away do something about it or is it better to wait to make sure that something is happening? I don't see what you mean. Yeah, I think it's better to speak up to a person that you trust. So someone that is not going to tell the whole school or really harm the person that you're concerned about because we never know, right? Like you say, if there's bruises, it could be from soccer practice or something else. But if you are seeing multiple, multiple variables and it's not adding up or you're worried about your friend, absolutely. I think kind of pulling in an adult figure to have another set of eyes to look at the situation is really helpful. And I think the word trust as you were mentioning is very important because I've seen many people, they would tell somebody else, but then the person that they told that information to doesn't know exactly how to handle it basically. So that's caused all sorts of problems. As a former teacher myself, as I've seen things like that happen. So thank you so much for mentioning the trust piece. So I'd like to move on to the second scenario, which is probably in the workplace. Let's say I'm an adult in the workplace and I'm seeing that role, the coworker or friend that I have, it's clear to me that there are signs of domestic violence, let's say. And I tell them that this is domestic violence, they need to do something about it. But the friend keeps saying, it's okay. And can you say, oh, it's okay. It's probably just my fault or something like that, which happens a lot more often than people may realize. So in cases like this, how can we help someone who may be saying, well, I'm not going through domestic violence, like it's okay, but it's clear that there are certain signs of it. I see. I think really supporting this person with a non-judgmental framework, I think a lot of us were very protective by nature, as human creatures. And we want to fix and we want to save and we want them to break up with this person or really kind of change their situation. And I think when we start pushing people in a certain direction, that's when they don't like to be pushed and they get defensive or they start kind of muting their conversations or changing their story. So I think if we can just be curious about a person's circumstance and ask them, hey, how can I help you? Or like what happens last night, I'm here to listen. I'm here to support you in any way that I can, just really being empathic and compassionate as opposed to kind of labeling it for them, like saying something like, that's really horrible. You need to do this. You need to do that. I think when we start getting too prescriptive or directive with folks that aren't ready to hear that yet, it might guide them in the wrong direction. Right, okay. So as difficult as it may be, it takes a lot of patience, it sounds like. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I think it's important to highlight that yeah, that's not normal. And normal is such a loaded word. But I think with domestic violence, within households, it is very normalized and people get used to it. And it doesn't seem like that big of a deal. But I think when a friend says, I'm concerned about you, you seem, and just labeling observations, like you seem really quiet these days or I haven't seen you at social gatherings very much or you seem really upset every day at work, those sorts of things, I think can be really helpful to draw awareness to the person of like, what's really going on here? Yeah, absolutely. Because it always hurts to see when a family member or a friend going through something like that and you know something's wrong, you know something is up and you wanna do something about it. But I feel like as you were mentioning, if we're so adamant about helping them, then sometimes it pushes people away and it makes them even more sheltered in that place. So I think what you mentioned is actually very, very important, which is very difficult for us to do, right? Because we want to do something about it right away. We want them to be okay. But thank you so much for mentioning that and coming from a very compassionate place, if you will. Yeah, absolutely. And I think normalizing resources too, like counseling, like if you've had a personal counseling experience, describing that, being able to name resources in the community, like, oh, I heard this organization is really great or this crisis line is really great or even testing out resources for people. So calling the crisis line as a friend and just inquiring and saying, like, oh, yeah, I called them a few weeks back and they're really warm and friendly. Pieces like that just remove the fear and barriers for people when they're maybe thinking about reaching out to a resource but not sure what to expect. Right, so I wanna talk to you a little bit about, kind of like reaching out for resources. You were mentioning about reaching out for counseling. I believe that there are still stigmas against counseling, which, again, it's kind of like, if I break my arm, people say go to the hospital. But if I'm mentally ill, people don't say, well, let's go to the hospital. People say, you're fine. So what kind of stigmas are there when it comes to counseling, including this is generally as well as for domestic violence and what are some stigmas as well as, like, how can you speak a little more about, like, kind of like breaking out of those stigmas a little bit, kind of like, what are the stigmas and how can we make sure that this stigma is not true for people who are considering it, basically. Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, when it comes to stigma around mental health, you're right, it is absolutely there. And, you know, it's with the internet and particularly with COVID, actually, it's becoming more and more normalized to talk about. But I think, you know, we do have to choose our audiences. So for example, if we're in a workplace where it's not safe to disclose, we have anxiety, depression, PTSD, whatever it is. And then there's other workplaces where it is really safe. So it's really kind of assessing for yourself how you feel. And it's okay to put a foot in the door technique, you know, like asking someone like, yeah, have you ever been to counseling before, you know, and see what they say. And if they're like, oh, never that, I would never do that, it sounds horrible. Like, then it's okay. So you know your audience a little bit more there. Whereas if somebody's like, yeah, I really heard great things about counseling, you know, again, that person is probably gonna be warm and approachable with that dialogue. So, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I really hope that a lot of people heard that because it's important for us to know that it's not a bad thing, that counseling is actually very, very open and approachable way. And hopefully the stigma is, I guess, broken, like through the talks that we have, so that people can like approach counseling with, I guess, an open mind. Hopefully that's what we want. Yeah, absolutely. And that it's not a place where you have to go and talk about something specific. It really is client-led. So if you wanna talk about XYZ, absolutely. And if you don't want to, absolutely. I think that's also a part of the stigma of counseling is that, you know, it's gonna be awkward. Or I have a lot of clients say like, oh, I don't know what I wanna talk about. Or the alternative, like I have too many problems, I don't even know where to start. And I think that's our job as counselors, is to guide people through that. The awkwardness is on us. You know, saying the right thing is on us. And using the different techniques and styles, like people, you know, they don't have to worry about that. I think finding a licensed counselor is really important because they check certain boxes with education and experience and ethics. So reaching out and doing your research with mental health and with counseling, I think it's important as well. Thank you so much for that insight. I'd like to talk a little bit about, so this, I think this topic is a little more sensitive than the topic that we've been talking about, which is basically talking about people who are perpetrators of domestic violence. So again, as I was saying earlier, it's very easy to just label people and say these people are evil, these people cannot be changed. But of course, we wanna come from a place of compassion. And so I'd like to ask, how often are abusers themselves abused? That's a great question. The statistics vary on that one, but from my personal clinical experience, usually most of the time. Hurt people hurt people. So those patterns come from somewhere, whether it's from parents way back when or neighbors or I think societally too, there's a lot of violence that's accepted or normalized. So these patterns, these neuro pathways are built on years and years and years. It's not something that kind of automatically happens overnight. So I think for folks that are struggling with abusing themselves or not being in alignment with their values, that again, to reach out to a counselor, honestly to talk about what can I do to manage my anger? What can I do to manage my substance use so I don't become the person that I don't wanna be? So yeah. So how common is substance abuse in domestic violence? This is always that people who are abusers, do they always have substance abuse issues or is it pretty common or is it not so common? Yeah, it's common, but not always. Again, I think it looks very different. Like financial abuse looks very, very different than verbal abuse, right? So it really kind of is contingent on the specific type or the family culture too as well. Now I'd like to change the conversation a little bit toward people who are abused in domestic violence situations. So how often is it that people who are being abused themselves don't realize that they actually are being abused and what can we do to help them realize it? So I think we spoke about it earlier a little bit but how often does it happen that they don't even realize that they're being actually going through this? Yeah, yeah. I think pretty often in terms of stages of change that there is a period of time and it does vary person to person where we struggle with denial, we struggle with again normalizing behaviors that shouldn't be normalized and it can be very overwhelming and that's a protective instinct within our brains. So like, okay, everything's fine, it's all good, it was just once or it's just a rough six months or it's just a rough year or they're struggling with alcohol and it's not really them. You know, there's all the reasons in the world why somebody can still have a heart of gold but still act in ways that are destructive to other people. So now I'd like to shift the conversation towards you as well. So where can we find you? Do you have like, do you have in terms of social media and website? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's SkylarClinic.ca. You can email us, connect at SkylarClinic.ca. We have a whole team of people that are dedicated to counselor match consultations. So matching people that call in with the right counselor. I know a lot of people struggle with myself included when I first started counseling of how do I know what's a good counselor, the right counselor for me. And I think, you know, having a counselor or a mental health professional support you in what to look for. Whether you want a straightforward counselor or a gentle counselor or a counselor that uses humor a lot of the time or a male therapist, non-binary therapist, like there's so many choices. And so having someone support you in those questions and directing you where to go I think is really helpful. So yeah, absolutely. Website, email, phone call to just Google SkylarCounseling in Vancouver and we'll pop up. Great. And as for the last question from me would be, do you have a message that you would like for us to hear about domestic violence? If you have a message that you would like to share with us, please. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, just reaching out for support. Again, you know, there's so many people I think that struggle with domestic violence and abuse and they don't know where to go or they think they're the only ones, they think they're alone and there's a sense of hopelessness and fear. And I think, again, reaching out for support with this is just so helpful and eye-opening in terms of like, okay, there's a whole another world out there or, you know, my relationship can shift or I can change or there's stuff that we can actually do to make our quality of life better and be happier and feel safe in our homes. All right, so I'd like to switch the conversation over toward the audience. So our subscriber sent us a few questions that I believe are really good for our conversation today. So I'd like to start by asking. So at NoisyJaden00 asks, how does domestic violence affect the physical and mental capabilities of a person? That's a part one of the question. That's a great question. I think it dissolves our sense of worth over time. So, for example, a lot of us grew up with cartoons where there was a little devil and a little angel on our shoulder and the angel's like, oh, you're so great. You're so awesome. And the devil's like, oh, you're not very good. You're stupid. You know, you're not gonna amount to anything. And the way I see it as a metaphor is that like, if there's somebody telling us, you know, all the time or even multiple times a day over weeks, months, years, we start to believe it. You know, we're like, oh, I guess I don't deserve this or I'd rather I do deserve this or, you know, I'm not a very good partner or, you know, I don't have the capabilities to leave this relationship or this situation. So I think it really builds over time in compounds. And it kind of becomes harder and harder to recognize as us being sucked down, you know, in a like really stressful environment where we feel scared and alone and not sure what to do. I'd like to ask a little more about the mental side that you were saying earlier. So obviously with years of somebody, maybe months or even years of somebody telling you a certain thing and certainly that internalizes those beliefs, right? So if somebody is going through that, how do we help them break out of that internalized state? Yeah, absolutely. I think really verbalizing how much you care about them or very verbal creatures. And even if the intention is there and it seems like totally obvious that we're their number one fan, I think explicitly saying the words, like, I love you, you're awesome, you're great. You know, I really like this particular thing. When I do couples counseling, a lot I talk about compliments and how to give a compliment. And really the main thing is like the more specific, the better. So for example, if I call someone nice, it's very easy for me to challenge that in my head of like, oh, but I was mean yesterday and, you know, I did this thing six months ago or I'm not that good of a person and they just don't know me. Whereas if it's specific of like, yeah, it was really nice that you showed up for my birthday party last week or that you got me groceries or that you listened to me talk about my relationship last week on the phone. It's pretty, it's more difficult to argue internally with evidence that's like, well, I guess I did actually call them or I did truly attend the birthday party. So it's a little bit more concrete. Right, cause it's hard to challenge a comment like I went to your birthday party. So thank you so much for that. So it's really hard to challenge that. Thank you for that insight. And second part of the question would be, how does the feeling of sadness and manipulation go away? Or like, does it go away? Or how do we cope with it? Absolutely. You know, I think emotions are tough. They're typically on a spectrum. So, you know, with mild sadness, for example, distraction might work, right? If I'm feeling sad, I'm gonna watch Netflix or I'm gonna go for a walk or stay busy, kind of really dive into work. But I think when it starts to build and it becomes overwhelming and where we're crying every day or, you know, we're not functioning at work or, you know, we are buying ketchup in the grocery store and that's totally overwhelming. I think kind of looping in mental health support, whether it's your doctor or counselor, there's medications available. I think talking about it too is really important. So in our brain, if we are in distress a lot of the time, so in fight, fight, freeze and panic mode or we're really, really upset, it's hard to think clearly. So talking about it brings it from the middle of our brain and fight, fight, freeze to our prefrontal cortex behind our forehead where we can have executive decision-making or logic or weighing the pros and cons of, yeah, I don't wanna be in this situation anymore or I deserve better than this. So I think the more we talk about it with loved ones or people that are safe, the better. So it's almost like calling out those internal thoughts as well as things that we go through instead of just letting it brew? Yeah, exactly. Or even journaling, like writing it down again shifts it in areas of our brain. So it's just a different type of processing or even just talking to yourself or to your plant or to your animal. I think really just kind of verbalizing and finding the language is really important and we can almost role play and rehearse with ourselves of sharing our story just with our bubble and then expanding that to the people that we feel safest with and then kind of expanding from there. Okay, all right, thank you so much for that insight and I believe this is a Zaddy Luthian asks, what early warning signs can you look for when you first meet someone to help you not fall for an abuser to begin with? Yeah, that's a great question. I think probably number one is emotional difficulty with emotional regulation. So if somebody loses their temper really quickly and it's directed towards someone or something, so towards an animal, if there's like kind of acts of violence like throwing a computer or throwing their phone or like severe substance use, often domestic violence is about a lack of control, a lack of self-control. So really looking for people's healthy coping. Do they have a routine that keeps them balanced? Are they happy? Do they journal? Do they talk to a mental health professional? And I think really it's more so about looking for green flags as opposed to red ones. So what does this person do to support their own mental health? So when stuff goes sideways, they have the coping tools and mechanisms to deal with it accordingly. Well, so speaking of that, I feel like in the beginning of relationships, as people say, this is when we see the best of each other, right? And it's not just because we're masking it better, but also I believe that our brains tell us how awesome this person is in the beginning and so we have tunnel vision. So usually how long do you think it takes for us to kind of like observe to make sure that this person does indeed have great coping mechanisms as you were mentioning? Like how long does that usually take in your opinion? Yeah, that's a really great question. I think honestly it's dependent on life context. So for example, I might be healthily coping with my work, with my relationship, but maybe I lose my job and maybe I start to drink more. Or maybe I get into a new relationship and this person is so infuriating and I just don't wanna deal with them anymore. So I think those sorts of variables outside of ourselves also impact the way we handle stuff as well. So as humans, always a work in progress. And I think establishing our own lines and boundaries, whether it's two weeks from now, 10 years, 20 years from now, of just knowing what is acceptable to me in a relationship, what is acceptable to me in a house, on a domestic team, so to speak, and going from there. Yeah, I think that's always a very, very difficult part honestly, because when you first start a relationship, you only want the best for this person and it's very easy to be in denial, but I think it'll be great that, based on what you were saying, that people are able to make a better decision for themselves, hopefully in the long run as well. And so we're gonna move on to another question by, let's see, Athena Baker, 1829 asks, how do you appropriately, appropriately, let me try that again, how do you appropriately talk to kids about domestic violence, either for preventative purposes or as a bystander, feel that something is not right about this child's situation? Absolutely. I think it's, depending on the age, so I think we would talk to a six-year-old differently than a 15-year-old, for example. So really from a young, young age, as young as possible talking about consent, you know, and respectful behavior and what does respectful behavior look like? I think in certain families, respect looks like obedience, respect looks like not swearing, respect looks like talking to each other and talking about emotions being okay. But again, it does vary per household, right, and per family. So using words that the child at whatever age they're at would use. So a 15-year-old will have a lot broader verbal capacity than a six-year-old. And again, Google is amazing for this of, you know, what are some typical phrases that I could say to explain to an eight-year-old or a nine-year-old? And again, mental health professionals and physicians as well, actually, will be able to describe a little bit more of the developmental stages that kids are at. So, you know, whether they have abstract thinking, so kind of complexities outside of themselves, or whether, you know, a younger kid is just so self-focused and they haven't really fully developed a sense of compassion yet. So it might be more helpful to talk about domestic violence just pertaining to themselves as opposed to somebody else. Does that make sense? Yeah, so I wanted to ask a little more about, so let's say you witness domestic violence and you want to help the child out. And so let's say this child is involved in domestic violence, what's a good way to, because you want to make sure that you help this person but not also get, I don't know, this is kind of like, it's a very sensitive topic, right? For someone that young, how do you start, how do you even start that conversation? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think through the parents or caregivers. As an adult here in Canada, if you suspect any sort of child abuse or neglect, we all have the duty to report it to the ministry, so Ministry of Child and Family Development. So again, their 24-hour line is amazing. I've called that number myself and they're so supportive and they have the list of questions and evaluations and assessments and they're experts in that. So again, if it's like, oh, I'm not really sure, like when in doubt, just call and you can ask questions for yourself and get more information. There's again, like so many variables and it's so tough and I think for most children, it's just, it's so complicated and it's so hard to understand that really the onus falls on the adults surrounding these kids, right? So whether it's family, community, teachers, again, any sort of authority figure, looping in more support and experts in domestic violence. So there can be all hands on deck, so to speak. And I like to ask a little more in terms of educational context. And let's say I am running a class on domestic violence. And again, again, this is not suspecting somebody who has domestic violence, but rather for educational purposes, I'm running the class. And let's say we need to talk about domestic violence in the classroom. Like how would you go about or what would you advise that teachers consider when we are talking about domestic violence to little kids? Yeah, absolutely. I think talking about a safety plan, that's one term that counselors use a lot of like, okay, what to do if. So if a child reports, you know, that mom and dad or parents are arguing about certain topic and they're yelling, what is that little kid gonna do? Or who can they call or where can they go? Or if there's a kind of sibling conflict, you know, how, what do you say to mom and dad? Or what do you say to, you know, the parents or the authority figures of the households? So I think again, practicing and role-playing with them. So verbally saying it or who can you tell? Like, oh, you can tell your teacher or you can go to counseling about it in the school. Just really linking them to resources, I think is important as well. Yeah, excellent. So then we'll go to question number five. So Kevin Fluence asks, what are the best ways to help someone who is willingly refusing to leave an abusive domestic partnership, which we already touched upon, but I would still like to ask anyway. Yeah, absolutely. I think again, coming at it from an empathic standpoint. So often we're taught that empathy is treat others how we want to be treated, but true empathy is treat others how they want to be treated. So if they are wanting space and they don't want to talk about it, then they don't want to talk about it. If they're experiencing domestic violence, chances are their boundaries are non-existent or very few and far between in the household. So if they're struggling with feeling heard and seen, it's our job to provide a safe space. It's not our job as friends and support to fix them or direct them in a certain direction. It literally is just like, hey, I'm here to talk if you want. You know, I see you, I hear you. You're awesome no matter what. And what can we do about this? And if they're not at that place yet, then it's just an open conversation. So again, I think for a lot of people, like it's challenging to know like where the line is, you know, like what's acceptable, what's unacceptable. And I think for a lot of folks, the line shifts. So as support and as help, we can also help identify those lines of, okay, so last week, you know, or six months ago you said that you didn't want to tolerate swearing in your relationship and now I'm hearing that like there's a lot of verbalized swearing or kind of name calling. And I'm just curious like, how are you feeling with that? Or what can I do to help support you with that? Okay, so we'll continue with question number six. AC Knight asks, how do you set firm boundaries with others in domestic violence? That's another really great question. I think it's a phased approach. So for example, if I, if someone does something that I'm not comfortable with and I say pretty please, can you please stop? And they listen, great, beautiful. If someone, if I set a boundary with someone and say, hey, like would you mind speaking to me in this way or lowering your voice? And they don't listen. You know, we're kind of put in between a rock and a hard place of, do I increase my voice? To kind of overpower theirs? Or do I just take a step back? And I think the majority of the time, if somebody is not listening to your boundaries, chances are they're in fight, flight, freeze. They're not thinking clearly. And just to say, okay, you know, I'm just gonna leave the room or I'm just gonna leave the house. I'm just gonna go for a drive and remove yourself. So we can use our words to the best of our capability, you know, being respectful, polite language with boundaries setting. And at the same time, if somebody doesn't listen, they don't listen. And we can verbalize our boundary but can't force them to not do X, Y, Z. So really it's about what can I do in my bubble or what's my responsibility in terms of keeping myself emotionally and physically safe? And when you do set those boundaries, and what can you do if the people that we're working with don't respect such boundaries? What are some next steps that people can take? Yeah, yeah. I think, again, creating a safety plan. Like, okay, if this person's not listening to what I'm saying, I'm gonna go over to this friend's house. Or I'm going to let them do their thing, however they cope. And I'm gonna re-engage in this conversation tomorrow when things are more calm. And I think, again, really taking a moment to think and pause with whatever behavior is happening on your end of things. Like, will this lead me in the direction that I want this relationship to go? So for a lot of people, if somebody's yelling and swearing at you, for example, to yell and swear back, it kind of trigger ping pong, like we kind of escalate each other. So I think a lot of the time, if someone's having a hard time or being abusive or is intoxicated or not thinking clearly for whatever reason, it's really just kind of taking a step back and protecting ourselves in that way. So the second question that the same person asked was, do perpetrators really love their partners slash victims or is it just not there? It's a very interesting question. I love that. That's something I think about a lot. And a lot of clients ask me is what is the definition of love? And I think when we just define it as an emotion, caring for someone, absolutely. People can behave poorly or not in alignment with their values and still care and want the best for the person. So there's a misalignment with their behaviors. Who they want to be, essentially. However, if we shift the definition of love within a healthy framework, for example, that if somebody has healthy love towards someone, they're gonna treat them with respect. They're not gonna hurt them, they're gonna want the best for them. And I think that's the version of love that I tend to encourage people to go towards. A lot of us grew up in households where love was verbalizing I love you and then being disrespectful towards each other. So I think as we form our own relationships, it's really on us to define what that relationship looks like and what's appropriate to us or what's within our comfort and our happiness, I think. Great, so question number seven, a days Amanda asks, how does domestic violence affect children? Absolutely, so much, so, so much. I think children are so vulnerable and their brains are forming and they're figuring out what's right and wrong and what's acceptable and what's unacceptable. So when we swear or yell in front of our kids or throw things, that teaches them that that's okay to do. Even if we don't explicitly verbalize it, it becomes normalized. So you might notice that a little one is starting to behave in similar ways to parents or caregivers. So I think, again, it's about healthy coping strategies. When we get angry, verbalize it and take a step back. Take a moment of pause, do what we need to do in order to kind of re-ground ourselves and if we can exhibit that behavior to the children around us and teach them how to take a moment and just verbalize their feelings and breathe, then they will start to form healthy behaviors as well. The same person wanted to ask, will they mean our children? Will children also cultivate the same kind of like domestic violence and instilled within them, basically cultivate the same thing? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think we're creatures that learn through role modeling. So if one behavior is deemed acceptable in a household, then I think we all kind of learn from each other of like, okay, so that's what I do or what I say to get to where I wanna go. So if pretty please doesn't work, if I scream and yell and throw things and then I get what I want, then I'm gonna do that again. And we often accidentally positively reinforce children when they do have a temper tantrum, we're like, okay, here, fine, just take the iPad and go. And that teaches them unconsciously that, okay, so if they yell and scream, then they get the iPad. So they're more likely to do that again, as opposed to saying, okay, this is not a good time for the iPad right now, just take a breath, sit down and let's talk about it. Let's talk about how you're feeling. So if adults aren't conducting themselves in that way, then chances are kids are, they seem to hear everything in a house, you know, like kids are absorbing that information as well. Great, so is domestic violence ever the fault of the victim? I love that question. Short answer, no. Fault I find is divided into two different categories. One is accountability and one is responsibility. So absolutely, we all have the responsibility to look after ourselves, to protect ourselves, to define what emotional safety means to us. But if somebody swears at me or hits me, that is not on me. That's there in charge of their own behavior and I am in charge of my behavior. So I can take a step back, again, I can reach out to different resources. But at the end of the day, if someone's behaving poorly towards me, regardless of what I do, it's not my fault. Great, and how does one find healing from domestic abuse? And with that, I'd like to also ask about, you were speaking about children. How does, how do children who went through domestic violence heal from domestic abuse as well? Yeah, yeah. I think a big part of anyone's experience is defining their story. So it's finding the words of like, okay, what happened? What did they see? What did they hear going through all the senses? When did it happen? And then how does it make them feel? Defining all the emotions and what can you do about it? And I think again, it varies with the ages of kids and the ages of adults as well, or the past experience that adults have had. But I think really talking about it and brainstorming with someone of different ideas of journaling or music, writing music often really helps people heal or listening to music or volunteering. Like volunteering at an organization to really like build our confidence, our self-worth, our sense of community. Domestic violence can be really, really isolating where we feel really alone and really scared. So getting our needs met in different ways is important as well. Yeah, thank you for mentioning that. I think that's something that, a lot of people may go through, but don't know how to exactly navigate through because obviously when you go through something traumatic for a long time, it's so hard to navigate your emotions or navigate your life in general. So I think it's important that we find different ways to channel that, if you will, in terms of healing. And the last part that I wanted to ask about was about forgiveness. As someone who's also been through, not domestic violence necessarily, but someone who's been through abuse in general, I found it personally very difficult to find acceptance slash forgiveness. So in addition to the question that this person was asking, is forgiveness something that could be achieved or is something that should be encouraged or is acceptance okay? Like is that just okay with just acceptance? Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. I think with forgiveness, it's for ourselves. So if I carry that anger around for years and years and years, it hurts me. I often describe to people that we all have emotional backpacks. And every negative event is a rock in the backpack or challenging event. So big traumas are perhaps bigger boulders or things that kind of irritate us day to day, like with our job being frustrating, we just put these rocks in the backpack. And it's weight, it's emotional weight, and it makes us harder to navigate other experiences in our life. So really taking the rocks out of the backpack, taking a look at them and disintegrating them, throwing them away, whatever we wanna do. And if that's forgiveness, absolutely. I think another piece that people question is, is forgiveness the same as signing off on someone's behavior? Does it mean that it's acceptable? Absolutely not. There's a way to forgive and still keep distance, to keep your boundaries. Again, whether you want a relationship or not with this person, there's different levels of closeness with the relationship. So it could be a phone call once every six months. It could be seeing someone once every five years. And if someone is in your life regularly that you need more space from, I think finding ways to get that space if that's needed. I really hope a lot of people heard that because people who've been through abuse probably find it very difficult to forgive somebody. And as you said, I think it's very important that you mention that it's for ourselves, it's for our own recovery. And I really hope that by listening to you, people will, I guess, find ways to learn how to accept what they've been through, but also learn how to forgive for themselves so that they can find recovery. Absolutely, absolutely. And I think too, forgiveness is not a particular moment in time. It definitely is a journey. And maybe this year I completely forgive person X, but next year something comes up that's triggering for me or I start reliving certain experiences or have new information. Nope, I don't forgive them anymore. So it really ebbs and flows and healing is not linear. So it's really kind of up and down and again, forgiveness I think is subjective and it's, yeah, it can be defined differently in a good way. Thank you so much for your time today, Daniel. You are our favorite guest so far. Now let's clarify, you're the only guest we've had so far, but you have been amazing and I'm sure that you're going to set an amazing standard for all the guests that are coming from this forth. So thank you so much for being here with us today. Thank you so much. Thank you.