 What's up everybody and welcome back to for the minions episode 21 of for the minions the weekly show where we talk about all things Paragon and the spiritual successors to Paragon this week We have our news and updates as always the full results tech time with rubble We're gonna be talking about hitscan versus projectile weapons. No, we'll talk about tutorials in Paragon I am your host the one and only man goose Mandy is unable to join us today because she has horrible horrible diarrhea. However, we do have Mr.. We'd do the mace one of my new favorite twitch streamers a man who never gave up with Paragon You could always catch him even play an overthrow back in the day and uh, yeah, I'm really happy to have one here How you doing would do I'm doing great. I'm doing great. How about you? Awesome? Sweet sweet. Yeah, man. I'm actually I'm happy that you brought me in here I know that we've talked about it a few times here and there, but I appreciate you having me Yeah, no worries. Who's your who's your favorite Paragon hero? Narbash Yeah, I mean honestly bro like I don't know how many people played back in the legacy days with Narbash, but Seeing that gargantuan creature just hustling that fat boy running with the drumsticks Once you see that yeah, you cannot see it. It was amazing for sure And they got a purple Narbash, so once they saw that I'm like, yo when do purple done? That's one brain. That's it. Yes Windu actually played in the predecessor pre-alpha with us and uh, he outplayed the dog shit out of me and I kind of thought I'd heard about it But I definitely got me more interested in windows pretty awesome. Yeah, I was I thought I was one step ahead of him He was two steps ahead of me and escaped on a thing now Well a little a little easier to do with the delay that we had but So let's head right into the news and updates We're gonna start off with made a buff and made a buff and they're frequently asked questions They they have the system requirements. This is something that's very important to a lot of people who wish to buy a PC In order to play these games and they're they're saying you need to have like a GTX 660 for an NVIDIA or AMD 78 7d I don't know much about AMD processors With two gigabytes of VRAM and you'd have an i5 processor eight gigabytes of RAM I don't think you really need but they have it listed there and then you have to have windows 7 8 10 64 bit So that's about it that you need. Um, I'm not really a tech guy I just know that I my 1080 shit the bed on me and I've been using a 1060 and it's been working fine for me I still can't believe that happened But just so you know when you're looking at like those graphics cards the i5 and even the RAM That type of gear it's basically giving you what's on the minimum side to run your unreal engine So like a 660 you if you have a five to seven-year-old computer You should still be able to run the game is what they're saying. Yeah So you shouldn't have to it shouldn't cost you an arm and a leg to get a computer That's capable of running Paragon Or running core. I should say Then I probably get it using one on like Craigslist and so be able to run it to be honest Yeah, right exactly where you might get murdered. I hear you get murdered a lot on Craigslist Bro, don't even get me started on that. Oh, no Mm-hmm. I'm please I'm I watch too much criminal minds. That's like the sights a hell out of me. I can't bro I can't So the next question was will the closed alpha have controller support they're saying the controller sport is an integral Controller support is an integrated feature of Unreal Engine 4 at least for some controllers We aren't blocking the ability for integration of controller functionality from third-party software for controller sport at this time We're interested to see what the community does with the game and as always alpha is for gathering data Basically, what they're saying is they're not going to offer controller sport, but they're not going to endure it either If you want to get a third-party Mapping software to use a controller to play the game You're more than able to but they're not going to really support it and I mean I think Unreal Engine Engine mainly supports Xbox controllers, but You know if you can get you can get some third-party software wind over that one time on that the third-party softwares You can use to play these games with a controller. So it's a It's not going to be You know plug-and-play you're gonna have to do a little work on your own if you want to use a controller or play made above and core Should be able to work though a lot of the PC games nowadays will let you remade very easily and with even with the software yeah, and This is an interesting will the differentiation between energy and physical damage be realized the difference will be realized They are they don't give them don't give a lot of hard solid answers to a lot of questions But this is seems like a pretty solid answer. I Was going to go over this last time But Mandy and quality Mike had never really played on legacy where they had energy and physical damage When do you played on legacy? Can you fill the people in or what the physical and energy damage was? Yeah, I mean essentially it would just pretty much break it down to the So two categories asked to typically energy damage would be more associated with abilities and such burst abilities specifically and then asked for the physical damage you'd have heroes like chimera sparrow, but you know, it was one of those things that They implemented very carefully because you had characters like grim for example Grim would be energy damage because he shot a laser beam out of his cannon Whereas opposed to sparrow would have physical because there wasn't a physical arrow Coming out of it, but it also added a whole never a whole nother level of How do I say this complexity whenever it came down to a building because a lot of these heroes had both Physically physical and energy components within their kit. So you actually had to very carefully Choose how you were building your character, which honestly wasn't bad idea Yeah, and it also kind of affected your your picks as well Like if you picked a team that was all physical damage The enemy team all they had to do was build physical armor and then they would just roll over you Like you couldn't do anything to them. So you had to have a good mix of physical and energy damage on your team That's that's one reason Richter was a popular pick. He was the only energy damage. So It was yeah, you definitely had to have that That balance between everybody in order to win the game. So I think it's I think it's cool that they're bringing it back I Don't know it didn't really work out for Paragon in the end and they ended up taking it out even before I Didn't know they took it out just after they dropped monolith. It was a little bit in monolith, but not very much Yeah, for like a week just prior to be 42 But honestly, I I don't really understand why they weren't able to make it work too much Because if you look at other movies like you can look at Smite League of Legends, you know pick your poison a lot of them actually implement, you know Basic attack versus ability or a damage for example, right, which is a very similar concept. So to speak You know in Paragon they implemented it a little bit differently You know some basic attacks were ability damage so to speak but um That's that's pretty much what it comes down to just basic attack and ability and then How to implement it where I think that they might have just kind of got lost a little bit Is that they tried to reinvent the wheel a little bit too much because like I mentioned earlier some basic attacks were energy but then he had Basic damage abilities and vice versa on a lot of characters and then you know Balancing that because they already had a huge issue of balancing, you know you've been over that like 20 billion times in your channel and Whenever they added that aspect into everything it was just adding another domino to the huge mix that they still hadn't solved Yeah, to be honest. Yeah, there were a I think that's probably the best way to put it It was just more weight on the camel's back and they were they needed to they needed to start moving some stuff So they switch to the oh I'm sorry. I was gonna say and then when they switched to the whole just over all power damage But they left all the previous numbers prior before B42 and you had heroes that were Incredibly broken broken because they were still naturally designed to the old system is a A lot of questionable decisions, but that's why we hope that the remakes are gonna slowly Take track and do their own thing and honestly the way I like talking to some of these people like Apollos and everything that you've talked to They got a straight head on their shoulders They they got some good directive going on as her smoky Apollos and all of them So I'm pretty confident that they're gonna work. Yeah Yeah, they if anybody can pull it off, it'll be them. I hope they do because I miss the old energy versus physical damage You liked it. Yeah, I did like it. I did like it. What I like see the main thing I liked was like I was talking about it made it forced you to pick different heroes in the draft So people couldn't just always play the same thing unless they wanted to lose Yeah, I mean a lot of people still did anyway. Oh, yeah See, I wish that I could have been better back then because I was a trash player when I first started in a hundred percent Honestly For the you know, just saying a little about me since I didn't introduce myself Sorry, um, I a little bit about my experience is I was on the Paragon competitive league I was I'm predominantly a streamer I was in stream teams back then with people like mr. New that a lot of people recognize now I'm on a stream team, you know with mr. Sneaky griever and them, you know, super close homies, but Me like a lot of people whenever this first started back in the day on PlayStation I didn't know what a mobile was and the whole physical versus energy That I was like Bro, I don't even know what you're talking to me about. Can I just go shoot that person, please? It's like no, bro. You're gonna die. What the hell am I supposed to do hit the minion, bro? This is boring as hell It's just I don't want to play the stupid game. I like my friend bought me the alpha I played one match of the alpha and didn't play again until the beta when my friends convinced me to give it another try And I played it every single day ever since until I eventually got decent. Yeah, what you picked up what a mobile was all about Eventually 3,000 hours later on YouTube Geez Let's let's move on to a meta studios and in predecessor not a lot from then they're just still working on perfected the hero kits within the The gameplay ability system so that there will be no input lag whenever the alpha comes back online Really looking forward to that alpha coming back online. I hope it's I hope it's sooner rather than later fact You know, I actually Got a chance to speak to Sergeant today I need to saying that they had to recode a lot of the game But they've he mentioned that in comparison to the work amount of work that they got done Before hand since this time they're they're more knowledgeable on everything He says that in comparison to how long the old coding took them This one's running Lightning speed as compared to the other one and that they're hoping to come along and like, you know as soon as possible You know not giving any definites, of course wise man But they he's saying that it's coming along really really nicely and that everything is Absolute zero input lag that they're working on just a few of the kids a lot of the stuns they were working on He told me all right that they're a lot closer if they're at that point if you can imagine Yeah, yeah, it'll be it'll be definitely good to see it come back because that was a lot of fun Whenever we got to play it for like a couple days. Oh Yeah, bro all of us in a voice chat everything everybody from bearded verdict all of us just running around having a blast That was awesome. That was awesome. I miss it man. I can't wait. I'm excited I need to get what may need to get back into it because she was too focused on trying to be good at the game and Not doing like we were doing just like running around doing whatever the hell we wanted and like exploring, you know what I mean Yeah, no, no, you got to get in the voice chat. Shoot. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I was just running around be like bro. Look at me It was definitely a lot. Don't hit me for a second. I'm trying to do something Yeah, oh, that's a lot of that all day and then he died in minions like five times Oh Yeah, man, I look forward to it and honestly next time get her in here. Let me get a blast Moving on to a theory old with a well undying games with a theory old They're bringing in a discord manager so the team can focus on the game a lot of times The a lot of their time is spent managing people in their discord So they they want to have somebody just overall on top of that and I know a few people had some So few my subscribers had some negative experiences in their discord Which they didn't really fully explain but hopefully this will take care of all that and Leave them time to get that game done because I want it done as soon as possible because Man that game just looks so freakin beautiful and new and just incredibly awesome for that map is gorgeous just saying right like Like and we kind of talked about this several times in the past these even smaller hush hush companies like and like you know with a theory on everything I'm dying games They have a lot of potential They have a lot of potential especially with like the character models and everything. They look gorgeous, bro I'm looking forward to it. I am a lot of people complain that they haven't seen much gameplay out of a theory But we're out of undying for ethereal But the thing is they undying operates a bit more like you would expect a normal gaming company does like you normally don't get the kind of transparency we've been getting out of made above and Visionary and and Omeida studios you normally don't see this much of the game before it's actually out and playable and I'm just thankful that we've gotten as much as we had from we have from ethereal And hopefully they will have like a proof-of-concept game per gameplay trailer out for us soon But even if they don't you know, they're they're they're doing good things over there Just you just have to have a little bit of faith in them Yeah, and I'm sure when the videos come out, you know, let's speak for themselves because like you said honestly Usually it's on NDA. You know what I'm coming from. Yep. Usually we're not allowed to Even tell about anything that we see and at the end of the day when you see it It's usually when they release an official trailer and the game's almost done towards the end Yeah, I mean even if they stick to that route If what they release later on, you know, if it's actually, you know If it's hitting hard enough to put up with the big boys Hey, I'm totally down for it. Oh, yeah, and it's uh There are definitely some big boys. They got some they got some real talent on that team facts We didn't have we didn't have anything from Visionary and Phoenix rising not surprising They're still this little head down working on it But if you guys if you guys want to learn any more about any of these games Just go ahead take a look at the video description below and you can take a look at their discords Facebook Whatever I've got linked there. I don't know mainly discord discord Probably the best way to stay up to date on any of these games, but go check that out if you want to But that's it for the news and updates. So let's head into the poll results for this week Poor result. There wasn't really a big change last week Uh core was at 65 percent predecessor at seven ethereal at eight phoenix rising at two and all of the above Was at 19 percent this week Core was at 66 predecessor at seven ethereal at seven phoenix rising at two and all of the above again at 19 percent So it's only really one percent difference which makes sense because there hasn't been Much information and they'll pass the week as far as these games go The only the biggest information was probably the uh the core alpha being delayed But I mean that was really wasn't even this week that was last week So not a whole lot of difference here between the numbers and I wouldn't expect as much How do you think those numbers are going to have actually Plattole around that area until they start releasing more juicy information? I don't know I mean the reason I do the polls is so I can kind of track to see which updates affect what like Uh with predator I expected predecessors alpha to uh To bump their numbers quite a bit But then you know the out their alpha didn't go so great. So their numbers actually went down after they released their alpha and um Then I kind of expected cores numbers to go down after after their alpha was delayed Maybe uh, maybe people just haven't caught up with that But they probably will go down just people just view anything really negatively And then uh, you know when a ethereal releases their gameplay I expect their numbers will go up and phoenix rising Finally rears their head and gives us something I expect their numbers to go up quite a bit because Phoenix rising they were really the first out the gate They were the first to really start creating a spiritual succession of paragon yet I mean, they're not going to use the paragon assets. They're making their own heroes I guess they call masters or whatever, but I think when they do that before the game actually even shut down Yeah, they were they they started whenever whenever the uh, it was announced that uh paragon was closing So a lot of people had their hopes pinned on phoenix rising and uh Then their hopes were kind of a little bit crushed back in november where they had that big split in the company Which by the way, that's why madea buff and madea studios can't merge Um, if they tried to merge it would just gum things up to the point where we would never see a game um, there was a big split in in uh, visionary over, you know differences of opinion And now look how far behind they are now as opposed to how far forward they were before So everybody this that's what madea buff and uh, you know madea studios emerge. It's really not a good idea. I don't think Yeah, I mean think about it. It's like Trying to merge Two countries and keep and and merge the armies themselves at the end of the day, I mean Could it happen technically? but The amount of reworking to the structure that you would have to do and think about it you can't have Two presidents. You can't have two vice presidents. You can't have two Lead developers and et cetera so There would be so much restructuring that it might actually do the game more harm because there's so many Differentiating opinions of how the game should be. Yeah But at this point if they each have their own, you know level-headed team with the right mindset Everybody's working together. You know everything's copacetic at that point honestly, I say just Let them let them dog out let them Duke it out and see which one comes out on top eventually Yeah, I mean for us as consumers. It helps us if you think about it. Oh, yeah, competition is always better for the consumer For sure at the end of the day, we just get more content from both sides because they're competing with each other Yeah, so it's not a bad thing at all. I'm looking forward to it. Like I was like I've been saying it's I think Those two using the same assets. They're going to be a lot very similar probably the first year or two Because of the obvious reasons they're using the same assets But then after that first year or two that differentiating that's going to happen creating their own heroes their own kids, etc I think that's what's really going to have the game stand out and that's when they're going to stop being as much of You know not like a hundred percent competition More like just mobile competitors as along with the rest of the mobiles out there. Yeah That would be nice if they could just both continue on I don't think it's going to happen though I think when I'm all end up falling by the way, so yeah Yeah, I think realistically Like I'm not that optimistic like I try to be optimistic. I I really hope that they're both successful, but I don't think both of them will be Why do you think that is because Like I don't know like when I see it I I'm thinking more along the lines of There's different mobiles out there. You know just on the term of mobiles. There's different mobiles out there Even though one might end up with like 80 percent of the old mobile market and 20 percent of the other one has 20 percent That doesn't mean they can't grow their new market And still be able to grow you get me like even if it only has 10,000 active players That matches rainbow six sieges active players And it's still going you get what I'm saying. Yeah So I I think I think I'll still be able to what I what I really think is If they can get the marketing And if they can just be persistent Because I think the only way one of these remakes would fail is honestly if they give up because there's already a thriving community wanting content And there's some people that prefer monoliths some people that prefer legacy And you can even see the differentiating details on the map between those two Between core and predecessor I think they're I think they're gonna be able to make it Who's gonna be successful? I'm not sure But I I think they both said They can't Why do I think they can't Because they're competing for a fraction of the player base that Paragon had right now They aren't really doing much to appeal to a new player base Um, whereas like you've got Undying games and visionary they both are making products that appeal to a player base outside Of Paragon, especially undying with ethereal ethereal is doing so much New stuff with mobas and pulling in elements of all kinds of different mobas Including Paragon and everything. Whereas Omega studios and made above are only pulling from Paragon And if you're only pulling from Paragon, you're probably only going to be getting the fans of Paragon that want Paragon back And um, you're I don't think you're like 70% playstation. Yep, it's a playstation. So Yeah, they they both need to get their own console That's a good point. So You know what and I kind I I'll I'll agree with you on that because if they're both trying to get fishes from the same pool If one of them is more effective one of them is more likely to succeed Yeah, but but now if they start branching out to let's say the ocean for example I don't know how successful they'll be but I think you're right. I think I think if they both keep on going at the same pool and only focusing on that It's gonna turn into a win-lose scenario instead of fishing out in the ocean and you got multiple options Yeah, which they they need to transition to the ocean window loves his analogies by the way. Yes, I do. Sorry Too much my bad Let's uh, let's go ahead and move on and uh, let's take a look at tech time with rubah this time He's talking about hit scan versus projectiles. This one's a little easier to understand than last week's tech time So I hope you guys enjoy it Protect time this week rubah is going to explain the difference between hit scan and projectiles A lot of this ties into what we talked about last week. So if you get lost head back to episode 20 to get caught up I've got the game now. I'm gonna Apologize and you may have to fix the sound because this might be loud There we go, right So I have this is actually the first person example map. So this comes with the unreal engine Um, and it's just like a basic setup where you have a gun and you can shoot and you can Well, you can smash boxes round But what I've done is I actually have two different shooting types set up And what you wanted to know was talking about line trace versus projectiles. Yeah So here I've got um some Kind of code this everything up here is what comes with it This is the projectile code and then down here. I've kind of changed up and I've added in some different code To kind of show you what you want But very very quickly. I'm just going to quickly scooch through what this code does and explain projectiles versus line trace projectiles are I'll show you first actually So uh plate so projectiles are basically the ball that flies so you can see this has physics It bounces off objects. It can apply force to boxes like this So that's a projectile and probably the the biggest difference for a projectile is it's actually a ball or Yeah, a ball probably the best thing that spawns on the server that travels that has gravity has weight Um, you can like that those are projectiles So it's like a decker stun or a rampage rock Yeah, anything like that. Um, and that actually as well a lot of basic attacks use this Okay, um, which a lot of people assume that line trace will line. I'll show you line trace. So line trace is my right click Which kind of seems a bit different. I don't have the projectile turned up But what it's basically doing is it's drawing a line from my player Until I hit something right so it draws like a little laser pointer It draws a laser pointer through the world So if you imagine that you're playing a game that uses a hit scan weaponry if I can aim I can kind of shoot and Like it instantly fires out and those lines draw from the player And they hit stuff and they can also do things like it can tell what it hits So that shows that it hits there and then from that point on if I want to do things like pierce or anything like that It just draws a line So projectiles are the ball and that you can think if I wanted to hook up I could hook up the same like I could shoot the the box with the the line and it would do the same but I just have the projectile hooked up and What you can also do if I go in here and I select the projectile Is you can make the projectiles as fast as you want. So let me make that 20,000 And do that And the reason that a lot of the time A lot faster a lot of time people like make projectiles really fast is um You can do things like so say i'm doing basic attacks and say paragon and basic attacking someone You can like that shots almost instant instantaneous, right? But if someone gets in the way Or you have things like a shield Shield yeah, his bulwark his right mouse button Um, you can interact with the world. So imagine like Like that box over there is revved and this is a steal and he puts his shield up if I line trace Sometimes it can get weird in terms of how we're handling it But you can use projectiles now in that example straight through them because it's so powerful Um, but it just gives you different options. So yeah, if you're doing something like a decker stun Um, like your projectile would be really slow. So um, let's make it something like I don't know a hundred Just to show There we go. Oh, that's What did I do mongoose done fucked up, right, okay And say, uh That's what happens when I start freestyling and just playing about stuff I guess like a lot of this development's Well, at least it's moving in the right direction So imagine that was a decker stun like that, um Fires down and it actually probably goes into the point we're talking about when we go back to the like the murdok So imagine i'm throwing my Decker stun ball And like a lot of the time like decker stun ball would hit and you'd be like it didn't stun Or you would miss but it did stun a lot of that is with the I fire the projectile and then the server has to go back and confirm it as well. So okay That's kind of tied into the same things again. But yeah, like you can Like change this how you want and do it and like unreal engine like big part of it is how flexible it is So let's try and make this and one like this is how stickers decker stun was done was using a projectile um For that so you can see that's nice and slow and you could just play about that until you got something but There you go. So all right. Um, so yeah, so just to very very quickly finish up I can quickly show you how this works Um, so we'll ignore a lot of this. This just plays like the animation But here this spawns a projectile Right spawn first person projectile And that sends it and fires at location And that that spawns where the character is So um a lot of this like get world rotation and location. This tells you where the player is And then it fires the spawn of the the projectile based on where those like location in the world are The line trace is slightly different And that this just draws a line from your start which in my instance is the gun Um to location that you dictate. So in this example, I've said 5000 Unreal units is where it's going to end And yeah that Just draws a line out so you can use like like different games use different styles depending on like even like the weapons So in a lot of first person shooters like apex legends, some of their guns are hitscan Um Which one is it the havoc has a as an option where you can get a hitscan. So when you aim and press the button It instantly hits Um other weapons have like weapon flight time. They would be projectiles probably be faster than my stupid balls, but Um, it really like you have different options depending on that and for melee weapons There's like other options again, some of them like they obviously don't use projectiles But they sometimes draw boxes in front of the character and then you you figure out like do I hit stuff in the box? Or it uses the weapon And when the weapon you swing it when it goes through stuff it figures out whether to hit stuff like that So you have lots lots different options for doing it. So that is Well, I was gonna say the wrong thing that's hitscans and projectiles. Okay. Uh, just real quick um the average Basic attack for paragon was it hitscan or projectile because it seemed like it was projectile to me Projectile I would definitely projectiles. There would have been really fast projectiles. Yeah. Um, and even things like um So what was the what was the billy? Revenants q that fired all like the the the spew projectiles Um, they again, they were all projectiles and it caused lots of weird problems like um steel shield used to not block Revenant stuff right. Yeah, um and Reven stuff used to go through lots of things and a lot of that was The way that projectiles are handled in the world and it wasn't something that went round But I would pretty much guarantee that Like it might feel instant. You might think it's a line trace, but it's more than likely going to be projectiles Primarily because you get more options with like dynamic abilities like I don't know an aurora Statue or a decker shield or something Projectiles give you more options in terms of the way that they interact with each other. Okay, cool right on I'll imagine it'd be a lot easier for yin too Yeah yin yeah, yeah Yin's one of the heroes that I didn't think about like we had a lot of discussion about like what heroes in paragon Would be the easiest to implement versus which ones were more difficult from like a technical implementation standpoint And when I started thinking about yin and oh, she's she's probably one of the most disgusting heroes in terms Of the workload that you have to do to make her abilities work. Yeah Yeah, that that's gotta be Especially her ultimate Oh, if you think about so you're having everything and then being able to send it to a different location. Yeah You have to fire a projectile hold the projectile Remember who fired it like what their power was What level the ability was and then if she doesn't do anything you have to go right Well, that's still like how it serves weapon Like he still fired it. So now take all harasser's power, but then if yin flies it back at harasser You have to go. Well, it's not harasser's missile anymore because it now needs to deal damage to him So now it becomes yin, but it's like how it like It gets super Think of all of that Yeah, like everyone actually thinks Think about heroes like like race is probably gonna be tough Revenant and it's gonna be really tough But like heroes like yin well these little nuances just get really messy really quick now race snipe seemed like it was hit scan It probably was um again like you can do a lot of stuff with projectiles Like that's the thing like you can make projectiles really really fast Yeah, and they don't do stuff But line trace like you can do it as well It's like it's weird like you can you can make it feel like a line trace, but actually we'd be in a projectile So is uh, is that everything you had for us this week or do you have something else? That's everything I have this week. I want to put a bit more together, but I'm just back from travel So hopefully worries that that covers billiards like gas like if you have any more gas questions or follow-up stuff You want to see some more about it feel free to ask Um, and then just a little bit online trace and other stuff. Okay. Yeah. This is really interesting stuff Okay, folks this week for the topic of discussion We're going to be talking about the tutorial implementation in paragon How they uh how they kind of failed at it a little bit and how made above omeda can succeed and how even uh How undying games and visionary can succeed where paragon failed with a better tutorial And this was the the top of the discussion is brought to us by windu himself So windu probably has a lot to say on it. What do you got to say windu? Too much man. I mean I mean we could just start off with the point that Whenever paragon really first came out They didn't necessarily Really have a good foundation for tutorial unless you went online and find out what a moba was Because think of it like this Similar to what was something you talked about earlier Even paragon and epic themselves. They didn't necessarily market too much as to other Mova groups or the rest of the ocean that we the analogy we used earlier They really were They did a little bit of advertising But their biggest source of advertisement was that playstation store and that free to play section that they have Because I know so many people That genuinely just downloaded the game played it got used to it loved it But they only did so because they went on playstation They checked what was on the free to play and it was right there on the front page featured And I think that's got a lot to do with how huge the paragon their playstation side. What it was But that also means that the average playstation player Isn't used to a moba unless they play smite So you had so many people like mongoose you probably remember this so much How many matches did you have back then? Where you just see let's say like a giddy in our grainstone go 40 minutes and not even equip a single card Oh, yeah, no idea what he's doing. Do you remember that? Oh, yeah back in the og days I don't mean that still probably happened towards the end But back in the og days when we started and we were all fairly similar elo If we want to call that the mmr or whatever they implemented back then People would just grab the game and unless you had a a buddy of yours on voice chat or something They're like, okay. This is what you want to do This is how you do it build this card. Well, I'll tell you why you should back up at this point Like having actual guidance and instructions or even practice so to speak You just you just kind of had to Go into the ocean and learn how to swim on your own. Yeah, it was rough So and I honestly think for these new companies They're they're each going to want to be innovative. You got me? They're each going to want to be unique In their own ways and we saw that slightly backlash in the proof of concept for Uh core whenever they were like, oh, well, this is our itemization system And it was more concept complicated than solving a rubik's cube for a new person Like a new person was going to come in and be like Okay, hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Wait a minute. I see wait. Wait. I see 18 squares There's like a little bar on top. Yo, my little bar just lit up. What the hell does that mean, bro? Is that good? Is that good? That I wouldn't But but that's the thing like Even if you have proper tutorial Like a proper tutorial implementation if you make it too complicated I think they're gonna they're gonna struggle. I think they should really keep it as to easy to learn hard to master Let the items themselves be the mastering part Don't make it like a They'll make it so you have to pick cards, but you don't get all the cards You have to earn those cards in the chest and not only that When you go through it after you earn that up, but you didn't earn the right upgrades Now that card doesn't have the right upgrades. You got a card that isn't all the way full Oh, and you know what and we'll give you a 60 point limit that you should have studied about before because now that you're mid-match You added up all your shit and you just found out it adds to 47 You didn't do the math right you didn't have this. Oh and that deck that you built on gravestone Sorry, you can't use him on twin blast because that's not the way this works And you get me like so much complexity As opposed to just an item shop where you just buy Yeah, what's there and eat and even with an item shop if they want to go into detail and Have a quick 90 second tutorial and they start they were doing this towards the beginning I don't know if you remember this back in the legacy days how they would have a quick little world. This is Bellica this is how you play her. I would suggest building these type of cards and that was nice It gave you a rough little idea. So, okay, so I should be looking towards these type of cards But then they never I actually explained how To actually add those cards. They never had an actual video showing. Hey Well, this is how you Create the deck and do this online like a full comprehensive one video Instead of going on youtube and having to look at 20 videos to kind of piece it together yourself Yeah, what do you think what do you think would be cool to add tutorial wise like this tutorial wise I mean, yeah It should be I mean, there's plenty of other games that do tutorials really well. All they have to do is copy Pretty much any of them just take you through A Match that doesn't like, you know, just a bot match and like and you know, stop you at certain places Be like here's your card shop. Here's how you can buy cards. Here's the cards you want for this kind of hero Then boom, you're at the minions. These are minions if you hit one If you get the last hit on this one you get more gold And like it but if you hit the other enemy hero, his minions are going to come after you You know just very simple by the numbers Hold your hand through it kind of tutorial would have been Really good for paragon and would have Prevented like what you were talking about people just not equipping cards at all or you know Going all like basic damage like attack speed cards on gideon and stuff with zero ability damage. So In fact, I mean, you're always going to have those trolls too but You actually bring up something interesting as to the fact that you know, like copying other MOBAs or other games, you know, leaving them by the hand Because I know we've talked slightly about this before they did have the smallest Uh little tutorial and that custom map that they had Where you played against a steal. I want to say if I might if I'm remembering that correctly Yeah, something like that, but they had it For just a brief moment where it was like, you know, like a minute and a half tutorial showing you Oh, well this and you now target the tower the objective is to kill the tower, etc but I don't know if it was implemented too well because if you actually Saw it back in the day. There was a small question mark in the old legacy menu There was a small question mark on the top right corner right next to the custom matches area the small settings cog That question mark was a tutorial But nine times out of 10 People wouldn't even know that that shit was up there because it would literally just Hey, y'all, how do I what they how do I play is like, oh it says do this and when after b42 I want to say they started in But I still Don't know if it was as effective Because even b42 like I got a lot better But you still saw that sometimes on the lower you know, I would smurf or something That was like a poor guy I know I send him a message I know when I first started playing I was um, I got in but I got into a paragon because of a youtuber that I used to watch played it Um Really and I took a lot of his word his law and after I started playing for maybe a week or two I was like wait a second. He has no idea what he's doing because he was like building full wind cover blades on steel And talking about how how it serves the worst character in the game and nobody should ever play in And you know after yeah after like a week or two I was like wait a second. He has no idea what he's doing. So like Even the creative community back then wasn't really providing good guidelines on how to Really play paragon, but I think I think a lot of that stemmed from people didn't realize that Paragon players were people that had never played mobas before and had no idea how to play a moba It's a whole new genre of game That people were treating like a first person shooter because that's what they were used to and that's what paragon kind of looked like Was like a third person shooter so Just a basic How to play a moba tutorial is what they really needed. I think more than more than anything else But i'll say this because I distinctly remember also watching tyler one Try paragon. I remember watching that like you know like three years ago or whatnot And even tyler one was walking around and for those of you that don't know that's Grandmaster status league legends player like one of the best in the world adc eccentric, you know unique granted for those of you that know who he is But even him whenever he first got on paragon. He was like What the hell is this? All right, let's let's pick this card. He was like That I I don't know like let's just I'm gonna click on that button I don't know what the hell that does like let's put that on the card whatever so Even with experience. I know a lot of moba players that actually came into the game and even though they Dynamics of a moba. They still weren't too sure about how the game itself worked or how the item shop worked So I just honestly think like keep a simple like if they keep a simple They should be able to at least like have that Like something less to worry about And I don't know about you but I rather than put that time into a better item shop, you know better cards, uh, you know hell, I mean put that over towards some actual Game developing all that creative concept all that creative time that you're gonna be spending on Trying to reinvent the wheel instead of just keep the old wheel, which is add a new engine. Yeah You got me. I think I think sock up something about best. He's like Call them cards if you want, but just make it an item system just draw a box around it and call it a card But it's just you know people get stuck on the card versus item thing And uh, that's such a they're the same thing like I'm sorry in my mind Item card tokens rooms gems. It's all the same thing people call it what you wish At the end of the day, it's it's it works the same. You'll be okay. I promise ancestors item shops seem to work. Well, I mean, I mean they were card shaped but you could You know, you could go in and you could you could buy whatever card you wanted and you could um What am I trying to say? Categorize them to where like if you wanted, you know, physical attack You could pick physical attack. Yeah, the defense offense that So I thought their item system worked pretty well and it was pretty simple and uh Pretty cool. I do kind of I do kind of wish it was easier to navigate as for illustration Because you know how the cards kind of look the same basically. Oh, yeah, that's maybe like a color difference Like it would be cool as like like let's say you're trying to scroll through the cards And I don't know where you see one That has a gun shooting That's going to be a clear indicator. That's more than likely a range adc or something like you got me Or like I don't know where like I haven't got created with it put a card that generally has giddy and throwing a rock Just something crazy like that and then it'll be like your magical damage increased by by 30 Yeah, or whatever number they wish to do like I think if they make also making it a little bit easier to navigate would be good because Whenever you were in there you had moments that you were probably just going back and you're like Let me look at these cards that one gives me movement Like I had to literally constantly keep reading between the legend on the right And looking under the card and be like, okay, that's the movement logo. That gives me 10 Okay, so if that gives me that then this I'm like, I'm not gonna want that card for my guy I just spent like seven seconds reading this card. Jesus Christ. Yeah Okay. All right. That one gives me a tax feed. That one gives me damage. Okay. All right, you know what? I'm putting the summer duck yellow. Okay bet I was I got a little bit annoyed. I did like it was simple to use But I genuinely I was like, let me get my reading glasses now. Wait a minute. Okay So I'm A little bit easier to guidance, you know, just a little tip for predecessor and core and all of them a little bit Easier guidance on that side might be best Especially for a lot of those later end cards that had a lot of attributes into it Because some of those late game cards on predecessor, bro, they cost like 3000 points But that would give you like seven different things. Like I've never seen more loaded cards in my life or items or whatever you want to call them Like even if you're playing leagues, my dota, whatever, there's gonna be cards that might have like Three or four benefits like it'll give you damage penetration attacks me. It's like, whoa, the cards will be But uh, I saw cards that it was like, all right, this one's gonna give you movement speed It's gonna give you damage a tax fee pen mana regen. How for I'm like, what the fuck Bro increased damage against jungle minions Yeah, bro, and then it was literally to the point that I'm like, okay. So that card's gonna cost me 3000 I'm about to buy this card for 1500, but I can only sell it for 11 I don't even know if I want to go for a mid game card at this point, bro Like at this point, I might as well just save for the late game I think that's all balance issues that are inherent with with an alpha, but yeah What do you think about progression trees and item shops like Like let's say house might has it where This levels up and do these three things and then if you pick this it League of Legends has the same as well. Yeah, like if you buy this one, yeah You can upgrade it into that one and it just a hundred percent Flows into it. It's not like a dead end card. So to speak you have to sell and lose points I think that's kind of what core was going through and they're going for and their proof of concept They just did it weird They the way they did it so it's all different cards Yeah, but normally it's like your boots Upgrade into swift boots and your swift boots upgraded to warriors boots You never lose the original boots, but they upgrade into something else Whereas the way core had it you had boots you had to buy three boots and wore your boots So you got two more too many boots for your feet there I think that's just unnecessarily Complicated not not really complicated just unnecessary just flat out But um, I don't yeah that that item system is not going to make it into the core's final product by the way I should right now. Yeah, that disclaimer, but yeah, I think that's a good way to do it I think that's the way people are used to seeing it and the way it's normally done and it's um It's a proven concept that works and I think that's probably the best way to go And you might be asking real quick on the tutorial side just going back to it before we continue Do you think That the tutorials should just be Like on their game or do you think they should actually push tutorial on like social media discord, you know facebook, etc I like have those tutorials Amply spread out and constantly advertised so that people even though people might think they have an idea if they watch the video They're like Damn, bro. I've been building this shit all wrong. What the hell? Or what do you mean? I'm not supposed to get seven early game cards and then just slowly change those out later But what do you mean you get a boost whenever you get a big item, bro? Oh my god. What are you talking about? Yeah, like are there so many people that Could still use the guidance because Well, some one thing I want a lot of people to know That once you you know based off of the agorad.gg elo system once you got to I want to say gold once you got to gold or 1300 as it was then You were already top 15 percent of players So and even gold isn't necessarily considered as too knowledgeable when it comes to most mobas and everything but Even then so 85 percent of players were silver or bronze It's a pretty safe assumption to say that silver and bronze Don't know too much. They're still learning right They're probably in the hardest learning curve at all Of all because even if they're starting to get the game They might be with teammates that don't get the game and that's when they have to focus on carrying the most so I definitely think that Not only the paragon epic and paragon Miss the opportunity of implementing tutorial properly and getting it to the right people I Honestly think that when these companies aim at making their own tutorial however, they wish they need to point it at anybody that's going to download it first of all, but even then they they need to share it as education and More of hey, this is how you learn how to play our game instead of this is what you have to do before you play the game Yeah Because everybody knows if you have to take that test tomorrow You're going to study your past the test but a year from now. You're not going to remember the answer to that test You're not going to remember the questions But if you actually learn because you want to you're going to remember what the fuck 2 plus 2 is 30 years from now the et me So I think I think official tutorials through their social media is a great idea the stuff the paragon should have done just very simple things like um Stuff that's just actually absolutely, you know can't can't go wrong like How to play carry? Yeah How to be a support like this is a kind of card you need for this guy This is the kind of card you need for this girl You know, these are the kind of cards you need to go on countess but That's how I just mentioned countess because I know you love countess and I love your countess video by the way but um By the way, check out his uh hero reviews. They're amazing But um, but yeah man Like it's it's just such simple things that if they had like a distinguish individual within their community Just creating that content creating guides and that was his sole purpose You know how to build an appropriate this and that and I know I lost a lot of us content creators do that already To try and educate them for more they can't but if they had More of a simple terms one has to like we mentioned like Okay, so there are five major roles In amoba and then they explain the roles. I guess you could say six for the sassy But so there's six major roles in amoba, you know And then they actually explain the roles where each role typically plays and then from there Be like hey, well, you know what? We have a our separate playlist if you want to learn how to carry if you want to learn how to support Basic tutorial click here Like they could like a company can easily set that up in a weekend And have that in there to educate and help guide the community to where it's not 85% are silver and below They might be able to get it to 70% And just that difference having 30 of your players be more knowledgeable than the rest Makes a huge difference whenever you're balancing Because a lot of people aren't going to know what balancing is if they don't really know what the game is A lot of people aren't really going to understand how to implement certain things or what truly is appeared Not because let's be honest if you're in if if you were in a silver bronze match As long as one person got fed that hero always seemed OP You could have been going against a grim that was this you know and at its worst time ever because we all know grim Didn't get enough love you could have been going against the worst Time that grim was there Against a grim that just carried because he had skill and and you might have had Seven people in that lobby is like bro grim is OP. How did that people down use on that great? Yeah Bro, oh my god. Why is he all to me so much this guy's so OP? And then the first thing to do is after that match they go on reddit or something like Grim old need nerf. Yeah, whatever that whenever that man hasn't even figured out how to probably build his item shop So I definitely think that's going to be a huge thing I think it'll lead to a better player enjoyment if players knew what they were walking into before they came into the game too back For sure. Good points. Good points all around. I got anything else you you want to add to the tutorial implementation implementation discussion I mean, we pretty much covered Just about every side. I'm sure you know, you're gonna get a lot of mentions in the comments I said things that could be implemented but It's it's just more of a hey, we're a community that's willing to help you But a big part of you listening to the community is also educating the community because at the end of the day It doesn't matter how much you listen to the community if even the community itself Doesn't have a proper vision right So before you can listen to the community before you can Pay attention to those ships out at sea build the lighthouse, please I'm sorry. I'm just saying it's accurate, bro. It's accurate. It is both my house. I like your analogies Yeah, you don't gotta do much build the lighthouse at least the ships know what direction they're going If from there if they tell you hey build the dock out further, you know have assistance over here You know what you should actually move this on that side whatever Implementation that might be from there. It's perfect But if you just have a ship out at open sea where the hell's he gonna know where to go if he doesn't have direction You're gonna have the entire community pulling different directions And then you're gonna end up with an epic just saying we're not listening to anybody because we're getting feedback from everywhere Right build the lighthouse build the lighthouse 2019 windy hashtag All right, let's move on to uh suggestions. We got some more community skin ideas Shark gave me an idea for a flaming giddy and he actually provided a picture So I'll show that there. I think that's a good idea for giddy and everything's like fireballs and stuff instead of the cosmic purple Um radiation and everything that he has I think that you know a big um Big glowing fire disk whenever he does his ultimate that'd be kind of fun For sure and then I just sounds amazing. Yeah, it just sounds epic, right? Yeah And then I have no idea for an oni terra I think that's a really cool idea like a deep like a demonic Japanese Terra skin And uh instead of an actually we'd have a Kenobo. I don't know. You know what a Kenobo is one of those Big sticks with big metal studs in it Kind of like the Japanese version of a mace I think that would be a really good idea for it's very fitting for terra I think since she's got she's already got that kind of horn coming out of her helmet I just see that I could see that It definitely would fit in and you know like kind of like how about that ancient armor all over her So she's already covered in armor. Yeah, it'd be dope. That'd be awesome and then uh the last weeks for the minions everybody was talking about a cowgirl yin which I think is Absolutely great since she's already got the whip and everything could be kind of like a lasso That'd be badass That's amazing. I love it. Shark is actually working on drawing it. So And then uh sake a gender bender for mori baron samadhi uh baron samadhi is a A voodoo god, but uh, he's in um, I believe he's in smite Yeah, but I think any kind of voodoo kind of stuff for mori gash would be you know, very fitting and amazing I think that would actually be Relatively easy because like even like a like the other los mortos on her would actually be perfect to go with She's already got that darker vibe with the face pain and everything So that's awesome. I like it put a top hat on her and she'd be she'd be set. She's already Already bearing you can give her give her like magicians clothes basically And then you got her What's the skin that you always wanted would do? All right, I'm not gonna lie I always hoped for that and I get back to nabash. I always hoped for our nabash Like a like a pop-eye skin I mean pop-eyes or like kfc or like it was just a bucket of fried chicken And all he did was swing two drumsticks And he threw fried chicken at you Oh, that would be priceless an actual drumstick Yeah, you just got a drumstick thrown at you, bro Like how does that like you want a two piece here you go? I'll throw the side on there for you Like just freaking amazing put one of those paper hats on him Yeah, like do it up. Have him like dress him up with the apron and everything bro Do it like instead of instead of like his little canister hanging put like like condiments like ketchup and shit on the side and everything Have him like with an apron a nice little tie and everything like he works at the worst establishment ever But he's just there to do his job. I want him to look like that I want him to look like he's looking for table seven and he's lost as hell That would be amazing That would have been priceless great idea great idea He never got any much after the halloween skin, which I did like the pumpkin one Um after that he didn't really get too much love So sad face on that side a lot of heroes didn't get too much love as to skins But for darbash. Oh, there's there's so many possibilities so many possibilities Yeah, darbash was such a cool hero. They could have done a lot more with him Oh, well, what do you what do you mean like content-wise or skin-wise skin-wise? Yeah Oh, I felt I felt that like I just did a video on this actually I don't know how they determined who was going to get skins I think it was just whoever they thought up cool skins for Because I mean You would think it would be like a like a business thing like whoever's played the most would get the most skins So they could that's what I thought But like we'll think about what's picked the most Quang was picked a lot quang was very popular quang was very popular serith was very popular Neither one of them really got anything for skins, especially quang quang just got Some recolors is really all he got You know wrong, but what if What if it's still on those lines because even though he got picked a lot What if they honestly just focused on who got picked the most because let's say if quang had a 30 pick rate, for example but There's focusing on 10 heroes to make skin for and he just happens to be like number 13 Because we all know like calari Merida got a lot of love chimera got it. Shit ton of love. I had like 30 chimera skins that I paid for I got a $200 refund from epic when that happened like one whenever we got that but Maybe it was just and again being mindful of Bronze and silver elos were the the majority of it Maybe down there towards that side a lot of the picks were just things that we didn't see coming It might have been total different picks as opposed to what we were used to on the higher end. That's true. That's true I know murdoch got a lot of love and he had a lot more love coming to him down the line Oh, yeah, all those like it was like tier four cowboy skin. You remember that one Yeah, that never that never actually released though, right? No, they didn't release it like they even they even cosplayed it at one of their weekly videos And everybody was excited to see it. It's not in the epic It was like it was just a drawing that they never did anything. Yeah I mean, which is kind of salty his outlander skin. I thought was even cooler, but Yeah, I love the reptiles kid on him. Yeah Did you see that see the show gun? That was my favorite No, I actually haven't yeah, his gun was like a big dragon's head with the barrel sticking out of the mouth That's amazing. He had full showgun armor. It was really really cool I did see the chimera chinese new year one that one Yeah, look to me as well like they had I don't know and I know this is all past news They had a lot of potentials to that side and I think these newer companies have a lot of potential For all that creativity like I've told Um, obelisk. I told sergeant, you know talking to everybody. I'm like, hey, well, you know what? I personally think skin wise You guys want to make money. We want to be creative Give me a just the base custom skin the base skin, right? Simple base skin. I'm not asking for much. I'm not asking for you to code everything. I personally want A color wheel option that helps me change some parts of their armor. Not all make it easy on you guys Some parts of the armor Kalari running around with a pink cape. I want to be a murdoch with the lime green chest running around I want to be a decker with a freaking per like super bright purple staff imagining. That's my lightsaber I just I just want those little key features in there for every character. You decide what they may be But then if they decide to do that and be like, all right, so it's a base skin But 99 cents if you want to color code it They'll make money. I know I'm about to spend about 50 dollars of 99 cents on every hero Because that's gonna be awesome. You know, just throwing out ideas. Not officially confirmed by the way But I'm saying like there's so much opportunity and I know monetizing has been a huge Topical discussion for everybody I I'm confident at talking like when I talk to the heads and everything I'm confident that they will figure out what to do when that comes around But I know that us as a community we want to be able to have as much creativity thrown to us as possible Without losing sight of bounce Without losing sight of gameplay because I do I definitely do gameplay should come first a thousand percent Like I don't care how pretty it looks if I go in there and it's just a broken ass morguech Ought to me every three seconds and you know, like I'm talking about she can melt you No matter what even full tank and armor and everything at that point I'm gonna need you to stop working on that skin Work I don't I don't I don't care if my skin glows. I need I need you to fix this So, uh, let's move on to the community builder this week and it's uh, oh, oh does uh, you always see him in the comments He's got a small youtube channel. He just did a pretty interesting video about the um Kind of dual heroes uh sparrow having kind of a bit of duality there Go go check him out. Um, you know if you like him Subscribe if not move along like I always say these are just suggestions If you guys want to go check these people out Uh, oh, that's actually going to be hosting for the minions with us here pretty soon So you get another look at him, but uh, I think that's going to be about it. Uh, window. You got anything you want to applaud Uh, honestly, I'm just gonna applaud You man goose and mandy. Sadly. She couldn't be here because she's feeling sick but Like I talk to you guys all time. You guys actually Throw my name out there often. So I do appreciate that by the way. I don't think I don't notice but um Honestly, like these guys are great content on youtube. Everybody make sure that if you haven't followed already this man Please do like I I watched four the minions every single week and as soon as he hit me up and he's like, hey Do you want to go ahead and be in this? I was like Hell yeah, let's go like shoot. Why not? So, uh, it's honestly just thank you for having me here Above all and make sure that you guys show this man a lot of support Make sure you like and comment below definitely and uh the same goes for window. Check out his uh, twitch stream I'll have it linked in the video description below. He's uh, excellent twitch streamer excellent mic quality like i'm very jealous of your mic quality and uh His quality stream over overall very entertaining So check window out give him a follow hit that little heart so that you know when he's streaming and you can Check him out and uh, but that is going to be it before I go. I just wanted to leave one last little note. Um You can support one game without shitting on the other guys like Nobody's going to think better of you if you're Saying bad things about one of the games like you're not going to garner better reputation with the with with meta buff By shitting on predecessor You're not going to garner like smoky over at a meta studios It's not going to think highly of you if you come in his discord server and start shitting on core It doesn't work that way That's not the way to to gain respect of these companies if you want to gain respect Just be a shining light in that discord. You know support them Do everything you can to help them out but do that without you don't you you don't have to you don't have to Be thrown shade at the other companies man. So just just knock that off if you could Back every everybody can win and even if not everybody wins You don't got to sit on the sidelines You know Trying to make it worse for everybody at the end of the day. We all want success for everybody Exactly But for now, this is the mangu side and the the for the minions crew signing off. You guys have a good one Man go