 Hi, I'm Jay Fidel. It's the three o'clock block here in a given Wednesday. We have Jackie Esser with us, and you must know that name. She just ran for prosecutor and we want to talk to her about her experience. Thank you for coming down Jackie, really nice to see you. Thank you for the invitation, Jay. It's an honor to be here. I'm looking forward to this conversation. Well, I thought you, you know, we had just white women lawyers debate a few weeks ago. I thought you were quitted yourself very well there. In fact, some of the remarks you made and your style and handling the questions. Elegant, I'm telling you now. I was very impressed. Yeah. Um, we want to find out today when I sort of slip into where you've been over the past few months and find out what it's like to run for office to run for prosecutor. So you're a public defender, you're on the other side of the coin. Why run for prosecutor. What, what turned you on about that? Well, you know, being a public defender for more than a decade five down the other side, I've just seen how prosecutors policies have really truly been destroying families individuals for generations. It's wasting millions of our dollars and it's failing to make us safe. So I got to a point as a public defender, you can't change the system on a whole. You can help an individual process through the system. But then they come right back and that that cycle really wears you down as a public defender. I know it really wears the public down, but I can't change anything on a systemic level as a public defender, but you can as prosecutor. So about a year ago, I decided to run for for prosecutor to end this cycle and to end mass incarceration, and it's been an incredible journey. You know, it's working every single day fighting every single day for something that's way larger than you are. And it has never been about me, and it's been about a movement and a movement that puts people before jails and prisons and it's just been an incredible experience. Well, you know, the, you wonder where where the heads of the electorate are. So you didn't pull into the two front, you know, two front positions but what kind of attraction what kind of traction did you get. You must have had feedback from you know the community. Did they read with you did they want to follow your your trail on this. And we had amazing momentum, especially up until the last few weeks, I would say that people really started hearing our message, and these are new conversations for people and it's not typically what people think of a prosecutor they typically what people think is that prosecute prosecutors prosecute and their only job is getting a conviction. But that's a false assumption and the prosecutors role is public safety and that means so much more than just locking people up. It means investing in families education housing and healthcare treating public health issues like public health issues, and using our jails and prisons to solve all of these problems which is ill equipped and we've seen it on because of the, the failure rate, but I, you know, traditional prosecutors, especially here since it's been an elected position have run on this tough on crime, rhetoric, people buy into it it's very easy to win elections based on fear. And so this was the first time that really a prosecutor ran on on this platform and and these conversations have been made public there's a group of advocates who work, you know, dedicate their lives here in Hawaii who fight every single day but they're usually they're not out in the open and they're not generally accepted and so I think our campaign brought these issues to the front lines and we definitely saw we have the momentum and I just feel like we didn't have time on our side it took us a while to build up I didn't have any name recognition no one knew who I was and, and you know, we didn't have the money and it wasn't until the last few weeks it really started and just taking off and had we had a few more weeks we feel very confidently we would have been in that top two for the runoff. But you know it is what it is, but the momentum there and we're going to continue building it and growing it. You know about that reminds me you know your discussion reminds me of I think it was a 60 minutes program, maybe two three years ago it was about about criminal justice in Europe, especially in Germany and Germany has a reputation of being hard on people but at least but, but right now in Germany and in various other European countries they're not there they're enlightened, they're progressive. You know, there was some there was some footage of a fellow who had committed a murder and they let him go home on weekends and he was leading a relatively you know unrestrained life as a convicted murderer, who's who was serving a sentence, but they were allowing him all these, these liberties, instead of something that's really that's pointed at rehabilitation to extent we still think about rehabilitation. I guess that's where you are too. Exactly you brought up a really good point on most people site to Norway and, but you're right the European countries. The United States as a whole is the number one incarcerator in the world but we know that by far does not make us the safest country and you know it ends up destabilizing people's lives forever once you're in the system it's really hard but we know it statistically looking at the rates of recidivism the rates at which people reoffend. It's 60%. And so we're investing in this criminal justice system that focuses just on punishment and not on treating the root causes of someone's criminality and it's failing. And we're wasting millions of dollars every year at the tune of $236 million on and think about what we could do if we are focusing on the front end and not always dealing with the aftermath of crime but if we were investing in crime prevention stabilizing families, instead of just cycling especially our mentally ill and people suffering with substance use disorder we know the war on drugs doesn't work, but to talk to your point as far as the European countries if you go to correctional facility in Norway for example oh it's just incredible you know dormitory style housing you're there you committed a crime you lose your mobility your freedom but it's almost like you're at you go into a doctor's office once you when you your first day there they look at you as a whole you're treated as a human not as an animal and they look at you what is you know what's going on what caused you to get here and they're going to help you rehabilitate on whether it's trauma informed care whether it's education whether it's on job resources. You know it's going to be different for everyone. And when, and when they're there, they have, I mean they're treated like a true human and and they're recognized that they have the ability to rehabilitate, but our correctional facilities are completely the opposite they're overcrowded. They're in a cage, and you're just locked up we throw away the key we don't do anything if you had, you know no education before you went in, if you had no driver's license before you went in, we release you, even in worse conditions because you're more of these stabilized anything you had maybe you had housing. Now you don't have on you know you it's just reentry is missing here everything the whole system needs an overhaul. I'm shifting gears if you don't mind Jackie but I'm thinking I'm thinking of kind of the Harris. Now she, now she was a prosecutor of course, whatever degree of progressiveness, you may ascribe to her, but she went to court a lot and she spoke to judges and juries and you know and when she gets up to do a debate on the national stage or or now with Joe Biden there aside, she's she's ready to make a political speech. And I want to ask you about that because you know you can't run for office unless you can make a political speech were you a speech maker before you ran for office, or did you become a speech maker after you ran for office. I'm still not there, but but thank you know, I mean obviously as a trial attorney you're in court you're speaking on your feet and so that's something that's learned that's that definitely was not something natural for me. And I wouldn't say comes naturally but you do just, you know every single day when you're forced to do it you become more comfortable, but boy being a politician when I can advocate all day on behalf of someone else. No problem but when you campaign was really difficult because even though I was campaigning for all of the and the people who have, you know, suffered and who are system is really just destroying their lives I that was the reason that motivated me to run on it's it's so difficult because you're the face of this movement and so you're putting yourself out there. And I, and so that I struggled with that and I also struggled with the fact that we do to coven, we weren't on the ground, meeting people. And it wasn't I, you know this whole zoom. I learned, you know, a few months ago, like everybody else and so you can have these conversations but it's definitely different. I was very uncomfortable with social media I wasn't active on social media before. And when someone said you know you have to start people have to see that you're a person and you have to come across personable and it's hard to be a social media. So they're like just, you know, you're going to talk into your phone and just talk and I'm like, So I remember the first time I did and I took my phone and I couldn't do it I was like it was just so nerve wracking and so it was a huge learning curve for me and I grew personally a lot in this process, but as far as the speech writing know, and that definitely comes with time and practice. Yeah. So tell you say you grew and I really want to explore that because, you know, a lot of people and I'll tell you the reason I want to explore a lot of people who are really afraid of running for office. They think they're going to be embarrassed, better worse than they have ever been embarrassed in their whole lives. They think things are going to come out. They think that people are going to be attacking them and sending negative ads on them and it's a terrible experience and they don't want to expose themselves to that. But you found the strength to do it I like to hear your journey on that, and the kinds of challenges you had, and the way you met them. You know, you bring up a really good point and actually, so before I decided to put my name in it, I was helping there was like two or three of us who were looking for a person who would put themselves out there and run on this platform of for criminal justice reform. And we were searching for that person and then someone said you and I laughed for days like no way not me and and we could like could not find someone on, you know, to do it so okay okay but I finally ultimately decided to do it. But you're right all of those things you think about them on and you know unfortunately we have seen people whose reputation have been tarnished, but I took a pledge early on I said I'm running a clean race this is going to be about issues. I didn't have the political you know donors or the name so it wasn't that and I had to make it about the issues. And I think that was unique for Hawaii to people generally run on just name recognition or maybe their ties. But I really made this about the issues and luckily it was a clean race all of the candidates. You know we did an attack personally, and for the most part it was a very clean race and respectable so I had a good experience with that but I do acknowledge that it is a real fear and it stops people from running unfortunately In the last few weeks there was an attack email that went out about me. From a super PAC I saw the email it basically said she's endorsed by Bernie standards and once a lawless state I don't you know I don't know how you go from that to a lawless state but it was out there and whether that did harm I don't know but you know people will it is just I guess a fact of campaigning but with that said please don't stop that from you getting out there and speak and and letting people hear your message and your voice I encourage everyone and and that's the thing too is that we think that only certain people can run for office or you have to you know be a certain age or have a certain career a lot of people said well you're a public defender like what what do you mean you can't be a prosecutor but I have exactly the right kind of experience to run that office and I didn't let that stop me and I'm really it's what makes my message unique and so I just encourage anyone who's thinking that please don't and contact me I really want to encourage moving forward for everyone who has an interest to run to run because you can do it. That's very nice of you to say that. And so let's talk about you mentioned packs and all this and, and we've had a couple of shows in the past few weeks about packs and how they fund some people and for agendas perhaps that wouldn't be popular if they were public. Did you have any experience with packs pro or con. Did they give you any money how did you raise your money. So we, we did have so no super packs besides that one at the end that was attacking. As far as donors, it was it was hard. It was really hard because you're a first time candidate no name recognition people don't know if you're vital. But what we did have was a very clear vision and a message for more just Hawaii and and people responded to that and people wanted to give to just support that movement, regardless of my success rate. And we saw that and actually it was pretty amazing the amount because traditionally especially here in Hawaii people rely on unions and money from unions there's this establishment that's there well we didn't have that. And so the majority of our donors were small donors the average donation was $18 we had over 6000 individual donors. So pretty incredible. We also then had some, you know, medium size just people who believed in the mission as well. We did have support from a pack of criminal justice pack they're called real justice pack they didn't donate any money but they did help with social media so just getting the message out there. They ran their own they basically posted things on their website and they have a big following and so people heard about it that way. And then we also got the support what really helped turn the campaign and help launch us. You know, we are pulling that 2% up in up until when we, you know, the final, which was about 20% of the vote was the endorsement of Bernie Sanders and that was just truly incredible and such an honor. And, and, and he, he endorsed just basically on his he endorsed 10 prosecutor candidates around the nation, and it's because he is such an advocate for criminal justice reform, and he believed in the campaign and and he endorsed and then from there other people started more money and what really changed it for me is up until then I was working full time I still working full time. I hated the, if you ask anyone who's close to me the worst thing about campaigning is asking people for money, I just hated every single minute of it. And so I always had an excuse that I didn't do it and the, and it showed in our numbers we didn't raise money up until the very end and that's when I went on leave and every single day literally for eight hours. I called everyone in my Rolodex. Oh my gosh. Everyone in my Rolodex asked, you know, family, friends, and just, and, and that's how we were able to raise out raise every single candidate that last few weeks. What you raised in total, how much did you spend on this campaign. We spent everything we had on to get through the primaries and so I think total we raised. I'm not certain, but I think it was around 120,000 and we spent it all. It's unreal. That's something that was a shock to me I didn't realize how much you need campaigns need money to to work. It's basically running a company you have paid staff, you have to get your name out there and that costs money through ads, social media. At the very end, we were spending over, I think $2,000 a day on social media. We also had an amazing field team which is pretty new for Hawaii too. But we had, because of COVID, you couldn't go door knocking. And so you had to get creative. You had a phone call, you had a text people. That was new for Hawaii, not everyone appreciated that but during a pandemic, it's the safest way and you can have that direct contact with people still and so that also costs money. So at the very end, we were spending, you know, thousands every single day to get the message out to our voters. And so and that cost money. Boy, you were serious you weren't fooling around. You put a lot of bone and muscle into this. You must have worked 24 hours a day. Oh man, it really was and after afterwards you don't realize I mean it's just it was an incredible experience you're working day and night for something that's, you know, greater than yourself and our house turned into a campaign headquarters. The campaign manager was actually living with us every single day we woke up from the start to like midnight. And then it just halts and honestly, wow, that felt like a bus hit me for a few days I'm still recovering it just that adrenaline that you have especially at the last it just halts and then. Wow. It was it was pretty nonstop there. You think you'd ever do it again. You know, I'm not sure I'm not going to say never because you if you would have told me a year ago I'd be running for prosecutor I would have laughed and so I'm not going to say never we'll see what what the future holds but what I do know is I found a new passion. And I want to continue these conversations around criminal justice reform and new pathways to justice. And I also want to encourage other people to run for office and I want to help them in any way I can and so we'll see I'm not going to say never but right now I'm going to try and get my life back to normal. I'm spending some much needed time with my daughter and just just take it easy. Understood. You mentioned a minute ago Jackie that that you had an endorsement by Bernie Sam Saunders. And I wonder how that worked it. Did you call him one day say Bernie how about helping me, or did he call you and Jackie have looked all around the country, and you were on my special list how did that work. So I think someone who had been following the campaign on nationally just put the put the campaign basically on his lap. I got a call from his political director, who had said Bernie Sanders is interested in endorsing do you want his endorsement and I said, Oh, absolutely yes it was it was a surprise. But honestly I think someone nationally who was close to him was following the race and he was looking. It was one of his first apps after he was no longer a candidate for VP that he wanted to do and, and he had been since then he's endorsed other campaigns and he's focusing on local campaigns because he understands that's where most reform can happen. And so, and so he chose to endorse us and again we were one of 10 local prosecutor races that he endorsed so that's kind of how that happened. And then from their representative Ayanna Presley endorsed and the same thing she's an advocate for criminal justice reform and I think she heard about the campaign through other people who put it in her lap and then so she came out and endorsed. And so, you know, it sounds to me like if we're going to if I were going to ask you what would you focus on differently. Next time. It sounds like one of the things that comes to me from this conversation is endorsements really count endorsements and high profile people will will help you raise money and and and give you a traction. But tell me is that true and tell me what other, you know, lessons would you say you learned about how to running a campaign and how would you run a campaign differently. How would you run this campaign differently. If you could go back. You know, there was a lot of so this was a huge learning curve for me I had never run for office I volunteered a little bit as far as sign waving and phone banking for some other campaigns before but this was completely new to me. I didn't know the infrastructure and we were again a no name and unless you believed in our vision for justice. The big people here who work on campaigns weren't going to, you know, work for us we obviously didn't even have the money to pay you at that time so it was going to just be out of your devotion for the movement, you know, so to speak so for me the learning curve was I think the how much it took to that you really needed money and endorsements helped definitely helped because then I was seen as more viable other people it also people started learning about my candidacy and my platforms and policies. And so I think in my case the endorsements really helped. Next time around, I now know I now have this connection within the political committee community I know people I met a lot of people and connections. So I think if I were to run again for example in four years, starting out about two years I could then and and and assuming that I moving forward I still massage and I work those relationships and I continue in this community in this movement moving forward then about two years from now I can start fundraising and talking to people and it will be it's not something you can do in a very short period of time. It takes time and so I think that's the biggest takeaway for me that I that I learned. You know, I didn't really know you before you know the women lawyers debate a few weeks ago and certainly before the show. But it strikes me just just from this I know it's one dimensional but it strikes me that you have changed that this whole thing changed you. You've been from that from that a few weeks ago. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, that's just this my own subjective kind of reaction to it, but let me, let me ask you this this is really important. You know, I served. I served on the high tech development corporation and a few other attached agencies with DBET and, and the day I was sworn in justice Levinson was there and made a little speech. And he said, you know, when you when you're bit by the bug of government. It changes the way you see government. And it's like in your system, it's embedded in your way of looking at the world. And you're never the same. And, you know, okay, that's who he wants to say that, you know, all right, but it was true. It was absolutely true and I found you know in the years following when I served with government. I don't volunteer but when I served with government and these commissions that I was on the number of boards. You know, that he was right. And I had a different, I had learned I was learning my view of it my connection with it was much different. Now your situation is different in the sense that you work for the public defender. You know, government support and I don't know if you would say that's government probably not you would not say that's government, but but are you have you experienced the same kind of thing you run for office and all of a sudden, sort of like, like somebody in the media. You see the world differently. You're more connected to it you're more aware you're more, you know, involved. You know, the colors of brighter, you know, the facts are more real. The whole thing is, it has room for you. And I wonder, I wonder if you're having or you would have had that experience in running for prosecutor. Yeah, that's a great question, Jane. You know, I have the utmost respect for Justice Steven Levinson, and he also endorsed our campaign early on when no one else did and so, you know, he is a mentor of mine, and I most respect but I do agree with him, since that you do you do get bit by the bug I've been a life, you know, a career public servant I do believe the public public defender's office as a branch of the government. And again, it's, it's working for something my passion comes from something that is greater than myself and public service service gives me that. And, you know, I, it's funny that you say I have changed I do believe that this campaign has changed me, but it's not as you would say it, where everything is colorful. It was, you know, I've been just for the past year pointing out the injustices of our criminal justice system. And it's not just how we treat offenders or people caught up in the system. It's how our system fails to provide meaningful support to crime victims as well. And when you're so entrenched in that system you become numb to it. I could work day to day and you just even though what I saw was horrific I go home and you write it off because that that was your job. But now that I've been bringing in it to light for the last year. Oh man when I went I went back to court on Monday and it was so difficult for me because you just, I just know how inhumane our system is and I'm a part of it again and I can't do anything about it as a public defender as we started off the conversation. And so it's opened my eyes. And I, you know, because of that it's difficult. It's, it's like I see all of this injustice now and things that have to happen. And unfortunately I'm not in a position where I can change it. So, my eyes are open but it's not bright, colorful. Except that one last question I try to ask questions that I feel that people out there, you know, are signaling me I should ask you know and this is this question I think I need to ask you and that is. So you put all this effort into it and the time you put your heart and soul into it you ran a 24 by seven kind of campaign and you cared to the bottom of your soul about it, but you didn't win. Some other people want it. You know, now there are people who don't don't win elections that carry it this way and there are people who carry it that way. People are affected short term or long term. How, how are you affected by this what's your reaction. If I should ask you how do you feel about it. What would you tell me. Just, I guess short term physically I felt like I got hit by a bus like honestly the first. You know that night obviously is filled with emotions it was sort of shocking because it happened this election was like no other election where usually you have, you know, hours the first print out comes out and the second print out comes out and you're like okay do I have a chance. But this one was just boom, like, it was the first one and it was basically all of the votes and so it was like, you're hopeful and oh well and so I had to kind of make that in and I'm like okay so it was like that night it was more of a shock. And then I'm the next day just so tired like that adrenaline that you you've been running off of stops, and I just was just so tired, and then, and I'm still tired and I think it's going to take a while to go back to normality and just rest and so you know physically I that's how I feel physically about the whole thing I think it's you know it is what it is it's probably a blessing in disguise I think all things happen for a reason. And so for whatever reason this wasn't our time, but we what we were able to create this movement and this momentum was so remarkable and it wouldn't have been possible without the hundreds of volunteers and the people who just believed in this vision. And so we're going to keep fostering that and we're going to keep growing and we're going to keep building and we are going to do that until justice enders and so you know with that I'm hopeful and I'm excited about the future. Jackie, you're, you're part of a generation that will save Hawaii. I'm rooting for you to save Hawaii find a way to save Hawaii with you, and find a way to come back on our shows we can so we can check back with you and see how you're doing. I would love that thank you so much Jay it's been such a such a privilege to meet you I've enjoyed our last two conversations in here I would love to come back so thank you so much for the invitation. Jackie answer a candidate for prosecutor and now telling us what the experience was like thank you so much. Thank you.