 Welcome to economics and beyond I'm Rob Johnson president of the Institute for new economic thinking. I'm here today with warrington huddlin a good friend He's a motion picture television and online media producer He's made some wonderful films house party boomerang cosmic slip Unstoppable black at Yale and many others He's the founding president of the black filmmaker foundation He participated in Inet's 2016 conference in on race in Detroit and I don't know how every time I run into warrington whether it's at a movie screening or in my kitchen It's just things start to fly and I start to learn so Warrington, thanks for joining me and sharing with our audience here today. I'm delighted to be invited and can't wait to chop it up So here here we go We are in a you know, there's an old musician named cat Stevens and he sings baby, baby. It's a wild world and Right now it feels to me like everything is being unmasked the covers come off the ball all kinds of things all kinds of uprising all kinds of anxiety and in chaos when a system breaks down, but it's not a system we want to go back to and So how are you seeing? What's unfolding? with relation to the pandemic with relation to the social reaction to the death of George Floyd and others that preceded him and Where what's the light at the end of the tunnel look like and how are you and I gonna help us get to that light? Well, I'm sad to say that My point of view is that the system is not breaking down the system is doing what it's meant to be and what to meant when it's meant to do and The stats of people of color from the beginning in 1619 for it is to be subordinate and Exploited and it's almost like a person was walking down the street and you and you look in the mirror and is that me? Did I did I do I look like that and America's been able to deceive itself about what it does and how it treats people and What's happened recently is that that the reveal is there. It's always been going on What's the famous quote? Will Smith says that more recent simply more recordings more cameras and America is very uncomfortable with what it looks like where he sees in the mirror That's one part of America because yeah, the bigger the bigger frame for me is that the Civil War Never ended. It simply took a pause and the Confederates are back in the White House now and between Attorney General Barr and Donald Trump and and and and Mitch McConnell. He's all Confederates and they're trying to bring back that kind of Status for everybody who's not white and and and fortunately that today there's enough people who don't agree with that So the the kind of consensus of Racial subordination and discrimination and disenfranchisement that America's been practicing for decades Now when people see it in the mirror, it's oh, no, no, no, that can't be us So everybody's upset because they actually see what's been what's been going on consistently Yeah Well, my friend at Berkley's Othering and belonging is to John Powell talks about this notion of othering as though If they're different than me, I can I can categorize it and I can say In almost a subconscious way, they're not even human. Yeah. Oh, it's true. Absolutely. They're not worth it You know the Declaration of Independence We hold these truths to be self-evident That all men are created equal Well, if that's true, how come we don't treat them all like humans I mean we There's constant reference to the Declaration of Independence, but in the Constitution, you know, it's codified three-fifths of a man So at the same time and the people who wrote the man who wrote and signed that Many of them were slaveholders. So that's right. I think that that that we I can't get seduced by the promises of the founding Decorations of freedom and equality because they really did not intend to include anybody who was in white That's right. So, I don't you know, I don't so people don't always it's America is failed. Yes, it's failed You know, it wasn't intended to work. So we'll walk around either Surprised or shocked and I think if you're surprised to shock you haven't been paying attention You haven't been paying attention for hundreds of years Yeah, it's the original sin of the United States. Yes, and it's not and it's not behind us. It's upon us the ongoing sin Yeah, but what's it what's going on? What's ongoing? I'm sorry. I sound like Marvin Gaye. What's going on? What's ongoing is Being also fueled By young people coming up and seeing no ladder in the rungs of opportunity in other words There's a whole spectrum and of false promises yeah That are supposed to inspire you to want to be American and the yet The bluff is being called And the outcome of this pandemic and who's dying and who's forced into working in dangerous circumstances Is a testament to that that unfairness that inequality that inhumanity? And and and what makes that awareness greater than than before is for example, this stuff that doesn't stop right now if a person is 15 years old then then that's black Latino and Asians are the majority of Americans under the age 15 Next year, they've been majority on the age 16 and so on and so on So a few young person growing up in America today You have access and encounters and sharing the space emotionally physically Is that you with people who from multicultural backgrounds? So that kind of the ignorance of racism is difficult to to survive in that sunlight When we were often about to stand, you know, segregated across the tracks you could hold those ridiculous Racial viewpoints, but when you when you when you when the person your classmate or your office mate or whoever is Different then the humanity cannot be denied and I think that's part of the reason why things have changed so much Now is that people know that that was a human being They couldn't make the emotional psychological separation that they have in the past Yeah, I made a podcast recently with a gentleman you probably met in our Detroit conference Henry Ponder Who was in his 90s and he underscored this a great deal He talked about living in Oklahoma during the time of the depression and he said it wasn't even that Depressing because you didn't have a vision of anything that was that much different than what you were doing But now you can turn on CNN or seeing what a Ellen DeGeneres or whatever in her mansion and And the differences the class differences the differences in quality of access to health care nutrition any form of safety are The are how you say the contrast that is market is now in plain sight. Exactly. That's so true But same time you mentioned, Oklahoma, I mean, that's what the Tulsa uprising riot was I mean, that's the story of black Ambitions self-reliance Enterprise that was so successful that it disturbs white interests and white sensibilities and they literally tore that Burn down that town so so so that kind of The the relationships the historical relationship between the black community and white community is so fraught That can be triggered But but not by doing anything but by even success mean Tulsa was a great success story Everything you people say they want black americans to do today That was accomplished in in in in that period of time So it's a very emotionally and psychologically complicated relationship That can lead to um to gunfire and bloodshed Yep. Yep. Well, warranty You uh How I say treated me to be included In the screening of a film that you work very closely on with the team Uh, it was the remaking of victor hugo slay miserab but set In the outskirts of paris in france And I remember you did a beautiful introduction Most of the people were producers actors directors In the audience for that screening About three quarters of the way through the film The gentleman just jumped up and blurted out Why don't they make films this good in america? And everybody cheered. Yeah, but lay miss That that was a powerful powerful film and that was about the interface between law enforcement And the black population in france But boy did it it resonate with the kind of Which am I'll call contradictions that were forced to embrace in our country The movie in retrospect is prophetic I mean it just came out in in january Of this year at least in the united states. It was nominated for a camp award It actually won it won in the in france to say zarb, which is the equivalent of the oscar And as you as I think you agree it's brilliantly executed and so so so it's it's Those movies can be made anywhere, but you've got to have resources to finance those movies You and I have talked about projects. I would love to do in detroit which has similar kind of valence But raising money for those kinds of movies are very very difficult So the thing is the way america maintains It's it's It's it's it's called it. It's it's a racial and class ecology The way to maintain that is by making sure who gets access to racial resources to make production And so if you control that access then you can make sure Only certain kinds of stories to get told But but just because we only a chance to tell the stories does not mean we have no stories to tell That's right now I do remember in the In the aftermath of that screening You had a reception and I was talking to the gentleman who was the one of the lead actress who joined us that night Yeah, yes, and he was describing to me how What was so authentic? Was that many of the which I may call broad range of cast in younger people Were actually people they were not hired actors after some kind of you know Casting call or what have you they were actually residents Of the region. Yes. They so on film. They were living the truth of how they lived And that was a very I just It just made me tingle to watch that film. Yeah, and I've seen it now three times. Oh good. Good. Good. Good. And Man now for any of your listeners who have amazon prime That's right. It's a currently play. It's you can see for yourself and I think you guys who's listening will may agree should probably agree that this is For me, you know, I'm I've been organizing black filmmakers for over 40 years This is the most amazing film I've seen in those 40 years Yeah I remember you said it at the time and I don't think anybody walked out of the theater that night disagreeing with you But there was it was something and even even that lead actor I can remember his name right now who I was talking with He felt overcome by the magic Of what transpired in that film. Yeah Yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah, because I mean again if if a filmmaker becomes a medium becomes a bridge to bring A a a a frame of reality Because see we all of us is it's you know, we live we walk the streets We see things but but a filmmaker can frame it in a way to say, oh This is what's going on. Yeah And so I think that our Challenges artists to figure out how do I frame what you see every day in a way to make you see it in a way that gives you insight and meaning And that filmmaker's name is largely based in Paris He did just that he took the day-to-day reality of blacks and the Arabs And and outside of outside of Paris the suburbs and framed it in a way that oh We now understand How it goes and it wasn't one dimensional. It was no good guys bad guys. Everybody was complicated And that's also why it had such power, you know, it's uh, the human condition is just really so so complicated And uh, it's no easy answers That's right and I'm gonna build a bridge here But the scene in that film That touched me Was when the black member of the police force Went home to see his mother. Oh, yes. Yes. Yes And talk about talk about the role of mama You shared you shared with me some graffiti today about george floyd And and what what was the saying? On that graffiti that you showed me from instagram. He says when he called chris mama all mamas were called Yes yes So at that at that point at the pivot point at the place In that film and I don't want to give too much away. I want everybody to watch it Mama played a role Absolutely just as Mama played just as mama played a role In the movie we just saw over nine minutes. That's right. That's drove us all crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah And and when you get it right, you get it right. I mean, I I know when I saw it I called up the the head of amazon. I said, listen I've been in business for a long time and I don't know if you know what you got But I know what you got and I'm going to volunteer my services for your charge They help you get the word out and they were like surprised and pleased. It's okay. Fine. We You know, we'll book the room. We'll pay for it And then I called you and I called all the people who are who are interested in social justice But that they work behind the camera or in front of the camera or in finance music, et cetera So it was an eclectic room a multicultural eclectic room of like-minded people who I knew Yeah, I sat with I sat with rachad robinson from color change at the film And I I lost it next to rachad because he's very expressive. Oh, yeah And it was one moment of film. I thought he was going to jump up, you know, because it was just so powerful That's right. He's got his heart on his sleeve for sure Absolutely in a beautiful beautiful way. There's it's not self-indulgence. It's radiance Yep, but So let's let's talk a little bit about where A person like you A filmmaker in this case we're talking In Les Mis you're talking about you seeing something someone else did and running it up the flagpole with your relationships to make sure it got The attention it deserved But what what what kind of things are you envisioning making? now What what's been what's been in your poly plan for some time you mentioned the project in detroit that we discussed but What what do you what are you planning to say to the world through your own work in this next period? Well, I mean it's pretty much a I mean my my my Statement my insight the thing I'm not sure that hasn't been unchanged. I mean I started Make film in the 70s and I I was in college in the 70s and and the the The meal you I mean when I was the freshman Bobby Sear was on trial Two blocks from where my dorm was And the Black Panther Party was very strong in New Haven, Connecticut And so I came to a consciousness at a time with tremendous Breaking of the frame of the American lie And so with so many active speakers or super articulate aggressive people who said no, no, no, no We just know how it really works. So I had to benefit Are having those voices and it's the young person here in those articulate voices saying this is how America really works So when I became a filmmaker, I said, okay, let me bring those artistic skills to advance those points of view in in a way that's dramatic and engaging so That hasn't changed But what has changed is that the some some technology has changed most recently And this I mean I say I mean like a day ago. I realized that the the social distancing means even if I get money right now to do my other projects I couldn't do them because it's not safe There's there's there's no treatment. There's no vaccine. It's we in a very we in a shutdown period So I've been doing investigation because that once before I did a project on which called VR, which is virtual reality And that you can do with social distancing and computer animation and and a whole bunch of new So I've turned my attention to that space on an interim basis and when you Talk about how technology has changed It's not everybody going to the theater anymore In fact, I tell you it's it's uh, yeah well One sobering note is amc theater Which one of the largest theater chains in america? Is uh, it's in it's doing banks bankruptcy protection. I saw that Yeah, they were a big uplift to the theatrical release of amazing grace that I worked on Which by the way Let me let me let me one more one more time Thank you for resturing that movie because that movie is so unbelievably powerful And if you had not intervened and and and and got the resources and and into release That we've never never we have me have never seen that magic because it's nothing don't we describe that amazing grace is about magic And and from scene to scene to scene moment to moment. It's just like it's just incredible just incredible Yeah, I mean you watch aretha for 90 minutes And she she doesn't she doesn't say three words But she's in total command and everybody understands. Yes. Yes. Yeah, and there's I I watched her as I was getting ready for the negotiations with her and her family While she was still alive. I I went up to, uh, kipsey, new york one night. I think it was march 12th of 2017 People had told me her cancer had gone into remission She was enthusiastic and my friend alan light who I think you know that writes for the new york times and rolling stone Was sitting next to me and he says i've seen her many many times I wasn't prepared for this and I looked at him and I said is she a person or an angel? Wow, I just can't I can't Not feel she was an angel and that experience in 1972 In that church in los angeles with james cleveland and a choir and a congregation And that wonderful band. Yes. She she was like an angel for sure. She just so it beyond and beyond and beyond I mean anybody doesn't believe in the holy spirit. I'm gonna give them that movie and then we'll talk about it That's right. That's right. We'll talk about that's proof positive proof positive and in the theater in the theater in queens Uh, we showed it a whisper that uh, that's right. I mean people were like just Touched you I mean it's just undeniable You know, you don't have to believe just be able to feel That's it. That's it And I think the uh, how I say The gifts the craftsmanship the hard work The rehearsals and the insight That aretha had to go back to her roots After she's already a star in soul and crossover and making big money for atlantic Right and go but to go into that place And just flow Like she did Oh, as a preacher said she really never left That's right That's right so Music today What are you listening to what what's coming out? What do you what do you go? See your music, you know your playlists or your lps. What what are you pulling out? I know uh, westerly morse Who I knew from the aretha project the new york times just brought forward The old herald melvin in the blue notes song sung by patty labelle If you don't know me by now, never never know me. That's right And everybody's crying that listen to that song right now. That's right. That's right. I mean I I'm I'm I'm in a bind now because I'm trying to stay open to new sounds But the music of my generation is so unbelievably rich That I use I go I I come as retreat into the sounds of the 60s and 70s and 80s because it's medicinal And and you can listen whatever's going on in your life. There's a song Where some artist has has has composed and performed and and and it gives you that exorcism and and so music for me is is uh Is is is that kind of medicinal therapeutic experience? And um, this literally is nothing Whether it be whether it be uh, uh a a ballad or something up temple I mean, you know music is healing period. No other way to describe it That's right. I've been listening to a song and I I had no idea why As after the lockdown started and and I was not historically a big fan of the band you too But one of the early songs is called 40 after Psalm 40 from the bible and the second verse says He set my feet upon a rock and made my footsteps firm Many will see many will see and hear I will sing Sing a new song. I will sing sing a new song How long to sing this song? And I think that's where I'm feeling with the shattering of the Defense of conventional wisdom with the amount of distress that's been revealed with the chaos and the yearning for order What's the new song? We got to sing a new song. Yeah. Yeah And and and and some clue for the new song will rely on some of the old songs mean When faced with this kind of tremendous adversity how often think about jimmy clever singing too many rivers across I mean, it's it's you know Only my faithful carry me on, you know, it's this um, yeah Yeah, well, I've been listening to john coltrane's alabama I've been listening to bob marley stand up get up. Oh, yeah Redemption song that's right the man's to page yourself from mental slavery. Sure only you can free your mind Exodus Yeah All of these things all of these things resonate with where we are You know in many ways I it is the musicians and the singers As as the featured artists have been so forehead of the other people the other art forms I mean with notable exceptions. I mean, maybe August Wilson as a as a playwright is a it's an early again and and and And a couple other filmmakers, but but overall mean the musicians are just They're just at the point, you know, they are like they get it and they and they sing it and perform in a way that Oh, yeah, everybody connects with it Yeah well at some level Which am I called they're tapped into the electricity of emotion Yeah, yes and at some level they're they're The best both poets and and artists are are prescient. They can they can feel it before we can see it. Yeah Yeah, yeah, but I think I think yes. Yes, but in this is that if we I mean my office my office film if I could truly understand How and why they do this how and what they do then I can translate that into cinema and and meaning I mean many ways if you if you Listen close to the musicians. It gives you all the clues you need for you as a as a as a as a filmmaker So I try to In fact, when I write my screenplays, I always have some music on the background And gives you my my my cues and my clues Yeah Yeah, it's like a catalytic Yeah, yeah Or you said earlier it's the holy ghost Yeah Yeah, well, you know, it's a very interesting uh I have a friend who's a poet. I think you and I've discussed ed pavlik who Wrote a book about the inspiration of james baldwin And baldwin Was this fascinating man Who I guess I would have described early in his early years as almost like a jujitsu stiletto Essay fighter. Okay. He was he was as lucid and sharp He could win any debate. Yeah He was brilliant, but he had a Epiphany Listening to a song by aretha franklin. Whoa from the album aretha arrives called. I wonder And in that he Basically came out and he said She In that song speaks to the people and the person at the same time Wow, meaning he was speaking to the crowd about the context But he wasn't reaching the heart Yeah So he went to his friend whose name was ray charles And they composed something together called the hallelujah chorus that was premiered At the opening night of the newport jazz festival, which used to be at carnage hall in new york before they went out to newport right on And they did something together Which is they had the same story And baldwin did it as spoken word essay And ray charles did it elliptically and poetically through music and lyrics and symbolism and sound Wow And the critics hated baldwin and they loved ray charles and they both knew they had exactly the same message And so That transformation Into the poetic style Was a big part of baldwin now there there's some work that pavelik has done subsequently Where he followed some correspondence Over over 30 years between baldwin and his brother Uh whose name was david i think james was the oldest and this was the next oldest sibling And he used to describe That there were many James baldwints The first of which was james baldwin the essayist we've been talking about The second was jimmy baldwin the black gay man who had a we might say an undercover social life And The third was what he called jamey baldwin Which was this beautiful member of a family who wanted to make everybody proud through whatever he did But the fourth one Was i don't remember the phrase but it was something like The unnamed persona That goes Into seclusion And asks to receive inspiration And the other three Nourishments from family From social and love life And from community engagement and purpose Have to be Lifting his spirit to where he can be receptive To those signals In fact, it's the most beautiful characterization of the creative process. I've ever been exposed to yeah. Yeah, but but it sounded to you I I wasn't even thinking about that when when you and I Got on the uh on the call here, but you you brought it out of me A recollection from yours for in the way you described your process. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, in fact, it's something. Um Uh another uh point of entry but uh, Things always Wilson was quoted and how he'll sit at the desk And and and the character will walk in the room And start talking to him And so he The character is his guide his narrator And I really believe that that that that that level of art When when you move beyond artifice when you really are channeling The story that must be told there's other forces that guide you And the same way that if it's it's it's it's the same way there's in the Pentecostal Church's moment of religious ecstasy or Or in the in the Brazilian condom play or I mean There are moments in which You are in touch What with the unseen forces that that tell you why you're here and what you need to do Yeah, and the artists who can listen will be Very very, uh Create powerful work When you talk about channeling it always takes me back to Watching Audra McDonald When she played billy holiday And that wonderful play about uh at the emerson grill Ladyday at the emerson barn grill And uh, I just I watched her and I felt like She was just Showing me billy. Yeah. Yeah. There was there was no actress. She was a conduit and it was a brilliant brilliant performance so the uh the politics of right now This is this is what you might call I mean you you said it very well in the beginning Of our conversation you you said that in essence This has been here Yeah, and and the difference is that that people are looking in the mirror and don't like what they see But but what's been going on is like when you It's like when if you've been overeating for the last few years Who how how did that happen? No, you've been doing it. You just haven't seen yourself. You haven't had that reflection so in fact, uh You showed me that extraordinary t-shirt and and and and relief was always incredible faces But it was like I was dozens and dozens of faces. So clearly mean Brother George Floyd is the latest and and gruesomeness example, but these things unfortunately Have been consistent Yeah, I mean what we can hope is he's the straw that broke the camel's back And yeah leads to leads to change but but but but you got to be you got to be skeptical You can but you can hope just just that we had to start with I think that here's the thing As long as we think that something's wrong Then that's what we we're disadvantaged. We got to say why this has happened. Let's address why if we treat this as something unusual this This misconduct is there for a reason the police department Historically grew out of out of slave patrols and slave catchers The relation of police and black people was always as a as an oppressive abusive occupying force So so of course they act like this it makes sense And and so and so until we until we acknowledge why this is happening We'll be a disadvantage to trying to fix it Yeah And and also it's gonna be a problem because when you begin to figure out if the solution Requires a loss of white privilege Then then it's gonna be a real test You know, I mean the woman in central park She said how dare this guy speak to her about her dog off the leash And she was genuinely. Oh, yeah, she was really offended that he didn't know his place And he was and he spoke to her and he was you can see on the tape He was very calm, you know, but she was I mean I'm just recognizing that that she I'm sure Though she was being reasonable So there's there's there's a set of of circumstances and a mindset where she felt comfortable with doing that And therefore she made that phone call and pushed those buttons To have the police come and put him to his in his place or or else you know take his life Yeah, yeah, and the idea That a person however Uncomfortable or scared or whatever could resort to that tool Tells you About that social system that we are yes, and you used to a resort. I wouldn't say resort. She went there quickly You know, I mean he it was like he was approaching her He was telling her please don't approach me This is something she was she was she felt His his his speaking to her that way wasn't it was an encroachment on her privilege And she was put them it's not unlike, um, I mean you go back to the the embattled thing I mean the woman lied about him bustling at her It's always it's it's that it's that white america at their fingertips has a trigger To always put this take take the black people out and they use it when they have it a bad day. Let's just kill him And so who knows what she may have been having a bad day about something to nothing to do with that man But him thinking to her Excerting his rights was offensive to her and that's that's the overall issue I mean if you look at the police situations Is they always talk about cooperating obey I mean the violence I see and all my obvious instagram fees I collect is always police saying you need to Kneel down put your hands up do this and if you don't immediately submit Then all kind of body harm can flow to you And there's a there's a a entitlement A white racist Entitlement to make black bodies and brown bodies and yellow bodies submit and when they don't They do harm to them So it's come down to something very simple and psychological like that if you don't submit You have consequences And then But I guess what I was trying to say was that woman couldn't have invoked that Unless she believed That it was available absolutely And she was and that's and you know, yeah, that that's right. She she codified She validated what you said and and fortunately he was small enough To to leave leave the scene because when police came he wasn't there anymore Right, I mean because he could have misplayed his hand too. He was very calm. He recorded everything He spoke in a mutilated tone. I mean he could have been as angry as her and he may be dead right now Yeah Yeah So it's here. It's been here. Yeah But i'm thinking of jimmy hindricks via bob dillon There must be some kind of way out of here said the joker to the thief. There's too much confusion I can't get no relief. Yeah, right Businessmen they drink my wine plowman dig my earth None were level on the mind Nobody up at his word How are we gonna change? How are we gonna change And the contours and and how are we gonna break out of this system that you're right has had Z humanizing effects on everybody whether they acknowledge it or not Born by the black people, but you are not a human if you're if you're If you're abiding by that system as though it were legitimate that's something ugly about you So so so the only thing I would I would insert into that is that How we do it has to be preceded about why this thing exists If we don't first start why this this this is this is not um, this is not something that doesn't come out it didn't come We there's a reason why america operates where it does And until we first start with that, I don't think I'm not optimistic about progress Yeah Well, I'm a doctor's son. So diagnosis has to has to uh proceed remedy and prescription. There you go. There you go And if you don't diagnose probably you're not fighting the disease precisely, right? Yeah And again, I mean the system System is the system doesn't fill people who the system was not built to protect In in your reading In your thinking about the history of we've talked about music, but The people the malcom X Dr. Martin Luther King Old negro spirituals Where do you find inspiration? well, um When I was 16 Fred Hampton had a black panther party in chicago And I was in east St. Louis, Illinois, which is down safe in chicago and I was just impressed by this guy He was just a young charismatic guy And I told my parents I want to go to chicago and join the black panther party And my father said you're 16 years old Under my roof and you're not going anyway and I kicked and screamed the holler, you know And but I you know, he's he's the ball. So I didn't go And the next morning he walked in my room through the paper new headline was friend Hampton was murdered He said, I see I told you And and he was right About the danger, but I was right that this young man, you know in his 20s in chicago was so potent That the police felt the need to assassinate him And so I have always been struck by the presence of Men and women Who have such heroic power who have such tremendous charisma? Who are such great articulators that they can stand up fight back and inspire others? So and some of them are straight up organized like friend Hampton Others are artists like Catherine Dunham Harry Belafonte In my life, I've solved these people and I've been blessed because some of them accepted me as their mentor as their mentees specifically Catherine Dunham and Belafonte has been my been my mentor And and and and loved them people just guided me and so I just simply tried to um Be a good student and apply the apply the lessons Well, you've had some Beautiful teachers Harry Belafonte. I just watched that film that susan rostock made sing your song extraordinary extraordinary Yeah, and she was talking to me a couple years ago about Wanted to make another film about his work in the prisons And through his guidance my my wife Alexis knows Harry Belafonte and his daughter and a couple of their staff And he and some people at the open society foundation got me set up to go visit zing zing for a day or two And uh, boy, that was a profound experience Well, what I would say my best friend in life. Unfortunately, he's along with us He was uh, worked for foster care and he and he would often you know deal with because foster care is going in Unfortunately often cycle in our prisons So I he's my friend because we met in in the martial arts school And we were like, you know, they're called dojo brothers, you know people who train martial arts together And he would go speak in the juvenile juvenile detention And he said he told me straight he would come in and and to talk Go out to bring him into the room and everybody would like not pay attention be loud and disrespectful And so he saw he couldn't get any attention. So he told the guard to listen you you you guys can leave And he's like what he said no no no go ahead leave go ahead leave And in the inmates these again these juveniles now adults they like damn The guards left left in him by by yourself He said yeah, I did because you guys are obviously not paying any attention to me because you think I'm a punk and I can't fight Well, they're not here now. This is me and you so let me so let's let's let's have a conversation before we talk If anybody here thinks they can beat me Let's do that right now And nobody moves because they And it's just a gentleman. I met that night before the aretha He passed he passed it some years ago Oh, okay We had another martial arts friend that was there that night. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I That's the two I word I walk in two worlds man. I walk in a in the The activist world and I walk in a martial art world and there's sometimes the overlap but this guy man And and then everybody's everybody pay attention. Oh, okay So so with there are certain states of mind To reach a young person who's in that state of violence Then you have to you know, you know because everybody's afraid of them And once you say, oh, I'm not afraid of you And then they then they would then they would give you their attention And better fonti has a similar not about it's gonna fight anybody but better fonti is fearless He's faced all kinds of threat and violence. So having done that He's able to command attention Yeah Yeah And there's a there's a regal ness. There's an aura about him Even when I've been to fundraisers where he's speaking or one night he and cornell west and myself and some people were affiliated with the Union theological seminary and as everybody was talking this and that and then when he started to speak Yeah, you could hear a pin drop the focus was complete No, he's he's he's That he's uh, he doesn't have any he isn't he's peerless. He's he's peerless Yeah Yeah my Detroit Franklin family Connection tells me that he used to team with aretha and hold conference concerts together To support martin luther king I did not know that wow That they they actually bailed on him. What it bailed him out of what would have been a bankruptcy one or two times Wow, wow And wreath also provided the money to angela davis when she Needed to get bail to get out of prison before her trial. Yeah, but uh, but but harry bellifante has been there from From the beginning of Of his life and uh A tremendous And risk and jeffrey's You know, um, I had to publish he invited me to um to a party at his house And I I may have been the youngest those Me and walked the most they were probably youngest guys in the room. Wow, and we were not young But everybody else everybody else was in there in the 70s ladies And and the cat from them there and she was in her 90s And I sat next to oxy davis and ruby d And and bellifante they were telling stories about the freedom rides And these were harrowing terrifying stories. But in the blue tradition, they were funny And they know the story about how, uh, uh, uh, oxy davis who's from the south knew about the south and knew how to navigate the south Was his his his his colleagues was was bellifante and portier who were both You know Caribbean guys who didn't know the south And one day they overslept And they woke up and the bus had pulled away So you had these two guys who in new york Caribbean guys Panicking because the buses left them And oxy davis thought that was the funniest thing ever and they were just cracking up No, it's like laughing at the terror of that moment. Yeah well, you know, uh The great theologian the late james cone Wrote a book called the spirituals and the blues. Oh, yeah And he said the spirituals Are time when you know you're in chains And you're singing about the afterlife He said but the blues which really are in the jim crow era Are people who are allegedly free who are not free And what you do Is you use code and humor? To create defiance in the here and now You laugh you laugh at your fear You speak in code in defiance I mean I made a I made a record with a gentleman named willy king who was a fantastic blues artist and He had a song called the boss man and the baby And he told me that what he was really singing about was that when you're In those days in the juke joint And the boss man comes in with his security people to watch You sing about my baby's hurting me my baby's hurting me and the boss man Maybe he had you know some pain in his Marital relationship or whatever and he'd be starting to nod But everybody in the room knew you were talking about the boss man in code. You weren't talking about the baby Absolutely, absolutely. So that that defiance In those dangerous circumstances Sometimes involves a lot of humor and a lot of laughter But it's it's deadly serious. I agree. But but I would also those things I also give blues another kind of elevated status Where it becomes philosophical and spiritual and it's but it but it's it's not um It's it it's spiritual as it's something like an existential statement And that why and the difference for me between gospel and blues is that and in the gospel There is there's a salvation There's you know, jesus is going to intervene jesus is going to redeem you jesus is going to save you and the blues You just say that, you know, it just it is what it is and it's no way out And you trapped and you call But just but it's no need to fall apart. You go ahead and turn it into art and for me Blues is existentialist existentialist expression and for me, that's even more powerful because there's no Resolution, there's no escape. There's no redemption. It's just you as human being Staring into the abyss That's right You're talking to a guy named robert johnson. So I can't disagree with Ha ha ha Yeah, well, you know the uh, you'd mentioned earlier freddy hampton and I had a conversation on this podcast a couple weeks ago with isaiah thomas the nba star legend from From the detroit pistons who grew up in chicago in his mother mary He's got a a charity in her honor called mary's court She was an activist but she worked in chicago with freddy hampton Yeah, yeah, and he described that in our in our session. I hope people will step back and how you say retouch with with isaiah's beautiful beautiful representation of of his approach to life and I think I named that session strength through vulnerability That he's he's got a really quiet warmth about him, but freddy hampton was a a big symbol a big A beacon in his life and and think about what he did I mean Chicago like like many cities that time was ganged with you had the black stone rangers You had this group and that group And they were all basically pathological destroying each other and so he from my understanding he called a meeting And everybody came to all the different gangs came to the big meeting He was all in the same room all feeling hostile and uh fred The head is head is panthers like okay. They locked the doors. It's okay And we're not nobody's even he said we to we reach a piece of peace agreement And they were shocked But the panthers were all armed So like oh you in the room now and they got guns and we don't And but basically he wasn't trying to he wasn't using Threat to intimidate He was trying using threats to get your attention to focus to hear he has to say And he was personally insightful and charismatic So the guys say yeah, yeah, you're making sense. You're making sense. So he brought peace to a war community that was at war with itself And that's why the police had to assassinate him because that's what they fear more than anything else Yeah, they couldn't divide and conquer as easily with his cohesive presence Yeah Yeah, ma'am So you're seeing A whole lot of turmoil It's not surprising. Yep. What does surprise you right now? I'm surprised that that the echo of this has reached the other side of the world when I see New Zealand respond That's literally the other side of the world And I saw this morning the but there was a uh a statue in in in the UK of a slave Trader and they put a rope around it and put it off the pedestal and dropped it into the river I mean the the international echoes. I must say that does surprise me I do and I do Experience attention in the contrast While we have activism here and we're talking about, you know another surprise Restructuring dismantling and restructuring the Minnesota police department These are actions that are are Almost unprecedented as a reaction for sure But but what I'm seeing Those structural things here I had a call with a friend this morning. We said why are people Honoring these people like heroes all over the world, but not here We need a memorial service for all the pictures Yeah, all the people in that hero's picture. Yes. Yes George fully. Yeah, where where is the memorial? For the unnecessary brutal loss Is is the question but it's beautiful to see it elsewhere. Even so it is a pleasant surprise But but the most beautiful thing for me Is the fact that city council of Minneapolis voted to to replace The police department with public safety office and and uh, there's a Congressman I'm sorry. He's pronounce his name. He's uh, california South k south asian brother. Anyway, he He is into the language to to There's such with some kind of immunity clause in most police contracts That allow them to really not be held accountable I mean if we can simply get the police contracts renegotiated Or never signed again with that kind of language that allows them to To to be abusive and get away with it. Then you'll see changes I mean if I know that I could kill you and and I can walk away with you then I would hesitate to kill I mean people need consequences and the police unions protect the police officers from consequences And and it's really it helps the individual bad people, but it hurts everybody because now genuine People who who are responsible or looked at a scans because they would they would they would basically I organized crime ring Well, at some level, I think we all agree that law enforcement Is a necessary part of a social structure. Sure. What the nature Of how law enforcement is conducted Is a human institution and it can take a lot of different forms between Which might call representing the public good on the positive side of the pendulum And this vigilante hideousness that's How they say been quite present particularly in black communities and it's different from the other law and justice Those are two things that only occasionally overlap But you're right When you talk about what you know, what what are the green shoots? What's blossoming? That that decision in minnesota sets a precedent. Yeah, it makes it reasonable for other communities To consider similar. Yeah, exactly. Because no one wants to be heard, but everybody's lying to be stuck Yeah Yeah, and I do think this is important because after watching the The president of the united states Discussion or not watching listening to the leak tapes of the president's discussion with 50 governors. Yes The idea that you got to go crack some heads, etc. And that's going to mobilize popularity we I don't care if you're a republican or democrat. I worked in both parties in the u.s senate in my earlier years You just can't talk as though Being monstrous is okay in any circumstance. Exactly Yep and how would I say The better angels Emerged in minneapolis on that day that you describe And and hopefully we get the follow-through and hopefully we we see that as starting a precedent and a momentum I have friends who actually Have spent time in law enforcement in the uk And they tell me they'd be terrified to be A police officer in the united states Well, partly because the culture is so weaponized. Yes. Yes. Yes And partly because they don't want to use the gun on somebody and then have to live with themselves the rest of their life And also, I mean, as you know, I practice martial arts all my life and the The fact they reach for the gun so quickly They're any kind of serious martial art training. You don't need to do that I mean, it's like I just don't understand why you can Uh control our situation without lethal without lethal violence Yeah well, warrington it's always fascinating Illuminating your you're like the reggie jackson Of my podcast the straw that stirs the drink Well, I this I'm happy to be I'm happy to contribute because What you've been doing all your life and and particularly in and in art politics Economics and music and science. I mean, I have much respect. So I thank you for allowing me to be part of this Well, all I'm gonna say is thank you and let's wait Watch how the world evolves Keep working together on projects related to film and the like. Yes Talk more about the Detroit Possibilities, absolutely, which you know has my heart. That's right. And and then Let's come back and do another podcast After we've seen the world turn a few times. I am standing by I'm ready to go Great. Thank you again. Thank you. Bye. Bye and check out more from the institute for new economic thinking at inet economics.org