 So, hi everyone, and welcome to almost the last session in the Dutton-Sanford Conference. Thank you for coming, and I know that Ben is taking his own, and that sounds really awesome, but thank you for coming to this one. This is not a Drupal technical talk specifically. This is a planning and UX talk, and it's the kind of work that you might do before you start actually building the project. And it talks about personas. So, I'm Philly. I work at a company called Wee for a small, agency, pretty content-first project. Sometimes Drupal-Sanford, sometimes not. We're really focused on UX and content strategy, and that's my focus. So, this talk today is about personas. So, how many of you people in the audience today have personally made a persona? How many people have encountered a persona in a project and didn't make it themselves? Thank you. And who has been confused by the purpose of a persona, whether you are making it or just doing it or not? Sorry? Yeah. So, this talk is about that problem. Like, why do we have these personas? What actually are they? And, in fact, what do we even mean when we talk about personas? So, I came across this problem when I was working on a few projects where people were talking about personas, and I realized that we weren't actually talking about the same thing. Like, they were saying persona, and I was saying persona, but we were talking about something completely different. So, you know, I'd done some training, and I knew what I thought they were, so I went on over and listened to find out a bit more about them and about how they understood the system. So, if we look at the definition, we're told that a persona is the aspect of someone's character without putting any framework of design or marketing or anything like that. That's what the word persona means. It comes from this idea of a must. It's a must, sort of, from the dramatic arts that persona is the character that you might play. So, it's kind of relevant. It's kind of it, but it's kind of not... You get the feeling that when we're taking a body now, that's not really what I'm saying. So, what do other people mean? What are some of these other, sort of, confusing definitions that I like? From what I can tell, people are saying that maybe when I'm talking about what a persona is, they're saying it's a way to describe the behavior of a type of user I have assumed existed. Maybe it's a way to describe music groups that we've identified in our marketing. Maybe it's a way to describe a client or stakeholder who is giving us money. And maybe it's just a personal importance to have some opinions. So, what do we mean? Like, in terms of UX and strategy, what is this talk about? I'm really talking about persona as a summary of user research, and this is sort of the most important piece of the puzzle. It's a document presented in a simple format that's easily referenced and easily memorized. And it describes a person who represents a set of traits in a significant user type. And it has specific, measurable goals. So, this is for me, this is the definition of the UX persona, is what this talk is about. So, why do we actually make this? Yes, team. Yeah, I'd say user type. Maybe user type, I guess. I mean, really, the same is very common here. I guess that's the whole thing, is the word is used quite a lot. Yeah, but I don't think it's totally standardized. I think it's used a lot, but I don't think it's clear and clear. So, why do we make them? So, as I said before, we want to make them primarily to communicate findings in our user research. To remind us of our user's goals throughout the design and development process. To build empathy. To use the power of narrative. To inform further research and testing. And to help focus on solving real problems. And also to help other people understand different situations. So, at first, I want to talk about some common mistakes with personas. And I think it's a good way to guide where the time is. So, the first different persona mistake is that a persona might have been made for the right purpose. So, if you're a depression in the crowd who's inherited a persona, you might have inherited a marketing bio-personnel. And they've been given to you in your design process and development process. So, marketing or bio-personnel is a different, because they're focused on demographic information, buying motivations and constituents, shopping and buying processes, marketing message, media habits, and so forth. So, they usually pick them quickly because they've got ranges. Like, this person is 30 to 40 years old or 40 to 60 years old. And they might live in this region or this region. They're very much about trying to find a segment. They describe customer behaviour, but they don't get to the why behind it. So, this is a very big decision. And there tends to be not that use of solutions development, but they're very difficult. So, marketing people can help them. Yeah. So, this is a good example of a marketing behavior. You can see that Freda has started specific parts in this persona that says he's shopping in industry and news preferences. And it is at age range 45 to 55. So, he's useful for solving something. Whether he's useful for us trying to build something is a different question. So, maybe you've also inherited a prototype persona. A prototype persona comes from lean works. I think lean works is excellent. But the thing about prototype personas is they're made as exceptions before you've actually done it in your research. So, this is like us taking a note of this, making a hypothesis. So, prototype personas exist as this sort of shorthand, quick sketch, and they're fundamentally unvalidated. They haven't been tested with your people. They're just assumptions. So, they can be useful, but you do have to actually validate the results. So, this is the lean works book. If you are looking to get into UX thinking and, you know, when you start, I highly recommend this book. It's a really great way to get into it without sort of feeling like you have to invest into it. So, this is, in the prototype persona, it's four segments of the page which are just a piece of paper or folder. And it's got the picture of them and the key parts. And then we've got needs served by, and then at the end, it's talking about like, yeah, some more key parts about them. So, I'll talk a bit more about persona later personas, prototype personas later. But, yeah, the point is that this is exactly quite right, you know. It's close side, but it's all quite there. So, the other type of persona is this type of persona that we want to do, a regular size persona. So, the difference between this and the other ones is that we focus around goals and coming points and describing the behaviour. So, it's very much about, like, wants and needs and not too much about demographic. So, they're based on field research and real people. They aren't actually individual real people, but they're based on them. They describe the why behind what people do, not just what they do. And they help you remember that and you're going throughout the entire product development process. They're not just in the marketing stage. They're really good for communicating with researchers and they really help avoid the elastic user and so forth. So, that's the concept that sometimes if we take the best guess and we make it up and we think about who our user might be and we just invent a persona, we probably just can make someone who's a little bit like us and that ends up that we're designing something for people like us, rather than having that inclusive design for people who are like us, which is where we're going to go. So, this is an example of the Europe persona, a design persona. We've got sort of a narrative section and we've got their goals on the top right-hand corner we've got a bit of a metrics of the different preferences and we have a statement at the top about what is the main intentionally and what he wants to achieve. So, the second main problem that happens with personas is that the persona is the main. So, because personas are summaries, they're an artifact that comes out of the user research process. And this is probably what you're starting to think like, oh, I don't have time to use the research, I don't have budget for it. User research doesn't have to be an extensive, multi-weekly process. You could have used research then to meet five people for ten minutes and that would be enough for you to build some sort of insight about the product and the uses for your product or the project. Fundamentally, personas don't get made up by self-harmers. So, even if you're doing a project with a customer and you have the people who are paying you in that room with them and you want to talk about your personas, if you guys just sit around and do it without talking to actual users you're not doing a UX design or something like that, you're doing something else. They're an aggregate of the common types that emerge from user interviews and user research. So, we don't just meet one person and then take down the notes and put them up as a persona. We do this process where we talk to a few people and then the pattern that emerges we summarize that as persona. So, to do this, the first thing that we do is we make a hypothesis. So, we don't know the answer yet. We sort of have a gap. We take this and that hypothesis shouldn't be where it ends, it should be the start. So, once you've got your hypothesis, you can go about taking it to the next level. So, you're testing your hypothesis when you're talking to people, you think you're not necessarily testing it with them directly and asking them a question, but you're asking them questions about their experience. It helps you to understand if your hypothesis is right or wrong. And a lot of the times, you're right. Sometimes you know how to use this really well. A lot of the times, you're wrong. And you have to adjust. So, step three, you do other research. You do those five interviews. You can do all sorts of things. You can do focus groups, surveys, data analysis. Maybe you look at existing work that's been done. Maybe you talk to some stakeholders as well. But all of these come together in a really safe place. And then, step four is the synthesized and analyzed in the department. So, the whole point of this, I know that this looks like you asked for this whole step from the wall. But the idea is that when you do this research, you get a lot of information. And it's really easy for you to privilege that information that you haven't experienced. So, by putting it up on the wall and grouping it, you get to start seeing maybe things that you forgot about or maybe things that didn't stand out at the time. And then you can see those patterns. So, once you've got the information synthesized, you can start collating it. So, you can start to pull out the key metrics. This is the new project that I did to visit the fake project about improving my key and out of the people that I talked to, the key metrics that came out were like about how often do they use it, what type of way do they use it, do they care about their privacy, do they use the internet to recharge it, and are they confused by it or do they understand it. And all of those letters on the left are all the different people that I talked to rated on their scales. And then on the left side, you can see that there are groups that are not metric. And then on the right, those groups have been collapsed down into one point and that becomes my persona. So that persona becomes an aggregate of the people that I talked to, the main patterns that emerge from them. So, the point is that you have to start with the users. Talking to real users reveals these tiny little elements of their stories that you can't just imagine that. So, one of the... This isn't a talk about user research, is to say to someone, tell me about the last time you did this. And that, rather than saying, do you like this? Or should you change this? Or what do you think of this? Or, you know, what's your problem with this? You actually just ask them to describe their experience. And as they go through that story, they're answering their questions all the way. They're just not answering them directly. But they're also giving you this extra little bit of information that may end up actually giving you more information directly. So, you don't always understand everyone's needs. You don't know every person. You haven't had every person's experience. So, this allows us to get back to the picture. It also is really important to stay humble, and accept that you just don't have to solve every single problem, and you don't know everyone's perspective. So, sometimes I find that, you know, the people who are a bit unsure of what to do with the user research have a real sense that they already know the problem. I already get it. So, stepping back and sort of taking that humble approach and being like, I don't know how to solve this, even if you think that you have that view, that humanity allows you to really get that real user perspective. So, we want to step into that beginner's mind, and that will allow us to be open to designing people who are just people like us. The third problem that I see a lot is that a persona is too specific. So, we want to be specific to everything a persona designed, but we want to be specific about the right things. So, I can write, like, an epic story about Simon's journey, but I need to make sure that I'm writing about the right parts of his journey. That will actually help me do this project. So, the question says, does this information help answer design questions for a group of users? So, if we've just gone overboard with Simon's journey, about we really ate the breakfast, and how long it didn't get worked, and I'm actually just making, you know, like a closed-setting website or something, I'd be specific, but it's not that helpful. I mean, it tends to actually distract from the whole purpose of a persona. If you wanted the people who put behind it and to say that they were confused about what the purpose of a persona is, you might have received something that was like, I don't know how this works, and that could just be the specific information as well. So, let's say we're designing a website so we want to be specific about the right things. So, like, what do users of this website want to achieve? Who can help you? What is someone who wants to use the people's site website? What do they want to do? By ticket? So, we should see if it's different? Anything else? Final location? Cool. So, this is stuff that we want to write and understand. These are the users' goals. What problems do they want to solve? What problems could you be having? What about... Right. Is this right for me? Do I even want to go? Yeah. Cool. Yeah, is it right for myself? Um, should I take this? Um, and then we want to, you know, we do these interviews with some things like, what are the recurring things? They're like, I don't know all of you, but maybe there are things about you that are similar. So, maybe you work in similar industries. Maybe, um, you're in similar areas. Maybe you do similar types of jobs that I ignore you about until I start speaking to some people. So, that will, that will happen in your marriage. Also, what specific things about them are similar jobs? So, like, you know, what are their, out of these pain points, what specific ones do they want to tackle? So, everyone might have the same problem that, like, they're a bit confused about what they believe, but we don't want to talk about it with this project. So, we choose the projects that we actually want to tackle, and that becomes quite about this project. We're going to want to be talking about the wrong things. We're going to be specifically about the wrong things. Like, it doesn't really matter how old our users are. Maybe it's more effective to know their level of computer value. Does it really matter what media they consume? Maybe it'd be more effective to know the device level. Maybe it's more relevant, um, similar, you know, rather than their age, maybe it's, maybe we're going to look at your other senior. So, in that sense, to the new budget, maybe that kind of thing is more relevant for solving the problems that we chose to solve. So, you often get these personas that just have, like, sort of, irrelevant information, and it really distracts you in the process. So, fundamentally, it's all about projects. So, what you're building is really, the goal of the project, it always comes back to that. So, what you're specifically about comes back to that goal. So, yes, adding details of the person's life, and then, you know, their dog and their car might make them seem more relatable, and seem more real, and that's it, that's true. But, you really want to ask yourself how could this piece of information be relevant to the project, and why do I need to put it there for this perspective? Because we don't have all the time in the world to make these things. We just want to make them effective for the project that we're currently in. The flip side is the other problem that the persona needs to take. So, this is the persona I'm in. He's not. He is a human being. He's between age 20 and 60. Right now, I think he has two thumbs. He wants to drink beer and have fun. Also, he likes sports. This is a quick tip that I can never tell whether that's what it is. Like, he's not useful for anyone. He's literally almost everyone. The fact that I even called him my... He's everyone. He's every person. So, you know, I've had, for some reason, and I'm not really sure what to do with it, because it doesn't help me do anything. You can kind of see how these personas need to be tailored to the project that you're working on. If you have a persona from the last website you go, okay, I'll re-use it. There's probably something right there. So, you've got a golden rock situation, but don't be too specific. Don't be too genuine. One of the main things, you want to remember that there's three facts if you keep going back to, like, how old are they? Where do they live? What junior are they with? All this stuff. That could be really, like, distracting you from the goal of what you're doing. And ask yourself, like, who does this person not represent? Like, if we want to make a very broad website, that is definitely a thing. A lot of us work with government websites. That we do have to, you know, have multiple audiences. But we still narrow it down enough to make it a significant easy book. And remember that if you get a template or something online, or from a different project, it just might not be right for this project. You have to really take that contextual approach and figure out what it's right for this specific goal. And don't design for the lowest committee whenever, because it usually doesn't work out that way. You can't please all the people all the time as they do what they want to do. Another problem, number 5 of 7, is that persona is too static. And this might be a bit sort of counter to how you use personas. You might have one from the wall, if that's it. But if you're doing sort of the kind of approach that's becoming more popular, where we're iterating, building, measuring, learning, constantly going around this cycle and updating, creating more research into the process, it can be really then, you know, they do more research and they're never updated. And then we started to have developers using it and it's not relevant anymore because small information came into the lead. So what we do is be hypothesized and we observe, we do this research and then we update the persona. We can continue to do that process throughout the project. There's no reason why that has to stop. Especially when it doesn't take very long to do. So if throughout the course of the project something changes, you don't want to just leave this as being outdated. You'll just confuse people. So we want to make sure that it's expressed. So that photo persona structure is a really good way to think about how you might want to start with something and then update it and then we continue to work with it. So we start with this sketch in the mini-bio. You've got their plans and gains, behaviors and relevant key factors. This is really easy to do. Like you can do this at the start of your next project and then as you go through and you find out more information about your users, you're going to learn more relevant things. And that means that you have to be validating it. So if that one is wrong and you do your usual interview and it turns out you were wrong, that's it. It's wrong. Start again. Do a different one. You don't have to do a process about it. And one of the greatest things about doing this kind of work is you don't actually have to be an amazing photosite genius to make it personal. You can do it on a piece of paper and it can sort of be very useful. And that leaves me to number six, which is that the persona is too beautiful for this world. You really want to make sure that your persona is real to some extent. Like it's not an actual person, but it needs to be real. So using a photo of a real person, even if the person is not exactly them, that allows us to really build a bit more empathy. So stock photos encourage us to pretend that users two made up or two out there, they would never really think that. That's not what people actually like. And, you know, you might have got this lots of stock photo, but whether it actually inspires that sort of conversation about someone's name is a different question. So images of real people, with great empathy, and are force us, and they force us to take people's names when what they're saying. Nobody really believes that Becce is a real person, right? She's obviously a stock photo. She looks way too shabby. And I just don't really... I don't look at that and I'm like, I don't look at Becce before. I know who she is. Like, nah. Like, she's from Deadly Images. It doesn't matter. But someone like Marie, I'm like... Yeah, I've met a Marie before. Like, Marie's like a friend of mine. Like, I know what her life is like. I know what kind of things she wants. I know what she might be like to talk to. Like, I have no idea what it would be like to talk to Becce. You're kind of like a weird robot. But Marie is like, she's real. And this is what we're doing with Becce. These documents are meant for purposes like sparking conversation and getting us talking about people's needs and their goals. So that empathy is a super important piece of the puzzle. So don't spend hours also making this persona in Photoshop. Like, stuff is actually really okay. When you get it, you're a designer. But is that useful? Can I reference it? Does it make any sense to me? Can I bring it out in a meeting and get information from it? Probably not. It's too black. It's beautiful, but it's not useful. Sometimes this might actually not affect you. I can put that on the wall and I can see it from far away. I can reference it in an argument. I'm having with a developer on the other side of the room. And I can tell the senior, they're like, what about Anne? What about what Anne wants? I can point over there and say, oh, no, no, no. You know, this is true. This is not as effective as that. And really, like, even a sketchy persona like this, that can be useful for you if that's the kind of company that you have. Like, you know, maybe you're just like, oh, no, no, this is on the wall. Yep, that's what it is. Like, I can get that done in 15 minutes. I don't need to take too long to do it. And I can start working with this all the way. So the last problem is that I actually think there might be another problem that I added on the game, but the persona is the only yet side of it. So personas aren't really the prize. Like, this is not the reason why we do design including UX or that stuff. They're not very scientific. Like, they're a remembering job there. They're a bargaining chip. They're a summary. They're something that we can remember all that really good research work that we do. It's not actually the reason why we do this. So if you're only using this persona, it will help a bit, but it's not enough to drive an entire project in one frame. Like, we need to have this other data and research back into that. And there's, like, a whole lot of discussion in the UX world about this, about how to set up your data. And I'll get to that a little bit later. You should be doing other things. You should be doing books, books and surveys and stuff like that. If you can, if you can't, that's good too. You can figure out other things to do that might take less time, but there's this whole sort of world of research that we can tap into. But sometimes you think it really is expensive as you think it is, and it's really worth doing. So the last problem, the final one, which has been added on to 7, is that the persona is on the draw. Why go to all the effort of making a persona and never ever look at it again? And you might have seen, you've probably got, like, that dirty drive folder where you put, like, personas and never open it. You just, like, oh, yeah, you gave that to me at the side of the table. So there's no point. Like, why do it? Like, why do this work if you never even, if you never even work with it? So you can, here are some ideas of what you might want to do. You print it out, put it on the table, and then you send it to a meeting in the back of your desk for a meeting. Maybe you want to have it when you have your meetings and you can say, hold on to that stuff. Maybe you want to put it on the wall where other products in the company or the project can see it. Or where your engineers can see it. Or you, the designer, might want to see it. You just put on your nightstands and you can, like, look at your users every night and think about them and then you can text them again. So, top tips for personas. What we really want to do is use the personas to build empathy. So, empathy is very buzzword. Essentially, empathy allows us to get people to think about people who are not there. And designing personas in a workshop really, like, absolutely supercharges that empathy. So, rather than you doing the whole thing on your own, get your whole team involved. Make it a team sport where everyone thinks that it's not just you. It's not just you. Because that sucks. You're the only person who's ever thought about or met any users and everyone just doesn't know about you. So, doing it in a team is an excellent way to do it. Empathy maps are another form of personas that can be used for a different side of the project. And empathy map is this idea where you put yourself, it's sort of like a group exercise where you just put yourself in your user's shoes. So, you make a document where you draw a picture and then you get a picture of them and you put what they're thinking, seeing, feeling, doing, handling the games, and then you get to the user. And they look kind of like this. This is, you know, again, like a sketchy version. But this is something you just do with everyone on paper. And it doesn't, obviously, it's not as scientific because I've researched and researched. But it's a style. It's building their empathy. So, this is how everything, personas should really be focused around verbs. Do you have any engineers in the room? Couple? So, when we talk about personas, we're really talking about that third base thing. So, a lot of programmers, especially in sort of the OO world people in terms of nouns, so this is like, this is a user, and this is a part, and this is a checkout, and this is a store. And we really want to talk about the actions that people are doing around those nouns. So, personas with nouns is like a woman, office worker, developer. With adjectives, maybe it's a young woman, an ambitious office worker, a company developer. With verbs, we're saying to get a sense of her story and what she's trying to do. So, she's traveling, she's signaling, she wants to learn more, she teaches in the course. So, getting the story starts from that only add the verbs in. It's a really good way to think, when you're looking at these personas, very good words, and just start, you know, thinking about the best action, the best mindset. This is an amazing article that I highly recommend to anyone who is working with engineers or interested in engineering. It's called The Kingdom of Nouns. And it's actually talking about how in OO programming, the nouns are really dominant, but we really don't care which of the verbs is not particularly. And I'm not going to read this to you, but the idea is that nouns are things, and they're useful things, that the world isn't just made of things. Like, action is actually what builds our world. Action is what builds emotions and what drives people and motivates people. And change requires action. Action gives life a slice. Action even gives slices their slice. After all, they're not spiky until you do it. Nouns may be everywhere, but last constant change and constant interest is always the case. So really, like, think about the way that people do things and what they're doing and how they want to do them, and think of the verbs through the personas. It's a really good way to get a bit from those demographics as well. Everyone loves a story. So one of the great things about personas is they tap into our narratives in speech. So your persona is actually your protagonist in the journey of your product. So people remember, the great thing is that people actually remember stories really easily. They activate these thoughts that are part of the brain, that's that entity. They provide context for motivations and needs. They also just kind of work as like a bit of a conversation and blueprint. They get people thinking and talking in a structure that they understand, which is people and humans and stories. And they give some of these otherwise quite dry requirements a bit of meaning and purpose by weaving things together in a bit of a journey. So the other thing that you can do is that you can use personas to help your usability testing. That's not to say that you look at your persona only with people who are like that, but you can use them as like a way to start thinking about what kind of people you might want to trust and trust that. And of course you can use your personas to help other people see the value of UX design decisions. This is the great image. It's the CEO saying, how will this increase sales volume? And the project manager says, how long is this going to take? The data is in the user. This doesn't involve me. Also, I want a product. And, you know, you can point to that persona and be like, hey, I'm currently persona and I can't receive the goals, is that a good enough reason to do this thing? And that might be a really great way to link up everybody. So I know that you want to talk a lot. Leaning your personas is a really great way to start thinking about an easy way to get into this. And I'm really looking for lean approach to just doing it, getting it up, and then doing it anymore. So I want to talk about this and I'm going to call jobs to be done. Jobs to be done is the basic, the basic principle is that people hire products to get a job done. If you can uncover the job, it puts you in the right context for creating a solution. So I'm going to show you this sort of video because it's pretty life changing and I hope they sort of have a thing with, has something that can be a bit harder. Hi, my name is Clay Christians. I'm a professor at the Harvard Business School. I got with you and set puzzles all related to innovation. We decided that the way we teach marketing is at the core of what makes motivation difficult to achieve. The most helpful way we've thought of it so far is that we actually hire products to do things for us. And understanding what job we have to do in our lives for which we would hire a product is really the key to cracking this problem of motivating customers to buy what we're offering. So I want to just to tell you a story about a project we did for one of the big fast food restaurants. They were trying to goose up the sales of their milkshakes. They had just studied this problem up at the visitor. They brought in customers who fit the profile of the quintessential milkshake consumer and they'd give them samples and ask, can you tell us how we can improve so you buy more of them? Do you want it chocolatey or cheaper, chunky or chewier? They get very clear feedback. They would then improve the milkshake on those dimensions and have no impact on sales of profits whatsoever. So one of our colleagues went in with a different question on his mind. And that was, I wonder what job arises in people's lives that caused them to tend to this restaurant to hire a milkshake. They stood in a restaurant for 18 hours one day and just took very careful data. What time did they buy these milkshakes? What were they wearing? Were they alone? Did they buy other food with it? Did they eat it in the restaurant or drive off with it? It turned out that nearly half of the milkshakes were sold before 8 o'clock in the morning. The people who bought them were always alone. It was the only thing they bought and they all got in the car and drove off with it. So they were trying to hire it to do. We came back the next day and stood outside the restaurant so we could confront these folks as they left the milkshake in hand. And in language that they could understand, we essentially asked, excuse me please, but I've got to sort this puzzle out. What job were you trying to do for yourself that caused you to come here and hire that milkshake? And they struggled to answer, so we then helped them by asking other questions. Like, well think about the last time you were in the same situation needing to get the same job done but you didn't come here to hire a milkshake. What did you hire? And then as we put all of their answers together, it became clear that they all had the same job to do in the morning. That is they had a long and boring drive to work. And they just needed something to do while they drove to keep the commute interesting. One hand had to be on the wheel but somebody had given them another hand and they just needed something to do while they drove. They weren't hungry yet but they knew they'd be hungry by 10 o'clock so they also wanted something that would just fall down there and stay for that morning. Good question. I don't hire when I do this job and I've never framed the question that way before but last Friday I hired a banana to do the job. Take my word for it, never hire a banana. They're gone in three minutes or hungry by 7.30. If you promise not to tell my wife I probably hired donuts twice a week but they don't do it well either. They're gone fast, they come all over my clothes, they get my fingers gooey. Sometimes I hire bagels but as you know they're so dry and tasteless that I have to steer the car with my knees while I'm putting jam on them and then with the phone there's no crisis. I remember I hired a Snickers bar once but I felt so guilty I've never hired Snickers again. Let me tell you that when I come here and hire this milkshake it is so listless that it easily takes me 20 minutes to suck it up that thin little straw. Who cares what the ingredients are? I don't. All I know is I'm full on morning and it fits right here in my cup holder. Well it turns out that the milkshake does the job better than any of the competitors which in the customer's minds are not Burger King milkshakes but it's bananas, donuts, bagels Snickers bars, coffee and so on. But I hope you can see how if you understand the job how to improve the product it turns just obvious. It's a really interesting way to socialize and present this. So basically this idea when you judge people that you write a drug story so you have a situation so as a something something I want to something something so I can something something and this is sort of the summary of what he said. So he was saying that as a commuter having to work I want to fill myself up so I can get to work and not be super hungry having to sleep out here. So that becomes the persona and that's a different way of thinking about how to do it you don't have to have the fairy tale phrase essentially and that can still help you to make these decisions. So the idea is that you're building content through this research process which allows you to then see how the solution fits into the problem like it has to be. So in summary almost during our time personas' assemblies are very solid because they've been used throughout the project. Goals and pain points are the most important parts of your personas in these plans. So in summary coming Stephanie and personas actually work together to get involved for no reason at all. If you want to learn more I've put these slides up there's some links to some of your things about our research and I was looking at this. And that's it. Let me know if you have any questions. Questions? Yeah. What do they do, personas? The milkshakes. Well I think you know whether milkshakes are suited by some people's lives maybe not. I hope they're suited by some people's lives. So the company gets right and the company and the company and the company and the company and the company and the company and the company and the company and maybe that's not the wrong way of doing it. Like when you go into three new people that's really nice and if you want to know how much do you differentiate between the persona that you've created internally with your team versus what your client thinks the demographic in audience is. Where do you sort of draw the line of they think obviously that they know their audience best but maybe you've got a persona that they haven't yet thought of and they don't buy into what your time at present. So that's really interesting. And the one I think that's really interesting is that it's easy to know it's included in my experience as a business which means all of them are trading and actually trading is important for business and everything and I think we all know this right now that I have to say that this is what I'm going to do is we're going to know more about some of these very interesting businesses and that and you know if you don't do that I will always have a question about what you know about this. So you wanted to at any level to sort of leave that as a business. Okay. We're going to leave it the next week and then we'll see that. Thank you. Hello. Friends and friends thank you very much.