 In this episode, you're going to learn what's it like to be in the middle of a transition into service design. Here's the guest for this episode. Let the show begin. Hi, I'm Herb and this is the service design show episode 140. Hi, I'm Marc Fontaine and welcome back to the service design show. This show is all about helping you to understand what's beneath the surface of service design. What are the hidden things that make the difference between success and failure all to help you design great services that have a positive impact on people and business. Our guest in this episode is Herb Scheuer, who reached out to me with an interesting idea and that was to use him as a guinea pig. Now, let me explain. The guests you hear on the show have often already a quite established understanding of service design. Most of them say something like that they've been doing service design for years before they knew it had an official title. Now, Herb is actually in the midst of this transition from an adjacent field into service design. And what I enjoyed about this conversation is that he brings a fresh outside perspective while not being in our bubble yet, because once you're in that bubble, it's really hard to take a beginner's mind. So I encourage you to listen to this conversation and think about which questions aren't you asking enough and what are the things you're taking for granted in your work that are actually really important. Before we dive into the conversation, I really want to thank Herb for having the courage to jump into this conversation with me and share the experience he's going through knowing very well that other professionals who are maybe more experienced are listening right now. If your service design professional who wants to level up their game, make sure you subscribe to the channel and click that bell icon to be notified when new videos are out. So now it's time to sit back, relax and enjoy the conversation with Herb Scheuer. Welcome to the show Herb. Hey Mark, thanks for having me. Awesome to have this conversation with you. It's going to be a unique episode. That's a thing I know for sure, even though we haven't recorded yet. This is going to be an experiment which I love doing things that are a bit different than I've done before. But before we give too much away, let's start with a short introduction for the people who don't know who you are and I haven't looked you up on LinkedIn yet. Could you share something about what you do today? So today I am a principal design strategist and that is a new role for me. My background has been either to be a strategist or an account plan or various types of advertising and marketing agencies. So I'm moving into a new role a little bit more or I shouldn't say a little bit but definitely into the design and service design world and excited to see where this new adventure takes me. All right and that's going to be thread throughout this episode which we'll explore in a second but before we do that we go through our classic by now rapid fire question round. Five questions. Your task is to answer them as quickly as possible. Sure. Ready? Yeah. All right. What's always in your fridge, Herb? I always have goat milk. I've gotten obsessed with goat milk in the last couple of years and it's just I have to have it for all my cereals and chocolate chip cookies. Interesting. Goat milk. Haven't had that one on the show before but hey maybe I'll try it as well. Which books are you reading if any at this moment? I am refreshing myself on jobs to be done. It's a book I read several years ago and to give myself into the new role I was like oh there's a few books I just need to get page back through so that is the current one. I just started it three days ago so I'm kind of like into the meat of it right now and it's just it was a refresher. I read it several years ago but it was that's where my headset now so all business books nothing fun. Well those can be fun as well. What was your first job? My first job so I grew up on a farm. I'm farm kid in Iowa so my first job was of course Bailing Hay for the neighbors. My first job in marketing was I was the taco man for Taco Bell at the halftime show for the Chicago Bulls. How about that? Yeah I got my in for actual being a mascot and then from there I got internships in different agencies and kind of set my career off. Awesome that's that's good. I'll look up your LinkedIn profile if it's still on there. And now maybe the question that we're also going to explore throughout the episode but when did you learn about service design? Your first encounter? Yeah so my first encounter with service design was literally when I interviewed into the position I'm in now. I hadn't heard of that name I haven't heard of that calling a area in kind of this field until I encountered it there. Once I encountered it you know then spent some time familiarizing myself looking it up you know learning about it very quickly was very intrigued by it but that was the first time I'd actually had heard of those words put together like that. And that's fascinating because usually I have guests here on the show who sort of are familiar with service design for years decades and you're just transitioning into it and often people sort of look back on their service design experience and say yeah at some point I stumbled into it and I realized that there is something like service design but I've been doing it for years but that's usually years later. Now we are at an intersection where you reach out to me and said I'm just stumbling into the service design thing I'm going to be exploring what it is so why not have a conversation right now rather than in a few years about my expectations about what service design might be and I thought well that's an interesting idea I don't think we've covered that on the show before so here we are. So Herb you mentioned one of the things in our prep call was that you feel like so you're going to be one of them I think you phrased it like that. How would you describe them? Who are they? Yeah it's a really interesting kind of I've been going through a very kind of interesting through thought process a lot of feelings about where I'm going to the group I'm in now and the people I'm around I have so much respect and admiration for the work and how they think about the work because I've always kind of had the title of planner or strategist you know in some various way shape or form but I've never carried a title that had design in it and I've always worked alongside design I've always worked either partnered or like you know on projects or leading teams where you know there was two of us you know welded to the hip of like you you know you run a UX group you run a strategy group okay we're going to tackle this problem for this client so always was working with design but never had the design title so that I've had both I've had interesting mixed feelings of going in and understanding what it means to carry the design title and the reason being is I feel over the years I've not been a design practitioner I've been someone who you know has worked with the practitioners of the field and understand that there is a craft a way to do things I mean I make a good enough powerpoint deck but I do I am not a visual designer by any means and you know and not to pick on visual design it's just this like this idea of now wearing kind of the design title at the same time the group I'm working in you know there's there's service designers product designers there's all the different types of design so I had a a first you know I don't want to say fear but a first like nervousness of like oh my goodness I'm going in to work with people who know the language of design know what it means to carry the design title and I don't and it wasn't in posture syndrome it was more well I don't want to let these people down I don't I don't want to be the one that is always the having to play catch up because I wanted to be able to be able to collaborate and work and just kind of you know be part of everything that we do but know that I just knew I didn't have or I never had that title and I didn't know if that mattered or not and I'm that's one of the reasons you know in my exploration of like learning about service design learning about all things designs came across your show and every you know in various other places and I was like oh this world this language I'm starting to learn it and that's why I reached out because I was like oh I like this is to me an interesting you know I would like to explore interesting spaces as well and thinking about like oh what does this mean to start wearing you know possibly a design title and does that really change anything does that matter I don't know and so that's why I reached out to kind of explore and explore that space yeah and we don't have to come up with answers here let's uh questions are just as valuable and what's interesting about the perspective you're bringing into this conversation from my perspective is that you have an outside look on the design space the service design space usually I have guests who are already sort of biased and influenced from within the bubble and you're sort of standing next to it or with one feet in the space so it's interesting to learn and hear how you in this case look at the service design space from yeah from a different perspective but I think that will be a lot of fun to uncover maybe you mentioned something briefly about your background could you give like an bird's-eye view of your recent career and how you actually got into this position where you're taking on a service design role yeah uh so I I make the joke I sum up my career as I've seen a lot of different kind of strategy movies or marketing movies and what I mean by that is I've been a planner or strategist in a lot of different agency or agency type roles everything from a classic brand creative agency to a media performance agency to a PR agency to a giant PR agency to an official what I would say digital agency that was focused on a you know front end solutions of mobile digital all the way over to you know even display in stores and things of that nature so I've been in a role that is always kind of like taking different turns into thinking about strategy thinking about connected to the consumer thinking about learning about a target audience pulling insights to drive some sort of output you know across the marketing spectrum the last role before this role that I got into was working in pharma so I took that job because it was an interesting perspective of like well I've never worked as a strategist in a regulatory field you know how is that different and working with very very very small target audiences how do we impact that kind of rare and ultra rare diseases which I found fascinating and I think my career has always been hey I love learning and getting into and being curious about different spaces of how to understand target audiences or groups of people and activate against them and this role you know well this role popped up the where I'm in now because it's been with people I've worked with in the past mentor of mine I'd worked with you know kind of an ongoing conversation and it just happened to be a right time right place and said hey have you ever thought about doing this and his take on me was you thought in this way in a lot of different versions of your career he's like I think you would make a nice fit here I think you would bring a perspective of understanding how to tackle problems to drive solutions you know especially in kind of this design field because you do have his words not mine was you know you're always you're half thinking about the business business problem you're half thinking about consumers and really wearing a consumer hat this might be a nice really fit for you and I think you'd find a nice home here and that was interesting to me it was interesting of hey I've I've seen I like exploring all these spaces I like seeing how these connect and this just naturally fit to me as a as a next evolution of like oh let's go let's go try this on let's see how this fits this this seems really interesting to figure out how to take you know not just think about consumers as you know one specific target audience that we're working with marketing but starting to think about well how does this impact you know when we get into like the idea of service design and I may butcher this the definition or what it means because I'm still learning so please help me along the way but the you know the front of the back house in the back of the house how those connect how sometimes you know it's stakeholders it's people inside the company it's you're actually learning from them and then helping create new solutions that impact everything along the way and I my maybe my secret sauce to this whole thing is you know I've always had the idea of targeting Brandon rattling around in the back of my brain so it's like oh well then how even if we design a new in a new way for someone to walk through the store or a new way for someone to buy something through the mobile app that you know changes a lot of the back and back and processes how is that still on brand or how does the brand or the company show up there that makes it unique to them so the solution is still unique to them so that's how I don't know if that quite answers your question or if I meander too much there but really kind of like it was taking the I've seen a lot of different ways strategy consumer and insights have come to come you know to drive solutions and this was a new opportunity to explore that space yeah so basically it also comes down to the thing that you already had a service design mindset you just had somebody pointed out to you that there is a thing called service design and there is a role called so yep I think so I you know and I've heard that I've seen a couple episodes from your show and like I've heard that theme come up and I was like every time I heard it I was like oh yeah that's what probably yeah like you know the people who have designed backgrounds like oh they find this and it makes a lot of sense and then the more I've been exposed to it and the more I've been around it and the the more I've worked with people in my current role and just learning from them in the uptake I've been like oh my goodness yeah my my head does work like this like oh this is true like what they say on the podcast is right like yeah like oh I I do like this this does make a lot of sense to me and it's it's it's it's both fascinating and drives my curiosity to explore even more because I'm like ah that maybe this is the right home for me let's go let's go to the moment where I don't know how your application process went for this job but I'm curious to to learn like what was the conversation because uh going into the job application uh how did you feel how yeah take take take us back to that moment um my well I cheated a little bit in that I knew several I had worked with several of the people that I was talking to in the past so like we had some familiarity but where I was nervous and I'll be honest I'm still nervous even right now is how does my background how does my way of thinking how does my way of like you know understand getting two solutions or like brainstorming and collaborating all of this how does that fit and then what don't I know I like I'm still learning you know the nomenclature I'm still learning things and I have joke with people like when someone says something like oh that's high and low high and low fidelity prototyping I'm like oh oh oh I oh I've seen that before oh I know what that is like there's been so much language and things I've learned I'm like oh I know what that is but going into the process and going into it I was very nervous around hey how I think and how I approach you know being a strategist and a problem solver does that actually fit here because it it wasn't like a foreign language but it was a language with very heavy dialect and I'm like am I really understanding people are people really understanding me does this really match up and that's where my one of my large concerns is when I was going through the interview process was hey is this really a fit or is this just a yet sounds like it does so it helped that you knew some people and that they knew your background and then it helps to sure see if there is a fit now what I'm having this career and having this background this is an a path that maybe isn't the most obvious one maybe it is I don't know but what still motivates you to pursue this opportunity why do you think that this is an interesting step in your career right now because what the more I've gotten into this role and the team I've been around is the I've landed on this idea of oh what I'm doing is you know the team I'm working with is we take like we quoted this the other day because we were talking about this internally it's like oh we take intangible solutions and make them or we take intangible problems to make them tangible solutions this idea of hey we have to actually figure out the problem and make sure it's the right problem and then figure out ways to solve that and that is something that I've always been drawn to and always motivated by and I think you know my career has always been has had a large part of that no matter what I've been doing I've had to go in and like figure out like oh what's the right problem what are the right problem we're really to solve and like how are we solving it within this box or within this frame and now I think I'm just in a different place to do that with a lot of people who are actually doing the same thing and we're all we all I think now have a collective understanding of yeah we are trying to identify the problem and find the solution now do I think it's novel and only done in a service design group or you know that's not done across the field no um what I do notice the difference is is I do think there is a a broader aspect of what the solution could be I think what I've learned is while sometimes we can apply the idea of design to make just the mobile app or just make a specific um like where something sits in a store or how I'm you know how the POS system works or something like that can be very very particular it can also be applied at a little bit broader scale to actually figure out okay what is the what is the best way to create the experience for a consumer and that may not sound as nuanced um saying it out loud but I'm finding that that is where the real nuance is it is really thinking about hey the experience itself there's a little bit of meta pulled in that helps create find the right solution and you have to kind of work at it and figure out okay what are the different pieces and different ways in understanding to consume your audience your target audience persona a little bit different to get there then I would have experienced maybe in just creating a a brand campaign like you know something for tv like how a creative works there and I think you know someone creating creative messaging is highly attuned in that way and I think it's fascinating how their brain works this is just a little bit different I think and just makes a little bit more sense to me because it's about the real experience of like the tangible things you're going to touch and do if that makes sense I'm also very I'm also very nervous on this show right now because I feel like I'm getting into language or using language that I'm picking up at the same time so I think you what you mean here is something different here but please because I am learning as I'm going here and I think that's the interesting part because it's interesting to see this transitioning and to see which which words which jargon sort of again gets on your path soon which things stick which things don't stick and one of the things I heard you say what what excites you about this opportunity and the way I would translate it is that you are not tied to a specific medium or channel where you can design the solution like the solution is channel agnostic this medium agnostic can be anything and that opens up a lot of new opportunities to come up with solutions that's what I'm hearing you say yeah I think that's that's definitely part of it even in projects that I've been exposed to in the last even two weeks there what's nice about what you said there I think that is totally true and like hey it's it's open to interpretation of like where the solution shows up but what I've found fascinating is even in the smaller areas of a project where it seems more constrained there's still that possibility there there's still that possibility to turn it on its side and say oh wait a minute it this doesn't make sense like it we shouldn't be using a pencil here we actually need a big red marker that would be a better better solution and like oh that is interesting and that's interesting for me to try to figure out so I'm curious you mentioned something about that you that you think you still might have gaps in your skills in your knowledge let's dive a little bit in that you're basing this I guess on the work that you've seen other designers service designers do maybe some literature maybe the service decision podcast who knows um but what where do you feel the gaps might be most prevalent where do you want to level up the gaps is twofold one is now that I've been into it like there are artifacts one I'll pick on is you know an idea of the service design blueprint you know and I think that is something that is becoming a little bit standard or that idea a service blueprint is somewhat standard in different service design maybe approaches and crap um I've been exposed to that and seeing how that works and doesn't you know well not enough let me back that up seeing how that works with journeys and persona and how the personas and how that comes together that service the idea of the blueprint wasn't as soon as I saw it I was very comfortable in like oh I see what it I see what it is and I see what it's doing and I see the pieces of how to get there but that was new to me that was something I you know that was an artifact that was completely new that once I saw it I got it and um there's a couple of people I work with who've made some really nice ones that have been really helpful in understanding it and so there's I feel fortunate in that to be that's one of them that is probably like a pure artifact where the other gaps you know the a little bit more kind of like intangible ones were what I still don't know there's there is some language um like this is dumb but it's like I knew what a prototype was I always had an idea but I didn't always understand maybe how often they got applied how low or low-fire high-fi how you know when when they were put into like or when they should be like when's the right idea to bring them in or like when to go about it now the answer is anytime anywhere like you can like there's no there's no right or wrong to it right but it was when you like when I started like reading some of the material and they're like oh you should prototype now like one of the questions that I wrote down I was like oh do you always do you prototype every time do you do that like should you always be doing that and the answer I'm learning is yes and maybe like all at the same time now that's a weird one to pick on because like it's kind of generic and kind of like oh you should always prototype but it was just one of those things of like things I ran into in my previous roles we wouldn't have prototype hardly ever like we would never really sketch there might have been mock-ups of the uh or we might have mocked stuff up if we were doing user testing or if I was around like website development yeah like that would probably get in some way shape or form but the idea of like really leaning into that impossible earlier testing or middle testing or like that was kind of like a new idea that I was like oh wait a minute this isn't new but that totally makes sense like we should be doing that all the time and so there's been like little things along the way that I've just had to like oh okay that's yeah that makes sense now that I've been exposed to it and so those unknown those unknown ones have been the ones that have you know weirdly kind of surprised me the most first the bigger kind of artifacts once you kind of hear their names if that makes sense yeah yeah yeah and like the artifacts are I would say the the thing that's the easiest to learn like there are books uh and the other thing with regards to prototyping that's that's mostly an attitude thing and the answer that you found like when should you prototype you always and uh sometimes um that the the challenging part I think about design and service design is there are many ways to do it right and when you're joining in you're sort of looking for okay like show me show me how to do it and when you when you um uh run into a stubborn service designer they might say like just to do whatever you think is best like there is no right or wrong and uh in a sense that's true but that's that's not it's it's not the easiest way to get into this field I don't know if you've experienced something similar yeah it's so I'd say one of the you know the real it's the difference between toolbox and and then box of process like here's here's all the tools here's all the things here's a service design blueprint but which is an easy thing to be like oh I can wrap my head around that but it's like all right so what's the process to get there and then how do we really use that in you know is this the is this the output or the outcome and how does this help drive the outcome of what we were asked or tasked to do and so it's been like figuring out how to put these pieces in place like how a you know how a project actually works like from start to finish and wrapping around there and I think that's one thing that you know weirdly it is defined in you know you can read about it in books and you can read about it in like blog posts and other things people talk about it like oh here's how we start the process we do some of this we do some of this then we do some of this and it's weird because on paper you're like oh yeah that makes sense oh yep that makes sense but until you start doing it you don't really see how the the artifacts and tools that you have actually get applied to actually drive and how you might well you might not need to do that step that can just be talked about uh that can be whiteboarded you know and done with and we can move forward but actually you gotta spend a lot of time digging in here um and that you know that cadence and that understanding um is is probably something if you're trying if you're coming if you're new to this or haven't done this especially from my outside point of view that cadence and understanding is probably want to be the the tougher things to start wrapping your head around but it's not hard it's just until you see or experience it even on paper it's just one of those things where you kind of look at it and go well yes that makes sense but until you're going to think of it do you really understand how to internalize it yeah and there are so many micro decisions that go into the process which aren't documented documented and are impossible to document yeah but that's the thing you're running into like sure you can describe a five step process to anything in service design but then once you start doing the process there are like a thousand questions you need to answer throughout and make judgment calls and those judgment calls are things that you can only learn through practice uh right yeah totally and as you're speaking there I was like well what's the through line what what keeps me sane like I was trying to like just kind of reflect on what you're saying it's like yeah it's all those little decisions and I always said what I landed on was oh as long as you say curious in the moment you can like figure out how to sort through some of this and I think that's where I've had to lead into is like constantly which is part of why I think I took this position role all up was hey the curiosity of like keep asking the questions keeps like figuring it out this like this desire to like well let's figure this out let's put this together like how does this come together because as you said there are a lot of like little micro decisions along the way that you just have to once you get there you can figure out like oh this makes sense but what's helped is you know what's helped me along the way is like keep asking questions like there's no dumb question there is but they're like be comfortable with just like exploring why and like okay why is this happening now because the uptake will I think I've experienced it as will happen much quicker that's that's already a great insight for anybody who's interested in transitioning into service design like you might get hung up on the fact that um that it's a craft and you need to know what you're doing and you but but what you were what you were saying is that there is just a really simple process stay in curious and figuring stuff along out along the way it's like one of the things I like to compare design and service design to is like improv theater like you don't know what's going to happen next but you you have a process and an approach and an attitude which you can apply in any situation to get to the next situation and I think in a lot of the design processes it's the same you sort of know high level what's going to happen there's the start of the show and there's an end of the show but in anything that happens in between happens a lot in the moment and you have to trust a very simple process in which you describe this being curious and figuring stuff out which yeah same curious prototyping things trying things out that makes a lot of sense already yeah there's also a I don't know how to quite describe this how people approach this so you know I come from more of a strategy planning background versus a a design craft background and what I might be using the wrong language here to describe that so forgive me but the idea of hey if you're coming from a visual designer if you're coming from more of a formal UX training right like something into this space versus coming from you know strategy planning we we've we come from like different processes or different ways of thinking to get to the same idea and I had a great discussion with a couple people that I work with who I would say come from more of the craft side and it's what I've noticed is I've had to figure out how to apply a little bit more process to my thinking to be able to help be on the team to work through a problem versus when I'm talking with someone who's coming from a bit more of a craft design craft background there's already a a a rigor applied and how to loosen that up a little bit to think a bit more broadly and where we're meeting in the middle I think is a really interesting space and I don't it'll be interesting if you know you ping me a year from now if I have better language describe what I just walk through there because I do think there is that's kind of the the interesting thing where we're matching together and where I've seen like different people come at it because I work with someone that moved in it's going through the same process I am in this team and we talked about it and we we're feeling of the similar thing where it's like oh we can't you know we always approach you know strategy from yes understand a consumer and like we didn't have a lot of like rigid ways we did it we always kind of like duct taped it together um and that's one like this meeting of like where a rigid kind of way to do it versus a completely you know scatterbrained way to do it where that's coming together I think is an interesting process but or an interesting space but we are we're figuring it out and that to me is very I don't know interesting where they're already um and I'm sure they're they were uh some uh major aha moments for you stepping into this new role I'd say the first one is um the first aha is oh everyone's trying to figure it out like everyone is trying to put it together there is this everyone has this inherent sense of curiosity inherent sense of how do how do we really make something um but you know and what is what is experience and like another aha is really oh we talk like how to really formally talk about creating experience and what does that mean I don't have an answer for like that language or how to like create experience yet but the aha behind it is oh everyone's everyone is thinking this way maybe just a little bit differently but we are all thinking around this idea of like oh how do we how do we create how are we consciously creating that experience that's gonna solve this problem that was one of the bigger like oh every oh okay every yeah everybody's thinking this way okay I just gotta okay it's okay I'm okay like yeah I gotta I can figure this out so what were you expecting or if if that was a aha moment and you figured out everybody's thinking this way what was your uh image of the situation before I thought there was gonna be and I don't know why I thought this maybe it's just well I do know why I can explain here second but I thought there'd be a bit more formality or a bit more this is how we design like I thought there would be a bit more like capital D design and like how we do things um and it's not that there is an informality it's not that there isn't a rigor or way to do things I just thought there would be a a larger oh this is how we design and I think I have this inherently in me as uh earlier in my career when I was around a lot more I'd say visual design and a lot more very specific design I would say the people interacted with carried the the the word design with a very very capital D it meant that you wear you you know you you had a certain style about you you had a certain craft about you you had a certain presence and you could always tell like oh this is the design team and I am not cool enough to be one of those cool kids which and I don't say that I don't want that to come off as negative it's more of an observation that oh yeah there was definitely an inherent sense of taste and flavor which drove their creativity which I appreciated and I always assumed that was that's that's what design was you know it's like oh the steve jobs in the black turtle neck like oh you you you have to look this part right like that's what design is and what I've learned over the last couple of years and especially with you know the group on them now no there's there's small D design and it's kind of the same thing but it's more of an approach of like oh we're trying to figure out how to solve this problem than it is like than it is a a creative craft and like flavor of like specific things I have a lot of respect for people who are in the capital D design because you know of what they do and how they put things together because I know I am not but what I think my stigma coming into it was oh everybody's that way and so what I'm learning is what I'm learning is like no no there's a lot of like people like me just running around with them you know not the coolest teacher but a cool enough teacher to be like yeah we can all do this too and that's just sort of unfortunate that design has that image because I think it becomes less accessible and less inviting for a lot of people who could potentially contribute a whole deal to this field so through this show I also hope to evangelize a bit more that design is accessible service design is more accessible and you don't have to have a formal degree and it's okay when you're coming in from a different background now that there was an aha moment and I'm also curious to learn about what what have you experienced as the most challenging thing so far I think the most challenging thing for me so far is the the gear shift into workflow um and what I mean by that is and I don't know if this will be a challenge six months from now and it's probably a check it's probably a default when you move into any new job but it is noticeable here is you know coming from what I'd say more is you know a a brand agency or a creative agency being a strategist there is there was someone driving a project we had briefs we had certain ways and cadence to how we did things and what you're responsible for I would say in this role maybe not in this role with this with this company but just in in this kind of field itself is you still have some of that but it's it's much more fluid uh because you may have to constantly kind of change or adapt and that won't be probably on every project but what I have noticed is oh if we you know there's a lot of there is space to be able to say we explored this we learned this and now we have to turn and go this way we explored we learned and now we have to turn and go this way we explored to learn and that got us to the end and I I'm not saying that I don't know if that's how it's going to work on everything but then my initial exposure to that has been like oh there's a gear shift to be able to think about like how to stay on your toes a bit more to be a bit more nimble around projects and like approaching it and like putting it together versus what I was coming from it felt like maybe nimble and flat-footed as a as a good metaphor it felt very much like okay this is this is how we're going to go and do this we can do this this we we can go from here to here and it's done and we know um that might be I don't know that might be a weird kind of metaphor put together but just what it feels like and I think that's been one of the challenges but I don't see it as a bad challenge I just see it as like oh this this is a little bit different pace and cadence and way to kind of think about it that I've had to adapt to but I think it's very adaptable it sounds it sounds like the predictability part so there's less in a sense less predictability in the challenges that you're working on right now there is a very high level approach high level process but it's definitely less predictable what's going to happen on a day by day basis compared to some other design disciplines for instance right yeah I think and I don't know it'd be interesting to see how it holds okay it'll be interesting to see how it holds true because like I can only imagine like you're starting to put like journeys and blueprints together and you start seeing like oh we need to we need to we need to go this way a little bit differently now and that's what I'm expecting as part of it so I don't know I I'll I'll email you nine months from now and see if that holds true what would you say are and this will also be interesting in in a year time but what are the big questions on your mind right now that's tough because I think I'm still kind of in uptake mode to be able to like figure out what the big questions are I think what I'm starting to dance around is what what are the things we what are the things I will make versus what are the things that I will impact like and where I where that goes for me is there are you know there are there are deliverables that we will create and I'm trying you know I'm trying to understand like what those what those needed deliverables always are like there are there's always pixels on a screen there's always pages you know that you do versus what is what will be what are the things we actually impact and how to really impact those said differently coming from my old world I knew part of my impact was to impact the creative team to create an ad like that was part of my job like that was part of what needed to happen my my output was actually an input into someone else and are into a different team here I'm trying to it is like does that still hold true or is the input and output the same person you know and it's not that I think I'm putting myself on a pedestal it's like oh is what we do is how projects work is you know all of this kind of works together and I we have we have different teams of people we have people who are specifically in research and specifically in other areas and visual design and things like that so I don't think I am going to be taking that all on it's not what I was getting at it's more like oh what is where where does that what is the things I make and what is the impact you know what does that get directed to that's a little bit of like a question I have now and I don't I don't know it's a bigger question because I don't know where what that answer is going to look like so I'm sure you I'm sure you when you close your eyes and you visualize where you'll be in a year an image does appear like and also with regards to this so what do you see what do you what's the image of your work your responsibilities in a year time what yeah describe you yourself in a year time it's the ability I'll have the ability to jump into any any challenge and start understanding how to work that challenge to create kind of really unique really unique experiences and outcomes and now really unique is that like hugely unique or just unique for what it is those are all that will all be right sized as we go along but I'm using that language to be able to say like oh what I'm what I'm hoping I look like is the ability to really get in there and like grab a hold of these like experience problems and create experiences on the other side and I don't you know I'm not going to go I'm I'm not a developer I'm not going to go build the code that's actually going to maybe make the thing but it'll be I think I'll be much closer to the actual creation of the experience that I have been in the past I think mm-hmm mm-hmm yeah and I think there'll be a I think there'll be a stronger creative output than I'm than I'm accustomed to and I don't and am I saying I'm going to start wearing no the title creative by any means but I think there'll be I'll be more comfortable being closer to that and helping drive and create that now if we sort of start wrapping up our conversation what I'm what would you say to somebody who's in a similar situation like you maybe six months earlier like three months earlier just just before you were heading into this bet is there a piece of advice that you would give uh yes and if if you are really driven by that curiosity of how it all works and when I say it all works not just pure messaging or not just like pure marketing but you're you have a larger appetite or a larger appetite curiosity appetite of like I've always thought about like how to drive this the the total experience you know both from business side to actually how stuff gets made and done and pushed out and connected you know you you've thought larger I would say you're probably three quarters of the way into this field already and you just like that is something I didn't know and that's what I would say pass on if you are sitting on teams and you get frustrated because all you can impact is maybe a piece of marketing but you think larger this might be a place to explore and it's okay to explore it you're probably more in it than you realize and you know like you've heard people say on their show oh I run in the surface I know that's what I do I think that's true but I think it's true for probably more people than they know to experience this and I would say um go have those discussions with you know the UX people CXers the people wearing some of the experience design titles that you're around and see see if you're like oh that's interesting see where like if the way you're experiencing kind of what they do also you know percolates like oh I that's that's I find that kind of neat said in a very weird way I think you're three quarter like I said before you're you're more in it than you realize and I think it's worthy to explore I think you'll you know my advice to you would be go ahead dig in a little bit more because the more I've dug into this the more I've experienced it even in though I've been very nervous and I've been very you know scared it's not the right word but I have been uneasy because I felt like I didn't like belong in this group in a way the more I've gotten into it the more I've realized like yeah the way I think or the way I like to think is a lot closer to this than than I anticipated. So maybe if we get the opportunity to talk again in in 12 months time what would be the one question that I definitely should ask you? I would ask myself um the things that you were worried about were the right things to worry about and what did you miss what what did you you know what what was a misfire in your head like what did you anticipate what is going to be this way but actually with that way um to provide further advice to somebody else of like don't stumble on that same stumbling block like like that wasn't as big as deals you thought it was this one was and to understand I'd say like you know what were what yeah let me rephrase that what were you worried about that you shouldn't have been worried about and what should you have paid more attention to yeah so what's the noise and what's the real signal yeah yeah thanks for that yeah thanks for the sys there that's great yeah what's the noise what's the real signal yeah and that's hard because yeah most most of the time you just learned those things through experience so we'll let's see if we can make it happen in a in a year time first of all sort of last of all thanks for reaching out that's already a very big step and courageous step not being very experienced in this field and still being able to and willing to share your story so I really appreciate that and once again thanks for coming on yeah thanks for having me mark yeah and thanks for you know like being game for even this um but you know I I really appreciate you know all the podcasts that I've listened to it's it's definitely given me you know helped me understand language and ways to kind of think about like what I was getting into and you know and thank you for letting me stumble around here for an hour because it is it is you know real time for me trying to figure some of this out and just I find that valuable and happy to share it so thank you for this activity and then this is how the design process works right we stumble forward and that's just part of the game and I'm happy to provide a platform for that so thanks again her I really hope you enjoyed this conversation and most of all got something useful out of it if you did make sure to click that subscribe button so you won't miss any future episodes thanks so much for watching to the service design show and I'll see you in the next video