 out of bed, out of the window she caught her head, crying John, John the old goose is gone and the fox is on the town, oh, town, oh, town, oh, John, John the old goose is gone and the fox is on the town, oh. Then Johnny went to the top of the hill to blow his horn both loud and shrill, Foxy said, I better flee with my killer to soon be on my trail, trail, oh, trail, oh, Foxy said I better flee with my killer to soon be on my trail, sometimes it works and sometimes it don't, just like people. Well, the fox, he ran till he came to his den, there were the little ones, eight, nine, ten, they said daddy better go back again because it must have been a mighty fine town, oh, town, oh, town, oh, they said daddy better go back again because it must have been a mighty fine town, oh. Then the fox and his wife without any strife cut up the goose with a fork and knife they never had such a supper in their life and the little ones chewed on the bones, oh, bones, oh, bones, oh, and they never had such a supper in their life and the little ones chewed on the bones, oh. Then the little ones, eight, nine, ten, laid down their forks and spoke up again, they said daddy better not go back again because it must have been a mighty fine town, oh. Daddy better not go back again. I screwed up sometime. They said daddy had better not go back again because it must have been a mighty fine town, oh. Thank you. Mr. Patrick Johnson. Patrick didn't sound too, and he's been working on this cranky box to spruce it up a little bit. Okay, we're going to start this evening's NPA meeting. Thank you all for coming. Hopefully you enjoyed the dinner. Is that too loud? It's not loud enough. I'm not loud enough. Rarely is that the case. I can assure you. We're going to start right off, I believe, with some public announcements. And Don Tram was going to give us, if he was here, which I don't, okay, we're going to start right off. And then if I find Don Tram, then yeah. Clap twice if you can hear me. Clap twice if you can hear me. Clap twice if you can hear me. Thank you. Hey, my name is Jacob Flanagan. This is Alyssa Faber. We are your representatives for the Winooski Avcorder Visioning Study. Hey, so we're getting to a really excited part. We did all the visioning and goals and whatnot. And now all of our fancy engineers that we hired have come up with some all alternatives. We're just starting to mull through them and look at them and give them first pass feedback. And we're going to have public meetings for you all to come and participate and give your voice to that. But we also want your input now, because this is going to be like the really important time when you can change what these alternatives look like. And we've got some good feedback from the local businesses, which is awesome. But we're here to represent residents. And we haven't heard a lot from you guys. So if you have any ideas or you want to know a little bit more about what these alternatives are, please come to us. Also, the public meetings are in April. We'll tell you next month more. They want to do multiple public meetings in different venues around North Manuski. So stay tuned for that. And next month, if someone doesn't come from the committee, Jacob and I will have alternatives here. We'll table and show alternatives. So please come with comments for that so we can share your comments. And this is really important because as you might have guessed, a street is only so wide. So what are we going to put in it? Is it going to be travel lanes? Is it going to be parking? Is it going to be bike lanes? Is it going to be trees and green belts? We have to make some choices. And the north section of the street, I think, is probably going to be the toughest place to make those choices. So please come and let us know what you think. Thanks. Thank you very much. We have any other? These are wonderful community volunteers. Without them, the city would not function. So Patrick doesn't have his glasses on. So we can't read the agenda that he's supposed to read. So just a reminder that if you ever can't make the meeting, these meetings are now live streamed on YouTube and the link is here. Are you saying this is good or not good? Good. Okay. We are also videoing them over there. We were also asked by an audience member who I have forgotten and they can or cannot identify themselves if they want to remind the steering committee members as well as audience and presenters to give their name before they say anything because you guys don't know who we are and you don't know necessarily who the presenters are. So I will introduce the steering committee members who are here or I'll look at them. So my name is Amanda Hannaford. I'm in Ward 3. So I'm in Ward 3 steering committee member. And we have Emma. I'm Emma Schoenberg. I'm Ward 2 steering committee. Oh, two. Patrick Johnson. Anything else I should say? Anybody else who's here? Any others? Oh, Jim Lockridge. You guys, you know, I don't do well under pressure. So you got to help me. Hi, I'm Jim Lockridge, Ward 3. Perry Freeman will stand up now. She is Ward 3, 2. Ward 3. And I'm looking for Vikas. Oh, Vikas. What are you saying? Hi, I'm Vikas. I'm in Ward 3 as well. Let everybody see you. So I think, is that everybody who's here? So everybody else just feel free to, or please introduce yourself when you ask a question or presenters, please introduce yourself. The other, yeah, so I think that's about it. Oh, Emma has an announcement. For those of you who were here last month, we came up with the idea of hosting a Tenants Rights Forum because of that really productive conversation that we had here. So that is on the books. There's a Facebook event for it. There are posters, though I have none of them with me today. So just remember this in your mind. It is February 23rd at 10.30 a.m., 10.30 to 12.30, and it's here in this building. So you already know where it is. So February 23rd, Tenants Rights Forum question and answer session from 10.30 to 12.30 here in this building. So this is just an announcement. We have sample town meeting day ballots here with us tonight, I believe, so you can see what they're going to look like. And then you can also find them online. I'm not going to read the URL out loud. Oh, wow, it's behind me. So these are the sample ballots right here. I recognize some of those names. And then the link also for you to find this on your own is in the agenda. I might just do the rest of this. Hi, everyone. So there's no state representative update, so I asked if I could just have a minute during the public forum to check in with people. Representative Brian Cina, I have a very special announcement to make. I'd like to let you know on Valentine's Day who my secret crush is. I'm in love with the old North End and it's okay. We're in a platonic polyamorous relationship, so you can be too. So seriously, now that I've got your attention, I want to let you all know about an event tomorrow. While I look on my iDevice, I'm just curious, is anyone feeling frustrated with the way that democracy is working in your city? Well, tomorrow night, we're going to have a little event over at 294 North Winooski and from 7.30 until 8, there's going to be food by the People's Kitchen and music by myself. I don't know if you know that I'm a DJ and DJ Infinite. And then at 8 o'clock, people are going to make campaign lawn signs, and then there's going to be two presentations about how to be more involved in direct democracy. So if you're interested and you're free tomorrow night at 7.30, please join us at 294 North Winooski for a community event to just gather and talk, you know, sort of commiserate and be constructive with our feelings and try to find ways to direct our energy so people feel empowered again. And then the last thing I would just say is if anyone does have any questions about anything going on in the legislature, and there is a lot, I'm going to have a cigarette. You can come out and talk with me for 10 minutes or just grab me at some point, but I don't want to miss the interesting debates. So I would just ask during that, he'll let me eat my popcorn. So thank you. Any other announcements? Wow. Impressive. So we're going to move right along to the inspector of elections, introductions, quick statements. I believe that is next on the agenda as I don't have any glasses, I can't tell. But yeah, I think so. So those who would like to inspect elections who are running, would you make your way up? And a word clerk, which is equally as important. Sorry. I know. I don't have my glasses, so I can't read them. I'm Wendy Coe. I figured out last night I have been a word clerk for 23 years. And I like to organize the polling place so that democracy can happen as smoothly as possible to empower people who come in looking lost to be able to vote. And that's what I like to do. So I keep doing. Hi, I'm Sarah Gellin. I have been doing the elections for 11 years now, and I've been the word clerk for the past two and enjoy doing this. I'm running on a post this time. So Amanda asked me to talk briefly about what we do. So we start six weeks before the inspections getting our schedule ready. And hopefully we have enough people. We spend 12 hours running around like crazy while the polls are open. And then we spend probably another five hours afterwards getting all of our counting and reporting done. It's a lot of work and it's really fun. And I enjoy doing it with the help of our inspectors here, that along with the word clerks keep everything moving smoothly as possible. And one of those people running for inspector. Hello, everyone. My name is Julia DiPietro. I'm running for inspector of election for Ward three, the three year term. I've been working at the Ward three polls since about 2008. And then for the last two elections, I've been I was appointed to be an inspector of election because the post was vacant. And I enjoyed doing it. And I'm thanks for your support and see you at the polls in March. I'm Barbie Alsop. I have not worked at the polls yet, but I am running for inspector of elections and I have the endorsement of the progressive party. I have been volunteering for years for candidates around here, figured it was finally time to put my feet where they belong to make sure elections are fair and all votes are fully counted. I will be working the polls as an election worker in March in preparation, I hope for three years as your new inspector of elections. And I don't think there's any reason for you to pick either Julia or me. So just go for whoever you want. Hi, everyone. I'm Charlie G. Charlie Janone. And I'm also running for inspector of election. The only thing I really wanted to say is that people in the Old North End are absolutely blessed because you've got very stable elections, elections officials here. People have worked for years and years like Julia and Sarah, but also Kit Andrews who's sitting over here. So we've had a great team for a long time and everyone is always encouraged to actually join us. So if you have any interest at all in learning how the polls operate, please don't hesitate. Whatever ward you live in, just contact the ward clerk and we'll put you on the schedule. You can learn how to how to do everything. It's very complicated, but it's mostly fun. You meet a lot of other people and as the day goes by you, it just gets more and more busy and everyone gets involved and it's wonderful. So if anyone has any interest at all in serving as a ward official, there's always room regardless of what ward you're in. And I just want to say that here in the Old North End, we're especially lucky because wards one, two and three in my opinion, in my opinion is the most are the most stable polling places because our our staffs are very consistent and we train everyone. So I hope to see you all at the polls and thank you. Hi, everyone. My name's Dee. I'm standing in place for Bonnie Filker. She just wanted to let me tell you that someone had her car, which is why she's not here, but she's really excited to be running and she's hopeful for your vote. Thank you. I hope she's okay. That was quick, wonderful, great candidates. I still not quite sure what Inspector Election does, but I should look that up. I believe we're going to move right on to the next agenda item. Mr. Mayor, are you going to do first? I see a bunch of names on that list. Okay, yep. And he's going to give us a rundown on some charter changes. Hopefully we have some questions. We're going to try to keep it quick with the questions. We have a long session tonight, but if you ask a question again, please just give your name if you're comfortable with that and what word you're in. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Thank you, Patrick. It's great to be back with you. Thank you to all the volunteers for another spectacular meal. So I'm not 100% sure exactly how we're going to do this, but I did just talk to Amanda and before we get to ballot item number three, I did just want to touch on ballot item number two quickly because it's an important one as well. About item number two is about maintaining city services for just the second time in eight years in order to maintain city services at the current levels, we need a small increase to the property tax levy. So the city is requesting with, I think, a 10 to 2 vote of the city council. We've put on a request for a 1.5% increase in the municipal property tax. It amounts to about $40 a year for the average Burlington homeowner and even if that increase were to go through, we're proud, I think, collectively, the city council and the administration that if you kind of look over the last eight years at the eight budgets that I've been responsible for, we will still be below the rate of inflation over that time if this rate goes through. And that's after outing some pretty substantial city services if you reflect back over the last years. The additional foot patrols you see on North Street are in part a result of adding five police officers. We added for the first time in 18 years three firefighters last year. We've dramatically expanded the youth programming and team programming at the library. We've created a whole new early learning initiative to give scholarships to low income kids ages zero to three and give expand access to high quality childcare. The opportunity to apply for those scholarships is going to roll out just in March. And quite a bit more. So we're proud that we've been able to do all that through efficiencies and some smart decisions and some advances in some areas and keep the rate of property tax growth for core municipal services below the rate of inflation. We hope you'll be voting yes on that. Ballot question number three to dive in and I know other people want to take some questions on that or number two. Any questions on number two? Wow. There you go. Good job. Great. Okay. So ballot question number three is and I know there are other people who are going to speak to this as well and I'm not quite sure how we're going to do that. So but I'll just kick off with my thoughts. Ballot question number three is about a number of things but kind of overarchingly it is about implementing permit reform. This is something that has been a high priority of the city council and the administration for years. There was I think a unanimous city council vote three or four years ago that said we want to do this. Your city councilor Brian Pine has kind of described this effort as trying to cut the Gordian knot of municipal services. We have we've had a lot of challenges in our permit department. It is a complicated system and many many of our residents don't get the results out of it that they hope to or get them in a timely manner and we think fundamentally the reason for this is not because we have bad employees. We have we have strong very committed employees that work on this area and try their best but the system itself is flawed. We have three different departments that are responsible for different elements of our permitting system and you know what I'm talking about with permitting is when you when you want to put a porch on the back of your home or make some kind of you know other improvement to your home or small business you have to go through three different departments now to secure the core permits to do that there you have to go through the planning and zoning office through the building inspection services at DPW and through code enforcement and the core way we are trying to improve that is to first of all create one unified permitting and inspections department a single point of accountability and all of those personnel will be in one place there will be a permit center down on Pine Street instead of having to go to multiple different locations without the city to secure a permit. We're very hopeful that once we get this done a number of other improvements will flow from that there was a lot of support on the city council for this effort as I think you're going to hear from your counselors in a moment I think it was 11 to one vote and we think this is going to be a major advancement for the city there are a couple other elements I think there's little controversy that I've heard about that that part of the change I have heard some questions about another element of it which is which flows from this change and let me just spend a minute more before handing over the mic on this is we have when you if you think as I just described we are taking the zoning element of the planning and zoning department and we are taking it out of that department and putting it in this new permitting inspections department that leaves a small planning department in its wake if you will there there's a planning department that will be reduced to three people and it has raised some questions about what's the best way to organize and structure that after some back and forth of the city council the planning department is going to remain its own department but there is a widespread sense that we can better coordinate the efforts of the planning department we can make the planning efforts more relevant to and successful with implementation and better coordinated with the rest of the city's efforts if the planning department becomes like every other city department in the city and ultimately accountable to the mayor and the city council for their work right now the planning director is appointed by the planning commission and we think it's frankly not the right long term you want your elected officials who are elected in part for their vision of the future and are responsive to the public you want that reflected in choices about who the planning department should be so that's that that's the core of why we've gone in this direction and when I turn it over to counselors no dell and pine to expand on this if that's the way it's not the way we're trying to do it patrick i'm going to come back to ballad m4 and gene bergman is here to discuss that with the mayor again thank you okay um i've been very involved with permit reform there were a couple resolutions from the council that was we're laying out the key you know saying we we want to do this and let's go get to create this one stop shop and it took a ton of work i think the mayor did a nice job describing it what i want to say is kudos to the department heads who actually gave up territory gave up authority in order to create a system that's going to work better for the people of brodington that usually doesn't happen in organizations people try to grow their domains so there was great cooperation among the department heads once they heard that you know we need to stop giving people unintentionally kind of the go around in terms of running up and down pine street and sometimes getting different questions different answers the same question um and i think this will lead to it being easier for people to make basic improvements to their homes and also more affordable turn over to bright i would just say the only thing to add is that one of the outcomes we hope is that there will be a closer review of additional ways to make it easier for burlintonians to to make improvements to their properties through this process not today but as we get into this hopefully there'll be a willingness to engage around the issue of do you need really to have a full permitting on putting up a fence to replace the fence that was separating your property from your neighbors right now you need to get permits for that and that is a pretty cumbersome process do you really need to have an architect develop plans within your home to modify a room for for changing needs of your family or for accessibility modifications it's a very involved process to the point where there are contractors who when you ask them to come work on your house and they say where do you live and you tell them they say no thank you i actually don't pull permits in burlington so that's a that's not just a reputation that's not just a rumor that really does happen and we we don't we don't serve the taxpayers of burlington the residents of burlington well when that's the case we ought not to make it harder for people to change their properties to meet the evolving needs of them and their families that's just what i wanted to say and what we're open to questions on this one because that's really why we're here i think as well patrick amanda questions should we just do that now on this question for okay i see andrea's hand up back there i just happened to recognize her so go ahead hi um happy valentine's day i'll start with that we're nice to be together yeah it's i'm glad to be you're all my valentine i am so excited about the main part of this permit reform and it makes it easier and consolidates it but i have to say that i'm really concerned that it's an appointed position and i'm not sure why it was a it's an appointed position um where it has been in the past the commission that has recommended somebody for these for the department of public works but the commission was the i guess the person that put the name of that chair forward and i'm i'd like to know more about why mr mary you think that it should be you that appoints that now and why that changes is i just frankly see that that's um like ripe for corruption sure let me let me try to answer one thing andrea i think i just want to clarify when you said appointment of a department head did you mean that the person who's who's slated to fill this role of the consolidated department has been picked already is that what you're referring to or you say that the planning director would not be accountable to the mayor is it that would be selected by the mayor like i i understand in the past that has been like a person has been chosen by not just the mayor but by i know it's a new position but the equivalent of that was put forward by commissioners and not by the mayor sure so this is the main change really is that out of all the departments there's only one where the department head is not chosen by the mayor at all the commission seven citizens choose and supervise and the and the planning director reports to those seven commissioners the planning director doesn't report to the mayor at all so way back in time bernie sanders said we have these little fiefdoms where department heads get to control the departments yet the citizens hold me accountable for those departments and i have no real authority to the point where the planning director actually said as long as that guy's in the mayor's office i'm going to do crossword puzzles for the next two years so that he doesn't get any credit for anything good happening so that was the kind of situation where departments were literally autonomous fiefdoms so in the early 2000s peter clavel and the city council proposed and the voters supported moving to a place where the chief elected official the mayor is accountable to the citizens and gets to actually choose the department heads hopefully through a more inclusive process but that was the the move to move all departments in that direction with the exception of that one department planning so this is actually finishing that process so that the mayor who's accountable to the citizens of berlington is actually in charge of all department heads so i believe at that time though it was chosen that that it was decided that that position should not be chosen by the mayor because of the potential for corruption i don't know that i'd say corruption really i don't think that was the topic but well i think it was i'll take the word corruption out but i'll say that at that time it's my understanding that this it was decided that we'd rather have this position because it's such a powerful position in the in the sort of creation of the city to be not appointed by the mayor so this is a big diversion from or big change from that decision a long time ago yeah there was i think the most critical step for for for development review though is the development review board which are seven citizens and they issue permits so the planning director doesn't actually make decisions on permit applications that's done by citizens so the actual regulatory body that judicial body is the planning is the development review board so i would say it's i think there was a feeling that the department head in that department shouldn't be accountable to the mayor because the mayor be able to exercise undue influence over those decisions i don't know if anyone's hears on the drb but it's really an independent drb is really an independent body but your question was also to the mayor so let's let him address that um well i'm glad you made the last point there brian because i think there's some confusion about that that um the way in which we have tried to ensure i think what you're getting at this heart andrea is that we don't want permits to be issued as on kind of political grounds that we don't we don't want the issuing of permitting to be political that's a regulatory function and i think properly there's some discomfort about the idea of uh elected officials being able to directly control that that separation has been is maintained by this charter change because of what brian is saying the the decision on permits is made by the development review board with the advice the design advisory board and and the conservation commission and nothing is changing about the structure those structures similarly the planning commission has a statutory role in uh essentially advising the city council on zoning changes and they play a role in the approval of the municipal development plan something the city does every five years we're in the middle of doing it right now and that too that statutory authority of that independent appointed body is also being preserved by this so um the that's how mindful of the concern i think you're raising about how directly we want elected officials to be have their hands on the permitting regulatory function that remains this important separation and it is these these separate bodies that retain that power that authority thank you um that that makes a lot of sense and um in some in some ways i need to like process that a little bit more because you there's a lot of departments and we have i'm sure i'm not alone with that um yeah i i do have a follow-up after thank you it also says in this um ballot that um it lists in the revisions that are that are posted that um they have this person has to be a resident of the city and i want to make sure that that doesn't become an exception like the um the school board commission the school board i want to make sure that whoever is in that position is living in burlington and exposing themselves to their own changes so andrew you've you've hit on another uh one of uh you know interesting um debates intentions within city government the yes this position will be subject to the um residency requirement essentially within the charter um the residency requirement will remain as it is now which is a requirement that that certain department heads including this new one um bc residents uh the charter also says however that the council retains the right to grant hardship exemptions and the council has taken that as a uh something they need to grapple with and define and and that definition has continued to evolve it's written down there are very few exceptions that we uh that we allow people not to live in the city burlington but there are a few and um it we think you know i've supported the the way the council's interpreted this policy and i think it's important that the city retain some flexibility in certain um situations uh to um uh balance that desire to have the person live right here with other things like their kids where their kids in school at the time they're hired do they have they purchased do they own a home uh somewhere near burlington um and would it be very challenging for them for what amounts to a one-year appointment to quickly uproot themselves and move and it's and you know do we want to actually require that given their certain conditions and uh you know you may not agree with where we've landed on it it is in the charter and this is the way we've tried to interpret it is this coming yes uh yeah ben gordeski and so um related to what brian said um in my mind um the issue with permitting um you know renovation construction projects isn't so much that you have to go to city hall and then pine street it is the fact like brian said that you need a permit for so many different things that are that don't have any relation to public safety and so is it possible to make those changes that to to basically reduce the number of things that require a permit without making the changes that question was three or four um you know basically we could vote no on this question but still have what at least i really want yes that's correct that's correct um because those are you know ordinances um which are under you know which are adopted by the council and so you could you could still kind of deregulate and lighten up the permitting requirements um without creating the consolidated system um i still think it would be the whole process will be more efficient regardless of you know you're still going to have some permits for bigger things that impact your neighbors and so forth um but they are conceptually separate and but i think it's really important that to understand it in my mind the work is not done after this charter change if it's adopted and approved by montpelier i think we really then need and and i would be committed if i go back to really making sure that the ordinance committee goes on and deregulates the permitting process to kind of lighten up the the load on people where it's reasonable i'll make this really really quick because i know we're running out of time uh something that i this is kind of piggybacking on andrea a little bit something that i haven't heard anybody address is i don't understand why it's not possible for them to be elected positions instead of appointed by the mayor or appointed by a council i think elected an elected position would be more directly um come from the people rather than us arguing about who should have the power to appoint it why don't we just vote on it we do that for a lot of other stuff in burlington um yeah while it's it's it's uh this is a really interesting suggestion it could be done that way um that isn't the way our charter has been set up or that this proposal is set up um and i i guess i would have uh i would have some concern about suggesting it being done that way in that that i think would do a certain degree undo uh the progress that council pine was just talking about where the city moved to uh make moved to a structure that requires a certain level of coordination and cooperation among city departments i think we struggled when we had a situation where there were these islands that um really could do their own thing and didn't have to do what what the you know what what and i think there's some some problems with that and some conflicts with that but it certainly could be done the way you're suggesting i just want to very quickly come circle back to ben's uh because i i want to just say strongly theoretically the progress i agree with you that there's lots of policy um considerations and improvements that need to be uh considered and made they um have not happened uh under the current system and even when great effort has been put into that um and i think they are unlikely to happen in the current uh system because again this issue that the system is so fractured no one is really responsible for the whole thing and that is the root of i think the perverseness of many elements of our permitting system already bill ward who will be the presumptive new department head is talking about creating instead of multiple different permits a unified permit to go build your porch or new kitchen or whatnot it it's that kind of thinking that's going to make the system better and i don't think that will evolve without this structural change i'm sorry we well we have this on now who will appoint the planning director under the new proposal and that department is split off who will appoint the planning director again steve will be the mayor with the city council confirmation like every other department just just you know that was an issue 20 years ago and there was concern about that and it was concerned about undue influence of the city over what was meant to be an independent planning department right another question where does the fire marshal fit into this the fire marshal will remain part of the the fire department and so there will continue to be engagement from some city officials outside this core permitting inspections department but there will be just a lot will be brought under this one of just a partial consolidation then i think it's pretty dramatic consolidation see but you can you can characterize it you'll see hi kevin duterman word three hi just a quick question this is this might be outside the scope of what you guys are able to just pull out of your your your noggin's but you know so my thought is like taking the spirit of taking nothing for granted um you know from you know in in a perpetuity my question would be you know your mention of the drb you know development review board would what would it take for that to be disbanded you know like would the director have any sort of influence over that possibly happening in the future i don't i don't know how like ingrained that is you know does that make sense okay the review of projects by the development review board is governed by state statute so there's no one at the local level that can mess around with that under our new zoning laws there's great authority for the planning director to issue permits without going to the design review board it's already happened in a very bad way but that's not true everything does not go through the drb inclusionary zoning not inclusionary zoning but the form-based code does all kinds of things that give great power just to the administrative authority in the planning department and they've already used that authority to our detriment the question was actually what can we do to disband the drb that's what you were asking so that's different from what steve good kind just i was responding to the answer yeah not the question yeah so chapter 117 of state statute says you'll either have a planning commission or a development review board issuing permits so what steve's referring to is a change in the process around um code i'm sorry um form-based code which went through a lengthy process and it applies to a certain area of the city so um maybe the america talk a little bit about it but i think we're running out of time patrick well yeah we have a really i mean just a sentence on it i mean everything steve just suggested there all authority that was given in an attempt to make some efforts move more efficiently and quick quickler to the degree there's any controversy about those decisions they all can be are appealable to the development review board and the development review board retains ultimate authority and so i think councillor nodell had a right thank you very much for an explanation of very complicated issue sure hi my name is gene bergman and i have lived in war two for a really long time with my wife wendy co and raised our two kids and i am the former senior assistant city attorney uh for the city of berlington after 20 years this uh june i retired and i would have liked to have stayed pretty retired except there is a proposal on the ballot number four that has forced me to uh to come out in opposition and i'm very happy i spoke a little bit at the last npa but i'm very happy to be joined by a group of citizens from around the city into a no on four btv committee to oppose this the i just want to start by um saying that uh already the proponents have put some pretty fancy um a campaign literature they've they've produced it i don't know how it's been re uh been been distributed distributed but one of the things that they say he's carried it here so it's it's about to be distributed but um it says here on number four which they are supporting the city will retain all current authorities the fact of the matter is that's just not true what we are doing with this proposal is turning the governance of the church street marketplace into a private entity that will control the downtown improvement district i i want to say that the other thing just this sort of like this preface is that you know campaigns are tough because you got to do sound bites the short form and i don't envy the attorney who drafted it my former boss but um this is a very complicated it was like 16 pages right and you boil it down to you can see it on the sample ballot to really short but it does not do justice to the injustice that the citizens of burlington are going to be faced with if we adopt this proposal they talk about establish a non-profit entity to manage uh but they don't talk about the powers they just say describe the powers they they they don't make it clear it says here that provide a sunset provision that will automatically end the d i d after the 10 years if not renewed but the fact of the matter is if the d i d is not removed under this proposal the church street marketplace and its commission its public commission will be done in fact when you approve of the d i d if you approve it that church that public entity that controls the church street marketplace will go away and it will be governed by a private entity so i've got unfortunately because i'm a lawyer i got to go through all this freaking words to to figure this out and i did and we they made some changes as a result of my uh my comments but i've got um a number of major problems with this that is joined by this committee the council at the behest of a faction of downtown businesses not all proposes to give away the democratic control over the downtown district it is in our opinion an anti-democratic power grab and i would just have to say that i wanted to understand how this thing came about so i put in a public work records request last week um to find out how the advisory committee like operated when it met the public notices and the minutes of the meeting because i keep hearing well this is just what the process was and it turns out that they have declared that that downtown improvement district advisory committee which was created by the city council and has a city counselor and a church street marketplace representative is supposedly a not a private entity and it's not open to public scrutiny that's outrageous and um it's indicative i think of what is uh is down the pike for us but the proposal gives control over the management of the district to a private entity and regardless of how they're appointed and you can read in bloody detail the the the initial um appointment of these people those board members owe a fiduciary duty to that private entity not to you not to me not to any voters here even though the entire purpose of this district is public and is paid for with public tax dollars and don't let them say that well this is really a fee for private owners because you know damn well that that's going to be passed on to every renter every business occupant and this is the history of dids throughout the country the proposal privatizes control over the district size despite the fact that the court that the card charter currently gives that power to the city council to people who are responsible and accountable to us the proposal gives power to this private entity to delegate the proposal gives the council the power to delegate all of its powers which would mean writing laws which would be making things legal or illegal over the district to the entity that's insanity let me let me let me give my bullet points unfortunately i understand that i i i i i i got this i know there's a rebuttal and stuff i got like five pages let me just give you and these are my bullet points i mean which which are based on me having to go in bloody detail line by line so this is anti-democratic the giveaway is unnecessary they did not have to do this they did this at the behest of a faction of business people and they did not even they rushed this i came here last last month and said this was rushed they jammed this through the council thank you to councillor nodell who was one of the four who opposed this i wish that we had six because then we would have had seven i believe and others do that the that the passage will lead to gentrification and displacement of people and there is nothing in the in the provisions that allow the city to use any of the monies that they're going to raise to combat that so here we give this entity all this money that then causes all these rent increases and we as taxpayers if we want to mitigate that are going to have to pay again you know i wish i was uh going to be retired because i would rather not be doing this the thing is anti-union and anti-worker you know that they get a privatized good paying city jobs and they're going to allow under this proposal the right of the city to contract with the entity to perform public services in public buildings why not have this private entity take over maintenance of city hall park why not have a takeover maintenance of the bca building or city hall uh these shouldn't be in there but the fact of the matter is they are in there and the only way to stop them and not by the blank check that they want you which is trust us it won't happen bullshit okay i understand i don't want to diminish what you're doing all i'm saying this is a big proposal folks this is a big proposal i didn't write it so i just gotta go through one i gotta just say one more thing one more no i'm sorry because you gotta get you gotta get the full flavor of this otherwise this is just a snow job and the last thing is that we believe that this is going to turn the downtown into effectively disneyland homogenized and the whole culture of this thing is going to be for you and me and our kids to buy buy buy in fact in fort worth texas where they have one of these things there is a prohibition on folks being able to bring their own food into the plaza right because and they say the merchants nearby would appreciate your business jean we appreciate your business trust me and i don't want to be rude or diminish your wonderful detailed report but the mayor i'm sure wants to go point by point and keep us here till about midnight with all those wonderful and i'd be happy to come back on that as the first person i get but i get a lot of my time and we also want to give people out there questions beautiful okay thank you very much jean also that's jean bergman i'm sure he's welcome to hear anybody's comments on the side we're ready there let's go wow jean um well that is it that i was going to say it was a privilege to work with you for uh seven years on many many items i reappointed jean six or seven times uh two re-assistance city attorney and i have a lot of respect for jean and i think he's raised some points that should be debated and aired and i appreciate the forum for doing that i have to say i think almost nothing that he just told you is really fair or accurate and i will go through some of them but i think the basic technique you just heard there was along the lines of finding some ambulance chasing lawyer somewhere in the country and ascribing that all the sins of that person to all lawyers it's essentially there is a improvement district somewhere in the country that has turned for worth into disneyland and thus that's what's going to happen here in burlington and i think that is a far-fetched and really misleading and kind of scaremongering way to debate this and the fundamental thing that i would put in front of you is goes back to the very first statement and what is on this card which is there is this suggestion that this is the privatization of the downtown but if you listen carefully to jean he couldn't name a single public asset or a single city authority that is actually being divested to this entity it is true that the council has given ability to make decisions in the future about what what what jean let me you know we gave you a long i have no idea what you were just saying but the the the the that is a key point here is we are what is being proposed here is creating a new structure that would expand the active management of church street the church street marketplace which has served the city very well for 30 years and expand that active management to the entire downtown this is what the original founders of the church street marketplace wanted at the beginning and they're still around we can ask them bill trucks pat robbins and they came out and they told the city council this and this is in some ways fulfilling the instincts and the job that was laid out at the beginning and i think it's going to be a very very healthy thing for the future of the downtown which is what this is about we face new threats in our downtown it is a wonderful place we all love it i think we're fooling ourselves if we think that it's just going to continue on as it is without continue to innovate and change and expand the way we think about it the internet poses a fundamental threat to retail in downtown's we have our surrounding communities thank goodness getting their act together building walkable mixed-use neighborhoods finally i even out in south burlington the suburban land they're getting their selves together and and building these places that in some ways are like church street i have the potential to be like burlington's downtown and they are going to take away business and vitality from us if we don't change the tools we have the governance structures we have and try to respond what is being proposed here has been a great success really i mean i feel like okay i will wrap it up and but i think that's the fundamental question here and i would go back to the fact that anything that this new entity does that you don't like there will be great ability of future city councils and people to change course correction here in that this this entity is allowed to do virtually nothing virtually nothing that the city council does not approve it doing it the city council will approve its budget it will prove its management plan if it doesn't approve the initial management plan another inaccuracy is the church street nothing happens the church street marketplace unless the council is satisfied with the management structures that put in place the marketplace will continue on indefinitely until we get to a place that we feel good about this new entity so they're they're the the public retains enormous oversight authority over this entity going for a couple questions because two three questions and max and keep them trite because we do have another group of folks that would like to get up here um we'll start Emma sorry could someone give her uh uh well i'm pointing to Emma back there oh sorry well go ahead i'll take 20 seconds 20 seconds one the coalition for liberal city last month looked over this agreed that this is rushed incomplete it should and therefore should be you should say no and secondly have you talked if you talk to any small businessman in the downtown they'll say either they don't think it's a good idea or they're against it thank you tony Emma in the back and then we have also just quickly if we could be offering as many questions as possible so that this is helpful for people that'd be great as well yes Emma hi i'm Emma from war three i'm curious for the city councilors and the mayor so this large orange spot is basically the center of the public commons for burlington and i'm really curious the both our local economy and that whole area of burlington um work because of regular folks who go down and work in the retail and service industry so i'm just very curious how that big portion of our population the working people were thought of as developing the standards for did or the criteria for did um and just what how the city councilors and the mayor you incorporate that in your thinking as you set the priorities and the structures in place like our working people involved in the oversight are they consciously put in there are we creating wage you know uh lifting wages for people in this area to be able to be part of the other sides of the benefits that did just curious so i believe some place um there is a list of who would be on the board or commission or whatever and it was like nine property owners six business owners one resident owner or something what was the so maybe does does somebody that was so and i also this map shows just so people know what the borders are it i don't know if you can read it it's i guess it's and i don't know if this is updated one it's one i just found online it's the it's the um from lake shamblain to winewski from pearl to king street so do you know mary that the the details of the the adoption of the who the directors are on are on pages four and five of the official copy of the the ballot item and so but those are just the original ones right did you get that i think i well i think i understand the thrust of emma's question i mean in one sense um the the rules that apply the livable wage rules that apply to the city also apply to this this new entity so that's that's one way in which um that has been addressed um uh the uh i think at its at its core um what is being proposed here is um very mindful of the experience of living in burlington of working in burlington of being a property owner in burlington the idea is to strengthen those experiences in the way the church street market has strengthened the experience of all sorts of activities along the church street marketplace the essence is to try to improve that throughout the downtown so uh you know certainly the idea is that this new entity will be responsive to um the needs of uh of workers as as well as the needs of the other more general needs of the public okay i'm gonna move right sorry to keep going here hi um i have two questions um my first question is what was the thought process behind transferring um management of the d i d from the city council or the city to a non-profit entity and my second question is how did this um come to be on the ballot and um versus something like the um reconsideration of the park measure and why were those two different and how they got on the ballot great um so first question um i think people heard the question so why why how what is being transferred here so um today there's something called the church street marketplace which uh is in some sense a department of the city the department head is is an appointee of of the of the mayor approved by the city council um however that um there is a uh something called the church street marketplace commission which um makes a lot of the uh that essentially governs and oversees the the marketplace in in many ways they don't have statutory power they have a lot of informal authority they weigh in and guide a lot of what happens um essentially what is being transferred is that instead of having that advisory board um it will be this new nonprofit board that will will over will will will serve that role that's the change that's fundamentally happening here and this new board will have not just the marketplace as its purview but it will have that whole whole orange area um why is it being organized it proposes a nonprofit as opposed to city department a lot of that comes down to and that that is a really fair question that is the change that's happening here um there is a lot of um the the way in which we are proposing to do it is the way in which more than 95 percent maybe more than 98 percent of these uh improvement districts around the country and there are hundreds of these and they've generally been deemed by academics and many professional you know many independent assessments to be successful in many many ways some of them certainly have abuses and issues that we have been trying to be mindful of but almost all of them are organized in this way with a nonprofit board this and I will add just as having been the mayor for the last seven years there is I don't think the way this kind of gets down in the weeds and that's a minute time discussion of it but since you asked it so directly having I think decisions made through a nonprofit board to structure will have some advantages over the current structure where you have uh kind of a two masters situation where you have this board that is directly responsible for the fees and has a lot of strong opinions and you have the director of the marketplace accountable to that group and they are also accountable to the mayor and the city council who may not be in the flow of all those decisions and information and I I think it creates a lot of unnecessary tension I think having this new structure where the city is well represented with lots of members uh participating in these board discussions as ex-officio members I think I think that will work better um just a question so uh this is a 501c6 it is not that has not been determined there was an earlier draft that that listed that that is the way in which many of these have been structured there was concerns about whether a business association was the way that it was wanted I believe so like it so I think it was changed and left more open and to yeah I just believe team one of the late changes was to make it uh you know something that will be determined in that management plan so it's that has not been determined yet it could be a 501c6 it could also be one of these other types of night so it will be a non-profit exactly the form of non-profit is so uh we're going to have to wrap it up so um so I really think we should talk to gene gene is a wealth of information and he's just dreaming to give it to you and I hate to cut it you off it seems like there's a lot of nebulous things and we're just about to vote on something that seems like it could be very important as the mayor has stated um that a lot of nebulousness so we should probably talk to gene and the mayor because I'm sure they'd love to talk and we can all get I'm sorry what can we have a straw hole oh you know we don't want the mayor to feel like everything he does is awful because I hear I hear there's several things he does that are wonderful maybe make a great souffle or something like that but no you know thank you for gene and the mayor for bringing us through those really weedy areas of the detritus of the ballot items um we're going to start we're going to move right along um I believe everyone is here for our little debate if you will a very stool would you like a stool we set chairs up would you rather not we can do stools I don't know if we have stools oh schools we'll move right along to the school committee yeah because if the forum were first and then we got up we know everybody would probably leave so I'm gene walls I am on the ballot again um just in case that seems a little weird I replace somebody special election in August so yes four months later or so I gotta do this again once again running in a pose please vote for me anyway thank you and I'm Liz Curry I'm the ward three commissioner gene is our district commissioner so we're going to talk about the budget um I saw the spoiler alert earlier they put this up twice like giving away our secrets um so we've got a um budget of 65,378 and um there's a lot of numbers up here but basically we're going to let you know that um the important things are the school tax increase is 4.83 percent for um about a $250,000 average value house and um if you're a income sensitized taxpayer which is another word for renter by the way no homeowners this is all property tax but if you there is people who pay based on income and if they right right but if you so it's all homestead value it's all homeowners this is all for your homeowners if you pay if you're a renter it's likely that your property owner will raise your rent because their taxes go up but this is for property owners who um have an income if you're under 90,000 you pay 100% of the homestead value income based tax if you're between 90 and 120,000 there's kind of a graduated tax we're probably making spam out of this our legislators are probably going oh my god don't let the school commissioners explain the education fund but but let's us get through let's us get through like if you pay your property tax your education property tax based on your income your it will go up like five dollars if you pay your education property tax based on your for your value it will go up by about um $16 a month so there's that the good news is this budget achieves a lot of um goals that we have not been able to achieve over the past five years since I've been on the board we have added about 21 educational positions in a lot of different areas including English language learning and um some at the high school we're trying to go to a proficiency based learning system so that's evaluating students based on their proficiency not just like testing out and going to the next grade and just kind of doing the industrial school model thing so we're trying to make that transition this will actually create a position for the first time to help redesign curriculum delivery to go to a proficiency model that is also a state law requirement and this budget gives us the ability to do that so I'll just share those two exciting things and basically what we're talking about essentially is the per pupil amount which is about six something six point something percent more than it was last year and one of the one of the things I looked up just to put it into perspective um in Chittenden County we're low we used to be second to last now we're well that so the per pupil spending is the amount it's called the equalized per pupil so there's a formula that Vermont uses and they calculate the amount that each district spends on an equalized per pupil basis and we it's about ten thousand dollars per per pupil well that's a different figure ten thousand is the dollar yield that the state has determined and then each school district gets to decide how much more or less you know they have to spend at least ten thousand dollars and then everybody else gets to decide how much more in addition to that amount per pupil that's a good point that's what we're that's what we're voting on that's the part we're voting on and what's exciting is that five years ago when I joined the board we spent about thirteen thousand something on an equalized per pupil and now we're spending sixteen thousand something or we want to we want to if you support the budget which will give us all these instructional positions to help on our academic achievement gap goals and our proficiency proficiency learning goals and to put it into perspective that's about the middle ground for all of Vermont so out of the 250 something school districts we're about 137 but that's what we are currently I don't know what everybody else is going to vote for on Tuesday so March 5th so maybe we'll be 138 I don't know okay in the interest of keeping this moving can we take a couple questions sorry you guys are moving we've been talking for two minutes you've been talking for five thank you we'll take a couple we have more numbers we have more numbers questions any questions there are no questions one we'll take one more yeah this is a whole presentation so you go to bsd.org district budget and then you'll see all the budget data certainly more numbers regarding the uh the bug the budget the per pupil spending can you just give a quick response and you might have already said this what is it statewide like the average oh I don't know the average it's about it's about 15 so to just give you an idea like CVU and STO and MMU see any patterns there like 18,000 per student we are now at 16 which is great Milton is like at 11 so we're lower we are lower per pupil spending for equalized per pupil and the equalizes key because that's the modifier that is based on the number of EL students and special ed students and students who have needs for educational enhancements that modifies the per pupil so can you give an idea of why that per pupil spending it's it's lower but can you give us an idea of return on investment like what what are we getting for that and why you know why should we spend that here in Burlington I mean I know that we have like probably a higher rate of I'll tell you why diverse students which is why I live here but I would love to hear from you yeah about that so the thing about having a strong educational system that offers a lot of opportunities for kids is that it means people want to live here in our community and you know look to the schools really as the gathering place for families that brings people together and connects families and neighborhoods and you know contributes to a robust healthy community and schools are a place where we can invest in you know healthy families healthy kids and our goal and our challenge is to direct those resources to the kids who don't have access to those opportunities and don't have you know there's an opportunity gap and it's huge and this budget will help to close the opportunity gap for one of the first times in it that I've been on the board in five years since we crashed financially and that were on the rebound thank you we have one more question and we're going to wrap it up so I want to start by saying that I'm going to vote yes and support the school board because when the school budget goes down it's not a good thing and it only hurts the kids but I want to express a concern that you may not be able to address today but I think it needs to be on your mind going forward as well as on the city's consciousness which is that it's my understanding that we're about to go through a reassessment which means that our property values are going to be reassessed so all the property in Burlington which hasn't been assessed in a long time I don't know the exact number technically has increased in value so that means that the percentage of tax everyone's going to be paying on property is going to go up and so someone's shaking their head at me but okay so that's not going to happen taxes aren't going to go up after a reassessment okay so it's complicated right but but the point is taxes property values will go up which means the amount of the value of our home that this is applied to is going to be higher so our taxes our taxes are not going to go up so you know what would be helpful if someone from the city would come and talk with us about the potential impact of the reassessment because I was told that I should prepare for a tax increase no even if we have level funding so so the thing there's a whole calculation there which 10 or 12 years ago last time it was reassessed there was a different property tax base the basis on which the taxes were generated now there's new property there's different types of property there's been development so they will see kind of a redistribution I you know I'm sure there's like people here could explain exactly though how it works but I think the idea is that the educational property tax which is different than the municipal property tax um will there will be a shift so that the school tax stops carrying the burden or the penalty associated with not reassessing which is more complicated but overall that is a totally separate municipal tax conversation not to be confused with the school tax conversation I think we're out of time for the school tax at the next mta meeting maybe we'll put you on the agenda thank you guys for being good sports about it we gave you 15 minutes okay we're going to move on to our central district city council conversation but before we do that I want to ask everyone can you all just stand up and take a big deep breath it's almost eight o'clock and I asked that our candidates come up to the stage please okay folks thank you does everybody feel a little bit better rested start thinking of questions so I'm going to go I'm going to go over the the format of our city council forum again this is for central district both wards two and three we're going to start by going uh going down the line of candidates each candidate will have one minute opening and closing statements and then we're going to open the floor as much as possible for questions I ask you guys please to think of questions if you have an idea try to write it down try to get as concise as possible and you are free to address one of the candidates directly however each candidate will have the chance to respond to that question the format is up on the on the wall behind everybody um candidates please feel free to ask qualifying or clarifying questions we'll allow time for that and I believe oh here we go Jim is here with the time cards you'll see a sign for two minutes one minute 30 seconds and 15 seconds so everybody say hi to Jim I'll also be mic running back here so if you want to get a mic to ask a question you can signal to me and I will find you can everybody see Emma in the front say hi Emma okay and so the last so just quickly so please please please be polite to all the candidates please clap silently so as to not cut into the candidates time to answer the questions keep keep your questions short one minute or less please um that said this can be a dialogue if you feel the candidate has not understood your question or answer your question or is pivoting from your question feel free to follow up questions can be directed to a particular candidate all candidates will have an opportunity to answer each question answers can be two to three minutes depending on the complexity of the question required um candidates need to keep an eye on the timekeeper hey everybody Jane Nodell I'm running as an independent and I've been on the council for some time and over time I've come to see my job as really making life better for people that I represent especially the most vulnerable and marginalized people in our community so some things I've done in the last two years I've been very very active with the Janet S. Munt family room that meets right over there that their future was was in question after they were split off from the from the visiting nurse association I got engaged with them board and advocated for them inside city hall seniors I'm chairing a senior center study committee that's going to save the new north end senior center and expand and enhance senior services across the city dumpster days I got money for the dumpster days where people can dispose of their items free of charge on this on the taxpayers bill recycle environmentally and reuse household goods and finally jobs and people I got funding with other counselors for an updated jobs and people study which is an essential first step for a true people first economic development strategy this has been a lively evening um hi everyone um my name is perry freeman thank you all for being here tonight happy valentine's day um I am here to introduce myself as the progressive candidate for central district city council and you know I'm running because I believe in the values of equity of fairness of really you know believing that everyone deserves a seat at the table and right now we have the reality is we have a rigged economy we are in the midst of a global climate crisis and we have a government that doesn't really represent the needs and the desires of the people and does not address those former issues so as a city counselor I would like to bring urgency to climate action to fair wages and you know fair working conditions and um to really uh a fair and transparent and open democracy and so I really appreciate you all being here tonight at this forum um we've had already a really lively evening I hope it continues to be lively and um yeah I just look forward to hearing how I can ensure that your voices and the voices of all our neighbors can be heard and represented in city hall thank you so much here this one isn't working at all you ready jim all right jared carter uh uh I'm running for central district city council as well surprise uh as as the democrat uh and uh I was on my way in here and I saw that Donald Trump was about to declare a national emergency uh and I am here to declare a municipal emergency uh and I mean that only with a slight amount of jest we have a hole in the ground in the middle of burlington we've sold off burlington telecom to the highest bidder we have new americans struggling to feed their families in the old north end and that is not what leadership is about that is not a vision for this city that has made us exceptional and I want to see all of us come together through stronger mpa's to build the city that we can all believe in we might not agree on every issue but I think we can all agree on our creed that is when we come together in groups like this we can accomplish anything thank you thank you folks for your opening statements with that we're going to open it up to the floor for questions can we get an initial uh set of hands people that have questions um okay Emma will be running mics um when you do get the mic uh there's a little switch on the side just push it up when you're talking and turn it off afterwards quick question uh inclusionary zoning I understand is a review of it just wondering your thoughts on what you see this how it plays into the future of the city yeah yeah great question I think um we certainly have uh zoning issues in this city and I think what is at the heart of this question to me is how can we build more or how can we provide rather more affordable housing I don't think we are going to build our way out of this problem I don't think there's space doesn't really matter what we do with the zoning laws we're not going to build our way out of the affordable housing crisis what we've got to look at I think to improve the process and improve the availability of folks that live in this community is to look at ways we can stabilize rent and ways that we can educate tenants about their rights we can we can build all sorts of new new housing we can change zoning laws we can change rental laws but if we aren't educating people and the city should play a role in this about their rights as tenants all of that is for not and there's great programs that exist right now there's a there's a legal clinic that I'm involved with often on Saturday mornings that offers this but I think the city can take a leadership role uh in in in strengthening the availability of of housing for folks and I think that's what my priorities would be in terms of how do we look at at zoning how do we look at availability how do we look at educating people thank you um yeah so I think you know inclusionary zoning is um you know as Jared is saying it's a great start to um figuring out this piece of the puzzle of how we're going to provide affordable housing um for for folks living in the city and um you know the reality is that um those units which it's you know 60 percent AMI it's about 15 to 20 percent of new construction and um that's only um getting us really so far right when we have those units um being at about 800 to what is I think a thousand a unit and when we look at the requirement for workforce housing it's around more like uh $500 a month is um is what is affordable so um you know I'm very interested in um looking at how we can continue to improve upon the inclusionary zoning um policy and and uh you know continue to sort of advance that and then um beyond that I mean I think my where I've seen you know this is generally I think a cushion about housing and where I've seen a real area that we can expand as a renter is just um organizing as renters um I am very interested I've talked to a lot of people around the city about um like the creation of a tenants union and um just working towards really how we can um be in a place of power as renters um to come to that table and negotiate um because we do really have um what is kind of a you know an out of control rental market that's not affordable it's 60 percent of the city are renters um and I believe over half of them are rent burdened um so I appreciate the question thank you so the city's inclusionary zoning law requires developers with projects with more than five units to provide between 15 and 25 percent of those units to be affordable in a way that's defined by the law over the last year there's been an inclusionary working group that has been working hard to um update the law to make it fit our current conditions in burlington um and I chaired this committee and it was a mixed committee of private sector non-profit sector housing developers housing advocates and city staff and myself and we came up with the consensus proposal that got the support of everyone on that that that wide span of of points of view around a proposal that I believe is going to start to bring an end to class-based residential segregation that we have in the city of burlington and start to open up all of burlington's neighborhoods some of which are exclusively zoned single family housing and that is intrinsically exclusionary and it is time to bring make that change and that is not going to be easy because many people don't like that that live in these neighborhoods but it is time and if I'm go back I'm this is something that's going to be a very high priority for me the proposal that went from this group to the city council and is now with the planning commission and was discussed there this week will also I believe pump significant more resources into the housing trust fund which is where we produce deeply affordable permanently affordable housing through the third sector of social housing and that is what is going to I think in the long run meet the needs of people who are living and really trying to make things work on very limited wages so I heard mr. Carter say we can't build our way out you can build your way out if you build those social perpetually affordable units we have to do that the other part of it is that if that when you have higher vacancy rates that increases tenants bargaining power with landlords and I believe that's an important part of the solution thank you Jane a point of note you each took about you you took your full time you each took about a minute and a half so we're going to adjust your responses to about two minutes each that seems to be about a natural medium next question please we'll start with Perry on this one hello okay my name is Julie I they kind of took the question that I had so I guess I'll switch it up a little bit I'm curious to know what each of you plan to do to address climate change and not just sort of surface level greenwashed stuff that's you know not really getting us to the goals we need to get to but like what do you actually want to do on the local level about climate change since it's not really being addressed at the state or even the national level thanks yeah absolutely thank you Julie for that question yeah so I think in terms of climate action you know three easy bullets are revolutionizing our transportation sector system you know weatherizing our buildings and resolving the inefficiencies that we have at the McNeil plant which I could go into so yeah to the point of to the point of greenwashing I think in terms of transit something that to me feels like is looking at the intersection of how class and environmental issues are dealt with is really talking about how we can potentially move towards a subsidized transit system that's expansive and that also provides routes regular routes so that working people can actively use it to get to work so I think that's a big point within that and you know in terms of weatherizing our buildings I think you know this is a huge aspect in terms of becoming more efficient and that's something that we can engage with in terms of property owners and incentivizing or pushing them to do that as well and then beyond that the McNeil plant I mean this is functioning at 24% efficiency I think that you know in terms of the the studies that have been shown that we can use a you know a heating you know district heating is a really positive way to really yeah work towards having having sustainability in our heating sector so yeah I'm not I mean I'd be curious you know what if any of those things specific I mean to the the greenwashing effect I think really being sensitive to class and looking at the intersection of class and environmental action is is where we see kind of pushing back and dismantling that aspect of greenwashing actually can we go to Jane next please great question okay so it's two minutes the I think number one we need to reduce our dependence on single occupancy vehicles that represents obviously a lot of consumption of fossil fuels and is also degrading our air quality I agree that improved mass transit is essential to that we need more frequent buses so that people more people will use the bus instead of driving their car that will build demand for mass transit and lead to more affordable mass transit we need to get onto that virtuous cycle and that may require some kind of initial subsidy but we should be realistic because green mountain transit this year has an almost one million dollar deficit in its operating budget so there's some fundamental issues there around around funding I've been a big supporter of district energy I've pushed the mayor and Burlington Electric about using the downtown project to advance district energy and in fact you need large users in order to make district energy work and the downtown project could potentially be such a major user that could make district energy work and that's very exciting finally energy efficiency in my second kind of years on the city council I was on the ordinance committee and shared it when we passed the time of sale energy efficiency ordinance that requires when apartment buildings change ownership they're required to bring the building up to a high energy efficiency standard and maybe time to go back and revisit that standard maybe standard should be higher but these are all issues that I've worked with so my summary would be been there done that if I'm reelected we'll keep on doing it great great question I really haven't heard much about this I heard some some good ideas and I would say I agree with pretty much everything that was said what I would add though and I think we have a unique opportunity if you look at the data energy efficiency in terms of bang for our buck we have limited resources as a city as an as a state to invest and rather than investing in more buses perhaps or more energy efficient vehicles which are all good things I think you'll get a much better return on investment in terms of real impacts on on emissions if we look at strengthening our weatherization programs above and beyond what what counselor and Odell is talking about and I think at the city level we could do a much better job educating again tenants about what's out there what's available what their rights are and so I think there's a real intersection there between economic justice and environmental justice I've rented in this in this community for a long time in many different places and I've had as a general rule pretty solid landlords but I had lots of leaky windows lots of leaky doors and we need to figure out how to plug those gaps I think if we do that we're going to solve an economic justice and an environmental justice issue in one effective and efficient swoop okay thank you we'll take the next question and in this question will go Jane then Jared then Perry I live in ward one so I'm thanking you for allowing me to even ask a question to this august body I am though I've always had offices and clinics and so forth in this area I do a free legal clinic every Saturday morning from 10 to 12 and I see mainly the residents of this community that come in with real legal problems and I'll tell you what they are and I would ask the questions what are you going to do about them the main problem I see is domestic violence and that is domestic violence against women largely some men come in and they are also victims but largely it is women and it's women having other problems as well domestic violence lack of child support abuse even sexual violence and I don't see any improvement in that and I've been an attorney in this city and in this neighborhood for 40 years perhaps and I don't see any real attention paid on the part of the city or indeed most people in the city to those sorry facts and the other problem that I see over and over is landlord tenant problems and the main problem that I see as a people being illegally evicted and regardless of what councilor nodel says or Miss Perry or Jared those problems only increase I don't know what is happening in the city but there certainly is an increase in evictions there's lots of disinformation to tenants they don't think they have any rights so I would like to ask you all what are you doing about those two or what will you do about the problems of violence against women in particular in all kinds of ways including financial and also what are we really doing about the fact that people poor people are losing their homes all the time in this city that is supposed to be so just thank you Sandy thank you for all your work on behalf of of people who are in tough situations and need need legal assistance on on domestic violence I think you know it's a multi-pronged response we have to have we have to empower women economically there are by through through having gender equity in wage structures just for one within the city the city can be a model employer in that regard we we could do more I think that the police department does a reason is is is relatively effective at at enforcing laws against against violence that the men or men or women are are committing against others against their partners I believe our police department has a pretty good record in that regard and then on just on on evictions maybe it's time to go back and look at just cause eviction again that is a chart of change that would be a fight but it always made sense to me and it's been a while since we tried it great thanks sandy I think the first thing I would say is we've got to recognize that violence against women is not something that happens in faraway places and and and we need to recognize and not circle the wagons when it rears its ugly head here in our community and call a spade a spade and and that means again acknowledging when it appears and not simply pretending that it's a problem elsewhere I think in addition to economic independence that Jane talked about doing that's going to help bring this out of the shadows I think there's a real stigma I've done pro bono legal work with women helping battered women and other organizations and in my experience there's a real stigma that that women feel around this issue and I think and we as a community recognize it for what it is in our community that's gonna that's gonna make a real difference in terms of tenant rights and evictions this has been an issue I've worked on tirelessly over the years as an attorney and an advocate here in the community and I think if you look at the very bottom of the economic heap I'm partnering with the ACLU of Vermont right now in a challenge to our fair cities homeless camp removal policy which in my view is a complete abomination and a violation of the constitutional rights of our most vulnerable victims when people's tents I mean we're talking about that type of tenant when their tents are confiscated and thrown away their bikes confiscated and I have clients that have suffered this and thrown away that is simply unacceptable that is a moral outrage at its very basest level and so I would fight for those people as a city counselor as well and continue to bring that advocacy to the fore. Thank you so much Sandy for asking this question the issue of violence against women has been something I've been thinking about a lot the last few days I can't say that really a single one of my friends has not been affected in some ways by violence or abuse or harassment myself included. I went to Antioch College Antioch was the first college in the U.S. to create a formalized affirmative consent policy back in the 90s way before its time way before the current wave of the Me Too movement I think it was shocking to me to realize it's like an 18 and 19 year old that no one had ever even taught me about consent ever literally and so I think to me it just really articulated the need to have education around consent and around healthy and I mean I would always advocate for this to be mandatory in Vermont schools to have you know mandatory consensual sexual education and sexual health and here in Burlington I really do think it's a huge part of the problem is that we have so little education around this I think to Jane's point you know economic equity is a huge aspect to you know improving violence against women specifically and then beyond that you know as a renter and I've seen a lot of friends struggle with eviction I you know I also agree that we should be pushing for just cause eviction policy and I would really yeah I would really like to organize as renters I want to you know like I've said I've talked to a lot of friends about creating a tenants union and I think that this is a really good avenue for working towards that end thank you we'll take the next question hi I'm just wondering if you each of you could discuss the tools of municipal government that you would look at for alternatives to the property tax for funding basic city services can we just have the question repeated sure could you discuss the tools of municipal government that you would look to so what do we have on the books we don't have to go to the legislature for a charter change but what can we do now to find alternatives to the property tax to fund basic city services it's a good question and it's something that is important to do in that and the city of Burlington has done this over the past decades so just to frame it a little bit people want high level of services you know we've added staff to public works so that when we're so that we're doing more projects and there's more people at public staff at public works who can work with the community to help the community identify what solutions they need for their street to deal with traffic calming and so forth that's just one example so people want the police officers to be in the community and on foot and really developing relations with the people these are all high quality public services but we need to pay for them in an affordable way without overly relying on the property tax the increase on this year's budget is very very modest and had I think unanimous support from the city council but over time we can't just keep on increasing property taxes so one way that we in the past have done this is by by creating something called a franchise fee on utilities because the university and the medical center that that don't pay property taxes they do consume a lot of electricity and they pay franchise fees and that helps spread the burden to these large institutions we also have a gross receipts tax which is the tax on essentially the hospitality sector and so that people who visit brollington who have the who are able to rent you know kind of stay in a nice hotel they're paying a gross receipts tax that goes to the city so that we can maintain city services without always going back to the property tax so those are just two examples and I think that we should I think that we had a conversation with the CAO and the mayor and there's a commitment to continuing to look for more as we move forward one idea that I liked that came out of last year's town meeting day was the I believe it was like a 1% luxury tax on properties valued over 500 thousand and on the sale of that and that would have generated 350 thousand dollars and I believe that was intended the folks who put that together was intended to go potentially towards like the housing trust but you know those are it's just an example of yeah 350 thousand dollars a 1% luxury tax that outside of but you know a charter change so you know things like like we don't have a municipal income tax for example that would require a charter change so but yeah I that was something that I helped work on sort of tangentially I was excited that counselor pine brought that forward last year and that's something I would absolutely support yeah I think I agree with the sentiment and I think probably many of us do that middle-class working people elderly young people trying to start families in our community are taxed extremely high rates when compared to perhaps other places in the country and so I think if we're whatever we're going to look at for specific solutions has to target those among us who are the most fortunate and can afford to give back to a community that has given them so much and so certainly looking at luxury taxes of the type Perry described I think we could look even broader than that in terms of other large ticket items that people that have significant disposable income purchase second cars I'm not sure whether it would require a a charter change or not but I think we could in some cities and states have done taxes on particular services that folks of the higher income brackets take advantage of so say expensive legal services I'm a lawyer I probably shouldn't admit that although almost all of my work is done pro bono I think we could look at other other services again that are going to be very strategic and and target only the the highest income earners and the most most wealthy among us okay thank you we'll take the next question and this one will go Perry Jared Jane and then just a quick time check we have two more questions after that and then we'll go to closing remarks hello Vincent Pierce I live over on Clark Street and my question is kind of looking at the city's relationship with the University of Vermont and Champlain College obviously two huge economic drivers in the city two huge employers but also I think they tend to compound sorry compound some of our issues that we're seeing in the city with the quality of housing rents things like that I'm curious as they continue to increase their enrollment and intend continue to kind of expand their footprint you have you know the development on st paul that will be housing solely for Champlain College students I'm curious what y'all would do to ensure that they continue to be good partner with the city and don't compound some of these issues that we're dealing with and will likely continue to deal with in the future thank you absolutely thank you for that question so yeah something I've heard a lot about is the character of the of neighborhoods especially neighborhoods that are close to UVM I know on some of those streets there's maybe only one or two long-term residents and so something that's interested me I was looking into this and I was reading an article about sort of what has been called like this studentification of the neighborhood and the ratio that was proposed in this study that I was looking at was like 25 percent of a neighborhood is a really ideal amount of students to sort of build out a healthy character for a neighborhood and so I think this aspect of yeah some of the compounding issues is the fact that like UVM and Champlain and UVM especially is not really housing its students and a lot of that housing that they're already providing is not really affordable as well so I really yeah would look to the city in our role to really push for them to provide student housing and student housing that's affordable so that we can kind of try to get back to that 25 percent ratio and then beyond that you know just within those development projects and those contracted you know just make sure that those large-scale developments are really taking into account the city as a whole benefiting every day you know sort of just folks regular folks who live and work here and and and yeah thanks appreciate the question one question I do have is I when I was in college I don't remember such an infatuation with fireworks I hear lots of UVM students near where I live launching fireworks at all hours of the night so first of all I think we've got to do something about fireworks within city limits but that aside I would just recognize that what's that drum circles are okay fireworks no I would just recognize that that look we've got a and I think we have perhaps done a pretty good job I think we could strengthen this we've got to build relationships here these universities and these colleges are a big part of what makes Burlington thrive right they're a big part you like that Sandy they're a big part of what make Burlington thrive and we've got to recognize that so with with the difficulties I can put up with some fireworks because these folks these students are down here spending their money at restaurants at music venues at eateries and really making it the vibrant community that that we all love on the other hand the housing issue is a crisis it's a municipal emergency okay I might not have the authority to declare one just yet but I think we're in crisis mode and so one of the things I think we can do if you look at nationally the state of Vermont funds higher education at one of if not the lowest rates in the country and so I think we can we can push respectfully our legislative delegation and our and our use the bully pulpit to push the legislature to increase funding to higher ed so that maybe they have a more of a capacity and we could attach strings to it even a capacity to build out on-campus housing and and I think that's going to reduce some of the problems we've talked about without risking the vibrancy that all of these wonderful students from all over the country and all over the world it's awesome bring bring to the bring to the city let's use it uvm professor I'm delighted to hear that Jared likes the university of Vermont and see is all it's what it brings to the community obviously creates a lot of problems in the housing market the Champlain Champlain College actually does house all of its students uvm does not and so the housing on St. Paul Street you could see it as taking demand away from the private market although many of those students I think came from Manuski and not Burlington but still that's why we want the universities and colleges to build their own housing is that it frees up the rest of the housing stock for other people I think the Trinity campus up at uvm is is a is a potential place to build more housing for uvm students city would have to need to change the zoning but I think that that potentially could be very could be could be part of the of the solution I don't see because of declining numbers of high school students in the northeast I would be very surprised if enrollments increased dramatically at either institution but we're still at a place where where there's too much student demand on the on the housing so I would just add one more thing which is to say that as I've been trying I try to find ways to connect my life on the that on campus to what I've done as a city counselor and one thing I just wanted to mention is that I've created an internship class where students and I teach economics help people fill out their federal tax returns at CV OEO and also at Heineberg senior center because there are lots of benefits that are embedded in the federal tax code so if you don't know how to access them you don't get them like the the the earned income tax credit so there are lots of ways to build positive connections thank you so actually my question is specifically for councilperson nodell so you said something earlier that was not correct and I'd like to give you a chance to re-answer the question you said that you thought that the burlington police department was doing a good job of addressing domestic violence and that's just not true one of my friends had the cops called on her while her boyfriend was attacking her recently and the police officer asked her in front of him if he was hurting her which I think you can probably figure out why that wasn't an effective way for them to respond to the situation that's just what that happened two weeks ago this happens over and over again and I think that relying on the police to address domestic violence is especially considering the number of police officers who commit domestic violence is a terrible idea so I'd like I'd like you to answer that question again with a little bit more thought I I'm sorry to hear about that incident I've heard I've looked at data that suggests that there are much instances of much better police response clearly you know police enforcing laws is just a one very small part of the problem of addressing the problem of domestic violence but I do think it has to be part of the problem it's a public safety and public health challenge that requires you know addressing it on multiple levels as I indicated in my earlier answer thank you for bringing that up Wiley the yeah that that statistic of I think it's you know officers are twice as likely to be domestic abusers as a regular population it's absolutely an issue it's something that I've had frustration with I had a just work trying to work with police departments to resolve issues of sexual violence and domestic violence is so frustrating in the US it's just not effective I've tried to call I've tried to for friends on behalf of friends it's it's incredibly frustrating the only time that I actually had an effective relation interaction with police in regards to harassment and violence was when I was in Iceland which has a completely different you know their police are completely disarmed and they haven't had like a someone die a civilian die from police brutality and like maybe one person in 15 years and it was handled in a way that and in the degree the the instance that I was bringing forth was such a was so much it was amazing how much more seriously they took it compared to what I was trying to do back here in the US years before so yeah I definitely see that as a as a serious concern so I appreciate you bringing that up yeah I don't think there's too many people and and I see the mayor's still here so he might be able to vouch for this that have used tried to use the power of the law to enforce the civil rights and constitutional rights of burlingtonians vis-a-vis government authority and and the police so it might come as a surprise that that I'm actually a real supporter of many of the things that law enforcement are doing in burlington I'm thrilled when they come and knock on my door just to introduce themselves usually I'm like oh my goodness I must be doing something wrong why are you here but they're they're there to introduce themselves as part of I think this community policing approach however and I think this is really important this goes to your point we must hold law enforcement to account I think we need to strengthen oversight of the police department in this city as a constitutional rights lawyer as a civil rights attorney it is simply unacceptable to accept anything less than a full and complete vindication of all burlingtonians constitutional and civil rights vis-a-vis police authority and I think that the current oversight model is is is quite ineffective doesn't provide sufficient checks on the authority of law enforcement look nobody likes to have law enforcement come into their home but it's really important that we have adequate oversight and I think in quite all honesty growing the strength of NPAs to engage in in oversight issues and things like community policing at the neighborhood level is one way that we might look at harnessing all of your energy to help provide that check because I'm sick of going to court to argue civil rights cases I want to go on offense and I think what I mean by that is coming up with better ways to oversee the police even though of course they're doing a difficult job day in and day out I recognize that but as citizens we've got to demand more and we as I said in the beginning together can come up with those solutions and we'll take the last question then then go to opening remarks closing remarks thank you do black lives matter the black lives matter I didn't who did where did the question come from yeah absolutely my afro-cuban wife is sitting right behind you and so I understand at the most visceral level what it means to be a minority in this community and and what folks face on a daily basis and and and I think we need to do everything we can and this gets back to the importance and how I approach all of these problems as a constitutional and civil rights attorney we need to do everything we can from using the courts uh to litigate when necessary from using the streets to march when necessary and that includes the church street marketplace which I certainly hope maintains itself as a public space where we can continue to march for the rights of all and advocate for the the basic principle that black lives absolutely matter and I don't mean to get angry about this but it's darn important and that's why at at bottom to me this whole conversation about the d id is so critical because those rights are fundamental and when we're talking about black lives matter we're talking about constitutional and civil rights to autonomy to to liberty to to living in a safe and inclusive community to be free from uh racial ethnic bias all those things are are constitutional principles that I hold dear and so I appreciate you bringing up that question and and and I think my track record of advocacy as a lawyer and an advocate uh uh I'll stand on thank you yes black lives matter um as a city how can a city counselor take that into her work I think a couple different ways and we'll let's keep going with with the policing we need a strong fair and impartial policing policy in the city of Burlington and we need an effective mechanism for overseeing that policy we've been working on fair and impartial policing and we are having a conversation about the police commission there is a citizen complaint process that the police commission has set up they're strengthening it and it provides I think pretty effective oversight of incidents so if anyone is unhappy with how the police handle something I encourage you to use that citizen complaint process because the commission actually looks at the video of the incident and they ask questions about why officers did what they did and I think we need to let this system see how how it can work um we have a something that's very close to a sanctuary city policy I'll put that in quotes um and that's also protecting brown people and black people who are trying to just have a life that they where they can be safe from the threat of violence um we need to do more on fair housing access to do away with housing discrimination that's another area where black lives matter if you don't have the ability to choose where you can want to you can live based on your race you are being deprived of some very basic rights we have a fair housing project I think I think we have the institutions in place we need to use them my colleague professor Stig Ciguino has done work on traffic stops we still have a problem with racial bias in in traffic stops we're working on it we're not there yet but I think we're working on it thank you for that question um yes I mean yes black lives matter unfortunately in the systems that we have currently in institutions um we're just not doing enough to support um folks of color so um one thing that's frustrated me immensely um in a lot of like the town hall meetings or around different development projects or um design projects is um constantly uh recommendation that we just increase policing um in our community which has really just caused me like I'm literally scratching my head right now um to really scratch my head because you know like I I mean I was going to school during um when black lives matter and those protests across the country were erupting due to police brutality and so it just really makes me wonder and we I mean as I think um councilor Nodale just said you know we do have we know that um black and brown folks are pulled over at eight you know eight to ten times more than their white counterparts so it's really shocking to me to hear people say that we need to increase policing and that's going to make us more safe I don't know who that us is but I think that a lot of people like um people experiencing chronic houselessness or mental health issues or black and brown folks are not being made more safe through increased policing and I know that some of the suggestions have been made around having community policing but the research that I've done on that um has shown that that is not an effective measure um to reduce police brutality um or unfair policing practices um I've talked with a few folks about the um work that some counselors have tried to do in the past to create the community oversight review board and that's um kind of lost momentum um that's something that I would really like to revisit um as a city counselor is how we can bring momentum back to that um and then um yeah yeah I think I'm trying to remember if there was any there was one more point I don't think I don't think so but um yeah those absolutely I mean it's it's been very frustrating it's been frustrating to watch the conversations around um the mural as well um so we need to do a lot on this on this topic this issue okay thank you folks for your questions we're going to go to closing remarks and we'll start with Perry yes one minute closing remarks just going back up okay um yeah thank you all so much again for being here tonight and sticking out I don't even know what time it is it's past nine maybe and it's really late um yeah uh you know I really I just really appreciate all the input that I've been able to hear from all of you tonight to hear about the issues um that you're concerned about and that you'd like to see addressed um you know by your by your city council I've um had the opportunity to door knock pretty much every day since the caucus and talk to thousands of people across the district I think a lot of the issues that you all are bringing here tonight are being echoed by people at their doors it's also been a real opportunity to see um you know to see some of those issues that I you know kind of brought up initially which is like you know the fact that we have a rigged economy so there's immense inequity um some folks talk about um that there's invisible poverty but we just simply don't um as an organizer it's just so apparent um all the time that we need to address these issues so I yeah you know I'd really like to work towards um improving these and continuing to hear your input in terms of the issues that we can address um here in the city thank you I want to thank Perry and Jared for a great debate and all the great questions um I will I just want to talk a little bit about all the great things that are happening with the initiative of the people in this room there's a lot of community based entrepreneurship going on to make life better in the old north end and in downtown let's think about the old north end art center um big heavy world the old north end art and business network um helping and nurturing diverse seniors I mean a lot of the I see the work of a city counselor is fostering this kind of these community organizations that are really trying to dress the problems that we that we have government can't do it all but government can be a strong partner with the with the community initiatives that are that are going on already and I think this is you know where I can bring my experience my knowledge of how city government works to really um make make change in the old north end and downtown great thanks to both of you and thanks to all of you for sitting through a long night it's definitely past my bedtime so I'll be quick in this 60 seconds that I have um I think Jane's absolutely right that government can't do everything uh but what government can do and what inspirational government can do and what NPAs and the light can do is set the tone and that's what my campaign and all the doors I've knocked on I've talked about had great conversations with folks about is setting that tone that says Burlington leads I think we're at a crossroads in this city and in this country uh but in Burlington we have a real opportunity to re-establish ourselves as a state and national and international leader by having government not solve all the problems but set the tone by investing in people not profits not out of state corporations by protecting public assets like Burlington telecom like the downtown marketplace and by maintaining a city government that is uh uh uh co-equal branches constitutional rights and civil liberties protected and I apologize for running late uh it's been a pleasure to chat with it thank you everybody for your questions and thank you candidates thank you for uh and a special thank you to James Lockridge our timekeeper as well as Emma uh for queuing up question we yeah we have two quick announcements and then we're going to give maybe two minutes of peace for the for the last couple ballot questions and we're done on the 23rd which is next Saturday I'm having a forum here on renters rights and tenants rights and landlord tenants law and it'll be right in this room and it will be at 10 o'clock I believe I don't know if Melissa's here or not but anyway it begins at 10 o'clock where we'll be talking about renters rights tenants rights and landlord tenant law hope to see you all there thank you so thank you we actually have two more agenda items however seeing that the time is late I think instead of having a presentation on it I'm going to do two things one is um there's still time to enter the door prize for the $25 city market gift certificate feel feel free to come up and put your name in and instead of um presenting on the ballot items does anybody have any questions for the city counselors or the mayor on either ballot item number four five which is the personal business income tax or ballot item number six which is the and there's a door prize don't leave the what oh the um the the paper the plastic the the the lowering plastic so does anybody have any questions oh we have one question from dig yeah I was just curious to know just even briefly to hear from the mayor and and some of the elected reps on just briefly what their positions would be on those two ballot items and maybe some of the pros and cons really quick I'll just answer the personal business the business personal property is an antiquated form of taxation that only applies to burlington businesses none of the businesses none of the communities around us um tax businesses in this way and it really discourages investment in equipment based businesses so if you have um you know machinery that is um creates decent level wage jobs you're actually penalized so it's a I think an important modernization to our tax system that other communities have implemented and we're a little behind on that one and then the other one is an advisory question on the plastics issue and someone told me recently it was actually a young person very young person told me did you know there's going to be more pieces of plastic in the ocean than fish by 2030 so that's the type of thing that we're trying to get at we're not sure exactly how we will implement this but the idea is to deal with single use plastics perhaps I mean obviously a ban on single use plastics is is one approach and that is on the table basically agree with brian on those both of those me too the the only thing I would add to what brian said is um I think important to understand the the proposal for the the business personal property tax which actually a terrible name because it sounds like it's about personal property and it is about equipment for commercial businesses um it does generate a significant amount of revenue right now over a million dollars a year um this phase out uh the way it's proposed um is been set up in such a way that that will have almost no impact on existing property taxes or minimal impact on existing property taxes payers because it is phased out of an eight-year period and most of the phase out happens at the end when the city is going to get an infusion of new revenues from the expiration of the waterfront tiff district so I think this is getting rid as brian says of an antiquated tax in a way that is as painless as possible thank you and congratulations everybody's still here you made it to the end we're now going to do our door prize drawing can we get a volunteer to come pick the door prize okay i'm going to do it is trav fryer still here thank you folks for coming to the npa tonight we'll see you next month