 in the morning and let us know where you're watching us from. We definitely be glad to sample and hear your feedback. We've posted our photo of the day, Father Socials on X, including Facebook and Insta as well. And the rest, at our threads, in TikTok too, at 42 for 4 Channel on the hashtag Go In The Morning. Personally, you can engage with me and let me know personally the way you're watching us from at the brand circle 101, right? This is the last conversation of the day. The interview we're just about to have right now. We've been joined live by a powerful gentleman. Here is Innocent Matara. He's a digital TV content producer and now turned an entrepreneur. And they're going to delve into stories online, entrepreneurship. Literally also how to generate income and the transition of somebody who's worked in the media space and transition to become an entrepreneur. It's really an interesting journey. Definitely, you'd love to hear this story about this young man. Karibu Sanavisa, Innocent, how are you? Thank you. Thank you for having me. All right, Karibu Sanavisa, let's get to know you a little bit. You've worked in media. I don't know if your passion is still in media, but you will tell us. You've worked in the media before and then transition to become an entrepreneur and literally you're a master on that world of entrepreneurship and literally businesses and whatnot. So maybe just basically if you can take us through your journey and how you started up to here you are on TV. So my name is Innocent Matara, as you mentioned. I'm a digital stroke TV content producer with almost a decade experience working for different media industries. So I started as a production assistant when I started in 2014, grew up to a producer, a TV director, then a TV host. Then as time went by during COVID, I realized that there was a gap. There was a gap to be filled and this was digital content creation or online marketing. So after COVID, I was fortunate enough to get training of digital content creation from the voice of America. Then after that, I decided why not pursue this online now business as a whole. So that is with this experience I had previously of content creation. It was a bit easier for me to now try the new field of online marketing because I was also managing social media pages for the broadcast that I used to work with. That's an incredible transition because I can only imagine somebody who was on TV like me right now and I love radio and then you finally like morph into a world that people can't hear you and can't see you. Has it altered any of your maybe part of your life where people maybe used to see you and hear you on TV and now they no longer hear you anymore? And also are you loving the part where you're not being seen or heard? Because for me, I love attention. I love being on radio, I love being on TV, I love being loud, I love creating conversation and you can see sometimes like you literally just flow with it because it's your thing. Now I can only imagine if I stop please, I just don't know where I'll be. I can't fathom that. So how has it been for you? Okay, honestly at first it was depressing. I was like, what will people say? And also the relatives around me and the friends were asking me, how are you gonna survive not working on TV? But it was something that I said why not try it out because I had the experience to do it. The only difference is now coming out from a corporate industry to the Jewa Kali industry. It's a bit two different worlds. Exactly. So I'm mishosting, yes, but this is something that I decided to build. So I decided to build a company and a company when you build it now you have to give it your all. So I decided to go for the office furniture sales because now I realize now working from the corporate industry it was easy for me now to also sell to other offices in the corporate. Because of the networks you established for the media industry as well? Yes, yes. And your company is called Furniture or Funcha Guru? It's called Furniture Guru. So it's a... Furniture in Swahili, yeah. In Swahili, yes. Okay. So Guru, Guru is a, I have a story of the name. I met Narendra Guru, the owner of Mahesh Amabati. Right there. During COVID I was producing a property show. And after the interview we had like a five minute talk with him and we asked him what can one do to reach the top. And the guy just gave us a simple answer. He told us do what you love and love what you do. Yes. So when creating the name of the company I realized why not also add the Guru in it so that every time I feel like I'm slipping back, I think of the words that the guy told me. And he just said simple thing, do what you love and love what you do. Yeah, and it inspired that whole journey. Yes. With a wider perspective and the self-belief that yes, even though I'm starting from scratch but I'm gonna make it, which is an incredible thing by the way. Yeah. And then it has just popped up in my mind. Is it that sure that they say there's always something for everyone? Is it where you met him? No, no, no. It's a... By Nancy? It's a different one from NTV. All right, I get you, I get you. And what I'm learning also from what you've explained is that sometimes when you're in this space it's really unpredictable what could happen in the next minute. So having a backup plan is just, it's a saving risk to be honest. And like what you said, you are in the space and then you transition to a business. It really just shows the diversification of your skills and the readiness to just adapt to changes. And I believe it's a thing especially in this generation. For example, now with Genesis, I remember our intro with my co-host Steph, we talked about Genesis being extremely tired of anything serious, especially work. So maybe if you can talk about just adapting to change, especially when you're used to one thing and how our situation has forced you to transition and literally you have to go head zone. So it's always a difficult decision to make when you're transitioning or trying out something new. And all you can, all I can advise someone is you really have to try it numerous times for you to get a satisfactory answer for yourself. For example, on the online sales, when starting up, if you have less followers and you sponsor your page, the visibility is not as high as someone who's got a higher number of followers. So what happens is you really have to just persist, like if it's content creation, you really have to put content on a daily until they are visible. So for example, on the online sale, you will sponsor a post, you will pay Meta. You pay Meta and they link you up to customers. So what happens is when you do a post on Facebook and Instagram and you pay Meta, they'll put your post to someone who's searching an item that is closer to the keywords. The keywords, yes. So you keep on popping up and doing a recommendation, right? Yeah, but to be honest, sometimes you can talk to 10 people before you make a sale. So if you lose up in between, you'll get that you're not getting the answer that you wanted because some will just come and tell you, hi, can I get more information about the product? Tell them the price, the sizes, in case of that furniture. They tell you, I will come back. Some come, some don't. So come, I'll go buy a major, I want to sell it to you. I'll sell it to you, I'll sell it to you. But in real sense, some come back and they give you good deals. So it's a matter of you pushing every day and what happens on social media, even if you're creating a personal page for yourself, a personal brand, you really have to keep people updated on new stuff that you're doing. So the more you do it, the more people see your resilience and they support you. And the consistency, because I think a lot of people think content creation is about, hey, welcome to my YouTube channel and today I have JZNB on the personal content creation. Literally it's you selling a product that's literally feeling a need, right? Right, like feeling a niche because you're appealing to specific audiences. And now that you've brought up stories about content creation, maybe, what are some of the tactics so far, and also the strategy, because I believe without strategy, even in, I'm very active on my Instagram, but if you just check my posting pattern, you realize I go from photo to video, photo to video, like I know that, that's my posting pattern. And a lot of people do not have maybe that schedule of posting. Maybe you're posting on Monday and then next time you'll post in 2025. But for the algorithm to even recognize you for you to gain followers, like I did on Mines, you must be consistent with a real photo. Hashtag, yes. And that's why you know somebody hard to say, oh, you have a hashtag like, yeah, it's part of the algorithm. Yes, yes. And maybe you can talk about that as well. So first of all, maybe just to go back, when you're creating content, you really have to find that niche. Maybe if it's cooking, you really have to do a A-B test when starting up to create content. So for example, if you're creating, you want to create content and you are having mixed reactions, all like an advisor want to do is why not put something like a motor show and a cooking show or a relationship show. So with those three thematic content, you will, with your key performance indicators, you'll know which one is working for you. And for example, if it's YouTube or Instagram, Instagram, it will be the number of likes that the content gets. If it's YouTube, the number of views that gets. So for example, if I'm doing two different types of content and one is getting 1,000 views per day and the other one is getting 250, I will assume that the 1,000 one is speaking and this is what the target audience, maybe you are dealing with, is interested with. And these other ones, they are not really interested with. So once you've gotten the content that you want to do the niche now, then it's a matter of doing it on a daily because you have to tell your viewers that on every Tuesday, I will be putting content. Instead of now putting on Monday, then coming putting again on Sunday. Then if you look at from the studies that have taken place from the professionals that have advised us, they have advised that when you put content in the morning, assuming people are going to work, they are on traffic, so they are on their phones. So people will be scrolling through their phones. Then during lunch hours, between 12 and 2, people are now going for lunch, then they'll be using their phones. Then during the evening, when they are going back home. That's traffic as well, that's the evening drive. So they'll be using their phones. So within, if you do those three posts a day, during those times, the probability of them getting seen is higher. And the impact will be really high, it's exceptional. Yes, then on the hashtag for you now to get search engine optimization activated, you really have to use all the social media platforms, be it X, be it TikTok, be it Threads, LinkedIn, and Facebook. So for Facebook, I usually like to use Facebook, even though it's not a Gen Z thing, but if you look at the subscription number of Facebook within Kenya, as per this year, it's 8.5 million users on Facebook. For Instagram, it's around four. Yeah, for Twitter, it's a fast, it's a fast paced network, I can say that. So if you don't put more posts within a day, the post that you did will be now overtaken by events. So if you want your selling, you're selling to people within Machinani, or your target audience is within Machinani, Facebook is the ideal channel to use. If your products or your target audience are those, take survey guys, I'll propose that you use X, because X is that one second, there's something happening, so you really have to update that. It's like more of a conversational space and people are reacting and there's no filter. Yes. And I love that Elon Musk came to like, literally has a randomized data, anybody can post and say whatever they wanna say. Yes, yes. Hey man, that's an incredible thing. Yeah, it's a good thing. So even if you look at, for example, Elon Musk, I'd say he's a genius, because the guy knew that Tesla needed a marketing base, so he had to risk it. I remember when he was doing some interview, people were asking him, will you manage to buy X? And he told them, yeah, I will. And so purposely Elon Musk bought X to market Tesla and X rockets. And the X space, yeah. Yes, yes. So for Instagram, I'll say it's about lifestyle, more about lifestyle. So if you're doing content about lifestyle, it's the place to be within. Right. Yes, yes. Right, I like Elon Musk, I don't know if you noticed, it looks a little bit ugly, but I think it's the future, but I'm really scared. If those are some of the cars you're going to have, try and check out, yeah, yeah. But it's Elon Musk. Yeah. Most known is Tesla. Yes, yes. Yeah, who? Interesting that you've mentioned that. Now, maybe in terms now for your business personally, let's get into it. Maybe how do you strategize it to a point you're able to fish and harvest customers, especially now that you mentioned your most active platform is Facebook, which I feel like you've said, it actually has the largest number of canyons on it as well, but you said Gen Z's, even part of the Linus, they don't prefer it. They feel like it's an old school. But it was like one of the first social apps anyways, before WhatsApp, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so maybe what are some of the skills that you've managed to use to harvest and harvest customers, say, you're going to buy, and maybe it's going to happen, let's go and see what will happen. Have you had successful stories as well? Yeah, I've had successful stories. So when you're really selling online, what you really have to consider is like the quality of the images you're putting for people out there. So for me, I usually am really interested in having nice pictures of the product before and after. So I sometimes like to show the before and after. For example, if I'm doing a reception counter for a client, I'll do the before, when we are making it within the workshop, and then after, we've delivered it, how it looks and feels within the office space. So this one gives someone the believability of that thing and just give them the old picture of how this thing will be there. Then two, it's about keywords, using the right keywords. For example, if I'm selling office furniture within Nairobi, so if I'm doing my titles, they will be office furniture with, are you looking for office furniture within Nairobi? So anyone who's searching for office furniture on Nairobi, my ad might pop up. Then the hashtag that you said, it's a very crucial thing that you can forget sometimes. Do you have your hashtag or your business and yours personally? Yes, so I have a hashtag for Nichaguru, and now hashtag InnocentMaterra for mine. That's for your personal then? Yes, yes. You know, people don't take it serious because they think maybe to it's an ego thing, really no, it's serious for even the keywords and searching somebody Googles your name. If they search for InnocentMaterra, like you said, or Uncle Sanko, my radio thing, definitely just get back to my Instagram, is up. So it's a professional thing to have a hashtag, right? Yes, yes. And it helps to drive customers to your page. Yes. All right. So for example, I was going through one of the platforms, Kenya Power for social media page on X, and I realized these people have 1.65 million posts. Who? Many have been posting posts, yes, yes. So if you look at those numbers of the posts, if you're competing against them, it's really tricky. Exactly. And each post has an hashtag to add that to. To the product, how much regarding the post? The post. Who? So it's a consistent thing. So apart from good, nice pictures, you really have to post on a daily or some hourly. Yes. Yes. Depending, like a media house, definitely how to have. I think maybe some of the apps and you come on Twitter deck and create a Facebook as well. Yes. I know you've interacted with them. Yes. You can be able to schedule a Tweety under 7 p.m., beginning under 1 p.m., beginning in the cashier. Yes. Which it's a good thing. Have you done that? Do you schedule posts? I don't schedule posts because I, at least now I have all the time to now manage the page. Yeah. For scheduling, this is an advice to those who are, if you're busy, let's say you are having another hassle. And you want also to grow your page. So that is when it's recommended for you to schedule in the morning, then they just pop up within the pages. But now for product marketing, it's really tricky because you don't know what is selling on that particular day. So for example, during January's schools are our biggest customers, clients rather. Because now they want the lockers and staff and also offices. So during December, you get that, families are our biggest clients as well because during that time, people want to buy some good furniture as a present whether they are partners, parents, brothers and sisters. So you really have to change that every minute. So scheduling on during, if you're doing product marketing, scheduling is not advisable according to me because you really have to be in tabs with what is happening. And just engage, actually organic engagement. Yes. So for example, even if you do an ad, you really have to go to the meta-ad management system and look at this ad if it's making sense because there are ads that one click or one message, it will cost you like 500 shillings. Yes. And that's maybe for like an hour, depending on the range of audience you want to reach. Yes, yes. Then there's one that will cost you like 30 shillings. So you really have to go analyze that and see which ad is working, which one is not. Then you ask me if I would have done different to make the products now sell. So once a client engages me, I go a step ahead and make a call to them. If you make a call to someone, and it's easier for you now to know if this is a serious buyer or they just wanted to know the information. So it saves you time. And also on the other side, now you get to know the client, what they really need from you. Right, and that's how you like mainly hack it and get maybe to meet the client if it's a serious one because online, there's a time we go on an X discussion and somebody said, I don't know if you are AI talking or you're a real person, so I live this conversation here. I was like, wow, the future of this online space is really shocking, which is really an interesting thing. Now I think also placement for online products is really an interesting part, placement and pricing as well. So now for your business, for your nature of your business, how do you make the graphics of let's say your items online attractive because the first thing when you are looking for something that you want, you'll go for the most colorful, bold, it has some of the latest features. Even for a photo for somebody you're looking at a celebrity, most of their pages are super attractive. So you literally click on the first photo and you're clicking on the next. Now, soon I had you realize you're at the bottom of their page, right? So how do you make now for a business extremely striking so that if just somebody is scanning through, is coming through socials, they get to click on it, it's up and maybe they can hack that self. One, when doing a business now, you have to really choose a logo that you want to work with. So with the furniture guru, I decided now to use green, red and black, more of the Kenyan flag. If you look at the posters now with the combination of green, red and black, it gives me now the advantage of now interchanging the posters. So today my headline can be, the furniture guru can be in black, tomorrow it can be in green, the other day can be in red. So also alternating the prizes and also the information there. Then you really have to keep your page clean. Clean is, you don't have any client complaining on your page. Right. Because- Or even relevant posts. Yeah, irrelevant posts. You have to be keen because like this morning, I got, I think, a scammer on who wanted to, is telling me that I've been flagged for violating a copyright picture. Is that Instagram or Facebook communicating to you or this person, this sort of person? Yeah, it's a person, but the information is almost the same way that Facebook brings it. On matter. On matter, yeah. So what happens on that, you really have to go on the profile and look at that person, then you just report and block that person. I have a friend of mine who lost a page. He had like 3000 followers. Then he got that text with a link. So when you click that link, I think now you give them the rights now to control your page. Right, it's like hacking. It's like you've already signed into it and exchanged your private information, logging details. Yes, yes. And I love the fact that I think most in the IT and tech conversations you've hosted IT experts and tech experts have talked about stories about white hacking, black hacking. So I perfectly understand when you say you clicked on a link and you are logged out of your account and what's happening behind the scenes. Literally. And I think it's a good thing as well in terms of people that have a huge presence online, especially when it comes to business. I recently saw an update, I think in Agita, he is to allow my high-sell. Does this page have my demo? Yes. I saw it and I really felt about for them. Somebody hacked their page. I don't know if they got it back, but definitely they can get it back. Now you're also prone to such. Yes, sir. Especially if your business is on a aspect. Yes. And it's really giving. Yeah. You literally don't know who's your enemy now that it's an online space. Yeah. Like somebody said, I don't know if you're AI or you're a human being. You just don't know who's against you. So how do you, have you also showed that yourself or protected yourself from such emerging issues for your business? Okay, so the biggest, I can say disadvantage in this business is when you sponsored a post, you don't know who's the person looking at it. You might be a scammer, hacker, or a real client. Right. So for example, we've encountered several times the story of someone, they pretend to be a client, but they are scammers. So someone comes on your page, they DM you and they tell you, hi, can I get this product at what cost? You say the price. So I had an incident where this person told me, I want you to deliver something to Parklands, an executive director's chair, and don't even tie it up. Just bring it within a veneer coquabox so that I can put it on my boot and take it home. So I was like, OK. Have they made a deposit for it at first? No. Mostly people don't make a deposit because now for the online business, all of us are alike. Yeah, because we are at risk. Also, the trust graphic is just like zero. Let me just try, let me believe it can work. So we use riders within Nairobi for delivery. So the procedure is once I get an order, I'll give the rider the number and the product, then the location, we usually ask the clients to send the pin. So once we get the location, the rider takes the product to that specific location. On arrival, what the rider will say is now you have to pay first. After paying, that is when we release the goods. So actually on that Parklands incident, the guy manufactured a fake EMPESA message. He sent the rider, he forwarded the message to the rider. So when the rider called me, I asked, do I have money? I was like, let me check, let me check. So I checked my EMPESA and I was like, no, it's not a bad thing. So the guy was tricky because he was saying, what you have to watch here is not good. Or he was not at the delivery station. Or he was just with them but trying to plot. Yes, yes. So with that confirmation from the riders we've worked with, that is the only at least solid, I can say solid safety that we've managed to put so far. If it's outside Nairobi, we ask clients to now pay for transport as a commitment fee. And the amount of delivery fee that they're paying, they're not paying to furniture guru, they're paying to the respective courier that they've chosen to take the product to them. So if it's Mombasa, we use the Mombasa applying vehicles, if it's Kisumo, if it's Central. So we have an agreement with the courier services that once my good is on transit with you guys, on arrival, I have the, it's only me who have the authority to release the goods. So the goods are released after now, the client has paid and I have called the office to confirm that yes, payment has checked in. So that is at least the solid safety that we put. So sometimes we also have people who sell online and they are not genuine people. So there's an issue of trust between the clients and us. So to mitigate that, you have to go an extra mile at least now giving out your goods and putting up the safety measures so that it reaches there, the client confirms, then pays. Right. And it will prevent you from getting involved in such issues. I saw, I think she's called Susan Grace, she's also a journalist. She had posted a video about some of these online shops where somebody is posting a very enticing product, you want it and maybe it's not even in Kenya yet. Instead of saying the price, the number, they're like DM for prices, literally why? Why should I DM you for prices? You're posting at this item, you're selling it. Eka price, Eka number, Eka email. So that if I want it, I'll directly phone you up and we negotiate the price if maybe you're not able to get to the cost price of it. And you hack it. So it's really all DM for prices. I think one question to clients is do due diligence when purchasing online, it's a tricky business. So you have to do due diligence because for example, if you get like iPhone X, iPhone X cannot be sold between 20,000 and less. Oh, actually 100,000 and less. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. iPhone 20,000. Maybe you're in a bad situation. So you know what I mean. And drunk, add that on top. Bad situation and drunk. So you know what I'm saying, make iPhone X and get it in bow. Then a client goes, hey, can I get this? They're told to deposit. So you put your money there and it's lost. So doing due diligence, if for example you're buying or you want to purchase office furniture or any other furniture type for home, just you can have three pages that you can view. The prices are normally almost the same. Because there are specific things that we sell even with my competitors. And you cannot quote higher than the standard price. For example, if it's a desk, a desk will go between 5,000 and 6,000. Right. You can't get it less than that. You can't get it less than that. When if it's secondhand and overly used? Unless it's now secondhand. So if you get something like that and someone is selling, they've indicated brand new and they're selling to five. And you've seen an imported chair, they're secretarial. It's questionable. You really have to think, when the deal is too good, you think, yeah. Questionable. Right. So I think Instagram has an icon where you're able to shop. I think it's called InstaShop. Yes. Have you personally made use of that as well? So for that to happen, they require you to have a new website. Yeah. Yeah, so currently I'm working on my website. You're working on it. Yeah, so that I link it up. So the good thing about Instagram also, even if it's not the Instagram shop, you can link it up with Facebook. Yeah. So when you post on Facebook or on Instagram, they can cross post within each other. Yeah, because now they're from the same company. Right. Yeah. Right, maybe now we can delve deeper into it and talk about clientele, your clients. How's your relationship with them, your customer care relationship as well. And I don't know if you're solely running the business as you individually, you are with a group of people, maybe if you have, how many are they in total and how are you coordinating. And also maybe what is the feedback? Because you know, business feedback and customer care relationship is only forever. They will never part ways till Kingdom come. Yes, yes. So maybe you can talk about that. Yeah, so it's tricky to run this business solo. So have a team also behind me. Some are the wholesalers, the suppliers. Some also have other workshops that we take products that we don't make. So our workshop is within Old Dunham Road. Right. And we have like six fundees that we work with. My partner is called Koech and Simon. So Koech does the, now customizing of the products and Simon deals with the imported goods. So you will get that some, there are some items that you need to get them from the wholesaler, the warehouse, the one who imports them. And because of, you have to get a relationship where you can take on credit, deliver, get paid, then pay them. So with that. And that means you've already established like a credit trust. Yes. Literally trust and now credit trust because you can't just give somebody credit. And I love the fact that I think now you've made me remember last week and maybe previously early in the beginning of the year I interviewed somebody here who said even for starting a business you don't, you literally don't need to borrow money because also when you go into the bank or the financial institution, you don't have a truck record for that will give you credit for you to earn that money. For example, you need 500K and you're just starting a business. You don't have history of a trucking record. So this means you started organic and now like you're saying you've already built a relationship with fiscal people. And they know you individually. Not like a bank though. Yeah. So building a credit trust for small entrepreneurs is really key to business because one, these people give you items on credit. They also share the prices variations over time. Then they tell you the new products in town. They even guide you for example on this online business when I was starting it. I was so scared of sending an item to Kisumu then getting paid later. Right. Those people, they guided me that this is the right courier to use. This is the procedure you have to print detailed notice and put them in payment on delivery and stuff. It's like easy coach, right? Yes. I think everybody in Nairobi at some point you have used easy coach to deliver a parcel. Get one and even deliver it because they are trusted and they have that credibility and safety as well because you can't be sending them enough from Kisumu to Nairobi in Africa or Napaatani, tuna fish. Yes, yes. Because they assure you of their courier services just like you are saying. Yes. Yes. So for the partners, I have those two. Then for the clients' feedback, I must say sometimes that we have not delivered to the standard that the clients want. But... Do they complain? Yes. Because I also believe there's those rowdy clients. Maybe somebody is just having a bad day and a bad day is relative. Depending on the client, they'll be like, hey, I'm going to buy it. If you sift closely and go into your real estate, what they are saying is really true. And like they say, the customer is always right, whether you're in a good or a bad mood anyways. Yeah. So what happens in a situation where we've not met the quality or the specific thing that they wanted us to, we really now try to ensure that we don't break this relationship. Even if it's redoing that thing, we now redo it with the client's guide. Because sometimes clients, they share a picture of something to be customized. Then you get that the picture was computer generated. Like AI generated. AI literally. Yes. Now you're doing it with now the local machines and our just our... You can't get your hands on it, but the networking apps come out. Canva. Canva is good. Can you use that a lot? Yes, I use Canva a lot. And Photoshop a lot. Yes. Yes, yes. So once you get a picture and the client is not impressed, we ask them to come now to the workshop for us to redo this item. The guide for that. Yeah. There are also items that we've delivered and on arrival they are broken. You get the fault is not ours per se because when we did, we took them to the courier company. Yes. They were in good shape. So how do you cater for such? So for such, we try liars with the client and ask them. For example, I'm a glass in my break. I'm a glass in my break. Can you find a phone within your location? Yeah. Yeah, that's a good business. Because very few people will tell you, hey, I'm on TV, I'm on my way. Can you find somebody who can replace it and then tell us how much? Yeah. I have to buy from such a shop. Yeah, because what happens is, you know, these customers are returning customers. Yeah, by the way. Yeah. So if you mess them on the first day, you don't know what to do. You mess even the next client. Yeah. Because they already have a history with you. Yes. And somebody also interviewed who said what you said. You deliver one, they tell another one. Yes. And one finally goes viral. And it becomes a return customer community. Yeah. I'm a return client community. Yeah, I have one customer. I have one client from Kiambo. Right. So he bought a boardroom I think in November, December. Right. But so far he's given me referral to three of his friends. Wow. Even yesterday we delivered one. And what he always tells me is, you just make sure you deliver the right quality. For me, I will always give you referrals. So supposing like that person, on the first day we messed up. Yeah. On the first day, we messed up. That's what happened. That's what happened. Yeah. But there are also those clients that you feel like they want to buy something. So what happens is, it's always good to choose clients. Right. Because for me, I wanted to work with office clients. Right. So I wonder what you feel like whenever we deliver to an office. I'm always saying that transforming one office at a time. So at Vanitya Guru, our passion is transforming every one office at a time. Right. So you get that and you see the prize at a bargain. Yes. So you try your best to at least accommodate them. But where it's not possible, you just tell them the truth that you obey Aitawaza. Yes. Yes. Yes. Like Aitawaza, I hope maybe you go, regather yourself then, come back when you're ready. Right. And is it possible maybe for a client to negotiate? There's this business where, you know, when I come here, I can deposit. But then for me, my fear is, yes, I can deposit and then it come two months later. That item is gone and I can never get exactly like that. Thank you. I'm misogyny as I find out. Because literally that's a disappointment. Maybe that is the only issue you wanted and there's no any other design coming here. And that is like your best one. So maybe 3000, maybe the price is 6K. And then we're ready after a month or so. So how do you deal with that, especially now for this furniture business? I don't know if it's possible for that to happen. It's possible, right? It is possible. What happens is we have this grace period that we give out. Oh, it's a grace period. Yeah. So if you put your deposit and we agree that you're supposed to come pick it within a week, we give you 21 days grace period to pick it within that time limit. Because for furniture, for example, if it's the sofa, you know, it will now take some space. Yeah, it's consuming space, actually. So the more it stays there, it means that I cannot store. You're running out of space for even your other new stock. New stock, exactly. Yes, so that is why we give that grace period to come collect it within that day. And if the client is unable to, what do you do? Do you do dumping? No, we don't. What we do is now we have an agreement where we can reimburse the deposit, then sell the item. Yeah, because at least... I feel like that's a loss anyway. Yeah, it is because now for the storage fee and the time, and then maybe it's a customized item where it's a specific client who was interested in that thing, it's tricky. But now for business, Literally, you're burning money or spending money to make money. Yeah. Maybe what are some of your trying times? Because each and every business has its own trying time. And maybe if I go to ask you, for how long have you been in operation since you were opened? We are one and a half years old now. Right. Because here in business, at least you give it six months. So if you end up post six, then it means you can survive and weather the storm market. So if you weather the six months the remaining six and then now, you said a year and a half now. Yes, yes. It definitely means you're on the road to goodness. So still on that, maybe what are some of your trying times? Like I said, in every business, there's always the highest and the lowest tides. So maybe for you, what are some of your highest and the lowest and maybe did you learn from it were they hurtful? So I'll start with the lowest times. It's almost like a daily occurrence where you really don't know what tomorrow brings. But there are situations where now you've, there's a business I did, a project I did. Then I was told that to use my capital, then the money was supposed to come in within two weeks. The money came after two months. So at that particular point is where the client has assured you that within two weeks, you will get your money. So this is where the situation where you even use your private equity to fund the business. Like you're getting deeper into your pocket. Yes. It's your own personal funds. Yes. Not assigned for the business. Then after you've done that, you know, but that's a, at a, at a, at a corner of the house, so we're getting any tricky. Oh my goodness. You're looking at the days, days and you're like a rent equal as in my, you come up. So this was last, last year December. Right. So January was a bit tricky for me because if it's not the, now the credibility and the honesty that at least I've, I've always displayed with either my landlord and my suppliers. Sometimes I'm not. You don't have to run out of business. Yeah, because at that particular time I was looking for someone else. My, my sister was joining from one and I wanted to cheap in. Right. And you're looking at your areas in Unafa Kulipo and you don't have anything. Yes. Then you're trying to explain to people like Niaze. And they're not understanding. Because December, Umeku ki pigashubili. Right. So Unafa Kuku wana do. So telling them that I wana do it. You don't have it right now. Yeah, it's, it's a bit tricky. Yes. Then my highest moment I would say I I've, I've, I've supplied to people I never thought I would. Um, I supplied the furniture to one ICJ International Crime Justice lawyer I think. Um, and for, for the online it's, it's, it's brought me some customers that I wouldn't think I would have met them if it wasn't for online. Right. For example, this, this particular time I, I, I sold a wardrobe tour Chinese lady in along, along Gongrod. Right. And the conversation was purely texting on WhatsApp. So I was like, ah, I'm on this come. Right. Like you couldn't even believe it. I'm, I'm trying to call. They are not picking. Right. And she. But on message they're talking good. Yeah, she was a lady. She's telling me. Right. She's talking good. Yeah, I, I, I can't, I can't, I don't understand English. And I'm like. Wow. Is there. How do you get an interpretation? No, no, no. So the only thing was, I think now there was a person they were, they were staying with. So it was easy at least for, for us to communicate. But 75% of the conversation was on message. Then the good was. You tried to make a phone call. Never picked. Never picked because now there will be language barrier. Yeah. So she's texting. I knew that. Yeah. Jen, Jen. Yes. So until we delivered, that is when I confirmed that way. This only thing can, can really work. Work. What was the item you delivered? A wardrope. A wardrope. A wardrope. Yeah, so it would, I even questioned the rider before taking that one. Make sure. He's going to have to wash it. Yeah. Yes, yes. Because even me, too, I would be like a Chinese. Well, what do you want from me? It's us who want something from you. Not you Chinese wanting something from me. Yeah. So considering all, I think that was the highest level of, because selling to a Chinese nationality when we know that we import from them, it was really satisfactory to my brand that at least. It just affirmed the mark that online thing, the online business really works. Yes, yes. And now that you brought it up, the Chinese part. So how are we, do we import a lot of furniture? Because I remember at some point the president was, I think in his speech, it could have been last year, he said we are going to stop importing furniture because I wonder, we have our trees in here. In fact, we have the best trees. I don't know, come on, you Mugumo tree. Yeah. I don't want to mess it up. I don't know which are some of the best trees so far, but maybe you can, since you work in that space, you can maybe try to explain to us maybe, is it because we are importing that the market here is shallow? Or maybe because maybe also the middlemen and the people who are into the intermediaries as well and how they are coordinating that business, especially in that curve of imports and export. Is it because of us here, Amar, what is happening? So I can say for office furniture, almost 70% is imported. Why is it so, by the way? If you look at the nature of the products, they are made using machines. And according to now, our level, there are some things that we cannot make, like for example, a mesh chair, a headrest chair, orthopedic chair. Right. What we can make is the desk, but according to client preference, people still prefer imports more than locally made. So this is what we are trying to change, where we are trying to tell them that locally, the quality is good, the comfort is same as the imported, and the price is very low compared to the imports. But, and again, what I can say is, we cannot run away from importing things because according to the finish, the finish of the product from the imports, it's very good, and that is what we are still lagging behind as the Kenyan economy. For example, if you look at the government offices, all their products are imported as much as the president is saying otherwise. It's by Kenya, by East Kenya. Yeah. There's no way that you'll find the tenders given to the local people. So most of the things are imported, but what I want to urge clients is to know that locally goods are the same as imported goods with the advanced technology that we have here. We have it here. And... So do you want me to say another one? Hopefully they are manufacturing sim. So do you want to say another one? I think I'll announce you on our ICT CS studies. Yes. Do you want to say another one? We're going to have our own made cell phones right here, but I really doubt because the parts, plasmas are co-imported, you know? Yes. Because I just keep Kenya on a manufacture cell phone parts. So basically they're imported and then locally assembled, right? Just like cars. Just like cars, everything is imported and assembled. So for example, if we are to talk about locally manufactured phones, we have to ask about co-bolts that makes the touch screen now work. Yeah. Co-bolts is from Congo, as the previous guest was saying. Yeah. And now, do we have the factories to do so? Yeah. Yeah. So if we had the factories to do so, it would have helped us. Yeah, store is a carbon emission piece that could jump over. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Facilities right here in Kenya. Yeah. Yeah. So really that has denied us the joy of manufacturing for some of these things. Yeah. Then my plea would be like to the trade seers to... Right. To build at least to support the people within. Yeah. For example, if we're talking about now, like we were saying, to do locally made clothes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we really have to know, like if we're supporting these people, it's equal to nearly story. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then all of a sudden, everybody returns to their vessel. Yeah. Yeah. For locally manufactured items to prosper, we really need to get lower taxes to come a lower taxes. Yeah. Or just incentives. Or rather like even duty free, tax free. Yeah. Literally such. Yeah. To promote locally manufactured items and the industries. Yeah. So without those, but we have some years to come and don't have to take away your place. Right. But with all honesty, I'm angry at the imported stuff. Yeah. And I compare the local made stuff. They're better. Apart from just the finish. The finishing part. The local, locally made products is durable and better. Yeah. Let me give you an awkward one. It's really a sad one. So there's a time my dad had passed on. And this is a real experience. So we were at Leifendlow home and to the end of place here could have to casket coffins. And the lady who was taking us at Leifendlow home was saying, this one is an imported one. Like half of those caskets at Leifendlow home, literally I was there because I'm speaking from experience. Most of them that imported are from Italy, one from South Africa. And mostly what we wanted to make is and mostly what we want to make because they have the money. There's one that was costing 1.5 million. This is a casket coffin. Now I'm not going to explain any detail. This one is made of gold. This one has details of silver. This one, the holding part. And that was the time I was like, well, this is life-living. So that's when I also learned that the casket business is a big business because of the word, the timber that goes into it. And some people do not know about this, by the way. It's a big business. It's a big business. And the only thing maybe I can ask you, how do you think those people pray to God to expand their business? Yeah. That was a good one. I saw last week, I saw a meme. A doctor is always praying for you to get sick. A positive walks at the mug wants you to die in a road accident. Like it's a month, it's month, but like it's nature, it's happening and there's nothing you can literally do about it. So the positive walks at the mug prays you die, get hit by a car or something so that he sells his caskets and coffins. And it's crazy, but it's life, literally. It's life. It's life, yeah. So people rather, and I think also now that we mentioned caskets, I think there's few, and maybe the cheapest, the ones that are locally manufactured. But also when you look at the stories of people that are selling caskets or coffins, when you don't make a deal, you say, well, this is a business, we're not going to take out our coffins. So they got kicked out. But this person is genuinely doing business because people will die. They will die. And they have to put now food to the table and they don't want to steal. So they have to do something. Right, as we said, Brian, maybe what are some of the lessons you've learned in your business and then maybe you can tell us your final word if people want to buy and access your items where can they get it. So number one, the lesson you've learned in business since your transition from journalist to entrepreneur, the graph in between. One of the biggest lessons I've learned is honesty. Right. Honesty, it has to say yes or no. Because the moment you're dealing with suppliers, you're dealing with, you have delivery guys, you're dealing with clients in between there, you really have to be honest. Honest to their self, honest to their products, honest to your clients, honest to their suppliers. For example, if you request a 1.2 meters desk, I can't bring a 1.1 meters desk because there's 10 centimeter there, that difference. Right. So with that honesty, for example, these are a lady who paid me and I asked her, she had paid the excess of 1,300 book and I had not seen the figure. So I called auntie, hey, Ujali Patransport. And she said, how much was it? So I said the correct figure and looking, she told me, ah, I turn me to my excess. Right. And because the goods have been already delivered and they don't know us, we can't go away with that. So you are an upper hand to Avergers. Yes. Enjoy the next recognition. So honestly, you sent it back. I sent it back. So what I did is I sent it back and with that, she gave me another order. All right. Yeah. But that good relationship with her. Yes. So we, you being honest with the carer. Ah, who are honest with the carer, the carer gets in the game. Yeah. Because they are always deduct anyways. Yes. Because that story is the licensing. So even registration of businesses as well. Yes. Yeah. Sometimes when I say I took the area to school, I talk, but it's a must. It's part, in fact, it's part of the constitution. Yes. Yeah. So being honest is with the fundees. Yeah. I'll say just be, being honest has taught me so much. Right. And the scenarios that are played within the business, at least that honesty has taken me ahead instead of dragging me back. I also hate it. Sorry, they say hate is a strong word. But yeah, I do hate it when, for example, somebody's selling the shirt at 1,000. But if you couple, they're selling it to you at 2,000. And I'm like, I said, have you just sold it to this person? We want to protect at 1,000. And me, you're not even paid at 2,000. I think so. Integrity and honesty, Apple, is really. And then another person on a Muzi of 500, too. Yeah. We were like, what's going on? Literally honesty. Yes, yes. Right. So that is the biggest thing for a business to thrive. And maybe prayers, definitely. You really have to pray for your business and the people surrounding you because you can't really do it alone. It requires a team to prosper. Even if you're the one with the sole idea. Right. You really need to have that back up just to shield you in case of any emergencies. Right. So if people want to purchase your products, where can they access you very fast as we go? On Instagram, Fani Chaguru. Facebook, Fani Chaguru. Threads at Fani Chaguru. So Fani Chaguru is F-A-N-I-C-H-A guru. So when you go to our pages, you can look at the products. You select, then we offer payment on delivery countrywide. We try and reach every corner. So our main aim is connecting the products with clients, making them connect together however far they may be and giving them now quality, comfortable and durable products. Yeah, do you feel like you'll make a media comeback when you get a chance to? Now, oh yes. Yes. All right, so we leave it at here so that we don't get over running. So thank you so much, innocent, for sharing your insights. This has been a long but a riveting and informative conversation, by the way. Thank you for having me. And I wish you the very best of luck. We can't wait to see you at the top. Thank you. All right, and that's what we put up close to it. Thank you so much for interacting with us and hanging out with us from 7 a.m. to 10 a.m. My good name is Brian Sanko on behalf of Stephanie and everybody else behind the scenes who say thank you. Thank you so much for watching. And we'll definitely see you next time right here on Hashtag. Why in the morning? I'm Brian Sanko on one and I'm 22 for channel. Excuse me. Please follow us. We'll see you next time right here.