 Do you want to know why I've had a surprisingly relaxing day? Okay, it might not have been the question on all of your lips, but I'll tell you why anyway, which is that when I woke up this morning, I knew I was going to have to do a show on something I didn't know very much about, which was European football tournaments. Now, normally, when I wake up and the big story of the day is something that's not my area of expertise, I'm sort of thinking, who can I get on, who can furnish this show with the expertise that it needs so my audience can learn something. Then I realized it's Monday. The person I would most like to discuss the future of European football with was already booked to be on my show. It's Ash Sarkar, not only Navarra's Royal Correspondent, also now our football correspondent Ash. It's such a pleasure to be joined by you this evening. Well, I mean, good news. I finally have an excuse to talk about football, an awful lot in Tiskey Sour. Bad news, it's because corporate monied interests have conspired to kill the sports, which I love so much. Yeah, it's true. And before any of you think, I don't care about football, this isn't an important story. One, it's a really important story. And two, even if you don't know much about football, we're going to make it all very, very basic, which is probably where my ignorance is actually quite helpful on this particular theme. So do make sure you stay tuned. If you understand what's going on, we're going to give you the insight you need. If you don't, we're going to explain how it all works, what this route is about, and why it matters. And we also have a couple more stories for you this evening. One of them is the Welsh elections. And we'll be analyzing the various electoral contests, which are taking place on the 7th of May. Today, we're going for Wales. And we're going to finish the show with, was it awkward? Did he deal with it well? Anyway, it was an altercation between Keir Starmer and a pub landlord about lockdowns, fairly entertaining, I think. Before we get started, if you are new to this show, do hit the subscribe button. We go live every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday at 7pm. We put out videos every day. There's no reason not to. Straight to our first story. You can see the research I've done in my intro now. Everything I'm telling you tonight, I learned quite recently. The Champions League is currently the top competition in European football. I knew that, actually. Its viewing figures are enormous. It rakes in tons of money for the teams taking part, and it raises the stakes of domestic games as qualification for the competition relies on achieving certain spots in the national league. So in England's case, it's the top four in the Premier League that qualify. That makes the end of the season very exciting because you want to know who gets in the top four. However, we've learned today that billionaire owners of England's six richest teams no longer like the system. In particular, they don't like the element of jeopardy, which makes football so exciting. They don't like the fact that they're not guaranteed a spot in the Champions League every year because it means they won't necessarily be able to rake in that cash every year. They also want to control the revenue more than they currently do, and they want to waste less time. This is in their words, or at least their logic. They don't want to waste time playing fixtures against smaller clubs. They just want the big teams of Europe playing each other over and over again. This is, of course, the European Super League. It is made up of the big six, the so-called big six of English football, even though they're definitely not the top six in the Premier League, and six of their competitors on the Continent. In the middle of the night, last night, about midnight, always odd if you're launching what's supposed to be a big successful project to slip it out at that particular time. They have announced the launch of the European Super League. Let's go through the 12 clubs who have signed up to the project so far. From England, they are Manchester United, Tottenham, Arsenal, Chelsea, Manchester City and Liverpool. From Spain, it's Atletico Madrid, Real Madrid and Barcelona, and from Italy, Inter Milan, AC Milan and Juventus. Now, the clubs involved were also expecting three more people to join. There were supposed to be 15 founding members for the European Super League, but Bayern Munich, Borussia Dortmund and Paris Saint-Germain have all indicated they're opposed to the plans that they could change. It could be a case that they think this is where the wind is blowing and they have to join. We're yet to see. We understand that they've said there will be five extra spots in that Super League, which will be allocated based on how people perform in their domestic leagues. So there will be 15 permanent members of the Super League and then five, I suppose, guest members every year based on who's done well in the various leagues around Europe. That's the basics. Ash, these plans have football fans up in arms. It feels like we're close to a revolution in this country today. Tell me why. Okay. So the reason why people are so angry, there are long, medium and short-term reasons. One of the long-term reasons is because we have seen a shift in this country towards corporate interest controlling football clubs. So you had the Glazer takeover of Manchester United, which made a lot of people very unhappy. Same with the ownership of Stan Kronka of Arsenal. And you've also got this sense, particularly with Tottenham Hotspur, that the management by the Ennick Group, which is an English investment corporation, has not had the interest of the team at heart. So you have had the sense amongst the fans, pretty religious fans, people who aren't casual observers of the sport, that financial interests have taken the sport away from its roots. It's no longer about the fans. It's no longer about the community. It's about maximizing profit, even at the expense of building a good team which can win things and bring home the glory. So that's one of the long-term trends. One of the more medium-term trends is, of course, a sense that football has been trending in an unfair direction and that's been having an impact on the results. So it's not going to come as a surprise to anybody that what we've got in terms of the Premier League and then the Champions League isn't exactly a meritocracy. You don't tend to have big upsets in the Champions League anymore. Why? Because the clubs with the most money, many of whom are sort of fronts for petrodollar regimes, tend to do the best. It's because they've got better resources. It's because they can really build a team gear towards winning these competitions and also, depending on who you believe, they've been able to make use of the fact that financial fair play regulations aren't enforced as tightly as they ought to be and there are also other rumours of more underhand forms of corruption. UEFA, the European Football Association, has been mired in corruption scandals for very many years. There's a kind of medium-term trend of dissatisfaction and then in the short-term, particularly with this, you've got a sense of betrayal. You've got a sense of betrayal because football clubs, even the really big ones, have been following their staff. Some have been imposing redundancies. There was a story last year about Gunasaurus, the arsenal mascot being laid off and then Mesut Ozil stepped in to guarantee his wages. There was a sense that with the coronavirus pandemic that the fans were being told, oh, we're in these really difficult circumstances. Because of the pandemic, everyone's got to pull together. We're all in this together. It's a really difficult time. Here you have a move which is based on nothing other than greed. The results of that aren't necessarily or aren't still going to produce a better quality of sport for the fans to enjoy. What it does is maximise the profit-generating ability of these big clubs for their corporate investors. As you said, it takes away the element of jeopardy. While there is, of course, huge inequalities in how the Premier League and how the Champions League functions, and we can also talk about how the Premier League set the model for this breakaway in a minute, there is still, at its heart, an idea of what's called a pyramid of competition. So your little team, if they play really well, they can get promoted. They can make it to the top four of the Premier League, and then suddenly they make it onto the European stage. So your little team, sporting Navarra or Tiskey FC, can make it onto the European stage with the big boys of Real Madrid, Barcelona, and there have been, even with the Champions League being what it is, there have been some really memorable special nights of football. This moves away from that model towards something which is more like a franchise, more like something that you see in America, where you don't have the possibility of these big teams missing out on the most lucrative tournament that they're able to play in. So instead, you've got teams which, by virtue of their financial clout and the prestige, have a permanent place. It's almost like the Football Security Council, except instead of nukes, they've got corporate backers, that they're always going to be there. And it makes it much harder for your little clubs to make it in there and to produce those really wonderful moments that fans of football absolutely adore. The other thing that it does is that it represents another step in the game, getting further away from the fans in terms of accountability, in terms of control, in terms of what fans want to see. Because nobody likes the feeling of their club being relegated. It's a terrible feeling to have. But this idea of the peril that if your club doesn't make a Champions League placement, if it is one of the big six clubs, it's one of the things which keeps football exciting. And it's one of the things that makes it meaningful when, for instance, you had Leicester win the Premier League and make it into the Champions League felt like a really special thing. Now, with all of that gone, what do you have? What you have is essentially the football equivalent of a franchise movie which has run out of ideas. So it just keeps making all of its biggest names and like biggest monsters fight each other. So instead of having kind of new and original movies, you're like, I know, what if we made like Wonder Woman fight Spider-Man and then in the next movie, Spider-Man can fight Batman just again and again and again. So it ends up with a very repetitive kind of football, which the kind of architects of the European Super League will hope to do, will draw in a global audience of more casual football viewers who only ever want to see the big matches. But it represents a betrayal of the fans at quite a fundamental level, as well as presenting huge problems for the players themselves and the managers. I think that's a really good summary. And I suppose just to just to emphasise for people who are a bit new to this, the real key issue here, as Ash said, is the difference between a pyramid structure and a franchise. What we've had in Europe, and we have for nearly all sports actually, is you have a national association which governs the football league, then a European association which governs European football. And it's not managed necessarily by the clubs themselves. And you can go from a lower league, get promoted into a higher league, get promoted again to a higher league. And there is, I mean, it's idealistic to talk about it like this because as Ash said, money comes into it a lot. But there's almost a meritocracy. If you perform well in the second division, you can go up to the first division. The American model, which is how nearly all sports are governed in the United States, is the complete opposite. You have a group of clubs who say, we're going to make a team. No one can be relegated from it. No one could be promoted from it. And it's called a franchise model, because if they decide to expand the league, so the NBA, for example, there won't be a competition to get into that league. So it won't be by merit or by winning games that you get into that league. It will be by buying the franchise. So a big corporate will come along and say, we will buy the franchise for a team in Boston, for example, if that's where there was a gap in the market. So you buy your way into the league instead of qualifying for it, which is why there's a big political element to all of this argument. Now, obviously, that comparison between the franchise model governed purely by the teams and then a pyramid model governed by the the governing associations and the FA or whoever we're talking about, that is the framework which is meaning or which has meant that all of these governing bodies are up in arms about this plan. And they're talking some quite tough words to try and stop it happening. So we're going to get up a statement from UEFA. So that's the governing body for European football. So they released a statement. This was yesterday. So on Sunday, UEFA, the English FA, the RFEF, which is the Spanish version of the FA and the FIGC, which is the governing body of Italian football, the Premier League, La Liga, Liga, Serie A, but also FIFA and all our member associations will remain united in our efforts to stop this cynical project, a project that is founded on the self-interest of a few clubs at a time when society needs solidarity more than ever. We will consider all measures available to us at all levels, both judicial and sporting, in order to prevent this happening. Football is based on open competitions and sporting merit. It cannot be any other way. As previously announced by FIFA and the six Confederations, the club's concern will be banned from playing in any other competition at domestic level, European or world level, and their players could be denied the opportunity to represent their national teams. They also thanked the German and French clubs for not taking part. We'll probably discuss the reasons later why that's the case. Surprise, surprise, it's all down to ownership. What I want to know from you though, Ash, is how this is going to play out, because basically the situation we have now is a massive game of chicken. We have to do some game theory, because essentially what the Super League clubs want to do is they want to say, look, we'll still compete in the Premier League, we'll still compete in the domestic leagues, but instead of the Champions League, we'll have our Super League. The Premier League, they don't want this to happen because it makes their league less significant because it's not by getting into the top four in the Premier League that you get into Europe. Their league will become a bit more redundant. They don't want this to happen. They're saying, well, you can't have both. If you join the Super League, we're kicking you out of the Premier League. The reason it's a game of chicken is because the Super League clubs, Arsenal, Manu, whatever, they're going to say to the Premier League, really, you're going to kick out your six most successful clubs, your six richest clubs who bring in so much of the revenue. You're going to kick us out. We don't believe it. And the FA are going to say, no, we're serious about this. You really want to leave the Premier League to join the Super League. There's going to be a revolution among your fans if you allow yourselves to be kicked out of the Premier League. So there's this huge game of chicken. And I have to say, I've got no idea who's going to win. Ash, who do you think will fold first? Will it be the Super League clubs or will it be the FA and UEFA? Well, you know what? This is an old story. And this is why this story has salience, which is much bigger than simply the world of football. Who is going to win? Is it going to be national and transnational organizations, or is it going to be international finance? Right? That's the two sets of interest, which are ranged against each other at the moment. For what it's worth, I can't remember a time in football, and there have been breakaway leagues before, most notably the Premier League, where there has been outcry not only from, you know, the FA, UEFA, FIFA, and from national governments. This is something which has been condemned by Keir Starmer, Boris Johnson, Emmanuel Macron. I can't remember a time where that has happened before. And also you've got, while on the one hand fans are historically disempowered in terms of ownership and representation at the level of club bureaucracy and decision making, you do have an amplification of fans' voices through social media in a way that you didn't really have before. So I think that that's something which kind of, you know, doesn't make it clear necessarily that the clout of J.P. Morgan's financial backing, which really is significant, is going to win the day. When it comes to the levers at the disposal of the FA, the Premier League, and UEFA, or one of the things they can do is immediately kick out Mandity, Chelsea, Real Madrid from the Champions League. Another thing that the Premier League could choose to do would be to relegate or dock points from the big six clubs, which announced the breakaway, as well as refusing to give them the permission to play in this league at all. The FA has to give permission for the big six English clubs to be able to compete in a European Super League in the first place. So that would present a very difficult choice for these clubs, which is, well, do you then give up your chance to play in the domestic league, which is still, at this point, in the small part due to the outsized clout of these clubs, the most profitable domestic league in the world? And then you've got an element which is, well, what do the players want and what does management want? You have figures like Jürgen Klopp, who, as recently as 2019, he's the manager of Liverpool for, just to explain, Jürgen Klopp, who is, as recently as 2019, spoke out against the creation of the European Super League. Jose Mourinho, who was sacked today probably for reasons not 100% related to the Super League, also in the past has expressed skepticism towards the idea. Venga, the former manager of Arsenal as well, spoke out against such an idea before saying that it would be unfair and unsportsmanlike. So you do have, I think, an issue within the teams themselves about can they force this through? Because another thing that FIFA have said is that, well, okay, well, if your players who want to play for this European Super League, you're not then going to be able to play for your national side when it comes to the World Cup. Now, if you're a player like Harry Kane, who is the Tottenham captain, as much as it pains me to say it, it's highly unlikely that he is going to know touch of silverware, certainly not a Champions League trophy with Tottenham. Winning the Premier League, well, we keep on fucking that up again unlikely. We've got the Cup Final, the Carabao Cup this Sunday, and our manager got sacked six days before. So who knows how that's going to go. If you're Harry Kane and you're the England captain as well as the Tottenham captain, and there are all sorts of lucrative sponsorship deals that come with that, as well as the prestige of the position, are you going to willingly give up and say, I'm completely fine without playing for my national side anymore? Again, these are all questions which are up in the air. And these are the levers which are available to these institutions, which very much represent the old and indeed flawed guard of football who are up against these new billionaire backed interests. The Super Chats are on fire today, guys. Chris Hill with 50 quid. Thank you very much. Ash is right. This is much more than just football. This is an example of the march of the financiers. Absolutely right. That's where the politics gets in. We're going to look at some of those clips in a moment of the politicians speaking out against this. Samuel Wicks with a fiver says, kick the six out now. I wholly agree. But I do think they do have a lot of clout. I mean, if the Premier League kicks out the big six teams, you know, less people are going to watch the Premier League, aren't they? So it's, you know, it is about who can call each other. Who can call who's bluff? Raji Adi with 999. Why don't the fans call for a boycott? Who wants to watch a rigged game? Now, that's a really, really interesting point because what's probably most cynical about this move? You know, and there's lots that's incredibly cynical about this move is the reason it seems possible now is because there aren't any fans in the stadium anyway, because of COVID. So if they'd have done this when there were big matches this weekend and you could have had a really dramatic walk out from the fans, that would have been a massive political statement that would have probably scared the owners or at least made the players feel a bit embarrassed or think twice. But the players, the managers, the owners, they have much less contact with the fans than they have, I suppose ever before, because no fans have been in the stadium for a couple of years. So yes, I mean, how would you do a boycott of the fans when the fans aren't allowed in the stadium anyway? I suppose you could do a long term one, but by then maybe the, you know, the decision's already happened. Let's go to the political responses. So you wait for all the football leagues, they'll be weighing up how much power, how much influence they have, how much leverage they have against plans for the super league. They probably will have got some solace or some confidence from the level of unity on the side of politicians. The European Commission Vice President today, Margarita Sheenis, today said the proposed super league threatens continental values and Boris Johnson this morning said he'll do whatever he can to make sure the super league doesn't go ahead in the way it's currently being proposed. We're going to look at everything that we can do with the football authorities to make sure that this doesn't go ahead in the way that it's currently being proposed. I don't think that it is good news for fans. I don't think it's good news for football in this country. And don't forget, these clubs are not just great global brands. Of course they're great global brands. They're also clubs that have originated historically from their towns, from their cities, from their local communities. They should have a link with those fans and with the fan base in those in their communities. So it is very, very important that that continues to be the case. I don't like the look of these, the proposals and we'll be consulting about what we can do. The housing minister Christopher Pinscher earlier told Sky News the super league plans were by the elite for the elite and of the elite. Now that's a phrase very reminiscent of Labour's former leader Jeremy Corbyn who himself made an appearance today to speak out against the plans. Well they've made strong statements but they need to follow that up. They need to follow that up with the policies I believe that we put forward which is about democratic participation in this where the fans get a real voice, they get to say what's going on, they get to fix on ticket prices as well. The German model is basically quite a good one. It's very interesting that the German clubs have all said they want nothing to do with this. And the other club so far named seems to be a huge imbalance with six English clubs in of a league that's going to be of 12. Well of course I love the English football we'll do but it's not the only show in town. There's lots of other football all across Europe. Surely they need some fair participation. This super league idea is a real no-no. It's based on greed, it's based on damaging football for the want of making a great deal of money out of it and turning it into a global brand. Right and you mentioned the manifesto, the Labour manifesto in 2019 where there were proposals as you say to look at the governance and regulation. Now Keir Starmas repeatedly said the party is under new management but presumably you'd like him to keep that bit of the manifesto. Well that part of the manifesto as indeed many other parts was very very popular and I would have thought it would be good sense to not just keep that policy but to expand it and now to consult with the entire football community under how this more democratic model will actually work but above all it is about redistributing the wealth of football into the totality of the game. Otherwise where are the stars of tomorrow if we don't find the grassroots football properly today? One of those moments where Corbyn's ideas are really coming into their own sadly after he's left the scene as Labour leader. The German model which he mentioned there very much worth pausing on. In Germany no club can be owned by corporations. There is 51% of the shares of any club reserved for fans so you can have a billionaire who invests in the club but they can only buy up to 49% of the shares. It will always be the fans in control which is as Corbyn points out why no German clubs have bought into this model which fans everywhere hate. As for what the Labour front bench are calling for I think they've called for a fan led review. They always call for reviews. I would say they should just come out now and call for the German model. I don't see any reason not to. Finally in case you thought you needed an opinion from the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge they have also tweeted about this which I think we can get up now. What do they have to say? Or maybe we don't we do now more than ever we must protect the entire football community from the top level to the grassroots and the values of competition and fairness at its core. I share the concerns of fans about proposed super league and the damage it risks causing to the game we love. W which I assume is from William. Let's quickly run through those owners because obviously the big issue here is money. It's that in this country unlike in Germany it's not the fans who have control over their clubs. It is the billionaires who bought them and it is worth I think mentioning who these people are because to me it just seems completely bizarre well not bizarre because I know how it happened but completely outrageous that we let these people come and control you know Britain's national game the game that we're most passionate and proud about and and we've let it be bought out by some fairly disreputable people. Let's go through them one by one so Arsenal are owned as Ash said earlier by Stan Kronke he is a US billionaire he owns loads of American sports teams. He's also married to the daughter of the founder of Walmart and he bought majority shares in Arsenal in 2011. Liverpool they've been owned since 2010 by American banker John W Henry. Now John W Henry also owns the Boston Red Sox they're a baseball team the Boston Globe which is a newspaper and co-owner of the Roosh Fenway of Roosh Fenway racing which is a team in the American version of Formula One. Now there are lots of three of the six actually owned by Americans and that's relevant because they're basically trying to export the franchise model into our system they think we love the franchise model it gives us really secure stable profits which we can always rely on what the hell are they doing with relegation and promotion it doesn't make any sense so I think really there is a driver coming from Americans American money and the American model trying to be introduced here let's go through some more Manchester City are owned by Sheikh Mansour bin Zayed Al-Nayan who is an oil billionaire and a member of the Abu Dhabi royal family he's owned the club since 2008 and he also owns a yacht worth half a billion dollars so these are the people who just weren't making enough money from these teams so they had to sell out the fans so they could make more he's already got a yacht worth half a billion dollars why does he need this? Chelsea you probably know is owned by Russian billionaire Roman Abramovich and he bought the club in 2003 and he made most of his money in the fire sale of Russian assets after the collapse of the Soviet Union so he's also already I suppose you know stolen the wealth of one nation and now he's selling out the the wealth of another Manchester United have been owned by the American billionaire Michael Glazer and his family since 2003 the Glazers bought the club with loans secured against the club's assets so he's been hated forever because basically his only gift to the club was shed loads of debt borrowed money to buy the club and then the club had to pay back those debts finally Tottenham as Ash has mentioned they're owned by a Bahamas based investment fund called Enoch Group and that's owned by Joe Lewis who is pictured on the left Daniel Levy on the right of this image is the club's chairman he also owns shares in Enoch why do all of these billionaires want this model as we've already implied its money but let's go into a little bit more detail about why they think they'll make more from this and the financial arrangements which are underlying the super league the financial times had some good details on this so the the first thing you need to know is that this is in part being organized behind the scenes by the US investment bank JP Morgan or at least in partnership with JP Morgan they've put up a 3.25 billion euro grant upfront the clubs that join will get that as soon as this is launched it will work out as a welcome bonus of 200 to 300 million euros per club of course JP Morgan aren't doing this you know from the goodness of their hearts they're going to get money back from future TV rights they're expecting a two to three percent return per year on the investments is a coalition of American billionaires and American big banks according to the FT also the revenue will be huge so in the long run they think they're going to get more money from TV rights than they did in the Champions League so the FT reports the super leagues organizers have held early discussions with broadcasters about the competition according to people familiar with the talks seeking to secure deals with the likes of Amazon Facebook Disney and Comcast owned Sky that would raise annual revenues worth four billion euros a year which is roughly double the amount earned by the Champions League which is the continent's top annual club competition as you can see that they've got money from investment bankers they think they can make twice as much money as the Champions League makes in TV rights but the revenue will be controlled not by an external agency which in the case of the Champions League is UEFA but by the 15 clubs who control the franchise so any money that comes through from the TV rights will be controlled by the clubs and only by the clubs to hit the like button if you are enjoying what you're watching the backlash to the plans for a breakaway super league has been enormous and involved many of the most prominent people in British football it's also taken quite an overtly political form this was Gary Neville railing against the plans on Sky Sports on Sunday well the reaction to it is that it's been damned and rightly so I mean I'm a man's united fan have been for 40 years of my life but I'm disgusted absolutely disgusted I'm disgusted with Man's United Liverpool most I mean Liverpool they pretend you'll never walk alone the People's Club the fans club Man's United a hundred years born out of workers around here and they're breaking away into a league without competition that they can't be relegated from it's an absolute disgrace and honestly we have to wrestle back the power in this country from the clubs at the top of this league and that includes my club and I've been calling for 12 months as part of another group for an independent regulator to bring checks and balances in place to stop this happening it's pure greed they're imposters they're imposters they're nothing to do the owners of this club the owners of Liverpool the owners of Chelsea the owners of Manchester City they're nothing to do with football in this country there are hundred not years of history in this country from fans that have lived and loved these clubs and they need protecting the fans need protecting I've benefited from football hugely I've made money out of football I invest money into a football club now I'm not against money in football but the principles and ethos of fair competition and the rights to play the game so that lester win the league they go into the Champions League Man's United aren't even in the Champions League I asked why aren't even in the Champions League you watched them earlier on today perhaps look shambles of a football club at the moment Tottenham man in the Champions League and they want a god given right to be in there they're an absolute joke and honestly the time has come now independent regulator stop these clubs having the power base enough is enough and that was one of the most rousing political speeches I've seen for a very long time um almost I don't know so maybe there's a chill but I've almost got goosebumps which is very strange because I'm really not that passionate about football but this is very very outrageous ash that video has been viewed 6.6 million times already should the billionaires behind the super league be afraid of of gary never won his like well yes and no yes in terms of I've honestly never seen the tide of public opinion being backed up by the bulk of the sports commentary out being bulked up being backed up by the entirety of of you know the associations which govern both national and international football and also being backed up by international governments as well this is something which simply not really happened um in the history of football before but the thing to bear in mind is that there has been decades and decades of drift in precisely this direction now I thought Gary Neville put the point absolutely perfectly I think that he diagnosed the problem and he talked about what the issue actually is exceptionally well but there was a layer of irony that he was doing so while holding a sky sports microphone to his lips because in so many ways the very foundation of the premier league and the broadcasting deal which was struck with Rupert Murdoch and sky is the template which is being built on and followed up on with this European super league initially the premier league was formed by I think it was five initial breakaway clubs the big ones getting together with Greg Dyke and it was initially supposed to be a deal struck with ITV to try and you know who've wrote lucrative commercial broadcasting contracts and start doling them out that was the foundation of the premier league now the FA at that time this was back in in the early 90s were really asleep on the watch there was so casual about this question of rights and ownership that they were just sort of happy to let you know these big clubs hold sway and dictate the terms of this deal so even though the premier league um still I think in companies houses registered as as you know in some papers as the FA premier league the FA has got absolutely nothing to do with it so the seeds of this crisis where you know English football was very very lax about who owns what those were planted many years ago and the irony is is that this was supposed to be a huge payday for ITV when the premier league was supposed to be set up then Alan sugar who was at the time the owner of Tottenham privately advised Rupert Murdoch to blow them out of the water with an offer so Sky beat ITV's offer by I think it was about 42 million pounds so I think what this sort of shows you in lots of ways is that Gary Neville of course is completely right to take this principled stand against the European super league and every word coming out of his mouth is correct however there has been so much drift in this direction in terms of the governing organizations in particularly in particular UEFA the trust is so so low and even today UEFA announced that they would make the changes to the Champions League format that the big clubs had all been demanding so even now even now when you've got this scandalous breakaway which completely spits in the eye of the idea of fair play and competition and spirit of the game you have UEFA kowtowing to these big money interests so Gary Neville is completely right but we also should take a step back and be skeptical of the context that this has emerged in you know that's super interesting and I mean I suppose the issue is because why why this generation of the super league is different to anything that's happened before is because it undermines the pyramid model of football the Premier League when it started it didn't undermine the fact that you can get promoted to it and relegated from it it still fit with the model of of of how football works in this country what it did do though was give the clubs more control over TV rights which is one of the reasons why football became such a big business and that's how we ended up with billionaire owners and that's how we ended up with clubs with the power to blow up the whole system but why it didn't create such opposition at the time is because it didn't undermine undermine the fundamental structure of football even if it led to the conditions which would then blow it up even though I take all of your points about Gary Neville's microphone saying sky on it and how that is somewhat incongruous with what he's saying I do want to have a look at more of what he said because again as you say everything he's saying is absolutely right and what I want you to pay particular attention to this time is I've said and before on tonight's show that one of the the key issues here is whether or not the FA will hold firm against the clubs that want to form the super league and kick them out of the league or if they will fold and say actually to be honest you've got too much power we'll have to come to some kind of accommodation now it's people like Gary Neville who are really really pushing them to play hardball let's take a look. There does seem to be the suggestion that they would need permission from the Premier League to take part and without it it would have to be a breakaway not just from UEFA competition but from our domestic competition as well Gary so with that in mind let's be clear about this what is the motivation? Well you know what the motivation is it's greed Dave my reaction earlier on wasn't an emotional reaction deduct them all points tomorrow put them at the bottom of the league and take the money off them seriously you have got to stamp on this this is a it's criminal it's a criminal act against football fans in this country make no mistake about it this is the biggest sport in the world this is the biggest sport in this country and it's a criminal act against the fans simple as that deduct points deduct their money and punish them. Do you think these clubs would have the courage knowing how much widespread condemnation there is to go through with it Gary? Dave the bottle merchants you never hear from the owners of these clubs absolute bottle merchants they've got no voice and then they'll probably hide in a few weeks and say it was nothing to do with them you know they were only talking about it seriously in the midst of a pandemic an economic crisis football clubs at national league level going bust nearly furloughing players clubs on the edge in league one and two and these lot are having zoom calls about breaking away and basically creating more greed joke. Again so passionate so right and as I say he's there saying the FA need to go hard and he's been keeping that up today I want to show you a tweet and from Gary Neville this afternoon he said this lot think they can sweep up 300 million pounds more each season than the other teams and then wander back on a Saturday and play with that advantage in the Premier League deduct points fine heavily and embargo transfers I hope they haven't bought some of the other 14 clubs now that's a reference saying helps if they haven't bought off some of the other clubs in the in the Premier League so for example that's completely hypothetical maybe Arsenal say look if you if you don't massively oppose this West Ham will help you out with a sort of loan scheme I've got no idea also very entertaining from Gary Neville with his commentary on a game he is commentating tonight so that will be Leeds versus Liverpool probably on right now it's our competition I shouldn't really be advertising it but he's tweeted about that twice so he says I'm quote tweeting the advert for that game Leeds players should walk to the side of the pitch and just let them keep scoring they don't want competition he goes on join us if you like for Leeds versus Greeds now I'm hoping this is going to be amped up basically just casting scorn on the teams who have been so I suppose so careless and so selfish in this case if we see the whole of society pouring scorn on them then you know it is going to be hard and will we see some of the players speaking up that's going to be very very crucial there are some signs so we haven't had any of the big players from any of the teams who have joined it speak out they're obviously worried that if they speak out against their paymasters the people who pay their extortionate wages that might get them in some trouble but we have seen some top footballers speak out against the Super League and quite significantly one of them was one of PSG's top players so this was a club which was touted as going to be part of the Super League it now seems like they won't and the fact that their players are publicly speaking out against it makes it seem you know even more likely they won't this is Ander Herrera he tweets I fell in love with popular football with the football of the fans with the dream of seeing the team of my heart compete against the greatest if this European Super League advances those dreams are over the illusions of fans of the teams that are not giants of being able to win on the field competing in the best competitions will end I love football and I cannot remain silent about this I believe in an improved Champions League but not in the rich stealing what the people created which is nothing other than the most beautiful sport on the planet and again here what I love there and especially as someone who you know I watch a bit of football but I can't say I'm passionate about it is how this is really bringing out some really political and quite moving language from people you know he he wants he doesn't like the rich stealing what the people created that's a really powerful message to be sending out from a footballer with millions and millions of followers and it got me asking could this moment be a really radicalizing one for a huge space in the country you know the reach of football is incomparable nothing compares to it and we are seeing signs on social media and on sky news of yeah people coming out with really really political statements and really really left wing statements actually real socialist radical statements one example of that is Lawrence McKenna he's a football streamer comments on on football on on youtube has loads of followers on twitch he has a clip which went absolutely viral over a million views after the announcement of the super league let's take a look the premier league have stalled and stuttered throughout covid every time that we have asked them to be transparent they have been a bleak every time that we've asked them for an answer they've gone well not we don't know if actually this is and basically the top six who are making need to make cash at some point and have got an investment are going we're fucking sick of people who are incompetent running our shit if you let us run this we'll make massive profit and they've come along put an offer on the table before the premier league did why is anyone first of all surprised secondly why is anyone outraged that in the premier league which was based on money came out of a thatcher government anyway and is based on a bullshit idea that you can make as much money as you want why is anyone surprised that they're saying this you invite the billionaires in i don't even turn on you you fucking idiots i don't think everyone thinks anyone who thought this wasn't going to come around when the top six is is owned by people who are who have self-interest is deluded and it's because we've allowed sky and the fucking premier league and the f8 to lie to us for years and tell us that we're in a good position we have the best league in the world it's bullshit and i'm sick of being patronized as a fan and told by the times and all these other people owned by fucking rupert murdoch that you've got a good deal you should just stick here do you know why he says that do you know why sky say this because it benefits them so we're just it's either a billionaire that wins with sky or it's a billionaire that wins on the other side now the first thing i'm going to tell you is that that was laurence mckenna and he is going to be here on our channel tomorrow night Tuesday for downstream speaking to ash sarkar if you don't want to miss that hit subscribe and turn notifications on we'll see you there now ash i want your thoughts on what laurence mckenna said there and also you know the impact you think this move could have on politics more generally because i'm watching some of this i'm feeling quite you know excited well i mean so one laurence was completely right especially how he linked this to the origins of the premier league which we discussed a bit earlier but what it also points to is exactly why this is so important outside of the context of football because i know that we've got a lot of viewers tonight who are probably not that interested in football who maybe found some of the aspects of football culture a bit alienating or even a bit kind of hostile and i understand that not everybody has to be into the same kinds of things but what this whole shameful episode shows is that when it comes to neoliberalism and the financialization of everything there is no end point there is no point at which other values or indeed the value of so-called customers and consumers will override the profit motive it will just keep going on and on and i think what this has been has been a wake-up call for football fans is that for a very long time now they've not been the customers they've not been the customers they've been a product who's been sold to be advertised to they've had their money extracted from them in terms of ever increasing ticket prices and ever increasing you know sky sports packages and the like and meanwhile the actual experience of going to see the football um how much has it improved how much has it uh you know improved in terms of quality and a sense of community and a sense of joy um compared to 30 or 40 years ago it hasn't but it has become much more financialized and in treating uh you know fans like customers well it turns out fans aren't even you know deigned to be worthy of customers rights so i think that what it does is that it shows neoliberalism for the sham of what it is and there's no such thing as consumer rights there's just consuming you get what you're given and that's it and i think what whether or not this is to be a politicizing moment of course it then depends on the kind of organizations um which are there ready to direct the energy and the anger but what i hope it can do is show once and for all that the profit motive is not the best way of determining the value of something it's a phrase which is repeated again and again which is that you know a capitalist sees a forest and determines that it's got the most values when all the trees are cut down something similar with football there are all these things which are valuable about it which in some ways require the subordination of the profit motive so when you look at what goes on in germany with the 50 plus one model now with the 50 plus one model which does mean that football in germany is less lucrative than in other countries particularly when you compare uh you know to those top top teams in la liga or in the premier league you know they're at a disadvantage but if that model was to be adopted across the whole of european football of course it would be a vast improvement because you look at what else they've been able to do because it's majority fan-owned there are a couple of exceptions to that um because you can apply for an exemption to the 50 plus one rule if your investor demonstrates a commitment of 20 years or longer to the club but for the rest of the clubs what they've had to do but in that context is one you have you know on average uh more tickets being sold so you've got you know way more spectators in per football match two you've got a much closer relationship between fans and the football there's a real sense of of community spirit and involvement there and three what that leads to is a sense of yeah you've got these incredible teams and it's not an equal playing field at all there's a reason why you know Bayern and Dortmund are so regularly seen in the champions league certainly not you know as meritocratic as we would like it to be but there is certainly a sense of of cultural value of community value and grassroots connection that in german football they've been able to maintain to a certain degree that we've almost entirely lost in this country um another thing which i think is about the skewing of the value is i don't like the the idea that by virtue of the financial clout that is able to wield that Tottenham Hotspur has an has inherently more value than you know barnsley fc or you know because of the the lineage and the prestige is is so much better than you know Leeds United Leeds are probably not going to make it into the champions league i mean those days of you know Don Revy uh and Brian clough along behind them but you look at what they're doing in the premier league that you know fast style open play there's a joy in it and you can see in terms of you know the celebrations in the streets when Leeds achieve promotion you know their value in playing football and their ability to play games against the biggest teams it can't simply be measured in terms of their success or their ability to make it into the champions league or indeed the revenue that they're able to extract is part of this tapestry which makes this cultural form great and when you subordinate all of that to profit what do you lose well you lose everything and this is the thing is that it's not just about football this can happen in any industry in any sport in anything that you find valuable and enriching which isn't literally the job you do this can happen and this is why it matters so much and that's why not only must the european super league be stopped but this must be an opportunity i think for democratic management and ownership of football clubs to put the control back where it belongs and that's with the people who made the sport great in the first place very inspiring call to arms this this story i mean it's a really bad story it's a bad move it's really bringing out you know some fire in people's belly i know you've always got fire in your belly ash but i was i was moved again by that just like with gary neville and let's go to some comments they're still popping off we've got 3000 people watching great always great to see do make sure you hit the like button um reberta jm with a fiver i am brazilian living in the uk do not like football but i'm intensely interested in this story amen me too i'm buzzing with this story vanta black with a tenor please let the big six go off into their fantasy football league true grassroots football we will assimilate and grow better peace i see where you're coming from i do think it will be difficult you know as so many people have been saying on on television part of the romance of football is that you you might get to the top you might compete with the very best if you have the very best who are off in this completely different world you know i mean i imagine there will be lots of people that have been for ages lots of people dumping those big clubs which they see as complete the money grabbing when it comes to ticket prices etc and and supporting smaller teams but people still do enjoy watching you know the superstars um play each other um chris hill with 30 quid oh my god it really is a finance sector driven smash and grab very well but very biffy um mafio with a fiver between uafers weak response to racist abuse of camera at ranges to the european super league we might be at a point where the platitude the game's gone is accurate um interesting depressing take i suppose i spoke for me and again i'm not an expert on football this to me feels like a battle that's really worth fighting because it seems winnable and it seems in the process um it's you know really putting on show some of the worst parts of the the neoliberal system we currently live under my court dearie with a tenor the f a allowed these vultures to come in and destroy our clubs man united were built by busby and furgy and now the glazes are selling the great clubs rotted courts for easy money sickens me um which is a sentiment being expressed by so many people across the country right now yeah as i say i don't think many people are going to feel sympathy for the f a if they lose this battle but it just so happens that it's in many people's interests for the f a to win this battle hopefully if they do win then afterwards um people will you know make sure they behave slightly more honorably in future we're going to move on from football to another of the two big stories of the day before um i move on i do just want to remind you lorence mckenna that guy you saw in that brilliant brilliant video the most recent one we showed you is on downstream tomorrow night with ash sarca if you haven't subscribed already make sure you do and if you're as excited about this story as so many people in those comments and and i am an ashes do make sure you tune into downstream tomorrow night our first non non football story on may the seventh wales will elect a new parliament and on itv last night the leaders of the welsh parties who will reach standing to be first minister engaged in their first televised debate now unsurprisingly it was the response to covet which dominated the discussion and wherever you live in the uk it's really interesting to see how this went down mainly or mainly for me at least when i watched it it's because it it's the only opportunity really we have to see how the arguments about covet pan out when it's a labor government who are in power so we see here it's it's the labor party who are making the opposition arguments they're saying the government hasn't done this quite right in wales labor are the government so to that end i'm going to show you the three leaders answering a question on what should have been done differently during the pandemic first is labors mark drakeford who has been first minister for the past three years well had we known back in march 2020 just how quickly coronavirus was going to have spread i think it's common between all four nations of the united kingdom that we would have moved more quickly to introduce restrictions before the first wave of coronavirus took a hold but that is to look back and to think of what we know now which we didn't know then but if i if one thing stands out in my mind knowing what we now know it's that we would have moved more quickly to introduce restrictions than we were able to in the state of knowledge at the time so what i found very interesting there is he's sounding you know to be honest he's sounding a bit more respectful and serious than boris johnson but it's similar talking points which are being emphasized as in west minster in for the governing party which is to say or to emphasize the fact that we didn't have all the knowledge at the time the mistakes we made was because of a lack of information not because of bad decisions that we made obviously wales went into a lockdown at the same time as england did in march so how are the opposition parties talking who do they sound most like adam price is the leader of played kim roo he adopts what looked to me like many of the critiques labor has been offering in west minster the welsh government and the uk government were too slow into lockdown and remember we us in plike emory calling for the cancellation of the wales scotland game for example which the the welsh government were resistant to i i think as well he was a mistake at that time in march last year to to move away from the test and trace system so we the welsh government and the uk government abandoned testing and tracing even though the w h o was was was saying that had to be absolutely central and of course we learned that lesson later on and i think critically we failed to focus on the care sector in particular in terms of getting adequate pp which was a problem in the nhs as well but also we didn't test asymptomatic people even though the science was suggesting that we should and as a result of that we put the care sector i think are necessarily in harm's way so what adam price from plight is saying that you could imagine being said by a labor politician in west minster or indeed a conservative politician in scotland where those similar arguments are being made against the s n p um finally let's go to the tory candidate in welsh it's andrew davies and he to me sounds a lot like a west minster tory backbencher three things from patience's question that i'd respond to the first one is that back in the summer i'd like to have seen greater urgency in reopening the nhs and getting elective surgery going when we had low instances of co vid so i think there was an opportunity there secondly i think there should have been a greater clarity around a roadmap in particular about getting us back on our feet coming out to this current lockdown and then thirdly i'd like to have seen greater national agreement where the governments of the uk could have agreed on national messaging so there's greater clarity for people to understand what was expected of them so there you heard i mean again it sounds like a tory backbencher he's basically focused on we could have locked down or unlocked down quicker um to discuss the set of pandemic elections where labor are in power i'm joined by harry up proffero sultani a welsh activist and friend of the show um welcome and thank you actually i have to say for waiting quite well because we talked about football for a bit longer than we were expecting to what i want to get you to explain to me first of all is whether i am correct to introduce this as an election which will mainly be about co vid and mainly um about mark drakeford's record when it comes to the co vid crisis very interesting question so there are kind of two key issues that we're seeing at the moment there is definitely around the pandemic and mark drakeford's response to the pandemic um like a lot of people didn't know what devolution was until this pandemic there were people who didn't have an understanding that like the welsh parliament could control certain laws and does control certain laws so there's definitely a spotlight on on mark drakeford now uh but the other key issue is also around independence or not and this is this is a big issue this come up during the pandemic many people have been pushed towards this discussion during the pandemic so these are two key things that we're kind of battling out at the moment and you see it in some of the leaders debate where there's a kind of back and forth between andrew arty davis and adan price about whether people are interested in the constitution or whether they're interested in a roadmap to recovery and i think we probably say that both things are true at once to be honest and i'm glad you brought that up actually because we've got that clip next um because the other issue in in this election as you say is independence from my perspective it seems a bit less urgent than it does in scotland although i'll ask you about that in a moment first of all um this was plied adan price making the case for a referendum in last night it would be a distraction can you deal with the accusation they do with being a distraction look what what course it would be the only it's the only way ultimately there's no solution to wheels's problems in west minster the only solution is if we take a future into our own hands and what i say to people watching tonight look we're as yet unconvinced about the independence message give us a chance give us a chance to show you what wheels can achieve with a change in government and that would dissuade you but we are the nation driver the keys to your card if you let plied come the other independence thank you thank you very much very heated there at the same time i mean plied aren't really in contention for entering government in the world's parliament this isn't a similar situation to that in scotland where actually all that's in debate is how by how much the smp will win is is independence for wales a significant force in this election or is it something that we should sort of keep an eye out for for years and even generations to come right nothing that's true michael i think that so for example labour is not pulling well at all in wales we're pulling probably the worst that we have ever pulled in the history of the wales labour party being formed which is really worrying which means we could means we could end up in a coalition with plied comry so this is a very very real possibility and there are lots of discussions going on at the moment around you know what will be offered around the independence debate it seems to be that the consensus is around having the mechanism to be able to have a discussion around independence so not having a referendum in and of itself but that the mechanism would be in place so yeah at the moment we are looking to if we look at the polling from 2019 or how we did in 2019 there are potentially seven seats that we could lose that's veil of fluid fluid south rexam delin veil of glmorgan the gawa and potentially a new port seat if we lose seven seats that means we're down to about 22 seats which is extremely bad polling the other huge worry is that the tories become the largest party in wales the first time in history the tories could become the largest i'm just going to say that again can't become the largest party in wales blows my mind um but this is where we're at labour are going to do so badly um that we might end up in a coalition and tories largest party so it's not a good situation for us you're absolutely right i can't believe i didn't think of that so in terms of the polling the latest you gov has labour on 32 the conservatives on 30 and plied on 23 which for me made me instantly think ah they can't be in contention for government obviously it's proportional representation and as you say we could be looking at a labour plied coalition government so they are aiming to to enter power even if not to even if not adam prices is looking to become first minister and we're going to look at one final clip from that um leaders debate this one is less serious um more surreal um actually so the debate ended with a question about who the leaders would like to go for a pint with when the lockdown ends mark drakeford went for doctors and nurses so he could thank them for the work they've done during the pandemic adam price went for his mum and dad andrew davis andrew davis's answer for the conservatives was a little weirder let's take a look uh andrew arty davis well as is my birthday recently and my favorite cake is calling the caterpillar which has been in the news lately i'd love to find out who designed the recipe or created the recipe for that and i'd like to buy him or a pint you've you've you've just told me before we showed that clip that the conservatives could actually come out of this as the largest party is there any chance that andrew davis will be the first minister of of wales like over my dead body right like this is not going to happen um this the numbers wouldn't potentially step like we'd have to do extremely badly and a coalition discussion fall before that was to happen the really sad thing is is that people have a perception of the tories in wales based on borris johnson and borris johnson being like oh he's a funny lad or bloody borris our hero when actually the leaders andrew arty davis who is the biggest numpty you have ever seen in your life like he can't even speak he doesn't have any emotion michael he sounds like more like what the hell unlike these politicians like andrew arty davis it's almost as if like you've scraped the bottom of the like worst barrel you've got and you've got someone like him and sadly people in wales have been absolutely duped into by proxy voting for him when you know they vote him for for borris and the tories yeah it's really really depressing but hopefully it will get a coalition and uh we will be in this situation so who knows oh that's interesting but so borris johnson polls above the candidate for for first minister there because i was i was wondering if it was maybe the opposite because if i was a tory politician and i was asked who would you go for a drink with after the lockdown i'd say borris johnson because you know he's famously someone people would like to go for a drink with and he would want to associate himself with a tory leader i was assuming he didn't want to associate himself with a tory leader is that wrong borris johnson is is quite popular in in wales look no one knows who andrew arty davis is no one no one knew who mark draigford was until the pandemic so when people are voting tory they voted on the perception of borris whether borris is that popular i don't know i'm just speaking to where that vote is going harriet proffero sartani thank you so much for for joining us it's been a a whirlwind tour of wales politics i'm sure you know we haven't we haven't done it justice but we will talk about it more on on future shows as well harriet thank you so much thank you if you are enjoying the show so far please do offer us your support this show is only possible because of our regular donors if you are already a regular supporter thank you so much if not please do go to navarameda.com slash support and donate the equivalent of one hour's wage a month our final story for the evening is an entertaining one the pandemic has undoubtedly presented britain's politicians with some serious challenges but it's also had some less discussed benefits for mps foremost among those is the lockdown has meant our often socially awkward political leaders haven't had to spend much time engaging with the often course general public well we've locked down over that privilege has also gone by the wayside mps are once again out and about meeting strangers and today that included kia starmer who was out campaigning in barf he found out quite how predictable unpredictable the public can be one do you understand we have fucked our economy because old people are dying do you see this graph the last time we had this much debt was 2008 that's the british medical journal no i came here to speak to this man not your security you have failed me thank you we i've been a labor vote of my entire life you have failed to be the opposition you've failed to ask where the lockdown there's a car just behind can we just do you understand should we go in thousands of people have died because you have failed to do your job and ask the real question well i am telling you now and i hope this goes out you have failed this country you have seriously felt you have allowed our children to wear masks in school when it's never been any evidence for it do you want to come on in here that clip was filmed by steven summons a local reporter in barf now what was going on there i hope you could hear it all obviously you know that wasn't a planned conversation to be happening in that situation kiestama was i mean quite notably actually he was going around barf both to campaign for the mayoralty the west of england but also to talk about um the the difficulties that hospitality had had he then speaks to this guy who's very very annoyed that the lockdowns happened because it cost jobs and he says lives it's worth pointing out what that guy was saying was complete bullshit i mean he's basically putting forward this argument that we've heard so often that the lockdowns were a were a bad thing we should have just let people die from covid because they were old anyway we know because of studies that the average person who died from covid in the uk would have lived for another 10 years so this is a significant amount of time and obviously that's an average so there'll be lots of people who passed away who would have lived for another 30 years so this is not just people who were already on deaf store passing away even if it were as we said on the show the fact that people had to die alone and in quite horrific conditions doesn't you know it's still something that's really really bad kiestama's response at first i was a bit like come on ki you can you can argue with this guy why are you walking away in the end actually i think the argument was fairly good say you know my wife works in the nhs obviously he loves that line but he says i won't take lectures on the seriousness of this pandemic because i speak to people who work on the front line good argument what happens next though is much more dramatic and that's because kiestama and his team try and escape this lockdown skeptic by heading into a pub but what they don't seem to have realized is that the lockdown skeptic is in fact the pub landlord let's take a look is not allowed in my pub get out of my pub go on get out of my pub so after that clip went viral there were discussions about whether the security was a little too tough with the landlord some people pointed out the fact that kiestama handed the landlord back his glasses which said was very gentlemanly um a lot of focus was also on why kiestama's team apparently it seemed hadn't scoped out the pub before going in normally if a leader of a major party is going to visit an establishment you'd assume that they're not going to get shouted out by the landlord because you'd have probably have spoken to the landlord beforehand well that's where the story gets a little bit weirder still because it turned out that kiestama's team had in fact scoped out the pub and kiestama had actually been invited it just so happens he'd been invited by the pub's other landlord so unbeknownst to kiestama's team the landlord they spoke to who was quite positive about kiestama and quite positive about lockdowns didn't tell them about his covid skeptic mate who also owns the pub um it was tim tim perry who runs the pub alongside the man who confronted kiestama who invited the labour leader to visit he seemed quite embarrassed by the whole ordeal when he was spoken to by a journalist today pub is getting blamed for and we're getting death by social media when actually rots the one that held those opinions not me so there you go that's it but when i tweeted that out today someone replied which i thought was very entertaining to say that those two owners of a pub it would make a very good sitcom because you can't think of two people who really seem more different they've got to run a business together um ash what did you make of these scenes today i was going to ask could you empathize with being embarrassed by a mouthy co-worker not remotely no not remotely although i do quite like the idea of inviting someone to the navara media studio and not telling them that you know i work with you or aral and then them just say why the hell are you in our office and i just meekly stand back while i've created this sort of this controversy and i just sort of stay kind of silent you're like so they've never said anything like this before um i mean i think well what do i think about one i like the fact that the spirit of peggy mitchell lives on we all love a good get out of my pub i mean it's a classic line it deserves to be passed down through the generations i do think however there was a bit much of this being made on social media by people who will do anything they can to find a reason to like kia starmer and then people who feel kind of the opposite so people who will do anything they can to like kia starmer they were like look at him cool under pressure forensic he picked up the glasses with his own hand his unloved hand and handed it to the rogue lunatic and then on the other there were people who were like that man he's got the right to sue kia starmer and his security team because the landlord has the right to eject whoever he wants it's like well yeah in real life there's also the case that frontline politicians have police protection and the aggressive behavior of the man would be the overriding concern and it probably wouldn't be seen as an unlawful use of force what i think about the whole thing is that you can't read too much into politicians walkabouts and what it is they get back from the public because it can be all manner of things these things are usually quite stage managed and when they're not it's tempting to read a lot into you know the person who manages to get through the focus groups and get through all the press officers and say something which is authentic to them and go that's what the public really think that's not always the case but i do think you can tell a lot about a politician about what their reaction is to it so quite famously when gordon brown was confronted by jillian duffy i think in rochdale this was you know about a decade ago now when she said all of these eastern european migrants something of that nature where are they all flocking from and gordon brown just sort of nodded a bit and didn't really argue back but didn't really handle it well and then off mic uh sorry not off of my off camera but on a hot mic was caught saying why did you put me with that bigoted woman now that was his undoing because it made him look inauthentic it made him look like he was angry that it hadn't been staged managed enough you know why didn't you you know why did you put me with this person why didn't you handle this for me they made him look like someone who had to disdain for ordinary people and that's what became defining of that moment i think that while kia starmas was left with i think quite thick of it imagery of ducking into the pub and you know hustling out of it i don't think there's anything that's fundamentally embarrassing about it in the same way that hints at a kind of disdain or inauthenticity what i think could be the longer term problem of this is that quite clearly this guy this pub landlord who's a covid skeptic is you know making making the most out of his time in the sun so he's going on talk radio to talk with another lockdown skeptic i think maybe what this hints at is a kind of feedback loop and an amplification between kind of radicalizing lockdown skeptic media now that's not to say that you shouldn't ask questions about you know lockdowns and you shouldn't ask questions about the government's handle of a coronavirus pandemic criticism is really good and it's really healthy but it needs to be it needs to be based on facts and data and trustworthy information and not just any old stuff which is pulled out of your arse so i do think that this hints at a kind of radicalizing feedback loop i kind of wonder if you know in these kind of small circles this guy will be a little bit of a core celeb for a bit but i don't think that it's either as damaging or as validating for Keir Starmer as his supporters or critics would like to make out if that makes me a centrist now fucking hell well it's true what they say about people who age right i liked that that that should be probably the slogan of navara media it's good to ask critical questions but they should be based on information and not just pulled out of your arse that is the ethos that we bring to independent journalism Ash Sarko, it's been an absolute pleasure speaking to you this evening thank you for letting me talk about football so much well i'm so pleased the football story broke on the day that i i have you on tiskey anyway otherwise we would have imagined if you had to get james butler to talk about this i think me and darlia would have struggled to be honest i think naren could have handled it but if it was just me and darlia we would have we would have needed to you know seek outside expertise but no it's been a pleasure and i can't wait to view your downstream interview tomorrow which i think is going to be so brilliant normally you know i'm as i say i'm not a massive football fan i do you know i understand it i used to be a football fan but i don't normally listen to podcasts about football but i'm so looking forward to your your football downstream tomorrow which i think is going to just be fantastic you know i'm excited to record it as well and i do just want to say that for people who aren't interested in football they find bits of like the culture kind of abrasive like i get that but this is a really fundamental part of our national culture it serves a social function and that is being corroded and under attack so even if you don't like football even if you like tennis i don't get tennis but i don't want it to i don't want it to go you know yeah let them have tennis i find it i don't really like the culture around tennis but let them have tennis it's i don't get the culture around tennis i don't get it all right we're gonna we are gonna wrap up there um if you've enjoyed tonight's show do make sure you hit subscribe you know we go live every monday wednesday and friday at seven p.m videos go out every day a downstream um goes out once a week um for now you've been watching tisky sour on navara media good night