 Right. Great. Hey folks, hope everyone's having a great week so far and your fall semester has been off to a great start. Welcome to our webinar. The secret is out. There you have a hypothesis with bookshelf by vital source, who's student engagement. And I'm Joe Ferrara on the VP of Revenue here at hypothesis and I'm super excited to be joined by Nick Brown and Diana Fordham Nick. I'll let you introduce yourself and then I'll let Diana make a quick intro and we'll take it away from there. Hey everybody. I'm Nick Brown VP product at vital source. I'm really excited to be here and excited about the integration between hypothesis and vital source and what faculty are starting to see as we roll that out to courses. I've been working with vital source for about 14 years always in and around our learning products and trying to find ways to deliver better outcomes to students and get them more engaged in their course materials and excited to talk about how we're working on that today. Thank you. I'm Diana forum. I'm faculty here at MSSU in Joplin, Missouri. I actually my main role is a course designer. But the love of my life is the teaching part of it and so I'm the instrument here on campus that is really trying to have faculty adaptation to hypothesis specifically with bookshelf because bookshelf is our second tier of open educational resources with our cost student cost saving initiative. So it's been a great opportunity to work with both hypothesis and vital source to deliver some quality products to our students. Amazing. Thanks again to both of you for being here. It's definitely a busy time of year. So we're going to cover a few things here on the call. First talk a little bit about the hypothesis plus bookshelf for vital source integration and Nick's going to take a quick product tour. I'm going to talk about the impact of social annotation on the text in the vital source bookshelf environment. And then we're going to open up for a really exciting conversation with Diana about her experience and some of the things that she's seen. And then at the end we are going to open it up for Q&A. So our chat's been disabled. We have a lot of folks in here but there is the Q&A function available. So feel free to ask your questions at any time. It makes sense that with the topic we're covering, we'll cover it live. Otherwise we'll make sure to cover all your fresh sheet before the end of the call. So with that, let's take it away and Nick, I'll hand it over to you to talk a little bit about our partnership. All right, great. So I'm going to share my screen here and dive straight into a demo. And going to be pretty quick here, try and get through this in just about five minutes. And you know, what I hope you'll see as we get into the demo is that for anyone who's familiar with either our bookshelf e-textbook reader, you know, kind of the most most popular reader in higher education or familiar with hypothesis tools for social annotation, I think you're going to really quickly quickly recognize what we're trying to do here and why we brought these two products together. It's a pretty, you know, simple and straightforward integration but delivers really nice impact for instructors and students. So let's start with what's the student view of an assignment when we have an instructor who's created a hypothesis assignment for a book inside a bookshelf. Here we have an assignment about the Brown versus Board of Education decision. And as we launch into bookshelf, what you're going to see is this is the entirety of our kind of standard reader experience. All of our typical features in bookshelf, you know, open up the table of contents or search the material, everything like that. But instead of the notes and highlight tools that we have in our standard version of the e-textbook reader, we have the hypothesis tools embedded. So as I work through the material here reading Chief Justice Warren's decision, I can highlight the text and make an annotation that is not feeding into, you know, vital sources, which is highlights and notes database. It's actually feeding straight into hypothesis. You know, similarly, if I'm in the vital source demo panel here over on the right, this is the hypothesis panel that you would see on a PDF or on an open website or any of the other materials that have been available for years to kind of wrap social annotation around all the features that you would expect here would work. Here we have an annotation that I made a little bit earlier, and I can click that and it'll scroll the textbook material right to that point where that annotation was made so I can dive into the discussion, right, and see what folks are talking about. Now the notes and highlights that you see here are not global, right, this isn't showing from everyone in the world who has ever read this textbook and made some annotations on top of it. But this is scoped to my my class cohort right. I mean as we get into creating assignments I'll show you how you can even scope that further if you want to divide students up into smaller study groups. So here this is a comment that I added earlier, trying to emphasize some some positive aspects of Chief Justice Warren's opinion. And you know this is me starting the conversation as an instructor, and you can see here we have a couple of test student comments right of varying degrees of quality. So the other thing that I want to jump into and show you after we look at how to create one of these assignments is how this feeds into easy grading of these comments in easy grading of the student participation in the discussion right inside of the LMS. Okay, so let's jump back to canvas. Here I am in the LMS. I'm looking at my current assignments. And what I want to do is create a new assignment here. And let's call this assignment. Great Gatsby chapter five. Of course you can add your typical notes as you would for any assignment. Highlight an interesting passage and comment on how it reflects Fitzgerald's writing style. And then wrap some points around it. And then here when I'm creating the submission type what you want to choose is external tool, use the hypothesis external tool. And for anyone who's done this before with hypothesis. Again, you'll notice a key difference. You've always been able to choose a URL or a link on Google Drive or a YouTube video as the source material for your social annotation assignment. And here we've got vital source. You'll see J store listed there who hypothesis also recently partnered with and I think they have a webinar coming up with them soon. But here we'll choose vital source. And all that you need to do as the instructor or the instructional designer is drop in a link to the right book inside of bookshelf. So let me grab that here. Paste that in here you can see it's chosen the great Gatsby. In this book, we pull information from vital source right about that textbook so they can choose the right portion of that book for the assignment that you're creating now. If you want to create a number of different assignments about different chunks of the book and assign points to each of those individually. This lets you do that. I'll choose chapter five. This is where I could choose to turn this into a group assignment right and choose different study cohorts if I want to have small groups that each have discussion with each other rather than opening it up to the entire course. So we're ready to continue. And we're ready to go. You know, I would recommend loading that tool in a new tab because like we saw earlier we're opening the entire textbook reader experience it's a, you know, a lot of content to fit inside of the LMS. But everything that you have in the LMS around the assignment kind of is available, set the attempts, change when you want to have this do and publish that out as a new assignment. I'm going to set one of these up really easy, especially if you're familiar with hypothesis. It's just another kind of content type. And then let's take a look last piece of the demo that I want to make sure people see here is what grading looks like. So in canvas here we're using the speed grader to grade those Brown versus Board of Education. Annotations that we looked at earlier and make sure I get to the right student here. And what you're going to see as you go through the grading experience. I think is really slick in terms of what the hypothesis team put together is you can see the underlying material. You can see that that students contributions to the conversation right here in the context of where you're grading it. So you might say for that first student agree great writing you're just really not contributing contributing meaningfully to that discussion. So if you're going to receive a pretty low grade, the second student who kind of meaningfully engaged with my seating the discussion and even kind of extended my thoughts in a new direction. I actually think that's pretty darn good. I'm going to give that a 10 out of 10. So that's really the core flow to understand, you know, again, hopefully if you're familiar with either of our tools, you see how this is a pretty easy way to weave them together. You can see the books straight from the LMS using LTI land in the book that you've assigned land in the right part of the book land there with the hypothesis tools enabled to have that social discussion right there in context with the book. And then it's easy for you when you're designing out that course to create those assignments, and then of course grade them in the student participation participation as you work through the term. Let me stop there and I'm going to hand it back to Joe to take a look at what we're seeing is the impact of this when we have it implemented. Great. And thanks for that demo. It's really helpful to see how easy it is to connect this to bookshelf by vital source and how you can really get students more engaged on the readings and that's really what we're all here to do. There was one question in the Q&A Nick before I dive into the case study. I just curiosity about student data and where it's hosted. And so I know hypothesis lives within the LMS via LTI and we're simply Daisy chaining over to your book so the data should pull back into the LMS is that correct. Right so the data in bookshelf. When bookshelf is operating standalone is there's a number of different data points that we collect from the e-text book users that are available to you as the instructor, or available back to the school via data feeds and analytics dashboards. We can tell you like which pages they read we can tell you whether they're reading on certain days or not we can tell you what their session time looks like. We view that as your data, right fundamentally. So we have a number of different ways that we can pass that back to you. And the story is the same here. What I was trying to make a distinction between as we were looking through that demo is just that for that annotation layer where students are making those highlights and having that discussion. It's being natively within hypothesis. So that feedback to the LMS as well, just from their side of the equation, rather than ours. Yeah, and just on the hypothesis side as well because this lives in the learning management system your account management team would be able to share a lot of the annotation data specifically in terms of your students levels of engagement. It's easy to hook it up to the grading platform as Nick just demonstrated and speed grader in Canvas. We've got that native grading integration across all the major LMS. All right, so we will dive back in. All right, and so now you should be able to see. So we have a few case studies that we've run over the last 12 to 18 months or so just focusing on how the integration and the partnership between bookshelf by vital source and hypothesis can really improve student outcomes. And so there are two different case studies that we want to speak about today. First is the University of Texas at often in a general physics course. And Nick is going to dive into some of the specifics, but our key result that we saw was that in the section that was testing hypothesis at UT Austin in the spring. The median number of days that students actually engage with the textbook is nearly three times higher than section that didn't have social annotation as part of the curriculum. We've seen this at a variety of other schools. Also at University of Minnesota between cities were four sections of the lower level communication study course integrated hypothesis and the median number of days that students engage with the text material is 10. That was almost 2.5 times the amount of engagement with your traditional read and discuss on the discussion board. And this is valuable for a few reasons, but Nick, I will let you talk more about it because this is something you worked really closely with. So, so before I talk about this specific chart, I want to put, you know, student engagement with their text book in a little bit of context for everyone. This is probably old news right for anyone who has assigned textbooks but there's been some really interesting data and you know data sharing recently around what student engagement with their assigned readings in textbooks really looks like. This is one of the fundamental advantages of digital overprint is that we at least have that visibility we can tell the story we can understand what's happening with that assigned material. And one great way to put this into context for you was a really nice paper that came out earlier this year at the learning analytics and knowledge conference was called instructional strategies and student textbook reading. And it's all about saying, what does student textbook reading look like, and as an instructor what can you do to drive the kind of reading behavior that you care about. And the headline takeaway from this paper and I'm happy to drop a link in the chat in a minute was that if average across everyone that participated I think it was 86 instructors across four different universities. And 37% of the assigned pages of reading that that instructors assigned actually got read by students, only 37%. They then divided this the instructors into two different cohorts right, did they use some strategies to try and drive behavior and drive that reading behavior, or did they just kind of toss it on the syllabus and see what happened. So among the cohort where they didn't use any of these instructional strategies, things like reading quizzes or journals or clicker questions at the start of class that you promise students are coming straight from the book. Those are the kind of strategies they looked like looked at. If you didn't use any strategies, just 15% of the pages got read and one in 10 students read half of their assigned reading. So that's the landscape right that's the reality of what's out there right now in terms of student engagement with their textbook content. And if what you really care about is getting your students to read and Professor Pereira and the course we're about to look at here really did care about it right. He didn't just care about, you know, students going in sourcing information from YouTube he spoke to us about. No, I actually want them to get those technical details from the book I assigned. I signed it for a reason I was careful about it. I think it's a great way for them to get the instruction. I really want to hold them accountable to reading. So that's what we're trying to do here right is we're trying to give you guys a very effective instructional strategy that we see driving really material change in terms of how students engage with their textbook. And, you know, I have a comparison course here to a different section of introductory physics at UT Austin. And it's not to slam on that particular course right that's the broader context right across all of those courses that got studied the average student read 37% of what they were supposed to. So let's let's talk about the specific chart and the impact of the integration with hypothesis. So what we're looking at here is, you know, on the x axis, the number of days in the term that a student studied, really simple. We're not 30 textbook reader at all. You know, we're not driving into session time we're not asking are they using every feature in the reader, we're asking them, look, did they crack open the book, or not, right. Pretty, pretty low bar. And what we're looking at on the y axis is how many students in that course used their textbook on that number of days. The median number of days in Professor Perez course was about 35 days in the semester that a student opened up their textbook and engage with the material. It's a really great outcome and it's a really dramatic improvement from what we see in kind of a peer course section where they weren't implementing as effective in an instructional strategy. If you want to flip to the next slide Joe we can look at some of the numbers here. I mentioned that in the sections using hypothesis wrapped around the bookshelf textbook content. We had a median of 35 days and average of 34 in a couple of different comparison sections of the same course at the same university. You can see those numbers just look a little bit more typical they look a little bit more like what we hear about in that paper. At the bottom we're looking at some of the hard numbers about the other case that Joe mentioned at University of Minnesota. In the previous study that was just dropped in the chat, you'll see some great quotes from that instructor as well about her experience and kind of what she's hearing from her students that go beyond just the numbers and a little bit more into kind of the softer impact that she's seeing in her students participation in the course. I think back over to you Joe to talk a little bit about that kind of student impact that they're seeing. Absolutely. And I can say, I just had a conversation with one of our customers earlier this week, and it's especially for first year university students, a lot of them are coming from a place where they're used to your typical take notes and then notebook and use a paper book. Students haven't really been trained on how to work with the books and so finding different engaging ways, like social annotation like clickers helps them feel like they are more part of the conversation and that really does drive engagement. What we've seen from all the case studies is that there are four major outcomes that really shown through thrust. First, students who read more understood the course material a little bit more deeply. And I think that's pretty obvious to all of us here, when you're really engaging with the content and able to do so directly over the reading as opposed to reading here and coming into, for example, a discussion board on another screen, you can actually start to connect the dots and find more relevant information. We also really understood the purpose of the reading because they were seeing what their peers were talking about. It was helping them understand a little bit more that they may have missed had they just been really reading them a digital world on their own. And both of these things really tied into improved critical writing and thinking skills so students are having more in depth conversations. They're not just saying that's a great post like the first demo student that Nick showed us. We're having conversations in the margin of the page that are actually driving outcomes in the course and allowing the learning to take on more meeting. It's not simply I'm doing this because it's my assignment, but I'm doing it because there's a bigger conversation that we're going to have throughout the course, and tying that course material directly to the content of the course itself. But don't take it from us and we work here we're really proud of the products that we have we're really excited to have Diana here on the call with us who's been a powerful use user of hypothesis for the last few years, both in instructional design and as an instructor. So we want to talk to her and first you don't understand versus how did you make the connection between vital source bookshelf and hypothesis tool and what were you trying to accomplish. This, so everyone knows in 2018, I was probably one of the first professors on campus to use vital source on because I'm the head of the OER committee and so that student cost saving initiative, kind of led me in that direction, I have to say that we probably had 55% of our faculty use vital source. So when hypothesis came around, and I was saw the opportunity to be able to have some more meaningful engaging activities with my students in my classes. It was a perfect marriage, and it's been a wonderful journey. I think we've been with hypothesis hypothesis is our fourth or fifth semester. There is a huge increase and I have to tell you as an instructor. It's been phenomenal. And here's two of the reasons why this summer I taught an eight week Western civilization course and it was an online course. And I'm an online instructor my PhD work was instructional design for online instruction, and I don't particularly care to teach online. There are some things that have changed that in the last since COVID there's some things that have been powerful to exchange to increase my desire to do that. But I can tell you this hypothesis tool with my text reading from the vital source book. I had a great distribution that I have not experienced in an online class ever. All of my students, I think I only had one person fail and there were 30 students. Most of them got A's B's or C's and 74% of those that got a C or higher had 100% and their activities with hypothesis with our textbook. And so that's phenomenal to me and that's the real study here and written a white paper about several things but hypothesis being one of them, because here is what I'm getting from students. And when we have our discussions I tried to synchronize on my learning session this summer and so we would get together and we would discuss things that they knew that we were discuss and I would say I have heard more this last summer of in the textbook. Here's what I found out the textbook, and this is my takeaway. I've never heard that I have never heard a discussion raise your hands and say hey this is for them. And the textbook said, I got that a lot the summer and so it's been really interesting to see their take on what they're reading and I have them. And my assignments are pretty general read this chapter in the textbook and I need you to take annotate four chapters that relate to what we have already discussed in our yellow dig discussions, and it has to be related. And that's how they read their chapters because I'm not expecting my students who are not history majors to read these textbooks from front to end, but I am expecting them to go through skim it, and then you make the connections. And that's where I've been successful. And this is how I teach my faculty as well. And at Missouri Southern. This is what has been super super successful. And so when you first made the connection between vital source and hypothesis. Were you looking to replace something you were doing already over these additive assignments. Um, in my own courses I can only say for my own courses the one I designed, we were trying to make more engaging learning environments. So we were trying to replace the way we've done things forever. You know this paradigm of higher education that dates back to the 70s. We were trying to make that change and as the digital learning in this department. That's our main focus let's start engaging the students in the learning environments both on campus and online. That's why we selected that. And particularly with, you know, a non majors summer course that's a lot of students might feel that's pretty low stakes that only have one student who didn't get a passing grade was pleasant surprise for everyone. What kind of feedback did you get from students with the way that they were working together as type of great ratings I mean of course I always have the one distractor and it's always somebody who doesn't like the topic but most everyone else hypothesis came up on their evaluations that they've never read text like that. You know we've always required them to buy texts sometimes the tune of $150 $160 and they never open it. And so this cost saving initiative student cost saving initiative was really to look at the data and how we were using our text so I'm getting feedback and that's been five years that we changed vital source to at least have it on where they can access it if the doctors office they can get it on their phone and everything. So what we're hearing now with hypothesis and what I hear from faculty as well, but they're getting engagement with the students. So the and the feedback has been across campus I mean I probably have had a negative I don't like I get negative all the time I don't like on line textbooks. But that's nothing to do with anything except for preference I'd rather have a book in my hand but how grateful I am that I can get on it if I'm at the doctor's office and I can read, you know, an assignment or whatever so I have a question from the audience. Have you run into trouble with students commenting inappropriately with the texts and if so how much moderating do you feel that you have to do if the students can see each other's comments. Okay so I have a code of ethics and our department has created a code of ethics for online engagement and it's not just hypothesis, you know it's everything that we do. I do monitor now and, you know, we've been using these backpack tools for three years now, and I've never had to kick anyone off but they know that I will delete their posts. And it's not going to be publicly I'm going to delete it or I'm going to delete their annotation. And but they know that I'm in there and I'm watching I have not experienced that. It's great to know, especially in a time when everybody feels like they can say whatever they want or whatever they want. Well I think what's what alerts them that we have an ethics code. And that ethics code is very plain simple that you can't do this this and this and this will. And that'll be zero for that assignment I'm never can't come out of class but it's going to be zero for the assignment. And my hypothesis work is 10% of my grade. It's a whole letter grade so. So if you don't participate you're not going to get that. That is correct. And so one question I was going to ask is, I mean the. The goal of kind of creating more engaging and interactive assignments absolutely makes a lot of sense we're hearing that from a lot of other customers as well and I think this is a great way to check that box. Are you layering that kind of hypothesis engagement only into the textbook or you also assigning other materials with that kind of engagement layer in the same course or our students studying with this on top of everything or how do you think about that as you build out a course. Okay, so when I build out my courses and we build the courses and by the way thank you hypothesis for adding YouTube and that you can annotate videos. Amazing. You can use that not necessarily as a textbook reading but I am using hypothesis as several other things I mean like that I'm teaching an honor school class right now we're teaching them how to live college life. Great YouTube, Ted talk video. So put that in there, they had to annotate the tech, the tech talk. That wasn't part of their 10% of their reading, but those type of engaging activities. And that springboard for what we were going to discuss Thursday when we came back to class, you had there were 10 things that this Ted talk was suggesting you had to tell me for. And you have to tell me why you selected those four that you're going to do in your college experience so those type of things those type of activities as springboards, you know, it's a great way to meet students where they are to some degree right that they're going to go to YouTube, you know they might say I don't want to read this assignment I'm going to Google it and see if I can find someone explaining it a different way. I like how you're kind of brokering that right. Yeah, here's a Ted talk this is a maybe a more engaging way than, you know, assigning an old $150 print textbook, but I'm going to wrap this assignment around it to tee you up to be successful. And one of the things that we are trying to do is AI resistant assessment and hypothesis is a perfect tool for that because now I use blackboard it's different than canvas, and there are some other things that you can do when you're in blackboard, but I can go in and create a group set and then I can make each individual students own group. And so if I were doing an AI resistant assessment. They can't see each other's annotations either, but I'm still assessing them on their understanding of whatever text whether it be a J store text, whether it be a website, no matter what it is. And so we have found that very useful with AI resistant assessment as well. So the layering the leveraging. And so, putting these two tools together really allows you to get a more meaningful experience across across the reading and across multiple different types of content sources as you mentioned we've got our video annotations and then make it mentioned things like J store. One thing we're hearing a lot about especially now is multimodal I do dl and so how do you focus on that in your course. See, and that that incorporated incorporate so much more than just hypothesis, but yeah there's some resistance to faculty not from students on that. Right, because the students, especially if you set it up correctly. Those are links to the assignments it's not. It's designing with it that is a little bit cumbersome, because you have as an instructional designer on the instructor you have to know all the ins and outs. And hypothesis in that sense is a little bit more. Not taxing but requiring because you have to in blackboard it is you know you have to set up a separate folder and then you have to have the permission set correctly. And since we're experiments experimenting with collaborative learning. It's very across Missouri, we're running into issues like that. So it's, it's not, it's intuitive. If you know what's going on but it does take some time. But on the student side, I, you know, it just a click of a link, you know, as the faculty side it's been a little bit more, but we're here, and I can honestly say we're here 24 seven because I answer calls outside of my office hours because usually professors are having issues like this are issues with connecting or whatever I'm, I'm there for him to troubleshoot. One of the things that we heard from Professor Pereira about his course at UT Austin, just kind of dovetailing off the idea of how easy can we make it right for the faculty to set up and easy for the student to access. We've been using bookshelf for some time, we have a partnership with UT Austin, and he really cared about driving you textbook engagement and he tried a few different things to do that, right, that weren't as integrated and weren't as seamless as what we do in our partnership with hypothesis near the best example was the semester before he piloted with us. He, you know, did a bunch of work right he spun up a dedicated discussion board using a different product, and the assignment that he gave his students and assigned a similar portion of the grade to it was go into your textbook inside a bookshelf, take a screenshot, paste it into this discussion board and then do your, you know, mandatory assignments over there, reflecting on the material that the same kinds of assignments as what you put together. And what they saw was actually really good numbers if you look at student engagement, it worked right because it was part of the grade it, you know, you put that grade carrot or stick out there, you're going to see students move for it. And we've seen similar results across a number of different things. As long as you're assigning that five to 10% of the grade, you know, something in that area, you're going to see students motivated. But they hated it the students hated it the feedback they gave at the end of the term was that it was clunky and cumbersome and hard to do. And he and his TAs hated it too because it was just so hard to great. Right they had to go into that separate product they had to read all those threads it wasn't integrated into the LMS. They had to cook those numbers and get them back into the gradebook. It was just a really big hassle for the students and the instructors. So it's an interesting example where, if you look at just the engagement if you look at just did just do the reading, you know, job done right it succeeded. But if you look at the student experience and the instructor experience, those kind of decoupled products, they just, they missed the mark right they needed something more like what we have here, where it's student clicks the link and they're in right as simple as that. We have a few more questions from the audience. First one is focused on OER but I'd like to broaden this out a bit more so in your role as you know an instructional designer course designer. What are the key challenges that you have to overcome when you're encouraging your faculty to try new things as you said a lot of the way that we learned has been the same since the 70s and something happened a few years ago we had to start really reimagined. So what do you see on your side. The consistent message. I think we started our OER journey in 2018. And of course, our OER committee gave three different examples or three different layers of what we would consider OER to OER, you know, YouTube open stacks, you know, those type of opportunities that most of our instructors had to be informed of what OER is. I bet you if I were to take a survey I probably would get 90% today that would know what our era was but in 2018. What's OER. So you know we can assume that faculty know that. So when we had examples and we really push the OER that was out there gave them, you know how you can use YouTube as an OER but you know that those type of things we started getting more and more people on board and over the five years. Like I said, we've got a good portion of our campus that are using OER because we stay consistent. It's not going away. We're down in enrollment at Missouri Southern, and we're trying everything to make sure our students have the experience here and it's cheaper than everyone else in the area and so one of the big things on that was textbooks. And so, you know, and it is that student cost saving initiative. You know, and we're actually going to start doing our courses when they search for let's say a Western Civ class, and they can go to my class and say zero costs for textbooks but if they go to, let's say Dr. Smith's class 157 for textbooks. That's not a popular idea, by the way, because that puts competition but we're kind of desperate right now because enrollment's down. And so that has been an impetus to get people, oh, I can't have her teaching at zero costs and me 157 that's going to be a detriment right for my enrollment so you saw more people seeking. What is this OER and how can I use it. So one thing that's really interesting for me to hear is just kind of how you frame vital source within that OER initiative and conversation. I think that the subject of affordability for students is a huge part of what we do. And that includes things like delivering OER and we actually have a really exciting partnership with open stacks that we're working on that's that should be coming out soon. But it also means making those textbooks from those front list publishers those front list titles a lot more affordable right so when I hear 157 dollars it stings my ears right that's just a painful number for a student. What we're able to do and it sounds like we're having a good impact on your campus is save students 70 80% off of those numbers by delivering those textbooks digitally integrated in the LMS, often provided for the students on the first day of class and our typical price point in that model is something like $35 which is just much, much more palatable and it's not it's not all the way to zero right it might not be the same as true OER. But trying to meet the students where they are and help them right help them get what they need for a much, much lower price point. So you know it's, I love how you're putting edits. Yeah it might be a Pearson textbook but we're thinking about it on this continuum of affordability, where it's still a win compared to 157 dollars right. It's really interesting framing to here. I know it too. We're not students are all in for saving money, it was convincing the faculty that they needed to be able to end for saving them money and instant access. And it's part of the, when we first started remember, even if you went to Norton or if you went to Pearson. I had was a access code and you had to go to this bookstore and you had to buy the access code nine times out of 10. There was a problem. You know, and so you're a week two and four students can get textbooks instant access means, and on our campus, their already it's part of their tuition costs. And so they come into the class. It is there. The book is there for day one. And that's made all the difference for faculty because I can't tell you how frustrating it is. When students aren't buying their textbooks and or they can't get into the access code and it just was a nightmare. So the instant access that first day access has been part of our selling to the faculty that they have this is okay. This is good. It's so cast forward a little bit for me. You know, obviously instant access affordability one click access from the LMS those we've seen that across many many institutions be great ways to kind of overcome those objections and say, make the move to digital it's going to benefit your students. How do you think about something like the hypothesis integration as another as another lever to overcome those objections do you think that could get some stragglers on board when they see the great impact that you talked about or I love the comment that you made earlier of my students that never said oh well the textbook says, but seems like something that we want to hear right. So, you know, help me understand like, can we use that to overcome those hurdles. We possibly could. Again, it's going to be selling the faculty now. If you look at what we've done since we brought hypothesis on board as part of our digital backpack. Our users are our devout users and it's spreading. I mean, as I go into different divisions and departments and sell our backpack tools and hypothesis is one of those. You see people that are really trying this because gosh this makes sense. And they have the same problem I do who's reading history textbooks. I'm the historian and I don't read the textbooks right. You know, it's, it is a way of engagement and it's a way that most faculty once they see it if they'll take the time. The only drawback we have is that it takes some training it's not. It's not intuitive for faculty, you do need somebody to show you and you guys offered great training webinars you know and we have instant access to their it and your it when we have a problem they're right Johnny on the spot they're they're fixing our problem. So, it's been, it's been again just drilling in and being consistent with the message. There's another annotating software out there as perusal, I shouldn't have said it sorry but the only reason and we were on that before but it's not an overlay within blackboard, and the students information is out there because they have to sign up for another tool and see we're a little bit iffy about that. So the fact that hypothesis fits right in our LMS and our students data our students name are not compromised at all because it's an overlay within the system is a selling point for a lot of our faculty. We hear that a lot just the general interoperability between not just your learning management system but now provisioning the bookstore so if you have first day access or equitable access the student gets the materials that they need on the first day. I can tell you when I was in school 100 years ago, I would have loved to have not waited in line for a book I wasn't going to ever actually have to open because there wasn't a tool like this. But there was a question in the chat that I want to circle back on because they mentioned specifically advertising a zero cost textbook versus a low cost educational resource and I think content in general somebody has to work to put it together and it's never all going to be free. But there is a way to make it more equitable. How do you really differentiate between the different tiers and no cost low costs in general. Okay, so we are true we are was zero cost and and you can do that Rice University you can download their book you can split it up into PDFs and you know the chapters and that's an awesome. And so zero cost was true we are and to find that, you know, preach that on the next level was anything below $50 was low cost we are. And again, we did that level and the third cost is anything above $50, but below 100, you know, and so that's how we did it, but we had to do that as the only our community was part of our strategic plan in 2018. And to get that out we had a 968% increase in the first two years. When we defined it that way and able to tell the state to tell the administration, our second strategic plan just started and we are still going to continue defining oh we are and using hypothesis and those type of things to engage. The student low cost initiative. So that's how we defined it, and it was important that we do that because most of our faculty fit in somewhere. And if they were at the under 100, hey, we can get it down under 50. And if you're under 50, hey, look at what we found open stacks has Rice University has this great biology book, you know whatever it is. So that's how we did it. One thing just sharing a, you know, sounds like a really successful, you know, roll out at 900% improvement is wild. Just sharing that we've seen a very similar strategy applied at a lot of different universities and it's been similarly effective in many places. I've heard that $40 4550 somewhere in that range often ends up being the threshold below which we say, yeah, it's not all the way zero it's not true zero cost it's maybe not not we are. But you're getting the learning materials that you want to get to your students for a very reasonable price much much more than that new $200 print textbook that you used to assign a few years ago. So it's a really nice way to kind of bridge that gap between. Oh no, it's going to be a lot of work for me to get all the way to we are I have to find all new materials I have to completely change my teaching and curriculum. Well, maybe there's a stepping stone that helps you save students a lot of money in the meantime, and just land in that range right under 50 under 40. That's a really meaningful way to help students, even if you're not completely ready to change all the materials that you assign. And you know those numbers are fantastic kudos on that. Yeah, it was very successful. I think, especially in public institutions costs cost savings and affordability is one of the number one reasons students and their families are so nervous about higher education should look first place. So they're definitely lucky to have folks like you in their order. We did one last question in the Q&A, and I'm going to try to paraphrase it because I think I understand that so at the end of each course they typically will have your reviews which I think you mentioned you know the student who hates the text etc. But how one thing that they want to understand is how well the instructor the material and the assignments fostered a commitment in life. How do you think something like social annotation can fit into that where students have to really remember a lot of the knowledge that they're gained and move into their careers for example, and they'll be on the classroom. How do you think this can help students, not just live up to the code of ethics and get good grades but just become better thinkers and readers with raw. I think the biggest thing is engagement, you know, I think that when we fail sometimes as educators and me one of them as well if I am not focused on how do I pull them in. And so, you know, for the 25, 30 years that I've taught that I really do. My class is intensive it's writing intensive. And what I get feedback from my students is that everything links, you know my first module if we're talking about early civilizations, everything is going to link including the reading. I think the textbook will touch on the textbook they'll touch on it more, but everything is connected and I get that a lot that you know there was no fluff work. You know that there was you were focused everything that you did focused on an outcome, which they knew what the outcome was going to be you're going to understand the Egyptian civilization and the role of women in early Egypt, you know whatever it was. And so I connected that, and I see more of that going on across campus as I work with faculty as well that, you know that their students are starting to say this was fluff work, I'm tired of doing fluff work, meaning nothing that was is connected and so I think that does that answer the question that that's how make sure everything's connected. Yeah, I think it answers the question the way I understood it, and something that we see even internally as tools like this, as you're saying it spreads through your faculty, we're seeing it actually spread at the student level I had hypothesis and my course last year, it was really helpful for me and they're sort of here pressuring their instructor to adopt these additional tools. And so I think, especially the way we consume digital content has changed a lot in the last five 10 and 20 years, it's going to continue and just being able to, you know, tie the things that you're reading to something in their life and something that's a skill need about. The only thing if I can add to that is that you know I record my lectures, you know from my desk and I keep it at 15 minutes because I'm checking it. I'll put it on YouTube, and now I can have them annotate my lectures with the new tool. And that is cool, because you know because they they see me that I usually record for my home office and so there's some things going on there but they and I get feedback on that. I'll annotate what I said and sometimes they'll say oh that was a cute cat that ran across you know whatever, you know, kind of ridiculous but engagement again and that's what I'm talking about it's engagement so I was grateful that YouTube was one of the things we can annotate. I think that's a huge huge plus. We're super excited about it and I'm really excited to hear that you're already asking students to annotate the lectures because the statistics are out there also third of students whether they're supposed to or not never physically show up to class and you're missing a lot and so to have ways to engage. Whether we like it or not we need to open up those different avenues so who knows to you for getting that out there and getting people to start annotating those transcripts simply. It's been super helpful and I know we're running up on time I do have one last question for you Diana. There's a lot of tools out there is a lot of tech and faculty students and even us will probably all stick about a new tools. What would you say to someone that isn't quite sure about social annotation to tell him this is going to be a benefit and not just extra work to add. Well I'd say the, as far as the extra work you might have to put a little bit in on the front end to do this and to learn it. But after that it stays constant because my Western civ although I might add different readings the textbook for at least the next two years are going to stay the same so putting that work up front. But again if your goal is to engage students and learning. I don't know of any other way with the text or with the readings or with the even websites I have them annotate websites. I don't know of any other way to do that. And I can't take the time out of, especially an online class I can't spend an hour and a half in a lecture to go over that I can spend 20 15 to 20 minutes max, in my lecture or whatever. I'm engaging in there but other activities need to frame and to bring together my end goal for each module. And so I don't know of any other way I thought we do it before. It kind of seems oh my gosh what did I do before but I wanted to, that was one of the, you know, painful takeaways from that that paper I mentioned earlier, you know they looked at 15 or so different strategies for driving effective engagement with textbooks, and most of them didn't work, right. So I feel that pain and, you know, glad we found something that that clicks with you and your students. Yeah I see that Joe asked for the request for the white paper is he talking about next white paper my white paper. I think the white paper earlier in the call I got a message direct just asking if that's something that's ready for sure with you please note that your hypothesis is part of it it's not all on hypothesis you want me to do that because that's all of our backpack. Yeah, I mean, digital learning tools on the backpack. I think that's, that's the direction a lot of folks are going in now is bundling the tools that you're going to use so it might really inspire some folks that are on this call and then can make it to really embrace digital transformation so. Yeah, I'd certainly love to see it. But it's a way to and again the whole thing is engaging students in an online learning or face to face learning environment a true learning environment not a stage on the stage, but a guide on the side type. Yeah, learning environment. Okay. Right and we'll be sure to, if you're okay but we'll be sure to include that in the follow up email as well. So, and I'm just to wrap things up. Thank you both so much. We will be sharing the recording out of margin all attendees and for those of you who weren't able to make it. But if you do want to learn more about the case studies or get started with social annotation feel free to reach out to the team here. And so we do integrate with all of our shared customers across the vital source independent school network. And so there is no additional costs for our partner institutions to use these connections currently, but if you're not a hypothesis subscriber we do have an amazing offer for first time users for our screen starter promotion. It's discounted pricing with unlimited access to all students on campus back into workshops from our amazing customer success and account management teams and the opportunity for some professional developing credit with Hypothesis Academy for folks who sign on for October 34 for the spring. We'll actually turn you on early this fall and give you an extra few months to get active, visible and social. So that is all we've got for today. So again, Nick, Diana, one of the thank you both for joining us today. And for all the work that you both put in with Hypothesis over the last few years, glad to see that students, faculty and everyone else are benefiting. And I really want to wish you both a great rest of the week and have a fabulous weekend. Thank you very much. Have a great one. Thanks everyone.